0:01

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode

0:04

of Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio.

0:06

My name's Jordan Runtag, but enough about

0:08

me. My guest today heralded

0:11

his artistic arrival with his self

0:13

titled debut, a gloriously

0:16

maximalist affair that marked him as both

0:18

wildly talented and wildly unclassifiable.

0:21

His musical maturity and dramatic flair set

0:24

him apart, and since then he's defied

0:26

expectations with a series of unpredictable

0:28

but always intriguing projects, not

0:31

to mention always rewarding. When

0:33

he titled his last album Unfollow the

0:35

Rules, it seemed less like a name than a

0:37

mission statement. He's one of my musical

0:39

heroes, and now he's paying tribute to a musical

0:42

hero of his own. He famously restaged

0:44

Judy Garland's iconic Carnegie Hall show

0:46

in two thousand and six, complete with a full

0:49

band and a full audience. Now,

0:51

in honor of what would have been a hundredth birthday,

0:53

he's releasing a more stripped down affair backed

0:56

by a jazz quartet. He recorded the tracks

0:58

in Hollywood's A Story Capitol Record

1:00

Studios for an added dose of authenticity.

1:03

He even employed a microphone she'd once used.

1:06

The scale down arrangements are mirrored by the scaled

1:08

down audience. In this case, it was just one

1:11

person. His friend Renee Zellwigger,

1:13

who portrayed Garland in the two thousand nineteen

1:15

film Judy My guest today,

1:17

has done an equally stunning job and habiting

1:19

the larger than life talent on this new record,

1:22

Rufus does Judy at Capital Studios.

1:25

I'm so happy to welcome Rufus. Wayne, Right,

1:30

Judy one of my favorite topics.

1:32

I know one of yours as well. Um, you've

1:35

talked about really first embracing

1:37

the Judy's Carnegie Hall album as a way

1:40

of providing joy for yourself in the aftermath

1:42

at nine eleven. Giving the last

1:44

two years we've all had, I feel like we could all use

1:47

a dose of that Judy Rufus magic

1:49

right now. So I feel like the timing is perfect. Yes,

1:52

yeah, well, I mean it wasn't actually nine eleven.

1:54

It was it was the the invasion of Iraq,

1:56

which which was after. I mean because right

1:59

after nine eleven there was this moment,

2:01

brief moment when it seemed like the world was

2:03

going to come together and be

2:06

you know, supportive of of the United

2:08

States and try to heal from that, you

2:10

know, tragedy. But then all the next

2:12

thing, you know, we were invading Iraq, and

2:14

it was just such a kind of non sequitur

2:17

and uh, really traumatic experience

2:20

that I still think believe we we you know, suffer

2:22

the consequences of so. Yes, at that point,

2:24

the Judy record became a reminder

2:27

of sort of a slim

2:29

reminder of of of of just the

2:32

occasions where you know, the US can be a

2:34

fabulous place and create you

2:36

know, love and

2:38

and and and brilliance and and

2:40

and positivity. And yes, I think definitely

2:43

today, in this day and age,

2:45

especially even maybe even more than back

2:47

then, at least domestically, Um,

2:50

we are in a you know,

2:52

a pretty sad predicament and

2:54

and and and and we have to once again,

2:56

you know, try to resurrect what

2:59

what what makes this place a great place, the

3:01

United States? I mean, just

3:03

this, the spirit of this music, I feel like it's

3:06

so so necessary and needed right now. And

3:08

obviously your relationship with Judy Trance

3:10

ends the Carnegie whole album. You have

3:12

a very deep relationship with the song over

3:14

the Rainbow, which you've been singing since you were

3:17

a child. How did you first get

3:19

in touch with with Judy? Yeah,

3:21

well it's funny because I had there's a there's a sort

3:23

of there's a classic story at this

3:25

point in my life where, um,

3:28

when I first met Laurena Left,

3:31

uh, you know, Judy's daughter, I was,

3:34

I think, and this is all on film. I believe

3:36

somewhere I should find the footage anyways, but I

3:39

one of the first things I said to her was, you know,

3:42

somewhere the Rainbow was my song. I

3:47

just sort of brazenly, you know, expressed

3:49

that because you know, I I sang it since

3:52

I was a little little kid, and you know, just

3:54

totally missing the point that you know, it was actually

3:56

written for her mother. So

3:58

so um so yes, I've always had a very

4:01

intense relationship to that piece of music,

4:03

demandly because my mother taught

4:05

it to me when I was very young, and she used and

4:08

I guess my you know, rendition was so captivating

4:10

that that, uh, it became a

4:12

kind of weapon that she could use,

4:15

you know, at parties and you know it either

4:17

you know, you know, get people's attention

4:20

or to you know, let's say, ended an

4:22

evening you know where things have gotten

4:24

a little too sloppy, so bring

4:26

down the kid and I'm singing somewhere

4:28

the Rainbow and then I could go to bed kind of thing.

4:30

So so it was uh yeah, it had a

4:32

whole range of of of of

4:35

usages. I

4:37

love your rendition on this new live

4:39

album. I the the acapella opening

4:42

was just yeah, that's

4:44

well, that's very much an homage to my mother, Like

4:47

it came mcgarriga, who sadly passed away

4:49

over ten years ago. So so me

4:51

saying because on the original Carnegie

4:53

Hall album she's accompanying me

4:55

solo on the piano and that the orchestra

4:58

comes in, so it's it's a nod to at

5:01

It's so beautiful. I mean, there's so many incredible

5:03

moments on this record. I mean I

5:05

wanted to ask you to me. Judy

5:08

Garland is just one of the most compelling figures

5:10

in entertainment. I mean, her talent, her strength,

5:13

her stories. I love her movies and her albums.

5:15

I love the autobiography tape she made

5:17

where you just hear her fire. I

5:19

just think it's so so captivating.

5:22

What is it about Judy that that captivates you? Yeah?

5:24

Well, I mean it started early, um,

5:27

you know with the Wizard of Oz and all of that. But

5:30

I will say that you know, there's a there's a there's

5:32

a funny little family connection as well, because

5:34

you know, my dad loud and Win right the

5:37

third he was actually briefly or

5:39

for for a couple of years, uh brought

5:42

up uh in Um in Beverly

5:45

Hills because his father, my grandfather,

5:47

Loudon Jr. Was he was covering

5:50

Hollywood for Life magazine and

5:52

they they they they were friends with Judy

5:55

Um and uh and and

5:57

and in fact, Judy Garland I think babysat

5:59

my dad or something and uh

6:01

and him in lies that used to hang out as

6:04

as when they were around ten years old. So

6:06

so so there is actually a personal connection.

6:09

Um. And I'm now you know, quite

6:11

good friends with with Laurena as well. So it's been

6:13

you know, a couple of generations here or three

6:16

arguably and um. But

6:18

but yes, in terms of her music and

6:20

her um you know, star status

6:23

and and and and the power of her, of

6:25

her of her legacy. Yet know that that that hit

6:27

me young and and then all through

6:29

my life, you know, whether it was you

6:32

know, my my trials and tribulations

6:34

with addiction, or my desire

6:37

to be like the best thing er possible,

6:39

or my you know, just wanting

6:41

to have a laugh. Um. You know, Judy

6:44

Goldan was always there as a as a big kind

6:46

of sorts. That's what

6:48

is always fascinating about her. I mean to this hope

6:50

and these bluebirds and rainbows in

6:52

the face of these tremendous you know, personal

6:55

demons and and just that that strength

6:57

that she always displayed. You mentioned

7:00

story with your father. I love your song me

7:02

and Liza. I think

7:04

it's an attribute to this. It's a great track,

7:07

definitely, definitely so this

7:09

album. You recorded the album at Capital

7:12

and you use the mic she use, which

7:14

that must have been just so

7:17

special. I'm a huge believer in in places

7:20

and artifacts being imbued

7:22

with that energy. What was that like? Well, you

7:24

know, on one hand, it was incredible, But

7:26

I also feel like, on the other hand, it's quite

7:28

common in the sense that you know, I've

7:31

worked and I've worked in um amazing

7:33

studios for years and

7:35

and and in Hollywood, uh and

7:37

Los Angeles, storry, all over the city. UM,

7:40

and you know, a really amazing mic

7:43

is often used, you

7:45

know, so so because they don't

7:47

make them like they used to do. And there is something

7:50

very organic about that whole um

7:53

world. And and so I'm pretty sure

7:55

that a lot I've used a lot of mics that have been used

7:57

by a lot of great people. Um. But yes,

8:00

take that out and and really focusing

8:02

on that for this recording. Was

8:04

was was a was a wonderful

8:06

experience. Um. And I think especially

8:09

doing it in the room you know where where she

8:11

where she recorded herself, you know, gave

8:13

it an extra um kind of you

8:16

know, sparkle but um. But yeah,

8:18

but it's it's one of the perks of of

8:20

of living in in in l A. You know, there are

8:23

problems with this town, but there there are

8:25

there are upsides too. I

8:28

mean that room in that microphone that was at a concert

8:30

of yours once and you describe yourself as the

8:32

secret child of Judy Garland and Frank Sinatra.

8:35

So I feel like being in that room is perfect

8:37

right, Yes, Yes, I was, I was. I was born

8:39

in that room. Do

8:42

you came out I came out of an amplifier, an

8:45

old tube amplifier. Yeah. Classic.

8:48

Did you own any any artifacts of

8:50

Judy's Um? Do

8:53

I own any artifacts of chitties? Uh?

8:55

You know, I don't. Um.

8:58

I I do

9:00

have a signed copy of of

9:03

of her of her you know, Carnegie

9:05

Hall record she signed, UM,

9:08

I don't the one that I you know, I

9:11

was very close to Carrie Fisher.

9:14

Um. So I have some you know, um

9:17

some some

9:19

some of her stuff, but uh and and some stuff

9:21

of her mother's but but nothing of Judy's

9:23

yet. I'd like to get what I'd love to get as a compact.

9:27

I'm I'm a collector of compacts. I had

9:29

quite a few compacts of famous opera singers,

9:32

uh, like you know, Jane Caspan,

9:35

Victoria de Los Angeles, so, you know, for makeup

9:37

and stuff. So maybe I'll maybe I'll ask Laurena

9:39

if she could you know one

9:42

day. Wantemplate that as

9:44

a as a gift of sorts,

9:46

or I'll pay get up something I

10:00

love. I watched the the Virtual

10:02

Concert when this was recorded, and I love that your

10:05

your micro audience consists

10:07

of Renais l Wigger obviously is a

10:09

dear friend of yours and brilliantly

10:12

portrayed Judy. And I was

10:14

wondering when she was in the midst of making

10:16

that film, did you both talk about

10:19

you know, but kind of getting inside

10:21

Judy at all. I mean, we we had a we had a couple

10:23

of interactions, but

10:26

but she had already really made the film at that point.

10:28

You know, this was when we were she was working

10:30

on the album, uh from

10:32

the movie. But uh, you

10:35

know, I yes, we had a couple

10:37

of conversations of sort of the act, but

10:39

it was mostly about the aftermath of having you

10:42

know, inhabited her her her

10:44

spirit and so

10:47

so yeah, it was, it was, it was, It was really um

10:50

wonderful. But but but in terms of like when

10:52

when you know, when she began that

10:54

process, you know, I think she was. She's a she's

10:56

a professional, she knows

10:58

that she's doing, doesn't need my help.

11:02

I think. Referring to the the

11:04

original concert you did in in OH six,

11:06

you described it as an exorcism of sorts.

11:08

I was. I thought that was a really interesting choice

11:10

of words. I wanted to ask you more about that. Yeah,

11:13

I know, it was very much a kind of um celebration,

11:16

but yes, and an exorcism as well.

11:18

I had sort of um moved to Hollywood

11:21

to make my first album, and and and and

11:23

brought along my you know, Judy obsession, uh

11:27

as well, And

11:29

and I kind of went on and on and on and and

11:31

and then. Uh yeah, at a

11:33

certain point when I decided to do the

11:36

the Carnegial concert, I I think I

11:38

was, I was just ready for another stage

11:41

in my life, uh where

11:43

I could sort of, um, I don't

11:45

know, just uh focus

11:47

on on on on on other

11:49

kind of legacies, shall we say. Um

11:52

and uh and so I

11:54

I I and I did. Actually after after

11:56

that series of concerts, UM, I

11:59

feel less kind of you know, um

12:01

inclined to uh, you know, to to to

12:04

buy a Judy Garland record whenever

12:06

I would go to a record store, which was which I used

12:08

to do all the time. Um. And It's also

12:10

interesting is that when I did the tenth

12:12

anniversary concerts UM

12:15

at both Carnegie Hall and also in Toronto

12:18

with an orchestra, UM, the minute

12:20

I started them, UM, I

12:23

instantly felt nothing

12:25

like Judy Garland. I really did feel much

12:27

more like my dad, Frank Sinatra. Um

12:31

and you know, had this had more of a masculine

12:34

um kind of approach, kind

12:36

of more tougher uh delivery,

12:39

shall we say. But but what's

12:41

nice is it now with this recording

12:44

that I did it. But we did at Capital Studios

12:47

and and so forth. Um, I

12:49

think I feel like she's returned. You know, I

12:51

feel like there's there's sort of I'm maybe

12:54

more channel challenge, channeling her

12:56

her studio work and her um

13:00

and her kind of how can I say, at

13:02

her her kind of almost medical

13:04

or uh find

13:07

you know, attention paid to

13:09

to the songs. You know, there's a clinical um

13:12

precision, ability, precision that she had

13:14

or with singing that that's that's captured

13:17

in her studio work. So so yeah,

13:19

So it's so she's back. Oh

13:21

That's one of the things that I think is so amazing about these

13:23

arrangements that are more stripped down. It doesn't have

13:25

the thirty six piece orchestra, but a small

13:28

jazz combos. I feel like there's there's

13:30

more room for the emotion to shine through,

13:32

and we can hear kind of every breath

13:34

of and pause of yours more And I think

13:36

that that makes it. It adds a level

13:38

of I don't know what

13:40

the right word is. Darkness is certainly not the word I

13:43

want to use. But there's you can step

13:46

depth, which which

13:49

is uh

13:51

yeah, I I you know, I think it's

13:53

a combination of things. It's both doing it in the studio,

13:55

but also the fact that I've now been singing

13:57

these songs for almost twenty years. So

14:00

there they are, you know very much, and

14:02

and encrusted in my bones and

14:05

stuff. And wish Judy had

14:07

when she did her Carneie Hall

14:09

show. That was always something that um that

14:12

I feel like I was, you know, I just I

14:14

could never you know, match,

14:17

But now that I feel like I can make me match

14:19

on certain numbers, not all of them by any

14:21

means, but on certain ones. You know, those

14:24

songs I have made my own some of them.

14:27

Is it in a sense because you you've lived some

14:29

of them in a way, as suddenly those experiences

14:31

are are more personal to you. Yeah, well, I mean

14:33

they're also you know, you

14:36

know, there are love songs, and there are also

14:38

songs about survival and songs about

14:41

you know, sentimental

14:44

um thoughts and and

14:46

and uh so, yes, I think as you get

14:48

older, you um

14:50

yeah, you start to you know, things become

14:53

more precious and more valuable

14:56

and and more fleeting and and

14:58

uh and and so therefore or a

15:00

little bit more you know sad.

15:02

So so so it's just to the songs, I could

15:04

sort of imbue the song with that and

15:07

That's the thing that always blows me ways that all

15:09

I've I've reached to put on your your live

15:12

album or Horror original live one

15:14

as well, over the years. And you know, I'll put

15:16

it on when I want to, you know, hear, when

15:18

I feel a little nostalgic and I want to hear you know, almost

15:21

like being in love or something and feel a little up, and I'll

15:23

put it on. And I'm always blown

15:25

away by the power

15:27

of it and just struck by the path it's. Is

15:29

that just the depth of it is. It's so

15:32

you know, you you expect some you know, some

15:34

some levity, but I'm always it's always

15:36

becomes a something

15:39

that you can't put on in the background. Let me put it back, something

15:41

that demands your attention. Yes, well,

15:43

that's that's interesting to bring that up, because I think, on

15:45

one hand that has been my greatest

15:48

asset and also my greatest attraction.

15:50

Why is that, well, in the sense I mean

15:53

like the music that I've I've created,

15:55

whether it's my Judy Garland work

15:57

or my other albums for that matter, Um,

16:00

you know, yes, you cannot put them in the background,

16:03

and and they demand a

16:05

certain amount of attention, and that that works

16:07

great. You know if you're into

16:09

music and you want to kind of go on that journey. But if

16:11

you just want to sit around and have a cup of coffee or

16:14

be watch a commercial and focus

16:16

on you know, the car, uh,

16:19

then uh, then my music

16:21

is it can be problematic because

16:23

because because it does demand all

16:26

everyone's attention so so

16:28

um so yeah, it's it's something

16:30

that I've always tried to juggle, you

16:32

know. And uh, you know, let's

16:34

just say that we don't live in necessarily the most

16:37

um kind of thoughtful

16:39

period of time and

16:42

and uh yeah, so

16:44

it's it's a struggle. But but on the other hand,

16:46

I think for those who who do

16:48

appreciate that and who are willing to

16:51

um go on the journey with me, you

16:53

know, they're there, they become very loyal and

16:55

and uh and and and they keep

16:58

coming back. So it's that's how that's

17:00

how it works for me. I feel

17:02

like I owe you a huge thanks as a as

17:04

a music fan, I was always

17:06

aware of this concert and in its place

17:08

in pop culture history, but it really wasn't

17:11

until Your Rendition in two thousand and six and the album

17:13

came out and the following year that I delved into

17:15

this catalog and absorbed these songs, and

17:17

I was wondering how much of that was a motivating

17:19

factor for you to kind of pass these songs

17:22

along to people that you know might not know him.

17:24

You know, that's a whole uh subject

17:27

on its own. Um. The

17:30

you know the fact that that that that

17:32

period in American songwriting is

17:35

arguably the you know, kind of the golden

17:37

era of

17:39

of American music. Um.

17:41

Whether it's you know, the

17:44

the arrangements or the lyrics or

17:46

the melodies. You know that it seemed like everything was

17:48

working at full speed at that time. UM

17:52

and uh so so yeah,

17:54

I I I very much consider it

17:57

kind of a legacy that

17:59

that that as an as an American and

18:01

I'm both the Canadian and American, but

18:03

but on my American side, you know, I

18:06

it's important to m celebrate and

18:08

try to match, you know, uh,

18:11

whether it's with your singing or your

18:13

or your songwriting, um, for so

18:15

that we can continue this um you know

18:18

this uh excellence um

18:21

and uh and so forth. Do

18:23

you feel in any way that you've come to understand

18:26

Judy any better having gotten insider

18:28

for these songs and these performances. Uh?

18:34

Well, I mean, I

18:37

I do feel that there's a through

18:40

this performances and the songs. I mean

18:42

I I do under I am

18:45

constantly and this hasn't really changed

18:47

over the years. You know. Amazed

18:49

by her technical

18:52

ability in the sense not so

18:54

much innurse singing. I mean she's, yes, she's

18:56

an incredible singer, and she cuts the corners

18:59

and and that's fantastic, but justn't

19:01

know her whole presentation, you know, how how

19:03

how how she really knew how to move on

19:06

stage, you know, how she where where her gaze

19:08

was focused her and because she was an incredible

19:10

dancer, you know. Um, and

19:13

so just that whole kind of

19:15

training thing which which

19:17

which in my in our day and age,

19:20

is so lacking you know, uh

19:22

in terms of the entertainers today.

19:25

Um, though some could do it, you know when you you know,

19:27

justin Bieber, you know, uh,

19:31

Lady Gaga, you know, they they you know, they worked

19:34

really hard on the full package. So

19:36

so that's so it's not dead or anything, but

19:39

but hers is so effortless and so kind of

19:41

I don't know, elegant, and

19:43

uh so there's that, but but in terms

19:46

of actually talking to people who

19:48

knew her um and worked

19:50

with her. Um, I am. I

19:52

am always fascinated by how

19:55

I think her personality was very different from

19:57

from that which the public expected,

20:00

you know it was I think she was I think she was a

20:02

lot sort of dirtier in

20:04

the sense like she was she was kind of she

20:06

had a real kind of uh,

20:10

how can I say, this wicked

20:12

streak in her that

20:15

was hilarious but also pretty you

20:18

know, uh, scary

20:21

if you were you know, in the line of fire and

20:24

uh and there was this kind of you know, punk

20:26

rock thing about her that um that

20:30

is always you know, I don't know, pretty pretty,

20:33

fascinating and uh and and makes me

20:35

of course appreciate her more. Oh

20:38

yeah, And I don't know, I don't she was not a good

20:40

girl. I

20:42

mean, what's those interviews with her? You know, I think

20:44

it's Steve Allen that she's all She gives these great

20:46

interviews, but she tells these stories and they're there.

20:49

She's rowdy on network TV in the early

20:51

sixties. It's incredible she is. And

20:53

I think that that's just the tip of the iceberg. So

20:57

interesting, so multifaceted. And I

20:59

do want to say, as somebody who's senior, perform

21:02

a number of times for twenty

21:04

years. Oh my god, yeah, twenty years.

21:07

Um. I truly believe

21:09

as a fan you have you possessed that effortlessness.

21:12

I don't know how you you do

21:14

what you do, you have this ability to I

21:17

saw you at Lupo's Heartbreak Hotel

21:19

and Rhode Island in two thousand

21:21

three. I believe, and it felt like you were

21:23

saying I remember I was there with a dear friend of mine

21:25

and we were driving home after he said, Oh my god,

21:27

it felt like he was singing to us. And I feel

21:30

like that's something that that Judy

21:32

and all the greats have where you just connect

21:34

with everybody in the audience and I um,

21:37

so well, thank you. Um. This

21:39

Judy uh concert was the finale

21:42

of your I have to pause. Rufus

21:44

Well, Rufus Retro Wayne

21:47

Right spective. There we Go was the finale of

21:49

you Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective where

21:51

you revisited all your past albums.

21:54

Um. We actually spoke soon after you started

21:56

doing these shows in early for your

21:58

debut and poses. I want to

22:00

ask you what is your relationship like to

22:03

these earlier songs? Now? Do you recognize

22:05

that person who wrote them and recorded them? Or

22:07

is it like looking at an old school photo. No,

22:10

I mean I know that they're all very I

22:12

do. I do recognize that that person.

22:15

I mean I tend to subscribe

22:17

to a more kind of Hindu

22:20

type explanation of

22:23

existence. I'm not I'm not Hindu,

22:25

but but there's they they for instance,

22:27

and I'm really you know, butchering this whole

22:30

concept. Um. But

22:32

you know, essentially they believe that, you

22:34

know, a person is made up of six or seven

22:36

people, and uh,

22:38

and that you know, and I felt over the years

22:40

that these very much like a tree,

22:43

um, you know, I developed these branches of my

22:45

personality and and and at

22:47

this point, you know, I'm kind of high up

22:50

and and uh and I can

22:52

look down and and really, you know, still feel

22:54

and see you know, these other characters that have

22:57

that have that have that I

22:59

that I've in habitant and created and and

23:01

that are still you know, within me. So

23:03

it's it's, uh, yeah,

23:06

I think the minute you start to say, oh, I'm

23:08

no longer that person, that's you know the beginning

23:10

of the end, that's when that person decides

23:13

to you know, hijack

23:15

the situation. So so

23:17

so, yes, I'm very respectful of my

23:19

past of my past incarnations.

23:35

You recently released a incredibly

23:38

fascinating x called an audio memoir

23:40

on Audible called road Trip Elegies

23:42

Montreal to New York. One of the

23:44

most powerful moments for me was a conversation

23:47

you had with you with your aunt Anna where she

23:49

told you, I'm paraphrasing to embrace

23:52

your family's fantastic legacy,

23:54

which to me it was just like the opening

23:56

of an Arthurian legend. Yeah, you know, it's

23:58

just so I've seen those as and clips of

24:00

you performing, you know, HMS pianoforre

24:02

at school as a team. Was music

24:05

something that was always something of sort of like a

24:07

given for you? Or was there a turning point?

24:10

No? No, music was always front and

24:12

center. Um. And that that's really mostly

24:14

due to my mother, Kate, who

24:18

you know, now that she's passed. I I really

24:20

you know, I can quantify

24:23

the the loss um and

24:26

um because you know, she was

24:28

someone who always needed to play the piano,

24:30

always needed to, you know, teach a song to someone,

24:33

always needed to hear what someone's voices

24:35

was like if they were visiting, you know, like

24:37

music was just always streaming through her

24:40

through her veins. And uh.

24:42

And now that she's she's she's gone.

24:44

It's the world is is very different,

24:47

you know, it's I mean I love to sing, my sister loves

24:49

to sing, My aunt Anna loves to sing. But

24:51

we're not necessarily you know, doing

24:53

it every night, which when my when my

24:55

mother was alive, you know, that was the case. We

24:57

still perform a lot, and music is still

25:00

very central. But but but

25:02

Kate was really the engine. Uh

25:05

So, Yeah, I

25:07

loved your song for her beauty, Mark,

25:09

Yeah, of yours such

25:12

a great uh smirk

25:15

of a tribute. I love it so much. I

25:18

mean, I'm hard pressed to think

25:20

of an artist who right out of the gate had

25:22

developed such a singular

25:24

voice and style that was all your own. I mean,

25:27

it just seemed like you arrived completely

25:29

fully formed. What

25:31

was inspiring you when you first went into the

25:33

studio to to record your your

25:35

debut, Well, I mean I

25:38

think I was brought up and and both

25:40

by my mother and father actually uh and

25:42

family members that to to really appreciate

25:44

excellence in all sorts of songwriting,

25:47

you know, whether it was standards

25:49

or classical music or folk music.

25:51

I mean there was a real wide variety

25:53

of material that I grew up with and appreciate

25:56

it. And so I just felt like whatever

25:58

I was gonna do, it had to map at that

26:01

code, you know, and it had to be something

26:04

that was really attempting

26:06

to to to to you know, I

26:10

don't know, just last and

26:12

uh so, so I just had

26:14

that that that that drilled into

26:17

me as as as a young person, and

26:19

when I went in to make my records, you know, that

26:21

was my one, my my main uh

26:25

objective. I mean, it wasn't necessarily

26:27

about you know, what the kids were doing at

26:29

that time, or who I was hanging out

26:31

with, or what was going on in the

26:33

mainstream. It was just about, like, let's try and create

26:35

something that's that's as good as

26:38

what I grew up, what I've heard so far

26:40

and what I've learned to appreciate. And

26:43

there was this kind of tunnel vision that um that

26:45

once again was was was was. It was

26:47

a help and a hindrance because you know, I was

26:50

I was certainly recognized, but I wasn't It

26:52

wasn't by any means what what was going on,

26:55

uh musically at

26:57

that time. So it was it was an interesting

27:00

journey. Here's a a

27:02

loaded question that I didn't write down, but it's

27:04

just popping on my head. Now, do you consider

27:07

yourself a romantic? Um?

27:12

Well, I always

27:14

find the word romantic so interesting because

27:16

you know, it comes from Rome.

27:19

Um. You know, I guess it's

27:21

it's sort of about you know, it

27:24

pertains to you know, like these kind

27:26

of Germans and uh,

27:29

you know, nineteenth century figures

27:32

who started to you know, become

27:34

these neo classic type of

27:37

uh worshippers and

27:39

and other things. But but but Rome

27:41

itself was very very kind of

27:44

unforgiving and you know, unemotional

27:46

and kind of stoic, you know, as a

27:48

culture. So I so I think in

27:51

a strange way when I think of romantic

27:53

I think of two sides. I think, yes,

27:56

uh, you know, yeah, I am

27:58

emotional. I am you know, I

28:00

am driven by my heart's desires.

28:03

I am you know, swept away. But I'm

28:05

also very disciplined and very very

28:07

kind of um pragmatic and

28:10

you know, dictatorial. But

28:12

I need to be uh so,

28:15

So yes, I think in the full sense of the word,

28:17

thinking about the both of nineteent century Romanticism

28:20

and also Rome the Roman culture.

28:22

Um I I can kind of inhabit

28:25

both. What is your

28:27

process like when you are writing? Is do you

28:29

have a feeling that you want to express and go

28:31

to a piano and kind of play it out of you or

28:33

do you hear music in your mind and it's just

28:35

a case of getting it down. I mean it's both.

28:37

I I set you know, kind

28:39

of uh, little traps

28:42

for myself, you know, whether it's whether

28:44

it's you know, having to write a song for musicals

28:47

or you know, for

28:49

for an album coming up. But then but then coupled

28:53

with that, I will, I will, I will

28:55

be pretty awake and kind

28:57

of um willing to receive

29:00

messages from wherever, you

29:02

know, and there's often like terms of phrases

29:05

or little melodies that kind of strike me and that

29:07

I know immediately that I've caught something by the

29:09

tail and then I gotta go home and you

29:11

know, reel it in. So so

29:13

it's it's kind of a combination of both

29:16

of you know, being very

29:18

organized about it and also being completely receptive

29:21

and willing to you know, go with the flow. Is

29:23

there an element of superstition involved at all?

29:26

Oh? Yeah, no, totally for me.

29:28

I mean, I do you know, I

29:31

I have tarot cards, I

29:33

I visit you know, grave sites,

29:36

you know, I I do Uh, I have pilgrimages.

29:39

I I

29:42

I I respect you know,

29:44

birthdays of of of famous

29:46

songwriters and stuff. So it's so yeah, I know,

29:48

it's all whatever for whatever powers

29:51

I could muster, I I

29:53

I call in. I love

29:55

that so much. That was something I loved about road Trip

29:58

Elegies where you kind of talked abou out

30:00

the relationship between geography

30:02

and creativity and songwriting, and I thought

30:04

that was so cool. How how a place

30:06

can influence you, you know, so

30:09

deeply, and you live in Laurel Canyon, Now that

30:11

must be very inspiring. No, it

30:13

is incredibly inspiring. And I'm actually working on

30:15

an album now that I'm finishing up, which

30:18

is really more folk based. Um

30:21

and yeah, I've been singing some

30:23

of those you know, classic loyal

30:26

canon numbers and and uh yeah,

30:29

very very much. I'm trying to bring back

30:31

this kind of sixties uh

30:35

optimism that uh that we

30:37

are sadly you know not and

30:39

happening at the moment. I've

30:42

been loving some of your your covers

30:44

that I saw Harvest recently, and your

30:46

version of who Knows Where the Time Goes with Brandy

30:48

Carlisle is amazing.

30:50

So I love your your covers of that era

30:54

Um, there's

30:57

there was an interview you gave recently that was so interesting

30:59

where you were talking about the song

31:01

Poses and which is something that I had

31:03

always assumed was autobiographical,

31:06

and you're talking about how you wrote it about an acquaintance

31:08

or a friend. And it wasn't until

31:10

years later that you realize you were sort of describing

31:13

what was happening to you. And

31:15

I wanted to ask, do you

31:17

often find yourself learning things about yourself

31:20

from your own songs? Um?

31:24

Yes, I mean, I mean, I

31:29

will say that, you

31:31

know, for anybody who

31:33

wants to know the truth about me and

31:36

and who wants to sort of dive into the deep

31:38

end of of my you know existence, it's

31:40

all in my songs. I mean it's everything

31:43

that I write is very much

31:46

um

31:48

bound to you know, a personal

31:51

um, either a personal

31:53

experience or a personal view or a personal

31:55

you know, trauma, whatever. And

31:59

and it's kind of and

32:02

I have found over the years now that I start to

32:04

look back at the songs that I wrote, wrote

32:06

when I was a lot younger, that that that in

32:09

fact I was I was being

32:11

um, very honest

32:13

and very kind of UM. I

32:16

was bearing myself in

32:18

this material and Uh. And

32:20

that is the true kind of testament

32:23

of of of who I am and what I what I believe

32:25

in. Um, so it's

32:28

uh, it's all in there and

32:31

uh and that is

32:33

uh you know I've made that

32:36

that bargain, you know. Uh

32:38

So, yeah, definitely. And

32:41

yours songs are so personal, which

32:43

is I think why so many people connect with them.

32:45

At what point do you start thinking about

32:48

the audience when you're writing or do you not? Is

32:50

that? Is that limiting to you? Well? I like to think

32:52

what I The only thing that I like to think about

32:54

is that if if the song is to be interpreted

32:57

by somebody else, or

32:59

if it's um, you

33:01

know, to be approached in a way that

33:03

the that the performer doesn't

33:05

have any kind of connection to me or

33:08

know anything about the backstory that that it

33:10

does make sense. You know that it has its own

33:13

kind of architecture. So I

33:15

am cognizant of that. And I also think

33:17

a lot about you know, uh

33:20

you know, am

33:22

I you know, ripping off someone else? Or

33:25

is this too similar to

33:27

to something I've written before? You

33:29

know it it doesn't stand on its

33:31

own, so I I do. I

33:33

am very cognizant and careful

33:36

about that kind of stuff. I

33:38

feel that a lot of creative people

33:40

find it hard to to make a differentiation

33:42

between their lives and their work, and

33:45

which for good reason, because it's such a reflection

33:47

of yourself and who you are, and it comes from such

33:49

a personal place and whatever you're going through. Other

33:51

times, when you feel like that, when you feel like it's tough

33:53

to distinguish between those two

33:55

draw draw line. Um,

34:00

I mean there, I think

34:02

it's I think there are, but it's mostly in

34:04

life. I mean in the sense that you

34:06

know, I work all the time and I'm writing all the time, and

34:08

I kind of live in this kind of cloud

34:11

like I live in this cloud, in this cloud

34:14

like existence. Um.

34:16

But then when there are you know, daily

34:21

or or maybe maybe more

34:23

weekly, shall we say, events

34:25

that occur where you know, you've got to do your homework

34:28

with with your your kid, or you have to clean

34:30

up the house, or you have to, um

34:33

go to the doctor, you know, whatever, you know,

34:36

you you do? Um, you are you

34:38

are. I am kind of woken up

34:41

and and a bit

34:43

brutally and taken out of this dream

34:45

that I'm that I'm mostly inhabits So

34:47

it's um. But but but you know, it's

34:49

it's uh, look, I'm a very fortunate

34:51

man. I have I have incredible family

34:54

and friends, and

34:56

and I've done well in my career, so I can afford,

34:59

you know, to live a certain way.

35:01

So it's so it's it's all good.

35:03

Uh, but yes, it can be a bit of a rude

35:05

awakening when you have to you know, do

35:08

you do homework with your eleven

35:10

year old and you're like, oh my god, I

35:12

might not know this. Oh,

35:16

Viva has got to have the best taste

35:18

in music of any eleven year old. Oh

35:20

my good, she has very good tasted music. She does. Actually,

35:23

yeah, she loves Dolly Parton,

35:25

she loves she loves um

35:28

the rhythmex you know. She yeah,

35:31

she has she has a good ship. And she also knows

35:33

all the popular stuff that the kids listened to.

35:35

So she's yeah, she's very very

35:37

curious kid in that sense. Has

35:39

she taught you any new any new

35:42

music names yet or is that kind of a few years

35:44

down the road. Uh,

35:47

She's tried to. But I'm I'm

35:50

I'm I'm pretty um, I'm a bad

35:52

stupid That sense of what's popular

35:54

I've always been, you know, I I it takes

35:56

me several years to realize why

35:59

something is a hit, which is, you

36:01

know, sort of not the point of the

36:03

whole exercise. It's

36:07

funny. In the last two years, I feel

36:09

like, you know, it's been so uncertain

36:11

and stressful. I've been finding myself revisiting

36:14

music I haven't listened to in decades, stuff

36:16

I listened to in high school, just as kind of musical

36:19

comfort food. Have you been been doing that

36:21

kind of like we're talking about with Judy. I mean, I think there's some

36:23

interesting stuff. I mean that now there's I

36:25

mean little not I do like little Nazacs.

36:27

I actually like the Weekend um,

36:30

and I do you know that it's not all

36:33

terrible. Um. But that

36:35

being said, I I don't feel

36:37

that there's necessarily a

36:40

kind of we're in a high

36:42

point in terms of songwriting. Uh,

36:45

you know, it seems more about, you

36:47

know, the package that's being offered

36:49

and sort of the dream that's being um

36:54

attacked or

36:57

or that they're attacking with. And uh

37:00

so it's it's not it's not

37:02

about the actual songs themselves. That

37:06

and that's you know, but that but that's my territory.

37:08

That's where I'm sort of, you know, staking

37:11

my my my claim. Last

37:14

summer on the heels of your absolutely

37:17

phenomenal and Grammy nominated I might

37:19

add album un Follow the Rules, you released

37:21

the track with Amber Sounds called techno

37:23

Opera UM, which was a whole new

37:26

sound for you. So cool, rufus does E D

37:28

m uh? Where where did

37:30

that come from? Is that something that you want to explore

37:32

further? So that was a bit of a that was a bit of

37:34

a pandemic pastime

37:37

because you know, I worked with with Zen

37:40

Freeman on that and

37:43

uh and

37:44

um, and he lives down the street.

37:47

So I think it was one of these things. I think it was one

37:49

of these things where, you know, because

37:51

there weren't there wasn't touring going on and

37:54

and and we were, you know, homebound,

37:57

that it was a good idea to just check out who

37:59

lived in the neighborhood and

38:01

who we could just hang out with, um, you know,

38:03

safely and and and and make

38:06

music with. So so I think that that really stemmed

38:08

from that whole situation. I

38:10

mean, there's been so many incredible

38:13

home concerts that you've shared with fans

38:15

over the last two years. While we're all kind

38:17

of homebound, and obviously you're keeping busy with music.

38:19

Are there any other sort of new hobbies that

38:21

you've discovered in the last two years.

38:24

Uh, well, drawing, I've

38:26

been doing a lot of illustrating. Yeah, yeah,

38:29

no. I I went to art school briefly in

38:31

Montreal when I was uh, you

38:33

know, in my twenties

38:36

and so so uh

38:38

yeah, I've taken that back up and and uh

38:41

and it seems to have stuck. Um.

38:43

I now draw regularly,

38:46

and we used some of the artwork in

38:48

the in the last album, but

38:50

you will be seeing more of it in

38:53

the future as well. Oh

38:55

that's so exciting. Oh my goodness,

38:57

do you have any how far I know,

39:00

probably too early to say, but how far along is

39:02

this new album?

39:04

It's almost we're mixing it right now,

39:06

this folk record. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if I'm allowed

39:09

to even announce anything, but but

39:11

it will be. I think it's going to come out around my

39:13

birthday, which is uh

39:15

and in about a year, so so there's still

39:17

time. But it's um or

39:20

or in an honor memberthday. I'll be fifty

39:22

next year, um

39:25

so so

39:27

so yeah, it's around my fifty birthday.

39:29

We're gonna we're gonna have a what

39:32

is it a picking session? Who's

39:36

a picking? Oh? My good, it's

39:38

rufous. I could talk to you all day. I my my

39:41

last question before I let you go, and it's a corny

39:43

one, but I'm genuinely curious. If

39:46

you could have a moment with Judy and

39:48

you could say one thing or what would it be.

39:51

I I think I would just say thank you for

39:55

inspiring me for so long and also

39:57

for being this um,

39:59

you know, endless um source

40:01

of fascination, both

40:03

both fascinating and inspiring. So

40:06

yeah, I just had a big thank you. We

40:11

hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio,

40:14

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40:16

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