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part two of Ice Cold Case.

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It was an inside job. That's

0:28

what everyone always said. It was

0:30

an inside job. I've heard different

0:32

things. It was his own gun.

0:35

There's still rumors and talk on

0:37

the street that McCourt for the

0:39

street. All roads will lead to

0:42

Mr. McCourt. Mr. McCourt. You didn't

0:44

think that's true, huh? Well, I

0:46

never expected to hear from you,

0:48

ever, in my whole life. You

0:50

know, what we have are some

0:52

notes that theoretically are not a

0:54

public record. I was like, that

0:56

was it. They don't want to

0:58

solve the murder or not. Because

1:00

again, the family thinks we're not

1:03

doing anything. Which leaves me to

1:05

be somebody in the family or

1:07

somebody who knows. The most corrupt,

1:09

you got damn full least department

1:11

you ever see in your time.

1:13

You know, that's just the tip

1:15

of the iceberg. There's a story

1:17

in Greek mythology about a

1:19

man called Sisyphus.

1:21

There's a story

1:24

in Greek mythology

1:26

about a man called

1:28

Sisyphus. Sisyphus

1:31

was known for

1:33

his punishment. His

1:35

task for all of

1:38

eternity was to roll a

1:40

boulder up a hill only

1:42

to watch it roll back down every

1:45

single time. Most people would

1:47

call that situation hopeless, but

1:49

sometimes it's not an option to

1:51

stop pushing. Sometimes it's not a

1:53

choice. His determination is

1:55

a reflection of our own

1:58

capabilities to push through seemingly...

2:00

impossible circumstances. Every push up

2:02

the hill is an opportunity for

2:04

growth and self-discovery. While I know

2:07

this investigation into the murder of

2:09

my father, John Cornelius McGee, has

2:12

seemed just like watching a boulder

2:14

roll down the hill. I've mostly

2:16

experienced the never-ending pressure of that

2:19

boulder, sometimes crushing me under its

2:21

weight. But each time, I've learned

2:23

something new, about the case, about

2:26

the context. about my dad's case,

2:28

and it adds new momentum for

2:30

the next push. It's easy to

2:33

feel frustrated by the lack of

2:35

progress, and I won't recap all

2:38

that has happened up to this

2:40

point. But for a moment, I

2:42

have to acknowledge what has come

2:45

with each trek up the hill.

2:47

More visibility for my dad's case,

2:49

new sources uncovered, local relationships established.

2:52

Sure, there have been some dead

2:54

ends, but with each halt has

2:57

come new clarity. Even

2:59

if I am angry, exhausted, crushed

3:02

when there is no end

3:04

in sight, I remember why I

3:06

am here in the first place.

3:08

I started this with the

3:10

hopes that I'd find some sense

3:13

of answers, closure, justice. But so

3:15

far, all I've got is

3:17

a sense of dissatisfaction that will

3:20

last a lifetime. This case is

3:22

ice cold. Only heat can

3:24

melt the ice. And I want

3:26

this so badly. I'm willing to

3:29

burn the house down while

3:31

I'm inside of it. Sisyphus spent

3:33

an eternity doing the same thing

3:36

and never making it over

3:38

the hill. The difference between me

3:40

and that Greek myth, I'm going

3:43

to push the boulder to

3:45

the other side, whatever it takes.

4:08

Any story is at the mercy

4:10

of the people willing to share

4:12

information with you. When I first

4:14

started, I was very careful not

4:16

to ruffle any feathers for the

4:19

sake of maintaining a relationship with

4:21

sources. Most of these people aren't

4:23

just sources. They are also my

4:25

family. I'm speaking with my dad's

4:27

siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins, friends who

4:29

treated my dad as if they

4:31

were family. Anything that might make

4:33

them upset could jeopardize their willingness

4:36

to speak with me again. Even

4:38

with trying to be as respectful

4:40

and sensitive as possible, there were

4:42

people who were very angry with

4:44

what I did choose to share.

4:46

What a lot of you may

4:48

not realize is there is so

4:51

much information that I have held

4:53

back. Not because I don't want

4:55

to share it, but because trust

4:57

is a currency in an investigation

4:59

like this. People only talk when

5:01

they feel safe, and in some

5:03

cases, when they feel like they

5:05

have something to gain. I've had

5:08

to navigate that carefully. balancing the

5:10

need for answers with the reality

5:12

that one wrong move could shut

5:14

a door for forever. In my

5:16

mind, that's what a real journalist

5:18

does. Build trust and rapport. So

5:20

that's what I tried to do

5:23

too. With the details that haven't

5:25

been shared, I've still kept note

5:27

of things that seem suspicious or

5:29

worth revisiting in the future. But

5:31

now that I am back at

5:33

a stand still, the gloves are

5:35

coming off. I have no one

5:37

left to protect or consider. I'm

5:40

giving you all that I've got.

5:42

Because frankly, I'm tired of doing

5:44

this, and I want to solve

5:46

this case and move on with

5:48

my life. I never dreamed of

5:50

becoming a detective. When my life

5:52

isn't being consumed by this case,

5:55

I actually much prefer working in

5:57

comedy. I am just a daughter,

5:59

wanting to know who took my

6:01

dad away. There's a moment in

6:03

every long fight where something shifts.

6:05

The exhaustion... the waiting, the backtracking,

6:07

it either breaks you or it

6:09

pushes you into a different gear.

6:12

I'm in that different gear now.

6:14

My goal now is to get

6:16

all the information I've gathered out

6:18

into the public. That means forcing

6:20

the police to take the information

6:22

I have gathered, not as a

6:24

courtesy, but as a demand. This

6:27

requires me to take a new

6:29

approach. Show up places that I

6:31

have not been invited to, not

6:33

take no for an answer. and

6:35

expose what has been hidden for

6:37

23 years. I am not satisfied

6:39

with the case file that was

6:41

created for my dad by the

6:44

Belmont County Sheriff's Department. Now, there's

6:46

nothing stopping me from building my

6:48

own. I've already made so many

6:50

discoveries and come to a lot

6:52

of dead ends. So when it

6:54

comes to looking at this once

6:56

again from a new perspective, I

6:59

knew I needed help finding a

7:01

new launching off point. Someone who

7:03

may have some insight was Rico

7:05

McGee. My cousin and my dad's

7:07

nephew. But most notoriously, his friend

7:09

of me. RICO is an interesting

7:11

person in this story because he

7:13

was not at my dad's house

7:16

that morning. He was in federal

7:18

prison serving a life sentence, partially

7:20

because of my dad's testimony against

7:22

him during his trial. So if

7:24

he didn't do it, why spend

7:26

so much time thinking about him?

7:28

He's the missing link of this

7:31

entire case. He was the connector

7:33

of this community, the family. This

7:35

industry, anyone who was attached to

7:37

this case, has an attachment to

7:39

RICO. His knowledge is the most

7:41

powerful thing I have right now.

7:43

Talking to him wasn't as simple

7:45

as picking up the phone. RICO

7:48

is being held in a prison

7:50

that only allows for phone visits.

7:52

No in-person visitation. To even have

7:54

a conversation, I had to download

7:56

an app, go through the approval

7:58

process, and wait for him to

8:00

add me to add me to

8:02

his visitor list. A list that,

8:05

by the way, only he controlled.

8:07

It was up to him whether

8:09

or not I'd get my shot.

8:11

When I finally did, in July

8:13

of 2024, we spent a little

8:15

over an hour on the phone.

8:17

The reality of fighting for my

8:20

dad on all fronts means I'm

8:22

constantly wearing myself thin, physically, mentally,

8:24

emotionally. The day that I spoke

8:26

to Rico, I was in Denver,

8:28

Colorado at a conference to talk

8:30

about my dad's case, while also

8:32

fighting off a pretty bad flu.

8:34

But this isn't a job. It's

8:37

my life. And I don't get

8:39

any days off. This isn't the

8:41

first time I'm talking to a

8:43

family member that I've never met

8:45

before. It was, however, the first

8:47

time I was meeting a family

8:49

member through the barrier of prison.

8:52

It's a stressful way to meet

8:54

someone. Hi. Nice to meet you.

8:56

Did you kill my dad? I

8:58

wasn't sure how to even prepare

9:00

for a call with him. I

9:02

had no idea what he would

9:04

be willing to share or how

9:06

he felt about me. But Rico

9:09

was a man whose reputation preceded

9:11

him. I really don't feel that

9:13

comfortable talking about Rico. Rico can't

9:15

be violent. Can he be that

9:17

violent? I don't know. I'm cordial

9:19

with Rico, but I don't trust

9:21

him. Rico is a real smart,

9:24

intelligent individual, right? He can play

9:26

and they can manipulate almost any

9:28

situation in the world. He plays

9:30

life like he played chess. RICO

9:32

and I had never had any

9:34

interaction at all, so it only

9:36

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12:56

it's Friday, July 12th, 2024.

12:59

And I am probably five

13:01

minutes away from getting a

13:03

phone call from Rico McGee.

13:06

I feel like it's not

13:08

even really happening. I don't

13:11

know if it'll feel real

13:13

until it's like we're on

13:16

the phone. It won't be

13:18

video, so I feel like

13:20

there's not going to be

13:23

a lot of leeway with

13:25

reading any expressions, which feels

13:28

difficult. I just hope that

13:30

I can trust my gut

13:33

enough to really know what's

13:35

true, because I feel like

13:37

I've been doubting myself so

13:40

much lately, because everyone seems

13:42

so convincing. I just don't

13:45

know anymore, but I'm going

13:47

to hear him out. But

13:50

I have no idea really

13:52

even the tone of this

13:55

conversation. So I guess we'll

13:57

see. Hello?

14:01

How you doing? Oh, I'm good.

14:04

I'm just sitting there laying on

14:06

my bed, chilling, watching TV, talking

14:08

to the guys at here and

14:11

shit. But yeah, you know what

14:13

I'm saying? It's a long time

14:15

now we're here. You know, I've

14:18

been hearing a lot of different

14:20

things and shit from certain individuals

14:22

and shit. So I just was

14:25

going to clear the air. You

14:27

feel me? Yeah, so what you

14:29

got on your mind? I wanted

14:32

to know about everything. What really

14:34

happened back in the early 90s

14:37

that got you locked up for

14:39

life? What was your relationship like

14:41

with my dad before all of

14:44

that? What did you do for

14:46

those decades in federal prison? How

14:48

did you get out of a

14:51

life sentence with no possibility of

14:53

parole? And the obvious question, who

14:55

killed my dad? But I had

14:58

to start small. He had planted

15:00

his feet in the ground, letting

15:02

me know that he's hurt things.

15:05

The responsibility was now on me

15:07

to let him know that I

15:10

was there to listen with an

15:12

open mind and let him get

15:14

whatever he needed off his chest.

15:17

A lot of things, if you're

15:19

comfortable, just sort of starting from

15:21

like the beginning, but you know,

15:24

whatever you're comfortable hearing, obviously. But

15:26

when I started off like this,

15:28

first I'm going to tell you

15:31

a little bit about me, your

15:33

dad. our family, you know what

15:35

I'm saying? Let me explain something

15:38

about your dad. Your dad was

15:40

like a brother to me. Me,

15:43

your dad, Uncle Charles, Reggie, Eric,

15:45

whenever me and your brother was

15:47

back home before we came and

15:50

moved back home, grandma took care

15:52

of us. We lived with grandma.

15:54

We didn't live with our dads,

15:57

none of that shit. We was

15:59

that grandma house. We all was,

16:01

we was close family. It was

16:04

inseparable. You know what I'm saying.

16:06

We bought each other. We cried

16:09

together, we got our ass beat

16:11

together, all that shit. Compromor was

16:13

the backbone to our family, which

16:16

you probably never got a chance

16:18

to meet before she passed. I

16:20

don't know if you did or

16:23

not, because I was still an

16:25

accostalator for a long time. There's

16:27

no doubt about it. At one

16:30

point in time, the McGee's were

16:32

extremely close. It's hard to imagine,

16:34

given the fragmented family I see

16:37

now. But it's like going to

16:39

a run-down small town and hearing

16:42

stories of an economic boom that

16:44

created a bustling energy throughout the

16:46

whole place. Now all that's left

16:49

are whispers of how things used

16:51

to be and the few people

16:53

who are nostalgic for those times.

16:56

The McGee's are nothing like they

16:58

used to be. I could hypothesize

17:00

what contributed to that downfall and

17:03

an educated guess would place a

17:05

lot of that blame on Rico's

17:07

trial. But Rico says that he

17:10

and my dad were close. When

17:12

I asked him if he thought

17:15

my dad was killed because of

17:17

his involvement as a confidential informant,

17:19

he quickly dismissed my theory. So

17:22

it wasn't nothing about no mother-something,

17:24

none of that shit going on.

17:26

Which her dad and me. Like

17:29

I said, you still got all

17:31

your conspiracy theorists, mother-fuckers out there

17:33

with the shit and top of

17:36

the shit, because what played out

17:38

with the situation, and the situation

17:40

wasn't that. You know what I'm

17:43

saying? The real thing to that

17:45

is your dad got killed not

17:48

because he was The robbery, this

17:50

perked up my suspicion. Nothing about

17:52

that home invasion of robbery. And

17:55

that's what mother's don't want to

17:57

fail to realize because you got

17:59

other niggles out there that was

18:02

in all in that shit, that

18:04

niggles are scared of and everybody

18:06

keeping their mouth shut. The robbery,

18:09

this perked up my suspicion. Nothing

18:11

about that home invasion added up.

18:13

To me... The home invasion gone

18:16

wrong theory seemed so unlikely. The

18:18

men spent so much time in

18:21

Omar's house where nothing was stolen

18:23

and no one was killed. And

18:25

without even entering my dad's house,

18:28

he ended up dead. It never

18:30

made sense. But I know Rico

18:32

knows things. So now I have

18:35

to spend the rest of the

18:37

conversation trying to figure out if

18:39

he is pointing me in the

18:42

right direction, intentionally sway me from

18:44

the path, or if he's just

18:46

guessing like I am. I have

18:49

my own point of view of

18:51

how I think people should and

18:54

shouldn't act, information they should be

18:56

willing to give up, and the

18:58

emotional ties they should have to

19:01

my dad because of my own

19:03

life experience. RICO has spent most

19:05

of his life behind bars, and

19:08

it makes me question his own

19:10

bias, coming at this from the

19:12

perspective of a career criminal whose

19:15

morals and values were shaped by

19:17

the code he had to adhere

19:19

to in the prison system. It's

19:22

a world my mom and my

19:24

grandma tried very hard to protect

19:27

me from. But it must be

19:29

considered when talking about this case

19:31

and the environment my dad lived

19:34

in. This unwritten code has been

19:36

talked about by prisoners themselves. One

19:38

man Charles Norman, who has been

19:41

incarcerated for nearly four decades, describes

19:43

it through prison writers.com. When you

19:45

come to prison, you're observed and

19:48

judged by everyone around you. Are

19:50

you weak? Strong, poor, rich, gay,

19:52

or straight, snitch? Are you good

19:55

people? or a piece of shit,

19:57

how you were judged, how you

20:00

respond to an initial testing period,

20:02

how you exhibit your manhood, character

20:04

or lack thereof will determine to

20:07

a considerable extent how difficult or

20:09

hard your time in prison will

20:11

be. One's reputation often becomes a

20:14

matter of life or death. When

20:16

you follow the convict code, you

20:18

reap the benefits of the brotherhood.

20:21

Speaking of camaraderie. There's the Darryl

20:23

Smith of it all. RICO and

20:25

Darryl's relationship is complicated at best.

20:28

They were once close friends who

20:30

now seem to be sworn enemies.

20:33

While neither speaks highly of the

20:35

other, they both talk in a

20:37

way that displays a familiarity that

20:40

could only be formed over decades.

20:42

Given Darryl's role in this story

20:44

and my knowledge of their relationship,

20:47

I had to ask RICO what

20:49

he thought. Of course, RICO already

20:51

knew that I had talked with

20:54

I had talked with Darryt with

20:56

Darryt with Darryl. Because RICO seems

20:58

to know everything. It's common for

21:01

familiarity to breed a kind of

21:03

understanding that runs deeper than blood.

21:06

Yet, it doesn't always end in

21:08

friendship. RICO's bitterness towards Darryl feels

21:10

like it's rooted in a sense

21:13

of betrayal. An old wound that

21:15

never fully healed. In a world

21:17

where loyalty is everything, the cracks

21:20

in their relationship are glaring. When

21:22

RICO talks about Darryl, It's not

21:24

just frustration. There's something heavier beneath

21:27

the surface. Let me just put

21:29

it like this in a little

21:31

shit. That's his head low. That's

21:34

what he do. That's his end

21:36

low. A girl gets high. He's

21:39

a thief. And he keeps a

21:41

whole bunch of boar shit going

21:43

on all the lot of fucking

21:46

time. That's what he do. And

21:48

that's why I don't... I stopped

21:50

bucking the dirt. I basically raised

21:53

her from Nut Creek and Nutt

21:55

and everything her learned. for me,

21:57

I treated him like a brother,

22:00

but he don't know how to

22:02

motherfuckin' listen. He always stayed up

22:04

in the middle of some shit.

22:07

I ain't wanna say nothing on

22:09

here. I'm just letting you know,

22:12

like, that's what he'd do. Yeah,

22:14

I don't, I don't, I'll stop

22:16

messing with dirt when I can't

22:19

home, because of a lot of

22:21

shit, but you know, his name

22:23

always be involved in, I lost

22:26

another cousin, fucking dirt, first time.

22:28

and that's because he's always in

22:30

the middle of something in his

22:33

biggest property love. Rico's version of

22:35

Darryl's M.O., his method of operation,

22:37

is a snapshot of how he

22:40

views the world. It's not just

22:42

about crimes, it's about patterns, about

22:45

recognizing the signs of someone who's

22:47

been down this road before. The

22:49

term M.O. hadn't even crossed my

22:52

mind until RICO dropped it, but

22:54

it's fitting. a signature that marks

22:56

someone's every move, leaving a trail

22:59

for those who know how to

23:01

see it. But we all have

23:03

our own habits, our own routines

23:06

that become second nature. Even RICO

23:08

has an MO. Remain unassuming. He

23:10

doesn't get directly implicated because he's

23:13

always just close enough to the

23:15

action without leaving a trace. His

23:18

MO is what keeps him out

23:20

of trouble, even though he knows

23:22

everything. His knowledge is vast. unsettling

23:25

even. It makes you question how

23:27

he's always so close to the

23:29

heart of things, without ever seeming

23:32

to touch them. But Rico's beef

23:34

with Darryl is still so vague.

23:36

They both don't have or won't

23:39

give concrete answers for what exactly

23:41

happened that caused the rift in

23:43

their friendship. He's always in some

23:46

shit, isn't really a reason for

23:48

why they went from getting locked

23:51

up together to being enemies. Could

23:53

it possibly be over a deal

23:55

that went wrong? Could that deal

23:58

be my dad's murder? But something

24:00

isn't adding up here. If RICO

24:02

thought Darryl killed his uncle, I

24:05

would think, given his reputation, that

24:07

he'd handle it. In all their

24:09

resentment towards each other, there's this

24:12

equal level of respect, which goes

24:14

back to something I learned when

24:16

I first spoke with Darryl and

24:19

was reminded when I sat on

24:21

the film with RICO. There's a

24:24

code. And they're following it. The

24:30

mysterious disappearance of Mara Murray is

24:32

a story that's been told hundreds

24:34

of times by strangers. But absent

24:36

in the story you've heard are

24:39

the voices of those who knew

24:41

Mara, those closest to the investigation.

24:43

Not anymore. I'm her sister Julie,

24:45

and from media pressure, this is

24:47

the untold story of Mara Murray.

24:50

Join me as I cut out

24:52

the noise and reveal who Mara

24:54

really was with exclusive interviews. Pretty

24:56

first podcast. First ever. There's a

24:58

reason that you're one of the

25:00

only people I respond to. Peak

25:03

into the investigation efforts. The target

25:05

was gone. Where did the target

25:07

go? If I couldn't believe that

25:09

this is an investigation? Are you

25:11

kidding me? And explore the impact

25:14

on those left behind. I shouldn't

25:16

be afraid, but at this point

25:18

I am. Subscribe to media pressure

25:20

wherever you listen to podcasts. I

25:26

got out of the shower as

25:29

I was cleaning off the mirror

25:31

and I saw fingers pushing through

25:33

my window. He looked very demonic

25:36

and he said like a really

25:38

scrappy voice. He said, hey, I

25:40

headed up that way and my

25:43

dog barked and I looked over

25:45

and he was probably 20 feet

25:47

away from me walking straight towards

25:49

me. He used her phone after

25:52

he had killed her to add

25:54

me on Facebook. I'm Jamie BB.

25:56

And I'm Jake Deptula. We're the

25:59

host of Strictly Salk. bring you

26:01

heroic stories of those who have

26:03

survived at the hands of a

26:06

stalker. To hear these stories and

26:08

more, listen to strictly stalking wherever

26:10

you get your podcast. The root

26:13

of this conversation with RICO is

26:15

to determine what exactly he knows

26:17

or thinks about what happened on

26:20

the morning of July 11th 2002.

26:22

RICO had heard about all my

26:24

theories before we spoke. which means

26:26

he knew that I had some

26:29

suspicion that he orchestrated the hit.

26:31

Everyone I've spoken to has denied

26:33

culpability, and RICO was no different.

26:36

Because it is what it is,

26:38

you know what I'm saying? And

26:40

like I say, anything I do,

26:43

that girl, I stand on that

26:45

shit. I'm a man's man. I

26:47

still couldn't understand how he thought

26:50

this was a robbery gone wrong.

26:52

If that were true, this should

26:54

have been a pretty simple open

26:57

shut case. When I've talked with

26:59

other family members, there's a sense

27:01

of secrecy that I haven't been

27:04

able to uncover, like they are

27:06

protecting someone. This is why I've

27:08

been so suspicious of family members.

27:10

Maybe the family is trying to

27:13

keep another cousin out of prison,

27:15

but I've never been able to

27:17

solve that puzzle. Now I have

27:20

to consider the possibility that the

27:22

pieces had been scattered on purpose.

27:24

not hidden by strangers, but by

27:27

the very people who should have

27:29

been desperate for the truth. In

27:31

true RICO fashion, he doesn't come

27:34

right out and say it. but

27:36

his implications speak for themselves. So

27:38

let me ask you, because the

27:41

way that you're describing it seems

27:43

pretty simple, right? Like there was

27:45

a robbery, it went a little

27:47

haywire, there were these guys there,

27:50

but then why does it feel

27:52

like, you know, at the time,

27:54

anyone could have gotten this solved

27:57

even within the family? I mean,

27:59

anyone could have. Curtis, your dad,

28:01

anybody could have been like, who's

28:04

like happened. You want me to

28:06

tell you why they didn't get

28:08

it solved? The reason why they

28:11

didn't get it solved is because

28:13

motherfuckers were trying to detect their

28:15

people that created the situation at

28:18

the beginning that was going to

28:20

the Pimble Talk. That's what that

28:22

was. Nobody didn't want to see

28:25

the other, the other problems come

28:27

in to play saying nobody. that

28:29

they cared about would get in

28:31

trouble. And the only reason why

28:34

that shouldn't be is because the

28:36

family is trying to protect whoever

28:38

they're trying to protect. But there

28:41

ain't no mother fucking mister here

28:43

who did it. I've got to

28:45

stay in jail for 20 years

28:48

and come outside the jail and

28:50

know every single piece of the

28:52

puzzle. I'm sure somebody else been

28:55

doing it for the police to

28:57

tell one of our family when

28:59

it was like, well, yeah, I

29:02

want to know who we did

29:04

it. Ask him. He spoke with

29:06

conviction, but conviction wasn't the same

29:09

as honesty. He wanted me to

29:11

believe that the reason why he

29:13

didn't. Because nobody don't want to

29:15

come and stand up and say,

29:18

well I know they did it

29:20

because I've seen this or I

29:22

did that unless they put their

29:25

nuts in the face and they

29:27

get caught up. He spoke with

29:29

conviction, but conviction wasn't the same

29:32

as honesty. He wanted me to

29:34

believe that the reason my father's

29:36

case remained unsolved wasn't because it

29:39

was unsolvable. but because those closest

29:41

to him had made sure it

29:43

stayed that way. That was something

29:46

I had long suspected, but never

29:48

heard stated so plainly. Rika wasn't

29:50

just answering my questions. He was

29:52

shifting the weight of responsibility. If

29:55

justice hadn't been served, it wasn't

29:57

because the truth was unknowable. It's

29:59

clear to me now, but I

30:02

have to ask him directly. For

30:04

some reason, the words were hard

30:06

to say. The last four years

30:09

of my life had been consumed

30:11

by this question and the burden

30:13

to find its answer. But no

30:16

matter how many times I've asked,

30:18

did you kill my dad, it

30:20

never gets easier. So can I

30:23

have you, you know who killed

30:25

my dad? I know all parties

30:27

involved. I know all parties involved.

30:30

I know everybody was there. Everybody

30:32

was there. I know me there.

30:34

And because, no, he's saying one

30:36

of them with his own eyes

30:39

for sure. But they keep on

30:41

nothing talking about, talking about, trying

30:43

to say he was, his story

30:46

kept trying, he was like, he

30:48

knows what the fuck he's saying.

30:50

But like I said, the reason

30:53

why the motherfuckies didn't push the

30:55

issue, because some, back then, you

30:57

got a different, you got a

31:00

different task force and shit, and

31:02

all that shit around there now,

31:04

and the whole shit is different

31:07

from 20-year, 20-some years ago. But

31:09

sometimes those answers are difficult to

31:11

process. You know, I just want

31:13

you to sit back, man, to

31:16

collect your thoughts for today. And

31:18

like I said, I hope you've

31:20

got to understand that your dad

31:23

ain't leave here because of him

31:25

being a sniff. He did not

31:27

leave here because of that. Yes,

31:30

he did do that. We all

31:32

know he did that. But he

31:34

ain't the first motherfucker that did

31:37

it. He ain't the last motherfucker

31:39

that did it. And it's going

31:41

to be a lot more and

31:44

more of something. going to do

31:46

it because if he wouldn't if

31:48

that's true when it happened he

31:51

would still be here today because

31:53

they don't even want to kill

31:55

him because he was snitch her

31:57

because they are snitch her and

32:00

that's and that's facts that's true

32:02

but that ain't why he left

32:04

the numbers you know I want

32:07

you to know that information so

32:09

you can live with what the

32:11

thoughts of knowing the truth that's

32:14

the truth that ain't why he

32:16

got here when I was snitch

32:18

Niggas do get killed for that

32:21

though. So that's why I'm just

32:23

like, damn, like, why you want

32:25

to get up on the stand

32:28

and just lie or lose, you

32:30

know, understand like that. And, and,

32:32

and, but you know, that wasn't

32:35

enough for me to harm him.

32:37

You could understand, I would have

32:39

never harmed him, like, not me.

32:41

In his insistence that he didn't

32:44

do it, he also brought up

32:46

something that I never really considered.

32:48

My dad getting killed left a

32:51

lot of people without closure, including

32:53

RICO. Beneath his hardened exterior, I

32:55

could hear something else in his

32:58

voice. Regret, frustration, a sense of

33:00

loss he didn't know how to

33:02

name. He claimed he had no

33:05

animosity toward my dad, but his

33:07

words painted a different picture. One

33:09

of unresolved betrayal. It wasn't just

33:12

that my father had testified against

33:14

him. It was that RICO had

33:16

never gotten a chance to ask

33:18

why. It's just fucking, it's fucking,

33:21

your dad did what he did

33:23

to me. I still didn't have

33:25

no malice in my heart because

33:28

even when I was like laying

33:30

in prison during my time with

33:32

the shit, I was just like,

33:35

man, when I get out of

33:37

this mother fucking man, I'm just

33:39

sitting down really and I'm just

33:42

asking him why. You do that

33:44

to me. While you did it

33:46

to me, you know, I'll never

33:49

be able to get that answer.

33:51

Like, what made you do that

33:53

to me? Not only did you

33:56

do it to me, you lied

33:58

on me. For

34:00

years, I had told myself that

34:03

finding the truth would bring me

34:05

peace. But sitting here, hearing RICO

34:07

speak, I wondered if the truth

34:09

would only leave me with more

34:11

questions. RICO claims he knows what

34:13

really happened, and for him, that's

34:15

still not enough. If justice wasn't

34:18

served, would I spend the rest

34:20

of my life looking for someone

34:22

to blame? Or worse, but I

34:24

start to understand why no one

34:26

wanted to say it out loud.

34:35

RICO and I have been talking

34:37

for a while. I'm getting a

34:39

sense of him and he's getting

34:41

a sense of me. We talked

34:43

about a lot in the hour

34:45

and a half conversation we had.

34:48

For a moment, there was a

34:50

simple dose of humanity. I could

34:52

feel the weight of his decisions

34:54

and his path in his voice.

34:56

And whether it was part of

34:58

his charm or a genuine hope

35:00

for his family to succeed, I

35:03

could see why so many of

35:05

our family members rooted for him.

35:07

doesn't mean trusting it. There's a

35:09

difference between understanding someone and believing

35:11

them. RICO had spent a lifetime

35:13

surviving. Navigating systems built to crush

35:15

people like him, like my dad,

35:18

like so many others in my

35:20

family. When survival becomes your only

35:22

mode, the truth can start to

35:24

bend. Not because you're lying, but

35:26

because reality itself gets rewritten to

35:28

fit the choices that you had

35:30

to make. Yeah,

35:34

so that you do know. Like I

35:36

said, I'm always here, man. You can

35:38

write text whenever you want. If you've

35:40

got anything else, you want to, you

35:42

know what I'm going to talk about,

35:44

whether it is this or anything in

35:46

life for you do someone to maybe

35:48

give you an uplifting on the direction

35:50

you're trying to choose in life. I'm

35:52

always open to that type of conversation

35:54

because I love to see mine do

35:56

good. All y'all do good. I want

35:58

somebody to become famous and be able

36:00

to come back and save some of

36:02

the youth that's in our family and

36:04

take them somewhere and let them get

36:06

something new. Show them something new. Get

36:08

them up out of these ghettos and

36:11

it gets a lot of us, man.

36:13

And some motherfucker's got. Great things that

36:15

they can do, they just haven't had

36:17

the windows opportunity to be able to

36:19

shine the light on anything. So, you

36:21

know, if you just happen to be

36:23

one of those that make it, you

36:25

do have our brothers and sisters, a

36:27

lot of them. You got a lot

36:29

of nieces and nephews and all type

36:31

of shit that you don't know. You

36:33

got, man, you got a lot of

36:35

brothers and sisters. Try to reach out

36:37

and get to know them, man. And

36:39

if they don't want to, just they

36:41

don't want to deal with you deal

36:43

with you deal with you, hey, hey,

36:45

hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, fuck it,

36:47

fuck it. I couldn't

36:49

help but wonder if we

36:51

had built a connection or

36:53

if I was a pawn

36:55

in his game. But there

36:57

was something so raw and

36:59

real, not only about what

37:01

he was saying, but how

37:04

he was saying it that

37:06

really resonated with me. In

37:08

a lot of ways, RICO

37:10

and my dad and even

37:12

Darryl Smith have a lot

37:14

in common. They are victims

37:16

of circumstance. Dark, racially motivated,

37:18

systemic circumstance, but circumstance nonetheless.

37:20

Each of them made decisions,

37:22

ones that got them behind

37:24

bars or in my dad's

37:26

case, possibly got him killed.

37:29

But they didn't choose this

37:31

life for the thrill. They

37:33

chose it for their own

37:35

survival. And that, I understand,

37:37

because I chose this path

37:39

to solve my dad's murder

37:41

from the same instinct. I

37:43

couldn't live with the weight

37:45

of this massive unknown. The

37:47

knowledge that someone killed my

37:49

dad and never had to

37:51

answer for it. It was

37:53

going to kill me. But

37:56

I never was a bad

37:58

person. Even though I did

38:00

some bad things, I didn't

38:02

live to be a bad

38:04

person. I lived with a

38:06

good person. And like I

38:08

told you, I was a

38:10

family man. I made sure,

38:12

and I loved my family,

38:14

whether it was right or

38:16

wrong, whether they did good

38:18

or bad, I still loved

38:20

them. So it just hurt.

38:23

They keep hearing my name

38:25

brought up in this bullshit.

38:27

RICO talks about family like

38:29

it's unshakable. Like it's the

38:31

one thing that's what they

38:33

did. I never do that.

38:35

Never. RICO talks about family

38:37

like it's unshakable. Like it's

38:39

the one thing that can't

38:41

be broken no matter what.

38:43

But if that were true,

38:45

I wouldn't be here. If

38:47

that were true, I wouldn't

38:50

have had to pick up

38:52

the pieces of a shattered

38:54

story and try to make

38:56

sense of it on my

38:58

own. Family should have meant

39:00

protection. It should have meant

39:02

answers. But instead, it's been

39:04

silence, contradictions, and a web

39:06

of allegiances that I still

39:08

don't fully understand. There's two

39:10

codes. One for prison, and

39:12

one for family. They provide

39:14

protection, loyalty, security. Both are

39:17

always there, woven into every

39:19

relationship, every action. I've felt

39:21

the incredibly damaging effects of

39:23

the prison code. It's unspoken,

39:25

but I learned it despite

39:27

never being in prison. Its

39:29

implications have kept me from

39:31

closing this case. And yet,

39:33

despite having all this family,

39:35

the family code is the

39:37

one I'm less familiar with.

39:39

I want to believe in

39:42

it. I want to believe

39:44

that no matter what, family

39:46

should protect each other. But

39:48

the reality of it isn't

39:50

as simple as I hoped.

39:52

I don't want any of

39:54

my family to be bad

39:56

people. A large part of

39:58

me wants to believe RICO

40:00

and in the family that

40:02

he says he's fighting for.

40:04

I want a family free

40:06

from the weight of criminalization,

40:09

incarceration, and suffering. I don't

40:11

want anyone in my family

40:13

to be implicated in my

40:15

father's murder. But no matter

40:17

how much I want that,

40:19

it doesn't change the reality.

40:21

RICO is in prison, and

40:23

my dad is dead. I

40:28

know you probably got a lot

40:30

of shit you gotta do today,

40:32

but I'm glad that we got

40:34

an opportunity to have this conversation.

40:36

It's been a long time coming.

40:38

I felt like maybe you was

40:40

kind of scared to the evil

40:42

talk to me. That's why you

40:44

was prolonging it, to get in

40:46

touch with me. But I've just

40:48

been having that shit on my

40:51

chest and I just don't like

40:53

my motherfuckers till you put shit

40:55

on me. that I did not

40:57

do. And like, you know, you

40:59

don't know what had really went

41:01

on, so you just know from

41:03

what's being told to you. So

41:05

I just wanted to clear the

41:07

air, because I'm about my family,

41:09

whether my family has been about

41:11

me or not, like, they love

41:13

me today and hate me tomorrow,

41:15

because they just like niggas on

41:17

the street. And sometimes your family

41:19

could be your worst fucking enemy.

41:21

You can feel them, feel them,

41:23

they'll know one time. they act

41:25

like you motherfucking children where you

41:27

ain't did nothing for him ever

41:30

in life. Maybe RICO had my

41:32

back. And maybe now I've crossed

41:34

that line. Or maybe he respects

41:36

what I'm doing for my family,

41:38

for our family. Either way, I

41:40

got what RICO was willing to

41:42

give, and I was about to

41:44

dive back into the case files

41:46

with a new perspective, again, in

41:48

the hopes that this time the

41:50

outcome would be different. It

41:56

took a lot to get a

41:58

hold of Rico. And while I

42:01

know he may not... talk to

42:03

me again, that was a risk

42:05

I was willing to take for

42:07

the sake of getting more information

42:09

from anyone who was listening to

42:12

this who may know something. I've

42:14

done a lot of the heavy

42:16

lifting. It was not easy to

42:18

find him. Talking to Rico didn't

42:21

mean I was talking to the

42:23

killer because he wasn't there. He

42:25

was important because I knew talking

42:27

to him meant I may get

42:30

more clarity on what direction to

42:32

go next. He served as a

42:34

way to get more information to

42:36

further this investigation. Not exactly a

42:38

dead end, but also not closure.

42:41

Not yet. That's the thing about

42:43

pursuing the truth. You don't often

42:45

get the full story in the

42:47

beginning. Sometimes it's about building momentum.

42:50

Like pushing a boulder up a

42:52

hill. Every conversation, every lead, every

42:54

moment spent searching, unlocks a new

42:56

answer. that gets me closer to

42:59

the other side. I don't have

43:01

all the right answers, but I'm

43:03

closer than I was yesterday. And

43:05

if you've been following along, you

43:07

know that matters. It all matters.

43:10

Because cases don't go cold on

43:12

their own. People let them. I

43:14

refuse to give up. Even if

43:16

it means spending an eternity, going

43:19

up and down one side of

43:21

the hill. My family deserves more.

43:23

I deserve more. I deserve more.

43:25

My dad deserves more. If you're

43:28

still with me and you're frustrated

43:30

that I haven't solved this, that

43:32

I'm still doing this and there's

43:34

no closure, I have something I'd

43:36

like you to consider. Why am

43:39

I being held more accountable to

43:41

solve this cold case than the

43:43

actual police? The burden of proof

43:45

lies with the officials in Belmont

43:48

County. The same officials who have

43:50

adamantly maintained they've done everything they

43:52

could to solve this case. But

43:54

everything didn't include knocking on doors

43:56

that should have been knocked on

43:59

years ago. Everything. somehow meant deciding

44:01

some witnesses weren't worth speaking to,

44:03

not even worth tracking down. Everything

44:05

often meant nothing at all. If

44:08

this is what one person with

44:10

no badge, no subpoena power, and

44:12

no official authority can do, then

44:14

tell me. What have they been

44:17

doing all this time? Next time

44:19

on Ice Cold Case. People in

44:21

the community know if they call

44:23

us and there's a problem we

44:25

will investigate it. And if there's

44:28

evidence there, we're going to prosecute

44:30

it. No, headset companies admit to

44:32

make, if someone's moving toward you

44:34

and if a smaller target, it's

44:37

usually more of a chest shot

44:39

and one shot right to the

44:41

head is, you know, it's a

44:43

pretty good shot. In video after

44:46

video, investigators say it's the men

44:48

behind the badges committing the crimes

44:50

against the very community they swore

44:52

to serve and protect and protect.

44:57

Thanks for listening to Ice

44:59

Cold Case, a yes podcast.

45:01

Recorded in Los Angeles at

45:03

Spotify Studios. This episode was written,

45:05

hosted, and produced by Madison McGee.

45:07

Also produced by Jeremy Vembo.

45:09

Copy editing and additional research

45:11

by Othelly Garcia Lawler. Sound

45:13

Engineering and Sound Design by

45:15

Shannon McMullen. Graphic Design by

45:17

A.J. Christensen by A.J. Christensen. Creative

45:20

Consulting by Michael Hough and Shakina

45:22

Starks. All outside sources are linked

45:25

in the show notes. A video

45:27

version of this episode is available

45:30

on our YouTube channel and a

45:32

transcript is available at ice coldcase.com.

45:34

To submit any tips or information

45:37

please email us at ice coldcase

45:39

podcast at gmail.com.