0:00

Hello and welcome to In It,

0:02

a podcast for families with kids

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who learn and think differently.

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Here you'll find advice, camaraderie,

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stories of successes, and yes,

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sometimes failures from experts and

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from parents and caregivers like

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you. I'm Gretchen Verstra, a

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former classroom teacher and an

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editor here at Understood.org. And

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I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer,

0:23

editor, and mom who has

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definitely been in it. Today,

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we're talking about messiness. Messy

0:29

rooms, messy habits, all the

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mess. And how maybe it's

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on us to care less

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about the mess, rather than

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putting it on our messy

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kids to care more. Joining

0:41

us to talk about this

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is Casey Davis, who wrote

0:45

the 2022 bestseller, How to

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Keep House, While Drowning. She's

0:49

also a Therapist and hosts

0:51

struggle care. Earlier this year, Casey

0:54

wrote a great piece for the

0:56

New York Times called In Defense

0:58

of Messiness, and her insights into

1:00

her own lived experiences as a

1:02

quote-unquote messy person give her a

1:05

unique understanding of what's going on

1:07

with kids who make a mess.

1:09

She also has a ton of

1:11

practical tips, built around the idea

1:13

that, as she puts it, you

1:16

don't work for your home, your home

1:18

works for you. So Casey, welcome to

1:20

In It. Hi, I'm glad to be here.

1:22

We're so glad to have you here.

1:24

I've really been looking forward to this

1:26

conversation. As you know, we're talking today

1:29

about kids messy rooms and the feelings

1:31

that we have as adults about messy

1:33

rooms, the shame, the guilt, the fear

1:35

that someone might unexpectedly show up. That

1:37

is a big one for me and

1:40

judge us for the mess. So maybe

1:42

a way to get into all of

1:44

those feelings would be to talk about

1:46

the article that you recently published in

1:48

the New York Times with the title

1:50

in Defense of Messiness. I loved it.

1:53

And what I really want to talk

1:55

about are the photos that accompany that

1:57

article. So could you first just kind

1:59

of talk? about what we see in

2:01

those photos and what you see

2:03

in those photos and kind of

2:05

how they make you feel plastered

2:07

in the New York Times. Yeah

2:10

so it is a picture of

2:12

my like living room, dining room,

2:14

and it's very messy. You can

2:17

see my commercial-sized open trash can

2:19

on wheels. I think that there's

2:21

also a picture of my bedroom.

2:23

with our like betting all over

2:26

the place and all of our

2:28

dirty clothes on the floor. You

2:30

know, I've been posting my house

2:33

on Tiktok for so long that

2:35

I'm kind of used to like

2:37

showcasing my space. So I didn't

2:40

feel that different about that. But

2:42

I was like, oh, those are

2:44

big pictures. But I had such

2:47

fun writing that article because I

2:49

talk a lot about how messiness

2:51

is not a moral failing. But

2:54

I don't. talk as much about

2:56

like kind of in celebration of

2:58

messiness. And my favorite paragraph to

3:01

write was talking about how

3:03

like not all of us can

3:05

be Marie Condo's closet because some

3:07

of us are Albert Einstein's desk.

3:09

Yes, right. And so, you know, just

3:11

this idea that what makes us

3:13

special can be the same thing

3:15

that makes us kind of scattered. How

3:18

did you get to this place?

3:20

Because I feel like ingrained in

3:22

society is that... being neat is

3:24

the way to go and means that

3:26

you've got your life together. Yeah,

3:29

I think two things. The first is,

3:31

you know, I went to drug rehab

3:33

when I was 16 years old, had

3:35

a pretty severe drug addiction, and I

3:37

also was selfish and... irresponsible and messy

3:39

and never did my homework and was

3:41

failing out of classes and didn't shower

3:43

enough and didn't take care of my

3:46

body and you know all these kinds

3:48

of things all wrapped into one and

3:50

I was committed impatient for like a

3:52

year and a half and while I

3:54

was there I did a lot of emotional

3:56

work and got over the addiction

3:58

and became a really healthy person emotionally

4:01

and psychologically. And the structure of the

4:03

place that I was living had me,

4:05

you know, showering every morning and, you

4:07

know, learning how to clean things and

4:10

learning how to be tidy and learning

4:12

how to do all these things and

4:14

being up to a certain time. And

4:16

when I got out, you know, I

4:18

continued that journey of being emotionally healthy

4:21

and seeing therapists and growth, but it

4:23

was like 48 hours before I was

4:25

like sleeping in and leaving my stuff

4:27

everywhere. And I think that like just

4:30

as that went on it just became

4:32

obvious like, oh, these things weren't connected.

4:34

Like yes, I need to take care

4:36

of myself. Yes, I need to be

4:38

able to function in my space. But

4:41

like my tendency to be messy came

4:43

right back when the structure wasn't there

4:45

to force me to be like neat

4:47

and tidy all the time. And I

4:50

just got to clue me in like,

4:52

oh, this isn't a moral problem. This

4:54

is an irresponsibility problem. I was extremely

4:56

responsible, you know, in my early 20s.

4:59

So I think that was my first

5:01

clue, you know, but I think the

5:03

other part was, you know, you know,

5:05

you know, you know, because everything is

5:07

messy and I can't keep up and

5:10

you know there's no clean laundry and

5:12

there's no clean dishes and things are

5:14

gross and dirty and the amount of

5:16

times that I tried you know I

5:19

read the Marie Condo book I read

5:21

the home edit I tried to do

5:23

these systems and they never worked for

5:25

me and I finally realized that I

5:28

was choosing systems that were very much

5:30

working against my brain. Like they weren't

5:32

systems built for messy people and I

5:34

think that that was kind of the

5:36

second part was now that I've sort

5:39

of created these systems for myself. I

5:41

realize, A, nothing wrong with me. B,

5:43

I can have a perfectly functional home

5:45

as long as I sort of work

5:48

with who I am and what my

5:50

tendencies are, and then create systems around

5:52

that. Tell us a little bit more

5:54

about how your brain works and how

5:57

you kind of figure out your systems

5:59

and like, you know, what. I would

6:01

call like tricks or hacks, because like

6:03

identifying some of these solutions, I feel

6:05

like a lot of people, myself included,

6:08

have trouble just figuring that part out.

6:10

Yeah. So I have ADHD and a

6:12

lot of executive functioning is affected by

6:14

that. So your executive functions are things

6:17

like time management, working memory, breaking things

6:19

into steps, you know, flexibility. There are

6:21

other things there. But like working memory

6:23

is a big one for me because,

6:26

and it got really bad when I

6:28

had kids, because let's say I got

6:30

the milk out because someone asked for

6:32

milk and I'm pouring it, but now

6:34

they're asking for a band-aid because they're

6:37

hurt. So I put the milk down

6:39

and I go get the band-aid and

6:41

I take the band-aid and I go

6:43

get the band-aid and I take the

6:46

band-aid and I take the band-aid and

6:48

I take the band-aid and I take

6:50

the band-and-aid and I take the band-aid

6:52

and I take the band-aid. And I

6:54

take the band-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a And then the next

6:57

time, you know, 20 minutes later, I

6:59

walk into the kitchen and I see

7:01

that that milk is there still. And

7:03

when it wasn't in my visual field,

7:06

it almost like ceased existing to me.

7:08

So that's a big part of messiness.

7:10

And so if I really focus on

7:12

put everything back as soon as you

7:14

use it, I could pull that off

7:17

for a day, but I'll be exhausted.

7:19

Yeah. So why do you think things

7:21

like... putting toys away or folding laundry

7:23

or doing dishes are so hard for

7:25

many people so including people who don't

7:28

have ADHD why are these particular types

7:30

of tasks hard well so your executive

7:32

functions everyone has executive functioning and your

7:34

executive functioning can be compromised by a

7:36

ton of different things it can be

7:39

things like ADHD or autism or depression

7:41

or anxiety but it's also exhaustion burnout

7:43

stress being too hungry, being in pain,

7:45

being like all those things can can

7:48

sort of compromise those executive functions. I

7:50

always like to say like it's not

7:52

hard. for me to fold laundry. It

7:54

is hard for me to start folding

7:56

laundry. Right. And so a lot of

7:59

advice around home management is all about

8:01

like just do a little as you

8:03

go. The reason it doesn't work for

8:05

me and people like me is because

8:07

the part I get stuck on is

8:10

making the decision and initiating the action

8:12

to go do the laundry. It's the

8:14

same thing with picking up. Like I

8:16

actually don't hate the process of like

8:18

tidying up. But for my brain to

8:21

not feel like you are asking it

8:23

to put its hand on a hot

8:25

stove it needs to be its own

8:27

Separate activity where I don't focus on

8:29

other things Okay, I want an hour

8:32

and a half I want to focus

8:34

only on tidying I want to put

8:36

on my playlist, I need to have

8:38

on like the right kind of clothes,

8:40

I need to kind of psych myself

8:43

into like this is what we're doing.

8:45

Like the way, like imagine when you

8:47

need to go to the gym and

8:49

you're not somebody who's just like, yeah,

8:51

let's go to the gym, like you

8:54

really have to kind of psych yourself

8:56

into it. That's how it feels. Once

8:58

I get moving, I'm fine. because it

9:00

takes the same amount of cycling myself

9:03

up and motivation and energy and attention

9:05

to put one thing away as it

9:07

does to put 23 things away. I

9:09

love this topic because I am the

9:11

person who tidies like non-stop and sometimes

9:14

you know people are like just sit

9:16

down and stop tidings. But I have

9:18

a child who does the dishwasher thing.

9:20

The plate is on the table, they're

9:22

eating, then they get up and it's

9:25

still there and the dishwasher is right

9:27

there. and it's empty and it could

9:29

be put in there and when I've

9:31

asked why I've gotten I'm so busy

9:33

thinking about what I have to do

9:36

next yeah that I don't do it

9:38

and I'm like well I got homework

9:40

to do so screw this plate like

9:42

I gotta I gotta get in my

9:44

room and start my homework and it's

9:47

been so hard for me to watch

9:49

and understand and not be an ag

9:51

about because I'm just like but it's

9:53

so simple but what you're saying about

9:55

the like emotional drain of like just

9:58

adding that task non-stop all day I

10:00

mean that's just so enlightening yeah and

10:02

it's also has to do with how

10:04

many steps like like that is simple

10:06

to you but to me there are

10:09

multiple steps there is okay I'm done

10:11

eating so I have to Readjust my

10:13

attention and focus. I have to exercise

10:15

delayed gratification, which is not a skill

10:17

children or teenagers have, right? I have

10:20

to get up, walk over to the

10:22

dishwasher, I have to pull out the

10:24

rack, I have to pull out the

10:26

rack, I have to find a place

10:29

to put it, God forbid there's no

10:31

easy place, because now there's about nine

10:33

other different steps, right? I gotta put

10:35

it in there, shut it, shut it,

10:37

closed it. Yeah, so the key is

10:40

that for things like that, I have

10:42

to make things shorter steps because there

10:44

are some things I can't do once

10:46

a week, right? I would have roaches,

10:48

right, if I say that once a

10:51

week. But when I first started to

10:53

tackle the fact that I left dishes

10:55

everywhere, because again, I'm not saying, well,

10:57

my natural state is to leave dirty

10:59

dishes everywhere, so let's celebrate it, who

11:02

cares? Like, no, me and my family

11:04

deserve to be in a sanitary home.

11:06

right, and to have clean dishes. There's

11:08

a couple of different things you could

11:10

do. One is you could do the

11:13

like, dishes go in the sink. That's

11:15

it. No other steps. Because that's better

11:17

than all around the house. Dishes go

11:19

in the sink and then every day

11:21

when you get home and you walk

11:24

in the first, when you get home

11:26

and you walk in, the first thing,

11:28

the first thing you do are all

11:30

those dishes. Because again, you're fully focused

11:32

on that activity and it's done. What

11:35

if the rule was When you eat

11:37

in the kitchen, you use the real

11:39

dishes, but if you eat anywhere else

11:41

in the house, you take a paper

11:44

plate, because then you can eat and...

11:46

throw it away. And I'm not saying

11:48

that has to be the rule forever,

11:50

but right now, when we want to

11:52

try and we want to try and

11:55

make the smallest change that is the

11:57

closest to our natural inclination to action

11:59

as possible. So like I take my

12:01

clothes off and drop them where they

12:03

are and I'm done. Because think about

12:06

it. When are you ever changing clothes?

12:08

It's always in preparation to do something

12:10

else. And my brain's going a million

12:12

miles an hour. I am on to

12:14

that next thing. Well, it doesn't mean

12:17

just live with your clothes on the

12:19

ground, unless that doesn't bother you. But

12:21

what if it meant there needs to

12:23

be a laundry basket in every room

12:25

of my house? Because now, no matter

12:28

where I am at my house, I'm

12:30

never more than two steps away from

12:32

being able to chuck something down into

12:34

a laundry basket. That means that when

12:36

I walk by and I noticed now

12:39

there's too many clothes on the floor

12:41

and I am starting to feel anxious,

12:43

or it's a little unusable. it's easy

12:45

for my brain to go pick it

12:47

all up and put it right there

12:50

right there you don't have to walk

12:52

it to the laundry basket right you

12:54

don't have to walk it to the

12:56

laundry room what done so do you

12:59

have laundry basket in the kitchen yeah

13:01

oh 100% what dish towels oh yeah

13:03

true you got to find those bottlenec

13:05

so for me you'll notice in my

13:07

pictures in the New York Times you

13:10

can tell by looking that my mess

13:12

is they are messes from a recent

13:14

use right so Yeah, you couldn't just

13:16

sit down at my dining room table

13:18

right now and eat because there's a

13:21

bunch of boxes on it. However, the

13:23

only difference is I'm cleaning up the

13:25

table so that we can sit down,

13:27

you're cleaning up the table after you

13:29

ate at it. Right. Like we're both

13:32

doing the same thing. There's no like

13:34

morally superior like when to clean the

13:36

table, right? We're both sitting down at

13:38

a clean table to eat. It's just

13:40

that my brain because of the urgency

13:43

because of the novelty and the challenge,

13:45

Let's take the stuff off, no big

13:47

deal. I can gear that up quick

13:49

because I want to eat. I've eaten

13:51

and I've gotten my reward, there is

13:54

no reward to then cleaning up the

13:56

table. So my brain struggles to kick

13:58

that into let's go. So how do

14:00

you figure out which of these household

14:02

chores and tasks should be a priority

14:05

and which you can maybe let go

14:07

of without feeling maybe shame or being

14:09

critical of yourself or your kids? So

14:11

one big thing is that We first

14:14

have to distinguish why we feel like

14:16

something needs to be fixed. And my

14:18

key to that is I want us

14:20

to focus on function. Do I feel

14:22

like my bed needs to be made

14:25

every morning because there's a functional reason?

14:27

that that bed needs to be made

14:29

or do I just feel like that's

14:31

what adults do and one time my

14:33

mom made me listen to that YouTube

14:36

about the general that said if you

14:38

didn't make your bed every morning you

14:40

couldn't do anything and you know what

14:42

I mean like we have a lot

14:44

of these like moralizing ideas right about

14:47

why things should be the way they

14:49

are and the first thing to recognize

14:51

is like maybe I don't care about

14:53

some of these things and maybe that's

14:55

okay so let's think about that with

14:58

our kids like Do I need my

15:00

kids to clean up their toys after

15:02

they use them or clean up every

15:04

day before they go to bed? Because

15:06

there is a functional reason why they

15:09

could not use their playroom if they

15:11

didn't do that? Or is it just

15:13

because I feel anxious looking at that

15:15

mess? Or I feel like that's the

15:17

way you're supposed to do around your

15:20

home unless there's a functional reason for

15:22

you. And so I think with kids...

15:24

It is important for us to teach

15:26

them the skills to create functional spaces,

15:29

but I always want to attach it

15:31

to the functionality. So when my kids

15:33

were really little, when they were like

15:35

two and four, I don't have arbitrary

15:37

rules about you have to clean up

15:40

the playroom every night or every three

15:42

days or whatever. But I would wait

15:44

until one of them tripped over their

15:46

toys or couldn't find something or didn't

15:48

have room to play. and I go,

15:51

wow, well, it seems like we don't

15:53

have enough room in here, let's clean

15:55

this up so that we have room

15:57

to play. And you connect it to

15:59

that function. And that's actually easier for

16:02

kids because they don't have that delayed

16:04

gratification. So you're saying, well, but if

16:06

you clean it up tonight, then you'll

16:08

be happy tomorrow. Well, that doesn't mean

16:10

anything to children. But if we start

16:13

talking about, well, if you want to

16:15

make this puzzle, we're going to have

16:17

to clean up real quick because there's

16:19

not enough room. That's actually an easier

16:21

connection for them to make. There'll be

16:24

more motivated to do that. And then

16:26

they're connecting, oh, I'm doing this not

16:28

because it's supposed to look this way,

16:30

but because I can't play, I can't

16:32

use my space if I can't use

16:35

my space if I can't use my

16:37

space if I can't use my space

16:39

if I can't use my space if

16:41

I can't use my space if I

16:44

don't use my space if I don't

16:46

use my space if I don't do

16:48

my space if I don't do. Because

16:50

a lot of us as adults, the

16:52

number one problem I hear is, I

16:55

can't relax if anything's out of place.

16:57

I'm overwhelmed if it's too messy. And

16:59

it's not about it being functional to

17:01

use, it's just about the anxiety we

17:03

have. And that comes from the cultural

17:06

messaging. And where that starts is think

17:08

about if the only time you're ever

17:10

talking about mess around your kids is

17:12

when you are frustrated. when you're angry

17:14

there's a mess, when you're getting on

17:17

to them for there being a mess.

17:19

And so, like, I made it a

17:21

point to talk about when a mess

17:23

might not be functional and how we

17:25

can do about it, but also to

17:28

walk into that playroom and go, it

17:30

is so messy in here. You guys

17:32

must be having so much fun. Like,

17:34

I don't want them to have this

17:36

belief that something's wrong if something is

17:39

messy. Because I don't want them to

17:41

grow up and not be able to

17:43

come home after a hard day of

17:45

work and look at the laundry and

17:47

go I'll do that later I just

17:50

want to sit down and relax I

17:52

don't want them to see a mess

17:54

and immediately think I feel like something's

17:56

not right and I'm not doing the

17:58

right thing because all of that comes

18:01

from the programming that we get from

18:03

our family and from society and I

18:05

think that's come up with the cleaning

18:07

here where like I'll say okay it

18:10

doesn't have to be like Marie Condo

18:12

neat but if we're late for practice

18:14

because you can't find a shirt that

18:16

I definitely put where it's supposed to

18:18

go that's where I feel like if

18:21

I had to kind of find where

18:23

my line in the sand is it's

18:25

like well now we're like affecting other

18:27

people right so maybe somebody's picking you

18:29

up for practice and you're not ready

18:32

because you can't find the thing you

18:34

need that's the difference for me it's

18:36

not well that's a functional reason right

18:38

yeah have to be considered to the

18:40

people around us but the difference would

18:43

be instead of saying because of this

18:45

you have to keep your room clean

18:47

because that's how you would deal with

18:49

it instead it's trying to figure out

18:51

what is important for them and getting

18:54

their buy-in for the system. Because the

18:56

part that I heard about that is

18:58

that if there is a piece of

19:00

clothing that's important to know where it

19:02

is, well the part of that system

19:05

is you putting it in their room

19:07

with all of their other clothes. Maybe

19:09

if he knows or she knows that

19:11

there's one article of clothing that I

19:13

need to keep, maybe they don't want

19:16

to keep it with all of the

19:18

clothing that they know is going to

19:20

be sort of tossed where I keep.

19:22

the things that I need to know,

19:25

like, because my laundry is always kind

19:27

of in like a perpetual state of

19:29

jumbleness. Yeah, I will tell you that.

19:31

I came to this realization. So as

19:33

we all, as I said, I am

19:36

the tidier, I am very neat. And

19:38

I would have a daily heart palpitation

19:40

walking into my teenage daughter's room. And

19:42

I was trying systems and none of

19:44

the systems worked. And then, finally, one

19:47

day, she was just like, I know

19:49

it bothers you, but it doesn't bother

19:51

me. But I'm like, but how can

19:53

you find anything? And she's like, I

19:55

know exactly where everything is. things are.

19:58

That's me. I know where everything in

20:00

my pile is. That's my daughter. She

20:02

doesn't miss homework assignments. She has good

20:04

grades. So like, okay, I guess like

20:06

you don't need a neat desk in

20:09

order to do all your work, but

20:11

it took a lot for me to

20:13

get there. So I don't know if

20:15

you have any advice. I don't like

20:17

I could have gotten there sooner. Like

20:20

I don't just maybe people listening to

20:22

this podcast will get there sooner, but

20:24

like I really don't go in there

20:26

that often. The options aren't like over

20:28

manage or do nothing or say nothing,

20:31

right? Because it's about moving into a

20:33

support, like how can I support you

20:35

and what matters to you? So something

20:37

I said earlier was that the effort

20:40

to put everything back right after I

20:42

use it is more stress and energy

20:44

than the stress and energy it takes

20:46

to just deal with having something be

20:48

messy. But that doesn't mean that there

20:51

isn't sometimes a part of me that

20:53

wishes it was a little less messy.

20:55

It's just that on a cost-benefit scenario,

20:57

it doesn't rise to the point of

20:59

overtaking the energy or stress it would

21:02

take to deal with it. So when

21:04

we ask, oh I know or everything,

21:06

okay, is there anything about your space

21:08

that if you didn't have to do

21:10

it, if a ferry could come in

21:13

and do it, you feel like would

21:15

make getting ready in the morning a

21:17

little easier? or would make doing homework

21:19

a little easier, or would make you

21:21

enjoy your space a little more? Okay,

21:24

well, I guess if a fairy came

21:26

in and did it, I guess it

21:28

would be nice if I had a

21:30

little more space when I did want

21:32

to sit down to do something. Okay,

21:35

so that's where we go in with

21:37

that and go, okay, so how can

21:39

we support there? And it's not, we

21:41

don't start with changing their habits. We

21:43

start with changing the environment. So do

21:46

you need a bigger desk, can we

21:48

get you a box that is like

21:50

paper-sized so that if you sit down

21:52

you want to use your desk it

21:55

takes you to seconds to just take

21:57

all the papers and put them in

21:59

the paper box. You don't need to

22:01

organize them, file them away, just get

22:03

them out quick. Do you want a

22:06

bigger laundry basket? Do you want a

22:08

full-sized trash can't? Like where are the

22:10

bottlenecks? Right? Do we need baskets for

22:12

our clothes instead of folding them up

22:14

and putting them in the drawers? Yeah.

22:17

I think also a lot of these

22:19

suggestions could be really helpful for kids

22:21

as they... you know after high school

22:23

if they're going to be living with

22:25

a roommate whether they're out away at

22:28

college or just like out on their

22:30

own at some point and there is

22:32

this other person to think about, right?

22:34

And so maybe your Rachel and your

22:36

roommate is a Gretchen and... We'd be

22:39

great roommates. You need to be great

22:41

roommates as long as I have some

22:43

baskets. And I'm walking around typing for

22:45

you all this time. I think it

22:47

is a really great thing for them

22:50

to start to kind of understand just

22:52

also, you know, because there is maybe

22:54

another person in the scenario, whether it's

22:56

your partner or your spouse or your

22:58

roommate and like... you know they might

23:01

have a very different experience when they

23:03

walk in the door and see a

23:05

pile. Yeah and I think when I

23:07

grew up like it became a responsible

23:10

person the difference was caring about how

23:12

I impacted others and so yeah when

23:14

I was younger it's kind of getting

23:16

upset with me because I'm always leaving

23:18

my dishes in the sink and things

23:21

like that when I was older I

23:23

didn't become a tidy person but it

23:25

was like there were areas where I

23:27

have to expend my energy here. something

23:29

will be done so that I am

23:32

not imposing upon my the people I

23:34

live with and and imposing from a

23:36

functional sense so if they just don't

23:38

like to see the toaster on the

23:40

counter tough like but you can't access

23:43

the sink because my dishes that matters

23:45

right yeah so and I think that's

23:47

a big deal like we always think

23:49

about the person who has the lower

23:51

or like let's say has a higher

23:54

tolerance for mess as being the one

23:56

that is morally obligated to get closer

23:58

to the person that has the low

24:00

tolerance for a mess. And I don't

24:02

think that that's the case. Like I

24:05

could think of nothing more miserable than

24:07

feeling as though I could never relax

24:09

in my home. On either side, right?

24:11

And so I think it's about, about...

24:13

respecting that there has to be some

24:16

compromise in the middle. I say this

24:18

to moms a lot that are like,

24:20

I feel like I can't relax unless

24:22

things are clean, you know, and we

24:25

talk about, yeah, and we talk about

24:27

like having a spot in your house

24:29

that you can sit down and relax

24:31

and it's like, yeah, but if I,

24:33

but I can see the, you know,

24:36

living around, I can't sit down and

24:38

I, and I remember just being like,

24:40

like, turn the chair around. That's your

24:42

corner. That's the corner you keep clean

24:44

and dusted and no one's allowed in

24:47

there. Whether it's that corner or whether

24:49

it's your bedroom or whether there's a

24:51

seating area where you go, this is

24:53

mom's corner. If you come in here,

24:55

you come in here, you will come

24:58

in here, you will keep it immaculate.

25:00

If you come in here, you will

25:02

keep it immaculate because this is mom's

25:04

corner. You will keep in my house

25:06

where I get a space in my

25:09

space in my house where I'll think

25:11

about if it's made. That kind of

25:13

stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. This has been

25:15

so interesting. Thank you for all of

25:17

this. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank

25:20

you. Thanks so much for listening today.

25:22

If you have any thoughts about the

25:24

episode, we'd love to hear from you.

25:26

You can email us at In It

25:28

At Understood.org. And check out the show

25:31

notes for this episode, where we have

25:33

more resources and links to anything we

25:35

mentioned. This show is brought to you

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dedicated to to people

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with learning and

25:44

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25:46

and and If you'd

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