0:02

music music

0:11

music music

0:18

music Paul,

0:40

how are you doing today in

0:42

Denver? I'm doing fantastic. I

0:44

think I'm the opposite of

0:46

you. Sunshine, no snow

0:49

and no coat. Yeah, so

0:51

two out of three

0:53

we have over here. We

0:55

have the no coat and we

0:57

do have snow here in eastern Ontario.

0:59

But it is sunny at least

1:01

today. But yeah, one last kick at

1:03

winter coming back after a little

1:06

bit of a teaser of spring. Folks,

1:08

we have Susie Miller joining us

1:10

here today. Susie, before you tell us

1:12

about yourself, Chyman, how's your weather

1:14

over there across the pond? Well, amazingly,

1:16

we're having absolutely beautiful weather in the

1:18

UK at the moment. So probably

1:20

for about the last two weeks, we've

1:22

had, you know, absolutely beautiful sunshine.

1:24

So everyone's hoping this isn't going to

1:26

be our summer. And we will

1:29

actually, when this goes away, that actually

1:31

we will have some summer. Sometimes it

1:33

comes early and then just stays away

1:35

for the whole of the rest of

1:37

the year. So, but yeah, it's absolutely

1:39

gorgeous at the moment. Yeah. And here

1:41

in Canada, we always have a paranoia that

1:43

if something's nice, it's just too nice and

1:46

we're going to pay for it later. So

1:48

even if summer is nice, then the winter

1:50

is really going to be rotten. Like we

1:52

just, you have this constant sort of doubt

1:54

about the, I don't

1:56

know, we don't deserve the good weather yet

1:58

or something like that. Okay, so we've

2:00

gotten past the weather. Susie, you've

2:03

been with us on previous idiotic episodes,

2:05

but there are probably folks joining

2:07

us today who haven't met you

2:09

before, so tell us a bit

2:11

about yourself. Okay, so as you

2:14

very rightly introduced me, my

2:16

name is Susie Miller, I'm

2:18

an e-learning accessibility, probably I

2:20

call myself an expert at

2:22

this point, I've written a

2:24

book called Designing Accessible Learning

2:27

Content, I'm also, my background

2:29

is learning in development, so

2:31

I have an instructional design

2:33

background, I've probably been doing

2:35

that for my whole career

2:37

really so many years, and

2:39

I also now run... my

2:41

own kind of digital accessibility

2:44

agency which is called Ella

2:46

Hub and that really specializes

2:48

in e learning accessibility and

2:51

helping organizations to make their

2:53

learning content as accessible and

2:55

inclusive as possible. And I

2:58

was very very honoured recently

3:00

to have won the Learning Professional

3:02

Institute Learning Profession of the

3:04

Year, the LPI LP Learning

3:06

Profession of the Year Award.

3:09

So that was a great

3:11

for me. for accessibility. Congrats

3:13

on that for sure. That's pretty cool.

3:15

Yeah. One of the things that I

3:18

always find fascinating is how

3:20

people end up you know

3:22

getting involved in accessibility. Folks

3:24

have usually there's something you

3:26

know beyond just being aware

3:28

of it knowing you know that

3:31

it's important etc. Let's maybe start

3:33

just briefly there like what brought

3:35

you into the world of accessibility

3:38

what's made it such a focus

3:40

for you. So I think it's what I

3:42

tend to call in the work that

3:45

I've been doing since I started Ella

3:47

Hub. The more people I speak to

3:49

about accessibility, I completely agree with you,

3:51

there usually is what, you know, a

3:54

couple of things or a thing that

3:56

really gets people involved with accessibility. So

3:58

I tend to call now the accessibility.

4:00

accessibility spark and I think for me

4:03

my accessibility spark I kind of talk

4:05

about this in the book that I

4:07

wrote in designing accessible learning content was

4:10

my experience when I was a teacher

4:12

very early on in my career a

4:14

classroom teacher and I had a student

4:16

who was blind in my classroom and

4:19

I had absolutely no idea of how

4:21

I could make my you know what

4:23

I was trying to teach her her

4:26

inclusive so I think that was a

4:28

a real pivotal moment for me in

4:30

my in my career and

4:32

actually finding out how how

4:34

I could include her in

4:36

my in my in my

4:38

teaching was really kind of

4:40

instrumental in making me realize

4:42

that the result of that

4:44

was so. such a transformation on my practice

4:46

and on the way that I talked,

4:49

I was so lucky that that happened

4:51

to me early in my career, but

4:53

it wasn't really until I've started becoming

4:55

an instructional designer and got more into

4:57

the digital side of things. that again

4:59

I had a kind of another experience

5:01

where I created some learning content and

5:03

got some feedback just general feedback from

5:05

the organization I worked and I was

5:07

really lucky to have someone who was

5:09

a screen reader user who said to

5:11

me I cannot access your learning content

5:13

and I had at the time again

5:15

I had absolutely no idea what a

5:18

screen reader was or you know that

5:20

people would be accessing my I'd never

5:22

even occurred to me that people would

5:25

be accessing my digital content with different

5:27

access needs and I was so privileged

5:29

to be able to talk to her

5:31

and see her use the assistive technology.

5:34

And I think that was for me

5:36

as an instructional designer. I just thought

5:38

I cannot continue to call myself an

5:40

instructional designer and to be passionate about

5:43

what I do unless I find out

5:45

how other people are accessing my learning

5:47

content and the type of technology they

5:50

might be using. because I don't want

5:52

to intentionally exclude anyone. So it was

5:54

a very steep learning curve that I

5:57

had so much to learn, but it

5:59

was that kind of conviction that

6:01

to do my job properly, something

6:03

that I was very passionate about,

6:06

I couldn't exclude, you know, anybody.

6:08

I really needed to find out

6:10

more about it and find out

6:12

how to make it accessible for

6:15

everyone. Yeah, that's something that's accessible

6:17

for everyone and I think a

6:20

lot of us go through life

6:22

in general. you know not

6:24

experiencing everything of course outside

6:26

our own experience until something

6:28

like that happens and you

6:31

know I've heard in the

6:33

past before and I'll be

6:35

the first admit that I've thought

6:37

that is that oh well you know

6:39

I'm teaching creating content for

6:41

folks that they couldn't do

6:44

this job if they had

6:46

a disability and as you

6:48

learn There's all sorts of

6:50

different types of varying levels

6:53

of ability and of course

6:55

all sorts of different types

6:57

of technology and assisted devices

6:59

to help people in their

7:02

lives with those different abilities

7:04

there that For sure, of

7:06

course. Contrary to perhaps a

7:08

belief that yeah, there's people

7:11

that can do that position,

7:13

that job, the thing that

7:15

you're aiming at, but still

7:17

have the need. for creating

7:19

training that is fully inclusive. Of

7:22

course, we often think of screen

7:24

readers, but you know, as you

7:26

learn more there, it's more than

7:28

just that, you know, that is

7:30

one of the target areas and

7:32

perhaps one of the ones areas

7:34

that's a little more challenging at

7:37

first to go ahead and address. So

7:39

I think the coming back to what

7:41

you were saying about that kind of.

7:43

I suppose it's that the misconceptions

7:45

and the assumptions that people make

7:48

and I think again in my

7:50

career especially with the clients that

7:52

I work with Ella hub and

7:54

also the the organizations that I've

7:56

worked with myself you you for a

7:58

long time I haven't I called it

8:01

misconceptions and assumptions about people, but

8:03

really at the heart of it,

8:05

it's that sometimes when we talk

8:07

about it is important really to

8:09

address the fact that we can

8:11

call it ableism, it is sometimes

8:14

the assumptions that we make just

8:16

basically are kind of thinking, well,

8:18

but you know, is it... it

8:20

is really important that everybody has equal

8:22

access. You know, the assumptions that we

8:24

make can so often be based on

8:26

our own biases and our own experiences.

8:28

So really, some of the, you know,

8:30

the key things for me that I've

8:32

seen, it's been such, as I say,

8:34

I use it a lot the word,

8:36

but it has been such a privilege

8:38

to see people that do have access

8:40

needs and to see just how much

8:42

that they can achieve. and then it

8:44

comes back as Paul you were saying

8:46

to that that idea of you know

8:48

we don't that nobody with a disability

8:50

would be able to do that job

8:52

or you know or we don't need

8:55

to worry about you know people with

8:57

that kind of disability because they and

8:59

then it's it's for me the experience

9:02

that I've had myself of being diagnosed

9:04

as dyslexic so the whole put the

9:06

whole kind of transformation of understanding finally

9:08

you know why my brain works in

9:11

the way it does and you know

9:13

and how much that actually has held

9:15

me back you know for many years

9:18

in education and in in the workplace

9:20

for me I suppose that's

9:22

a very personal experience which

9:24

really brings home why it's so

9:26

important to have this accessibility as

9:28

the default mindset because there is

9:30

no way that we know we

9:32

can know what type of access

9:34

needs people will have and that's

9:36

not even talking about people that

9:39

have you know temporary or situational

9:41

access needs as well so I

9:43

think it's that for me I think the

9:45

more I the more work I've done the more

9:47

kind of committed I am to challenging

9:49

assumptions and if that be ableism where

9:52

people kind of think well actually someone

9:54

with with a disability or an access

9:56

need is less than then that's something

9:58

that I feel much more confident to

10:01

do now, you know, at the beginning

10:03

I was kind of, you know, maybe

10:05

shying away from that, but I think

10:08

it's so important to actually challenge that,

10:10

that, you know, the only way that

10:12

we can start challenging it is by

10:15

really recognizing that that exists and

10:17

we will have our own, you know,

10:19

unconscious biases as well, that, you know,

10:21

that really, you know, I have to

10:23

challenge on a daily basis still, however

10:25

long you're working in the, you know,

10:27

in the field. Yeah, this is

10:29

an area where your learning is never

10:31

completed either. There's always,

10:34

you know, you start out with some

10:36

of the more obvious things, such

10:38

as being able to accommodate screen

10:40

readers successfully or, you know, the,

10:42

I don't know, the big, the

10:44

headline, you know, kind of things

10:46

that we need to think about,

10:48

but you're always finding that there

10:50

are more things that you can

10:52

do, do things that you can

10:54

do, you know, differently. It's not

10:56

like a... The journey is never

10:59

finished really on this front. Yeah.

11:01

And I think that's where the

11:03

the web content accessibility guidelines

11:05

which are the kind of

11:07

the international standard for accessibility

11:09

sometimes. you know, they don't,

11:11

they are sometimes quite difficult

11:13

to understand and interpret. And

11:15

when you talk about, you

11:17

know, never being done, obviously

11:19

you've got technology which is

11:21

changing all of the time

11:23

as well, so things do

11:25

rapidly change. But I think

11:27

from the point of view

11:30

of the, of the web

11:32

content accessibility guidelines,

11:34

the fact that I, when having spent,

11:36

I don't know how many years.

11:38

you know, researching them and writing

11:40

a book, writing a second edition

11:42

of a book recently is that

11:44

however much time I spend there

11:46

are still things about them that

11:49

I read, you know, I look

11:51

back on something or I'll suddenly

11:53

discover and and something that's exempt

11:55

or you know, there's or I

11:57

have I realize I've kind of

11:59

misinterpreted something. So from the point of

12:01

view of the standards, I think they

12:03

kind of lend themselves to kind of

12:06

constantly discovering new things, I could say,

12:08

about them. But as I say, the

12:10

technology is changing as well, I think

12:12

is a real important factor in kind

12:15

of that idea of just sometimes it

12:17

can feel difficult to keep on top

12:19

of every kind of aspect of accessibility.

12:21

But I think for all of their

12:24

faults, the web content accessibility guidelines are

12:26

a great place to start. You know,

12:28

they, they, they do cover a lot

12:30

of technology, they cover a lot of

12:32

different access needs as well. So for

12:34

me that's a really key thing I

12:37

think for people who are wanting to

12:39

get on on board with accessibility. I

12:41

kind of think often I maybe when

12:43

I work with clients I see this

12:45

sort of what I call the top

12:47

tips and you know. effect. So there

12:49

are there is a lot of information

12:51

out there on accessibility now, which is

12:53

brilliant. I mean, some of it's great,

12:55

some of it's maybe not so good,

12:57

but I think that the kind of

12:59

the idea with the top tips kind

13:01

of concept is that it sometimes it

13:03

gives the impression that this is all

13:06

you need to do, you know, these

13:08

these top 10 tips are done it

13:10

and then you know you're legally compliant

13:12

whereas if you if you kind of

13:14

know a bit more about accessibility you

13:16

know actually you know the Wokag standards

13:19

if you're meeting the the general legal

13:21

standard is that's the Wokag A and

13:23

double A standards that's 55 standards that

13:25

you need to be aware of and

13:27

for the for the version two. the

13:30

complete set is 86 standards. So, you

13:32

know, there is, there is a huge

13:34

range in there that you need to

13:36

be able to understand. And the top

13:39

tips are great. I'm not, not kind

13:41

of criticizing that at all. It's just,

13:43

sometimes I think we come away thinking,

13:45

well, that's it. I've done it now

13:47

because I've followed those tips that I've

13:50

found. So it's just a little bit

13:52

more complicated than that, which is part

13:54

of the reason that I wanted to

13:56

put this benchmark benchmark together was to

13:59

kind of, to make something. accessible, it

14:01

was a little bit more,

14:03

especially if it's legally compliant,

14:05

it is more detailed than

14:07

just looking at some kind

14:10

of top tips. I once

14:12

heard a definition of expertise

14:14

as an expert is someone

14:17

who knows that they don't

14:19

know yet. So in that

14:21

regard, I think once you

14:23

once you start down this

14:26

path of accessibility and recognize

14:28

there is so much I

14:30

think maybe and from that

14:33

perspective you achieve expert status

14:35

mostly by humility maybe.

14:37

Yeah, all you were going to say something. Yeah,

14:39

I was thinking, yeah, as you said,

14:41

it is a journey and I almost

14:44

think those top 10 tips is that's

14:46

to get you started on the journey

14:48

as you move down. And speaking to

14:50

the standards, there was a recent one

14:52

that I worked with a client there

14:54

and standards about radio buttons and

14:56

some other things. And until you

14:58

start to read in and learning

15:00

a lot of radio buttons or

15:02

things are used for. basically multiple

15:04

choice type questions or other things

15:07

there but there's a specific standard

15:09

there that as you read in

15:11

and then read the examples and

15:13

get to the more details you

15:15

realize that that particular standard is

15:17

really to handle primarily things like

15:19

putting in your credit card and

15:21

all the other information and having

15:23

that informative around what you're doing where

15:26

if you just read the first part

15:28

you would think oh that applies to

15:30

this other section which it completely does

15:32

not. And then of course you get

15:34

into the case, you mentioned the technology

15:36

is always changing and hey, how come

15:38

when I use JAWs, I get a

15:40

different experience when I use NVDA or

15:43

for the matter of if you're new

15:45

to this, just like if you were,

15:47

I don't know if anybody could remember

15:49

when, but they were new to word,

15:51

you didn't understand all the things on

15:53

it and you're not an expert in

15:55

using that tool. I'm wondering if you

15:57

could share a little bit about some.

16:00

tips for people getting started on that

16:02

journey. I mean, it sounds like your

16:04

benchmark might be a good idea too,

16:06

because it's hard to go ahead and

16:09

measure if I've made improvement unless I

16:11

actually measure to see where I'm at. Yeah, yeah.

16:13

I think that's the that's the key thing for

16:15

me is is that there's so much

16:18

there are so many as I

16:20

say misconceptions, not only around, you

16:22

know, accessibility and disability, but also

16:24

around the kind of the operational

16:26

side of making content accessible and I

16:29

think that's again why I think that

16:31

I had this idea of wanting to

16:33

have a benchmark because it is that

16:35

there isn't an you know I've so

16:38

many often so often in the talks

16:40

have said there is no data I'm

16:42

not aware of any data that is

16:44

telling us how accessible the the industry

16:46

is at the moment so the idea

16:49

with the benchmark is allowing us as

16:51

an industry to see where we're at.

16:53

and then also trying to empower people

16:55

as well to feel more confident about

16:58

making their own learning content accessible. So

17:00

the idea of the industry is once

17:02

we benchmark once we know where we're

17:05

at, that's when we can start making

17:07

steps on getting better. At the moment,

17:09

we just don't really know, you know,

17:11

we think we're not in a great

17:14

place. It's really interesting, the data that

17:16

we've got back from the benchmarking so

17:18

far is actually more positive than I

17:20

would have expected it to be. Now

17:23

that may be because a lot of

17:25

the people who are engaging with it

17:27

are people who are already on

17:29

board with accessibility because obviously they're

17:31

finding out about it through me.

17:33

not the case if we get

17:35

more data in and we see

17:37

that actually, you know, this could

17:39

be something really positive that we

17:41

can say actually in these areas

17:43

as an industry we are doing

17:45

really well. But I think the

17:47

starting with, so the benchmark deliberately

17:49

does, you know, it's quite detailed,

17:51

it has 60 questions and they

17:53

are all based on the web

17:55

content accessibility guidelines or strategic

17:58

implementation in your... So

18:00

that we get a really good

18:02

broad picture of what's happening. But

18:04

I think as you say Paul,

18:06

unless you, if you don't know

18:08

where you're starting with, you can't

18:10

see the improvement that you're making

18:12

really. And I think that's such

18:14

an important thing, not to, because

18:16

when we talk about accessibility, it

18:18

is, it can sometimes be quite

18:20

overwhelming and you think, oh, you

18:22

know. I mean at the beginning

18:24

for me, I so often felt

18:26

like I'm just going to have

18:28

to give up because this is

18:30

just too complicated. So it's trying

18:32

to give people a sense of,

18:34

okay, I may not know, you

18:36

know, I may not know exactly

18:38

where we're at, but actually if

18:41

I may not know exactly where

18:43

we're at, but actually if I

18:45

answer these questions, I can see,

18:47

oh, this is the area that

18:49

these are the areas where I'm

18:51

doing really sure. what's going on

18:53

or where to start really. 60

18:55

questions does sound somewhat daunting. And

18:57

so just to help people. Perfect.

18:59

So that was one first thing

19:01

was was, so how long? You

19:03

know, just to give people a

19:05

sense, if they're going to click

19:07

the link that we shared in

19:09

the session info. Our data shows

19:11

it does take people about 10

19:13

to 15. Okay, right on. So

19:15

it's not a, it's not a,

19:17

it's not a super big time.

19:19

No. And I mean, do folks

19:21

have to do anything, any pre-thinking

19:23

or anything or anything? basically. Go

19:25

through the email. I mean, all

19:28

of the, as I say, all

19:30

of the questions are based on

19:32

the web content accessibility guidelines and

19:34

what it does is it. So

19:36

just to give you an example,

19:38

the question on the color contrast.

19:40

So if we go back to

19:42

our top tips, kind of a

19:44

theme, the top tip might say

19:46

to you or you've got to

19:48

have good color contrast. Well, you

19:50

know, what does that actually mean?

19:52

So the question would be, okay,

19:54

for this Wukag standard, you need

19:56

to make sure that you're meeting

19:58

4. contrast ratio you need to

20:00

know about the font size that

20:02

you're using and whether it's bold

20:04

or up that's how how in-depth

20:06

meeting colour contrast requirements to meet

20:08

those standards. I'm not saying that

20:10

everybody has to meet those standards,

20:12

but if you want to have

20:14

a benchmark of what you're doing,

20:17

that's why it's so important. So

20:19

the questions will all outline. kind

20:21

of what the web content accessibility

20:23

guidelines are asking and ask you

20:25

if you're applying that to your

20:27

learning. So sometimes, you know, you

20:29

might need a maybe a little

20:31

bit longer just to digest the

20:33

question and really understand what it's

20:35

asking you, but they're all, you

20:37

know, they are all based on

20:39

what we should be doing if

20:41

we're meeting those standards and making

20:43

our content accessible, you know, for

20:45

everybody and to legal requirements as

20:47

well. Very cool. And with that

20:49

standard, I think of the what's

20:51

in it for me. So I'm

20:53

thinking if they go through that

20:55

questionnaire, one, it's going to help

20:57

them target and reveal and understand,

20:59

but thinking of that journey as

21:01

they're improving it, how can they

21:04

use that questionnaire kind of ongoing

21:06

to help their own processes and

21:08

their own training content? Okay, so

21:10

yeah, so we've kind of built

21:12

in so that the fact that

21:14

they have to, you know, we're

21:16

asking them to spend this time

21:18

doing it means that they will

21:20

get a report at the end

21:22

of it, and the report comes

21:24

with, you know, the category feedback,

21:26

the overall score that they've got,

21:28

a score for each of the

21:30

categories of the Ella framework, that's

21:32

how I've broken down those great

21:34

long list of web content accessibility

21:36

guidelines, and then it also comes

21:38

with recommendations of, you know, if

21:40

you're not. you've got some resources

21:42

and some recommendations for how that

21:44

they can improve. So it's a

21:46

good starting point for really, as

21:48

I say, benchmarking where you are

21:51

and looking at some of the

21:53

things that you can improve as

21:55

well. It's almost a path, if

21:57

you will, or a roadmap for

21:59

things that they could go ahead

22:01

and continue as they continue their

22:03

journey to make their content more

22:05

accessible. Definitely, and they can access

22:07

it, you know, as many times

22:09

that they want to. the idea

22:11

is it will be open for

22:13

quite a while so that people

22:15

can go back maybe after three

22:17

months, maybe after six months and

22:19

see where they're at. So that's

22:21

a, you know, a great, hopefully

22:23

incentive to kind of, you know,

22:25

improve. And, and hopefully they'll be

22:27

seeing some real benefits from doing

22:29

that as well. It's interesting. You

22:31

commented earlier about folks thinking. They

22:33

were maybe worse off than they

22:35

were. Yeah. And anecdotally, I've kind

22:37

of seen the same. And maybe

22:40

it's the nature of who goes

22:42

in instructional design that they want

22:44

a high level of quality out

22:46

of their stuff. But I've heard

22:48

from some of our customers that

22:50

as the organization as the organization,

22:52

as the organization, sometimes they found

22:54

that. their learning group was far

22:56

ahead of the rest of the

22:58

organization not everyone necessarily but of

23:00

a majority of the organization and

23:02

and even though when they started

23:04

out they said they thought they

23:06

were far behind they were actually

23:08

the opposite not that there wasn't

23:10

still things to do but yeah

23:12

so I've seen as well actually

23:14

quite often in the organizations that

23:16

I've worked with I tend to

23:18

to to focus although we do

23:20

you know what border or organization

23:22

but we tend to focus on

23:24

the learning content and learning teams

23:27

and very often it's the learning

23:29

teams that are the catalyst for

23:31

then spreading the accessibility spark across

23:33

the rest of the organization because

23:35

they can actually and I think

23:37

that is I completely agree with

23:39

you Paul that the fact that

23:41

that as as an industry you

23:43

know We are very passionate about

23:45

what we do. We genuinely want

23:47

to do, we want to create

23:49

learning content that really has an

23:51

impact and is really effective. And

23:53

accessibility is such an important part

23:55

of that. And I think I've

23:57

seen some absolutely wonderful examples of

23:59

people being able to articulate how

24:01

important and how effective and transformational.

24:03

accessibility has been on their learning

24:05

content and then to kind of

24:07

convey that to the rest of

24:09

the organization. So then for example

24:11

we've kind of maybe had follow-on

24:14

workshops with maybe a mark the

24:16

marketing team for example or you

24:18

know the branding team etc. So

24:20

it's that that that because I

24:22

think as you say that A

24:24

they're passionate about it and B

24:26

they really see the impact that

24:28

accessibility makes on the quality of

24:30

their practice of what they're doing

24:32

and I think That was for

24:34

me, one of the things that

24:36

I really was, you know, so

24:38

driven to kind of get an

24:40

award because, you know, award aside

24:42

because I wanted to show that

24:44

actually the key kind of like

24:46

that this hidden risk of not

24:48

making your learning content accessible is

24:50

that you are just missing out

24:52

on the most fantastic and amazing

24:54

and wonderful opportunity to really improve

24:56

the practice if you're a practitioner

24:58

if you're an organization to kind

25:00

of make your content more effective

25:03

so many of the audits that

25:05

we do at Ella Hub we

25:07

see the content before it's been

25:09

you know we've done an audit

25:11

and the and the after and

25:13

it's just transformational because it has

25:15

that. an impact on the way,

25:17

you know, as an instructional designer

25:19

myself, I've had this experience myself,

25:21

but you cannot design anything the

25:23

way that you used to. Paul

25:25

you were saying earlier about having

25:27

just your own perspective. You can't,

25:29

once you find out about accessibility,

25:31

you can't just design it in

25:33

the way that you always have

25:35

done. You have to be thinking,

25:37

it's really, it really puts your

25:39

learner at the centre of the

25:41

learning. It really makes it learner-centric,

25:43

you know, they're really at the

25:45

heart of everything that you do.

25:47

And every time you're designing something,

25:50

you're thinking about things you're using

25:52

innovation, you're kind of, it's just...

25:54

absolutely transformational and I think the

25:56

real key transformation for me is

25:58

seeing the experience. of all learners.

26:00

So we focus a lot obviously

26:02

on people with disabilities and access

26:04

needs, also important to focus on

26:06

people with situational and temporary access

26:08

needs, but it isn't just those

26:10

people, it's everybody, you know, that

26:12

those, it just pulls out the

26:14

kind of, you know, good instructional

26:16

design, you know, is your is

26:18

your is your language plain and

26:20

straightforward? Are your instructions clear? Is

26:22

your your navigation consistent? Those types

26:24

of things make it such a

26:26

better learner experience for everybody, not

26:28

just people with with disabilities and

26:30

access needs. I was just prior

26:32

to this, I had a call

26:34

with one of our user groups

26:36

and the client was mentioning that

26:39

because of the audience the the

26:41

the the verbiage basically was at

26:43

a very low functional you know

26:45

level but what crossed my mind

26:47

was well that just also means

26:49

that it's going to work for

26:51

everybody right you know it's focusing

26:53

on that and realizing that that's

26:55

not a it might be a

26:57

challenge but it's not a problem

26:59

but it does improve things for

27:01

everyone in that regard that plain

27:03

or simpler language helps everybody for

27:05

example. Yeah and it was interesting

27:07

for me the experience I had

27:09

of writing the book and then

27:11

changing that book into an online

27:13

self-access program. that was probably the

27:15

hardest thing for me because I

27:17

had the language there already but

27:19

I was used to be you

27:21

know writing for a book and

27:23

then trying to simplify that that

27:26

was probably what took me the

27:28

longest you know and I think

27:30

it was before we had AI

27:32

that was so helpful in doing

27:34

that oh it just took me

27:36

it was so complex to try

27:38

and make sure that I could

27:40

explain these ideas in a straightforward

27:42

and simple way it was it

27:44

was just so yeah it just

27:46

took me such a long time

27:48

it's as is much improved now

27:50

by having AI to give me

27:52

some pointers. At some point, somewhere

27:54

along the way, someone introduced me

27:56

to the fog index, which rates,

27:58

you know, the complexity, let's say,

28:00

of language, I'm probably not describing

28:02

that poorly. But what I did

28:04

was, having learned about this, and

28:06

this was about, I think this

28:08

was. maybe even public service writing

28:10

or so anyway, but I thought,

28:13

well, that's interesting. And so I

28:15

picked up a copy of one

28:17

of my all-time favorite novels, and

28:19

I just took some stuff, took

28:21

some hunks of it, and I

28:23

went, oh, this author, you know,

28:25

Booker Prize-winning author, has had movies

28:27

made out of his stories, etc.

28:29

He's writing at an eighth grade

28:31

level. Yeah. But it's this is

28:33

fantastic, amazing, immersive language that pulls

28:35

you in. But ran it through

28:37

the fog index and it was

28:39

it was an eighth grade, you

28:41

know, level on what? Fantastic, fantastic.

28:43

Yeah. And that's one of the,

28:45

the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the

28:47

AAA requirements is that that it

28:49

should be, I think a educational

28:51

age of a. Is it about,

28:53

is it nine to, I always

28:55

forget, is my dyslexia, not very

28:57

good with figures. Anyway, it's much

28:59

lower than you think it's ninth

29:02

grade, I think, that's why you

29:04

have the guide to refer to

29:06

it, you know, and come out

29:08

this task. Yeah, I can't be

29:10

leafing through it now, but yes,

29:12

it'll come back to me probably

29:14

later. But yes, anyway, it's much

29:16

lower than you think, and I

29:18

think for me as well. When

29:20

you're talking about online content, it's

29:22

that all of those skills that

29:24

we have, you know, the skim

29:26

reading, the scan reading is kind

29:28

of facilitated by, it is a

29:30

different experience I think when you're

29:32

reading content online. So obviously, you

29:34

know, that's so important for our

29:36

learning content that's included. So yeah,

29:38

no, great point. You, and this

29:40

has come up before you mentioned

29:42

AI, and in the cost, a

29:44

couple of conferences, of course, that's

29:46

90% of the talks are about

29:49

AI, but I frequently have heard.

29:51

Hey, how can AI help me

29:53

with my e learning content and

29:55

starting to see some of the

29:57

or the. accessibility tools start to

29:59

bring some of that in that

30:01

are already designed to help you

30:03

with your accessibility. But tell us

30:05

a little bit more about since

30:07

it sounds like you've had a

30:09

little bit of experience with using

30:11

AI and some of the ways

30:13

that you're seeing it's helped you

30:15

or that you're anticipating perhaps you

30:17

might see some help for you

30:19

and others in the future. So

30:21

I think that this is obviously

30:23

a very personal experience. So I

30:25

think my where it's really helped

30:27

me a lot is with my

30:29

dyslexia. So because it allows me

30:31

to... it's very helpful it's structuring

30:33

my ideas and my ideas come

30:36

out in a kind of a

30:38

jumble of you know stuff and

30:40

in the past it's taking me

30:42

a long time to kind of

30:44

really be able to sort of

30:46

work out or how how things

30:48

link I found I find that

30:50

really really helpful so if I'm

30:52

planning content you know whether that's

30:54

on a day to day being

30:56

a you know a business owner

30:58

all the type of things that

31:00

you have to do for your

31:02

social media media etc you know

31:04

those type of things or if

31:06

I'm writing an article really really

31:08

helped me to structure that. So

31:10

in a way I'm quite pleased

31:12

that we didn't have AI when

31:14

I was writing the book. I

31:16

mean that was blood sweat and

31:18

tears that went into you know

31:20

especially the first you know well

31:22

both editions really but it was

31:25

it was all you know I

31:27

got there in the end but

31:29

I think if I'd had AI

31:31

it would have been a lot

31:33

a lot easier. I think just

31:35

for me it's giving it's seeing

31:37

different options and you know asking

31:39

you know for three or four

31:41

different ways of structuring it or

31:43

something really helps me to kind

31:45

of then clarify what I'm trying

31:47

to say rather than getting it

31:49

obviously to do to do things

31:51

you know just to say or

31:53

you know write a book on

31:55

accessibility it's really helpful just to

31:57

have kind of a different viewpoint

31:59

and again. that as a kind

32:01

of a point or a good

32:03

starting point. But the really, the

32:05

really key one that I use

32:07

a lot actually is alternative text.

32:09

So the functionality now of being

32:12

able to give you, and obviously

32:14

we always say with AI it's a

32:16

great starting point. So it's for me,

32:19

especially for things like LinkedIn for example.

32:21

posts that I wouldn't in the past

32:23

have been able to post with with

32:25

imagery in them just because it would

32:28

have taken me so long to do

32:30

the alternative text. I now will use

32:32

a lot more imagery because I have

32:34

a good starting point with AI and

32:37

that that saves me a huge huge

32:39

amount of time in the accessible learning

32:41

content program. I actually employed someone to

32:43

do the alternative text for me and

32:45

if I was again starting from scratch

32:48

now, I would I would do that

32:50

myself because I have that kind of

32:52

basic. It's just a great, especially again,

32:54

coming back to my dyslexia, interpreting charts

32:56

and graphs and things like that are

32:58

something I find very very difficult. So

33:01

just having that starting point, obviously, then

33:03

that comes back to the sort of

33:05

limitations. So we were talking about. the

33:07

kind of checking accessibility tools. So we

33:09

have, you know, tools for a long

33:11

time that have been, you know, able

33:14

to to automatically check content, but we

33:16

know that they are about 30% accurate.

33:18

And I think at the moment, AI,

33:20

you know, this idea that we've got

33:23

an AI tool that will check everything

33:25

for you and make sure it's fully

33:27

accessible. At the moment, I don't think

33:29

that we're there. We still need human

33:32

human human interaction and coming back to

33:34

the alternative text. That is something an

33:36

example. because, you know, how can you

33:38

tell, unless you're, it's the context

33:41

of imagery in a piece of

33:43

learning content, you know, as the

33:45

instructional designer, you know, why you've

33:48

chosen that image, what's the kind

33:50

of, the message, the learning that

33:52

you've, the reason that you've chosen

33:55

that, that's something that context isn't

33:57

necessarily something that AI is sophisticated.

33:59

So that's really just one example.

34:01

I mean, there's a may, I

34:03

think AI can just lead to

34:05

the most brilliant innovation. So you

34:08

see with a lot of the

34:10

tools available and assistive technology, AI,

34:12

a really good one for me

34:14

is the Be My Eyes app,

34:16

where is an app that you

34:18

have where you, if you are,

34:20

blind or you've got low vision,

34:22

then you can call on someone

34:24

in the community who is cited

34:26

to assist you for example. You

34:28

could be for example in a

34:30

in a shop and you want

34:32

to see what color the two

34:34

shirts are for example you can

34:36

call someone up and they can

34:38

you know they can assist you

34:40

which I think is an incredible

34:42

you know it's an incredible app

34:44

anyway but they've now got an

34:46

AI version of it which means

34:48

that it's obviously a little bit

34:50

more slick. as in there, there's

34:52

always someone, you know, it's not,

34:54

you're not relying on humans, you

34:56

are, and that is, doesn't always

34:58

work, you know, it obviously has

35:00

its glitches, but it is, you

35:02

know, it can be really, really

35:04

helpful, you know, for example, reading

35:06

labels on packages, for example, things

35:08

like that. So you see it's

35:10

a huge, you know, a really

35:12

huge advantage for accessibility, but I

35:14

think just just not being over

35:16

reliant on it. Another one I

35:18

always talk about as well is

35:20

sign language interpretation. So the sophistication

35:22

of the technology now where you

35:25

can actually have avatars that really

35:27

do a good job of ASL,

35:29

American Sign Language or British Sign

35:31

Language, whereas in the past that

35:33

it was never quite sophisticated enough

35:35

to be able to, you know,

35:37

do facial expressions and the hand

35:39

gestures, but it's really much more

35:41

sophisticated now. So there's lots of

35:43

great things with AI, but as

35:45

always, you know, it's just using

35:47

it wisely really. Yeah, and

35:49

a couple follow-up questions. So first

35:51

off, I thought I heard you

35:53

say BMI for the app. And

35:55

of course, when I hear BMI,

35:57

body mass in. So I know

36:00

it wasn't that. But then you

36:02

also talked about using AI to

36:04

write all text. And I've dabbled

36:06

in it. I'm sure some folks

36:08

in our audience have too. But

36:10

how do you go and operate?

36:12

Do you upload the image and

36:14

tell it to write all text

36:16

or tell us a little bit

36:18

more about both that app and

36:20

how you might actually operationalize that?

36:23

Okay. So the app is called

36:25

actually and B My Eyes. So

36:27

three would be my eyes, sorry.

36:29

It's not about your BMI. And

36:31

the, the, I mean, there is

36:33

quite a, obviously, so much, I

36:35

tend to use and chat GBT

36:37

for, you know, the, there's a,

36:39

I can send you a link,

36:41

there, there is a, a tool

36:44

within chat GBT that will do

36:46

your alternative text, and you can.

36:48

why I really like it is

36:50

you can upload and you can

36:52

upload any image to it and

36:54

it will give you either alternative

36:56

text so maybe the shortened you

36:58

know sort of sentence or two

37:00

that you might put in the

37:02

old text field if you were

37:05

you know using any software but

37:07

you can also ask it to

37:09

give you full descriptive text which

37:11

you know it really is quite

37:13

sophisticated in the type of description

37:15

it will come back and give

37:17

you and you know sometimes I

37:19

will use a combination of both

37:21

so but it's a great great

37:23

starting point as I say to

37:25

kind of really you know save

37:28

you so much time it literally

37:30

saves me you know hours and

37:32

hours. And I just

37:34

posted, I just found the link, I

37:36

wasn't aware, I figured that of course

37:39

there would be something, but having not

37:41

tried it out myself. And that's something

37:43

too. We have post in our community

37:45

about how to write alt-text, because that's

37:48

just there. But as soon as you

37:50

start looking at a little more complex

37:52

image, you realize this isn't as simple

37:54

as I thought it was, just like

37:57

writing a good five- or five-sentence. paragraph

37:59

is not as simple as it always

38:01

seems to be there. So yeah, that's

38:03

fantastic. Come back to the context as

38:06

well. So you can, you know, shape

38:08

it by saying, you know, these, so

38:10

for example, if you were doing it,

38:12

you know, if it wasn't a piece

38:15

of learning, you had a diagram, you

38:17

could say, I want you to bring

38:19

in the description, I want you to

38:21

be bringing out these learning points from

38:24

this diagram. that type of thing can

38:26

be really really helpful and it can

38:28

as I say because obviously you can

38:30

you can prompt it to kind of

38:33

shape what you're what you're trying to

38:35

convey so yeah it can be can

38:37

be really helpful. I was thinking too

38:39

to what Chris had said about the

38:42

fog index and yeah I too that

38:44

can probably tell it to use the

38:46

fog index or any of the other

38:49

guidelines to say hey review this concept

38:51

in the content there I want you

38:53

to rewrite it in two ways make

38:55

sure all of it's using this. Yeah

38:58

I mean I've I've experimented with the

39:00

with with the fog index or with

39:02

the kind of readability checkers and. It's

39:04

not always, it's one of the things,

39:07

you know, you'll say I want it

39:09

at grade level five and then you

39:11

will check it and it's not always,

39:13

you know, that's one of the things,

39:16

and to be fair I did that

39:18

a lot, I would probably say about

39:20

a year ago, so now it might

39:22

be more sophisticated than it was then,

39:25

but it's always worth double checking and

39:27

yeah, yeah, things like, yeah. the kind

39:29

of complexities of using AI and not

39:31

just relying on what it says but

39:34

yeah no and for me the what

39:36

I find as well is that having

39:38

three different so I might say give

39:40

it give give this to me at

39:43

you know grade level four grade level

39:45

five grade level six and then there's

39:47

usually kind of snippets that I take

39:49

from maybe one the other and then

39:52

I feel comfortable and it really you

39:54

know it's a simplified way of trying

39:56

to explain what I'm trying to explain

39:58

but but still using my voice not

40:01

not using you know AI that doesn't

40:03

feel too AI just feels like a

40:05

you know something that you would would

40:07

say. One of the most of my

40:10

social media time is spent in in

40:12

in Mastodon these days which is a

40:14

very geeky place to be but there

40:17

is a very strong devotion in a

40:19

sense to to alt text on images

40:21

and people will refuse to boost something

40:23

in a lot of cases if if

40:26

it doesn't have alt text and they'll

40:28

make these you know the statements. So

40:30

it's a, and I don't post a

40:32

lot, but you know, want to share

40:35

a photo of something or whatever, but

40:37

the number of ways that you could

40:39

write and rewrite. So, you know, the

40:41

words in my post and in an

40:44

image. That's the quick part, it's the

40:46

alt text, you know, spending, oh, wait,

40:48

I am, I'm now 112 words in,

40:50

you know, it's just, it's remarkable how

40:53

when you look at something and you

40:55

think about, well, why is this important?

40:57

What am I, what do I want

40:59

someone to get out of, you know,

41:02

the experience of this image? It's, it's

41:04

a, it's a, it's a fascinating rabbit

41:06

hold to go down at times. Yeah,

41:08

but he can't write a full paragraph,

41:11

you know. It's not a thousand words.

41:13

Yeah, but that's what the picture is

41:15

worth, right? So. I'm talking about challenge

41:17

with some other images recently on a

41:20

blog post because there was so much

41:22

going on. I'm like, okay, I need

41:24

to get the whole gist of what

41:26

that's accomplishing and then use things like

41:29

a caption or include more description in

41:31

the text to refer to it, but.

41:34

So we've shared the link to

41:36

your your benchmarking you know assessment

41:38

tool and really hope that folks

41:41

pick up on that check it

41:43

out start putting that into action

41:45

as a way of taking their

41:47

own journeys forward not to put

41:49

you totally on the spot but

41:51

I mean for your own journey

41:53

forward yeah do you have things

41:56

in mind of what you want

41:58

to you know where are you

42:00

going next in terms of learning

42:02

more or doing more etc in

42:04

this space? Yeah I think it is

42:07

that that coming back to that

42:09

progress over perfection so always thinking

42:11

that you could could do better.

42:13

So I think one of the

42:15

things that I there's been a

42:17

really valuable lesson for me is

42:20

Having changed the book into an

42:22

online forum as well, so to

42:24

kind of give the practical side

42:27

of implementing accessibility and learning content,

42:29

that is, that comes with, we

42:31

have a forum on that. And

42:34

the amount of amazing questions and

42:36

thing, you know, issues that people

42:39

are coming up with on that

42:41

forum is something that completely keeps

42:43

me on my toes all the

42:46

time. Because whenever you think Okay

42:48

I kind of think I'm okay I'm

42:50

quite confident now that I've probably had

42:52

every possible like you were talking Paul

42:55

with your with your targets every possible

42:57

you know complexity I've come across you

42:59

know and then you know on the

43:01

forum we get so many really interesting

43:04

questions and what about if if it's

43:06

this situation or we have a piece

43:08

of learning where we have to do

43:10

this and it just makes me you

43:13

know all the time I'm just so

43:15

I'm not going to say, I'm going

43:17

to say privileged again, really privileged to

43:19

be able to have that, that learning

43:21

from, you know, as people are going

43:24

through the program and they're kind of,

43:26

they have their light bulb moments and

43:28

then it leads to kind of further

43:30

questions. So I think a key thing

43:33

for me is realising so we now

43:35

refresh that course every year and that's

43:37

not only because of all of the

43:39

things that I'm learning but also because

43:42

the technology is changing as well so

43:44

there there is it does never stay

43:46

still when it comes to accessibility

43:48

but again I think it as

43:50

I say sometimes it can feel

43:52

a little bit overwhelming but I

43:54

think it is at its heart

43:56

is you're making things better all

43:58

of the time. and that's the

44:00

sense of purpose that you get.

44:02

So one of the things that

44:05

I talk about sometimes is what

44:07

I call quiet accessibleizing, which comes

44:09

from, you know, in the lockdown

44:11

when we had quiet quitting. And

44:13

it kind of inspired me to

44:15

think, okay, quite accessibleizing. And I

44:17

think sometimes if you're in an

44:19

organization, I think. but there's still

44:21

sometimes a big divide between necessarily

44:23

people at grassroots level who really

44:25

understand why it's so important and

44:27

then maybe at leadership level where

44:29

when you know it's it's much

44:31

more of a strategic and it

44:33

might get you know put on

44:35

the backburn and like like it

44:37

often does it can be really

44:39

frustrating and it's certainly something that

44:41

I've experienced myself so I think

44:43

the the power of accessibility for

44:45

practitioners is just the fact that

44:47

even if people around you don't

44:49

agree with you you can still

44:51

do something absolutely phenomenally positive that

44:53

has an impact on your own

44:55

practice but also will impact people

44:57

around you know or you know

44:59

anyone who's doing your learning content

45:01

and for me having feedback from

45:04

people because that's the other thing

45:06

we tend to do in our

45:08

organ in our in our industry

45:10

or in our sector is we

45:12

think okay we're talking about people

45:14

who, you know, have disabilities, but

45:16

we don't have anyone with a

45:18

disability in our own sector. And

45:20

then you think, well, actually, I,

45:22

you know, I have an access

45:24

need. It's, it's, there's, um, there's

45:26

statistics that I, that I talk

45:28

about a lot, which is from

45:30

the Boston Consulting Group, and they,

45:32

they surveyed about 28,000 people across

45:34

16 countries. And they found out

45:36

that although most organisations think between

45:38

4 to 7% of their workforce

45:40

may have a disability or an

45:42

access need in this survey, they

45:44

found that actually 25% of people

45:46

identified as having a disability or

45:48

an access need that impacted a

45:50

major life activity, which kind of

45:52

echoes the... the disability legislation that

45:54

we have. So 25% of your

45:56

audience, you know, potentially not being

45:58

able to access your content for

46:00

me is something that that kind

46:03

of keeps me keeps me motivated

46:05

and to think actually this is

46:07

having a phenomenal impact on. people

46:09

are you know everywhere you know

46:11

anyone that's got access to my

46:13

learning and then the feedback that

46:15

we get again from the the

46:17

forum is people with access needs

46:19

are doing the learning and they're

46:21

saying yes this this is really

46:23

really helpful for me because or

46:25

you know sometimes very very happy

46:27

to say it's not always positive

46:29

you know sometimes we have to

46:31

go back and rethink so coming

46:33

back to our alternative text that

46:35

were, you know, that really made

46:37

us, you know, rethink everything that

46:39

we done upon our alternative text.

46:41

So it's a constant kind of

46:43

learning, just a learning process really.

46:45

And for me, that, you know,

46:47

we always say we love learning

46:49

and, you know, I think most

46:51

of us in this industry are

46:53

lifelong learners. So, you know, that

46:55

for me is the is the

46:57

fantastic thing is to be able

46:59

to carry on improving something. You

47:02

saw, you know, you did the

47:04

best you could at the time

47:06

and then you learn more and

47:08

you can do better. And that's

47:10

exactly the same with writing the

47:12

second edition of the book. I

47:14

was really really, you know, really

47:16

so happy when the Wukag standards

47:18

changed because it meant I could

47:20

then write the second edition and

47:22

I could go in and improve

47:24

everything. everything that I wanted to

47:26

on the first edition and you

47:28

know I'm sure yeah I'm not

47:30

sure if a third edition will

47:32

actually come out when we have

47:34

Wukak three maybe I'll be retired

47:36

by then. Well someone else will

47:38

maybe pick up the torch. Maybe

47:40

yes I that would be good

47:42

actually. Susan, you've used the word

47:44

privilege a few times and you

47:46

even felt a little bit embarrassed,

47:48

I think, by using it. But

47:50

I will say, as always, it's

47:52

been an absolute privilege to have

47:54

you join us here today and

47:56

talk about this very very

47:58

and important important area here

48:01

on instructional designers

48:03

in offices drinking

48:05

coffee. Hey, folks watching listening

48:07

along in different places, don't forget, instructional

48:09

designers in forget coffee is brought to

48:11

you by Domino. coffee is Check us

48:13

out if check us out in the space.

48:15

We do a lot of really good

48:17

things in our tool for good things in

48:20

particular too, so always happy to

48:22

catch up with folks and happy to catch up

48:24

with more about those opportunities. more about those

48:26

going to take us over to the

48:28

slide deck play us play us with

48:30

the music and we can dance on

48:32

out of here. of here. you