0:00

Welcome to the Huberman Lab

0:02

Podcast, where we discuss science

0:04

and science-based tools for everyday

0:07

life. I'm Andrew Huberman and

0:09

I'm a professor of

0:11

neurobiology and ophthalmology at

0:13

Stanford School of Medicine.

0:15

My guest today is Dr. Richard Schwartz.

0:17

Dr. Richard Schwartz is the founder of

0:19

Internal Family Systems Therapy, which is a

0:22

unique form of therapy that's less centered

0:24

on your relationship to other people, but

0:26

instead focuses mainly on identifying the parts

0:29

of yourself and your personality that tend

0:31

to emerge in different situations and that

0:33

tend to create anxiety, resent, or depression.

0:36

Another key feature of internal family systems

0:38

therapy is that it's not just focused

0:40

on fixing challenges within us, it also

0:43

teaches you how to grow your confidence,

0:45

openness, and compassion. Now today's episode is

0:47

different than any other episode of the

0:49

podcast that we've done before, and that's

0:51

for two reasons. First, Dr. Schwartz takes

0:53

me through a brief session of IFS

0:55

therapy, so you can see exactly what

0:57

it looks like in practice, and then

0:59

he takes you, the listener, through it

1:01

as well. So as you'll soon observe

1:03

end experience, internal family systems therapy allows

1:05

you to work through challenging sticking points,

1:07

basically the parts or feelings within you

1:09

that you don't like to have, and

1:11

then it shows you how to convert

1:13

those feelings into more functional aspects of

1:15

yourself. So as you'll soon see, internal

1:17

family systems therapy is both super interesting

1:19

and it's an incredibly empowering practice. It's

1:22

also a form of therapy that's now

1:24

been studied and for which there's a

1:26

lot of peer-reviewed science to support its

1:28

efficacy. By the end of today's episode,

1:30

Dr. Dick Schwartz will have shown you

1:32

that a lot of the negative reactions

1:35

that we tend to have with different

1:37

people and things tend to originate from

1:39

a few basic patterns that once we

1:41

understand, we can really transmute into more

1:43

positive responses. It's a really interesting practice.

1:45

It's one that you can apply today

1:48

during the episode and that you can

1:50

return to in order to apply going

1:52

forward in your life. Before we begin,

1:54

I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

1:56

is separate from my teaching and research

1:59

roles at Stanford. It is however part

2:01

of my desire and effort to bring

2:03

zero-cost to consumer information about science and

2:05

science-related tools to the general public. In

2:08

keeping with that theme, this episode does

2:10

include sponsors. And now for my discussion

2:12

with Dr. Richard Schwartz. Dr.

2:14

Dick Schwartz, welcome. Thank you, Andrew.

2:16

It's delightful to be with you.

2:19

I've heard so much about you

2:21

and your work and internal family

2:23

systems models. I've had the opportunity

2:25

to do a little bit of that

2:27

work. To be honest, I don't know

2:29

whether or not the person I did

2:32

that work with was formally trained in

2:34

it. So I'd like to start off

2:36

by just asking you what is internal

2:38

family systems and what are the different

2:40

components? And as we do that,

2:42

I'm sure people are going to

2:44

be thinking about these various components

2:47

for their own life and the

2:49

people in their lives. Right. Well,

2:51

originally I developed it as a

2:53

form of psychotherapy, which is probably

2:56

the way it's used most now,

2:58

but... It's also become a kind

3:00

of life practice and just a

3:02

paradigm for understanding the

3:05

human mind and it's

3:07

an alternative to the

3:09

culture's paradigm. So that's saying

3:12

a lot and it's been quite

3:14

a journey. I know Freudian

3:16

psychoanalysis, I

3:18

know of any number

3:20

of different branches of

3:22

psychology that have a

3:24

clinical... slant to them,

3:26

there's cognitive behavioral therapy.

3:28

What are the core

3:30

components of internal family

3:33

systems? Yeah, so one

3:35

basic assumption is that the

3:37

mind isn't unitary, that actually

3:40

it's, we're all multiple personalities,

3:42

not in a diagnostic sense,

3:44

but we all have these what

3:46

I call parts, other systems call

3:49

sub personalities, ego states, things like

3:51

that. and that it's the natural

3:53

state of the mind to be

3:56

that way, that we're born with them

3:58

because they're all very... and

4:00

have qualities and resources

4:03

to help us survive

4:05

and thrive. But trauma

4:08

and what's called attachment

4:11

injuries and the

4:13

slings and arrows we

4:15

suffer force these little

4:18

naturally valuable parts

4:21

into roles that

4:23

can be destructive.

4:25

Often they don't like

4:27

it. because they're frozen often

4:29

in time and during the

4:31

trauma and they live as

4:33

if it's still happening. They're

4:36

in these protective

4:38

roles that can be

4:40

quite extreme and interfere

4:42

in your life. And yeah, so I

4:44

just stumbled on the phenomena 40,

4:46

now I think it's 41

4:49

years ago and it's been, you

4:51

know, amazing ride. So at the

4:53

time were you already practicing as

4:56

a clinical psychologist? I actually have

4:58

a PhD in Maryland Family Therapy,

5:00

so I was part of the

5:03

movement in family therapy away from

5:05

intra-psychic work. There was a polarization

5:07

and we thought we could reorganize families

5:10

and heal all these symptoms just

5:12

by doing that. We didn't have

5:14

to muck around in the inner

5:16

world. And I went to prove

5:18

that, and this was about 1983.

5:20

by getting a group of bulimic

5:22

kids together in their families and

5:24

trying to reorganize the families just

5:26

the way the book said to and

5:29

failed. The kids didn't realize they'd

5:31

been cured and they kept binging

5:33

and purging. So out of frustration

5:36

I began asking why and they

5:38

started talking this language of parts

5:40

and they would say some version of

5:43

when something happens bad happens in my

5:45

life. It triggers this critic who's calling

5:47

me all kinds of names inside, and

5:49

that goes right to the heart of

5:52

a part that feels empty and alone

5:54

and worthless. And that's so distressing the

5:56

feel that the binge part comes in

5:58

and takes me... out, takes me away

6:01

from all that pain, but the critic

6:03

comes in and attacks me for the

6:05

binge, and then the criticism

6:08

goes right to the heart of that

6:10

worthless part. So to me as a

6:12

family therapist, this sounded like

6:14

what I'd been studying in

6:16

external families, these circular

6:19

sequences of interaction, and

6:21

so I just got curious and

6:23

just started to explore. Are these

6:25

different parts that exist within each

6:28

and all of us? Are they

6:30

represented by a clear

6:32

and distinct voice from

6:34

the other? Or do

6:36

people typically experience them

6:39

as just the self,

6:41

like my inner critic? You'll

6:43

give us the other names

6:45

and titles. Or is

6:47

this happening typically below

6:49

people's conscious awareness? Some

6:52

of both. So most

6:54

people are aware of their

6:56

critics. Other times you're not

6:58

aware of these parts we call

7:00

exiles that you've locked away because

7:02

you didn't want to feel their

7:04

feelings. They're stuck in these bad

7:06

trauma scenes. And to survive in

7:08

your life, you had to push

7:10

them away. And so with those

7:12

parts, a lot of people aren't

7:15

really consciously aware of them

7:17

until these protected parts give space

7:19

and open the door to the

7:22

exiles. I'd like to take a quick break

7:24

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to go into what the various

9:48

protector roles or titles are labels,

9:50

excuse me, and the exiles. Before

9:52

we do that, since you brought up

9:54

the topic of trauma, this is a

9:56

topic that I think many, many people

9:59

are interested in. I'm just curious,

10:01

you know, how do you define

10:03

a trauma? And why do you think

10:05

it is that traumas tend to

10:08

lock us into a state that

10:10

was representative of

10:12

an earlier time? Why is it

10:14

that it's so linked to this

10:16

thing of time perception? Yeah, the

10:19

why question I can't totally

10:21

answer, but it definitely is.

10:23

And for me, traumas aren't

10:26

necessarily traumatizing. So... something bad

10:28

happens to you, and if

10:31

you can access what you

10:33

and Martha Beck were calling

10:35

the self, capitalized, and you go

10:38

to the part of you that

10:40

got hurt by what happened, instead

10:42

of pushing it away and locking

10:44

it up, and you embrace it,

10:47

and you bring it closer to

10:49

you, which means going to your suffering,

10:51

which is counter to which most of

10:53

us try to do. But if you

10:56

were to do that, and you

10:58

could help it unload the feelings

11:00

it got from the trauma, then

11:02

you're not traumatized. What's

11:05

traumatizing is something bad

11:07

happens. These more vulnerable

11:09

parts of us, the most sensitive

11:11

parts of us, get hurt or

11:14

feel worthless because of what happened

11:16

or get terrified. And then we

11:18

lock them away because we don't

11:20

want to feel that feeling anymore.

11:23

And everybody around us tells us

11:25

to just let it go, just

11:27

move on, don't look back. And

11:29

so we wind up exiling our

11:32

most sensitive parts simply because

11:34

they got hurt. And then when

11:36

you have a lot of exiles, you

11:38

feel more delicate, the world

11:41

seems more dangerous, because anything

11:43

could trigger that. And when they

11:46

get triggered, they'll blow up,

11:48

they'll take over. So it's like

11:50

these claims of raw motion come

11:52

popping out. So other parts

11:54

are forced into these

11:56

manager roles or these

11:58

protective roles. And some of

12:00

them are trying to manage your life

12:03

so that you don't get triggered

12:05

anymore, so that, for example,

12:07

nobody gets close enough to you

12:09

to trigger any of that, or so

12:11

you look really good, so you don't

12:13

get rejected, or perform at a

12:16

really high level to counter the

12:18

worthlessness. Many of those become

12:20

the critics, because in their effort to

12:22

try to get you look good, they're

12:24

yelling at you to try and behave

12:26

and do what they want, so you

12:29

look better. And then there are other

12:31

what we call manager protectors that

12:33

are, for some people, particularly

12:36

women, have these massive caretaking

12:38

parts that don't let them take care

12:40

of themselves and take care of everybody

12:43

else. And so I could go on

12:45

and on. There's a lot of common

12:47

manager roles. And I want to

12:49

make clear as I'm talking about this,

12:51

that these are not the essence of

12:54

the parts. And that's a big mistake

12:56

that most of the field is made,

12:58

is to assume. The critic is just

13:01

an internalized critical parent voice instead of

13:03

listening to it and hearing

13:05

that it's desperately trying to protect

13:07

you. So none of these are

13:09

what they seem. That's the role

13:11

they've been forced into. And the

13:13

analogy again is to an external

13:15

family like kids and

13:17

dysfunctional families are forced into these

13:19

extreme roles that aren't who they

13:22

are. It's the role they got

13:24

forced into by the dynamics of

13:26

the family. So the same is

13:28

true with this internal family.

13:31

So most of us have a

13:33

lot of what we call

13:35

managers. They got us here.

13:37

They help us in our

13:39

careers. And the other systems

13:42

would call them the

13:44

defenses or the ego. And

13:46

in spirituality, they

13:48

get vilified too. But

13:50

their whole MO is keep

13:53

everything under control. Please

13:55

everybody and you'll survive.

13:58

The world has a way of...

14:00

breaking through those defenses, triggering

14:02

an exile, when that happens, it's

14:05

a big emergency. Because again, these

14:07

flames of raw emotion are going

14:09

to overwhelm you and make you

14:12

have trouble functioning or even getting

14:14

out of bed. So there are other

14:16

parts that immediately go into action

14:18

to deal with that emergency.

14:21

And in contrast to these managers,

14:23

they're impulsive, reactive,

14:25

damn the torpedoes. I don't

14:27

care about the collateral damage

14:29

to your body, to your relationships.

14:31

I just got to get you

14:34

higher than those flames or douse

14:36

them with some substance or distract

14:38

you till they burn themselves

14:40

out. So we call those firefighters.

14:42

And again, these are just the roles.

14:45

When released from these roles,

14:47

they'll transform into being

14:49

something very valuable. the

14:51

firefighter role is one of

14:54

the exiles that surfaces under

14:56

conditions of a lot of

14:58

emotion. Maybe we could, this

15:00

is a beautiful description, and

15:02

I'm completely on board this

15:04

idea that we have multiple

15:06

aspects of self or selves

15:08

inside. Jung said that too,

15:10

I think, right? Yeah. Jung

15:12

had all this a long

15:14

time ago. Yeah, and what

15:16

I like about this protectors

15:18

slash managers versus... Again, not

15:20

versus because they're combated,

15:22

but as a distinct

15:24

category, the exiles is Just feels

15:26

very true to me And I

15:29

like the the directness of the

15:31

language. So maybe we could just

15:33

Like create a mental grid

15:35

for people like if let's say I

15:37

came to you as a patient and

15:39

I said listen, you know, I'm I'll

15:41

just be direct. I'll be honest. Why

15:43

not do it? Let's do it. Secretly

15:46

I brought you here to get therapy.

15:48

No, no But okay, so I'm somebody

15:50

who for a very long time

15:52

has been able to organize his

15:55

life I tend to have smooth

15:57

interactions with my co-workers

15:59

great friendships. I now have a

16:02

very good relationship with my immediate

16:04

family, very good in fact. I'm

16:06

still working on a few things

16:08

with a few people, but I'm

16:10

living in a mode of great

16:12

joy and appreciation these days. However,

16:14

I'm not going to give the

16:16

details of this for psychoprivacy,

16:19

but the other day I was

16:21

in a discussion with a family

16:24

member. They had a grievance with

16:26

me that I thought we had

16:28

already addressed, and it And it

16:30

became very high friction conversation very

16:32

quickly to the point where we

16:34

tabled as an idea that maybe

16:37

we just take some like serious

16:39

space, which was not reflective of

16:41

how deeply I love this person or

16:44

they love me. It was just a

16:46

feeling of both of us just being

16:48

in this like high tension place, like,

16:50

ugh. And fortunately, the conversation

16:52

ended well with a path

16:55

forward that involved. more

16:57

contact not less that

16:59

I that both of

17:02

us feel really good

17:04

about. But in that

17:06

moment where I'm

17:08

feeling overwhelmed

17:11

and they're feeling

17:13

overwhelmed. What's going

17:15

on there? We're

17:18

both adults. So

17:20

overwhelmed with anger

17:22

at each other

17:24

or frustration. They were saying

17:27

things, but I feel like

17:29

there was so much underlying tension

17:31

based on a history of

17:33

poor communication, nested on

17:35

top of the kind of an

17:38

intensity of emotion that we

17:40

both tend to carry. And

17:42

somehow we just couldn't parse

17:44

things from that state. And so

17:46

I sat in my chair and I

17:48

just told myself, okay, I'm going to

17:51

not say anything for five minutes because

17:53

I know myself. It's not that I

17:55

thought I would say something really barbed

17:58

wire, but I just thought. This is

18:00

not going to work. Like I'm slamming

18:02

my head against a wall. They're not

18:05

hearing me. I'm clearly not hearing them.

18:07

And the thing that helped me

18:09

through that was just because it was

18:11

what was taught to me. I just

18:13

decided to surrender. And the word surrender

18:16

used to mean to me letting go

18:18

of truth. And it felt really scary

18:20

because when you say surrender, it's almost

18:23

like saying one context is

18:25

it. surrender means you're right no

18:27

matter and you're right. I was

18:29

just going to say that's right.

18:32

But I've come to realize that

18:34

surrender to me is just a

18:36

surrender in the moment. Yeah. So that

18:38

I can get better optics.

18:41

Yeah. Internal and external optics.

18:43

So to me that the

18:45

thing of embracing surrender in

18:47

those types of moments very uncomfortable.

18:49

But I now have learned

18:51

it's a great way to

18:53

get perspective. But even

18:56

as I describe it, the whole

18:58

situation was so heavy. I came

19:00

out of that call even though

19:02

it ended well and was like,

19:04

ugh. That was like, I'd never

19:06

run a marathon, but I'd rather

19:08

run a marathon than do two

19:10

of those a week. Totally agree.

19:12

I had one of those with

19:14

my wife a few days ago.

19:16

Okay. All right. Well. And yeah,

19:18

very similar. Just caught that part

19:21

and said, OK. Let's just let

19:23

it go for now. talk later.

19:25

So I could give you my

19:27

take on what happened, but if

19:29

you wanted to we could just

19:32

go in and do a little

19:34

exploring. Sure. Yeah? Yeah?

19:36

Sure. Okay. Should we start with

19:38

the frustrated angry

19:40

part? Sure. All right, you

19:43

ready? I believe so, yeah.

19:45

Okay. So remember that feeling

19:47

and then focus on it

19:49

and find it in your body

19:51

or around your body? Where

19:57

do you find a between the

19:59

middle? of my midsection and

20:01

like right behind my

20:04

forehead like there's pressure.

20:06

It's great. Both places.

20:08

It's great. You have

20:10

such clarity about it. So

20:12

as you focus there, how do

20:14

you feel toward this part

20:17

of you? Oh no, it's very unpleasant.

20:20

So you don't like it? No,

20:22

I don't like it. Yeah,

20:24

which makes sense because it

20:26

does... you know, sometimes escalate

20:28

things with your friend and

20:31

doesn't leave you feeling good.

20:33

So I understand

20:35

why you don't like it. But

20:37

we're going to ask the parts

20:39

that don't like it to give

20:41

us the space to just get

20:44

curious about it and

20:46

see if that's possible. Okay.

20:48

So how do you feel to put

20:50

it now? A little bit of

20:52

relaxation in the head part of

20:55

it. Yeah, it's funny how when

20:57

you ask me to localize it, it's

20:59

so clear, it's like this thing inside

21:01

me, it's like this about the size

21:04

of like a teddy bear that's just

21:06

like, oh, but it's not a friend,

21:08

it's not a good thing, it's like

21:10

pushed up there. But then when you

21:13

said to get curious about it, it

21:15

feels like it kind of drops down

21:17

a little bit and kind of moves

21:19

in a little, maybe softens a

21:21

little bit. So you do feel

21:24

curious toward it? silently. Up

21:26

to you, either way. Whichever is

21:28

more comfortable. Well, since this is

21:31

a podcast and none of this

21:33

is comfortable anyway for me to

21:35

do in public, if I'm quite

21:38

honest. Just ask inside. Sure. No,

21:40

I'll do it out loud. Okay, so

21:42

what do you want me to know about

21:44

you? Yeah, and just wait for the

21:46

answer. Don't think. I know you've

21:49

got a big cognitive part,

21:51

so we're going to relax.

21:53

And just whatever comes in

21:55

terms of the answer just

21:57

wait for it. Well my answer

22:00

is based on the feeling that occurred

22:02

immediately after asking it, which was,

22:04

the answer was, I can dissipate,

22:06

and then I kind of felt

22:09

it dissipate. So it feels like

22:11

an energy that when condensed, sucks.

22:13

But when I look at it,

22:15

softened a little bit, and then

22:17

it asked the question you asked,

22:19

and then it feels like it

22:21

just kind of went into the

22:23

rest of my body, but not

22:25

poisoning the rest of my body,

22:28

just kind of... mixing in with,

22:30

you know, because we're speaking in

22:32

completely, you know, in mystical

22:34

terms here, but... So it

22:36

relaxed, it may not have

22:38

dissipated in the way we

22:40

think about that, it might

22:42

have just relaxed more, but

22:45

just keep asking it, what's it

22:47

afraid would happen if in that

22:49

context it didn't try to take

22:52

over in the way that it

22:54

did? Just ask that question. If

22:56

it didn't try to take over...

22:58

Just wait for the answer.

23:01

Yeah, that's a good question.

23:03

Okay, so what would happen

23:05

if you didn't take over my

23:07

system that way, condense from

23:09

my stomach to my head

23:11

when I'm feeling that way?

23:14

Yeah. Don't think, yeah. Oh, the

23:16

answers are coming really quick.

23:18

That I wouldn't be able

23:20

to discern the truth. Okay.

23:23

So the truth is really

23:25

important to this part of you.

23:27

Yeah. Yeah, because it tends to

23:29

surface when I'm hearing something that

23:31

I that you know that I

23:34

believe to be fundamentally untrue Typically

23:36

about my thoughts or feelings right

23:38

I've come maybe with age I've

23:40

come to the conclusion that two

23:43

people can look at the same

23:45

interaction or same thing and have

23:47

two very different versions of it.

23:49

I'm okay with that the part

23:51

that I'm Very very sensitive to people

23:53

in my life know this is when

23:56

someone else tells me how I feel

23:58

right what my motives are how I

24:00

feel. That to me is like,

24:02

that's a kind of a hard,

24:04

fast way to engage this thing.

24:07

Okay, so just stay with this

24:09

thing, just stay with it. Okay.

24:11

And let it know you get

24:13

that, that having people misinterpret

24:16

your motives is really,

24:19

really hard for it. And

24:21

ask you more about that.

24:23

Just again, don't think, but

24:25

ask. Why that's so hard?

24:27

Why does that bother it so

24:30

much? And what's it afraid

24:32

would happen if it let that

24:34

go? Yeah, so what? Why are

24:37

you afraid to, or why do you

24:39

have to step in when that

24:41

happens? My answer is

24:43

not going to be

24:45

very satisfying for the

24:48

listeners, but or for me. But

24:50

it's saying... Because

24:53

if you can't hold on to

24:55

your truth, then nothing will make

24:57

sense. So there's something

24:59

about making sense or

25:01

not, nothing making sense that

25:04

it's really scared of. Is that

25:06

right? Yeah, I mean, I decide

25:08

to become a biologist and

25:11

to try and understand the

25:13

meat inside our heads and

25:15

body that is the nervous

25:17

system because I felt

25:20

and I still feel

25:22

that it. It can

25:24

reveal some fundamental facts

25:26

or truths. Understanding reality,

25:29

as it were, is

25:31

really important to me

25:33

because I feel like

25:35

humans, including myself,

25:37

of course, are so prone

25:40

to misinterpretation.

25:42

So, like the truth as a

25:45

thing out there, I'm willing to

25:47

let go of completely.

25:49

Like completely the truth

25:52

as it exists for

25:54

knowing for certain what

25:56

my motivations were What

25:58

did or didn't? But typically

26:00

it's about motivation. What did

26:03

or didn't happen, you usually

26:05

can parse with somebody. Yeah.

26:07

That's something I feel I need

26:10

to protect at all costs. Yeah.

26:12

So speaking of protect, and so

26:14

this is a protector part, right?

26:16

Ask it if it's protecting other

26:18

parts of you that are vulnerable

26:21

and get hurt when someone misattoons

26:23

to what your motive is.

26:26

Just ask that question, don't

26:28

think. That's a fast one.

26:30

Not easy, but it's a

26:32

fast one. Yeah, the part

26:34

of me that feels injured

26:36

by that is the fact

26:38

that I believe that I,

26:40

at least at the beginning

26:43

and throughout most of

26:45

a relationship and

26:47

even if a relationship

26:50

ends for whatever reason,

26:52

that I know it's my

26:54

nature to try and imagine

26:57

as much goodness. in the

26:59

intent of the other person

27:02

as possible. So if I were

27:04

to let go of this

27:06

response, keep going. In my

27:08

mind, I'm calling like this

27:10

like, it's like a

27:13

titanium teddy bear-shaped

27:15

thing, but it doesn't feel

27:17

like it's like a titanium

27:20

block there. I would potentially move

27:22

into a mode of judgment.

27:24

of them. It's interesting because

27:26

I, there are many people

27:29

from my past and maybe

27:31

even a few from my

27:33

present that people close to

27:35

me who are pretty well qualified

27:37

tell me that I should dislike them or

27:40

cut them out of my life and

27:42

I don't, there are a few, maybe

27:44

one or two instances of people

27:46

I've cut out of my life, but

27:48

it's my inclination always to just try

27:50

and see what can. what can exist.

27:53

So that part feels important to me.

27:55

I don't know why it's important now

27:57

that I come to think about it.

28:00

Well, we can ask, but so

28:02

what I'm hearing is this guy,

28:04

this titanium guy, is keeping it

28:06

bay another part that can

28:08

be very judgmental of the

28:10

other person. Yeah, I don't like

28:12

feeling that. Yeah. It feels

28:14

energetically wasteful. Yeah. And it

28:17

feels, more than that, it

28:19

feels incredibly sad. Yeah. It's

28:21

sort of like, I think to

28:23

accept that part of myself

28:26

as to kind of give up

28:28

on some fantasy. Which is probably an

28:30

unrealistic fantasy, which is what I'm

28:32

calling it a fantasy. I realize

28:34

yeah, like this Because I I

28:36

look at and I always have

28:38

since I was a kid I look at people

28:40

as We are among the animals where

28:42

the curators of the earth because

28:45

we're good at technology development, but

28:47

aside from that and our like

28:49

just like you wouldn't I can't

28:51

imagine that a racoon You know

28:53

looks at another raccoon and

28:55

it's like that's a bad

28:58

raccoon. It's just a rat,

29:00

rabid raccoon, you know, and

29:02

they just, I yearn for the

29:04

same, the same sensitivity to

29:07

our own species. I get

29:09

that. Yeah. Like I don't

29:11

hate anybody. Well, there

29:13

might be parts of you that

29:15

do, but... I hate behaviors. I

29:18

hate things that people have said

29:20

or done, not, certainly mostly to

29:22

other people, not to me, but

29:24

yeah, being, like really being angry

29:27

at someone in a pervasive

29:29

way, not just in the

29:31

moment, is something that's very

29:33

difficult for me. But what I'm

29:35

hearing, what we heard from this

29:38

part, it's afraid if it

29:40

doesn't do this, it's... a part

29:42

that judges the other, probably

29:44

in a, you know, not so nice

29:46

way, would be released. Does that

29:49

sound right? Yeah. So there is

29:51

that part in there. It's just

29:53

that you've been able to kind

29:56

of exile it. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

29:58

I'm comfortable. with the

30:00

idea that you take the appropriate

30:02

amount of distance could be zero

30:05

or could be near infinite, but

30:07

that I should take the appropriate

30:09

amount of distance from things and

30:11

people so that I can be

30:13

in the most loving stance toward

30:15

them or that. I'm not trying

30:17

to sound technical here with all

30:19

the parallel constructions, but I've thought

30:21

this through a lot. Like there's

30:23

some people that I, there's no

30:26

limit to the extent to which I

30:28

want to interact with them. We have other

30:30

things to do when I spend all our

30:32

time together. And then there are other people

30:34

that I love them, but I know that

30:36

I have to keep a certain amount

30:38

of distance in order to continue to

30:41

love them. This is the same thing. So

30:43

in that moment, it's almost like, but

30:45

it's coming up without my conscious thing.

30:47

It's not like saying, listen, that's

30:50

the kind of person I can talk to

30:52

like once a month or something.

30:54

And I'll just add, you know,

30:56

in professional settings, not now, but

30:58

in the distant past. when I

31:00

was in a very hierarchical structure,

31:03

I'm still an academia, still teach,

31:05

but not running research anymore

31:07

formally. You know, like I had

31:09

a couple senior colleagues that I

31:11

really loved and respected, but that

31:14

they would say or do things that

31:16

I thought were frankly unethical to

31:18

other people. And to me, I

31:20

felt them as kind of abrasive.

31:22

So I might, like the physical

31:24

manifestation of this is,

31:26

I would make it a point to Like

31:28

walk past their office store quickly so

31:31

that they didn't say hey because I

31:33

don't want to interact But I know

31:35

I don't I'm not familiar with cutting

31:37

people out of my life, right? I'm

31:39

just not familiar with doing that. I

31:41

don't believe I sort of don't believe

31:43

in it as a value Let's pause

31:45

for a second. I'll give you a

31:47

little overview where we are So we

31:49

started with this guy who came up with

31:52

your friend and is trying to

31:54

protect that relationship because

31:56

if you continue to be misunderstood in terms

31:58

of your motives, it would have an impact. Okay,

32:00

does that sound right? Yeah, the

32:02

only thing I'll, is a family

32:04

member. Yeah, not that matters, but

32:07

close family member. Got

32:09

it. Yeah. And in exploring

32:11

this part, asking what it's

32:13

afraid would happen if it

32:15

didn't do that. So there's this

32:18

other part that might come out

32:20

that would be very judgmental

32:22

of that family member and

32:25

really might have a. Bad

32:27

influence on your relationship with

32:29

that person. Does that sound

32:31

right? That's correct. Okay, so

32:33

we have these two well we

32:36

have You who's noticing all this

32:38

which we should talk more about

32:40

and Then we have these two

32:43

parts that are sort of polarized,

32:45

but One the judgmental

32:47

one you really don't like and

32:49

so you really go to lengths to

32:51

keep it bay and you're you

32:53

kind of admire this guy

32:56

But you also know that he

32:58

can get in the way at times

33:00

too. Does all that sound right?

33:02

Yeah, that's right. Because I'm describing

33:05

a recent situation where the presence

33:07

of this like titanium teddy bear,

33:09

I don't know why that's amusing

33:12

to me to say that, the

33:14

shape of a teddy bear, I'm

33:16

not seeing a teddy bear

33:18

in there, but roughly that

33:21

size and shape. It creates

33:23

a protection, but a pressure

33:25

internally that's super uncomfortable. It's

33:28

actually taking me a couple

33:30

days to dissipate this. And I

33:32

do think somewhat counter to

33:34

the way I'm describing it,

33:37

it doesn't prevent me from

33:39

saying something. It actually, if

33:41

it's too much, it's almost

33:43

like that's when words

33:45

start coming out and

33:47

they're not kind. So it's not

33:50

a real protector in the sense

33:52

like it's preventing me from a

33:54

course of action I don't want to

33:56

take. It's more like it feels like

33:58

it's kind of extruding. this stuff

34:01

and obviously I'm responsible

34:03

for my words and

34:05

actions I know that but it does

34:07

feel like it it creates kind

34:09

of takes over it takes over

34:12

yeah that sort of way to put

34:14

it so let's let's go through

34:16

that again so uh I'm

34:18

so grateful that you're willing

34:20

to be this vulnerable and

34:22

expose these parts so this

34:24

guy actually they're both

34:27

probably what we call

34:29

firefighters and very reactive

34:31

there's maybe some other very

34:33

vulnerable part that is involved

34:36

here we haven't heard about

34:38

but if I were to

34:41

be continued we continue to

34:43

work together I would work to

34:45

get permission to go to the

34:48

judgmental guy too and what you

34:50

would find is he's a protector

34:52

too he's not just a bunch

34:54

of negative thoughts about people

34:57

and as I was hearing earlier

34:59

You've spent a lot of

35:01

time in your life trying to

35:04

be fair to people and to

35:06

not judge them and to see

35:08

them. What they do is just

35:10

their behaviors and not who they

35:12

are, which is great. But in the

35:15

process of doing that sometimes,

35:17

we wind up having to

35:19

push away the parts that

35:21

want to judge and want

35:23

to hate and so on. And

35:25

what I find is if we can

35:27

go there. and get to know

35:29

them, they're just protectors

35:32

too, and they're

35:34

young, and they, when they are

35:36

able to unload the hate they

35:38

might carry, the judgment,

35:41

they'll transform. So

35:43

this is a model of transformation

35:46

in that sense, and it's,

35:49

there are no bad parts.

35:51

You go to everybody

35:53

in there, regardless of how

35:55

you think they, how bad they

35:57

are. And you get curious about

35:59

it. and you learn how they're

36:01

trying to protect, and then

36:04

we help them out of their

36:06

protective roles and help them

36:08

trust. There's a you, who you

36:10

talked about with Martha, who can

36:13

run things, that they don't have to

36:15

do it because most of them

36:17

are young, and get them to trust

36:19

this you to handle your

36:21

family member, rather than they

36:23

have to take over or try

36:26

to take over in the way

36:28

they did. Does this make any

36:30

sense? Yeah, it makes total sense.

36:32

You know, what you said at

36:34

the beginning, permission to go to

36:36

the judgmental part, I was just,

36:38

in my mind, flits, when I

36:40

hear that flits too, you know,

36:43

two possibilities, one's a

36:45

novel possibility, one's a familiar

36:47

possibility. The familiar possibility

36:49

is, if I were

36:52

to really feel the disappointment

36:55

that I'm feeling... when this pattern

36:57

in the other person shows

36:59

up again, because at least

37:01

seems to, I'm very familiar

37:04

with the pattern, then it

37:06

would fundamentally like change the

37:08

way that I feel about them. That's

37:10

right. Like I'm trying to hold

37:12

on to the goodness in the

37:15

right. But of course I want

37:17

to be very clear, not just

37:19

for anyone listening, but

37:21

for myself too, that

37:23

clearly that the... the protecting

37:25

role of this titanium teddy

37:28

bear has created something where

37:30

what the times when things

37:33

have broken through from my

37:35

side they're not kind right

37:37

and or they're spoken in

37:40

a way that just is not

37:42

constructive right right so yeah and

37:44

then the second possibility

37:47

is that I hadn't considered

37:50

this possibility this

37:52

possibility But the

37:54

second possibility is

37:57

that were I to let

37:59

myself. that disappointment

38:01

that maybe the relationship

38:04

could persist? Like I've been

38:06

looking at those things as

38:09

mutually exclusive. Yeah. And as

38:11

I say all this, I

38:13

also realize that, well, the

38:15

honest disclaimer is like

38:17

I don't want to give the

38:20

impression that I don't judge people.

38:22

I'm human and I certainly do.

38:24

I'm just saying that when there's

38:27

a relationship that I wish to

38:29

maintain, I'll go to great lengths

38:32

to push aside knowledge of my

38:34

own experience and or just judgment.

38:36

I've made this, I've engaged in

38:39

this pattern in ways that

38:41

ended up being extremely destructive

38:43

to me by completely like.

38:45

putting the blinders on to things

38:48

that were right in front of

38:50

me. And that's what I'm talking

38:52

consciously. That's what I'm talking about.

38:54

Because I adored the person so

38:56

much in other dimensions, like that, you know,

38:58

and, you know, it's not a, for

39:00

lack of a better word, a holistic

39:02

way to approach things. But I also

39:04

will say that in contrast to

39:06

those types of relationships where this, where

39:09

the titanium tentator is not required,

39:11

feel to me. So like by

39:13

comparison, but also in the absolute

39:16

scale feel to me like the

39:18

best possible relationships one could have

39:20

they're like pinch me type of

39:23

relationships like friendship some of my

39:25

relationships to family like my co-workers

39:27

and and there are others too

39:29

Certainly had romantic relationships like

39:32

that relationships my relationship to

39:34

my dog as trivial as

39:36

people might think that seems that

39:38

the contrast of that like where there's

39:40

no need for this protector part

39:42

the best thing because it

39:44

feels completely safe and uninhibited. I

39:47

never have to worry that I'm

39:49

going to be taken over from

39:51

the inside. Nor do I ever worry

39:53

that I'm going to like really screw

39:55

up. Yeah. And I hope that if I

39:57

do screw up, they'll tell me, but... Like

40:00

it's the complete

40:02

absence of fear. So

40:04

let me check in and

40:07

just see how this has

40:09

been to discuss and

40:11

focus and so on.

40:13

What's it been like

40:15

to do this process?

40:17

It's a lot in the sense

40:20

that I don't like feeling

40:23

that titanium thing. Teddy bear.

40:25

It's been very, it's been

40:27

very informative, so it's balanced

40:29

by that. And maybe that's

40:31

why I went into a

40:33

little riff about the pleasant

40:35

relationships and how, how outsized

40:37

positive they are for me.

40:39

They're like a, they're like

40:41

a salve and an elixir

40:43

for me that maybe I give

40:45

myself a little like washover with

40:48

that because it's pretty uncomfortable. Yeah.

40:50

But it's been, it's really informative.

40:52

And it also tells me that

40:54

the internal family systems work that

40:56

I did if someone else was

40:58

an attempt at this but so

41:01

very different which makes sense because

41:03

this is your art and science

41:05

Yeah, so so I'm grateful. Yeah,

41:07

so that feels good what I

41:09

was saying earlier is if we

41:12

were to pursue it We could get to

41:14

the point where the Teddy Bear guy

41:16

could unload the feelings he carries

41:18

that makes it so uncomfortable and

41:20

he would transform how would I

41:22

how would We go about doing

41:24

that? You would focus on him

41:26

again. We would explore more of

41:29

what he's protecting. Either we would

41:31

go to the guy he's trying

41:33

to keep at bay that would

41:35

ruin a relationship. Or often these

41:38

parts are protecting something much more

41:40

vulnerable from your past. Some young

41:42

part that stuck somewhere in the

41:45

past that has a big issue

41:47

about being misunderstood in terms

41:49

of motives or something. Yeah, it's

41:51

not that I need. clarity on this

41:54

right now, but it's more that

41:56

it protects the possibility

41:58

of a relation. at all. Like I

42:01

think the fear is like if I were

42:03

to look through my lens of

42:05

truth what's happened or is

42:07

happening in the moment, if I were

42:09

a quote-unquote better boundary

42:11

person, it'd be done yesterday.

42:14

Yeah. But so it's sort of like

42:16

a desire to live out a

42:18

fantasy. Got it. I mean if I'm

42:20

honest. So that would be the part

42:22

that we would go to that

42:24

it protects that has this fantasy

42:27

of what... a relationship should be

42:29

or could be who might be

42:31

stuck somewhere in the past

42:33

and we would learn we would

42:36

witness you know you talked

42:38

with Martha about compassionate witness

42:40

we would witness where he's

42:43

stuck and what was happening back

42:45

then I would have you go

42:47

in and get him out of

42:49

that time period then we would

42:51

have him unload the desire

42:54

for that fantasy that

42:56

keeps you getting And

42:58

then I would have you have the

43:00

Teddy Bear see it doesn't have to

43:02

protect him anymore. And then we

43:04

would help the Teddy Bear unload

43:06

the feelings he carries. And then

43:08

he could relax. And they would all

43:11

start to trust you, which we should

43:13

talk about a little bit now. Who

43:15

is you? Who's separate from these others?

43:17

For the record, I never owned a

43:19

Teddy bear as a kid. I had a

43:21

stuffed frog. I had a Teddy bear. I

43:24

had a, well, I'm not embarrassed, I had

43:26

a stuffed frog that I love, is a

43:28

phrase, the frog. But, so I don't

43:31

know where the Teddy bear thing came

43:33

up, but the shape was so very

43:35

clear. But let me just elaborate on

43:37

what I was just saying, because

43:39

when you separated from him

43:41

and you found him here, and I

43:43

asked you how you felt toward him?

43:46

And you had an attitude about

43:48

him at first, remember? And we

43:50

got that to relax and got

43:52

curious about him. Then you started to

43:54

access more of what I call yourself

43:56

with a capital S. So it comes through

43:59

curiosity. Well, it often

44:01

starts with curiosity. And

44:03

just to backtrack a

44:05

little bit, so when I would have

44:07

these clients in the early

44:10

days starting to work with

44:12

these parts, like the critic and

44:14

so on, and once I got

44:16

hip to the fact they weren't

44:18

what they seemed that they deserved

44:21

to be listened to rather than

44:23

fought with, so I would help the

44:26

parts that hated them step

44:28

out. And clients could do that pretty

44:30

readily. And then I would say, now

44:32

how do you feel toward this critic?

44:35

And spontaneously, people would

44:37

say, I'm just curious about why

44:39

it calls me names all day. Or even

44:41

would say, I feel sorry for it that

44:43

it has to do this. I'm going to

44:46

help it. And when they were in that

44:48

state, and I would ask, what part of

44:50

you is that? That's great. Let's

44:52

keep that around. They'd say, that's

44:54

not a part like these others.

44:56

That's me. That's me. essence, and

44:58

that's my self. So I came to

45:00

call that the self with a

45:02

capital less. Forty years later,

45:04

thousands of people doing this

45:07

all over the world, turns out

45:09

that that self is in everybody,

45:11

just beneath the surface of

45:13

these parts, so that when they

45:15

open space, you can access it

45:17

quickly, and has all these great

45:19

qualities, what I call the eight

45:21

C's. So curious, but also calm,

45:24

confident, compassionate, compassionate,

45:26

compassionate. courageous,

45:29

clear, creative, and connected.

45:31

And that person knows how to

45:33

heal these parts. So once I

45:36

get somebody in a lot of what

45:38

we call self, I'll just say, okay,

45:40

what do you want to say to

45:42

this part? And how does it

45:44

react? And now what do you want

45:47

to do with the part? I can

45:49

kind of get out of the way. And

45:51

one of the hallmarks of IFS, as

45:53

opposed to a lot of other

45:56

therapies, is that... It's not so

45:58

much about me becoming that. You know

46:00

good attachment figure to these

46:02

hurting parts of you these

46:04

inner children You become that you

46:07

become the good attachment figure

46:09

yourself Or the good inner parent

46:11

or the good internal leader For

46:13

these parts and they come to trust

46:16

you as a leader and then you get

46:18

into it with your family member

46:20

and you just remind the

46:22

part now I can handle this. Just

46:25

let me let me stay and now

46:27

when that happens with my wife

46:29

Sometimes, not on a good day, I

46:31

can stay in the seaward qualities

46:33

and have a totally different

46:36

conversation with her than if

46:38

that protector took over. I'd

46:40

like to take a quick break and

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bank. The APY is subject to

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change. For more information see

49:26

the episode description. I'm struck by

49:29

a couple of things that I think

49:31

people will be if I may wise to

49:33

think about. One is Yeah, in the

49:36

classic psychodynamic or CBT

49:38

model of therapy, it's clear

49:40

that the client or

49:42

patient sometimes it's called,

49:45

right? Patient therapist relationship

49:47

is one where it

49:49

takes on certain components

49:51

that exist in the

49:54

outside world with other

49:56

people. And it's always slightly

49:58

bothered me. slash concern

50:00

me that that's the

50:03

structure and as you said

50:05

in IFS internal family systems

50:07

you become your own therapist if

50:09

you will. I don't know for

50:12

lack of a better way to

50:14

put it. I like that because

50:16

there's so much discussion

50:18

nowadays about you know parenting yourself

50:20

and this kind of thing and

50:22

Learning to mother yourself and father

50:24

yourself. And I actually think there's

50:26

great value in that. I mean,

50:28

I learned by living alone, you

50:30

know, how to cook for myself

50:32

and clean for myself. These are,

50:34

I'm mapping to stereotypes here, but

50:36

also to protect myself and to,

50:38

you know, organize myself and be

50:40

very, very disciplined. And actually running

50:42

a laboratory was a great teaching

50:44

there because you're basically a single

50:46

academic parent. to all these people.

50:48

So you quickly realize where

50:51

you lack maternal instincts and

50:53

where you may lack or

50:55

over-emphasize or have hypertrophy maternal

50:57

instincts. So that was a

51:00

good forum to see my

51:02

weaknesses and hopefully some strengths

51:04

too. So I like this

51:06

idea that one can play

51:09

those roles for oneself.

51:11

How is IFS typically? done

51:13

if somebody doesn't have access

51:15

to a therapist who's expert

51:17

in it, or is that

51:19

really the only proper gateway

51:21

into it? No, so. Because

51:23

I'm sitting here with the master,

51:25

the founder, and I'm very grateful,

51:27

by the way, for the work

51:30

we just did. So thank you.

51:32

It feels good. I was a

51:34

privilege. Yeah, likewise. But most people

51:36

won't have direct one on

51:38

wanted access to you. So. It's

51:42

very experiential. I imagine in

51:45

books and courses people can learn

51:47

how to do this and by the

51:49

way this isn't this was not preconceived

51:51

as a as a pitch for books

51:53

and courses but I'm wondering like can

51:56

somebody do this on their own the

51:58

very first time? Yeah. I want to

52:00

know. Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I

52:02

resisted trying to take this directly

52:04

to the public because I learned

52:06

the hard way that some systems,

52:09

particularly people with huge

52:11

amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.

52:13

And if you start going to

52:15

these, you know, the part we

52:17

talked about that's vulnerable inside, that

52:19

has this view of relationships,

52:21

this kind of idealized view

52:24

of relationships of relationships

52:26

of relationships, of relationships,

52:28

would be what I call an

52:31

exile, that if we were to go

52:33

to it, and we won't today,

52:35

because it requires a

52:38

lot of vulnerability, but

52:40

if we were to,

52:42

a lot of extreme

52:44

protectors might come out, and

52:46

then people start to

52:48

get scared. So it took

52:50

a long time to figure out how

52:53

we might bring it to the

52:55

public in a safer way. And

52:57

so we just put out a

52:59

workbook for people and it doesn't

53:01

involve necessarily going to those places.

53:03

But there's a huge amount you

53:06

can do just by working the

53:08

way we started to with these

53:10

protectors and getting to know them

53:12

and know that they're not you.

53:14

They're just apart trying their best.

53:16

And no, it's not anything negative.

53:19

That judgmental part you've got such

53:21

an attitude about or fear of.

53:23

If you were just to begin getting

53:25

curious about it and getting to

53:27

know it a bit, you'd find

53:29

out that it's a very valuable

53:32

part that has a lot of

53:34

discernment like you said, and wants

53:36

desperately to keep you from getting

53:39

in these relationships where

53:41

you get hurt and gets so

53:43

judgmental because you don't listen

53:45

to it. You follow what I'm saying?

53:48

I do. In fact, something pops to

53:50

mine, maybe I could just ask you

53:52

about it. My mind's right on

53:54

what you're saying, but you know

53:57

something occurred to me as you said

53:59

it Which is? If I

54:01

were to, for instance, really feel the

54:03

feeling of like, hey, that's really

54:05

screwed up, or like, that's not,

54:07

like, actually feel the disappointment or

54:09

judgment that this titanium teddy

54:12

bear is trying to protect against,

54:14

I realize it leads to a lot

54:16

of role confusion and identity confusion. And

54:18

I'll just be very blunt. It's probably

54:20

not the best thing to do on

54:22

a podcast, but I'm going to do

54:24

it anyway, which is, you know, this

54:27

is how I feel about modern politics.

54:29

I see things. on the left that

54:31

makes sense to me and things that

54:33

are to me just absolutely

54:35

ludicrous, inappropriate, offensive, and like just

54:37

badly wrong. I see things on

54:39

the right that make a ton

54:41

of sense to me and also

54:43

things that are inappropriate, offensive and

54:45

wrong. And as a consequence, I'm

54:48

trying to see the best, the

54:50

goodness in both sides and just

54:52

kind of create this kind of

54:54

Swiss cheese model of the world,

54:56

talking about politics because it's just

54:58

simpler to do and I... people

55:00

at least know the groups we're

55:02

talking about. And but then it leaves

55:04

me in a place of no affiliation

55:06

and I'm then between one of two

55:09

stances one of just kind of standing

55:11

there being like yeah well there's no

55:13

real position in the middle that is

55:16

an official position in the middle but

55:18

it also makes me just want to

55:20

put up the middle finger to both

55:22

and say I'm a double-hater but of

55:25

course I'm an adult and a citizen

55:27

who cares about it. people in the

55:29

country and so I feel like to be

55:32

an adult I can't opt out

55:34

but there's like I feel unaffiliated

55:36

I feel like there's no option

55:38

for me and this maps pretty

55:41

well to I think the identity

55:43

and role confusion that I feel

55:45

when I place my my my

55:47

again understanding the truth is

55:49

a complicated thing but my

55:52

judgment on things in people is like

55:54

well then what is my role as a

55:56

son what is my role as a As

55:58

a partner, what is my role if? this

56:00

thing is true. And so it's

56:02

a way I'm realizing of protecting

56:04

the simplicity of a role. That's

56:06

right. And I did grow up

56:09

in a home where like the

56:11

roles were like, you know, your

56:13

son, you do certain things like,

56:15

you know, you do. You know, and so,

56:18

but I also have a rebellious side

56:20

to me. So the, the role

56:22

confusion is something that I

56:25

imagine a lot of people are

56:27

familiar with. Yeah. And. When one

56:29

and I also believe that when you just

56:31

really say well They did something bad.

56:34

Therefore all bad. Therefore. I'm part of

56:36

the opposite team right that to me

56:38

is an unlived life Yeah, it's like

56:41

it's a but I see a lot

56:43

of people do it and actually sometimes

56:45

I'm envious of people that have that

56:47

ability because they seem so there seems

56:50

so uncon conflicted right So it's a

56:52

tough thing to be a thinking feeling

56:54

person at the level of nuance. Yeah,

56:57

it kind of sucks sometimes. I'd rather

56:59

do that than be a double-hater or

57:01

just cleanly opt in. Does that make

57:04

sense? Totally makes sense.

57:06

And what I'm hearing is

57:08

that when you're looking at

57:10

a person or a political

57:12

party or issue in

57:14

the world, you'll hear from

57:17

these conflicted parts. They each

57:19

have perspective, just like

57:21

our country now hears from

57:24

these conflicted parts. But

57:26

you don't have a lot of

57:28

access to what I'm calling

57:30

self in those contexts. Because

57:33

one of the C words is

57:35

clarity. So again, as I was

57:37

listening to you and Martha, you

57:39

were talking about how there are

57:41

times where you just have the

57:44

sense in your body of what's

57:46

right or what's true. That's what

57:48

I'm calling self. Self has

57:51

that clarity. And self-season

57:53

justice. Some of those

57:55

C words are courage,

57:58

confidence. and

58:00

clarity. So there's an impulse

58:03

also to act to correct

58:05

imbalance, to correct injustice too.

58:07

So self isn't a kind

58:09

of passive witness as it

58:11

is in a lot of

58:14

spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an

58:16

act of inner leader, it's an

58:18

active external leader. And too

58:20

often our actions are driven

58:23

by these protective parts

58:25

and that's true in our

58:27

politics now too. So one

58:29

of my goals is to try

58:32

to bring more self-leadership to the

58:34

world, to these conflicts.

58:36

But to do that, people have

58:38

to unburden. They have to release

58:41

these extreme beliefs and

58:43

emotions they got from their

58:45

traumas in the past. We

58:48

have a concept we call

58:50

legacy burdens. So many

58:52

people have... inherited

58:54

these extreme beliefs and emotions

58:56

that came down through their

58:59

ancestors and drive their parts

59:01

drive their extremes and many

59:03

conflicts in the world are

59:05

driven by these legacy burdens and

59:07

we've gotten good at helping

59:09

people unload these these things. Yeah we've

59:12

seen this in the Middle East

59:14

recently totally and we're doing a

59:16

lot we're doing a lot of work

59:18

in the Middle East so we have

59:20

training programs there we have And one

59:23

of my visions is to

59:25

have large-scale legacy unburdening,

59:28

where large groups of people

59:30

come together, and we help them

59:32

unload the Holocaust legacy burdens

59:35

on the one side and

59:37

the 1941 legacy burdens on

59:39

the Palestinian side, and have

59:42

more self- accessible to each

59:44

side. And when, like when

59:46

we do couples therapy, we

59:48

do other kinds of negotiated

59:50

conflict. If people's parts start getting

59:52

into it, we'll just say time

59:54

out. You sort of did this on your

59:57

own with your family member. Just

59:59

say time out. On both of you

1:00:01

to go inside, find the parts

1:00:03

that have been doing the

1:00:05

speaking. Don't come back until

1:00:08

you can speak for them,

1:00:10

but not from them. And

1:00:12

come back in these seaward

1:00:14

qualities in that state of

1:00:17

self. We can hold people

1:00:19

in that. It's really easy

1:00:21

to get out of the

1:00:23

conflict. If their protectors are

1:00:25

going at it all the time,

1:00:28

conflicts never change. have

1:00:30

the reflex or the ability

1:00:33

to kind of somaticize a

1:00:35

bit? Like I obviously, I

1:00:37

don't think of myself as

1:00:39

somebody who's like psychosomatic,

1:00:41

I don't have stomach

1:00:43

aches and headaches and stuff unless

1:00:46

I've caught a virus, you know,

1:00:48

but I can feel where certain

1:00:50

things are in my body pretty

1:00:52

quickly and always have. Do you

1:00:55

think that... IFS lends

1:00:57

itself better to people who,

1:00:59

you know, feel things somatically

1:01:01

versus people that are like really

1:01:03

cognitive and in their head because I

1:01:06

have that component too. I can actually

1:01:08

feel the switch. Yeah. Like I do

1:01:10

it through, I'll go into like a

1:01:12

narrative and then I start to see

1:01:15

the structure like up here. Yeah. And

1:01:17

that happened several times when we were

1:01:19

working together. Like I would have you

1:01:21

stay with something and then the narrator

1:01:24

part would kick you in. Yeah. And then

1:01:26

I would try to refocus you. But,

1:01:28

you know, I lived in Boston

1:01:30

for 10 years. So I worked

1:01:33

with lots of cognitive people who

1:01:35

didn't know their bodies, who had,

1:01:37

you know, just were in that

1:01:39

rat race to try and get

1:01:41

tenure and so on. Been there.

1:01:43

Yes, me too. Yeah. Tenures nice,

1:01:46

but one should tend to their

1:01:48

emotional cells while they're pursuing it.

1:01:51

But just to answer your question,

1:01:53

they can do it. They can do

1:01:55

it. But we first have to start

1:01:57

with that thinking part and get it

1:01:59

on. and get it to step

1:02:01

out and just to stay out

1:02:04

long enough that they can feel

1:02:06

their bodies. So yeah, you know, it

1:02:08

lends itself to anybody, but

1:02:11

with people like that it

1:02:13

takes a while for that

1:02:15

thinking part to trust that

1:02:17

it's safe to let them into

1:02:20

their bodies. So we were to

1:02:22

just step back for a

1:02:24

moment and do sort of

1:02:26

a top contour summary of

1:02:28

the process. someone brings forward

1:02:31

a memory of a recent

1:02:33

or distant memory of some

1:02:35

thing that made them feel not

1:02:37

good. And you try and localize

1:02:39

some sensation in the body.

1:02:42

Get a sense of its location.

1:02:44

Yeah. Yeah. Because if they find

1:02:46

it in their body and they

1:02:48

direct the question there and they

1:02:50

wait for the answer to come

1:02:52

from there, they're less likely to

1:02:55

be in their head. So it's

1:02:57

sort of short circuits that thinking

1:02:59

part, and so many people come

1:03:01

to therapy, and that thinking part

1:03:03

thinks it's supposed to do the

1:03:06

therapy. It's, you know, CBT or

1:03:08

whatever, even a lot of the

1:03:10

more, not experiential, but a lot

1:03:12

of the more psychodynamic therapies,

1:03:15

the thinking part is really

1:03:17

trying to explain why they feel

1:03:19

stuff. Right. So this is getting

1:03:21

them out of that and getting

1:03:23

them to actually listen inside into...

1:03:25

What they think is their body,

1:03:27

but it's really these parts that

1:03:29

live down there that they haven't had

1:03:32

access to because the thinking part

1:03:34

is running through so much. Got it. And

1:03:36

then one places some attention from

1:03:38

the stance of curiosity to like

1:03:40

what's there? What's it trying to

1:03:43

say? Exactly so. And then you

1:03:45

start to reveal that the underlying

1:03:47

layers of what's it protecting? What

1:03:49

are the what are those things that

1:03:51

are protective trying to say? Yeah, it's

1:03:54

not even... You're trying to reveal, it's

1:03:56

just that you're asking these questions, and

1:03:58

the answers start coming. I see. Oh,

1:04:00

I love this because I'm a

1:04:03

big believer in ceding the unconscious

1:04:05

mind and then letting things surface

1:04:08

either in sleep or in meditative

1:04:10

states or has internal family systems

1:04:12

been combined with some of the

1:04:15

therapies that are now getting tested

1:04:17

still in clinical trial stage around

1:04:19

psychedelics? Yeah. In fact, two days

1:04:22

ago we just completed a... IFS

1:04:24

and Ketamine Retreat. Oh, wow. So

1:04:26

we had, and we're doing it

1:04:29

more and more, like I said,

1:04:31

I'm trying to bring this more

1:04:34

out of the psychotherapy world. So

1:04:36

we invited 32 leaders to come

1:04:38

of various kinds and had three

1:04:41

days where they do Ketamine and

1:04:43

then do IAF. The nice thing

1:04:45

about psychedelics is it puts those

1:04:48

manager parts to sleep somehow a

1:04:50

lot of the time. Yeah, I've

1:04:53

been open about the fact and

1:04:55

I always have to provide the

1:04:57

disclaimer I am I don't just

1:05:00

say this for to protect me

1:05:02

I say this to protect listeners

1:05:04

that I do think Young people

1:05:07

should avoid psychedelics the brain is

1:05:09

already in a psychedelic state It's

1:05:12

it's the amount of plasticity and

1:05:14

this is really tremendous and this

1:05:16

is coming from somebody who Regrets

1:05:19

it but I did psychedelics recreationally

1:05:21

as a kid. Me too. And

1:05:23

I regret it. I returned to

1:05:26

them later in a clinical setting

1:05:28

and derived a lot of benefit,

1:05:30

I think, from them, namely high-dose

1:05:33

syllasibin and MDMA, but both of

1:05:35

those are still very much illegal.

1:05:38

You can get into a lot

1:05:40

of trouble for taking them and

1:05:42

or... certainly for selling them. So

1:05:45

that's the cautionary note there. And

1:05:47

the clinical trials are really impressive,

1:05:49

in my opinion, spectacularly impressive, especially

1:05:52

for MDMA and for the treatment

1:05:54

of PTSD. But the FDA this

1:05:57

last year did not approve MDMA.

1:05:59

as a treatment for PTSD, I

1:06:01

think going forward in the new

1:06:04

administration, it's likely that it will

1:06:06

get approved, but who knows? Who

1:06:08

knows? So anyway, that's a bunch

1:06:11

of pseudo-legally jargon, but it's sincere.

1:06:13

If I were an 18 or

1:06:16

19-year-old person or 30-year-old person listening

1:06:18

to a conversation about psychedelics and

1:06:20

how they can be helpful, I

1:06:23

would want to also know that

1:06:25

There are instances where people take

1:06:27

them and they don't have the

1:06:30

appropriate guidance in and through it

1:06:32

and out of it and it

1:06:34

leads to serious problems. So this

1:06:37

is a real real thing that

1:06:39

we're talking about. That's why these

1:06:42

academy and clinics where they just

1:06:44

handle the drugs and medicine and

1:06:46

just leave them on their own

1:06:49

are scary to me. I'm proud

1:06:51

to say that IFS has been

1:06:53

adopted as one of the primary.

1:06:56

models for psychedelics now. Great. Because

1:06:58

it's a really nice fit. And

1:07:01

as I was saying earlier, what

1:07:03

I see happening often, not always,

1:07:05

is these manager parts go offline

1:07:08

and that releases a lot of

1:07:10

self. So you start to just

1:07:12

feel those seaward qualities emerging. And

1:07:15

that's a big invitation to all

1:07:17

these exiled parts to come and

1:07:20

get attention. And so... as people

1:07:22

come out of the Ketamine experience,

1:07:24

I can work with them for

1:07:27

15 minutes and do something that

1:07:29

would take maybe five sessions because

1:07:31

they can get access to parts

1:07:34

that they couldn't get, or it

1:07:36

would take a long time to

1:07:38

convince their protectors to let us

1:07:41

go to. And we can unburden

1:07:43

those exiles and then bring back

1:07:46

their protectors. And so I love

1:07:48

it. And Ketamine's the legal one,

1:07:50

so that's why we do it.

1:07:53

And the other nice thing, and

1:07:55

I don't know as a scientist

1:07:57

how much you would go with

1:08:00

this, but Ketamine, again, because it

1:08:02

opens the door. with these protectors,

1:08:05

you can also taste what I

1:08:07

call the big self. You taste

1:08:09

this what they call non-dual state

1:08:12

that can be quite blissful and

1:08:14

some people got God. And then

1:08:16

as you come back, you have

1:08:19

this sense of I'm much more

1:08:21

than this little body and this

1:08:24

little ego that there is something

1:08:26

much bigger. And that's why they're

1:08:28

using it with end of life.

1:08:31

why it did and so on

1:08:33

and has such a big impact

1:08:35

on depression and because it sort

1:08:38

of lifts you out of this

1:08:40

little box your protectors have you

1:08:42

in to know that there's something

1:08:45

much more. Interesting. I've never tried

1:08:47

ketamine a few years ago and

1:08:50

I've talked about this publicly as

1:08:52

well. I started developing a pretty

1:08:54

deep relationship to... to spirituality and

1:08:57

God, and mostly through the path

1:08:59

of giving up control. I mean,

1:09:01

there's a sort of breaking news,

1:09:04

folks, you can't control everything, you

1:09:06

know, and you can control certain

1:09:09

things, but most things, no. And

1:09:11

the way you describe, Ketamine is

1:09:13

very interesting, because as a dissociative

1:09:16

anesthetic, it works in such a

1:09:18

fundamentally different way than, say MDMA,

1:09:20

which is an impathogen which makes

1:09:23

people feel so much more. I

1:09:25

mean, I sort of half joke

1:09:28

that the, aside from the safety

1:09:30

legality stuff, the concern I have

1:09:32

about MDMA is that if one

1:09:35

is not in the I mask,

1:09:37

if you don't have somebody guiding

1:09:39

you through it and taking some

1:09:42

notes, you know, if you listen

1:09:44

to a piece of jazz or

1:09:46

classical music, your favorite rock and

1:09:49

roll album or... You're there with

1:09:51

your dog or cat or plants.

1:09:54

I mean, you can spend the

1:09:56

entire four hours bonding with the

1:09:58

plant. You're not going to run

1:10:01

off and get married to a

1:10:03

plant. You're not going to try

1:10:05

and fornicate with a plant, but,

1:10:08

one hopes, but it's a very

1:10:10

precious but very labile situation. Totally

1:10:13

great. Because it's such a strong

1:10:15

impathogen that whatever you direct your

1:10:17

attention to, internal or external, is

1:10:20

going to hypertrophy. So just have

1:10:22

to be really careful. Totally I

1:10:24

totally agree. You know, and given

1:10:27

that the neurotoxicity issues seem worked

1:10:29

out and that if it's actually

1:10:32

MDMA and isn't other things, by

1:10:34

the way, that the big study

1:10:36

that showed neurotoxicity of MDMA and

1:10:39

non-human primates, turned out they were

1:10:41

injecting methamphetamine. What? Yeah, that paper

1:10:43

was retracted, it was published in

1:10:46

science, will provide a link to

1:10:48

the paper and the retraction. The

1:10:50

retraction was not as publicized. Methylene,

1:10:53

Doxy, methamphetamine, MDMA, has not been

1:10:55

shown to be neurotoxic, provided that's

1:10:58

what people are taking. And not

1:11:00

taking some combination of other things.

1:11:02

Yeah, it's a real tragedy the

1:11:05

way that retractions don't get nearly

1:11:07

the... kind of popular press coverage

1:11:09

that initial studies do. Regardless of

1:11:12

whether or not the initial study

1:11:14

was positive or negative. In any

1:11:17

case, I do believe there are

1:11:19

other routes to calming down the

1:11:21

forebrain in the context of doing

1:11:24

this kind of work that just

1:11:26

like your thoughts on. When I

1:11:28

first wake up in the morning,

1:11:31

I'm in kind of a liminal

1:11:33

state, but the thing that I

1:11:36

don't want to think about comes

1:11:38

to my brain, I can't avoid

1:11:40

it. It's just like that that...

1:11:43

the protectors are not available. They're

1:11:45

still asleep. So that seems valuable.

1:11:47

I've tried recently to keep my

1:11:50

eyes close. Sometimes I'll get up

1:11:52

and use the bathroom, but keep

1:11:54

my eyes close. Stay in that

1:11:57

still state and explore the contours

1:11:59

of that thing. Provided it's done

1:12:02

safely and not anywhere near water.

1:12:04

cyclic hyperventilation breathwork done for a

1:12:06

few minute cycles you know you

1:12:09

know you know we think can

1:12:11

change the brain activities of the

1:12:13

forebrain kind of comes off of

1:12:16

line a bit so all these

1:12:18

things just do those put managers

1:12:21

to sleep put managers to sleep

1:12:23

like when you go to sleep

1:12:25

your managers go to sleep and

1:12:28

then you have these weird dreams

1:12:30

and that's because your pangsiles have

1:12:32

access to your mind now and

1:12:35

they're trying to give you signals

1:12:37

about what they want. The other

1:12:40

thing I'll say about psychedelics and

1:12:42

the breathing too is that as

1:12:44

your managers go to sleep and

1:12:47

your exiles start coming in, it

1:12:49

can seem really terrifying because these

1:12:51

parts are stuck in horrible places

1:12:54

often with a lot of terror.

1:12:56

And so what's called bad trips

1:12:58

is them trying to get attention.

1:13:01

So they'll come in and they'll

1:13:03

totally take over and you'll look

1:13:06

like you're having a panic attack.

1:13:08

But what we've learned, and you

1:13:10

know this happened a few times

1:13:13

last week, is instead of thinking

1:13:15

of it as a panic attack

1:13:17

or a bad trip, to welcome

1:13:20

it, here's a part that needs

1:13:22

a lot of attention. It's taken

1:13:25

over entirely, but if I were

1:13:27

to say, okay Andrew, I see

1:13:29

you're really scared. But how do

1:13:32

you feel toward this really scared

1:13:34

part that's here now? And I

1:13:36

could get you to say, well,

1:13:39

I feel sorry for it. Then

1:13:41

I would have you start to

1:13:44

get to know it and work

1:13:46

with it and comfort it, rather

1:13:48

than have a panic attack. You

1:13:51

would access calm and those sea

1:13:53

words. And then it becomes a

1:13:55

hugely useful healing of something that's

1:13:58

in you that's stuck in a

1:14:00

terrified place. I'd like to take

1:14:02

a quick break and acknowledge one

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to Function. And Martha taught me

1:16:13

this practice of, you know, when

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we think about the things that

1:16:18

create shame for ourselves, if we're

1:16:20

able to go up and really

1:16:22

look at those and own them

1:16:25

not from the perspective of, I'm

1:16:27

proud of them, but own them

1:16:29

as. in us and not of

1:16:32

us, you know, that it's incredibly

1:16:34

freeing and indeed it is so

1:16:37

free, right? It's like the, if

1:16:39

there were like a secret to

1:16:41

life, it would at least include

1:16:44

that. Yeah. Because... Let me wrap

1:16:46

up a bit for a second.

1:16:48

Yeah. Just as an example. Like

1:16:51

I do... where I have people

1:16:53

who work with their racism, speaking

1:16:55

of something very shameful, and a

1:16:58

lot of people say, I'm not

1:17:00

a racist, I don't have any

1:17:03

racism. But if I really convince

1:17:05

them to look inside and check,

1:17:07

they'll find there's a little part

1:17:10

in there that does spout racist

1:17:12

things when they meet somebody of

1:17:14

a different skin color, has these

1:17:17

white supremacy beliefs, and they're really

1:17:19

ashamed of it. So if I

1:17:22

were to have you focus on

1:17:24

that racist voice in there, we

1:17:26

would have to get a lot

1:17:29

of the parts that are ashamed

1:17:31

of it to step out, and

1:17:33

then I would have you get

1:17:36

curious about it, rather than ashamed

1:17:38

of it, and ask it about

1:17:41

where it picked up these beliefs.

1:17:43

And it could tell you. And

1:17:45

then I would ask, do you

1:17:48

like having to carry this racist

1:17:50

stuff? Usually I'll say no. If

1:17:52

it's ready, it's unloaded, we can

1:17:55

just unload it. We can just

1:17:57

unload it. So one of the

1:17:59

key things to know is these

1:18:02

parts are not the burdens they

1:18:04

care. They're all good. The little

1:18:07

guy who's got the racist rant

1:18:09

is a part that got stuck

1:18:11

with his beliefs. But when he

1:18:14

releases those beliefs, he transforms into

1:18:16

being a good. And the mistake,

1:18:18

our culture makes, the mistake that

1:18:21

most psychotherapies make, is to assume

1:18:23

that he is that he is

1:18:26

that he is that racist. rant

1:18:28

and to try to But it's

1:18:30

a different way of understanding even

1:18:33

very seemingly evil people that they're

1:18:35

dominated by these protectors and they're

1:18:37

so afraid of their exiles. And

1:18:40

they relate inside in the same

1:18:42

way they relate outside. So if

1:18:45

they hate parts themselves, they'll hate

1:18:47

people who resemble those parts of

1:18:49

them. They'll try to dominate those

1:18:52

people. Do you follow what I'm

1:18:54

saying? We hear all the time

1:18:56

that when we're upset about something,

1:18:59

it's something in ourselves that we're

1:19:01

really upset about. And for me,

1:19:03

that isn't always true, but that's

1:19:06

sometimes true. So if I'm upset

1:19:08

about the intolerance of good ideas

1:19:11

from people in opposite groups of

1:19:13

each other's good ideas. This logic

1:19:15

would say that I'm really just...

1:19:18

disapproving of that aspect of myself

1:19:20

that is like black and white

1:19:22

judgmental. Which we already established. Got

1:19:25

me. Then again you're the therapist.

1:19:27

So right. So is this always

1:19:30

true? Not always. Okay. But a

1:19:32

lot of the time. So if

1:19:34

you can come to have compassion

1:19:37

for that judgmental part of you

1:19:39

and not being battled with it

1:19:41

and actually see it as desperately

1:19:44

trying to help you be more

1:19:46

discerning and help it on burden

1:19:49

and get out of this role

1:19:51

that it's in. Because in the

1:19:53

role that it's in, it can

1:19:56

be destructive. We're not trying to

1:19:58

minimize that or say, you know,

1:20:00

when I say all parts are,

1:20:03

there are no bad parts, but

1:20:05

they can get into very destructive

1:20:07

roles and they can carry these

1:20:10

burdens from the past that can

1:20:12

drive them to be harmful. Part

1:20:15

of my work is to help

1:20:17

all that change and So if

1:20:19

you were to start a new

1:20:22

relationship with that judgmental part of

1:20:24

you, then you would see past

1:20:26

the judgmental parts of other people

1:20:29

and you could see the exiles

1:20:31

that drive those protectors and you

1:20:34

would have compassion for them. It

1:20:36

wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them

1:20:38

or stand up to them, but

1:20:41

you would do it with compassion

1:20:43

rather than from these hateful protectors.

1:20:45

I think it's important that people

1:20:48

hear that, namely that if we

1:20:50

get in touch with these parts

1:20:53

of ourselves that are protectors, that

1:20:55

it makes us less vulnerable, not

1:20:57

more vulnerable, both to quote-unquote attack,

1:21:00

but that also, I guess put

1:21:02

simply that in understanding... of ourselves

1:21:04

and compassion for ourselves, one develops

1:21:07

understanding and compassion for others. But

1:21:09

that doesn't mean that you're opening

1:21:11

yourself up for harm. That's right.

1:21:14

And the opposite is actually true.

1:21:16

The opposite is actually true, because

1:21:19

these protectors will generate often what

1:21:21

they fear. So by being so

1:21:23

protective, they'll create protectors in the

1:21:26

other that will attack, whereas if

1:21:28

they could stay in self, self

1:21:30

can be very protective. with those

1:21:33

seaward qualities, very forceful, sometimes pierced.

1:21:35

This idea, I'm definitely following, that

1:21:38

we will sometimes create in others,

1:21:40

you know, what we fear, because

1:21:42

it allows us to engage in

1:21:45

this unhealthy dynamic. It seems so

1:21:47

counterintuitive, right? Maybe we take a

1:21:49

kind of classic set of examples

1:21:52

that I think are pretty common.

1:21:54

a person who's codependent with somebody

1:21:57

who's a substance abuse addict or

1:21:59

somebody who's very timid and always

1:22:01

wants to pacify and somebody who's

1:22:04

very dominant. When I zoom out

1:22:06

from the second case it actually

1:22:08

makes me chuckle how crazy that

1:22:11

is because if you think about

1:22:13

it a person who is very

1:22:15

dominant doesn't need somebody very timid

1:22:18

in order to feel dominant right

1:22:20

they could probably feel

1:22:22

whatever powered is they need to

1:22:25

feel with somebody who is less

1:22:27

timid and maybe the relationship would

1:22:29

be healthier, but that's not how

1:22:32

people tend to other select. It's

1:22:34

kind of interesting. So it raises

1:22:37

a perhaps a bigger question. Why

1:22:39

do people select people that are

1:22:41

fundamentally bad for them? Okay, so

1:22:44

I did a book called You're

1:22:46

the one you've been waiting for

1:22:48

and in it I talked about

1:22:51

this whole issue and so... For

1:22:53

a lot of people, you get

1:22:56

hurt by your parent, and there

1:22:58

are parts that want to protect

1:23:00

you from your parent, but there

1:23:03

are other parts who are desperate,

1:23:05

who took on the worthlessness from

1:23:07

being rejected by your parent, and

1:23:10

are desperate for redemption. Do you

1:23:12

follow this? And so, as you

1:23:15

leave and you're looking for a

1:23:17

partner, that part from a subconscious

1:23:19

place, can influence your decision to

1:23:22

find somebody who resembles that parent

1:23:24

in their effort to be redeemed

1:23:26

again. Yeah, is this anything like

1:23:29

the sort of repetition compulsion? Yeah,

1:23:31

exactly. That we tend to repeat

1:23:33

a pattern over and over again

1:23:36

as an attempt to resolve, not

1:23:38

just a manifestation of like dysfunction.

1:23:41

That's a version of what I'm

1:23:43

talking about. And so you find

1:23:45

somebody who does resemble that person,

1:23:48

that parent. And unfortunately they do

1:23:50

resemble that parent. And so they'll

1:23:52

hurt you in the same way.

1:23:55

And then your protectors go into

1:23:57

one of four modes. They'll say.

1:24:00

I've got to change that person

1:24:02

back into who they're supposed to

1:24:05

be. So they'll try to change

1:24:07

the person's behavior. Or they'll

1:24:09

say, I've got to change myself,

1:24:11

so they'll be who they're supposed

1:24:13

to be. Or they'll say, oh, this wasn't

1:24:15

the redeemer after all. And they'll

1:24:18

go looking for the real redeemer

1:24:20

is still out there. And it's

1:24:22

always inside. And yeah, that's what I

1:24:24

try to do is to help them

1:24:27

see that that redeemer is inside of

1:24:29

them itself. And if we can go

1:24:31

to that exile who's got

1:24:33

this thing for this

1:24:35

parent-like person and help

1:24:37

it connect to self and

1:24:39

help it unburdened, that

1:24:42

whole repetition compulsion

1:24:44

disappears. Because now they

1:24:47

can take care of themselves.

1:24:49

They trust self to do it.

1:24:51

They don't need that from some

1:24:53

other person like that. And so

1:24:56

when we're working with couples

1:24:58

and... you always find some version

1:25:00

of that in couples, if we

1:25:03

can get each of them to become their

1:25:05

own good attachment figure and

1:25:07

good caretaker inside, that

1:25:09

frees up the partner because

1:25:11

when this exile is leading

1:25:14

a relationship, your partner

1:25:16

feels a lot of sort of demands

1:25:18

or feels a lot like your

1:25:21

partner has to take care of

1:25:23

that young part of you and

1:25:25

can't, can't fully do it. So

1:25:27

there's always this. This sense of

1:25:29

a burden, you know, I'm

1:25:31

sorry. Yeah Yeah, it's so

1:25:34

interesting how romantic relationships are

1:25:36

where these patterns get Repeated

1:25:38

and at the same time I

1:25:41

numerous examples of my life of

1:25:43

Healthy relationships. Is that usually

1:25:45

the case because people have

1:25:47

done the work before or

1:25:50

because they had a minimum

1:25:52

of trauma in their upbringing

1:25:54

both? Yeah, what percentage of

1:25:57

kids? adults as well.

1:25:59

Do you think... minimum of

1:26:01

trauma are just because of

1:26:03

the way they're wired and

1:26:05

the way the stuff is

1:26:08

organized within them that they

1:26:10

naturally attach to a good

1:26:12

partner and are pretty healthy.

1:26:15

Is it like 25% 30%?

1:26:17

Does it? I really can't

1:26:19

say because I my sample

1:26:22

is very skewed. I'm working

1:26:24

with psychotherapy patients who always

1:26:26

have a lot of trauma.

1:26:29

So I really can't say.

1:26:31

I'm very biased. Half of

1:26:33

marriages in this country end

1:26:36

in divorce, and presumably of

1:26:38

the ones that don't, I'm

1:26:40

guessing somewhere between a half

1:26:43

and a quarter of those

1:26:45

people are really unhappy. Sounds

1:26:47

so pessimistic, but if you

1:26:50

just look at the numbers.

1:26:52

And I'm an optimist. I

1:26:54

already acknowledge that I don't

1:26:57

like to think about bad

1:26:59

stuff. And you know, so,

1:27:01

yeah, I'm guessing that a

1:27:04

lot of people repeat these

1:27:06

patterns, but it seemed as

1:27:08

if maybe 20, 30 years

1:27:11

ago, because these ideas weren't

1:27:13

discussed really, so many fewer

1:27:15

people were in any kind

1:27:18

of analysis or personal exploration

1:27:20

work that... as a

1:27:22

society we defaulted to just

1:27:24

sort of role execution. You're

1:27:26

a father and a husband,

1:27:28

so you do certain things,

1:27:30

and you don't do certain

1:27:32

things. You're a wife and

1:27:34

a mother, so you do

1:27:36

certain things, and you don't

1:27:38

do certain things, and so

1:27:41

on. And I think nowadays

1:27:43

there's a lot of discussion

1:27:45

about, you know, is there

1:27:47

a resurgence of organized religion?

1:27:49

Because we've drifted so far

1:27:51

from these kind of core

1:27:53

structures, I mean... Love your

1:27:55

thoughts on that and also

1:27:57

what you think doing this

1:27:59

kind of internal work on

1:28:01

oneself without requiring any input

1:28:03

or participation from another what

1:28:05

the value of that is.

1:28:07

It sounds like there's tremendous

1:28:09

value to just doing this

1:28:11

work for oneself, maybe with

1:28:13

someone trained in IFS. Yeah,

1:28:15

I mean, like I was

1:28:17

saying, there's a lot you

1:28:19

can do with working with

1:28:21

your protectors and helping them

1:28:23

get to know self. Like

1:28:25

we didn't do it, but

1:28:27

had I had you asked

1:28:29

that Teddy, that titanium Teddy

1:28:32

bear how old it thought

1:28:34

you were. and just really

1:28:36

waited for the answer. Most

1:28:38

people will get a single

1:28:40

digit. It still thinks you're

1:28:42

very young, and it still

1:28:44

thinks it has to protect

1:28:46

you the way it did

1:28:48

when you were very young.

1:28:50

And just even updating it

1:28:52

creates a huge amount of

1:28:54

relief with these protectors. So

1:28:56

there's a lot that can

1:28:58

be done just by working

1:29:00

with protectors, introducing them to

1:29:02

self, helping them see they

1:29:04

don't have to keep doing

1:29:06

us all the time. Some

1:29:08

protections, it's very hard for

1:29:10

them to totally drop their

1:29:12

weapons until what they protect

1:29:14

has been healed. So that's

1:29:16

where the therapist comes in.

1:29:18

So, you know, there are

1:29:20

coaches doing this work, for

1:29:22

example, and they'll work with

1:29:25

some executive, and they'll do

1:29:27

great, and then they'll get

1:29:29

to an exile, and then

1:29:31

they'll... Have the person see

1:29:33

a IFS therapist for a

1:29:35

couple sessions to heal the

1:29:37

exa and then come back

1:29:39

Because you know coaches aren't

1:29:41

trained as therapists and right

1:29:43

So yeah, there's still need

1:29:45

for therapists But yeah, but

1:29:47

you can do a lot

1:29:49

on your own I'm struck

1:29:51

by how experiential it is

1:29:53

as opposed to just conceptual

1:29:55

I mean obviously the concepts

1:29:57

are important, but I think

1:29:59

Internal Family Systems was described

1:30:01

for me previously, kind of

1:30:03

mapped out for me on

1:30:05

paper. I got a sense

1:30:07

of it actually with some

1:30:09

objects placed out and these

1:30:11

and it was helpful but

1:30:13

it I think just having

1:30:16

done a little bit of

1:30:18

it today the only by

1:30:20

actually feeling the sensations in

1:30:22

the body associated with it

1:30:24

does actually really make sense

1:30:26

to me. I mean it

1:30:28

made sense cognitively but that's

1:30:30

so very different. It's very

1:30:32

removed. Yeah it's like me

1:30:34

telling people you know get

1:30:36

out and get sunlight in

1:30:38

your eyes in the morning

1:30:40

and set your circadian rhythm

1:30:42

like you can know that

1:30:44

you can know the underlying

1:30:46

mechanisms, the neurons, the hormones,

1:30:48

etc. But at some level

1:30:50

until you experience what that's

1:30:52

like for two or three

1:30:54

days in a row it's

1:30:56

you might as well be

1:30:58

reading about I don't know.

1:31:00

titanium teddy bears. Yeah. Exactly

1:31:02

and that's why I'm so

1:31:04

grateful to you that you

1:31:07

were willing to try it

1:31:09

and because it's true as

1:31:11

I describe it to people

1:31:13

they don't really get it

1:31:15

until they actually feel it

1:31:17

experience it and it it

1:31:19

is very different from many

1:31:21

other therapies which are much

1:31:23

more cognitively based because we're

1:31:25

we're trying to bypass that

1:31:27

and actually get to this

1:31:29

raw stuff in here. in

1:31:31

order to be deliberately repetitive.

1:31:33

I wonder if it would

1:31:35

be useful to the listeners

1:31:37

to, would it be possible

1:31:39

to just pose the questions

1:31:41

to them as an exercise

1:31:43

that they could do in

1:31:45

real time? Totally, yeah. Thank

1:31:47

you so much. I think

1:31:49

that would be tremendously valuable.

1:31:51

So I'm gonna have to

1:31:53

erase myself here. For once

1:31:55

I'm gonna be quiet for

1:31:57

a little while folks and

1:32:00

you are the lucky patient

1:32:02

that gets to talk to.

1:32:04

Dr. Schwartz here and he's

1:32:06

going to pose a series

1:32:08

of questions and we'll allow

1:32:10

some moments of break or

1:32:12

silence for you to be

1:32:14

able to tap into the

1:32:16

answers to these in real

1:32:18

time. That way you don't

1:32:20

have to create a parallel

1:32:22

construction of what we did

1:32:24

earlier. Yeah, and let me

1:32:26

lead by saying, please don't

1:32:28

do this. if you have

1:32:30

fear about doing it. But

1:32:32

if you're interested in some

1:32:34

inner exploration, then I'll lead

1:32:36

you through some of the

1:32:38

steps. So as you've been

1:32:40

listening to our conversation on

1:32:42

speaking to listeners, you may

1:32:44

be thinking about some of

1:32:46

your own parts, particularly your

1:32:48

own protectors. And if you

1:32:51

can't think of any, most

1:32:53

people have a kind of

1:32:55

critic inside or part that

1:32:57

makes them work too hard

1:32:59

or a part that takes

1:33:01

care of too many people.

1:33:03

So I'm going to invite

1:33:05

you to pick a protective

1:33:07

part to try to get

1:33:09

to know for a few

1:33:11

minutes. And just notice that

1:33:13

inner voice or that emotion.

1:33:15

that thought pattern, that sensation,

1:33:17

just focus on it exclusively

1:33:19

for a second. And as

1:33:21

you do that, notice where

1:33:23

it seems to be located

1:33:25

in your body or around

1:33:27

your body. Just take a

1:33:29

second with that. And some

1:33:31

people don't find a location.

1:33:33

Some people still sense it,

1:33:35

but it's not clear where

1:33:37

it seems to be located.

1:33:39

If you do find it

1:33:42

in or around your body,

1:33:44

then just focus on it

1:33:46

there. And as you focus

1:33:48

on it, notice how you

1:33:50

feel toward it. And by

1:33:52

that I mean, do you

1:33:54

dislike it? Are

1:33:57

you afraid of it? Do

1:34:01

you resent how

1:34:03

it dominates? Do

1:34:05

you depend on

1:34:07

it? So you

1:34:09

have a relationship

1:34:11

with this part

1:34:14

of you. And

1:34:16

if you feel

1:34:18

anything except a

1:34:20

kind of openness

1:34:22

or curiosity or

1:34:24

willingness to get

1:34:26

to know it,

1:34:30

Then that's coming from

1:34:32

other parts that have

1:34:34

been trying to deal

1:34:36

with it And we're

1:34:38

just going to ask

1:34:40

those other parts of

1:34:42

you to relax back

1:34:44

for just a few

1:34:46

minutes So you can

1:34:48

get to know it.

1:34:50

We're not going to

1:34:52

have it take over