0:01

In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams

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is an iHeart Women's Sports production in

0:05

partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

0:13

Hey, y'all, welcome to In Case You Missed

0:15

It with Christina Williams. And I know it's

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been a little bit of time, but I'm so happy

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to be back and on this special

0:22

edition of In Case You Missed It. This is

0:24

going to be a very, very fun conversation

0:27

with my girls, Cheryl Swoops

0:29

and Tarika Foster Brasby, hosts

0:32

of Levels to this podcast on Iheartwomen's

0:35

Sports Network. Yeah, we had a lot of

0:37

fun with this episode. We recorded it

0:39

live from NBA All Star in San

0:41

Francisco at Club thirty in partnership

0:43

with Stephen Curry's Unanimous Media

0:45

Company, and it was a lot of fun to bring

0:48

women's sports to NBA All Star. The

0:50

conversation is on the topic of

0:52

knowing who you are, and it was

0:54

really inspired by a

0:56

dinner that Cheryl trikan I had

0:59

the previous night before we recorded

1:01

the conversation. Not going to get into that because you

1:03

have to listen to the episode, but I think that this

1:05

is an important conversation, especially

1:08

as women in a male dominated space

1:10

as black women in the sports

1:12

industry. I think that you know this conversation

1:15

is something that needed to be had, and

1:18

I know this isn't like the typical In

1:20

Case You Missed the episodes with the news

1:22

and headlines, but I think that you will

1:24

truly truly enjoy this

1:27

discussion. So without further

1:29

ado, here's this episode

1:31

of In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams,

1:34

and it's crossing over with The Levels to

1:36

This podcast featuring Chryl

1:38

Swoops and Tarika Foster Brasby.

1:40

Good morning or good afternoon. I don't know

1:43

what time it is. I'm still on East

1:45

Coast time, so out of my head it's afternoon,

1:47

but it could very well be morning.

1:48

But we're here. Give a round of a boss

1:50

for yourself. Yeah, thank you for being here. Thank

1:53

you for being here.

1:54

I am Tureka Foster Brasby,

1:57

host of the Levels to this podcast, and

1:59

I am incited to have.

2:03

Because I was to say it and I

2:06

said, oh no, she wants to introduce herself. I'm

2:10

Christina Williams.

2:11

I'm a host of In Case You miss It with

2:13

Christina Williams.

2:15

Yes, yes, so I'm

2:17

not even gonna let you look at me, because I'm

2:19

getting the eyes and I am Cheryl

2:21

Swoops. I co host levels to this with

2:24

the one and only Tik across the Bras.

2:26

The Cheryl Swoops time

2:31

champion, the three time Olympian.

2:33

Don't play on her name?

2:34

Did you know who she is? Do you know?

2:38

Stop it stopping.

2:39

We're very excited to be here today at

2:42

NBA All Star.

2:43

We are looking for.

2:45

A good day of fun and a good day of

2:47

excitement for the fans. But you know

2:49

what, I'll be the first to tell you guys that sometimes

2:53

it is incredibly difficult

2:55

to be in these spaces because

2:59

you have moments where people

3:01

recognize you. They recognize you from

3:03

the podcast, they recognize you from the

3:06

different things that you do.

3:07

I know you guys have people who recognize you all the time.

3:09

And there are moments where you're like, you know what, I just

3:12

kind of want to chill a little bit, right, Like I want

3:14

to have a drink. I want to kick back, put my feet

3:16

up, dance a little bit, shake a little something

3:18

something. And then there are times where it's like you

3:20

feel like maybe you can't do that

3:22

because you don't want people who see

3:25

you or envision you in a certain way

3:28

to then look at you differently or have things

3:30

to say because they only

3:32

see you a certain way and they don't give you an opportunity

3:35

to kind of be yourself and enjoy yourself. And

3:37

so today we're kind of gonna talk a little bit about

3:39

what it means to balance.

3:42

Being who you are and

3:45

what you do and.

3:46

How those two things are completely

3:49

separate. And Christina, I'm gonna

3:51

start with you because we

3:53

had a moment recently where

3:56

we were like, Hey, we're gonna go out, We're gonna

3:58

have fun, but then was just a little bit

4:00

of reservation. And I think one

4:03

thing, one thing

4:05

that reminds me of that is

4:07

even like the women who we cover in the WNBA,

4:10

and how there are moments where

4:13

we see them on the court, we see what they

4:15

do, we see how they ball, and then

4:17

we have to remind ourselves, and maybe

4:19

not us, but like people have to remind

4:22

themselves, like what you are and

4:24

what you do on the court is not necessarily

4:27

what you are and who you are off

4:29

the court, in your personal life and your personal

4:31

endeavors. And so I'll start with

4:33

you and go around a shurel about

4:36

what it means to try to find a balance.

4:40

Okay, we gotta go there. We

4:43

are absolutely going there. I

4:45

love that.

4:47

Yeah, last night was a really

4:49

real experience for me because I feel

4:51

like I'm still very new in this space, although

4:53

I've been in it for about seven eight years,

4:56

and so a lot of me

4:58

wants to protect who I am, that

5:01

public facing image versus

5:04

my private life, and so I did. I did

5:06

have reservations about going out last night and people

5:08

seeing me outside

5:10

of work, the work environment, and I guess

5:13

it's something you're laughing, Shuryl,

5:15

But it's real.

5:18

It's real.

5:18

But no, it's just something that I'm

5:21

learning to balance. I'm

5:23

not there yet. I'm not gonna lie. I'm

5:26

not there yet. You're just still learning learning

5:28

how to navigate it, I guess.

5:30

And Errol, for you having

5:33

literally so much of your life public

5:35

right with being a superstar

5:38

athlete, with literally somebody can pick up

5:40

Google and feel like they can find everything

5:42

about you.

5:43

You know, how do you, in your own.

5:45

Way trying to find a balance of

5:48

you being Churl the basketball player,

5:50

the Hall of Famer, and then you just being

5:53

Churro from Texas, from

5:55

West Texas. I, first

5:58

of all, I think it's hard because

6:00

I think if you ask even people

6:02

in the room,

6:05

is.

6:06

It fair to say

6:08

that what you do

6:11

at work, in your workplace, on the court or

6:13

whatever, you have to be that

6:15

same person outside of

6:18

work. Personally,

6:22

I don't think it's fair because

6:24

what I do outside of my job

6:27

should be

6:30

able. I should be able to be me. And

6:33

I think one of the biggest issues

6:35

with that though, when people are trying to portray

6:38

you as being like, oh

6:40

my gosh, he or she they're like on all

6:42

the time and they're great, and they're this and that, Like,

6:45

I think you give a false sense to little

6:48

kids growing up of everything's

6:51

perfect, everything's great, because it's

6:53

not. Do we always make the right

6:55

choices?

6:56

No?

6:56

Do we always make the right decision?

6:58

No, So I think it's.

7:00

Unfair to have those expectations.

7:03

But for myself personally, like

7:07

it or not fair or unfair, I always

7:10

know that there's somebody somewhere watching

7:12

me just to see am

7:15

I going to f up? So they can be able to

7:17

go and say, you see, she did mess up. And I'll be

7:19

the first to say, yeah, I do make mistakes, But

7:21

I try to be very cognizant

7:24

of my surroundings

7:26

where I'm at what I'm doing, because

7:29

I know people are always going to judge,

7:31

even though that's not our place to do that. But

7:34

I always want to have that not

7:36

a perfect image, but I always want to be

7:38

that person where when especially little

7:41

girls, when they look at me, they can say, you know what, like,

7:44

I'm real. I'm just going to be a real person

7:46

regardless of where I'm at, what I'm doing,

7:48

and I want to be able to show

7:50

that to them and to let them know

7:53

that it is okay to not always

7:55

be right.

7:55

It's okay to not always be on.

7:58

I think we put way too much pressure on our cells

8:00

at times to do that.

8:01

Can I shake the table a little bit? Shake it.

8:04

I'm about to shake the table, the hair up in

8:06

the shaped table a little bit, shake, shake, shake.

8:08

Do you think do you think men have that expectation?

8:10

Absolutely not like like

8:12

y'all have no idea how they don't

8:14

you have it at I don't think so. Like you

8:16

can lose all your hair and

8:19

you will still be considered

8:22

that guy, you know what I mean? You can

8:24

gain weight, yes, and no one's

8:26

gonna say I'm not gonna date that, yeah, because

8:28

he's gained We like y'all are

8:30

just y'all, if we put on two pounds

8:33

hundred percent officially become the

8:35

worst people in the world. And we're overweight

8:38

and we're obese. If we lose a

8:40

single strand of hair, we all of a sudden

8:42

have now missed the societal standards

8:44

of what beauty looks like. And so if

8:46

we go out and have too

8:49

much to drink and get caught

8:51

on social media, then it's, oh,

8:53

my god, woman, thou aren't loosed like what

8:55

in the world, right, And so it's it's

8:57

so interesting, how And

9:00

this isn't to play the gender card, but it is to

9:02

just demonstrate just how much

9:04

more difficult it is at times

9:06

to balance your personality

9:10

and your profession. And I

9:12

think that's relatable in any case,

9:14

Like even when we have to sometimes

9:17

code switch, right, like we have

9:19

to sometimes you know, I can hit

9:21

you see what I'm saying, and I

9:23

have past because you know, I

9:26

can absolutely have

9:28

a conversation with my friends, and there are

9:30

certain terms and things that I can

9:32

say with my friends that I can't

9:35

necessarily say at work, and not because

9:37

those things are bad, but just because the perception

9:39

of it is just so different, right, And

9:42

I just I think it's important

9:45

to put an emphasis on just

9:47

how difficult that can be sometimes.

9:49

But you know, for both of you and whoever wants

9:51

to answer can answer. Are

9:53

there moments where you're just like, for

9:56

lack of better terms, f it like I don't care

9:59

you know what someone's gonna say, or like you

10:01

knows it. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this, I'm

10:03

gonna put on this outfit, I'm gonna.

10:05

Wear this week. I'm gonna save.

10:06

This line because it's just it is who

10:08

it is. And if someone else doesn't have the ability

10:10

to compartmentalize me personally

10:12

versus me professionally, like that's with them.

10:15

Yeah.

10:16

But I have found though that.

10:19

The older I get, the

10:22

more I get to a point of the I

10:24

really don't care that idea because

10:27

but you know why, because

10:30

I sleep very well at night, and and

10:32

what I mean by that is I'm

10:34

I'm genuinely a really good person.

10:37

I treat people well, just.

10:38

Don't come at me sideways.

10:41

And so because of that, I yeah,

10:44

I just feel like we as a

10:47

society, we

10:49

just worry about other people's business

10:52

too much at times, and

10:54

we're not we're not allowed

10:56

to have our own. I

10:59

can't have my my own thoughts and opinions,

11:02

Like you feel like, not you personally,

11:05

but you feel like you should

11:08

be able to tell me what my own opinion

11:10

should be about something, right, And

11:13

so instead of going back and forth

11:15

with people about whatever it is, I

11:17

just get to a point to where I'm like, you know what,

11:20

whatever, you got it?

11:21

Yeah, I just chime in on that of course.

11:23

So I mean, obviously we're public facing

11:26

figures right in the media space and

11:28

the sports space as.

11:29

A Hall of Famer.

11:31

How much do you think social media and parasocial

11:33

relationships factor into those

11:35

expectations?

11:36

Oh?

11:37

My god, so much?

11:40

Like there are so funny story My husband

11:42

doesn't like so like he is

11:44

cool with social media, but he don't really like social.

11:47

Media at all.

11:48

Right, Like if you look on his on his social

11:50

pages, it's nothing but like memes, jokes

11:52

and the Philadelphia Eagles, Like that's it.

11:54

That's why you're gonna see.

11:55

I almost didn't even know it was him because he changed his

11:57

profile picture to Jalen Hurts, and I was like,

11:59

who is this?

12:01

Who is this person?

12:02

But he doesn't like social Me

12:04

on the other hand, part of it is because of my job

12:07

that I have to continually be on social media

12:09

and have to continually post. But also because

12:11

I think social is what you make it, right, It's

12:14

a negative place if you make it and

12:16

you allow it to be a negative place. I don't

12:18

allow it to be a negative space for me. But

12:20

with that being said, because I post about,

12:22

you know, family, husband things like that.

12:24

When I'm out and I'm with my husband, people

12:27

think they know him. So they're

12:29

always like, oh my god, I know you know you're

12:31

you're you're a tourists and you and you like the eagles

12:34

and how do you blah blah blah blah, and they just like kind

12:36

of start conversations and granted

12:39

he's not like a rude person, so he

12:41

will engage in conversation, but when we're done,

12:43

he's like.

12:44

Who the hell is that? How

12:47

do they know me?

12:48

You know?

12:48

And so I think those parasocial relationships

12:50

really do speak a lot to how

12:53

we interact and how people interact

12:55

and have expectations of us because

12:57

they think they know who we

12:59

are and what we're about based on

13:01

what we share and what we post on social

13:04

media.

13:04

And I think all of us can.

13:05

Say that we're all layered, right,

13:08

like where none of us are one dimensional.

13:09

All of us have different parts, different pieces.

13:12

And I even think about that as it relates to women

13:14

in the WNBA, right, Like we

13:16

look at players in the WNBA and

13:18

we say, you know, oh, djn A Carrington,

13:21

she's beautiful, she has these lashes, she has

13:23

these hair. But you remember there was one time

13:25

last season where there was a conversation where

13:28

folks were like, oh my god, her nails are too

13:30

long, like that's ghetto blah blah blah blah blah.

13:32

Right, and it's like there's these these

13:35

secret things.

13:36

That we have.

13:37

And truthfully, if you you know,

13:39

really got to know Dja or really got

13:41

a chance to like follow her outside of

13:43

what she does on the court, you'd see she's

13:45

one of the kindest people, super silly.

13:48

Her nails actually aren't long at

13:50

all naturally hers

13:52

not with the crylic And it's it's one

13:55

of those things where it's like you think you know something,

13:57

you set this expectation, you set this stereotype,

14:00

and it's completely different from

14:02

who you really are. And social plays

14:04

a huge, huge Rollinette.

14:07

Yeah, I'll just add a little bit to that. I

14:09

think the one thing when you said social can

14:11

be really good or can be really bad, but to

14:13

me, it is what you make it. But

14:16

social media is the one place

14:18

though where like

14:22

it gives people a place and a

14:24

space to where they

14:27

feel relevant, but also

14:29

a place where they feel like they

14:31

can come for you behind a

14:33

keyboard or on a cell phone.

14:36

And that's where I've

14:39

just gotten to a point to where one

14:42

you just take a break, Like I have to mentally just

14:44

walk away from social media at times because

14:47

people feel like they really know you

14:50

based off of what they see on social media.

14:53

And I think if you spend

14:56

your time getting so caught up in reading

14:58

all the posts and all the repost

15:01

and tweets and about yourself

15:04

specifically, like it could

15:06

play a huge part in

15:09

what you feel mentally, and

15:11

a lot a lot of people aren't mentally

15:14

strong enough to deal with the

15:16

things that are said about you on social media.

15:19

So that's where I've gotten to a point to where I'm like, you

15:22

know, it's it's my it's my life.

15:24

Yeah.

15:24

Yeah, I absolutely think that there's levels to having

15:26

boundaries and that balance. And for

15:29

me personally, I mean this time last

15:31

year, I spent a lot of screen time

15:33

on my phone. Breaking news is a very hefty

15:36

business. Y'all.

15:37

And so this year I kind of took a

15:39

step back because it.

15:40

Was mentally taxing to be on

15:42

social media, to want to be first and all

15:45

those things. So for me, it was just

15:47

about taking time personally for

15:50

myself and to evaluate, Okay,

15:52

how am I going to do this, coming up with a strategy

15:55

turning my phone off after a certain hour

15:57

and.

15:57

Be like, yeah, this can wait until tomorrow.

15:59

I think that sometimes we always think that

16:02

we have to do things instantly, and

16:04

sometimes it's okay to just hold something

16:06

off for the next day and take that

16:09

time to yourself.

16:10

Do you remember when we did the We

16:13

did an article for the Slam exactly

16:15

what I'm talking about.

16:16

Yes, we did an article for Slam magazine and

16:18

one of the questions was what is your

16:20

screen time? And I

16:23

never paid attention to my screen time until

16:25

that particular article, and.

16:27

That twenty one hours was my screen

16:29

time? It said sixteen hours, and I was

16:31

like, twenty one hours.

16:33

There are twenty four hours in a day.

16:36

So only three and those only three hours you weren't

16:38

on your phone was probably when you.

16:39

Were sleep sleeping, breaking

16:41

breaking news, y'all. Yeah, that was crazy.

16:44

Though, that can't that can't be

16:46

healthy.

16:46

It's that's the point, And that's the point.

16:49

It wasn't It wasn't. I think that's exactly

16:51

the point.

16:51

It's not.

16:52

But it's it's so consuming,

16:55

like especially for you in that space, Like

16:58

you know, I think about you, and

17:00

I think about like Woa, how he was the

17:02

breaking news guy. Now there's Shams and

17:04

you know, Rachel Gallian and and just

17:07

there's so much consumption in that space

17:09

that again, it becomes difficult

17:12

to maybe balance who you are in a

17:14

personal life and just you know,

17:16

what you should be doing.

17:17

What does Christina enjoy? What does Cheryl enjoy?

17:19

What does Tea enjoy?

17:20

That doesn't have to do with you

17:22

know, basketball or sports or

17:25

media, But I just think that, like again,

17:27

it's relatable to most people. I mean,

17:29

there are lawyers who spend so much time in a courtroom

17:32

that you know, you're like, what do you what does.

17:34

Your family do?

17:35

What are your what happens when you're not

17:37

there? There are doctors who spend so much time in the

17:39

hospital. What do you do when you're not you

17:41

know, in an emergency situation or when you're

17:43

not at work, Like, well, how do you how do

17:45

you turn that thing off. And then there's something

17:47

that you said, Cheryl that really stands out to me.

17:49

When you say some people aren't

17:51

mentally taxing, I mean some people aren't

17:53

mentally strong to deal with

17:56

that.

17:56

I'll give you a perfect example.

17:58

Last year, I did a show and

18:00

I did a show with someone is

18:02

this girl?

18:04

Yes?

18:04

Okay, so I did. I

18:07

did a show last year with this

18:10

woman named Pearl Davis. And if you're familiar

18:13

with Pearl Davis, Pearl Davis is a very very

18:16

strong right wing girl

18:19

who has a lot of opinions that I disagree

18:21

with. Right But I didn't know I

18:24

was getting ready to do this show with Pearl, Okay,

18:26

I I wasn't aware. I didn't know

18:29

what til I show it up and I said, oh

18:31

shit. I was like, oh, oh,

18:33

that's a good thing. Don't worry about it, that's a good thing.

18:36

Don't don't google her, please, don't even tear your algorithm

18:39

up like that. But the point

18:41

is I also wasn't completely familiar

18:43

with her, but I had just seen a couple of things and

18:47

I did a show with her, and I was very

18:49

excited about this show. And I posted

18:51

a clip for this show on Twitter and girl.

18:53

They ate me up.

18:54

They ate her alive. I

18:56

was like me, everybody loves me.

18:59

I posted that I was doing a show, and we posted a

19:01

clip of the show and it was me and I

19:03

was sitting next to her, And it just so happened

19:05

to be the same day that

19:08

Caitlyn Clark was asked about

19:11

Dja Carrington, and I had

19:13

tweeted that I thought it was disappointing

19:16

that Caitlyn didn't take the opportunity

19:19

initially to dispel

19:21

the notion and the rumors

19:23

and the conversation about

19:26

racism and like her fan base, and

19:28

that same day I posted my clip

19:31

of this woman sitting

19:33

next to me without

19:38

you got the you got the audacity

19:40

to talk about a twenty one year old Caitlyn

19:43

Clark and here you are sitting on stage

19:45

with Pearl Davis. And so in my mind,

19:47

I'm like, oh, but I mean we have different

19:49

views, but I'm pretty sure I could shift the view.

19:51

They were like, no.

19:52

Boo, accountability taken accountability

19:55

taking it.

19:55

And I had to then be like, you know what, after

19:58

I quit the show, like four days in, I said,

20:00

this is four days in, y'all, but

20:02

I said, this is a

20:05

moment where I had to be a bit

20:08

vulnerable because they

20:10

were valid in the things that they were saying.

20:12

Now, they didn't all say it the right way, you know,

20:15

but it really had to show me, you

20:17

know, how mentally tough you can be

20:19

to take criticism because as an analyst,

20:22

I criticize players all

20:24

the time. As an analyst, I have

20:26

to tell you when you're not playing well.

20:29

There may be times that I say things that people

20:31

will be like, yeah, Tea, that's a little harsh. So

20:33

I had to sit in my moment and allow

20:36

those same people who I criticized to be

20:38

like t That wasn't a smart move, you know, And

20:40

it took a little bit of vulnerability because I don't like

20:42

seeing myself being talked about like that.

20:44

But I had to own that space.

20:46

So to your point, it does take a lot of mental

20:48

toughness to deal with that.

20:50

But I have a question to.

20:52

That, all shit, Well, it's

20:54

really a general question, okay,

20:57

but why can't you sit

21:00

on the same stage with someone

21:02

that doesn't have It doesn't have to be

21:04

in particular, but someone who doesn't

21:06

have the same views as you

21:09

and have a conversation Because

21:11

personally, I feel like that's

21:14

how we grow, That's how

21:16

we change. It doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with you, but

21:18

at least we can sit and have a conversation.

21:21

Yeah, I think to answer that question

21:23

in a general sense, not

21:25

to get to specific Yeah, in a

21:27

general sense, I agree with you one hundred percent.

21:30

I think the way that we may change and the way

21:32

that we impact people are the way that we do

21:34

developed actual solutions

21:37

to some of the things that we discussed is to

21:39

have genuine conversations.

21:41

The keyword in that is genuine. This was

21:43

not a genuine scenario.

21:44

This was a scenario where the producer was

21:46

trying to like get cleared, and so there

21:49

was no way that anything I said

21:52

I shouldn't been on that stage.

21:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

21:57

yeah.

21:58

There was.

22:00

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

22:01

But but generally speaking, yeah, that's how

22:04

you I got you.

22:04

Yeah yeah yeah.

22:18

Christina, has there been moments where maybe

22:20

you felt a little mentally vulnerable

22:23

on social media or where you've

22:25

like, dang, I kind of gotta eat that, or I gotta take that, or

22:29

maybe not because you really you really do it.

22:31

Rage almost what I had to put some people on a summer

22:34

jam screen because I am not the person

22:36

to clap back at anyone on social media,

22:38

say what you want.

22:39

I'm gonna just ignore it, lock you mute, you never

22:42

see.

22:42

You again in the algorithm, and I'm all

22:44

good, but you remember.

22:46

Yeah.

22:46

So there was one night I was getting ready

22:48

for bed and maya

22:51

good friend Tarika, was like, grow into

22:53

your phone. Yeah,

22:56

someone's chat leaked

22:58

and there's mesages

23:01

about you. And long story short, there

23:03

was a group of white male reporters

23:05

in the women's basketball space. They had

23:08

a private group chat and it

23:11

was filled with racist, misogynistic

23:14

messages.

23:15

My name was thrown in there.

23:16

They were talking about black media and journalists

23:18

in the space and it was really

23:20

really bad. And so I was like, oh, I can just ignore

23:23

this like I ignore everything else and when

23:25

it comes to my way, or I can confront it face on.

23:27

And so I have a pretty good following on

23:30

Twitter X and I was like,

23:32

you know what, I'm gonna put them

23:34

on the Summer Jam screen because people deserve

23:36

to know who these people are

23:39

and what they really think.

23:41

And so I did it. I pressed in. I

23:43

was like, oh, you're on the Summer Jam screen now. And

23:46

this group of journalists was essentially

23:49

exposed, and I know they were wondering how

23:51

the heck did she get that

23:54

text message? Well, I'm a newsbreaker

23:56

to space, I can I know and see everything. I get

23:58

everything, one of the

24:00

things that I don't break. But so

24:03

yeah, I put them on the screen and it really

24:05

forced that group of men to

24:07

be held accountable. And

24:11

I think that the w Twitter space, it

24:14

opened their eyes to what we have to face

24:16

as women of color in this space. And

24:19

yeah, it was something that you kind

24:22

of put under the rug because women's sports,

24:24

you want to advance women's sports, had all costs.

24:26

But to me, I was like, this is not

24:28

okay, and we need to have this

24:30

really an ugly conversation. And

24:33

it was all over the news headlines. I was

24:35

getting calls to be interviewed on multiple

24:37

news stations.

24:39

It was crazy.

24:40

Even the person who that

24:43

group was working for did

24:45

not initially want to take accountability

24:47

for the things that they were

24:50

saying.

24:50

His employees were saying about about

24:52

her.

24:52

And I've never met any of these people

24:55

when I'm in the media workroom. They

24:57

don't say hi to me, never out

24:59

of any conversation, and they've never worked with me, don't

25:01

know me from a hole in the wall, nothing, And

25:03

they had so much to say about who they thought I

25:06

was, or the privilege

25:08

that I have or whatever. I worked

25:10

fucking hard. I've worked so hard

25:12

to get to where I am and I don't

25:14

take it for granted. But to those

25:16

people, they thought that, you know, she's

25:19

she's a black woman, she was just given this, and

25:22

that is not the case to my journey

25:24

or how I ended up to where I am. So yeah,

25:27

I'm not gonna say the name, but yeah, and having me

25:30

the company was like, I don't think that I want

25:32

to make a statement about this, and

25:34

he just did not want to hold his employees.

25:36

Accountable until it hit

25:38

him publicly where the.

25:42

Sports industry was like, no, you have to say

25:44

something, and then he said it, but it was it didn't feel genuine.

25:47

Yeah, myself reached out to him.

25:50

Cindy Burunson reached out to him. There

25:52

were many of us who reached out who was just like,

25:54

you have to say something. It is not

25:56

good to just be silent on this, because

25:59

these are your employees and they represent you and they represent

26:01

your brand. But I think it's just adding

26:03

to the vulnerability that we have

26:06

in wanting to keep our personal

26:08

life personal and our professional life professional,

26:10

because if they could say things

26:13

negative like that about you as a

26:15

professional. Imagine what

26:17

the group chat would have looked like. And I'm gonna tell

26:19

you this type of friend I am. When I got that text,

26:22

I was like, yeah, I could leak it, But

26:24

at the same time, Christina's my

26:26

friend, so I'm not going I'm

26:28

not gonna sit on this text. I'm gonna send it to her.

26:31

If she wants to leak it, let

26:33

her do it. If she doesn't want to, that's

26:36

cool too, because it is about her. But

26:38

as another person creative

26:40

journalist in the space and someone

26:42

who's very protective of knowing

26:45

what it takes to.

26:45

Be in this space, I was like, I'm not about to just sit

26:47

on this text.

26:48

I think that's the one thing that I was afraid of was falling

26:50

into that angry black woman trope. Yeah,

26:52

that follows so many of us in this industry,

26:55

and I was just like, I'm not going to say anything I

26:57

don't like it is what it is like.

26:59

If they think that, that's up to them.

27:01

But at some point you have to stand up for yourself no

27:03

matter what people will think about you. And

27:05

so for me, that was my moment

27:08

of you have to speak out, you have to stand up for

27:10

yourself so absolutely, and I appreciate

27:12

it because also taught me that I have a whole community people

27:14

who have my back and are

27:17

very supportive of me in the industry.

27:19

I had GMS reach out to me, executives

27:22

in the league like no, like we really rock with

27:24

you.

27:24

Do you need anything? I'm here.

27:26

So it just let me know that I have a great

27:28

community in the women's basketball space and

27:30

that knows people have to be health accountable for Yeah.

27:33

No, thank god you did. But I will say this though.

27:35

Sure for you, it feels

27:37

like you are also sometimes often caught

27:40

between a rock and a hard place because as

27:42

a former player, you know and understand

27:45

better than any of us on the stage what it

27:47

means to be on a championship team, what it

27:49

means to be in a locker room, what it means to be.

27:50

An athlete, and building blocks.

27:53

But then you also share the commonality

27:55

of us of now being in an analyst and now

27:57

being a media personality, and if

28:00

feels that it becomes increasingly difficult

28:02

the more people get itchy Twitter fingers.

28:05

To maintain your

28:07

professionalism as an analyst and

28:10

also stand up for players

28:14

when they have been done wrong by

28:16

fans, by media, by others.

28:18

Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah,

28:21

I think you.

28:22

Know, first of all, being

28:26

a former NBA player,

28:29

like they are allowed to

28:33

say whatever they want to say

28:35

about the game today, the

28:37

current players today, and people

28:39

see that as, oh my goodness,

28:41

well if this person whoever, that former

28:43

player is right, if they said it, then it

28:46

must be true.

28:47

It must be right.

28:48

But the other side of that is as a

28:50

woman, as a former player,

28:53

it's almost like we're not entitled

28:56

to have opinions about the

28:58

game and where the game is to or

29:00

about certain players.

29:03

And that to me is

29:05

so mind boggling because

29:08

like I will sit here today and put

29:10

my resume up against any former

29:13

NBA player period. Well,

29:16

and I'm only saying that because if

29:18

you have a right to talk about the game, then so

29:20

should I.

29:22

And for me, it's never personal.

29:25

But it's always about wanting the

29:27

game to be better, wanting the players to be

29:29

better, wanting people to understand

29:32

where we've come from, where we've been,

29:34

and where we're going. So

29:38

yeah, there was quite a bit. And

29:41

you know, the funny thing is tea

29:43

and when you talk about social media again, people

29:46

can only go and pick

29:48

certain parts of interviews you've done

29:51

or certain parts of a podcast

29:53

clip, and that's.

29:54

What they're gonna post.

29:55

And so then the world goes crazy

29:58

like, oh, well she said this, but no,

30:00

did you listen to the entire clip

30:03

or the entire episode to know exactly

30:05

what we were talking about. So it does

30:08

get to a point at times where it's like,

30:11

like, what what am I really doing?

30:14

And is this where I want to be? Is this a space

30:16

I want to be in? But yeah,

30:20

because I feel like if anyone has

30:22

earned that right to talk about

30:24

the game and to talk about the players and to talk about

30:26

what we're doing.

30:28

Today, that I should be able to

30:30

do that. Yeah, for sure.

30:32

But there are people though, that are like, no,

30:35

you don't have that right.

30:35

Le'm me just tell you.

30:37

Yeah, I will run through a brick wall for both

30:39

of you, and I turned off play

30:41

about them right back to media. And

30:44

so there's been times in the last year where

30:46

I had to hold some of my media friends accountable

30:48

because they've written articles about

30:50

you that were not pleasant or didn't

30:52

have the full context of the story, and you

30:55

know, I checked them on it, like, hey, like, why are you

30:58

writing this one piece to create

31:00

this narrative? And I think that especially

31:02

in the w NBA space, we've seen how that can

31:04

play out with the Christine Brennan situation.

31:07

For those of you who don't know, there's a US.

31:09

Today columnist, Christine Brennan,

31:12

and she's writing a book about Kaitlyn Clark.

31:15

But also she's been in Indianapolis's

31:17

past year covering the fever

31:19

and Caitlyn Clark and the whole thing with dj

31:21

N. Carrington came up with the ipoke

31:24

and she just sensationalized

31:26

the ipoke and yeah, a

31:28

lot of it was not an ipope.

31:32

It wasn't it was a

31:36

but anyway, it's just how media

31:39

have been been creating these narratives about the

31:41

black players and the bigger

31:43

context of how that can play

31:45

out. No, absolutely,

32:00

I think the difference between me and Christina is

32:02

Christina will like, very

32:04

politely and very casually

32:07

and very professionally say hey, you're out of

32:09

pocket. So Rika will absolutely

32:12

clasp back and be.

32:13

Like, yore talking too fast.

32:16

Because I'm from Detroit, I'd be like, hey, y'all are you talking

32:18

to me?

32:22

The whole.

32:24

Friendships seven mile will

32:26

come out. You'll be like Eminem go to down all

32:29

of it. The whole thing will come out like it's

32:31

just which is very different. And so you

32:34

know, I say all the time, I was like, I'm not your average journalist.

32:36

Now guys like I will. But

32:38

I think sometimes it's necessary because

32:41

for that very reason, Like people again take what

32:43

they think, they see, what they think they hear, and

32:45

they will continue to push that button if.

32:47

You allow them.

32:49

And of course there's only so much you can do from

32:51

behind a keyboard, right, But what I find hilarious

32:55

is that when we are out in public and we

32:57

are at different venues, Like I

32:59

remember specifically someone

33:01

tweeting something crazy about Sheryl

33:04

and then we were at an event for Final four

33:06

and they were like, can we.

33:08

Have your photo? And

33:11

I was like, ooh, should I pull the

33:13

tweet?

33:14

See I'm the one

33:16

that I'll be like, but no, keep that same energy

33:18

you had on social media. But

33:21

here's here's the biggest one for me

33:23

though, because a lot of people want to take

33:26

they want to use social media and they want to take whatever

33:29

and turn it into a black versus

33:31

white thing.

33:33

It's not that at all.

33:34

It's because one thing that I am always

33:36

gonna do is stand

33:38

up for players, period. And

33:41

I remember this past season

33:44

when uh yeah, when

33:46

Chicago Sky played Indiana, Diamond

33:49

Deshiel's who foul Caitlin

33:53

and which it was a foul they call the foul blah

33:55

blah blah ah. That so game's over

33:57

and Diamond's getting all all

34:00

these ugly tweets and messages. So for those

34:02

who don't know, like Diamond de Shills

34:04

was really sick, like

34:07

very very sick. She had a tumor and

34:10

I remember, like some of the fans

34:12

were tweeting like, I hope the tumor

34:14

comes back and you die from it next time.

34:17

So I responded, right,

34:20

I responded and said Diamond, like

34:22

we're here, we got your back, keep being you, blah

34:24

blah blah. Well, they

34:27

they thought that I was talking about

34:29

the foul because for me at that point,

34:31

it wasn't even about basketball, but it's about a

34:33

person, a human being in her life. And

34:36

so then because I said what I

34:38

said to her, then they came for me right

34:40

like, oh, you're just a racist, and you

34:43

don't. I don't respond to everybody,

34:45

but there are certain times like when I have time

34:47

on that day and this day, I had time time.

34:50

So I'm more of a tarika,

34:53

not a Christina, God bless you.

34:55

For it's not wrong with being a Christina, y'all.

34:58

I just you know, I guess the bottom

35:00

line for me is and you

35:03

see it on the NBA side, but for

35:06

me, it's about like these

35:08

young women and men, like they

35:10

work their asses off to get to where

35:12

they are and doing what they do. And

35:15

how dare you feel like you can

35:17

just sit on your computer or your

35:20

phone and just just go

35:22

in and say some of the craziest,

35:24

dumbest things about someone

35:26

that you don't even know.

35:27

Yeah, and you don't even.

35:29

Know what her story is and the

35:31

journey she's been through to just to walk

35:34

again, right, And that's where

35:36

I was coming from, like I know your story.

35:38

Don't let all of what these.

35:40

People are saying about you on social

35:42

media like take you to a

35:44

not so good place, because it's very easy

35:47

for that to happen.

35:47

Yeah.

35:48

This it actually reminds me of a conversation

35:50

that Christina and I were having yesterday

35:52

when we were talking about like getting

35:55

people an opportunity to know players

35:57

and know the game before right now, like

35:59

right now, how women's sports is like the

36:02

thing, right, Women's basketball

36:04

is the thing right when you look at viewership

36:07

numbers. You can see that NBA viewership

36:09

is actually down this year, w NBA

36:11

viewership is up right, And

36:13

that's and that's a wonderful. Yes, please give a

36:15

clap for that, because that is how

36:19

long did we wait to get to this space. I'm

36:22

actually thinking it's really funny that we're shading

36:24

the NBA at NBA also, that's

36:28

hilarious.

36:29

But is that where we are? That's where we are.

36:32

But I say I bring all that to say there

36:35

is an opportunity that is available

36:38

for us to be able to educate fans

36:41

in new fans right, because there's this thing

36:43

that they say, we're like we're gatekeeping. I'm like, first

36:45

of all words meeting things, we're not gaatekeeping.

36:48

We are not hindering you from buying tickets, we

36:50

are not hindering you from using Google.

36:51

You can do whatever you want to do in the women's sports space.

36:54

But there's this thing that people

36:56

say, like we're gatekeeping, or that we

36:59

are not well to new

37:01

women's sports fans WNBA fans

37:03

specifically, and I don't think

37:05

that's the case. I am one

37:07

who thinks that we are very welcoming to

37:10

women's basketball fans and We want

37:12

people to enjoy the game. We

37:14

also want you to respect the history. Right,

37:17

if you've been an NBA fan for

37:19

five years, you're not gonna come out here

37:21

talking about John Morant is the goat.

37:24

You gonna be like, wait a minute, did you.

37:26

Forget like all the

37:28

people who before

37:30

you know what I mean, you'd playing wait dunk contest?

37:33

You do forget Vince car existed? Like

37:35

what do we do?

37:35

You know what I mean?

37:36

Like?

37:36

There are things? There are levels.

37:37

There are levels, hello,

37:40

Like there are levels to how we get here.

37:42

And I think our issue all.

37:45

The pun intended on that, by the way, but I

37:47

think that there are there are Our

37:49

issue has just simply been before

37:52

we got to where we are in twenty twenty

37:54

five, there was a whole slew

37:57

of people that came from nineteen

37:59

ninety seven to this point, and that

38:01

slew of people have to be

38:04

recognized and respected,

38:06

and those stories aren't being told

38:09

enough to where new fans

38:11

have to be open to wanting to listen

38:14

and learn those stories.

38:15

And it it definitely has a part

38:17

with coverage.

38:18

We know coverage with different than and

38:20

investment was different then than

38:22

it is now. But it's available, like

38:24

you can YouTube previous

38:27

All Star games. You can YouTube, and

38:29

you can google. You know where

38:31

we started, how we got here. You get google

38:34

that nineteen ninety six Olympic team, you know

38:36

what I mean. Like, I was so excited to see

38:38

that doc Cheryl at thirty for thirty.

38:40

It was so good, and I'm

38:42

just like, this is my childhood in front

38:45

of me. Not to make you feel the way, but

38:47

I was like, I

38:50

was like, yeah, I was actually flexing

38:52

low key.

38:52

I was like, hey, y'all see Cheryl, that's my girl, my

38:56

girl.

38:58

Speech.

38:58

You know what I'm saying. I was like, oh, y'all see Dawn.

39:00

I'm about to text.

39:04

But it's just like, those stories have to be

39:06

told in order for folks to understand

39:09

why we're so protective

39:12

of the game and why we will

39:14

continue to be protective

39:16

of this space. It's not one

39:18

that we're going to let people enter with false narratives.

39:20

It's one that we want you to come and enjoy,

39:23

but we want you to come and enjoy with a clear

39:25

vision of where and how we got here.

39:27

Yeah, because we we want you to come

39:29

and be a part of something

39:32

we've been building from day one, right

39:34

and to be excited about it and

39:36

to support the league,

39:39

right, And it's so okay for you to

39:41

have a favorite player. We all do, right, Asia

39:45

Wilson is my favorite player, right get away?

39:48

Yeah right, But I just because

39:50

I want to tell this story real quickly before

39:53

I have to go.

39:54

So I went this morning to

39:57

do a toast for.

39:58

Asia Wilson, who's getting her own to Nature

40:00

shoe finally, And what I said.

40:02

To her was yeah, seriously

40:05

yes.

40:05

But what I said to her was, Sabrina

40:07

and Escu has a shoe. But Asia

40:10

Wilson the first black

40:12

female in thirty years

40:16

since I got my shoes. But

40:20

you know what's really interesting about

40:22

this moment where we are, and it's

40:25

not just Asia but Sabrina

40:27

with a shoe and Asia with a shoe, and Caitlyn

40:29

getting a shoe, Like that's

40:32

a real thing.

40:33

Now.

40:34

Back in the day in nineteen ninety seven, when

40:37

Nike gave me my first shoe, people

40:39

looked at them like, what in the hell are

40:41

y'all thinking giving a female her own

40:43

shoe. No one's gonna buy it, no one's

40:45

gonna wear it. But like Nike

40:47

thought outside the box, and now

40:50

you have all these different brands and

40:52

people right that are like.

40:54

Oh, women's basketball is the thing.

40:56

So I was telling Asia in ninety

40:58

seven when I signed with Nike, Nike

41:01

didn't even have a women's sports marketing division.

41:04

It was just like a here

41:06

you go, here's the room, do what you gotta do with it. And

41:09

so what really excites me today

41:11

about where we are is it's

41:14

not just the things that the women are getting on

41:16

the court. You have all these

41:18

women and brands who are saying we

41:20

see you, we hear you, we

41:23

need you.

41:24

So you have the Angel Reeses,

41:27

the.

41:27

Caitlan Clarks, the DJN Carrington's,

41:29

the Rakia Jackson's, the Asia like doing

41:32

things that we only

41:35

could dream of. And my

41:38

very first Nike contract

41:40

when I signed in ninety seven was like

41:42

one hundred and seventy five.

41:43

Thousand dollars wow, which then I

41:45

was like, oh my god, I've made it right.

41:48

And today to see a player like

41:50

an Asia and a Caitlin Clark

41:52

signing a twenty million

41:56

dollar contract, yeah,

42:00

like, I don't even know

42:02

what to say about that, because I never thought

42:04

that I would see this day

42:07

when we started the w back at ninety

42:09

seven, where we're sitting here actually talking

42:11

about how far the game

42:13

has come and these million

42:16

dollar contracts that female

42:18

basketball players are now signing. That's

42:21

what ninety seven to where

42:23

we are today, that's what it was for us.

42:25

It was about being able to be in this

42:27

moment and share in

42:30

this moment with everything that women's

42:32

basketball is experiencing today.

42:34

And I was to say, from a media perspective, I'm

42:36

so grateful for Iheartwomen's Sports

42:39

back because

42:42

even seven years ago it

42:44

was just so unheard

42:46

of. Right to have a network like this exists

42:49

where you can have women's sports programming

42:52

every single day, available shows,

42:54

available, opportunities available for people

42:57

in the media to be able to amplify the stories

42:59

of these athletes. And now that the

43:01

game is growing and the momentum is, you

43:03

know, picking up, we have iHeart

43:05

Women's Sports. We have

43:08

just women's sports, the w n B,

43:10

a w Slam, overtime, women's

43:12

basketball. You see people are

43:14

starting to invest and not see

43:16

it as.

43:16

A charity or I'm supporting women.

43:19

It's just you want to do it. You want to

43:21

invest because you want to do it. Yeah.

43:23

Yeah.

43:24

As we get ready to wrap up here, we

43:27

just have to take a couple

43:29

of things away from this conversation

43:31

on our podcast. This is what we call leveling

43:33

off, where we

43:36

one one to make sure that when we leave

43:38

here and we see our media people,

43:40

when we see our athletes and we see folks

43:43

who really work hard in this industry, you just understand

43:45

like there are two sides of everyone, right,

43:47

there's the professional side and there's the chill

43:50

side. And this is really just my disclaimer that

43:52

if you see me at a party later, don't be coming with me talking about

43:54

I see you to nah you plank

43:56

that was that was Terica Foster t

44:01

you got a drink in a hand, Let me alone.

44:03

Okay, that's that. But also

44:06

just.

44:07

Keep an open mind on inclusivity when

44:09

it comes to how people receive

44:12

women women's sports, and that everything

44:14

that we have to do is different, right, every

44:17

every approach to specifically

44:19

the W is different. Like we

44:21

love to continue to see how much

44:24

W players are getting love even this weekend

44:26

at NBA All Star, the activations,

44:29

the amount of people that are excited.

44:32

I mean, we had Tiffany Hayes on the show

44:34

yesterday part.

44:35

Of the Golden State Valkyries.

44:37

The league is expanding and so all

44:40

of these new opportunities are happening

44:42

and we love to see how fans

44:45

are embracing these women and

44:47

embracing this new opportunity for women,

44:49

but also understand even in those

44:51

things, there are still some some very

44:54

small but significant differences

44:57

in how we discuss women and how we talk

44:59

about women. Even something is we're

45:03

definitely if you're here, Like

45:05

I could be a snack, but can

45:07

I not be a snack in my job?

45:09

You know what I'm saying, I'm a.

45:14

Do you know?

45:14

Do you guys know who I am? You know

45:16

I am?

45:18

But yeah, Like it's

45:20

just it's just there's a there's a way that we

45:23

discussed that we talk about. I mean even as

45:25

far as something as being a mom and being a basketball

45:27

player, right, Like, it's something that we don't discuss.

45:30

We don't discuss dads having to not be

45:32

home at Christmas or notving to you know,

45:34

not be not that they don't do it or don't have to think

45:36

about it, but it's just not something that's discussed.

45:38

It's normal, right for a woman to have

45:40

to be pregnant play basketball, miss games,

45:42

have to go on the back, breastfeed, come back

45:45

out.

45:45

You remember a Dia Dia.

45:46

Barnes two

45:49

seasons pregnant and made the

45:51

all start the

45:53

playoffs.

45:54

Yes, yes, Kim Calwell just quite literally

45:56

had a baby and a week later she was back out there

45:58

pretendency coaching like these are

46:00

the kinds of incredible

46:03

women that we have in this space, and

46:05

so we just have to think about how we cover them

46:07

and how we celebrate them differently than

46:09

we do. But at

46:12

the end of the day, I have really enjoyed

46:14

this conversation with both of you. I

46:16

hope that all of you guys take a moment to

46:19

pull out your phones and follow levels

46:21

to this on all of your podcasting

46:24

where that's Apple Podcasts. I heartpot

46:27

Spotify also in case

46:29

you missed it, with Christina Williams. Every

46:33

week she has incredible guests on to keep

46:35

you updated on what you may have missed

46:37

in the women's sports space.

46:39

And Cheryl, what are you getting ready to go?

46:41

Do?

46:41

I gotta go?

46:42

Sorry, my son is in the G League

46:44

slam dunk contests.

46:46

Sorry, I gotta I gotta go. Y'all,

46:48

thanks for being here. Thank you guys so much for

46:50

having us.

46:52

Well. I hope you guys enjoyed

46:54

that conversation and maybe

46:57

you took away some things from it

46:59

that have impacted you.

47:01

I'm super excited to be.

47:02

Back in a group of things, navigating

47:05

so much in my personal life, but just happy

47:07

to be back. There's lots of excited things happening

47:09

in and around women's sports,

47:11

and so I'll see you guys next

47:14

week, and we're gonna be back to our regular schedule

47:16

programming. Don't forget to rate, review,

47:19

and subscribe.

47:20

To the podcast. I'll see you guys

47:22

next week.

47:25

In case you missed it with Christina Williams is

47:27

an iHeart women's sports production in

47:29

partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

47:31

You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,

47:34

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.