0:01

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode

0:04

of Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio.

0:06

My name is Jordan run Tug, but enough about

0:08

me. My guest today has sold

0:10

over fifty million albums, one

0:13

nine Grammys, sung a Bond theme,

0:15

and inspired millions with her electrifying

0:17

vocals, melodic mastery and dedication

0:20

to her craft. Come on, this is the person

0:22

who gave us every day as a winding road. If

0:24

it makes you happy, strong enough, leave in Las

0:26

Vegas, soak up the sun, and of course

0:28

the immortal. All I wanna do any one

0:30

of those is enough to earn my undying love and respect

0:32

for all lifetime. She's the subject

0:35

of a new documentary on Showtime That's How Today,

0:37

called Cheryl. It explores her

0:39

incredible journey, which took her from teaching

0:41

music to school kids to sharing the stage

0:43

with Michael Jackson just a few short months

0:46

before she exploded as a musical force

0:48

in her own right with Tuesday

0:50

Night Music Club. The film

0:52

documents her battle against far too many isms,

0:55

sexism, ageism, and at times

0:57

her own perfectionism. But it's ultimately

0:59

a story about finding happiness on your own

1:02

terms. It's a Happinessue sings up

1:04

in a new song called Forever, which is included

1:06

on the album that it companies the documentary,

1:09

Inspired by your two sons. It's a

1:11

tribute to cherishing deep connections and

1:13

being truly present. I'm so

1:15

happy to welcome Cheryl Crowe. I

1:17

hope you enjoy our conversation. I

1:24

love your documentary so much. I mean, it's

1:26

like your music. It's warm, revelatory,

1:28

compelling, and just so unflinchingly

1:31

authentic and honest. It's so wonderful.

1:34

I was surprised to learn that you actually

1:36

were a little hesitant to do it at first. Why was

1:38

that, Oh, I think,

1:41

well, first and foremost, I'm a really private person.

1:43

And I also didn't

1:45

want to make a documentary that just felt like a recap

1:48

of awards, and you

1:50

know, I didn't want it to feel like a behind

1:53

the music or something like that, even though I love v

1:55

H one, so there's no knock against that, and they

1:58

actually put me on the map, but I just want it

2:00

to feel I wanted

2:02

to tell the real story, and I wanted to actually

2:04

tell the story of the person behind you

2:07

know, thirty years of living

2:10

or even longer than that, you know. But I

2:12

was hesitant because I feel like most

2:14

documentaries are made about people after they've died,

2:16

and I just thought, oh, I still have a lot of

2:19

living to do. But anyway, I gave into it and we did

2:21

it. It was so incredible,

2:23

And as you mentioned, this documentary, we'll teach people

2:25

so much about the person behind these songs that we know

2:27

and love. Did it teach you something about yourself?

2:31

Yeah? I mean, I guess in

2:33

in reflecting on all of the

2:36

life's experiences,

2:38

I really realized that a lot of what I

2:40

went through is what so many women

2:43

go through, no matter what business they're in, particularly

2:46

when you work in companies that are run mostly by

2:48

men. And and you know, there

2:50

was there's just a lot along the way

2:52

that I think probably a lot of young female

2:54

artists have experienced. And

2:57

there was something kind of liberating about being able

2:59

to tell

3:01

that story. None of these things I've I ever

3:03

talked about openly or publicly,

3:07

and even talk about getting older in my business,

3:09

which is you know, has its own set

3:11

of challenges. UM,

3:14

and to talk about mental health and UM

3:17

I learned, you know, I learned that

3:20

ultimately I wound up being the person I started

3:22

out as. UM. I went on a lot

3:24

of detours and it took me a while to

3:26

figure out how to get back. But um,

3:29

it was interesting living reliving it.

3:32

It was so interesting. And it opened with um

3:35

clips from an interview where the interview

3:37

calls you driven, which to me sounds

3:40

like a compliment. And I heard that, I thought,

3:42

But then reading more about it, seems like that

3:44

was a much more loaded phrase in in

3:46

the early to mid nineties. I thought it was an

3:48

interesting way to start the documentary. Yeah,

3:50

I mean, it still is somewhere I can remember

3:52

when um,

3:55

I think it was Kamala Harris was running for president

3:57

or maybe Amy Closure, and they called her

3:59

and bitious, She's too She's she's

4:02

too ambitious, and that's a bad

4:04

thing if you called that. If you say that

4:06

about a man, you go, yeah, he's gonna be great,

4:08

you know. And um, it

4:11

just seems to be sort of a sideways compliment.

4:13

Um. And And certainly when I

4:15

was asked, I think Steve Croft

4:17

asked me about it, it did hit me kind

4:19

of funny, like, you know, what a

4:21

horrible thing to be called driven? I

4:25

thought it came across to me as a compliment. I hadn't

4:27

realized Yeah it was.

4:29

I mean, this film is so wonderful.

4:31

Anyone listening now who hasn't seen it yet,

4:33

please pause this episode and go listen to it

4:36

or go watch it. It is absolutely amazing. One

4:38

of the most mind blowing moments of this documentary

4:40

for me was when you were hired to go

4:43

out on the Michael Jackson tour relatively

4:45

soon after arriving in Los Angeles. I mean, I've

4:47

known the story, Oh my god, I mean I've

4:49

known the story, but seeing the footage from these

4:52

shows in Tokyo in front of seventy

4:54

thousand people whatever, it was really just

4:56

put it in perspective. Did did

4:58

seeing that level of fame at that

5:01

close range and everything that comes

5:03

with it, from the craziness and you

5:05

know, intrusion, to the privilege and the adoration.

5:08

Did that alter your musical goals in any

5:10

way? Was it

5:12

like, oh my gosh, I maybe I don't want this

5:15

type of thing, or there was it the opposite.

5:17

Did it Did it inspire you to be not to

5:19

use that word ambitious? Yeah? You

5:21

know what it did? It made me really confused

5:24

because I was I was raised um

5:27

by too hard working and really you

5:29

know, solid

5:32

Midwestern parents, and I was raised um

5:35

with this idea that if you're a good person

5:37

and you know you do the right thing and

5:39

you work hard, that you know that's

5:42

that's what will serve you in life. And when

5:44

I got on that tour and really got a

5:46

glimpse into what how

5:50

the business works. You know the fact that large

5:52

corporations will buy or

5:55

back then this was during Paola, that they would

5:57

buy, you know, a million copies

5:59

of Michael his record, it would come out at number

6:01

one. I mean, they everything was mapped out.

6:03

I came away from it feeling like

6:06

I'm never going to be able to be a

6:09

big artist because I don't have

6:11

that machine behind me. And then also,

6:15

um to witness this

6:18

incredible artist, whether you like Michael

6:20

or you don't, after what we know about him.

6:23

Um to witness

6:25

that kind of artistry and to see

6:28

massive audiences reacting,

6:31

um like he

6:33

was the Beatles or whatever. I mean, it just was a

6:35

huge I've never seen anything like it.

6:38

I've never been out of I've barely been out of Missouri.

6:40

I mean I've only been in California for

6:43

six months. Every single

6:45

thing about that about that tour, the

6:47

eight months of it was

6:49

was life changing. And when I came home, Um,

6:52

I went back to complete um

6:57

unknown nous, no one knew who I was, and

6:59

I started waiting Tay was again. It was like I

7:01

went right back to where I was before, Like

7:04

it never happened. Wow, I mean

7:07

it must have been fitting in a sense because I think I'm right and

7:09

saying ABC was first record you

7:11

ever bought? Right, first record I ever bought

7:13

was ABC. Yeah. I have a lot of threads

7:15

in my life. Who

7:18

are some of the other artists

7:20

who sort of set you on your path? Um?

7:24

Well, growing up, you know, around

7:27

well as early as I remember, my parents played music

7:29

in the house. They were musicians. Um.

7:32

I I listened to a lot of James Taylor

7:34

and Carol King tapestry.

7:37

Um, I listened to a lot of My

7:40

parents played a lot of big band music and a lot of crooners,

7:42

so I knew all that stuff. I

7:44

grew up watching musicals

7:47

on TV like Oklahoma and

7:49

My Fair Lady and West Side Story.

7:52

But then as I got older, I gravitated

7:55

to you know, Fleetwood Mac and

7:57

the Rolling Stones, and um just

8:01

got really into rock and roll and started

8:04

to cut my teeth on that. And then when I went and saw Bonnie

8:06

Right as a teenager and saw her playing guitar. I

8:08

was like, okay, wait a minute, So you can

8:10

be a woman and you can play guitar and

8:12

you can front a band of dudes. Um,

8:16

and that's what I wanted to do. What

8:19

is the transition like going from somebody

8:21

who who appreciates music and loves

8:23

to listen to it to creating your

8:26

own and writing your own songs. I mean it's

8:28

someone like me who loves music with all of his heart

8:30

and has never been able to write a song in his life.

8:32

That's a turning point. That's always fascinating

8:34

for me. What was there a moment for you, like a light

8:36

bulb moment or was it a gradual progression.

8:39

I didn't have a life bold moment. I just had

8:41

this work ethic and and also

8:44

this. I

8:46

felt like music was a lifeline for me. I mean,

8:48

I think a lot of kids will find that thing that they

8:50

formed their identity around because being

8:52

a teenager is hard, you know. I

8:55

can't imagine being a teenager now with social

8:57

media. But um, for me, it was music,

8:59

Like I knew how to play. I

9:01

could play by ear, I could play anything I heard,

9:04

sit down at the piano and play TV Wonder

9:06

and Elton John and UM,

9:09

you know, I just knew that's how I

9:11

I saw myself, and I saw myself getting out

9:13

of my hometown, and um,

9:16

music was just a lifeline for me.

9:19

And that was the very thing that

9:22

I just gravitated

9:24

to in every way. You know, I had

9:26

no business crashing an audition

9:28

for Michael Jackson, but I just felt like, what do I have

9:30

to lose, you know, so,

9:33

UM, I just kept kept

9:35

keeping on. There

9:49

was something you said recently, I think it was on the Bobby

9:51

Bones podcast about your your

9:53

writing process and creative process, at

9:55

least for your first few albums, when I think it was Bill

9:57

Buttrell suggested that everyone played

9:59

the ttreament that wasn't their primary

10:01

one, which to me is just the coolest thing. I

10:03

mean, you're a classically trained pianist and now you're

10:05

on bass or something. I just thought that was such

10:08

an interesting method. I wanted to ask you more about

10:10

that. That way to keep a spontaneity in the creative

10:12

process. Yeah, and I really

10:14

gravitate to that now even and

10:16

I carry that with me and I learned I've learned

10:18

so much from so many people along the

10:20

way, and that is has been a really valuable

10:23

tool. And it's really the reason I wound up

10:25

playing bass, because I find myself playing writing

10:28

melodies over bass lines, which

10:31

kept me from just playing the same chord progressions

10:34

because as a piano player, you know, you get

10:36

comfortable, you know what sounds good, and

10:38

I would I would think melody and

10:41

lyric and just play the

10:43

route, and then I

10:46

would try to have somebody else come in and play the bass part

10:48

and be like, no, that doesn't feel right, so I wouldn't be

10:50

in the bass player right and that

10:53

that was just such a great way to approach

10:56

record making, was by like

10:58

what can what can I do that has have been done before?

11:01

And um and I still try to

11:03

do that. That is so cool.

11:05

You're one of my my bass playing heroes.

11:07

I I loved you and I've I've

11:09

really rarely heard of people writing on the base.

11:12

I think that's the coolest thing that you use that as

11:14

as your your muse, your starting point. Yeah,

11:17

it's been really I mean, I have this one guitar. It's

11:19

an acoustic guitar. It's this nineteen sixty

11:21

four country and Western that we

11:23

call the Little money Maker because most of the songs

11:26

that I've made money off of have been written on

11:28

that, but um, starting about the Globe

11:30

sessions, I started writing on base and

11:33

wrote my favorite mistake on base and

11:35

wrote, I mean there's a lot of myself

11:38

that was written on base, and um,

11:40

yeah, it's it keeps me from

11:42

being schlocky, I think. I

11:45

mean, speaking of the Little money Maker, I

11:47

was gonna ask you, is there an element of I

11:50

hate to use this word, but superstition in

11:52

your songwriting? I mean a certain instrument, a certain

11:54

room, a certain time of day, a certain t

11:57

that you drink before you start. Is there an element

11:59

just to kind of that gets you in

12:01

in the zone, for lack of a better term, for

12:03

when you start. It's been a really funny

12:07

um progression for me.

12:10

In the old days, we would never

12:12

record before like you

12:15

know, six at night. We generally

12:17

in the old days, I would walk in and just

12:19

have like a couple of lines for a song, or

12:22

have a couple of ideas or whatever, and we

12:24

would you know, go out and run

12:26

around New Orleans or wherever we're recording

12:29

New York. We come back after dinner, we drink

12:31

some beer or some wine, and you

12:33

start recording about ten and then we'd

12:35

go to like four in the morning, you know, it would be crazy.

12:38

And something in my mind

12:40

was like, well, I can't write a great song

12:42

unless I've had some wine and it's like the middle of the night

12:44

or whatever. My last few records

12:47

I've written between school drop

12:49

off and school pick up, and I am

12:51

so inspired. So I don't know. I

12:53

think. I think once you get

12:56

that that thing out

12:58

of your head that tells you this is the way

13:00

it's got to be, you can write

13:03

anywhere just by

13:05

sitting quiet, picking up a base

13:07

or a great instrument, and just seeing

13:10

what happens. Do you find

13:12

that that the best songs are the ones

13:14

that are most effortless, ones that kind of come

13:16

with the fastest. Yeah, I think the ones

13:18

that are the most anointed are

13:21

the ones that kind of come out of nowhere. And then

13:23

there are those songs that are good songs that

13:25

you've crafted because you know how to craft

13:27

a song. But I've had a few

13:29

songs in my career that came out

13:31

of nowhere that weren't even typical of

13:33

how I write um

13:35

that I feel like are just the gifts

13:38

that you are eternally

13:41

humbled by. What

13:44

are some of those or any to come to mind. Yeah,

13:46

I mean Redemption Day is definitely one of those

13:48

that that was the song that um

13:51

came off the heels of my going and playing for the

13:53

troops in Bosnia and I

13:55

came home because I I split up

13:57

with a relationship that I thought

13:59

was kind of a forever relationship and was

14:01

going to you know, right from the heart, and I

14:03

just couldn't get anywhere with it. So I put my guitar

14:06

down and opened my computer and suddenly

14:09

I've written seven or eight stanzas, which

14:11

is not really how I write. I don't usually

14:14

embrace or even adopt that

14:17

Bob Dylan cadence. But it just came out

14:19

of nowhere as if it was it

14:21

needed to be written, and then ultimately

14:24

Johnny Cash wound up recording

14:26

it. So it just goes to show you that music

14:29

is just it's not definable.

14:31

Inspiration is not definable. Um,

14:34

it's from some other cosmic

14:37

space, you know, It's just it's

14:39

a gift. Yeah,

14:41

I wanted to ask you about

14:44

I'm so fascinated by the notion of rules

14:46

in the songwriting because I'm just that line between

14:49

rules and raw creativity, and

14:51

and you've spoken about how you know listening

14:53

to people like Burt back Rack, is it

14:55

just you know that that's a great teacher right there,

14:57

just listening to stuff. How important

15:00

our rules in the songwriting? Is

15:02

that the kind of thing that you need to know in order to break

15:04

them. It's funny

15:07

when I went to college, I got my degree in classical

15:09

piano, and

15:11

you had to take a composition class,

15:13

and they're all these rules, like you can never use um

15:17

parallel fists. And now

15:20

it's all these um

15:22

all these rules that are basically

15:24

meant to be broken if you're

15:26

truly tapping into art. And I do feel

15:28

that way about songwriting, although

15:32

I think there's something really beautiful, and

15:35

I tell this to young artists all the time. One

15:38

of the greatest things you can ever do is get in a

15:40

cover band, because even

15:43

by osmosis, you

15:46

you are exposed to what makes music,

15:50

what makes styles, what makes a great

15:52

pop sound great. And

15:55

for me having grown up in cover bands

15:58

and for me learning

16:00

how to sing like I mean, being in car bands

16:02

and having to sing like Shaka Khan, now

16:04

you're gonna sound like Chrissy Hin. Now you're

16:07

knowing how to manipulate the voice. All those things

16:09

are really powerful

16:11

when you sit down to try to figure out who you are,

16:13

and you're able to pull from these influences.

16:17

Um. I I find it to be really

16:19

helpful. Um. I

16:21

mean, I can listen to a bird Back erect song

16:24

and I will ultimately if I sit

16:26

down and start playing, I

16:28

will write something that's

16:30

a little bit different than if I've just

16:33

listened to an Eagle song or and

16:35

neither one of them less important

16:38

than the other. That's

16:40

so interesting. I never thought of it that way. Almost reverse

16:42

engineering these, you know, these hits

16:44

if you're in a cover band, to kind of see what

16:46

what what works? Yeah, I mean, and it's great,

16:49

you know, it's great to know why. Um

16:51

you know, uh,

16:54

James Jamerson Baseline can suddenly

16:56

make a

16:58

a song fly out of the radio

17:01

and last for fifty years, you know. And

17:03

those are the things that if you're lucky and

17:05

ever get one of those, um,

17:08

you know, you can retire happy.

17:26

What is your relationship like to music today?

17:28

Is it is it a daily practice like some people

17:30

do yoga and some people jog, or is it

17:32

something that you do only when you feel moved

17:34

and feel as though you know you have something to

17:36

say? Um?

17:40

Well, it's it's been different recently

17:43

because when the pandemic happened,

17:46

I had so much free time and it was it

17:49

was beautiful free time. I mean, i'd feel

17:51

a little guilty saying that, but I didn't

17:54

have that pole like, oh my gosh, everybody else

17:56

was touring. I should be out there touring. Nobody was touring,

17:59

and to be able to just it down and play

18:01

and have the luxury of getting

18:04

back into just loving music, playing

18:06

other people's songs, and

18:08

um, I've gotten

18:10

more. I just I will more likely go

18:13

sit at the piano or pick up my guitar now

18:15

and just play for the fun of it

18:17

than I have in years. And it feels

18:19

so great. And my kids when

18:21

I first started doing that and practicing, I mean

18:24

I started actually practice practicing my own

18:26

material so I could do virtual

18:29

concerts. They're like, what are you doing?

18:31

And I said, well, I'm practicing, and they're like, why

18:33

are you practicing? You already know how to play.

18:36

And I'm like, because practice makes

18:38

you better, you know, and that, and because

18:40

I love it, and it's the reason that I

18:42

do it is because it's it's the thing

18:44

I left first, and so it's good for them

18:46

to see that as well. Um,

18:48

but yeah, I do write when

18:51

I'm I'm inspired, but I also write when

18:53

I'm not inspired, and sometimes good songs come out

18:55

of that. Wow. I mean

18:57

that's the craft I guess too, when you can sit

19:00

down and make a song even

19:02

where there was once nothing, You you get up

19:04

from your desk later and there's something right there. Yeah,

19:06

And that's the great motivating factor is

19:08

that you there's

19:11

there's always that possibility that you'll

19:13

come out with something that you've never written

19:15

before, and it it makes you feel

19:19

I think a really interesting

19:21

example of that. I was a huge

19:23

fan of the Beatles Get Back documentary

19:25

and to see them. I think I heard

19:28

you say that that watching the band

19:30

sit down trying to come up with stuff

19:32

on the spot and really for

19:34

a lot of it fail. Uh, changed

19:37

your relationship to music in a certain

19:39

way. I think was something that I think walking

19:42

that just blew my mind. I mean, I think,

19:46

um, well, first and foremost, there was so much, so

19:48

much lore about who they were and

19:51

how they broke up and all that, and you witnessed

19:53

these friends, I mean,

19:55

and and not just friends, but

19:57

like, um, they

19:59

were like blunkers. I mean they

20:02

literally were like discovering

20:05

and creating music

20:08

that has been

20:10

the springboard for all of us. And

20:14

and to witness the incredible

20:16

talent. I mean even when they were

20:18

jamming up those songs that ultimately

20:21

wound up on the Wide album and Abbey Road

20:23

and Let It Be, Um,

20:26

just the incredible musicianship. I

20:28

was so inspired, um

20:31

by that documentary

20:33

that I went up watching the third one twice and then

20:36

went up going in the studio and writing this song called

20:38

Forever with my buddy Jeff.

20:40

That is right from

20:43

you know, the Yesterday Handbook

20:46

or the Blackbird Handbook

20:48

of just vulnerability. That

20:51

song I was going to ask you about that, your song Forever.

20:53

I found it difficult to listen

20:55

to and watch the video without getting choked up.

20:57

I thought it was so truemendously

21:00

moving, such a touching piece of music.

21:03

I wanted to ask you more about that. Obviously,

21:05

much of your your your sons are in

21:07

there. Um.

21:10

Then they've never been I've never

21:12

let him be a part of mine social

21:14

media platform.

21:15

I've always felt like they

21:18

need to be shielded from that because they

21:21

deserve the right to just be kids and not

21:23

be famous. Um.

21:26

But that song was was the

21:28

result of my fifteen year old to me home and talking

21:30

about this stress that he experiences at school

21:32

and some of his friends experience. And man,

21:36

kids today experience

21:38

so much more stress than we did. I mean

21:40

we they're worrying about the big stuff, like

21:42

whether the planet is gonna not

21:44

sustain us. I mean, they're worried about things that

21:47

would never have been in

21:49

my mind. I would be worried about whether

21:51

I got asked to the eighth grade dance. You know that

21:54

that that was the kind of worry we had, and um

21:58

so that that was the impetus for that song and

22:00

the inspiration for it.

22:02

It's an incredible track. It's on the

22:05

album that's accompanying the documentary. There's a few

22:07

new songs on it. I also love. But

22:09

this Way Let It Bleed is one of my favorite

22:11

Stones albums ever. Your version of

22:14

Live with Me, Oh it rocks.

22:16

It's so great. What led you to record that track?

22:18

It's so awesome? Well, you know, it's we

22:21

It's in the documentary and it was the very

22:24

first thing I ever got to play with the Rolling Stones. And

22:26

man they have been I

22:30

mean they're the bedrock for me of I

22:33

mean, if it weren't for them, there'd be now Sheryl

22:35

Crow for sure, and

22:37

um, so we thought this would be fun. It's in the

22:39

movie. Let's do a cover. Let's do our

22:41

version of their song, which

22:44

is a crazy task in and of itself.

22:46

And then and the when we were done, I thought,

22:48

you know what, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna

22:50

text Mick and just see if he might play

22:53

harp on it. I mean, the fact that I could even text

22:55

him, that I even have his number is makes

22:57

my head one to explode right now. But and

22:59

he's said yes, and he's like, send it on and he

23:01

did it, and there it is, and it's doing really

23:04

well from what I understand.

23:06

So, um,

23:08

it's you know, it's it's so much

23:10

fun, and it's such a cool

23:14

it's such a cool song, and it's so much it's

23:16

just a cool thing. I'm

23:18

so stoked. It's so great.

23:21

You're finally gearing up to to head on the

23:23

road again, finally, I mean this that's got to

23:25

just feel so good. And the

23:27

boys coming to I know, they've got had some

23:29

special guest spots in the past. They

23:33

always come with me, and I think at which point

23:35

they don't want to come anymore. I'll definitely

23:37

slow down. I asked him all that time, do you want me to retire?

23:39

Get me stawn home? And They're like, no,

23:41

no, no, we love going on the road. We love it,

23:44

and but I think at some point girls

23:46

are going to enter the picture and going

23:48

out on the road with mom is not gonna be as much fun.

23:51

But we're excited about

23:53

it. I mean, it's been a couple of years that have been really

23:56

for everybody, really hard to sit

23:58

on your hands and to watch people that you love

24:00

not be able to work, and so

24:03

um, yeah, we're super

24:06

superside. Sure.

24:09

I can't wait to see you out there. So thank

24:11

you so much for your time

24:13

today, and most importantly, thank you for your music. It's

24:15

given me and so many people I love so much

24:17

joy over the years. You were the best. Thank you. Oh my gosh,

24:20

Jordan, thank you for having me on. We

24:25

hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio,

24:28

a production of I Heart Radio. For

24:30

more episodes of Inside the Studio or other

24:32

fantastic shows, check out the I Heart

24:34

Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

24:36

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