0:00

All right here today with Steve Magnus, I'm

0:03

really excited about this one mate. Good

0:05

to know you and pleasure to meet

0:07

you. Yeah, thanks for having me, Brad. Really

0:09

excited about this too. Yeah, now

0:11

listen, you got a new book out

0:13

called Win the Inside Game. You've got

0:16

multiple books and they're all excellent. I

0:18

really caught a hold of you on

0:20

Instagram and I was just talking about

0:22

this, like your Instagram and your Twitter,

0:24

your X. I mean you put out

0:26

such great stuff, I think it's the

0:28

best stuff on the internet in terms

0:30

of... performance science and just somebody that

0:33

is just gives you just quality information

0:35

and nuggets to take away and

0:37

think about and learn from and

0:39

just high quality stuff. You're putting

0:41

out really good stuff. Thanks. I

0:43

appreciate that. I think that the

0:45

internet is sometimes a crazy place

0:47

with especially in our line of

0:49

work, a lot of a lot

0:51

of wild stuff. So I'm just trying

0:53

to do my my small part in

0:55

my small corner of internet. give stuff

0:58

people that or give people stuff that

1:00

you know actually works and has some

1:02

backing behind it. Once in your lifetime, and

1:04

I'm sure you still do it a lot,

1:06

but you were coaching just as I was

1:08

coaching, but you took a turn at some

1:10

point where you realize like I've got such

1:12

quality information, I want to put it together,

1:15

I want to organize it, I want to

1:17

start to get it out to the world.

1:19

What was that? transformation

1:21

for you. Have you always been kind

1:23

of on that side of the fence

1:25

where you've wanted to put out information

1:28

at the same time as learning yourself?

1:30

You know, I have to agree. I

1:32

mean, I love coaching. I mean, for

1:35

the longest time coaching was the only

1:37

thing I was interested in. Right. But

1:39

I've always had this interest

1:41

of I see myself as more

1:43

of like exploring ideas and concepts

1:45

in different fields. And I think

1:47

part of that exploration is like

1:49

sharing it with others. I never

1:52

saw myself as someone who's going

1:54

to be like the coach who

1:56

just kind of like hides away,

1:58

emerges at the meet like athletes. or

2:00

don't perform and like you have

2:02

no idea who that coaches or

2:04

what they do or what their philosophy

2:06

is because I think we lose

2:08

a little bit of that stuff

2:10

because you know I'm a big big

2:12

fan of looking at like the

2:14

history of sport and history of

2:16

training and as I reflect on the

2:19

coaches for instance that I've learned

2:21

the most from even. you know,

2:23

my background is running, but even in

2:25

swimming, like councilmen and like Lisko

2:27

and all these guys, is, is this

2:29

the people who shared? Yeah. And

2:32

they, maybe they didn't get everything

2:34

right, but because of their sharing. We

2:36

now are in a much better

2:38

place where we can like evolve

2:40

or learn from their mistakes or evolve

2:42

from the things that they did

2:44

well And I think we're just

2:46

kind of another piece in that that

2:49

that cog where we've got to

2:51

keep that that information flowing and

2:53

that evolution of Inside in training and

2:55

things out performance going as well

2:57

Yeah, well you've done an epic job

2:59

that I wrote down some of

3:01

your books here the latest one

3:03

is win the inside game we'll talk

3:06

about that the other ones, some

3:08

of the other ones, do hard

3:10

things, peak performance and you've also got

3:12

the science of running. Now I

3:14

just put out science of swimming

3:16

a couple of days ago it came

3:18

out so you and I have

3:20

something relatable there, you put out the

3:23

science of running and that's kind

3:25

of your your background but make

3:27

good stuff like just it feels good

3:29

to put a book out doesn't

3:31

it? It's my first like I

3:33

said but it just feels good to

3:35

have something out there that's yours

3:37

that you can stand behind you

3:39

can stand behind you know? Yeah, congrats

3:42

on that. I'm going to have

3:44

to check it out. As I said,

3:46

I'm not a swimmer whatsoever, but

3:48

I love reading about swimming science

3:50

and training because there's so much transfer

3:53

to other sports. But you're spot

3:55

on. And I think, I think

3:57

actually, you know, one of the reasons

3:59

it feels good and we've talked

4:01

about social media a little bit,

4:03

but a book is like doing the,

4:05

it's hard. you know this, like

4:07

it takes effort in time and you

4:10

wrestle with it for a long

4:12

time. And I think much like

4:14

training for an event, like that work

4:16

elevates it. So it has this

4:18

kind of lasting appeal, even if

4:20

you didn't get everything 100% how you

4:22

wanted, it has this lasting appeal

4:24

because like you spent time doing

4:26

the thing. And in a world where

4:29

I think on social media often,

4:31

like, you know, you put out a

4:33

tweet or Instagram post and it

4:35

does well today, but it's forgotten

4:37

in a couple days, right? I think

4:39

there's something too, like something, like

4:41

putting out a book, putting a

4:43

planning of a flag in the sand

4:46

and being like, hey, here are

4:48

my thoughts on this and here's

4:50

what I think. And I think that's.

4:52

That's something that's desperately needed in

4:54

a world where we're kind of

4:56

like short-term entertainment all the time. Yeah.

4:58

One of your books is do

5:00

hard things and this is the hardest

5:03

thing I've done right? Like writing

5:05

the book on do hard things

5:07

I can imagine is the hardest is

5:09

hard. But yeah, like writing a

5:11

book on the science of swimming

5:13

is, you know, they came to me

5:16

and suggested, I thought, oh, that

5:18

won't be too difficult, that'll be

5:20

okay. And then as I got into

5:22

it and into the weeds, and

5:24

it was just, I can't get to

5:26

it today. I can't do it

5:28

today. I just got nothing. I'm

5:30

just, so it's just like this roller

5:33

coaster of just this year of

5:35

work. And lucky I had people

5:37

around me kind of pushing me and

5:39

challenging me, but there were days

5:41

where it was hard. And it's

5:43

really difficult. And like you said, you

5:45

know, I look back on it

5:47

and I think, well, I could have

5:50

put this in, I could have

5:52

put that in. It's just like.

5:54

you know what like you've got to

5:56

do you just got to do

5:58

it you know that that was

6:00

the thing that i learned the most

6:02

is just just do it right

6:04

and you can you can assess

6:06

later you can always come back and

6:09

do something else but just doing

6:11

it is the most difficult thing is

6:13

just getting it done, you know?

6:15

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm right there

6:17

with you. I've written a lot of

6:19

books, but every single one I

6:21

reach a point where I'm just

6:23

like, holy crap, like this, this, like,

6:26

am I gonna get this thing

6:28

finished? Does this even make sense?

6:30

Like, am I coherent? and there's other

6:32

days as you said where it

6:34

just flows and you're like I'm a

6:37

genius this is all great but

6:39

but that's point I think that's

6:41

the point is like you got to

6:43

go through the struggle to get

6:45

out to the other end where

6:47

it's like something that's quality and hopefully

6:49

impactful to others yeah well I've

6:51

come back to coaching and I'm

6:53

coaching a club team of swimmers and

6:56

and right now I've got about

6:58

12 athletes that I'm directly coaching and

7:00

they age between 12 to kind

7:02

of 16. And we went to

7:04

our first mid-season meet just this weekend

7:06

in Vegas. And I've got to

7:08

tell you, it wasn't about the

7:10

physical, it was all about the mental.

7:13

I've got so many examples of

7:15

where we kind of hit these

7:17

mental barriers during this meet that I

7:19

want to kind of talk to

7:21

you about, but your book win

7:23

the inside game. What was the... the

7:25

genesis of that? Why do you

7:27

want to go into that yourself and

7:30

talk to us about the book

7:32

itself? Yeah, I mean, I think

7:34

it's just like what you said there

7:36

is my background is exercise physiology,

7:38

it's where my undergrad, my master's

7:40

is in, that's what my interest in.

7:42

It's what I was good at

7:44

as coaching, I think, like the

7:46

science has said, like the workout design,

7:49

but then you get into the

7:51

coaching side and you're like, holy crap,

7:53

you know. I've got to figure

7:55

out all these different, like mental

7:57

issues, problems, barriers, blockades, etc. that arise.

8:00

And so much of it is,

8:02

like, how do I get this

8:04

athlete to translate from, you know, they're

8:06

physically ready, but then get them

8:08

to show up when it matters

8:10

most. from a coaching standpoint, I've always,

8:12

you know, it's pushed me to

8:14

kind of like learn and understand that

8:17

area and really go deep on

8:19

it. And I think the book

8:21

was kind of a genesis of both

8:23

in my coaching life and then

8:25

also in that period where I

8:27

was like stepping away from coaching and

8:29

going more towards this writing, this

8:31

information sharing, you know, which was

8:33

a big departure for me. And in

8:36

part of that I think I

8:38

struggled on you know the mental side

8:40

because like for so long I

8:42

had you know this identity around

8:44

you know running and performance and coaching

8:46

runners and like doing it at

8:48

a decent level and and that's

8:50

what I was known for that's what

8:53

I was good at and to

8:55

step away from that really kind

8:57

of challenged me because all the sudden

8:59

I'm doing this writing thing and

9:01

I'm like you know not necessarily known

9:03

as a writer. If you talk

9:05

to, if you talk to high

9:07

school Steve, you would have been like,

9:10

what the hell are you doing?

9:12

Writing books? Like, you can't do

9:14

that. And I think it was a

9:16

little of me kind of wrestling

9:18

with both inside the sports world

9:20

and then outside of it. It's like,

9:23

okay, like, you know, how do

9:25

you, how do you make sense

9:27

of this? How do you still, you

9:29

know, you know, show up, even

9:31

though you're kind of making this transformation.

9:33

professional or career identity. Yeah, exactly.

9:35

I can relate to all that

9:37

completely. And I'm the same, right? Like

9:40

I barely read a book in

9:42

high school. So it's a thing

9:44

that I could write one. But yeah,

9:46

it's awesome. And I think as

9:48

you go on, you garner these

9:50

experiences and knowledge and you're around great

9:52

people and they're teaching you things

9:54

and you're learning as you're going, I

9:57

wanted something. where people could come

9:59

and just get quality information and

10:01

then and use that as maybe talking

10:03

points like just like this podcast

10:05

right I mean that's and that's

10:07

what you do too. I know. Let's

10:09

get specific then because I know

10:11

people love specific so I want

10:13

to talk to you about some specific

10:16

things. First of all how how

10:18

important is the brain to the body

10:20

right in terms of performance and

10:22

and how does it relate because

10:24

a lot of kids as they're learning

10:26

think that it's it's about just

10:28

about their body like if my

10:30

body's ready if I've trained physically then

10:33

I'll go out and get the

10:35

performance, but they overlook the mental

10:37

side because maybe they don't know and

10:39

they haven't had that experience, but

10:41

they don't really put two and two

10:44

together. So how can we connect

10:46

the two to understanding how important

10:48

the brain is? Yeah, that's such a

10:50

good question. I think it's your

10:52

spot on there in that assessment.

10:54

And the way I like to look

10:56

at it is the brain is

10:58

are kind of like... sense making

11:00

machine that is predictive. And what I

11:03

mean by that is at any

11:05

given moment, and especially in performance situations,

11:07

our brain is taking in information

11:09

from our body, how our legs

11:11

feel, you know, are they responsive and

11:13

poppy, how our energy levels are,

11:15

etc. And it's using that to

11:17

essentially decide, you know, what should I

11:20

do in this competition or situation?

11:22

And the lesson I always tell

11:24

athletes especially is how far you can

11:26

go into the well isn't determined

11:28

by your body. So it partially

11:30

is because that's feeding you the information,

11:32

right? The more mitochondria you have,

11:34

maybe the better you can perform aerobically,

11:37

etc., etc., etc. All that signed

11:39

stuff. But your brain makes the

11:41

ultimate decision, right? On where we go.

11:43

I like to use the analogy

11:45

of it's like when you're driving

11:47

a car. and you have that that

11:49

that gas light that comes on

11:51

that warns you like hey you're

11:53

on empty or sometimes it literally tells

11:56

you you're about you have like

11:58

zero miles left to go. In

12:01

this case, we can always go

12:03

further, right? Because the engineers designed

12:05

that gas light because we're dumb

12:07

humans to come on earlier than

12:09

like when we actually hit zero

12:11

or when the gas gauge hit

12:13

zero, we always have a little

12:15

bit more a gas in the

12:17

tank. It's just we don't know.

12:20

And the only way to find

12:22

out is to keep driving until

12:24

you run out of gas. And

12:26

the human body, it's very similar

12:28

in the sense that. The feeling

12:30

of fatigue is essentially that gas

12:32

light turning on where our brain

12:34

goes like, hey, you're running close

12:36

to empty, you're getting close to

12:38

empty. And the pain, the fatigue,

12:40

all of that we feel is

12:43

just telling us we're getting closer

12:45

and closer. But how close we

12:47

actually get is again our brain's

12:49

prediction. It's our calculation of it

12:51

saying like, how close can I

12:53

get to empty given the current

12:55

situation? meaning how motivated the athlete

12:57

is, how important the conversation is,

12:59

how confident they are, like all

13:01

these signals and then the signals

13:03

coming from the body, you know,

13:06

all our fatigue, signals, how much

13:08

glycogens left in the muscle, etc.

13:10

And our brain is saying, okay,

13:12

I'm gonna let you get a

13:14

little closer to empty because this

13:16

is the national championship or the

13:18

Olympic trials. Or this is an

13:20

early season meet. I'm not letting

13:22

you get that close. So when

13:24

we look at it like that

13:26

like that. And we know this,

13:29

I should step back and say,

13:31

scientists have studied this. So for

13:33

instance, when you look at marathoners,

13:35

elite marathoners, we're talking the guys

13:37

who are running two hours and

13:39

change. At the end of their

13:41

marathon, they still have fuel in

13:43

the tank. If you took a

13:45

muscle biopsy of their leg after

13:47

the marathon, there is still plenty

13:49

of glycogen in there. Even if

13:52

they bonked or hit the wall

13:54

in the closing miles. The reason

13:56

is because our brain's not stupid.

13:58

If it let us really completely

14:00

run out of glycogen... we'd be

14:02

in literally like life or death

14:04

danger, right? There's no more fuel

14:06

in the take. How are we

14:08

going to move, walk, etc. So

14:10

it stops us early. It's just

14:12

how close we get is dependent

14:15

on all these factors. And I

14:17

think from a psychological side, I

14:19

guess what I'd sum up as

14:21

saying is like, you have some

14:23

say into that if you work

14:25

on the mental game. if you

14:27

work on your confidence, if you

14:29

look at how you approach competition,

14:31

etc. One, I know I'm going

14:33

on here, but I want to

14:35

give one other example to really

14:38

drive this home, is there's some

14:40

wonderful research that has looked at

14:42

our response to competitions, like a

14:44

swimming match or a track meter

14:46

or what have you. And what

14:48

they found is that our stress

14:50

response can go basically one of

14:52

a couple ways, but we can

14:54

simplify it. we can either see

14:56

it as a threat, and when

14:58

our brain thinks it's a threat,

15:01

meaning I'm lining up for the

15:03

race, I'm about to start, I'm

15:05

about to go into the water,

15:07

and my brain goes, like, you're

15:09

not ready for this, you're going

15:11

to get beat, you're overwhelmed. When

15:13

that happens, we release more cortisol,

15:15

which is stress hormone, okay? And

15:17

we release less, and often, our

15:19

testosterone goes down. And what happens

15:21

in that state is that's kind

15:24

of our brain telling our body,

15:26

run away, hide, avoid. And our

15:28

body listens. It says, you know

15:30

what, I'm not gonna go as

15:32

far into the well, because like,

15:34

I'm just gonna shut down and

15:36

protect myself early because this is

15:38

a threat. It's kind of linked

15:40

back to when we're on the

15:42

savanna and we see, I don't

15:44

know a lion and it's like,

15:47

run away or like play dead,

15:49

right? But opposite of that, and

15:51

research has found that we can

15:53

have a challenge response, which is

15:55

instead of cortisol, we get more

15:57

adrenaline. Instead of our testosterone going

15:59

down, It goes up and we

16:01

feel more aggressive and willing

16:04

to take responsible risks. And

16:06

again, what research tends to show

16:08

us is in that challenge state

16:11

that stress hormones are sending

16:13

a signal that says like, hey,

16:15

let's go fight the lion or like,

16:17

let's take on this race. In which

16:19

way we go is again, it comes

16:21

back to the information

16:23

that our brain has the information that

16:26

we have on the mental side. Do

16:28

you see this? Have you done the

16:30

work? Have you put in the miles?

16:32

Have you put in the yards? Are

16:34

you confident you can take this raise

16:36

on? Are you seeing this as, hey,

16:39

I'm gonna see what I can do

16:41

and try and play to win

16:43

versus I'm just gonna play prevent

16:45

defense and try not to get

16:47

embarrassed and lost? All of those

16:50

signals and information comes in to

16:52

determine which way we go in

16:54

terms of our stress response, which

16:57

then impacts. You know, what our

16:59

body can give in terms of

17:01

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swim practice. That interests

17:26

me, you know, like going deeper on

17:28

that. What what does happen to

17:30

the body, right? When you have

17:32

a response like that, I'll give

17:34

you a couple of examples. The

17:36

first example I'll give is that,

17:38

you know, in swimming, same as track,

17:41

right, you may do some, you

17:43

may do multiple events, right, but

17:45

you have that one event that

17:47

you identify with, right? That's my

17:49

event. That's the one that I. That's

17:51

my baby, you know, that's the one I want

17:54

to do the best in, right? And so expectations

17:56

rise a little bit and people all around you

17:58

are kind of looking at you. like now's

18:00

the one they're gonna get this

18:02

one right and so you want

18:04

it so badly that you you

18:06

try a little too hard right

18:09

like you force it and you

18:11

put pressure on it. And then

18:13

that has a physical response, right?

18:15

Like when you force something, then

18:17

you kind of hit a wall

18:19

and it shuts the body down

18:21

and then you start questioning all

18:23

the training that you've done, right?

18:25

And the work that you've put

18:27

in, like I didn't work hard

18:29

enough, I'm not fitting on that.

18:32

My explanation is no, you just

18:34

you just tried too hard there

18:36

and the body shut down and

18:38

you've had this response, you know,

18:40

and the kids just can't fully

18:42

understand what happens there. So can

18:44

you explain that a little bit.

18:46

Yeah, absolutely. There's there's a sweet

18:48

spot, right, is when we're trying,

18:50

we have this idea often that

18:53

to go faster in the pool,

18:55

we have to try harder to

18:57

run faster in the track, we

18:59

have to try harder. And what

19:01

often happens is we go from

19:03

the sweet spot of giving effort

19:05

towards things are productive to we

19:07

just kind of give overall effort,

19:09

which makes it where we move

19:11

from things that are productive to

19:13

things that get in our way.

19:16

So on the track, and in

19:18

swimming, you can see it, right?

19:20

You see the athlete who tenses

19:22

up, their shoulders literally get tight,

19:24

and you can tell they're trying.

19:26

Often their face gets tight too,

19:28

especially if you look at watch

19:30

world-class sprinters, for instance. You know,

19:32

Usain Bolt was famous for looking

19:34

relaxed. well he was going whatever

19:36

it was 27 miles an hour

19:39

you know insane he's putting so

19:41

much force into the ground but

19:43

his cheeks are bouncing back up

19:45

and down you know sometimes he

19:47

literally was smiling at the end

19:49

of the race and you're like

19:51

what's going on here it's because

19:53

he's he's hit that sweet spot

19:55

where he's giving effort towards the

19:57

thing but not too much where

20:00

he's tensing up and and that's

20:02

exactly what happens there and in

20:04

this case is that we have

20:06

the wrong idea of trying. One

20:08

of my coaching mentors, Tom Teles,

20:10

who coached Carl Lewis and Leroy

20:12

Burrell and all these wonderful world-class

20:14

track sprinters, put it to me

20:16

like this once. He said, and

20:18

I'm paraphrasing, but he said essentially,

20:20

we have the wrong conceptualization of

20:23

effort. We think it should be

20:25

loud, but it's actually soft. And

20:27

what he meant by that is

20:29

he would take athletes, even the

20:31

world class ones, and he would

20:33

say, hey, I want you to

20:35

run 100 meters and I want

20:37

you to do it at, you

20:39

know, just pull a number out,

20:41

15 seconds. And then he'd say,

20:43

okay, now we're in at 14

20:46

five. Now we're on one at

20:48

14. They do that a couple

20:50

times, we're just getting a little

20:52

bit faster, and he'd ask you.

20:54

It's like, how big was that

20:56

a change? And be like, not

20:58

that big, you know, you know,

21:00

you know, you know, you know,

21:02

isn't that much doesn't take that

21:04

much especially for someone who's running

21:07

10 11 seconds right and he'd

21:09

be like that's the point when

21:11

you look at these incremental adjustments

21:13

we don't dig and tighten up

21:15

and try harder our arm just

21:17

goes through a slightly bigger range

21:19

of motion we put just a

21:21

little bit more force into the

21:23

ground it's not huge it's it's

21:25

small And that has always stuck

21:27

with me because from both the

21:30

physical and mental side, what you're

21:32

doing there is reconceptualizing effort from

21:34

like digging down into what is

21:36

the smallest change I need to

21:38

do to get to the next

21:40

speed adjustment I need. And I

21:42

think that is often the key

21:44

when you look at our sports

21:46

and to come back to, you

21:48

know, the gist of your question

21:51

is the reason why we... we

21:53

tighten up or shut down. Our

21:55

brain does, it's pretty simple. It's

21:57

because if you start, if you

21:59

dig and you say, oh, I'm

22:01

gonna give everything I got. And

22:03

you're not getting the. result, meaning

22:05

you didn't get that speed increase,

22:07

you're not catching the guy or

22:09

gal in the lane next to

22:11

you, your brain goes, I'm putting

22:14

in a lot here, this isn't

22:16

worth it. So it shuts down,

22:18

it saves you, because it's like,

22:20

what is the point? At any

22:22

time, at any given point, I

22:24

talked about that brain calculation, our

22:26

brain is essentially doing that calculation

22:28

of effort versus reward. If all

22:30

of a sudden, I dump a

22:32

ton of effort into that, where

22:34

I tighten up, I'm straining, etc.,

22:37

and the reward stays the same,

22:39

or it looks like it's not

22:41

getting any closer, our brain says,

22:43

what's the point? If I'm cruising

22:45

along, meaning I'm in that state

22:47

of like trying, but like relaxed

22:49

or smooth trying, then what we

22:51

see is we get a little

22:53

bit more hopeful, right? I'm in,

22:55

I'm kind of like in a

22:58

zone, I'm in a good pace,

23:00

I'm in a good rhythm, this

23:02

feels hard, but it's comfortable, I

23:04

can keep going here, and you

23:06

think, okay, I can catch that

23:08

guy next to me, or I

23:10

can make it the next 100

23:12

meters at this pace and get

23:14

that reward. So the calculation is

23:16

different, so our brain goes, keep

23:18

going man, like, let's get it,

23:21

you're feeling good, like let's go,

23:23

not straining. And that's

23:25

where you can do the extraordinary. That's

23:27

where you can do the ones and

23:29

and it feels effortless too. It feels

23:32

like you almost don't remember how you

23:34

did it and you think it felt

23:36

so easy that next time all I

23:38

got to do is try a little

23:41

bit harder and that's the problem in

23:43

that. That's the rub. And I'm sure

23:45

you've had this so many times and

23:47

I had it as a coach so

23:50

many times. So one would. have the

23:52

best race of their life and they'd

23:54

be like that felt easy if I

23:57

just tried harder I would have done

23:59

better and you're just like no no

24:01

no like don't have that concept what

24:03

did you do to put yourself in

24:06

that position this time where it worked.

24:08

We don't need to try harder. We

24:10

need to capture that feeling and say,

24:12

okay, this time, you know, I found

24:15

that sweet spot and like I didn't

24:17

strain to get there. That's what we

24:19

need to repeat. And if you repeat

24:21

that, like things will click and, you

24:24

know, a good performance will come. So

24:26

how do we get into that mental

24:28

sweet spot when expectations eject up? when

24:31

you're feeling fresh, right? And so you

24:33

think to yourself, oh, I can try

24:35

really hard here because I feel pretty

24:37

good. And this is my event. I

24:40

identify with this one. This is where,

24:42

this is my baby. How do you

24:44

pull back from that? Because I've actually

24:46

experienced this. I've swam in the Olympic

24:49

final, right? And I'll give you my

24:51

own example here. When I swam the

24:53

semifinal, I didn't swim as well as

24:55

I wanted to in the in the...

24:58

pre-limbs right and but I made it

25:00

to the semi-final so I made top

25:02

16 at the Olympics in the world

25:05

and I thought to myself I'm not

25:07

in the position I want to be

25:09

in forget it I'm not gonna I'm

25:11

not gonna win the Olympics this time

25:14

around whatever just go out there and

25:16

swim right and I had this idea

25:18

of just let it go in the

25:20

semi-final and I went out there and

25:23

swam my fastest swim in my life

25:25

or I broke the Australian record qualified

25:27

second for the Olympic final in this

25:30

is in 2004 and and I had

25:32

this moment of like wow that was

25:34

so easy if I just try a

25:36

little harder in the final I might

25:39

be able to win this thing right

25:41

like the natural response that that athletes

25:43

have now now through experience I knew

25:45

I didn't I didn't need to try

25:48

that much harder but all of a

25:50

sudden it became realistic that I could

25:52

win this thing whereas before you know

25:54

a couple hours before I had no

25:57

chance like I was just swimming to

25:59

swim. and I let it go and

26:01

it felt amazing couldn't remember a single

26:04

stroke then I get into the final

26:06

and I put a little bit of

26:08

pressure on that thing and it and

26:10

it hurts a little and I'm not

26:13

it's not flowing as well ultimately I

26:15

don't win the race I finished six

26:17

but But that's where it is, you

26:19

know, it's that fine line. So what

26:22

would I tell myself then if I

26:24

was to go back having that, you

26:26

know, response in the semifinal, how could

26:28

I have done that better myself in

26:31

the final? Oh man, you're asking me

26:33

an impossible question, but here we go.

26:35

I think I want to highlight a

26:38

couple things first is that your experience

26:40

is, you know, thanks for sharing it.

26:42

It's what I tend to see the

26:44

most. Yeah. I did too, by the

26:47

way. Yeah, something allows the athlete to

26:49

like, you know, let it go to

26:51

free themselves up. And once they're freed

26:53

up, they're allowed to perform. I think

26:56

the tricky part is like figuring out,

26:58

okay, how do we get to the

27:00

person in that place? Especially when the

27:03

pressure is just blinding us in the

27:05

face, right? An Olympic final? Like you

27:07

can't be like, oh, there's no pressure

27:09

here, like I'm just gonna. It's obvious.

27:12

And I think that that's number one

27:14

is I think when we look at

27:16

the pressure is like you just got

27:18

to accept that certain situations are going

27:21

to bring pressure, whether that's Olympic final,

27:23

a state championship or whatever is a

27:25

big deal for you. Except that it

27:27

is. I think the other part is

27:30

in your situation, I think this is

27:32

where I love after something like that

27:34

that really good race occurs. is I

27:37

just like a quick reflection of like,

27:39

okay, how did this go right? And

27:41

then what's the one thing that I'm

27:43

gonna carry into the next race, especially

27:46

if we're going from semi-final to final?

27:48

What's the one thing that I'm gonna

27:50

carry forward? Because often I think what

27:52

happens is we overload ourselves and we

27:55

start because the possibilities are there, we

27:57

start thinking. I could I can meddle

27:59

I could win to win I need

28:01

to do X Y and Z I

28:04

need to get out off of this

28:06

I need to push out of the

28:08

blocks faster whatever it is you start

28:11

going over these things and I think

28:13

we get to a point of information

28:15

overload which then causes us to kind

28:17

of tense up, tighten up, and lose

28:20

it. So take that one thing, like,

28:22

what's the focus on this? So that

28:24

you can kind of center on it

28:26

as well. And then the last thing

28:29

I think that helps is you're never

28:31

gonna eliminate that pressure, but you can

28:33

turn the dial and tweak the dial

28:36

a little bit. And for every person,

28:38

this is gonna be different, right? But

28:40

what I like to tell people is.

28:42

in practice, in competitions leading up to

28:45

major ones, etc. This is where you

28:47

develop your toolkit. Meaning I want you

28:49

to try all sorts of different strategies.

28:51

Sometimes that's gonna mean, put things in

28:54

perspective. Meaning, you know, I know this

28:56

feels like the weight of the world

28:58

is on me, and you know, millions

29:00

of people are watching, but like, let's

29:03

be honest. In our sports, swimming and

29:05

track and field. Who gives a shit

29:07

except for like once every four week

29:10

or four years like? Who cares? You

29:12

know, and again, that's perspective shifting another

29:14

one that that that kind of works

29:16

in that situation from a coach's standpoint

29:19

is like, okay, let's imagine like it

29:21

doesn't go well, who's going to actually

29:23

care? Your coach, your parents, your friends,

29:25

etc. Are they all going to disown

29:28

you? No, they're going to support you

29:30

even if you don't show up. you

29:32

know, and do quite your best. Like,

29:34

yeah, they'll take it hard just like

29:37

you will, but they're still gonna be

29:39

there at the end of the day.

29:41

And I think zooming out and seeing

29:44

that pressure or like adjusting that perspective

29:46

can be successful. On the other side

29:48

of it is you can look at

29:50

doing things like reframing the situation, meaning

29:53

instead of zooming out, you kind of

29:55

like narrow in. And on this it's

29:57

like, forget if you're swimming. I don't

29:59

know, the 400, it's like forget the

30:02

first, you know, forget the whole race.

30:04

That's a lot of race to think

30:06

about. I'm just gonna focus on, you know,

30:08

getting off the blocks and that first

30:10

50 meters. No. And then we'll worry

30:12

about the next part later. And

30:15

this is often the tactic that

30:17

like works really well and longer

30:19

races and like the marathon, etc.

30:21

Because if you think of the

30:23

whole thing, you're just going to

30:25

be overwhelmed. And we could go

30:27

through a list of things, but

30:29

I think what we're really looking

30:32

at is like, how do you

30:34

shift your perspective? How do you

30:36

reframe the situation? And then sometimes

30:38

like. if doubts are creeping in,

30:40

how do you reaffirm or remind

30:42

yourself of the evidence that you

30:45

belong here and that you're ready

30:47

to perform here and that those

30:49

doubts are just kind of your

30:51

brain going like, hey, what happens

30:53

if things go wrong, which is

30:55

a perfectly reasonable thing for it

30:58

to do, but in this situation,

31:00

like we don't have to give

31:02

too much weight to that negativity.

31:05

Yeah, good stuff. I like all

31:07

that. Really applicable. And this is

31:09

the stuff that I think is important

31:12

is that application. How do you apply

31:14

this? Like it's one thing to recognize

31:16

it, but what do I do about

31:18

it? How do I change it? How

31:20

do I fix it? I'll give you

31:22

some more examples from my weekend

31:25

of helping my team through

31:27

some mental challenges. One of the

31:29

things we face, and I'll go through a

31:31

list of them, but one of the things

31:33

we face is Giving effort and staying

31:36

focused on what's right in front of

31:38

you. So like a lot of the kids

31:40

will swim multiple events in one day.

31:42

Let's just say two events in one day

31:44

and they might be might be too difficult

31:46

events in one day. How do you stay

31:49

focused on the what's right in front of

31:51

you rather than the whole picture like you

31:53

know saying well I've got to do this

31:55

and this today instead of saying I've got

31:57

to do this right now then I'll move

31:59

past that and then I'll go

32:01

on to this. Is there any

32:03

mental strategies there for dealing with

32:05

that? Yeah, absolutely. I like to

32:07

call it like, you know, breaking

32:10

it down to its simplest pieces,

32:12

meaning when we look at attention,

32:14

what happens is like our brain

32:16

kind of latches onto the shiny

32:18

object and the things that like

32:20

kind of scare us. Right? So

32:22

what happens when we have multiple

32:24

competitions going on at once, for

32:26

instance, or, you know, in the

32:28

same day, or same meter, what

32:30

have you, is our brain kind

32:32

of goes like, okay, I know

32:34

you got this, but like, don't

32:36

forget this big thing coming next.

32:38

Yeah, yeah. And because like that

32:41

big thing coming next, you can

32:43

often like blow it out of

32:45

proportion because you're like, well, I

32:47

might be a little tired after

32:49

the first race and you know,

32:51

the second one has better competitors

32:53

or what have you. So half

32:55

your mind is on on this

32:57

big shiny object over here because

32:59

like it's scary uncertain and might

33:01

feel like more of a threat.

33:03

And I think the antidote to

33:05

that is to give yourself. specific

33:07

and broken down things to focus

33:10

on, they get you back to

33:12

the first race or first competition.

33:14

In running, we'd be like, you

33:16

know, well, okay, what are we

33:18

going to focus on this one?

33:20

I want these splits for this

33:22

race or I want to get

33:24

out on this lap or, you

33:26

know, I want to be near

33:28

this competitor or I want to

33:30

feel this certain way. at this

33:32

race, right? You're trying to narrow

33:34

them into what actually matters here,

33:36

so that then we can say,

33:38

okay, next race, we're gonna get,

33:41

we'll worry about that later. The

33:43

other part that helps is when

33:45

you look at attention again, what

33:47

captures us is often like uncertainty.

33:49

So you develop some certainty around

33:51

it. What do I mean by

33:53

that is leading into the competition?

33:55

You have a plan. So what

33:57

are you going to do in

33:59

between your two races? Right? What's

34:01

the protocol to get you recovered

34:03

and then prepared? Outline it, have

34:05

it, plan it, put it away.

34:07

And whenever those thoughts come where

34:10

you're like, okay, I'm gonna worry

34:12

about that next race, you say,

34:14

no, like, here's my plan for

34:16

that next race. I've got it

34:18

written down. After this race, I'm

34:20

going to go look at it.

34:22

But right now, I've got to

34:24

I got to focus and latch

34:26

on to what really matters. And

34:28

you kind of fill that uncertainty

34:30

gap where like, no, there's certainty.

34:32

I don't have to worry about

34:34

that. I can focus like being

34:36

here right now. Yeah, good points.

34:38

Good points. I had another athlete

34:41

who or I have another athlete

34:43

and not going to mention any

34:45

names, but they may know who

34:47

they are if I talk about

34:49

them. They have a tendency to,

34:51

the first things that come out

34:53

of their mouth are negative, right?

34:55

And I think they're at the

34:57

point where they don't even recognize

34:59

that they're doing it, but you

35:01

know, they might go up and

35:03

look at the heat sheet and

35:05

see where they're out and they'll

35:07

start to say things openly and

35:10

outwardly that are ultimately negative up

35:12

front. And to me it feels

35:14

like a kind of a defense

35:16

mechanism of like, look, if I

35:18

say something negative, then the expectation

35:20

is I'm not going to do

35:22

well. And then if I do

35:24

well, then it's like, oh, I

35:26

did well, great. But everybody's expecting

35:28

me not to do well because

35:30

I'm verbally telling them I'm not

35:32

going to do well. But so

35:34

there's this set up almost, right?

35:36

Like how do I help an

35:38

athlete overcome that? Yeah, I talk

35:41

about this one in the book

35:43

because it's it's it's it's self

35:45

protection. You're spot on. And the

35:47

example I like to use is

35:49

everyone does this. Right. Think back

35:51

to when you were in school

35:53

and maybe you didn't study for

35:55

an exam. Right. You didn't do

35:57

much. Why? Because after the exam,

35:59

if did kind of well you're

36:01

like hey look I'm not an

36:03

idiot like I did pretty well

36:05

right right but if you win

36:07

all in and you studied really

36:10

hard and you failed that's harder

36:12

to face yeah right because then

36:14

that means like maybe I'm not

36:16

smart enough or don't understand this

36:18

thing so part of the way

36:20

we self-protect our ego is by

36:22

like deliberately kind of like self-sabotaging

36:24

in putting it out there that

36:26

like, oh, I'm not, I'm not,

36:28

I'm not ready, I'm not going

36:30

to perform well. It's the same,

36:32

it's the same with the athlete

36:34

who says like, you know, I

36:36

haven't started, you know, my faster

36:38

work yet, you know, and you're

36:41

just like, we're here at a

36:43

race, like what you've done in

36:45

training, like stop, you know, protecting

36:47

yourself, let's just see what's there.

36:49

And I think that it's tricky

36:51

to untangle as a coach, but

36:53

I think that it starts with

36:55

this, is you got to understand

36:57

why they're protecting themselves. Is it

36:59

because... you know, they care a

37:01

lot about swimming and the performance

37:03

really matters and it defines them.

37:05

Is it that mom and dad

37:07

or someone important is in the

37:10

stands and like puts a lot

37:12

of pressure on them to perform

37:14

and they don't want to let

37:16

them down. Like if you can

37:18

find the root cause of like

37:20

where this self protection is coming

37:22

from, that often like gives you

37:24

the freedom to explore it and

37:26

be like, hey. How do we

37:28

address this thing? If you can't

37:30

quite find that root cause, then

37:32

what I like to do is

37:34

try to change or reframe that

37:36

person's mindset to make it where

37:38

the race is about seeing what's

37:41

there. So for instance, I'll give

37:43

you some example that I've used

37:45

with runners before who have had

37:47

that situation. I will tell them,

37:49

I'll be like, hey, you know,

37:51

Johnny, Susie. Your goal of this

37:53

race is not to not to

37:55

PR or see whatever. Our goal

37:57

is simple is I want you

37:59

to go out with the leaders

38:01

the first half, you know, or

38:03

go out. You know, I'll give

38:05

them a split. You know, I

38:07

want you to go out in

38:10

205 for the first 800 instead

38:12

of normally you come through at

38:14

210 and they'll be like, why

38:16

would I do that? And you're

38:18

just saying, because I want to

38:20

see what you're capable of, like,

38:22

we've got to put you in

38:24

that spot. I don't care if

38:26

you blow up. If you blow

38:28

up, in fact, I will applaud

38:30

you because now we know where

38:32

you are if like you literally

38:34

run out of energy, right? And

38:36

you can't go. The whole goal

38:38

is like, get somewhere you haven't

38:41

been before, and then we'll worry

38:43

about the rest later. And what

38:45

you're doing there is essentially reframing

38:47

the goal of the race. away

38:49

from something that they can fail

38:51

at, which is like, did I

38:53

swim a PR or not, to

38:55

something that is like entirely within

38:57

their control, which is like, get

38:59

out fast for this part, and

39:01

then like, let's see what's left

39:03

in the tank and see how

39:05

much you slow down. And I

39:07

just want you to fight. That's

39:10

all that I care about. And

39:12

often what happens is that kind

39:14

of freeze them up because like

39:16

they stop worrying about you know,

39:18

winning or losing or hitting that

39:20

PR. And as a coach, I

39:22

have to look at these kind

39:24

of like early season meets or

39:26

like low key meets is the

39:28

places where we can kind of

39:30

experiment with that. Or the alternative

39:32

to that as well is I

39:34

like putting people in and maybe

39:36

they're. their B or C races,

39:38

right? Not their main event, where

39:41

they often feel more of this

39:43

pressure. And often if you put

39:45

them in a different event, it

39:47

can kind of free them up

39:49

to like see what they're capable

39:51

of, because like, if they swim

39:53

bad at a, you know, a

39:55

hundred. and they're used to being

39:57

a 400, they're just like, yeah,

39:59

whatever. But it allows us to

40:01

kind of have that conversation. And

40:03

once you can have that conversation,

40:05

it often allows you to free

40:07

them up to perform. Yeah, well,

40:10

generally, I found that if you

40:12

put them in a situation like

40:14

that, they perform well because they're

40:16

just relaxing. There's no expectation there,

40:18

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40:41

A lot of questions and I'm

40:43

glad you're here. I've got my

40:45

own questions. I need my own

40:47

performance psychologists and physiologists and all

40:49

of it. So I feel like

40:51

you can answer all the questions.

40:53

But look, I know athletics and

40:55

you know it too and you

40:57

see people like, in your sport,

40:59

Mondo de Plantis, right, whose parent

41:01

has coached them. throughout their career

41:03

and had success, right? So we

41:05

see the examples of this with

41:07

the the Williams sisters in tennis

41:10

and and people like this and

41:12

and I'm starting to see it

41:14

in in swimming where you know

41:16

you have parents who are very

41:18

heavily involved in in the athletes

41:20

performance. Now there are examples of

41:22

it where it's it's highly successful

41:24

but I think the majority of

41:26

it is It doesn't end up

41:28

like that. It's not good. So

41:30

I see a lot of parents

41:32

that are overly invested and just

41:34

need to let the coaches coach

41:36

a little bit more. Because I'll

41:38

have an athlete come to me

41:41

and say, here's my goal, here's

41:43

my expectation, here's the way I'm

41:45

going to swim it. And I'll

41:47

say, well, where did you get

41:49

all that from? We didn't talk

41:51

about that. That's not what I

41:53

have intended for you. It's like,

41:55

that's what mom wants. It's what

41:57

dad wants, you know, you know,

41:59

you know, you know, that's what

42:01

they. told me to do and

42:03

it's and and there's this there's

42:05

this back and forward this struggle

42:07

between what what they want and

42:10

then as soon as they get

42:12

out of the pool they're not

42:14

looking at me they're looking past

42:16

me to see how their parents

42:18

are reacting and and then they're

42:20

spending hours you know talking about

42:22

the race itself so you know

42:24

where I'm going with all this

42:26

is how how do you combat

42:28

that if if you can at

42:30

all? So first I think it's

42:32

important to outline a couple figures

42:34

on reality, which is if you

42:36

look at the research, the number

42:38

one contributor for young athletes for

42:41

experiencing what we call fear of

42:43

failure, which is like the things

42:45

we're talking about, not actually striving

42:47

for success because we're so afraid

42:49

of what it what it will

42:51

feel like if we fail, is

42:53

parents. So parents contribute to that.

42:55

And it makes sense. Right? Because

42:57

if you have a parent on

42:59

the sideline who is, you know,

43:01

putting all this expectation and pressure

43:03

and so invested in you, what

43:05

tends to happen is that that

43:07

kid or that athlete tightens up

43:10

because they feel like, oh my

43:12

gosh, I don't, who wants to

43:14

let mom or dad down? Right?

43:16

No kid wants to let their

43:18

mom or dad down, especially if

43:20

they're like investing this time energy

43:22

money, money, etc. So it's, it's,

43:24

let's start with that is, it's

43:26

a problem. Are there exceptions. Absolutely,

43:28

there's exceptions to everything. But even

43:30

if you look at some of

43:32

the greats, like who we use

43:34

as examples, for instance, Tiger Woods,

43:36

a couple years ago, he was

43:38

asked, you know, what would your

43:41

advice be for a young, you

43:43

know, star in a sport to

43:45

parents? And he said, and again,

43:47

I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember

43:49

the exact quote, but he said,

43:51

you know, it's got to be

43:53

them. It's got to be the

43:55

kid and he said I and

43:57

this is Tiger Woods. He said

43:59

despite everything you hear like I

44:01

never my dad never like forced

44:03

me to go play golf. I

44:05

was asking him to go play

44:07

golf. I was like that in

44:10

love with that. And whether you

44:12

believe him or not like that's

44:14

that's where the data shows as

44:16

well as is for the vast

44:18

majority of people is it's got

44:20

to be the kid driven and

44:22

not the parent top down dictating

44:24

and demanding because like the parent

44:26

often like again. causes some negative

44:28

psychological or mental ramifications from that.

44:30

So, okay, great. What do you

44:32

do as a coach? Well, this

44:34

is tough. No coach at every

44:36

high school, junior high, club team,

44:38

even college team, I talk to,

44:41

asked this same question because we're

44:43

all facing it. Right. And I

44:45

think that it starts a couple

44:47

ways. It starts with as a

44:49

coach, I think you've got to

44:51

do a better job of educating

44:53

our parents. Because they see the

44:55

Williams sisters or the Mondo and

44:57

say, that's, I'm gonna be that.

44:59

I want the best for my

45:01

child. I'm gonna be, you know,

45:03

that dad or mom on the

45:05

sidelines doing that. And we've got

45:07

to at least educate them on,

45:10

you know, okay, what actually tends

45:12

to help and what actually gets

45:14

in the way. There was a

45:16

wonderful study, not too many years

45:18

ago on, on high level tennis

45:20

juniors, right. And what they found

45:22

is they asked them, they surveyed

45:24

all the parents and they surveyed

45:26

all the kids and did all

45:28

the psychological research and they asked

45:30

the kids who, again, performing at

45:32

a high level at the junior

45:34

level, what would you, what do

45:36

you want your parents to know

45:38

or do during a match? And

45:41

it was completely different from that

45:43

expectation the parents had. The parents

45:45

thought, you know, they wanted to

45:47

be involved and to dictate strategy

45:49

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

45:51

blah. And the kid essentially wanted

45:53

them to sit back support. and

45:55

like be there no matter what

45:57

but not be the coach. Yeah.

45:59

And. that educating the parents

46:01

on like hey this is what

46:03

this is what helps is step

46:06

one and then I think step

46:08

two on that is some parents

46:10

are gonna resist because their parents

46:12

that's fine whatever is then it's

46:14

your relationship with the the

46:17

kid or the athlete so as the

46:19

coach you're never gonna you can't be

46:21

the one be like hey you know don't

46:23

ever listen to mom or dad right

46:25

because how's that gonna go over

46:28

But what you can do is

46:30

be like, okay, you know,

46:32

that's great. There's your

46:35

parents input. But when

46:37

it comes to swimming,

46:39

like, I'm your coach and

46:41

I'm like, you came to this

46:43

club to be a part

46:45

of this team. And like,

46:47

my job is to impart knowledge

46:50

that I see based on, you

46:52

know, working with, you know, dozens

46:54

and hundreds of other swimmers in

46:57

developing on my own career at

46:59

the highest level and like I

47:01

want you to have those opportunities

47:03

to develop wherever that takes you

47:06

and to do that like I see

47:08

it as X Y and Z like this

47:10

is what we need to focus on. And

47:12

often kids will get at. Now

47:14

is that kid going to go back to

47:16

mom and dad and be like I'm not

47:19

going to listen to you anymore? No.

47:21

They're gonna hear the parent, hear the

47:23

parent, but you as the coach almost

47:25

have to have to kind of like

47:27

be the, be the, be the buffer

47:29

sometimes. I remember when I was coaching

47:32

collegiate runners, there was a situation

47:34

or two where I had some, again,

47:36

parents who love their kids and were

47:38

wonderful, but like just put too much

47:40

on on their kid. And I can

47:43

tell it because that athlete, whenever their

47:45

kid was in the stance, that athlete

47:47

would choke. And I remember having

47:49

to. you know, have a conversation

47:51

with a couple kids and be like,

47:53

hey, you know, is this pressure coming from

47:56

mom or dad? And they'd be like, yeah,

47:58

I feel good until you know, race,

48:00

like mom or dad comes up and

48:02

starts talking to me. And then

48:04

I feel like my, my, you know,

48:06

physiological arousal goes from like excited,

48:08

but under control to just like fear

48:11

and anxious, right? And I'll be

48:13

like, okay, got it. And as a

48:15

coach, what I have to do,

48:17

I had to essentially be the buffer,

48:19

right? So I'd be like, okay,

48:21

you know, you're gonna, you know, little

48:23

Susie Johnny, you're gonna go warm

48:25

up and do this stuff. And I'd

48:28

be kind on the outlook, looking

48:30

out for the parents. And I'd be

48:32

like, Hey, you know, I'd intercept.

48:34

And I'd be like, Hey, you know,

48:36

Jim, like, you know, Susie's warming

48:38

up right now, like, let's, let's come

48:40

back later. Can you talk to

48:43

her after, after the race? She's kind

48:45

of getting in the zone. And

48:47

you just have to find creative ways

48:49

to like get, be that buffer

48:51

for that kid, so that they don't

48:53

feel the brunt of it, especially

48:55

at a younger age. Yeah. Yeah, for

48:57

sure. We had, we had parents

49:00

on the sideline across the whole pool

49:02

from various scenes, but like on

49:04

the side of the pool, like right

49:06

in front where the, where the

49:08

kids turned, like screaming at their children

49:10

on the weekend, like, I've never,

49:12

I've never met anyone, certainly not myself

49:15

either, where, where I've thought to

49:17

myself, oh, my mom is screaming so

49:19

hard right now, I need to

49:21

try harder. I need to swim faster.

49:23

Like, why, why are you screaming

49:25

at your child? Almost to the point

49:27

where a couple of parents almost

49:29

fell in the pool, like they were

49:32

yelling so hard at their kid.

49:34

I'm like, that does nothing. It does

49:36

zero. Your kid is not trying

49:38

harder. They're not swimming faster. They're not

49:40

looking at you thinking, wow, my

49:42

mom looks really cool right now with

49:44

a bright red face almost falling

49:47

in the pool. It's just madness to

49:49

me. It is, but, you know,

49:51

it is. I think it's, it's just

49:53

part of the culture, especially in

49:55

youth sports, especially in America. And I

49:57

think what happens is, is this,

49:59

is that, is those moms or dads, they want

50:01

the best for their kid, and then they

50:04

see these other parents doing

50:06

this crazy stuff, and then

50:08

it just becomes normalized. And

50:10

often what happens is it

50:12

makes that parent feel like, I'm

50:14

doing something. Like, I'm yell, look

50:16

at how hard I'm yelling for my

50:19

child. They must, you know, I

50:21

must be a good parent. it's

50:23

hard to combat that stuff, but

50:25

like we've got to do it

50:27

the best that we can. And

50:30

sometimes that means addressing with the

50:32

parent, but sometimes that means, you

50:34

know, buffering it with that kid

50:36

and being the kind of voice of

50:38

sanity and reality over on

50:40

the other side. Yeah. How along

50:43

the same lines, how do you

50:45

overcome the comparison factor, right? Like,

50:47

look. I went to the national championships

50:49

when I was 13 and I finished

50:52

dead last at 13. There wasn't a

50:54

single person that finished ahead of me

50:56

at that national championships at the age

50:58

of 13. There wasn't a single one

51:00

of those swimmers but by the age

51:02

of 18 were faster than me. I was faster

51:04

than all of them by 18. So I could

51:07

look at myself in 13 and say I suck,

51:09

I'm never going to make it, I'm terrible, I'm

51:11

the last in the nation, you know. And then

51:13

at 18, I'm number one, and none

51:16

of them are still around, and I'm

51:18

the fastest person in Australia. So that

51:20

was the natural progression for me.

51:22

And the progression for me was

51:24

growth, right? Like, okay, I'm getting

51:26

stronger, I'm getting faster, I'm beating

51:29

this person, I'm getting that person. So

51:31

it was just like this growth

51:33

thing. Parents want their kids to

51:35

be the number one right now and

51:37

think that that's the most important

51:40

thing. that will lead them to ultimately becoming

51:42

what I became right and I never

51:44

saw it that way I was thought

51:46

to myself like man I'm gonna I'm

51:48

gonna get all these kids along the

51:50

way right that's that was my mentality

51:52

and then it's what ended up happening

51:54

and I see it but parents and

51:56

swimmers they think it's so important to

51:58

be good at 12 and And if

52:00

you're not, the number one there

52:02

now, there's no chance you'll be

52:04

number one at 18. And it's

52:06

almost the inverse. It happens the

52:08

opposite of that, doesn't it? It

52:10

does. And I'm glad you brought

52:12

that up and used yourself an

52:14

example because the comparison game can

52:16

kill us. I mean, and it's

52:18

so worse now, because we have

52:20

more information, right? And it's easily

52:22

accessible. Like when you're growing up

52:24

and competing. similar to me, like,

52:26

you probably saw the people in

52:28

your races, right? And they're like,

52:30

okay, you know, this is where

52:32

I'm at. But you couldn't easily

52:34

go online and compare yourself to

52:36

like everybody in history and everybody

52:38

in the world right in that

52:40

moment, right? Now we can. And

52:42

it's no, not too dissimilar from

52:44

the social media comparison game, right?

52:46

It's easy to get excited about

52:48

things if you can look around

52:50

and be like, hey, I'm the

52:52

fastest kid in my class. Yeah.

52:54

But if you look around and

52:56

your comparison is not just the

52:59

class, but the entire freaking world

53:01

of the internet, it's easy to

53:03

find a place where you look

53:05

at yourself and you're like, oh,

53:07

I suck, you know. Or I'm

53:09

overly important, or I'm overly important,

53:11

right? So like what we have

53:13

to do is realize that that

53:15

has shifted and changed. And I

53:17

think it's our job to give

53:19

like the information reality. which is

53:21

one of the things that I

53:23

did, because I face that same

53:25

question all the time, is I

53:27

pulled up, and I forget what

53:29

year I did, but I pulled

53:31

up all the kind of like

53:33

Olympians and the US in track

53:35

and field and in various distances,

53:37

and I looked at their rankings

53:39

when they were, you know, 12,

53:41

13, 14, whatever they were. And

53:43

then I went back and looked

53:45

at the people who were ranked

53:47

first or whatever, in that same

53:49

time period, I was asked, do

53:51

you know this person? And most

53:53

time they didn't because like that

53:55

person didn't make it. Right. And

53:57

I think we've got to hit

53:59

the dose of reality, which is

54:01

like being number one at 12,

54:03

like is not the goal. And

54:05

the other part of it is

54:07

too, is I would also outline

54:09

like different performance paths, which is

54:11

sometimes you see people make big

54:13

jumps, you know, at certain age,

54:15

sometimes they take a long slow

54:17

route, but get there's all of

54:19

these different development paths. And I

54:21

think when when people don't understand

54:23

it, don't see those don't. become

54:25

a reality. So as a coach,

54:27

I would always try and connect,

54:29

you know, with an athlete on

54:31

and a parent be like, hey,

54:33

you know, this athlete is going

54:35

steady here. You know who else

54:37

also had a steady rise was

54:39

like this person they would know,

54:41

you know, and we've got to

54:43

give them alternative pass because like,

54:45

if we don't, the search for

54:47

like being the best 12 year

54:49

old is the game that you

54:51

play. And if you're playing that

54:53

game, what happens is you start

54:55

focusing on short-term development instead of

54:57

long-term development. So you harm where

54:59

they ultimately end up because like

55:01

you're saying screw it, we're just

55:03

going to do all this crazy

55:05

stuff to get you to be

55:07

the best 12-year-old in the country

55:09

and then have nowhere to go,

55:11

you know? So it's... I'm lucky

55:13

in that sense. Yeah, coach is

55:15

real hard. But I'm lucky in

55:17

that sense. I see a lot

55:19

of... club coaches these days where

55:21

their identities wrapped up in this

55:23

and I guess as a young

55:25

coach I started at a different

55:27

level I was in college and

55:29

I got to coach athletes that

55:31

went on to swim at the

55:33

Olympics so I certainly can identify

55:35

with the fact that your ego

55:37

is wrapped up in it right

55:39

at some point and but I

55:41

see a lot of club coaches

55:43

who want that 12 year old

55:45

to be the fastest so that

55:47

they can represent them. And I

55:49

don't need that. Like I've coached

55:51

Olympic champions. I've coached the fastest

55:53

swimmer in history. Caesar's Yellow still

55:56

got the world record in the

55:58

50 freestyle. you know my ego's

56:00

there I'm cool right I don't

56:02

need anything beyond that but look

56:04

there's a couple things I'll say

56:06

with this is like I want

56:08

all my kids to be fast

56:10

and we train to be fast

56:12

we we train to swim fast

56:14

that's what I want I do

56:16

want that you know what I

56:18

want way more than that is

56:20

I want my kids two things

56:22

that I want more than anything

56:24

for my kids to to be

56:26

happening right now is I want

56:28

you to be in the sport

56:30

at 16 and the reason why

56:32

I say that is because the

56:34

majority of swimmers drop out at

56:36

that age. Like that's where a

56:38

huge drop-off was for me. It

56:40

was easy because I was still

56:42

in it and I thought to

56:44

myself, well all the best swimmers

56:46

are dropping out so my odds

56:48

are improving anyway. So I wanted

56:50

them, I want them to swim

56:52

at 16 and beyond that I

56:54

want them to swim in college.

56:56

My greatest experience was being on

56:58

a team in college, getting an

57:00

education, traveling the country, you know,

57:02

it was just the ultimate, right?

57:04

I ended up going to the

57:06

Olympics and all, but I would

57:08

say that my college experience was

57:10

way beyond anything because I got

57:12

a free education from the sport

57:14

that I love, and I was

57:16

around teammates and I got, you

57:18

know, these days, athletes get all

57:20

sorts of things for being on,

57:22

yeah. college seems. So I want

57:24

my athletes now to swimming college.

57:26

That's something that I really want

57:28

for them. So to say that

57:30

I don't care whether they're fast

57:32

at 12 or 13 is not

57:34

the case, but I don't, but

57:36

I also want them to have

57:38

experiences where they fail. I want

57:40

you to fail. I want you

57:42

to come to me upset at

57:44

times, right? Like I want you

57:46

to have success, but I... equally

57:48

wants you to have failure because

57:50

I want you ultimately to get

57:52

through this sport and be a

57:54

well-rounded athlete who can compete at

57:56

the highest level. So that's how

57:58

I'm thinking about it, right? Absolutely.

58:00

And that's how you should. I'm

58:02

glad I figured you would, but

58:04

like I'm glad to hear it

58:06

because that's that's what helps not

58:08

only from a athletic standpoint, revolution

58:10

school. This is the culmination of

58:12

my life's work. Everything I've learned

58:14

coaching some of the world's elite

58:16

athletes, including Caesar Cielo, Fred Busquet,

58:18

Bruno Fratas, and leading my Auburn

58:20

team to the NCAA championship in

58:22

2009 alongside the legend Richard Quick.

58:24

Now all of that knowledge is

58:26

available to you. Our program is

58:28

structured into easy to follow interactive

58:30

modules designed to take you from

58:32

where you are today to becoming

58:34

the fastest swimmer you've ever been.

58:36

Check out the link in the

58:38

description or simply search the Sprint

58:40

Revolution on school.com to get started.

58:42

Think about it. You stay in

58:44

the sport. That means you... have

58:46

like this relationship with something, the

58:48

sport you enjoy, physical activity, etc.

58:50

that will probably be there the

58:53

rest of your life. You compete,

58:55

learn how to compete and fail,

58:57

which teaches you life lessons, and

58:59

then hopefully you get to college

59:01

and get a degree which sets

59:03

you up for the whole rest

59:05

of your life. And there's research

59:07

that backs this up at the

59:09

highest level. So actually in swimmers

59:11

there was a there's a wonderful

59:13

study a couple years ago that

59:15

looked at Olympic medal winning swimmers

59:17

like that was the category they

59:19

looked at and then they looked

59:21

at people a couple notches down

59:23

and what they found is one

59:25

of the difference makers was did

59:27

those athletes go through adversity. Meaning,

59:29

did they learn how to fail?

59:31

Did they learn how to lose

59:33

or go through an injury or

59:35

like just a struggle point in

59:37

their career? And what inevitably happened

59:39

is that that struggle point turned

59:41

into something that allowed them to

59:43

develop the resilience to keep in

59:45

the sport and succeed at the

59:47

highest level. Well, those who were

59:49

a couple notches down who might

59:51

have been at around the same

59:53

performance level as, you know, younger

59:55

athletes, they didn't have that adversity

59:57

that which like hardened them and,

59:59

you know, motivated. them and give

1:00:01

them the skills to succeed at

1:00:03

the next level at the next

1:00:05

level. So I think from a

1:00:07

standpoint, and we've all seen it,

1:00:09

right, where we've had young athletes

1:00:11

who never learned how to fail,

1:00:13

and then what happens is once

1:00:15

reality smacks you in the face,

1:00:17

it can send you for a

1:00:19

loop. So when do you want

1:00:21

to learn that lesson? Right? When

1:00:23

you're 181920 for the first time?

1:00:25

Or do you want to learn

1:00:27

it when you're 1314, 15, 16,

1:00:29

17, like developing? Like that is

1:00:31

the time to learn how to

1:00:33

handle adversity. Yeah, yeah, great stuff.

1:00:35

I love it. I got a

1:00:37

couple more thoughts and questions. We're

1:00:39

at about an hour, Mark. Are

1:00:41

you okay to go a little?

1:00:43

Yeah, sure. I love this stuff.

1:00:45

Man, you're awesome. I could talk

1:00:47

to you forever, by the way.

1:00:49

Thanks. Mental toughness. It's

1:00:51

one of these words that gets

1:00:53

thrown around and it means various

1:00:55

things, but it certainly means something

1:00:57

to me and how I apply

1:01:00

it and how I help my

1:01:02

athletes develop it. What is mental

1:01:04

toughness to you? How do you

1:01:06

develop it? And what does it

1:01:08

mean today? Because what it meant

1:01:10

20 years ago, I think is

1:01:12

different to what it means today

1:01:14

too. Yeah, it's one of those

1:01:16

words that I think everybody kind

1:01:18

of knows has a degree of

1:01:20

what it means, but like it's

1:01:22

so ambiguous that it gets lost.

1:01:24

I think, you know, to me,

1:01:26

what it means is how do

1:01:28

you respond to moments? Like how

1:01:30

do you respond to those moments

1:01:32

of adversity? of you know, tough

1:01:34

times of when you're challenged. It's

1:01:36

like, which, which direction do you

1:01:38

go? Are you able to kind

1:01:40

of like respond in a process

1:01:42

that allows you to work towards

1:01:45

growth or are you responding or

1:01:47

reacting in a process that kind

1:01:49

of works towards that protection, you

1:01:51

know, avoidance, etc. That's, that's how

1:01:53

I kind of look at it.

1:01:55

And I think, you know, when

1:01:57

we look at at it through

1:01:59

that lens is, you know, 20,

1:02:01

30 years ago, we just saw

1:02:03

mental toughness is essentially like, you

1:02:05

know, putting your head down, you

1:02:07

know, trying to, you know, ram

1:02:09

through the brick wall until you

1:02:11

got through. And I think now

1:02:13

what we realize is it's, like

1:02:15

you just said there, it's a

1:02:17

skill set to develop. And part

1:02:19

of that skill set to me.

1:02:21

involves not just having tools to

1:02:23

understand like how to do hard

1:02:25

things, but it's also tools to

1:02:27

like cope with the emotions or

1:02:30

the inner experience of your world

1:02:32

instead of just like ignoring it,

1:02:34

learning how to understand it. An

1:02:36

example I like to give here

1:02:38

is, you know, as athletes, we

1:02:40

have to understand the difference between

1:02:42

like, maybe pain that is fatigue

1:02:44

related and pain that is potential

1:02:46

injury related. But the only reason

1:02:48

we get there is through doing

1:02:50

the thing and listening to our

1:02:52

body and understanding those different signals.

1:02:54

If you don't do the work

1:02:56

and you just say, I'm just

1:02:58

gonna always ignore pain, always ignore

1:03:00

pain. Then sometime you're gonna come

1:03:02

up to pain that is injury

1:03:04

related. And when you should have

1:03:06

stopped swimming at, you know, rep

1:03:08

five, you're gonna keep going and

1:03:10

then you're gonna tear something and

1:03:12

then you're gonna be out and

1:03:15

done. And your mental, quote unquote

1:03:17

mental toughness got you nowhere. So

1:03:19

it's kind of like that nuance

1:03:21

of like understanding you know the

1:03:23

the the inner world and you

1:03:25

know the outer world to see

1:03:27

how we can kind of navigate

1:03:29

those moments. Yeah part of my

1:03:31

job I believe part of any

1:03:33

great coaches job is to kind

1:03:35

of elicit a response like a

1:03:37

stress response right like I never

1:03:39

you know I might get a

1:03:41

workout and the kids will look

1:03:43

at it and they think you

1:03:45

know they might say I can't

1:03:47

do this and I think You

1:03:49

know, I say to them is

1:03:51

like I would never write anything

1:03:53

I didn't think you can do

1:03:55

generally. Occasionally I want you to

1:03:57

fail, but I might build that

1:04:00

in. But generally I put in

1:04:02

a workout that is exceptionally challenging

1:04:04

but doable and I say to

1:04:06

them like what did you want?

1:04:08

Did you want me to just

1:04:10

write down a workout that is

1:04:12

easy to do and doesn't challenge

1:04:14

you? Like is that the type

1:04:16

of coach you want? Like my

1:04:18

job I feel like as a

1:04:20

coach is to think about okay

1:04:22

how can I challenge this athlete

1:04:24

today? How can I how can

1:04:26

I push them to a point

1:04:28

where they may feel like this

1:04:30

is further than I've ever gone

1:04:32

before but or more challenging than

1:04:34

I've ever done, but when they

1:04:36

overcome it, they feel this sense

1:04:38

of accomplishment. And then I say

1:04:40

to them at the end of

1:04:42

it, it's like, see, I told

1:04:45

you you could do it. So

1:04:47

then there's this idea of like,

1:04:49

oh, wow, I can do things

1:04:51

I didn't think I could do.

1:04:53

So that to me is building

1:04:55

in mental toughness. It's growth. I

1:04:57

mean, what you're getting at is,

1:04:59

to me, it's seeing, I thought

1:05:01

I was capable of X, but

1:05:03

I'm capable of why after going

1:05:05

on this journey. And I think

1:05:07

you're spot on, it's our job

1:05:09

as coaches to put people in

1:05:11

position where we challenge them to

1:05:13

grow on this journey. And whether

1:05:15

that's through workouts or races or

1:05:17

competitions or whatever have you, like

1:05:19

that's what it's all about. I

1:05:21

do like your ideas on recovery

1:05:23

though, and so like we've talked

1:05:25

about here, this idea of stress

1:05:27

and building it in and mental

1:05:30

toughness. is exceptionally important, but on

1:05:32

the flip side of that is

1:05:34

we've learned that it's not just

1:05:36

about banging your head against a

1:05:38

wall and who can endure the

1:05:40

longest, right? That's not mental toughness.

1:05:42

So this idea of recovery and

1:05:44

how you grow from applying a

1:05:46

stress and then allowing yourself to

1:05:48

recover from it and then coming

1:05:50

back and applying a new stress

1:05:52

or an extended stress or whatever

1:05:54

it is. So talk to me

1:05:56

about that as well. Yeah, so

1:05:58

this is the difference between what

1:06:00

I'd call old school coaching styles

1:06:02

and both. track and swimming and

1:06:04

like an understanding of the physiology

1:06:06

of it. Yeah, which is the

1:06:08

point of training is to essentially

1:06:10

embarrass the body. So it says,

1:06:12

hey, I have to, I have

1:06:15

to get better at this thing.

1:06:17

I have to adapt. But in

1:06:19

order to adapt, we have to

1:06:21

have the right amount of recovery

1:06:23

or, you know, time or what

1:06:25

have you to allow us to

1:06:27

our body to go through the

1:06:29

process of building up in repairing

1:06:31

and growing stronger. And if we

1:06:33

don't, we're kind of screwed. So

1:06:35

this is why I look at

1:06:37

like, again, old school methods is

1:06:39

like just go into, go kill

1:06:41

yourself every day. And then we

1:06:43

hope you survive and you know,

1:06:45

you get better. But I think

1:06:47

now what we have to appreciate

1:06:49

is like, no, we know, it's

1:06:51

apply a specific stress that is,

1:06:53

yes, can be hard. But then

1:06:55

like we have to have the

1:06:57

recovery arrest that's compensatory to that.

1:07:00

in order to allow our body

1:07:02

to adapt. Sometimes that's on a

1:07:04

day-to-day cycle, sometimes that's on a

1:07:06

week or a month or a,

1:07:08

you know, whatever, a bigger, longer

1:07:10

term cycle of like building in

1:07:12

that stress or recovery. But if

1:07:14

we don't, we're kind of setting

1:07:16

ourselves up for, you know, not

1:07:18

adapting in a positive direction. Well,

1:07:20

you use the word body and

1:07:22

then you and I completely understand

1:07:24

that's absolutely necessary. And I... wouldn't

1:07:26

assume that you would overlook this

1:07:28

either but it's just as important

1:07:30

to recover the mind right like

1:07:32

when you're going through a stress

1:07:34

like that it's mentally challenging and

1:07:36

fatiguing and getting that that mental

1:07:38

rest can be just as important

1:07:40

as recovering the body because they're

1:07:42

so interconnected as well. Yeah I

1:07:45

mean one of my favorite studies

1:07:47

that looked at this is they

1:07:49

I think it was swimming is

1:07:51

where they tested it might have

1:07:53

been running I forget at the

1:07:55

top my head but they essentially

1:07:57

had had people do a challenging

1:07:59

race, right? And then before the

1:08:01

next time they did it, they

1:08:03

either had them do some sort

1:08:06

of like mentally demanding tasks, like

1:08:08

solves the math problems, or had

1:08:10

them like rest, recover, and

1:08:13

relax. And what happened is

1:08:15

like literally doing the math problems

1:08:17

in between caused them to

1:08:20

physically swim or run slower. Why?

1:08:22

Because like the mental side of

1:08:24

it, and I think nowadays, especially.

1:08:27

When we look at how much

1:08:29

we're kind of stimulated mentally,

1:08:31

is we don't do a good

1:08:34

job of allowing us to mentally

1:08:36

bounce back, recover. In fact, there

1:08:38

was another study that looked at,

1:08:40

I think it was rugby players,

1:08:43

where they looked at after a

1:08:45

game, whether athletes went or

1:08:47

whether they made athletes like, you

1:08:49

know, get dinner and food with

1:08:51

their teammates, right? Or whether they

1:08:54

sent them off on the bus home.

1:08:56

where they only looked at their phones.

1:08:58

And what happens is when they

1:09:00

went on the bus, didn't interact, looked

1:09:02

at their phones, their markers of

1:09:04

recovery were much worse than when they

1:09:07

just had a meal with their teammates

1:09:09

and friends. Why? Because a meal with

1:09:11

your teammates and friends is often

1:09:13

mentally rejuvenating, right? You're eating good

1:09:16

food. You're having, you know, you're

1:09:18

shooting the shit with your teammates,

1:09:21

so it's fun and enjoyable. If

1:09:23

you're sitting on a bus alone

1:09:25

with your thoughts, scrolling on a

1:09:27

phone, it's not going to be very

1:09:29

mentally recovering. In fact, it'll probably

1:09:32

like put you in a darker

1:09:34

hole as you scroll on social

1:09:36

media and maybe, you know, compare yourself

1:09:38

to everybody. Yeah, yeah, so true. I

1:09:40

can attest to this just last night

1:09:42

driving home from Vegas, right? I'm at

1:09:45

this swim meet all day. doing nothing

1:09:47

physically just kind of getting up out

1:09:49

of my chair occasionally to watch a

1:09:51

swim and then sitting back down but

1:09:53

doing nothing physically demanding but by

1:09:55

the end of it you know trying to drive

1:09:57

home you know at nine o'clock at night into

1:10:00

into midnight, you know, met that mental

1:10:02

fatigue of that concentration of trying not

1:10:04

to die on the road, but being

1:10:06

mentally just fried from from the swim

1:10:09

meet, you know, dealing with emotions and

1:10:11

the ups and downs of the meat

1:10:13

and all that sorts. I was just

1:10:15

mentally exhausted. So hopping in a car

1:10:18

was probably not the best solution at

1:10:20

that point because I had zero concentration

1:10:22

and I just completely fatigued. Yeah, that's

1:10:25

a that's a great example and I've

1:10:27

experienced that one myself But it's one

1:10:29

of those that shows right there that

1:10:31

it's like the mental side especially on

1:10:34

fatigue plays a big role Yeah, exactly

1:10:36

May this has been outstanding. So your

1:10:38

your new book when the inside game

1:10:41

just give us a brief outline of

1:10:43

that way can people find it all

1:10:45

that sort of stuff? Yeah, so it's

1:10:47

Out soon, February 4th, I think, is

1:10:50

the release date. It'll be on Amazon,

1:10:52

Barnes & Noble, everybody, you can, everywhere

1:10:54

you can buy books. Can also find

1:10:57

it at my website, steebagnus.com, where I'm

1:10:59

giving away a lot of bonus stuff

1:11:01

if you order. So check it out.

1:11:03

Like I said earlier, I think your

1:11:06

stuff's the best in terms of performance.

1:11:08

You know, what do you call it

1:11:10

exactly? Performance what? Performance science? Yeah, I

1:11:13

think performance science does it. It runs

1:11:15

the gamut between physical and psychological, but

1:11:17

that's kind of where I lie. I

1:11:19

learned so much from you on Instagram.

1:11:22

So tell us what's your Instagram, what's

1:11:24

your X, your Twitter, all that sort

1:11:26

of stuff. Yeah, so I'm very simple

1:11:29

at Instagram and Twitter at Steve Magnus

1:11:31

and all social media. So just search

1:11:33

my name and you'll find me. Good

1:11:35

stuff mate. I appreciate everything you do

1:11:38

and I'm learning every day from you

1:11:40

so keep it up. Thank you for

1:11:42

the hard work and and the effort

1:11:44

you put into educating us. It's awesome

1:11:47

man. So thanks for this conversation today

1:11:49

too. Thanks so much Brett. Had a

1:11:51

blast. All right Steve take care. So,