0:02

Hi, I'm Morgan Sun, host of Close All

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Tabs from KQPD, where every week we

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reveal how the online world collides with

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everyday life. You don't know what's true

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or not, because you don't know if AI

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was involved in it. So my first reaction

0:15

was, ha-ha, this is so funny, and my

0:17

next reaction was, wait a minute, I'm a

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journalist, is this real? And I think we

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will see a Twitch streamer, or president,

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maybe within our liftimes, you can

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find Close all tabs, wherever you

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listen to podcasts. This

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episode of Hyper Fixed is brought

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Why are people so worried about sport?

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Why wine? Why video games? I'm Brian

0:59

Lowry and in this season of my

1:02

podcast, Know What You See, I'm asking

1:04

a simple question, but a really big

1:06

one. What's the point? In conversations with

1:08

people with a variety of passions and

1:10

obsessions, we give the chance to look

1:12

through a window and see what it

1:14

means to truly focus on the realm

1:16

of human experience. Join me on Know

1:18

What You See. Know What You See.

1:20

New episodes begin November 26. Hi,

1:24

I'm Alex Goldman, and this

1:27

is hyperfixed. On the show,

1:29

listeners write in with their problems,

1:31

big and small, and I solve

1:33

them. Or at least I try. And if

1:35

I don't, I at least give a good

1:38

reason why I can't. This week, only

1:40

to be consumed in Canada. Okay,

1:42

so for the last few months,

1:44

we have been chasing a

1:46

seemingly simple question that came

1:48

to us from one of

1:50

our listeners in Vancouver. My

1:53

name is Ann. I live

1:55

in Vancouver, BC, Canada, and

1:58

that's where I am. On is

2:00

a total sweetie pie. I mean,

2:02

did you hear that laugh? On is

2:04

vegan. He's studying to be a musical

2:07

therapist, and he lives with six roommates

2:09

in a collective house where everyone

2:11

shares responsibilities and organizes adorably wholesome activities

2:13

for the group to do together. Which

2:16

honestly, to me, sounds like a socialist

2:18

utopia. You've got to have like the

2:20

right mix of personalities, but it's a,

2:23

if you get the magic, if

2:25

you can make it happen, it can

2:27

be a really great way to live.

2:29

So to summarize, on is adorable. His

2:32

home is adorable. We all love

2:34

on. But this question he submitted, we

2:36

hate this question. It's been the bane

2:38

of our existence for the entirety of

2:41

2025. And as much as we love

2:43

on, we're still kind of mad at

2:45

it for asking it. And part

2:47

of the reason this question is so

2:50

frustrating is because on its face, it

2:52

feels like it should be an incredibly

2:54

easy question to answer. So back

2:56

in December on in his roommates were

2:59

at home in their kitchen getting ready

3:01

to do one of their adorably wholesome

3:03

activities We wanted to decorate gingerbread cookies

3:06

because it's that time of year got

3:08

all the stuff to decorate them

3:10

And they have all this fun decorating

3:12

stuff to work with. They've got sprinkles

3:15

and candy. They've got those Betty Crocker

3:17

icing tubes in three different colors

3:19

and special nozzles for drawing lines and

3:21

designs and they're getting ready to spruce

3:24

up these gingerbread cookies But again, On's

3:26

vegan. This is a vegan household. So

3:28

before the roommates get started, On picks

3:31

up one of the tubes of

3:33

the Betty Cracker icing, and he looks

3:35

at the nutrition facts. Just to make

3:37

sure none of the ingredients we purchased

3:40

were accidentally not vegan. And while

3:42

On standing there, looking over the list

3:44

of ingredients, he sees a strange label

3:46

on this tube. These tubes of icing

3:49

said, only to be consumed with other

3:51

foods on them. And I've never seen

3:53

that warning before. On sent me photos

3:55

of the icing in question. And at

3:57

first glance, it looks like your everyday

4:00

run of... the milk supermarket icing. There's

4:02

a pretty picture of a cake on

4:04

the front and all the labels are

4:06

in English and French because, you

4:08

know, it's from Canada. But on

4:10

the back, just below the nutrition

4:12

facts, there is this weird label

4:14

only to be consumed with other

4:16

foods. And it's written in like

4:19

bright red capital letters as if

4:21

consuming this icing without other foods

4:23

presents some kind of incredible safety

4:26

hazard. But the label makes no

4:28

specification about what that hazard might

4:30

be. What could possibly be going

4:32

on here? Well, that's what I

4:35

wanted to know. I looked at

4:37

it and I thought, that's weird.

4:39

Someone surely has asked about this

4:41

on the internet. And I typed

4:44

it into Google. I put the

4:46

quote marks around it just to

4:48

make sure I was only getting

4:50

results that had the specific disclaimer.

4:52

And the only thing that came

4:54

up was two articles about rutabagas.

4:56

What? We looked into this, and

4:59

apparently there was once an

5:01

article in which the author claimed that,

5:03

quote, there are many people who think

5:05

rutabagas should only be eaten with

5:07

other foods, unquote. And that's, as

5:09

far as I can tell, the

5:11

only place on the internet that

5:14

has been indexed by Google, uh...

5:16

that has the phrase only to

5:18

be consumed with other foods on

5:20

it. Bizarre. I've never encountered a

5:22

situation like this. Okay, so I

5:24

have some, I have, I have

5:26

some follow-up questions, obviously. When you

5:28

and your housemate saw it, what

5:30

did you, like, what was the

5:32

reaction? Like, how are we, how

5:34

are we handling this? You

5:37

know, I don't think anyone

5:39

was really concerned about it,

5:41

exactly. But everyone was sort

5:43

of, like, like, what does

5:45

it mean? Like, how much

5:47

other food do you need

5:49

to have proportionally before you

5:51

are consuming it on its own?

5:54

Look. Look. I get it. This

5:56

isn't an urgent question.

5:58

Not even... and it's

6:00

even small by hyper fixed standards.

6:02

And we've gone after some pretty

6:04

small stuff. But the novelty of

6:07

it intrigued him, and as for

6:09

me, I was looking forward to

6:11

asking experts to explain what exactly

6:13

constitutes food, or for that matter,

6:15

like what amount of other food

6:17

do you need before you're no

6:19

longer eating icing on its own?

6:22

Because that's just the kind of

6:24

bullshit philosophical question I can imagine

6:26

myself getting into arguments with friends

6:28

about, for years. Like, let me

6:30

give you an example. I don't

6:32

know if you've seen Gremlins too,

6:35

but there is a scene in

6:37

Gremlins too, where Billy Peltzer, the

6:39

hero of the movie, is explaining

6:41

the rules of the Gremlins, which

6:43

is that like, you can't get

6:45

water on them or they'll multiply.

6:47

They can't eat after midnight or

6:50

they'll turn into scaly green monsters.

6:52

They hate bright light. So he's

6:54

explaining all the rules, and one

6:56

of the people he's talking to

6:58

says, oh, wait a minute, This

7:00

guy is attacked by a Gremlin,

7:03

and I have been thinking about

7:05

and arguing about this question since

7:07

June of 1990. So yeah, it's

7:09

a small question, but I'm invested.

7:11

And I asked on, what would

7:13

make this feel resolved for you?

7:15

There are a couple of ways

7:18

I could consider this solved. I

7:20

would love to know the real

7:22

story behind why it is on

7:24

there, who made the decision or

7:26

why the decision was made, or

7:28

a... A credible theory as to

7:31

specifically what might have led to

7:33

this specific decision. Failing that, I'd

7:35

love to know the answer to

7:37

how much icing makes the other

7:39

food not other food. So I'm

7:41

not running afoul of this particular

7:43

disclaimer. I mean, honestly, it feels

7:46

like to me like the first

7:48

answer is easier than the second

7:50

answer. The second answer feels deeply

7:52

philosophical to me. I'd be happy

7:54

with either. If you can answer

7:56

both, that's even better. I mean,

7:59

I think that you have to

8:01

look inward to answer the second

8:03

one, but I feel like we

8:05

can probably. But you know what?

8:07

I take that back because someone

8:09

put it there for a reason.

8:11

That's not there for no reason.

8:14

And it's on like Betty Crocker.

8:16

It's the biggest, it's the frosting

8:18

company. Something's going on here. They're

8:20

not telling, they're trying to hide

8:22

something from us. And frankly, I'm

8:24

not going to let it happen. All

8:26

right. So here we go. We have two questions

8:29

to answer here. The first is, what's the

8:31

deal with the label? And the second

8:33

is, essentially, how do I abide by

8:35

this label? And initially, I thought the first

8:37

question was going to be very easy

8:39

to answer, because theoretically, all we have

8:41

to do is call up Betty Crocker

8:44

corporate and ask them this question. But I

8:46

really should have known better. So many of

8:48

you know that the idea for hyperfix

8:50

started as a segment on my old

8:52

podcast reply all. What you probably don't

8:54

know is that that that that segment.

8:57

which was called super tech support,

8:59

started in part because we realized

9:01

that when you're trying to talk to

9:03

someone at a large company, whether it's Amazon

9:05

or Betty Crocker, it's basically impossible to

9:07

find the specific person you need

9:10

to talk to. When you're on the phone

9:12

with customer service people or even corporate

9:14

media relations teams, 99% of

9:16

the time they're operating from a script.

9:18

And if you ask a question that falls

9:20

outside of the script, it can land as

9:22

if you are trying to talk to them in

9:25

Esperanto. Which is what we found when

9:27

we were trying to communicate with Betty

9:29

Crocker. But this time, in this story, this

9:31

particular instance, the corporate

9:33

cluster fuck was on a level

9:35

that I have never experienced before. When

9:38

we called Betty Crocker's customer service, they

9:40

were like, oh, huh, that's a weird

9:42

label. I don't know what that means.

9:44

But we'll connect you with our media

9:46

relations team. You can see what they

9:49

say. We leave a message for media

9:51

relations, nobody calls back. So we call

9:53

Betty Cracker's manufacturer, signature brands. Again, we

9:55

leave a message and get a response.

9:57

Then we call Betty Cracker's parent company.

10:00

General Mills and when they search the barcode

10:02

for the icing they're like oh actually

10:04

it doesn't even look like we make this

10:06

product it's made by Hometown Food Company

10:08

and when we call Hometown Food Company they're

10:10

like I don't know why General Mills

10:12

would give you our number we make Pillsbury

10:14

products not Betty Crocker. So

10:19

without a way into the corporate

10:21

world of Betty Crocker we're like you

10:23

know what maybe we should just

10:25

try calling the real Betty Crocker. I'm

10:27

the real Betty the real Betty

10:29

right here Dr. Betty Crocker. This is

10:31

Betty Crocker yes that is actually

10:33

her name no she is not affiliated

10:36

with Betty Crocker the brand but

10:38

she is a registered dietitian and nutritionist

10:40

and she serves as the director

10:42

of nutrition services for the Lodi Unified

10:44

School District in Lodi, California. We

10:46

are a part of the largest restaurant

10:48

chain in the United States of

10:50

America known as school food service school

10:52

nutrition kind of one in the

10:55

same so we make sure the kiddos

10:57

are fed every school day breakfast

10:59

lunch after school and in the summer

11:01

just to show off a little

11:03

bit we also serve during all summer

11:05

things. I know we're being a

11:07

little cutesy contacting Dr. Betty Crocker for

11:09

a story about Betty Crocker the

11:11

brand which yeah okay sure but there

11:14

was also a strategic motivation behind

11:16

this move. School nutrition services report to

11:18

the US Department of Agriculture and

11:20

they derive their policies from the official

11:22

dietary guidelines for Americans and because

11:24

they're feeding America's kids the school system

11:26

takes those guidelines and applies even

11:28

more rigorous standards. For example if the

11:30

guideline says that half of your

11:33

daily grains should come from whole grains

11:35

the regulation for schools says 80 %

11:37

they're just way more hardcore about

11:39

all these rules and regulations so we

11:41

figured if there's any reason why

11:43

this product should not be eaten on

11:45

its own Dr. Betty Crocker is

11:47

probably gonna know about it but when

11:50

we told her about this label

11:52

she literally laughed in our faces. What

11:56

does that mean? nutritionist

12:00

have you ever seen anything like that

12:02

on a food product? No I have not.

12:04

Are you punking me right now? I

12:06

assured Dr. Betty that I was not

12:08

punking her, that this was a real

12:10

label on a real product purchased in

12:12

the real country of Canada and she

12:14

was like look I've never seen this

12:17

before but as a dietitian I don't

12:19

think there's anything dangerous about eating straight

12:21

icing. And as to the question of

12:23

why this label is here, maybe this

12:25

is some kind of Canadian regulatory

12:27

thing. Or...

12:29

Maybe somebody made a mistake. Maybe the

12:31

world's just waiting for you to

12:33

call the right person. Maybe. And

12:35

say hey, what's going on here?

12:39

Now I felt pretty confident that this

12:41

was not a mistake. I have

12:43

done dozens of stories on consumer

12:46

products, consumer product design and I

12:48

know how many rounds of reviews

12:50

packaging has to go through before

12:52

it gets approved. And like yeah

12:54

mistakes do happen but in this

12:56

case it seemed pretty unlikely. It's

12:58

printed in red on its

13:00

own in all caps and it draws

13:02

a lot of attention to itself. So

13:04

if you're going to miss something on

13:06

the label it's likely not going to be this.

13:10

However Dr. Betty's other

13:12

theory about how maybe this label

13:14

is a response to some specific

13:16

Canadian policy. That doesn't

13:18

sound crazy at all because why would

13:20

you put a big red warning on your

13:22

product that makes it sound dangerous unless

13:24

someone was telling you you absolutely had to.

13:26

And after a little googling and a

13:29

visit to the grocery store we discovered that

13:31

this label is not on the US version

13:33

of the same product. So with

13:35

our next step we decided to reach

13:37

out to some Canadian regulators. One

13:39

of those regulators, the Canadian Food

13:41

Inspection Agency which is essentially

13:43

like the enforcement arm of Canada's

13:46

Food and Drug Administration got

13:48

back to us and said quote

13:50

this statement does not appear to be

13:52

related to any law enforced by the

13:54

Canadian Food Inspection Agency. In

13:56

other words we've never seen

13:58

this label and we - know why it's

14:00

there. And for that reason, they said,

14:02

if we want an answer to this

14:05

question, we were going to have to

14:07

go to the people who chose to

14:09

put it there. Presumably, the very same

14:11

people that told us they'd never seen

14:13

it before. I'm talking, of course, about

14:15

the people working inside the corporate black

14:18

box, that is Betty Crocker. And the

14:20

shittiest part of it, is that in

14:22

my heart, I knew they were right.

14:24

Eventually we were going to have to

14:26

go back to the corporate black box

14:28

and try to try to convince them

14:31

that this was a question worth elevating

14:33

to someone who knew the answer. But

14:35

we couldn't do it yet, because we

14:37

knew if we went back with the

14:39

same question, they were probably going to

14:41

give us the same answer. So we

14:44

huddled up and decided that what we

14:46

needed to do was find a theory

14:48

so good that it was worth sending

14:50

what's called a no surprises letter. If

14:52

you've ever seen a movie about journalism,

14:54

there's probably been a moment in it,

14:56

where the reporter's about to blow the

14:59

roof off some big story, but before

15:01

she does, she has to give the

15:03

bad guy an opportunity to comment and

15:05

opportunity to comment. This is what it's

15:07

going to say. So if there's anything

15:09

you want to tell us before we

15:12

do, you better do it now. So

15:14

that's what we were going to do.

15:16

As soon as we got something that

15:18

felt like a solid theory. And in

15:20

order to do that, we reached out

15:22

to specialists from a bunch of related

15:25

fields. And we got back two pretty

15:27

excellent theories. It's got to something specific

15:29

to Canada. This is Jen David Connolly.

15:31

She designs food packaging here in the

15:33

US, but some of the products she

15:35

designs are distributed in Canada. So she

15:38

does have some familiarity with Canadian food

15:40

labeling requirements. And when we sent her

15:42

our question, she immediately started looking through

15:44

them again. And I think I found

15:46

something. I think I found the reason

15:48

why it's on there. Get out of

15:51

here. Are you serious? I think so.

15:53

I think so. I would say I'm

15:55

like 99. 0.99% sure, but again, I'm

15:57

not an expert. It's really complicated language.

15:59

But what I found was so the

16:01

U.S. doesn't have this, but Canada and

16:03

I know some other countries do. They're

16:06

requiring front of package food kind of

16:08

callouts, warnings like required declarations,

16:10

if you will, of certain

16:13

nutrients that exceed certain levels.

16:15

So like sugars, fats, and

16:17

sodium. If they're in excess

16:19

of certain levels, you have

16:22

to put this kind of

16:24

really bold. kind of icon

16:26

callout on the front of her

16:28

package. So I dug into that

16:30

and being a sugary product, it

16:32

made sense. Now there's certain exemptions

16:34

in this, as far as I

16:36

understood it, again, it's kind of

16:38

complicated in nuanced language, but there

16:40

are certain exemptions, one of them

16:42

being if the food is intended

16:45

to be consumed with other foods. It

16:47

can be exempt from that front of

16:49

package requirement. Oh my God. Of

16:51

course. I mean, not of course.

16:53

That's ridiculous. I mean, it is

16:55

ridiculous, but it's also totally

16:58

believable, right? Like, what a

17:00

perfect label for skirting a

17:02

regulatory hurdle. Rather than calling

17:04

out how bad your food product is

17:06

for people, you just tell them to

17:08

drown it out with more food. And

17:10

as for why on-head and seen a

17:13

label like this on the other icing

17:15

packages in Canada, it's because it's

17:17

a new policy, and companies have

17:20

until January 1st, 2026 to comply

17:22

with it. So Betty Crocker might just

17:24

be a little bit ahead of the curve

17:26

on this one Okay, so that's theory one

17:28

theory two came from a guy

17:31

named Glenford Jamieson I need to be

17:33

clear here. I don't ask for

17:35

General Mills. I don't have any

17:37

specific knowledge of Betty Crocker's products

17:39

Longtime consumer first sign of comment

17:42

or I guess as you could

17:44

probably tell by his lengthy disclaimer

17:46

about his expertise Glenford is an

17:48

attorney And I know that his phone line

17:50

is a little rough, but he very graciously

17:52

sat in his car at the beach while

17:55

he was on vacation to do this interview

17:57

with us. So we took what we could

17:59

get. Anyhow, we reached out to

18:02

him because we'd started harboring our own

18:04

little theory that this label had something

18:06

to do with a class action lawsuit.

18:08

Like, maybe there had been one, or

18:10

maybe Betty Crocker was trying to

18:12

protect itself from a bad faith lawsuit

18:15

in the future. But since the label

18:17

was only on the Canadian version

18:19

of the icing, whatever happened, or

18:21

whatever could happen, seemed only to

18:23

be of concern in Canada. So

18:25

we texted the only lawyer we know

18:27

in Canada, who practices tree law. By

18:29

the way, shout out, Greg, we love

18:31

you, buddy. And we told him about

18:34

this weird label question we had. And

18:36

he was like, oh, I know exactly who

18:38

you need to talk to. And he put us

18:40

in touch with Glenford because his law

18:42

firm is the only firm in Canada

18:44

that specializes in food policy law. And

18:47

when we asked him about the label,

18:49

he was the first person we spoke

18:51

to who didn't go like, what the

18:53

hell is that supposed to mean? In

18:55

fact, he seemed totally unfazed. He also

18:57

seemed not at all convinced

18:59

by our class action lawsuit

19:01

theory because he said those

19:04

aren't really common in Canada,

19:06

but he did have a

19:08

different theory. I think is

19:10

a really funny ingredient because

19:12

really meant to use the pen

19:15

or a way to communicate a

19:17

message in an edible way. And

19:19

so when they're designing

19:21

that product, it's likely...

19:23

The first thing that they want is

19:26

they want a texture that's going to

19:28

sort of be coherent to stay together.

19:30

The second thing they're going to want

19:32

is they're going to want to

19:34

be brighter than most products. And

19:37

so because of that, they're likely

19:39

going to lead into food coloring.

19:41

And in Canada, food coloring is

19:43

an additive and it's governed by

19:45

something called the list of permitted

19:47

food colors. In Canada, just like in

19:50

the US, food dies are a hot

19:52

topic. California's even banned the use

19:54

of certain food colors in school lunches, because

19:56

there's a concern that the chemicals in them

19:58

can cause behavioral problems or... cancer in

20:00

children. But there's not a lot

20:02

of consensus on that. In Canada,

20:04

we have this list of permitted

20:06

food colors. It simply says, what

20:08

is the added is? It's like,

20:10

what is the food color? What

20:13

is the purpose of the use

20:15

of the food color? And then

20:17

what is the maximum levels? So

20:19

if you go to this Canadian

20:21

government website, there's a spreadsheet that

20:23

has a list of food colors

20:25

and the amount of each color

20:27

you can use based on what

20:29

you're using them for and what

20:31

kind of dye it is. And

20:33

for the dye in An's icing

20:35

tubes? And it will say something

20:37

along the lines of, if it's

20:39

used singly, so if it's used

20:41

apart from anything else, the amount

20:43

is not to exceed, often it's

20:45

300 parts per million. So this

20:47

additive can exist in icing sugar,

20:50

but not to exceed 300 parts

20:52

per million if the function is

20:54

for it to be used singly.

20:56

In other words, the Canadian Food

20:58

Inspection Agency is telling manufacturers not

21:00

to use this product in high

21:02

concentrations, presumably because it magnifies whatever

21:04

harmful effects the food dye is

21:06

believed to have. So by putting

21:08

this disclaimer on the Betty Crocker

21:10

icing tubes, it's possible that would

21:12

then allow the manufacturer to use

21:14

a higher concentration of food coloring

21:16

for a brighter, more vibrant color.

21:18

And so I think what you're

21:20

seeing on that label is the

21:22

way for the manufacturer to say

21:25

to the consumer, but really the

21:27

regulator, this product is not intended

21:29

to be used singly. Maybe it's

21:31

near or potentially exceeds 300 parts

21:33

per million color because the function

21:35

of the thing is truly to

21:37

be a bright ink, effectively, to

21:39

write a message on top of

21:41

a cake where those parts per

21:43

million will be diluted to something

21:45

effectively meaningless depending on how many

21:47

layers are on that cake. So

21:53

now we're armed with

21:56

two very solid

21:58

theories for our no

22:00

surprises letter. We reach

22:02

back. out to Betty Crocker, General Mills,

22:04

and signature brands. And guys, remember when I

22:07

said that this question has been the

22:09

bane of our existence for the entirety of

22:11

2025? This is the shit I was

22:13

talking about, because our No Surprises letter didn't

22:15

change anything. We called, we emailed,

22:18

we tweeted, and like, I really

22:20

hope that this doesn't get anyone

22:22

in trouble, but on those front

22:24

lines of communication where the

22:26

company meets the world. The

22:28

intransigence is stunning. So we

22:30

just started trying to reach out

22:33

to anybody we could think of.

22:35

We were emailing friends, we posted

22:37

to our discord and our Twitter,

22:39

asking anybody to connect us with

22:41

someone inside of any one of

22:43

these companies. And where the Betty

22:46

Crocker black box fails, the hyperfixed

22:48

discord delivers. The community came through

22:50

and connected us with some folks

22:52

inside of General Mills. And

22:54

that's when we learned that with

22:57

the exception of Betty Crocker frosting,

22:59

all of Betty Crocker's cake and

23:01

cookie decorating stuff, including ons

23:03

tubes of icing, is actually

23:05

made by signature brands. The Betty

23:07

Crocker name is just licensed to them.

23:09

We also learned that signature brands,

23:12

which started as a mom and

23:14

pop business in Ocala, Florida, control

23:16

something like an 80% share of

23:18

the entire cake decorating market. So

23:21

at that point it was like... The blindfold

23:23

is off. We know exactly

23:25

who our target is. And

23:27

we had promised on that

23:29

we would not stop until

23:31

we found him in answer.

23:33

So with that in mind,

23:36

Hypervix producer Amore Yates reached

23:38

out to signature brands

23:40

legal team and they put us

23:42

in touch with the CEO of signature

23:45

brands. The CEO! We were right

23:47

on the top of the mountain!

23:51

After the break, we

23:53

get our answer to

23:56

An's question, and

23:58

we find

24:00

out. Which

24:02

of

24:05

our

24:08

theories

24:11

prove

24:14

to

24:16

be correct? I have two

24:18

cats, Snuggle and Furball, and

24:20

Furball is a bit of

24:23

a weirdo, which I suppose

24:25

is what happens when you

24:27

name your cat, Furball. But

24:29

she has for many years

24:31

required her own litter box

24:33

to keep from pooping around

24:35

the house. That is until

24:37

I replaced Snuggle's cat litter

24:39

with pretty litter, and now

24:41

she uses his box. It

24:43

could be it's non-clumping formula

24:45

traps odor and moisture. It

24:47

could be because it's ultra-absorbed,

24:49

lightweight, lightweight and low-and-low-low-out. or

24:51

have huge kitty litter bags

24:53

taking up space. But also,

24:56

she's a cat. So, I

24:58

mean, it could be anything.

25:00

Those little dudes are pretty

25:02

mysterious. Pretty Litter helps keep

25:04

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25:06

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25:08

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25:10

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25:12

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25:14

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25:16

litter.com/hyperfixed to save for details.

25:18

Welcome back to the show.

25:20

So after months of banging

25:22

our heads against the wall,

25:24

all we really had to

25:27

show for it was like

25:29

a couple of solid theories.

25:31

And even though Ann was

25:33

totally fine with those theories

25:35

being his answer, we weren't.

25:37

We felt like this had

25:39

to be answerable and we

25:41

were letting him down if

25:43

we didn't pull it off.

25:45

So we hunkered down. and

25:47

we focused on our real

25:49

target, the company that manufactured

25:51

on's Betty Crocker icing signature

25:53

brands. And once we did

25:55

that, everything that we'd spent...

25:57

months trying to get an

26:00

answer to came together so

26:02

quickly like in a matter

26:04

of days. It started with a more

26:06

sending signature brand CEO Joe ends our

26:08

no surprises letter. She told him about

26:10

the icing that Ann had purchased in Vancouver,

26:12

the weird label on the back, she told

26:14

him that we had confirmed with the Canadian

26:17

Food Inspection Agency that it was not a

26:19

legal requirement, and she told him about the

26:21

two theories we were working with, the first

26:23

being that the sugar content might be too

26:26

high to be eaten on its own, and

26:28

the second being that the food colouring concentration

26:30

in the icing either exceeded or nearly exceeded

26:32

Canadian standards. By the next day,

26:34

CEO Joe had gotten back to us, and

26:36

for the first time in our investigation, Someone

26:39

at a frosting company

26:41

didn't tell us, and I'm paraphrasing

26:44

here, we have no idea

26:46

what you're talking about,

26:48

please leave us alone. Instead,

26:50

Joe said, and now I'm not

26:53

paraphrasing, he said, quote, happy

26:55

to help, I love the

26:57

interest in the brand. And

26:59

another thing about Joe, he's

27:01

a proud Canadian. So I

27:04

think that did make

27:06

him more inclined to

27:08

help us with this

27:10

very specific to

27:12

Canada problem. So

27:14

when we got

27:16

Joe's email, we finally

27:19

had the who and why

27:21

that Ann was looking for,

27:24

and we got back in

27:26

touch with him. So are

27:28

you ready for the answer?

27:31

I'm so ready. or tube

27:33

of icing, the word he used

27:35

is pouch. We clarified, these are

27:37

tubes, and he was like, yeah,

27:39

that too. So, Joe wrote back

27:41

to us and said that the pouch

27:44

slash tube of icing, the language

27:46

on it is not ACFA IAA

27:49

requirement. Okay. Instead, because

27:51

of the design of the

27:53

container, someone could very easily

27:56

squeeze it into their mouths

27:58

if they wanted to. At

28:00

signature brands did not want consumers

28:02

to mistake this decorative icing product

28:05

as a snack. And the reason

28:07

that it's not on the American

28:09

Betty Crocker icing is because Betty

28:12

Crocker is relatively new to the

28:14

Canadian market. They've been in America

28:17

for a long time. and the

28:19

signature brands marketing team used the

28:21

opportunity to try out some new

28:24

language to be clear on the

28:26

intended usage. And when we pointed

28:28

out that this was a weird

28:31

thing that we were all confused

28:33

by, Joe was like, yeah, that

28:36

is kind of confusing. When Joe

28:38

told us that he was just

28:40

as confused by the label as

28:43

we were, it got us thinking

28:45

about one of our earlier conversations

28:47

with the real Betty Crocker, aka

28:50

Dr. Betty Crocker. Maybe somebody made

28:52

a mistake, maybe the world's just

28:55

waiting for you to call the

28:57

right person. I mean, after everything

28:59

we've been through, trying to solve

29:02

this ridiculous problem, it sure felt

29:04

like it. For months, we were

29:06

in the weeds of this problem,

29:09

coming up with theory after theory

29:11

and calling experts throughout the food

29:14

and regulation industries, but in the

29:16

end, it wasn't food coloring or

29:18

sugar content. Joe is telling us

29:21

that the label was there because

29:23

the icing was an inappitizing looking

29:25

tube, and they didn't want their

29:28

customers to confuse it with like

29:30

like... A go-gird. And once we

29:33

finally got in touch with the

29:35

right person, Dr. Betty Crocker was

29:37

sort of right. The label only

29:40

to be consumed with other foods?

29:42

It was kind of arbitrary. And

29:45

because of that language, it might

29:47

make a consumer question, how much

29:49

other food you need to eat

29:52

with this product, which is your

29:54

second question, but that second question

29:56

is based on a false premise,

29:59

which was caused by the poor

30:01

wording of the packaging. Right. So

30:04

before we reached out to Joe,

30:06

he did not know about this

30:08

label. It did not come directly

30:11

from Joe. So he went and

30:13

did some digging of his own.

30:15

And now that he knows how

30:18

confusing the language is. He's taking

30:20

it to the marketing team and

30:23

suggesting that they remove the disclaimer.

30:25

Oh. Because a consumer will already

30:27

know that it's just decoration and

30:30

the label has caused more confusion

30:32

than it intended. Wow. So on

30:34

you might have caused an international

30:37

incident. I mean for not like

30:39

an international, not like the Bay

30:42

of Pigs, but. More like just

30:44

a Betty Crocker realignment. But I'm

30:46

wondering how you feel knowing that

30:49

you might be the cause for

30:51

the change of icing packaging labels.

30:53

I feel like very powerful. Like

30:56

maybe there's other stuff I could

30:58

change too, if I'm just curious

31:01

enough. There's a kind of journalism

31:03

called service journalism, which is like

31:05

consumer oriented journalism to try and

31:08

like help consumers figure stuff out.

31:10

Like the person on the 11

31:12

o'clock news, who's like, hey, you

31:15

know, this person's actually trying to

31:17

scam you, don't use this product,

31:20

use this product instead. And occasionally,

31:22

that kind of reporting results in

31:24

a change from a manufacturer or

31:27

company. Very rarely, though. And even

31:29

as a show that sometimes deals

31:31

with heavy topics, people giving up

31:34

on their dreams, people worried about

31:36

having kids, like, you know, what

31:39

I do is tell a story.

31:41

I don't move the needle very

31:43

often. So even the fact that,

31:46

like, this has moved the needle

31:48

a little bit, that Joe ends

31:51

from signature brands might end up

31:53

moving this from the label. It

31:55

feels like we've done something. Yeah.

31:58

You know what I mean? The

32:00

power you feel is absolutely earned.

32:02

It's reporting with results. So I

32:05

guess that means that it would

32:07

be fine to glurp a whole

32:10

tube of this. Yeah, you should

32:12

glurp it up my friend. Amore

32:14

is taking exception to this. Definitely

32:17

not. If there's anybody that we

32:19

do need to keep that label

32:21

on for, I think it's probably

32:24

me. This

32:29

episode of Hyper Fixed was produced

32:32

by Emma Cortland, Amore Yates, and

32:34

Saris Sophur Sukenic. It was also

32:36

edited by Emma Cortland, Amore Yates,

32:38

and Sarisauphar Sukenic. It was engineered

32:41

by Tony Williams, fact-checking by Sona

32:43

Avakian, music by the mysterious Breakmaster

32:45

Cylinder, and me. Special thanks to

32:47

Jake Robinson, Ian Mooney, Amanda Schumacher,

32:50

and Greg Phillips. You can get

32:52

bonus episodes, join our Discord, and

32:54

Much much much more at hyper.com.com.com.com.

32:56

And at this point, like, why

32:59

wouldn't you? I mean, we're hanging

33:01

out on the discord, solving problems

33:03

together. I did a live stream

33:05

where we worked on a music

33:08

cue for the episode together. We're

33:10

having a blast over here. Again,

33:12

that's hyperfixed pod.com/join. Hyperfixed is a

33:14

proud member of Radiotopia from PRX,

33:17

a network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported

33:19

podcasts. Discover audio with Vision at

33:21

Radiotopia.f1. Thanks so much for listening.

33:24

We'll see you. Radio

33:37

Topia.