0:00

to I .H. James Dobson, a podcast dedicated

0:02

to the haters. Welcome

0:05

to I .H. James Dobson,

0:07

your podcast's favorite podcast. I

0:10

think we already did that one. I didn't use it,

0:12

but I like it. Damn it. Welcome

0:26

to I hear James Dobson. My

0:28

name is Jake. I'm a

0:30

former evangelical turned queer sex therapist

0:32

and today I am proud

0:35

to be joined by the pretty

0:37

playful and personable the perceptive

0:39

and persistent the passionate pleasant pensive

0:41

person Brooke Brooke, you're perfect.

0:43

You're beautiful. Look like Linda

0:45

Evangelista your model. Yeah, Rick. How

0:47

are you? I'm really good Do you

0:49

know that I actually have done modeling? I was a plus

0:51

size model for my friend who makes her own clothes. Oh,

0:53

I think you showed me those pictures. Yeah. And you were very

0:55

good at it. I made it sound like she's

0:58

like from the prairie in

1:00

1860. She doesn't just like make her own,

1:02

like she has a store. Yes. Yeah, okay. The

1:05

pictures were nice. Did you enjoy the experience? I

1:07

loved it. They put makeup on

1:09

my face and they did things to my

1:11

hair. Then I stood there. It's

1:14

weird. Yeah. Yeah, but

1:16

they turned out nice. We

1:18

are coming fresh off of recording the last episode.

1:20

Got a nice little break. Yeah. Are the

1:22

bad vibes? Oh, no, the bad

1:24

vibes are always with us here in

1:26

this room. But they're

1:29

better because I did ask

1:31

you and make you promise

1:33

that we are not going to

1:35

talk about how men should

1:37

be for this one. Correct. I

1:39

want everyone to know, readers, that

1:41

I had a stern talking to

1:43

with Jake because the question I

1:45

asked is like, what More is

1:47

there to say James Thompson. You

1:50

talked about women. You've talked about

1:52

men. You've talked about sex. You've

1:54

talked about boys and girls and

1:56

dogs and kids and What else do you

1:58

need to tell us about? Well

2:00

How do

2:02

you feel at

2:04

school? Oh It seems

2:07

like a good place to rent a

2:09

teenager Did

2:22

you go to public school? Yes, I did. That

2:25

explains a lot. I

2:27

don't know what that means. How

2:29

did you like it? How did you find it? It was

2:32

great. I went to public

2:34

school for elementary school at

2:36

a very cool school in

2:38

Shorewood, Wisconsin. It

2:40

was called Atwater. So if any Atwater

2:42

kids are out there, hey.

2:44

Hey. And then I

2:47

was ripped out of my cool

2:49

public school, and I

2:51

went to, we moved to the

2:53

middle of Ohio, and for four

2:55

years I went to a less great

2:57

public school. Shout

3:00

out. Don't shout them out. Yeah, no

3:02

shout out, Ohio, but you know who

3:04

you are. And then I

3:06

went to public high school, which was

3:08

like, as the kids say, kind

3:11

of mid. I

3:13

went to... school in the

3:15

suburbs in Wisconsin outside

3:17

of Milwaukee. But overall, yes,

3:20

public school was great. I,

3:22

this is a longer answer than you want it,

3:25

but I also at one point in Ohio,

3:27

I hated my school so much that I asked

3:29

if I could go to private school and

3:31

we toured a private school and it just kind of

3:33

gave me the heaps. So

3:35

I was like, I

3:37

don't belong here. No

3:39

offense if you're a private school kid, that's cool. But

3:42

I kind of got the heaps. Yeah. Yeah.

3:44

We've talked about my educational background,

3:46

but I went to military schools, which

3:49

are like kind of public schools. They're public schools

3:51

if you live on a military base. And

3:54

then I went to a public school for one

3:56

year of middle school and for high school. I was

3:58

briefly homeschooled for a period of time. And

4:01

military schools, big thumbs down. High school

4:03

was not a great experience, but that

4:05

wasn't because of public school. It was

4:07

because I was going through some stuff,

4:09

we could say. Yeah. On

4:11

March 20th, 2025, Donald

4:13

Trump, the president somehow,

4:16

gave a royal decree to abolish the

4:18

Department of Education. This

4:21

was a fulfillment of a significant and

4:23

pretty prominent campaign promise of his. Like

4:26

the tariffs, which may or may not

4:28

be around whenever you listen to this, this

4:30

is bad. And also like the

4:32

tariffs, we knew that this was coming. He

4:34

technically cannot abolish the Department of

4:36

Education without Congress, but the executive

4:39

order said the Education Secretary will,

4:41

quote, to the maximum extent appropriate

4:43

and permitted by law, take all the

4:45

necessary steps to facilitate the closure of

4:47

the Department of Education and return authority

4:49

back to the states and local communities.

4:52

Brooke, this might come as a shock to hear,

4:54

but I think James Dobson is to blame for

4:56

this. Okay. Not

4:59

entirely sure, but He actually does have

5:01

a surprisingly high level of responsibility for

5:03

this part of our current hellscape. That's

5:06

today's episode, how James Dobson is winning

5:08

the war against public education. Oh

5:11

boy. So not men. Okay. But

5:14

you did say Trump, so that makes it even

5:16

worse. Yeah, we don't, we're not talking all

5:18

that much about Trump. Okay, good. Is there a

5:20

book for this or is this just a - There is no

5:22

book for this. There is some media for this. Okay. Before

5:25

we get to that, a little bit of background. I

5:27

did actually know a ton about the

5:29

history of public education before researching this.

5:31

I knew a little bit. I knew

5:33

and it's important to name that formal

5:35

universal education and public education where everyone

5:37

has the opportunity to go to school

5:39

for free are relatively new concepts

5:41

in especially Western society. The

5:44

idea that everyone goes to school learns how to read

5:46

and write and do math has not always existed. The

5:49

first taxpayer -funded public schools was created

5:51

in Massachusetts in 1644. It focused

5:53

us more about family and church

5:55

and community. And by the 1800s,

5:57

schools had shifted to teach more about reading

5:59

and math. But really, our context

6:01

begins with a guy named Horace Mann, who

6:03

in high school all call... Horace Mann? Horace

6:05

Mann, yeah. Wait! Horace.

6:08

God. But Horace Mann, like a horse girl.

6:13

He was appointed Secretary of the

6:15

Massachusetts Board of Education in

6:17

1837, and man... guy fucks

6:19

in a positive way. Horseman.

6:22

Horseman! He

6:26

was a strong advocate for

6:28

universal education, arguing that education

6:30

was a great equalizer and vital

6:32

for a true democratic society. He

6:34

also argued that a more educated

6:36

populace would create a more

6:38

profitable economy. These are both

6:40

still arguments you see today and I think

6:43

still are both really valid arguments. Horseman

6:45

also advocated for basic public

6:47

education to be funded by taxes.

6:50

He also helped create schools to train teachers,

6:52

which were called normal schools, which I thought

6:54

was very funny. People were taught educational

6:56

theory and curriculum. He was

6:58

also a staunch abolitionist. His

7:00

views of public education was that it was

7:02

for everyone, unlike the Liberty and Justice

7:05

for All asterisk and the Declaration of Independence.

7:08

After the Civil War, cities in the United

7:10

States began building high schools. Our

7:12

years of childhood and adolescence have changed significantly

7:14

throughout time, and the idea of continuing

7:16

education through high school was new. In

7:19

1892, the National

7:21

Education Association recommended that children should

7:23

receive 12 years of instruction. The

7:26

first U .S. Office of Education was

7:28

created in 1867 during the period

7:30

of Reconstruction after the Civil War. At

7:33

the time, it was just meant to track educational

7:35

outcomes of schools in each state. Compulsory

7:37

school, saying you had to go to

7:39

school, was mandated across the United States in

7:41

this time. Vaas being

7:44

passed from 1852 to 1917.

7:46

Brooke, what do you think the last date to

7:49

mandate school was for people in 1917? I

7:51

love these questions. The last

7:53

date to mandate school? Yeah, like today kids

7:56

had to go to school in the summer. A southern state.

7:58

Yep. Um, Mississippi?

8:00

It was Mississippi! Oh my god,

8:02

really? First try, good for you. Oh

8:05

god, yes. Throughout

8:07

the 1800s, we are building the foundation

8:09

of how we understand education in

8:11

school today. Public schooling has

8:13

always been controversial. There's

8:16

a lot of reasons for this, but some

8:18

people just straight up think that not everyone

8:20

should be or deserves to be educated. They

8:22

object to the idea of their taxes paying for

8:24

schools, for other or undeserving people to go to

8:27

school. Also, class -meaning

8:29

socioeconomic status played a huge role

8:31

in public schools. Yes, schools

8:33

are funded by taxes, but presently they

8:35

are funded by local property taxes. So

8:37

a public school in an affluent neighborhood has

8:39

a larger budget than a school in a lower

8:41

-income neighborhood, despite the amount of students. And

8:44

as you may imagine, racism played

8:46

a huge role in public

8:48

education. The 1800s in the United

8:50

States were not a great time for

8:52

racial equality. We fought a

8:54

whole civil war about it. About whether or

8:56

not black people were, you know, people. Even

8:59

after it ended, we still had systems of

9:01

discrimination built into our legal systems for like

9:03

a century. As opposed to now, where

9:05

it's just an implication and practice, not the explicit

9:07

text of the law, but whatever. The

9:10

famous Supreme Court case about segregation

9:12

was Brown v. Board of

9:14

Education. It was literally about segregation

9:16

in public schools. Editing

9:18

GQ here, yes, I know there are

9:20

other important Supreme Court cases about segregation,

9:22

like Loving v. Virginia. I'm telling the

9:24

story, okay? Come along with me. That

9:27

was decided in 1954. The

9:29

Civil Rights Act was passed a decade

9:31

later in 1964, and

9:33

in 1971, the Supreme Court ruled that

9:35

private schools could not discriminate based

9:37

on race and still get a tax

9:39

exemption. This really pissed

9:41

off people like Jerry Falwell, founder of

9:43

Liberty University, as well as the

9:45

leaders of Bob Jones University. Both are

9:47

private cursing colleges with deep histories of

9:49

discrimination and both are still around. The

9:52

Supreme Court actually revoked Bob Jones'

9:54

tax exemption status in 1983

9:56

because they were still being super

9:58

fucking racist. It

10:00

was a legal battle that started

10:02

in the 70s because they forbade

10:04

black students from entry entirely until

10:06

1971 and continued to forbid interracial

10:08

relationships. The

10:11

focus of this episode isn't really on private

10:13

Christian schools. That is an important and relevant

10:15

topic and our good friend Talia Levin talks

10:17

about it quite a bit in her amazing

10:19

book Wild Faith. We

10:22

will probably do a deeper dive on it one

10:24

day, and the politics of so -called school choice. But

10:27

I want to point out the dates once again. 1954

10:29

was Brownmore's support of education, civil

10:32

rights was 1964, Bob

10:34

Jones was stripped of his taxes dump status

10:36

in the 70s, and it was reaffirmed in

10:38

1983. The 1980s also

10:40

saw the start of the modern satanic

10:42

panic, where people were freaked out about

10:44

ritual satanic abuse happening everywhere, but

10:47

especially in schools. Famously,

10:49

the MacMartin Preschool was the site of baseless

10:51

and ludicrous accusations of child abuse. This

10:55

is when James Dobson was coming up. Dare

10:57

to Discipline was published in

11:00

1970. James Dobson provides

11:02

an alternative. The modern

11:04

homeschooling push began in the 1970s by

11:06

a guy named John Holtz and

11:08

later his friend Raymond Moore. They

11:11

were not focused on evangelicalism per

11:13

se, they argued more for structural

11:15

issues, like formal education created an

11:17

oppressive system for learning focused more on

11:19

making compliant employees. I

11:21

think it's also really interesting,

11:23

I'm sorry, that I never thought

11:25

about this, but that like this push for

11:27

homeschooling, which obviously is the mother's teaching, is

11:30

happening in the 70s when

11:33

we have feminism on the

11:35

rise. Interesting, isn't it? That

11:38

is not one of

11:40

the focuses of this

11:42

episode, right? But it's

11:44

not but this original idea that

11:46

formal education created an impressive system

11:48

for learning focus more making compliant employees

11:51

isn't totally wrong I

11:53

think in the

11:55

early 1980s. I actually couldn't find

11:57

an exact date for this James

11:59

Dobson interviewed Raymond Moore one of the people

12:01

who led that initial push and Brooke

12:03

We're gonna listen to clips of that

12:05

interview. Oh, great Readers, this

12:07

does mean that for the first time in

12:09

this blog, you will hear James Dobson's

12:11

voice. Oh, trigger warning. So trigger warning for

12:14

that. Raymond Moore's main argument here

12:16

and this interview is that we should keep

12:18

kids out of school until they are about

12:20

eight years old. Here is a

12:22

clip of James Dobson and Raymond Moore

12:24

talking about how early childhood education sets kids

12:26

up to fail. Well,

12:28

I want to talk to you at

12:30

the day and get you to

12:32

talk to our listeners about your very

12:34

important book better late than early

12:36

and your second book school can wait

12:38

Give us the main thing is

12:40

that stop this is not essentially we

12:42

found First out of my wife's

12:44

remedial reading experience where she

12:46

found that most of her remedial reading students

12:48

were youngsters who had gone to school

12:50

very early. These are problem students, learning students.

12:53

We find that about 70 % of all

12:55

of the behavior problems today are youngsters

12:57

who have gone to school very early. So

13:00

we began studying this intensively,

13:02

about 10, 15 years ago,

13:05

and have gone through over 7 ,000 studies

13:07

besides our teams at Stanford and University

13:09

of Colorado Medical School and in Michigan,

13:12

where and have determined

13:14

that in fact that if

13:16

you could keep your child out

13:18

until at least eight to ten years

13:20

of age and give him a

13:23

good happy home life and

13:25

there are simple ways of doing

13:27

this then put him into school with

13:29

his age mates I emphasize that

13:31

with his age mates at about

13:33

uh grade two or three or

13:35

four depending upon his age the child

13:37

will do in a few months

13:40

or less what the other children

13:42

have with anxiety and frustration taken years

13:44

to do He will shortly catch

13:46

up and pass those other children

13:48

and come out better academically and socially

13:50

and behaviorally than the children who

13:52

went to school early. I did

13:54

not pick up that heavy breathing at first. That

13:57

was weird. I don't even know what to

13:59

say that's so preposterous. It

14:02

is simply untrue. It

14:04

is just simply untrue.

14:06

Ten years old in second

14:08

grade. And

14:10

then they're going to like zoom through like basically

14:12

second, third, and fourth grade all in a

14:14

year. Yeah, they're saying they can learn all the stuff that they

14:16

would have learned in that time quickly. There's

14:19

some. I'm sorry. Go for it. So

14:21

much written and it's so late. But like for

14:23

why? And like, what are you supposed to do with

14:25

for it with a kid for 10 years who's

14:27

not in school? I don't

14:29

think I have the clips of this,

14:31

but his he's saying you should let a kid

14:33

learn how to make a bed and help you

14:35

out at home and like learn how to like

14:38

be a person. as opposed to just throwing them

14:40

into school and saying, here's what you have to

14:42

learn. Which is incorrect,

14:45

but I could, in research, there's different

14:47

types of validity, and we would say

14:49

that there's some face validity to that.

14:51

It makes a certain type of sense. It's

14:54

untrue, but I could see how someone could

14:56

feel that way. In 2017,

14:58

a meta -analysis, a study

15:00

of studies, found that participation

15:02

in early childhood education programs

15:05

leads to statistically significant reductions

15:07

in special education placements and

15:09

being held back at grade

15:11

and increases in high school

15:13

graduation rates. Another meta

15:15

-analysis in 2023 found that higher

15:17

levels of early childhood education

15:19

quality were significantly related to higher

15:21

levels of academic outcomes, literacy,

15:23

math, but also behavioral skills, social

15:25

competence, and motor skills, and

15:27

lower levels of behavioral and social -emotional

15:29

problems. And they found that these Outcomes

15:32

were consistent across the board,

15:34

kind of regardless of ethnic minority

15:36

or socioeconomic status background. Our

15:38

good friend horseman said that education

15:40

was the great equalizer. There's

15:43

some real statistical truth behind that.

15:45

And I'm sorry, but it just because I know

15:47

this isn't what we're talking about, it just

15:49

sounds like another way to keep the mom in

15:52

the house. It sure does. That

15:54

is going to be something that we're going to keep an

15:56

eye on, even if they don't directly talk about that. A

15:58

little bit more studies because I went on a fucking rabbit hole

16:01

about this. These studies last

16:03

for a long time. One

16:05

longitudinal study found, a long -term

16:07

study, tracked 101 kids from

16:10

low -income families over 30 years. And

16:12

the findings reinforced the importance of the

16:14

first five years as a key stage

16:17

during which cognitive skills are the foundation

16:19

of future success and acquired during that

16:21

time. They went through an

16:23

early educational program that was associated

16:25

with, quote, positive outcomes 25 years

16:27

after participants completed the program. Many

16:29

children born into poverty are in need

16:32

of full -time childcare, especially given the

16:34

work requirements now tied to qualifying for

16:36

welfare benefits. For children growing

16:38

up in economically poor families who

16:40

need out -of -home care during infancy, early

16:43

childhood care provides a vital

16:45

opportunity for enhanced development. Another

16:48

longitudinal study from 2011 tracked

16:50

1 ,400 kids who accessed

16:52

early childhood education services

16:54

in inner -city Chicago schools. Relative

16:57

to a comparison group, going

16:59

through normal services, program

17:01

participation was independently linked with

17:03

higher educational attainment, socioeconomic

17:06

status, including income, health insurance,

17:08

as well as lower rates of justice system

17:10

involvement and substance use. Evidence

17:13

of enduring effects was strongest for preschool,

17:15

especially for males and for children of

17:17

high school dropouts. All

17:19

this to say, There might be

17:21

some like again face validity to like okay like

17:23

maybe keeping kids out of school so they can

17:25

like learn to be a person before you put

17:27

them into a formal system is useful Giving kids

17:29

structured education in these times is incredibly

17:31

beneficial for the duration of their life. I

17:34

Don't really hear this argument being made today

17:36

keeping kids out of school until they're

17:39

eight except for some people in that like

17:41

unschooling movement It's fallen out of favor

17:43

in this rejection of public education even though

17:45

it was kind of the founding principle of the modern

17:47

homeschooling push Moore's argument

17:49

isn't just that education is too early and

17:51

setting kids up to fail. He

17:53

also argues that kids are too immature to go

17:55

to school at this age, which he calls peer

17:57

dependency. Clip two. Now,

18:00

I explain what you mean by peer dependency.

18:02

How does going to the first grade at

18:04

six years of age contribute to that problem?

18:06

Well, six, of course, is if a child

18:08

is in their late sixes, it won't probably

18:10

won't be so bad as if he's in

18:12

their late fives or early sixes. The later

18:14

the child up. goes to school up to,

18:16

you know, seven or eight, the better. But the

18:19

child that goes to school, remember, at six, is

18:21

not able yet to reason consistently from cause to

18:23

effect. And when he goes

18:25

out there and he learns

18:27

those manners and habits and speech

18:29

and so on from the other

18:31

little children, which is called social contagion

18:33

by Yuri Bronfenbrenner of Cornell, when

18:35

he learns that social contagion and he comes home

18:37

with those bad manners and you start remonstrating to

18:39

your child, he doesn't really

18:42

understand you. And so he gives your values

18:44

the back of the hand and latches on to the values

18:46

of his peers. This child becomes

18:48

dependent upon them for his decisions. He

18:50

is unable to make decisions desirably

18:52

on his own. Okay. I

18:54

highly doubt that Bronfenbrenner

18:57

has something

18:59

called social contagion. So

19:01

excellent picking up on

19:03

that. Bronfenbrenner does. Okay.

19:06

This is not what that means. That's

19:08

what I figured. Something fell off about this.

19:10

And also social contagion is something

19:12

that we still hear in

19:14

the fight against public schools. It

19:17

was said to me when I was coming out

19:19

that coming out being gay was a thing that lonely

19:21

kids did for acceptance and attention, and if you

19:23

just keep your kids isolated from it, they won't learn

19:25

to be gay or trans. That's how

19:27

it's used nowadays. That's kind of what he's

19:29

talking about here. It's not exactly the same thing

19:31

we've had. We've had like 40 years since

19:33

then, but it's related. It's not what the

19:35

original meaning was. That also

19:37

gets the idea that public school is taking your

19:39

kids away from the rightful owners, the parents. It's

19:42

infecting them with bad ideas that they wouldn't

19:44

otherwise be exposed to. It's

19:47

a cultural war issue. Even back

19:49

then. Clip 3. home

19:53

in the years before eight or 10. Oh,

19:55

I like that question. Of

20:00

course, we want to be sure that the fathers

20:02

are helping the mothers with a very good

20:04

pregnancy, making them happy. And the father, if he

20:06

has 51 % of the authority, let him have

20:08

51 % of the responsibility and love and kindness

20:10

and, you know, so that authority and responsibility.

20:12

That's something we can get our teeth into. I

20:14

feel this is very important. If a man

20:16

would do that, we wouldn't be having the feminism

20:19

movement that we have today. So

20:21

feminism is seemingly unrelated

20:23

to education, right? That

20:25

is a separate conversation. But

20:27

it's all part of the same project they are

20:29

pushing. Cultural War bullshit,

20:31

explicitly conservative politics, has been

20:33

present in the modern homeschooling

20:35

movement since its inception. It's

20:38

pretty remarkable how much that interview served

20:40

as a catalyst for the homeschooling

20:42

movement, especially with all the other factors

20:45

at play. I cannot overstate how

20:47

important this interview is in the modern

20:49

homeschooling movement. It even

20:51

got Dobson to start homeschooling his kids. That

20:53

conversation did. Which then, because

20:55

he was doing it, he talked about it on his radio

20:57

show, and they got more people to do it, and so on

20:59

and so forth. It gave mainstream

21:01

validation to the fledging homeschool movement, as

21:03

well as aligning it with a broader

21:05

project of evangelicalism. Homeschooling

21:08

was not as legal then as it is today. The

21:10

explosion of homeschooling in the 80s

21:12

challenged that. Notably, the

21:15

Homeschool Legal Defense Association,

21:17

HSLDA, began in 1983,

21:20

found by some fucker named Michael

21:22

Ferris. With evangelicals as

21:24

a newly influential political bloc, thanks to

21:27

the election of Ronald Reagan, people

21:30

in power listened to them. Saks

21:33

Preveyer and Saks Predator Bill Clinton

21:35

signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act into

21:37

law in 1993, making homeschooling

21:39

a federally protected alternative to public

21:41

or private schools. I was very

21:43

proud of Saks Preveyer and Saks Preveyer. In

21:47

1985, an estimated 50 ,000 kids

21:49

were being taught at home. By

21:51

1995, The number

21:53

had increased to anywhere

21:55

between 500 ,000 and 750 ,000

21:57

kids. We're

21:59

going to listen to another interview. This one is

22:02

from 2010. Here, James

22:04

Dobson interviews Michael Therris, the founder

22:06

of the HSLDA. I want

22:09

to talk to you about

22:11

homeschooling again. That's one of

22:13

my favorite subjects. Favorite subjects.

22:15

I believe in homeschooling. I've

22:17

watched the kids who were.

22:19

blessed enough to have that

22:21

commitment by their parents. But

22:23

it's constantly changing and ideas

22:25

about curriculum are changing. Bring

22:27

us up to date. What do we

22:30

need to know? Well, first, I want to

22:32

just say thank you again because our

22:34

family is homeschooling. We're in our almost 30th

22:36

year now homeschooling our kids because my

22:38

wife heard one of your very earliest

22:40

broadcasts because of your show about

22:42

homeschooling. So we just really are

22:44

blessed. You have 10 children. and

22:46

she homeschooled all. She did. That's

22:49

right. Were all of them homeschooled

22:51

at the same time? Well, the

22:53

six were the most we ever

22:55

were actively educating it at one

22:57

time. Only six at one time. In

23:00

six different grades. Yeah. One person

23:02

doing all of it. Maybe twins. Did

23:06

you know

23:08

a lot of homeschool people? I

23:11

know and continue to know so

23:13

many homeschooling people. I don't know

23:15

a single one. Fascinating. Really? Totally.

23:17

When I was in grade school, we

23:19

thought homeschooled kids were like aliens. Like

23:22

we had heard of the concept,

23:24

but I had never met one

23:26

before. My very best

23:29

friends in second through

23:31

eighth grade, so

23:33

for six years and we're all

23:35

homeschooled. Wow. My very best friend

23:37

in Germany, who I mentioned in

23:39

our deconstruction episode, homeschooled.

23:41

He was my best friend and I was homeschooled as well. Like that

23:43

was very much the world I lived in. I don't

23:46

think we talk about it specifically

23:48

in this episode, but homeschoolers have

23:50

created kind of a whole alternate universe. There are

23:52

co -ops so you can hang out with other

23:54

homeschool kids or if your mom doesn't can

23:56

teach English but not science, there can be like

23:58

a science teacher. It's kind of just making public

24:00

school. Yeah. But

24:02

again, this guy founded the HSLDA

24:04

and explicitly said it's because

24:06

of Dobson's interviews. The

24:09

next two clips are about how homeschooling has

24:11

continued to be a front for the evangelical

24:13

culture war and how it has evolved since

24:15

the 80s when that first interview took place. A

24:18

little bit of background for this next clip.

24:20

This was in 2010. So Obama was

24:22

president and the Supreme Court sometimes made more

24:24

liberal rulings. And so they really hated the

24:26

president and the courts. Does

24:29

it concern you that so

24:31

many young people come through

24:33

the public school system or

24:35

even some private schools and

24:37

do not know the basics

24:39

of the Constitution. They don't

24:41

know the system of checks

24:43

and balances. They don't know

24:45

the Bill of Rights. They

24:47

don't know what privileges they

24:49

have been granted as a

24:51

result of the Founding Fathers

24:53

work. They don't find

24:55

that out. No, they don't. Every

24:58

state in the country requires instruction

25:00

in the Constitution as a mandatory

25:02

curriculum item. And what's

25:04

taught is so boring,

25:06

is so superficial, nobody

25:08

remembers. We don't know

25:10

the most important principle of the

25:12

American Constitution, Article 1, Section 1,

25:15

that says all legislative authority is

25:17

vested in the Congress of the United States,

25:19

which means the only people that can make

25:21

law are elected legislators. President can't make law.

25:23

Supreme Court shouldn't make law. It's crazy to

25:25

listen to this now. It does. And the

25:27

United Nations shouldn't be allowed to make law.

25:30

That's one of the good things about

25:32

homeschooling. You know, every parent could

25:34

do this, could teach their kids

25:36

principles of the Constitution. But homeschoolers are

25:38

doing a really good job of

25:40

it. And the effect that I see

25:42

of homeschool kids in political activity, it

25:44

is one of the most exciting things to

25:46

see. It really is. Oh.

25:49

They see their peers staining

25:51

up. That was chilling. It

25:53

really is. Public officials' times don't like

25:56

what's going on. And there have

25:58

been fights in the HR6 battle that

26:00

you led and helped me with.

26:02

back in the early 1990s and

26:04

1994 is an example of that.

26:06

And the kids that grew up

26:08

with that not only believe in

26:10

homeschool freedom, they believe in being

26:12

politically active generally. And that's one

26:14

of the big benefits of homeschoolers

26:17

to see with their kids. They

26:19

raise kids who are politically active.

26:21

They vote, they give money to

26:23

candidates, they volunteer for candidates. So

26:26

what is public school kids? Well,

26:28

sure. do

26:31

it for conservative politicians. Right, that's what he

26:33

means. Yes. He's saying

26:35

homeschooling creates activists. Yes. That's one of

26:37

the biggest benefits of one of the

26:39

most exciting things that they see. This

26:42

next clip, I think, takes it

26:45

to another level. It's how homeschooling

26:47

is intertwined with capital P politics. Also,

26:49

why didn't I know how much James

26:51

Dobson sounds like Jan Crouch? Brilliant.

26:57

I mentioned at the top

26:59

of the program that your

27:01

founder and chancellor of Patrick

27:03

Henry College in Virginia and

27:05

I've been to your campus

27:07

and it's just beautiful there.

27:10

I'm so impressed by your school

27:12

and you started the college

27:14

primarily for homeschooled youngsters who wanted

27:16

a certain kind of college

27:18

education, didn't you? Right. We, you

27:21

know, let any young person

27:23

who loves Jesus and is smart

27:25

come, but 90 % of our

27:27

kids are homeschooled. And there are a

27:29

couple of reasons why I decided to

27:31

start the school. One was, I had

27:33

a number of members of Congress who

27:35

were saying, Mike, you know, I like

27:37

a sharp homeschooler on my staff. And they knew they

27:39

didn't want a 14 -year -old. And I'd seen

27:41

a lot of... a congressman being betrayed

27:43

by their staffers who were more liberal than

27:45

the congressman was. And so what they

27:47

were telling me really was I want somebody

27:49

who's smart and shares my values. And

27:51

so that was that was reason one to

27:53

think about the school in the Washington,

27:56

D .C. area. OK, you

27:58

homeschooling as a movement is an explicitly

28:00

political and partisan endeavor

28:02

meant to control kids

28:04

and consolidate power, forming an

28:07

illiberal democracy. I wrote,

28:09

Congressman Getting Betrayed released it out to

28:11

me. They've created an

28:13

entire ecosystem and it keeps

28:15

evangelical control on people through

28:17

college and beyond. Also,

28:20

the HSLDA sucks ass.

28:24

They fight any type of regulation

28:26

on homeschooling. They fight expanded child

28:28

welfare laws. They regularly

28:30

provide legal assistance to insulate

28:32

parents against child abuse charges. including

28:34

supporting two people, Michael and Sharon

28:37

Gravel, a monstrous Ohio

28:39

couple who adopted 11 kids,

28:41

some with disabilities, and

28:43

neglected and abused them in harrowing and

28:45

horrific ways. HSLDA

28:47

attorney Scott Somerville said of these

28:49

people, quote, I think he's a

28:51

hero. Oh my god. In

28:55

the last clip of this interview, Dobson

28:57

and Ferris talked about making sure

28:59

homeschooling but stays free for regulations. There

29:01

was a congressman from Northern California,

29:03

George Miller, and he

29:05

put a provision into an education

29:07

funding bill that required all teachers

29:10

in America to be certified in

29:12

the subject matter that they were

29:14

teaching, which means if you were

29:16

going to homeschool your kids, you'd have

29:18

to be certified as an elementary school

29:20

teacher and in every subject in the

29:22

secondary level. which is impossible. Nobody

29:25

had that bad of a 20 -year -old

29:27

experience where they spent 14 years

29:29

in school getting certified and everything. And

29:32

so homeschooling would have been restricted

29:34

to half of 1 % in

29:36

the elementary level, and no one

29:38

could have homeschooled in the secondary

29:40

level. And so we

29:42

worked to alert the American public to

29:44

what was going on with that. I

29:47

mean, your program was... Front and Center is

29:49

the lead way we did that we sent letters

29:51

out. We did other things as well. Front

29:53

and Center We email in those days. It

29:55

was a different world. But

29:58

the National Education

30:00

Association still has the

30:02

same... position on their

30:04

official resolution books. They

30:06

want all teachers in

30:08

America to be certified.

30:11

And then you have to read the next or

30:13

a later section, which says how certified teachers

30:15

need to be required to be members of the

30:17

National Education Association. So

30:19

it's a power thing. a power

30:21

thing. And so they they want

30:23

to control power and money. And

30:25

it would be a way of

30:27

blocking all homeschooling. What?

30:33

A couple of notes for me. One, this shows

30:35

the power of focus on the family at this point. He

30:38

organized people to defeat political bills. It

30:40

was he said the main way they

30:42

did this. It's also not

30:44

about regulation reform. It's about making

30:46

sure there are no regulations at all. I

30:49

think it might be fair to say,

30:51

OK, maybe you don't need to get

30:53

a master's degree in education to teach

30:55

your own kids. Sure. But they're

30:57

not saying how do we reform this to

30:59

make sure that people are still. qualified in some

31:01

way to teach. It's don't have any qualifications

31:03

at all. Also, it's

31:05

a power thing. They

31:08

want to block all

31:10

homeschooling. How fatalistic. My

31:12

god. Why do parents think they can

31:15

teach their kids trig if they never went to high school? Put

31:17

a pin in that. God

31:21

forbid people be certified in their

31:23

jobs. Right? the conservative political

31:25

movement theoretically is about creating a small

31:27

government and getting government out of things

31:29

and saying that there's too much regulation.

31:31

And in some ways, sure, I guess

31:33

there's validity to that, depending on what

31:35

we're talking about. But again, they're not

31:37

saying how can we make sure that

31:40

people who are teaching their kids

31:42

aren't registered sex offenders, for

31:44

instance, they're saying no regulation at

31:46

all. And any regulation threatens

31:48

the very existence of homeschooling. The

31:50

homeschooling movement. as a political

31:52

force is a reactionary and authoritarian

31:55

project. Not only do they

31:57

see their kids as their property, they see

31:59

public schools as indoctrination facilities turning kids

32:01

against Jesus and perhaps more

32:03

importantly against their parents. Yeah,

32:05

but homeschooling is doing the same thing in the

32:07

other direction. I would say homeschooling often

32:10

is more indoctrinating. Right. With

32:12

public school, you have a diversity

32:14

of opinions in teachers and in student

32:16

bodies. I remember... my

32:19

high school, I had a teacher who was

32:21

the leader of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

32:23

My teacher for US government was very much

32:25

a liberal. I had my teacher

32:27

for AP US history being about Catholic.

32:29

Well, it's just like you get this diversity

32:31

at range and wasn't being indoctrinated. Right.

32:34

Just because they taught me evolution. Right.

32:37

So where are we now? The

32:40

homeschooling movement has only become

32:42

more reactionary. I do think

32:44

there are valid critiques of republic school systems and we

32:46

will get to that. But there are two

32:48

pieces of media I think we must first discuss. First,

32:52

the day that Trump issued his decree to dismantle

32:54

the Department of Education, I went to

32:56

the James Dobson Family Institute website. I

32:59

typed in Department of Education and were

33:01

the first 52 blogs, and

33:03

actual blogs. And readers, I

33:05

will link my Excel spreadsheet in the notes

33:07

for this as well if you want

33:09

to double check my work. You've read 52

33:11

blogs. I sure did. Jake, we have

33:14

to have an interview. I'm

33:16

doing great and my mental health

33:18

is fine. That's not true. I'm

33:22

unwell butchered and I'm way more chill. I

33:27

never said it chilled me out. Having

33:29

no chill is not a sign of a mental

33:31

disorder. No. Very side

33:33

note, this is petty and small, but the

33:35

the website is a pain to navigate

33:37

and impossible to search with any amount of

33:39

tact and refinement. A lot of these

33:42

were not about the Department of Education. It

33:44

just had department and education as words

33:46

in the blogs. But still, this is what

33:48

came up. This is the things that

33:50

came up. I'm not going to read these

33:52

posts, but I aggregated them. I look

33:54

for keywords and of the 52 posts that I

33:56

read. 75 % of

33:58

them were about queer people, and

34:00

over half of them being about

34:02

trans people specifically. The

34:05

other 25 % was a smattering

34:07

of fear -mining about abortion, critical

34:09

race theory, organizations like Mom for

34:11

Liberty during the early days of COVID. Of

34:14

these 52 blogs, only two

34:16

were not directly about cultural war

34:18

issues in education. One

34:20

was a reprint of Dobson's sex ed

34:22

advice from Dare to Discipline, Kachow.

34:25

The other was about how public schools are

34:27

set up for girls to succeed and not

34:29

boys, and also not boys with ADHD, but they

34:31

don't mention ADHD. What? Do they have like

34:33

having to sit still as a kid feels very inferior to

34:35

boys? It's kind of the point of the article. Whatever,

34:38

we don't have time to get into that. We do not have time to get

34:40

into that at all. But with titles like, this

34:43

is an actual title, is the

34:45

Biden administration working to conceal

34:47

teacher sex crimes and Pride Month

34:49

provides an indoctrination opportunity. you

34:51

can feel confident that their analysis is

34:53

nuanced, respectful, and thoughtful. When

34:55

were my teachers supposed to be indoctrinating me?

34:57

They were so burnt out. They

35:00

were like, here's some math, get the hell out of

35:02

this room. Like, there

35:04

was no indoctrination going

35:06

on. High

35:09

school kids aren't trying to hear any of

35:11

that. They are in their own world. Yeah.

35:14

I do think, and I don't know

35:17

that I included clips in this next part, but I'll Big

35:19

part of this is people who didn't

35:21

enjoy their public school experience because

35:23

they felt bored or like, ah, it was

35:25

fundamentally bad and bad in these inherent

35:27

ways. So let's not include our kids in

35:30

that. And again, there are critiques, I think,

35:32

of public schools. Of course. My

35:34

public high school was like, hey,

35:37

you're all going to go into business and

35:39

please wear this football in the meantime, right? My

35:42

public grade school was like very

35:44

arts focused. You know, I guess was

35:46

that indoctrination? Yeah, I bet it was

35:48

some gay shit. Like feelings? Oh

35:51

no. I thought you had to be a woman. Maybe

35:55

it has always been this way, but I was

35:57

really struck by how much the James Dobson Family

36:00

Institute stuff is just GOP talking points.

36:02

Like it is just a branch of

36:04

the Republican Party at this point.

36:06

It's pretty astounding. I feel, I

36:08

was obviously hindsight, whatever. I feel

36:10

like early on James Dobson was a

36:12

soldier of the GOP, but kind

36:14

of was doing his own thing that

36:16

just was really connected. They're just

36:19

the same thing now. Also

36:21

this is tangential, but one of the results that

36:23

I didn't include in this list was a video.

36:25

It was a couple where the woman claims

36:27

to have almost had her kids kidnapped in

36:29

a store. It's just pure fear mongering. On

36:32

par with the chain letters that boomers post to

36:34

Facebook. It was posted

36:36

around the time that delusions of human

36:38

trafficking were particularly salient. The propagandistic

36:40

movie Sound of Freedom was released in

36:42

theaters shortly after. The other

36:44

piece of media that I want to talk to you about

36:46

is not a Dobson production. It is

36:48

a documentary. I mean that

36:51

both literally and in air quotes

36:53

from 2021 called Schoolhouse Rocked, The

36:55

Home School Revolution. Oh

36:57

no. Since this is a podcast,

36:59

readers, you will only hear it, but Brooke,

37:01

there are two clips in this that I

37:03

need to show you the visuals of because

37:05

the visuals are something. This

37:08

just talks to the cultural war stuff.

37:10

It is the primary focus and it is

37:12

a shit show now. It can be

37:14

about whatever issue you want it to be.

37:17

Why would these families give up so

37:19

much to teach their kids at

37:21

home? One female is dead and at

37:23

least five other people wounded after

37:25

a student at Saugus High School opened

37:27

fire while we were filming this

37:29

movie. tragedy struck a school

37:32

in our hometown. We

37:34

were once again reminded of the violence

37:36

that threatens too many students. Hearing about

37:38

this around the country, it is a

37:40

reality. It was were killed and three

37:42

others injured. The suspect, a 16 -year -old

37:44

boy, is now in custody. Parents were

37:47

at the state Capitol Day and they

37:49

were protesting new guidelines for sex education

37:51

in public The California Department of Education

37:53

moving forward with changes to the state's

37:55

sex education framework, a change, but now

37:57

encourage teachers to talk about gender rights.

38:25

of identity

38:29

other topics. temperature checks, kids show

38:31

up already wearing masks before

38:33

they to school with masks. It

38:36

can be about whatever issue you

38:38

want. COVID, school shootings, gay shit,

38:40

whatever your drag queen drag queen.

38:43

The drag queens are part of the visuals. I was like,

38:45

that's what you need to see. Whatever

38:48

you're scared of, you can see in public

38:50

school. I think that any

38:52

of us who are watching what's happening

38:54

in the culture right now can see

38:56

that there has been a massive shift

38:58

in the culture and a huge part

39:00

of that shift is happening in education.

39:02

It's not about reading and writing and

39:04

arithmetic anymore. It's about social engineering. It's

39:06

about teaching our children that there's 15

39:08

genders and that there is no God

39:11

and that their parents aren't the final

39:13

authority. They're claiming

39:15

it's intentional. It's about social engineering.

39:17

But they're doing it. They're

39:21

doing and that's what they're doing

39:23

in homeschool. There's all this stuff.

39:25

You've been talking about it's a

39:27

lot of projection. Yeah, it's a

39:29

lot of projection Also, that's not

39:31

what's happening in public school The

39:33

idea that you are saying gay

39:36

people exist right is true They're

39:38

not saying and you need to

39:40

be gay trans people exist But

39:42

you need to be like they

39:44

object to the idea of queer

39:46

people, right? and any reference to

39:48

them at all. That goes back

39:51

to this social contagion thing. Because

39:53

public school is a community, these

39:56

are issues that exist in our community.

39:58

These are people that exist in our society

40:00

and real imagining the exist in public schools

40:02

as well, but also churches

40:04

and sports team. But this is an

40:06

easy target of something they already hate.

40:09

Right. One more clip

40:11

with visuals. I will

40:13

have you know that I showed this

40:15

clip to boyfriend and he was just

40:17

speechless. which is always a great sign. This

40:21

guy cracks me up

40:23

in the worst way. because

40:37

I'm really the right guy.

40:39

But also we are. To

40:41

direct the education and upbringing of

40:44

the child. If people want to

40:46

homeschool, I'm not fighting it. That's

40:48

fundamental freedom. And

40:50

when that freedom is

40:52

lost, then what other

40:54

freedoms will topple like

40:56

dominoes? And if you look

40:59

at the worst of the

41:01

totalitarian societies, Hitler and

41:03

the Nazis, Stalin, what

41:05

was the first thing they did? get

41:07

the kids out of

41:09

the home and brainwash

41:11

them into a particular

41:13

ideology and way of

41:15

seeing the world and

41:17

and it's the opposite

41:19

of freedom. What?

41:22

I need to - the opposite of

41:24

freedom is the opposite of diversity?

41:27

Public school is the opposite of freedom

41:29

and the opposite of diversity. This

41:31

is crazy. It's

41:34

- The

41:37

obviously you heard them talk about the

41:39

Nazis, but when the musical change happens,

41:41

there's just Nazi imagery Yes, which they're

41:43

they now think is bad as opposed

41:45

to last episode wait where they liked

41:47

it. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, are they hypocritical?

41:50

I'm sure I'm sure pointing out

41:52

the hypocrisy will really change

41:55

the other thing is is like

41:57

No one said there shouldn't

41:59

be homeschool like I mean maybe

42:01

maybe maybe someone somewhere said

42:03

but no one's trying to challenge

42:06

that freedom. It's like it's

42:08

the they're saying there shouldn't be

42:10

public school but also like

42:12

what and then on top of

42:14

that huh and like i

42:17

don't understand i hate it my

42:19

my name for this clip

42:21

in my notes is just uh

42:23

america matlbs it's freedom it's

42:25

diversity it's it's more freedom stars

42:27

and spangles and nazis are

42:30

bad yeah but not but germans

42:32

are good This is a

42:34

little bit later in political ideology,

42:36

but for a while they're

42:38

trying to say like, true diversity

42:41

is diversity of opinion. And

42:43

so putting kids all in public school where

42:45

they're all indoctrinated the same way, that's not real

42:47

diversity, letting them and their parents teach them

42:49

how they want. That's how we get real diversity

42:51

is what he's saying. But that's wrong. It

42:54

is wrong. It's just

42:56

so obviously wrong. It's

42:59

wrong in so many ways.

43:01

But they've already... They've already shown

43:04

how it's wrong. Like that

43:06

interview with James Absin and Michael Ferris

43:08

where they're like, put the kids in

43:10

the home school, teach them to be

43:12

exactly like us. It's a betrayal. Yes.

43:14

If they're not. For kids to think

43:16

on their own. think anything else than

43:18

what we want them to think. And

43:20

then there's this gaslighting into like

43:22

that public school is doing that because

43:24

it's like you said it's all

43:26

projection. Do

43:28

we have to hear anymore?

43:31

Oh yeah. Oh my god.

43:33

This next clip I've titled

43:35

The Ultimate Karen .mp3. The

43:37

culture war can be about whatever you

43:39

want, but they do have a target.

43:42

So a few years ago I

43:44

was introduced to the idea of

43:46

comprehensive sex education. I was horrified

43:48

at what I was reading. Abortion

43:51

was mentioned as a normal

43:53

health care practice to little

43:55

girls starting in fifth grade

43:57

125 times. And we are

43:59

watching the schools literally come

44:01

in and take over the

44:03

sexual education of children and

44:05

parents do not even know

44:07

that it's happening. Every parent

44:09

should understand what is behind

44:12

comprehensive sex ed. People tell

44:14

me, well, it's not in

44:16

my state. It absolutely is

44:18

in your state. And they're

44:20

not teaching our children biology.

44:23

They're teaching our children social engineering.

44:25

They're teaching fiction as if

44:27

it were fact. They're

44:29

teaching our children that their gender

44:31

is malleable. Our children are

44:33

literally having their childhood stolen from

44:35

them. Most parents that I talk

44:37

to know that there are two

44:39

genders and yet we are sending

44:41

our children to institutions that are

44:43

literally lying to them in the

44:46

name of social progressivism and it

44:48

is doing irreparable harm to our

44:50

children. We have reached a crisis

44:52

of epidemic proportions whereby our schools

44:54

can no longer be trusted to

44:56

protect and educate our children. At

44:58

what point do you say the

45:00

barn is on fire? At what

45:02

point do we say enough is

45:04

enough is enough? The

45:07

music is wild. And

45:09

did you notice any time she mentioned like

45:11

liberal agenda stuff, it would be like alien

45:14

music? It

45:16

sure would. The music is

45:18

such an interesting part of this

45:20

documentary. It really is like that is

45:22

the text of this and what

45:24

they're saying is really just like fill

45:26

in the blank buzzwords. Was she

45:28

saying that sex education is going into

45:30

rooms full of little girls and

45:32

saying get an abortion. Yep,

45:35

over a hundred times. A

45:37

hundred times. As opposed to,

45:39

like, so fifth grade, you're,

45:41

like, what, ten? Yes,

45:44

eleven. Eleven? I

45:46

knew what sex was. I knew

45:48

what pregnancy was at that time. Plug

45:50

for our conversation about what comprehensive

45:52

sex that actually is in our episode,

45:54

A Better Way Forward, an impurity

45:56

culture series. But the reason

45:59

that it is We'll talk about this more at

46:01

the end. The reason that it is okay and

46:03

I think good for that to be taught in

46:05

public school, one, some kids at

46:07

that age can get pregnant. Right. And

46:09

it's important that they know that that

46:11

is an option for them. And it's

46:13

important that they know that away from

46:15

their parents because sometimes their parents are

46:17

the ones who are sexually assaulting them

46:20

and getting them pregnant. Yeah.

46:23

And have an outside adult saying,

46:25

you have options. I'm here

46:27

to support you is important. I

46:29

knew what abortion was when I was 10. Sure.

46:31

Because evangelicals sure as fuck do. Yeah. They go

46:33

to March for Life. They see graphic and inaccurate

46:35

depictions of what abortion is supposed to be. They

46:37

know what it is at that time. Right. And

46:40

I will reiterate, which I said in our other episode, they're

46:42

going to find out from someone. Yes.

46:44

That it might as well be like

46:47

an educator or a parent, but they're

46:49

going to find out. Also, parents, you

46:51

can tell your kids about these things

46:53

if you feel like the public schools

46:55

are too liberal and whatever. say

46:57

that, hey, yeah, you talked about abortion

46:59

today, but here are my views on abortion

47:01

or we think abortion is wrong or

47:03

whatever. I disagree with you fundamentally, but like

47:05

you have that right. They're not

47:07

actually trying to steal your kids away. There

47:10

are so many references to queer people

47:12

in this documentary. I just picked

47:14

a handful of these clips. I

47:16

cannot overstate how much this iteration

47:18

of anti -public school sentiment is

47:20

just homophobia and transphobia. Also,

47:22

racism when critical race theory gets mentioned,

47:25

but that's currently out of vogue for this

47:27

exact moment. Did you ever

47:29

see those things where they have, like, comedian

47:31

interviewers? I'm like, are you for

47:33

critical race theory or against it? And

47:36

then they'll be like, what is

47:38

it? Can

47:40

you define what DEI is? Can you find what CRT

47:42

is? It's harder

47:44

to be, uh, whatever we are. Liberal, Democrat,

47:46

progressive, whatever. Sure, I'm not liberal, but

47:48

I'll take it. You know what I mean.

47:50

It's harder to be on our side.

47:52

Yeah. But, like, at least we're way more

47:54

fun of people. We're more fun? I

47:57

also think just, like, more honest. Yeah. Also,

47:59

like, calm down. Like,

48:01

why are you so with... They're literally

48:04

stealing our children's childhood. Like...

48:06

Girl, no they're not. No they're not.

48:08

It's fine. Again, I will say I

48:10

wasn't having sex that ruined my innocence.

48:12

It was being told you were fundamentally

48:14

a horrible person who was incapable of

48:16

changing at all. Right. They view

48:18

public schools as an existential threat to

48:20

their faith and they claim that people are

48:22

leaving the church because of public school.

48:24

And that's really what's happened in our culture

48:26

is that we had generations of kids

48:28

from the church who started to doubt God's

48:30

word and that doubt leads to unbelief.

48:32

And a lot of them are walking away

48:34

from the church. Two -thirds of young people

48:37

have walked away from the church by

48:39

the time they reach college age, very few

48:41

returning. The younger generation that

48:43

are in our churches, the millennials

48:45

in our churches, 40 % say

48:47

they're not born again, 65 % say

48:49

if a good person you'll go to

48:51

heaven, and they're so secularized in their

48:53

thinking. It really comes down

48:55

to the fact that most

48:57

of them went to public school

48:59

where they haven't been taught

49:02

how to defend the Christian faith.

49:04

And at home, we're not giving them the answers.

49:06

And at churches, we're not giving them the

49:08

answers. So many of them drift away from the

49:10

Christian faith. It's because they

49:12

are in public schools that they're not Christians

49:14

anymore. Sure. This was

49:17

the voice of a guy

49:19

named Ken Ham. What?

49:22

Why? Do you know this name?

49:24

No. Why do they always have

49:26

names like this? So Ken Ham

49:28

is a good friend of Kirk

49:30

Cameron. Oh, Kirk Cameron. Yeah. Yeah.

49:32

Ken Ham is a good friend

49:34

of Kirk Cameron. Kenham is the

49:36

founder of an organization called Answers

49:38

in Genesis. Okay. You probably have

49:41

heard of Kenham's ventures. I think

49:43

most famously, he created what he

49:45

called a life -size replica of Noah's

49:47

Ark. Oh. Called the

49:49

Ark Encounter. Yes. Using public

49:51

taxpayer money, where he also claims that

49:53

dinosaurs could fit on the Ark. Oh,

49:55

yeah. Because if they were baby dinosaurs,

49:57

they would all fit together. Is

50:01

this in the museum where they have Jesus riding around

50:03

on the dinosaur? I don't think

50:05

so. I have not been. But when I

50:07

said last episode, we should go to focus on

50:09

the family headquarters, I do actually want to

50:12

go to the Ark encounter with you. Oh

50:14

my God. We could take a road trip out there. Yes. Somebody

50:17

told, where is it? Tennessee, Kentucky. Oh

50:19

my God. We're really putting ourselves

50:21

at risk. Yes. Somebody, oh, I'm thinking

50:23

of the Creation Museum. Yes. Which

50:25

might also be part of it. We're

50:28

probably on a list because... told me

50:30

that they have like guards at the Creation

50:32

Museum that will like see if you're

50:34

there to make fun of it and kick

50:36

you out. Somebody,

50:38

readers, somebody confirm if that's

50:40

true. That's like one of those urban

50:42

legends I heard, but... Editing Jake here again.

50:45

Both the Creation Museum and the Ark

50:47

Encounter are created by Answers and

50:49

Genesis, Canham's organization, and they both are

50:51

in Kentucky. They're about 45 minutes

50:53

drive away from each other. And

50:55

fun fact, you can get an

50:57

adult's ticket to both of these for

51:00

only $110, which I

51:02

think is crazy. Well,

51:04

there's nowhere that needs us more than

51:06

kids. And nowhere I'd feel safer. I

51:08

would not want to record a podcast while

51:10

we're in there. But no, no,

51:12

I might wear a I hate

51:15

James Dobson t -shirt under like a

51:17

hoodie or something. Get a picture. I

51:19

think if we go relatively incognito,

51:21

we could be fine. So

51:24

they are blaming all of these

51:26

ills on public school, from school shootings,

51:28

to gay shit, to COVID, to

51:30

saying this is why kids are leaving

51:32

the church. They create this culture

51:34

of fear so you want to keep your kids safe

51:36

both physically and spiritually, but you also

51:38

want to control them. And they frame

51:40

public schools as trying to steal your

51:42

kids from you. Parents who feel like

51:44

they've lost their children or they can't

51:46

they can't have a good relationship with

51:48

their children because their children have been

51:51

Weaned away from them the school forms

51:53

a wedge between the child and the

51:55

parent it can't help it and I'm

51:57

by the way, I love teachers I

51:59

don't get down on teachers. It's the

52:01

system. It's the institution When you send

52:03

them to the institution the day you

52:05

drop your child off at the school

52:07

doors you are telling that child I

52:09

can't and I won't There you go

52:11

The child band learns from the teacher

52:13

that you are under the school's authority.

52:15

Mommy, mommy, sign this paper. The teacher

52:17

says you have to sign it. So

52:19

you have just completely undermined your authority

52:21

in the eyes of your child. Completely

52:24

undermined your authority. No,

52:27

that's not how it works. That's not

52:29

true. Permission slips do not work.

52:32

Authority of your parents. Specifically, it's saying

52:34

the school cannot act without permission of

52:36

the parents. That is 100 % the authority

52:38

of the parents. Yeah.

52:40

Oh my god. And

52:42

they empower you to do it. Because God

52:44

gave the kids to you, you have all

52:46

you need. I would

52:49

say if I can homeschool, you can homeschool.

52:51

Because my experience in school, let me just

52:53

tell you something, I barely made it through high

52:55

school. And so I was, that was something

52:57

that very much intimidated me is I'm not going

52:59

to have the educational skills to be able

53:01

to get my children through these years. You know,

53:03

I mean, I hate to tell you this,

53:05

but I I went to pre -algebra and that

53:08

was it and then I just couldn't get past

53:10

pre -algebra and so all of that intimidated

53:12

me that I'm not going to be able to

53:14

do this but you know I found that

53:16

once they got up to where I couldn't

53:18

do it I just got them a tutor

53:20

and got them a little bit of help doing

53:22

it. That's what you do. They were able

53:24

to figure things out themselves just because they

53:26

had developed the skill of being able to

53:28

figure things out on their own some of the

53:30

things that I wasn't able to teach. No.

53:32

You feel inadequate because you've been taught by

53:34

our school system that you're inadequate. Wait,

53:37

I have something. Okay

53:41

This woman says I did I

53:43

barely passed high school. Mm -hmm.

53:45

So I barely passed high school

53:47

So I should probably homeschool my

53:49

kids. Mm -hmm. I don't know more

53:51

than prealgebra fine. Frankly neither do

53:53

I sure so my kids should

53:56

just figure it out themselves get

53:58

a tutor with a tutor rent

54:00

a teenager to come over and

54:02

tutor them but like that's not

54:04

then that's not teaching them well

54:06

it's the whole point of homeschooling

54:08

isn't necessarily you teach your kids

54:10

it's that they don't go to

54:13

public school where that's where we

54:15

get co -ops as well you're

54:17

basically just recreating a school system

54:19

but it's not public schools it's

54:21

not these secular atheistic people who

54:23

are and steal your kids away

54:25

from jesus I love

54:27

that she said all of that like it

54:30

was a bonus. There's also

54:32

not the only person who has said things

54:34

like that. I didn't do well in

54:36

school or I didn't like school or I

54:38

feel like it didn't have the skills. I

54:41

would debated keeping it just her

54:43

clip but I thought the other part

54:45

was important. You've been made to

54:47

feel inadequate by your by the schools.

54:49

Yeah. Sometimes you feel inadequate because

54:51

you are. That's

54:57

okay. That's not like a failure

54:59

as a person. I'm not trained

55:01

to teach calculus. I took calculus.

55:03

I'm not equipped to teach calculus.

55:05

I shouldn't and I'm not. No.

55:07

Sometimes you are feeling inadequate because

55:10

you are feelings are emotions and

55:12

sometimes there's validity to them. Also,

55:14

I barely passed. I

55:16

also only really went to pre -algebra

55:18

or I don't remember. I didn't

55:20

do a lot of math because

55:22

I went to school for feelings.

55:24

Yeah, but also I I barely

55:26

passed algebra while being taught by

55:28

an algebra teacher. I don't know

55:30

how I was supposed to have passed it being

55:32

taught by my mother. Oh my

55:34

god, that thought was hilarious. Or anyone

55:36

or a tutor, you know what I mean?

55:38

And it's not because I was in public

55:40

school. It's because I literally have a learning

55:42

disability. So what

55:45

do you do there? There

55:47

is a whole section that I did

55:49

not include clips of because we already had

55:51

a bunch of clips about. how homeschooling

55:53

can be good for kids with special needs.

55:56

Okay, they're going to have an

55:58

answer for everything. Well, yes, but

56:00

it's a bad answer. Also, get

56:02

a tutor is not always a

56:04

viable solution for people. It costs

56:06

a lot of money. Being

56:09

able to stay at home full time with

56:11

your kids already is a place of financial

56:13

privilege. And that's not a bad thing. God

56:15

bless if you're able to do that. But

56:17

people who are able to do that. and

56:20

then afford a tutor on top of that. And

56:22

it's probably not just for one year or

56:24

one subject. You're talking like pretty intensive stuff. Those

56:26

costs add up really fast. Right. And

56:28

not everyone gets a tutor. One another clip

56:30

that I didn't include, but I have loaded

56:33

up and ready to go. A person was

56:35

like, yeah, just show my kids. I

56:37

show them videos online. That's

56:40

not distance learning. There's a lot to

56:42

be said for people learning in different ways.

56:44

Sure, sure, sure. You can't just

56:46

say go watch a video about it. That cannot

56:48

be a kid's entire experience at school. Public schools

56:50

shouldn't do that. Some teachers do in public school

56:52

and they're bad teachers. should not do that at

56:54

home schooling either. And you

56:57

really shouldn't do it in grad school. No. You

56:59

shouldn't have to watch clips of Katy Perry doing

57:02

therapy in grad school. Did you really? I

57:04

sure did. Oh, yeah. I hear

57:06

she's going into space. By

57:08

the time this comes out, she will have been

57:10

in space. We'll have no, what happened? She's been

57:12

in space for a while. This

57:14

is how the documentary ends. This

57:16

is our last clip and it ties

57:19

together a bunch of different threads. We

57:21

started out with this, we'll take it

57:23

a year at a time approach because

57:25

we didn't understand the power of education. The

57:28

music's so groovy. Education

57:30

is discipleship. And

57:32

now as I talk to parents, my

57:35

strong encouragement, my admonition,

57:37

my heartfelt plea is take

57:39

your children back. Our

57:42

children have been held hostage by a school

57:44

system that is telling them that their parents

57:46

are not the authority in their lives and

57:48

parents have not known what to do with

57:50

it. Sometimes

57:54

parents will come up to me and they will say,

57:56

boy, that's good for you Heidi, but I just don't

57:58

feel called to do it. I don't think that's something

58:00

I can do. And I like

58:02

to tell parents, listen, if you

58:04

have children, they are your responsibility.

58:09

Parents need to start stepping up to

58:11

the plate. Get off the bench

58:13

and onto the battlefield and realize that

58:15

the very hard stuff binds

58:17

our children to the battlefield. It

58:22

is time for parents to take

58:24

back what the public school has stolen

58:26

from us. Which is the education of

58:29

our children and realize that we have

58:31

been equipped. We've already

58:33

been equipped and you can do

58:35

it. And so now

58:37

the message is, listen, these kids

58:39

belong to you. They

58:41

don't belong to the schools. They don't

58:43

belong to the state. They don't belong

58:45

to a teacher. They belong to their

58:47

parents. And we can

58:50

make a difference in the

58:52

next generation. It's

58:54

time to bring our children

58:56

home. going

59:06

on there? There are

59:08

so many arguments that these

59:10

clips just touch on. We

59:13

used 15 clips throughout this episode. I

59:15

have about 30 loaded up that I

59:17

was trying to choose from. One,

59:19

they are saying it's a lot of black

59:21

and white thinking. Either your children belong to

59:24

you or they belong to the state. I

59:27

would say your kids don't belong to

59:29

anyone. Your kids belong to themselves. They

59:31

are people. You as an adult, as a

59:33

parent, as a caregiver for the child, do

59:35

have a level of responsibility for taking care

59:37

of them. And yes, you have the right

59:40

to teach them how you want and teach

59:42

and instill your values in them. Absolutely. But

59:45

they don't belong to you. They're

59:47

not property. They're not property. They're also not

59:49

property of the state. I agree with that,

59:51

but it's not one or the other. You

59:54

picked up on this, but there's so

59:56

much just like dialing up the anxiety

59:58

to attend. They're kids being held hostage.

1:00:00

You need to. the battlefield things are

1:00:03

being stolen from them let me read

1:00:05

you one review on our way out

1:00:07

of the door of this documentary i've

1:00:09

been concerned for decades with the effect

1:00:11

the public education system is having on

1:00:13

our nation's youth it has only gotten

1:00:15

worse in recent years our precious children

1:00:17

and grandchildren are much too important to

1:00:19

entrust to a school system that seeks

1:00:22

to indoctrinate them with a radical ideology

1:00:24

of the left capital l left Schoolhouse

1:00:26

Rocked is an excellent and wonderful

1:00:28

testimony to the growing popularity of

1:00:31

homeschooling and superior education that provides

1:00:33

to young people. That

1:00:35

review by Dr. James

1:00:37

Dobson. Oh God. So

1:00:40

it's not a piece of Dobson media, it's a

1:00:42

piece of Dobson approved media. Yeah. You

1:00:44

know what is so sad to

1:00:46

me is that what they think

1:00:48

of as indoctrination is just like

1:00:51

the bare minimum of like acceptance.

1:00:53

Yes. Like this is a community

1:00:55

of different people and here they

1:00:57

all are at the school. That

1:00:59

is what they're viewing as indoctrination.

1:01:02

But it's like it's just

1:01:04

it's just opening the

1:01:06

school to different people. Yes.

1:01:09

I am keenly aware of this as

1:01:11

specifically in being a person in

1:01:13

a gay relationship. Me,

1:01:15

I've been told me talking about my

1:01:18

partner or God forbid holding hands

1:01:20

with him. God forbid giving him some

1:01:22

kind of physical embrace. is

1:01:24

me trying to indoctrinate kids

1:01:26

into my radical left grooming ideology.

1:01:28

Man, we so don't want

1:01:30

kids. No! I want nothing to

1:01:32

do with kids. Also,

1:01:34

I don't care. What I

1:01:36

want is for everyone to just be

1:01:39

able to be themselves. Yeah. I

1:01:41

don't care. I'm not trying to build

1:01:43

an army of bisexuals. That would

1:01:45

be so funny. The most indecisive army

1:01:47

ever. It's

1:01:49

so many drinks. We

1:01:52

don't want your cis kids to be trans.

1:01:54

We want your trans kids to live. Yeah, exactly.

1:01:57

I don't care if kids are gay

1:01:59

or bisexual or whatever or straight.

1:02:01

I want them to be accepted regardless

1:02:03

of what they are. Mm -hmm. Is

1:02:05

that what they mean by indoctrination? Yes.

1:02:08

Woof. Teaching kids that... are trans people as

1:02:10

indoctrination because they don't believe that trans

1:02:13

people exist. They believe that it is some

1:02:15

kind of delusion and mental illness that

1:02:17

it can be cured through reparative therapy. Similar

1:02:19

case was made and sometimes is still

1:02:21

made against gay people. Again, it's out of

1:02:23

vogue. We'll be coming back

1:02:25

ill. In his 2024

1:02:27

campaign, somehow President Donald

1:02:30

Trump said, to every homeschool family,

1:02:32

I will be your champion. He

1:02:35

spoke to a political movement primed

1:02:37

for fear. primed to feel victimized

1:02:39

and wanting to destroy their opponents.

1:02:42

And in his presidency, he is doing that.

1:02:46

Not for nothing. Here is my case

1:02:48

for public school. There are some valid critiques

1:02:50

of our school system, as I have said, and some

1:02:52

of them are raised by homeschool advocates. The

1:02:54

fact that our schools were built to

1:02:56

make complacent employees is a fair critique, I

1:02:59

feel. One standard curriculum

1:03:01

won't work for everybody. Kids

1:03:03

with special needs need more support than traditional

1:03:05

schools can give them. Sure. But

1:03:08

I believe in my bones the

1:03:10

public schools are an unambiguous net positive

1:03:12

First and foremost knowledge is power.

1:03:14

I believe that everyone has a right

1:03:16

to learn about themselves their bodies

1:03:18

and the world around them They deserve

1:03:20

to understand the world in which

1:03:22

they live and not everyone can provide

1:03:24

that not everyone wants to provide

1:03:26

that I have a parent stay at

1:03:28

home full -time with kids and provide

1:03:30

quality education on top of that

1:03:32

is a huge ask that simply is

1:03:34

inaccessible for many people most people

1:03:36

Just find a tutor? Sure.

1:03:39

Yeah, with all my extra money

1:03:41

that I have. Yeah. And time and

1:03:43

everything. Also, we don't live in

1:03:45

a world like everyone's working. Right?

1:03:48

And even if you listen, even if you're

1:03:50

a stay -at -home parent, then that's what

1:03:52

you need to be doing, right? Because you

1:03:54

probably have other kids. How

1:03:57

are you going to homeschool your six

1:03:59

-year -old when you have a one -year -old?

1:04:01

Right? Like, how does this work? In

1:04:03

so many cases. the ideal that

1:04:05

they are propping up as this is

1:04:07

how homeschooling works isn't the reality. Just

1:04:10

by doing little of the people that I

1:04:12

know in my life, whatever, the people who've reached

1:04:14

out because of the show have talked about

1:04:16

just pretty much educational neglect. They've been like,

1:04:18

yeah, go to school, watch this

1:04:20

video, or getting your education taken away as

1:04:22

punishment. You are a strong -willed child, and so

1:04:24

you don't get to go to school today.

1:04:26

Oh, my God. Like, there are so many

1:04:29

ways that that leaving it just to the

1:04:31

hands of the parents fails kids. like

1:04:33

they don't understand that kids go to

1:04:35

school and are exposed to all kinds of

1:04:37

things the same way they are just

1:04:39

in the world when they're adults and the

1:04:41

thing you can do as a parent

1:04:44

is try to pass on your values or

1:04:46

show talk about what your family values

1:04:48

are and you have the right to those

1:04:50

right so you can say I know

1:04:52

you're seeing this at school and our family

1:04:54

doesn't agree with it whatever but like

1:04:56

this is the world I think that's a

1:04:59

really interesting concept I agree but There's

1:05:01

a Bible verse that evangelicals love to talk

1:05:03

to themselves about. It's essentially

1:05:05

that the quote is be in

1:05:07

the world, but not of it. Ew.

1:05:10

There's even a clothing brand called None of This World

1:05:12

that I used to be very interested in and

1:05:14

had a lot of their merch and it looking back,

1:05:16

it's not quality merch. But

1:05:18

yes, I agree. But they would say

1:05:20

that sending your kids to public schools, getting

1:05:22

them indoctrinated to them is making them

1:05:24

of the world. equipping

1:05:27

that what Ken Ham was like, they're

1:05:29

not taught to defend the Christian faith.

1:05:31

One, they're not taught to

1:05:33

defend his idea of the Christian

1:05:35

faith. He's saying, if you don't believe

1:05:37

in creationism, you're not a real

1:05:39

Christian. And two, if

1:05:42

you're not indoctrinated into evangelical Christianity, then

1:05:44

you are made of the world, which

1:05:46

is also inherently impure and unclean. Back

1:05:49

to the conversation on public schooling.

1:05:51

There are issues with standardizing curriculum. I

1:05:53

agree. But it is also important

1:05:55

that people learn the fact that there are some

1:05:57

kind of standards that we are holding people to. Learning

1:06:00

the facts that, like gay people,

1:06:02

exist. Or that you can take PrEP

1:06:04

to strongly reduce your likelihood of requiring HIV.

1:06:07

Or that America was founded on two

1:06:09

genocides. Things that white evangelicals

1:06:11

might disagree with but are

1:06:13

still critical to teach. Evolution

1:06:15

is a big one of these. Second,

1:06:18

it is important for a society that people are educated.

1:06:22

It isn't the end, I'll be all, clearly, but

1:06:25

if we want doctors and inventors, if we

1:06:27

want people who know how to make decisions

1:06:29

based on their own best interest, we gotta

1:06:31

teach them what their best interests are. Presently,

1:06:34

I think we really need some help with

1:06:36

critical reading skills, for instance. And

1:06:38

third, school isn't just for learning, and I

1:06:41

think this is really where the contention lies.

1:06:43

It's for community. Yes,

1:06:45

it's to be exposed to lots of different types of

1:06:47

people. Also, it's to

1:06:49

support families. It is

1:06:51

a place for childcare if a parent needs

1:06:53

to go and work or is unable to

1:06:55

be physically present with their kids all the

1:06:57

time. Some families rely on free

1:06:59

school lunches to feed their kids they would

1:07:01

not have food otherwise. Teachers

1:07:03

are mandated reporters who can help kids

1:07:06

who are being abused and neglected at home.

1:07:09

Good teachers do indeed care about

1:07:11

your kids. They're not trying

1:07:13

to steal them from parents. They

1:07:15

do want to invest in the kids. Caring

1:07:17

for them in conjunction with the

1:07:19

parents it takes a village to raise

1:07:21

a kid and Also getting out

1:07:24

of the house is good Matureing means

1:07:26

growing apart from your family Learning

1:07:28

lessons on your own building your own

1:07:30

life being your own person having

1:07:32

your own successes and failures that your

1:07:34

family gets to celebrate and Support

1:07:36

you in and be there for you,

1:07:38

but it is building your own

1:07:40

life Also many parents are not equipped

1:07:43

to actually teach their kids K

1:07:45

through 12 Online videos don't

1:07:47

get you that far. Kids

1:07:49

with disabilities may need help beyond what

1:07:51

an individual parent can provide. In

1:07:53

Maryland, for instance, if you can

1:07:55

prove to a public school that they cannot meet

1:07:58

your child's needs, the district is required to pay

1:08:00

for them to go to a school that can. Whether

1:08:03

or not they actually do that, or just engage

1:08:05

in a prolonged legal fight to bleed a family dry,

1:08:07

they don't have to report bad numbers is a

1:08:09

different story. But theoretically, they do have to provide that

1:08:11

support. Brooke, you talked

1:08:13

about this, but in a vacuum, I'm

1:08:15

not anti -homeschooling. It's impossible to get a

1:08:17

holistic picture of the educational outcomes of foreign

1:08:19

schoolers in many parts because they distrust

1:08:21

the state and aren't likely to report these

1:08:23

outcomes, whatever. But I know that

1:08:25

you can be homeschooled and turn out fine. You

1:08:28

can go to public school and be masked up. There

1:08:30

are plenty of ways to live life well, and homeschooling

1:08:32

can be part of it. Homeschoolers like

1:08:34

to say that they have these incredible

1:08:36

educational outcomes. That's not

1:08:38

true. No. And again, it

1:08:40

varies wildly. If you have a stay -at -home

1:08:42

mom and it's just you and your brother

1:08:44

and she gets to invest all the time

1:08:46

in the two of you, that's very different

1:08:48

from perhaps a Duggars situation where it's kids

1:08:50

teaching kids teaching kids, right? Yeah,

1:08:53

I mean, sure. I'm sure there will be

1:08:55

lots of people who are like, I'm homeschooled

1:08:57

and it was great and I had wonderful

1:08:59

experience. Like good. I'm not saying it should

1:09:01

be illegal. I'm not saying

1:09:03

the government should mandate this thing

1:09:05

just because I disagree with it. It's

1:09:08

Wild to me what they think is

1:09:10

happening also then get more involved in your

1:09:12

public school like what do you mean? Why

1:09:15

don't why do you feel like you

1:09:17

don't know anything that's going on in your

1:09:19

public school? Mm -hmm. It feels like that

1:09:21

satanic panic again It sure does the

1:09:23

satanic panic never really went away Yeah, and

1:09:26

Dobson will have a whole different conversation

1:09:28

about this but Dobson was a big purveyor

1:09:30

of that as You just talked about

1:09:32

the homeschooling movement isn't just trying to make

1:09:34

homeschooling an option They did that in

1:09:36

the 90s. It is a legal alternative everywhere.

1:09:39

They are actively trying to destroy

1:09:41

public education. Saying public

1:09:43

schools are irreparably damaging your kids or

1:09:45

warning of groomers who want to turn your

1:09:47

kids away from Jesus isn't the stance

1:09:49

of a movement willing to compromise, willing to

1:09:52

find nuance, to work together. And

1:09:54

as if I need any more proof, let's end

1:09:56

where we started. Because of

1:09:58

this movement, the Department of Education

1:10:00

is being dismantled. Brooke,

1:10:02

do you know if the Department of Education actually does? That's

1:10:05

okay. Most people don't. It doesn't

1:10:07

standardize curriculum. It's not saying your kids

1:10:09

have to be gay in second

1:10:11

grade. More than anything else, the

1:10:14

Department of Education is a civil rights

1:10:16

department of the government. It's in charge of

1:10:18

Title IX funding, for instance, to help

1:10:20

protect against sex -based discrimination. It

1:10:22

helps protect students with disabilities. It

1:10:24

helps underfunded schools, districts. We

1:10:26

can talk about if it does that particularly well, but

1:10:28

that's what it's trying to do. And with

1:10:30

Trump's executive order, all of those benefits

1:10:33

will be pared down or eliminated. Homeschooling

1:10:36

is not a generalizable

1:10:38

solution. The fondness for the

1:10:40

past is at the core of fascism

1:10:42

and evangelicalism, I repeat myself, and

1:10:44

is not based on actual history. Only

1:10:47

because of free education, free

1:10:49

public education, have we been

1:10:51

able to make sure that many people are able to read

1:10:53

and write and do math. It has

1:10:55

allowed people to change their socioeconomic conditions,

1:10:57

to a degree. It gives

1:10:59

people independence, and a way that when homeschooling

1:11:01

was the education du jour, we just did not

1:11:03

have. Trump is

1:11:05

giving tax cuts to homeschool families. It doesn't

1:11:07

necessarily have to be this way, but in

1:11:09

practice, it will come at the expense of

1:11:11

public school funding. People who

1:11:14

can afford homeschool or attend private

1:11:16

schools largely will be fine. It

1:11:18

is everyone else who is going to suffer, and

1:11:20

that suffering breaks down along predictable lines. The

1:11:23

people who will suffer the most are people

1:11:25

who are already the most at risk and already

1:11:28

hurting the most. The reasons

1:11:30

for the state of public education as

1:11:32

it exists are complex and multifaceted, But

1:11:34

there are clear villains to the story.

1:11:37

Donald Trump and Betsy DeVos are up there.

1:11:39

So is Linda McMahon, our current secretary of

1:11:41

education. But the main

1:11:44

villain to me is James Dobson.

1:11:46

Always. I hate James Dobson. I

1:11:48

hate James Dobson. Don't put him

1:11:50

in my little earbud ever again. You

1:11:52

didn't like hearing his voice in his little

1:11:54

mmm. When he went. No,

1:11:58

I did not. Are we recording something?

1:12:00

Yeah. yeah, Oh, bye. That one. I

1:12:06

hate James

1:12:08

Dobson as

1:12:10

a of

1:12:12

love, written,

1:12:14

recorded, edited

1:12:16

and produced

1:12:18

by me,

1:12:21

Jake. I'm

1:12:23

honored to be joined by my amazing co

1:12:25

-host, Brooke. If enjoying the

1:12:27

show, please consider rating reviewing it.

1:12:29

and you want to connect with

1:12:31

us more, you can find us

1:12:33

on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, and

1:12:36

BlueSky at IHateJamesDobson and, unfortunately

1:12:38

still, on Twitter IHateJDobs.

1:12:41

If you want to email us, you

1:12:43

can do so at IHateJamesDobson at .com. Special

1:12:45

thanks, as always, to Drew, Lindsay,

1:12:48

DJ, and Jack. Our theme

1:12:50

music is by Moodmaze the song is

1:12:52

called Trendsetter. Thank you for enjoying

1:12:54

the show. Music

1:13:19

That's the voice that interviewed Ted Bundy.