0:12

from historic downtown Carlisle

0:14

Pennsylvania, home of founding

0:16

father James Wilson, 19th

0:18

century hymn writer George

0:21

Duffield, 19th century gospel

0:23

minister George Northross, and

0:25

sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's

0:27

iron sharpens iron. This is

0:29

a radio platform in which

0:31

pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians

0:33

address the burning issues facing

0:35

the church and the world

0:37

today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse

0:39

17 tells us iron sharpens

0:42

iron so one man sharpens

0:44

another Matthew Henry said that

0:46

in this passage we are

0:48

cautioned to take feed with

0:50

who we converse and directed

0:52

to have a view in

0:54

conversation to make one another

0:56

wiser and better. It is

0:58

our hope that this goal

1:00

will be accomplished over the

1:02

next two hours and we

1:04

hope to hear from you

1:06

the listener with your own

1:08

questions. And now here's your

1:10

host. Chris Arnsen. Good afternoon,

1:12

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City,

1:14

Florida, and the rest of

1:16

humanity living on the planet Earth,

1:19

who are listening the live streaming

1:21

at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.com.

1:23

This is Chris Arnsen. You're

1:25

host of Iron Sharpens Iron

1:28

Radio.com. This is Chris

1:30

Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens

1:32

Iron Radio, wishing you all

1:34

a happy Thursday. on this 13th

1:36

day of February 2025. I'm

1:38

thrilled to have a returning

1:41

guest on the program who I've

1:43

interviewed many times. I

1:45

always love interviewing this

1:47

dear brother, who has become

1:49

a dear friend over the years,

1:51

who I've had the privilege

1:54

of having speak at one of my

1:56

Iron Trep and Zion radio

1:58

pastors lunches. A number

2:00

of years ago, I look

2:03

forward to him returning to

2:05

do that at some point

2:08

in the future. And today

2:10

we are going to

2:12

be addressing two subjects

2:15

that gives us no

2:17

pleasure to discuss, sadly.

2:19

The first topic we

2:21

are going to be

2:23

addressing is an evaluation

2:26

of Stephen Lawson. a

2:28

world-renowned, globally beloved figure

2:30

and hero to many.

2:32

We fell into scandal

2:34

of sin and is

2:37

basically in hiding, avoiding

2:39

public scrutiny, avoiding the

2:41

evaluation of Christian brethren

2:43

all over the world.

2:45

He has not made

2:48

any public statement. asking

2:50

for forgiveness from all

2:52

of the thousands of

2:54

people who trusted him,

2:56

purchased his books, attended

2:59

conferences because he was

3:01

on the platform, and

3:03

those Christian leaders who

3:05

appointed him to positions

3:07

of authority in their

3:09

organizations, not a peat

3:12

publicly of... asking forgiveness

3:14

of confessing his repentance

3:16

and that troubles us

3:18

deeply and one of

3:20

the reasons we feel

3:23

compelled to address this

3:25

issue is because if

3:27

we who have a

3:29

platform for apologetics ministry

3:31

as iron sharpensine radio

3:34

frequently provides to apologists

3:36

such as Justin Peters.

3:38

If we go after

3:40

people and expose them...

3:42

and offer public critiques

3:45

and exposies over individuals

3:47

that are outside of

3:49

our own theological camp.

3:51

We obviously cannot show

3:53

favoritism or it's not

3:55

right for us to

3:58

show favoritism and avoid

4:00

addressing individuals within our

4:02

own theological camp that

4:04

have caused great harm

4:06

to many... countless individuals

4:09

and has brought up

4:11

approach upon the name

4:13

of Christ in his

4:15

church and so we'll

4:17

be dealing with that

4:20

in the first hour

4:22

regrettably. And another thing

4:24

that we're not thrilled

4:26

about addressing is the

4:28

arch heretic Paula White

4:31

who has been appointed

4:33

by President Trump to

4:35

lead an office called

4:37

the White House Faith

4:39

Office, and it baffles

4:42

my mind, I'm sure

4:44

baffles Justin Peters' mind,

4:46

that of all the

4:48

thousands of people that

4:50

have somehow become connected

4:52

with President Trump, that

4:55

there weren't more people

4:57

of sound mind and

4:59

biblically orthodox convictions. who

5:01

did not swarm around

5:03

the president to warn

5:06

him about this appointment

5:08

or about this person,

5:10

Paula White, who is

5:12

a seriously dangerous heretic.

5:14

But first of all,

5:17

let me welcome you

5:19

back to Iron Trep

5:21

and Zion Radio, my

5:23

dear friend Justin Peters.

5:25

Chris, it's a joy

5:28

to be back with

5:30

you brother. It truly

5:32

is. It's been too

5:34

long and, excuse me,

5:36

I'm sorry, I've been

5:38

kind of... Hard to

5:41

bend down with my

5:43

schedule, but it's a

5:45

joy to be back

5:47

with you. Although I

5:49

echo your sentiment. Wish

5:52

it. it was under

5:54

happier circumstances. Yes, before

5:56

we delve into that,

5:58

I want to make

6:00

mention of one of

6:03

my favorite conferences, the

6:05

G3 conference this September.

6:07

They have switched back

6:09

to the national conference.

6:11

They are now alternating

6:14

between. National Conferences, which

6:16

are the larger ones

6:18

in Atlanta, Georgia, and

6:20

regional conferences every other

6:22

year. They're smaller and

6:25

take place at various

6:27

cities all over the

6:29

United States, changing each

6:31

year. But this September

6:33

11th through the 13th

6:35

in Atlanta, Georgia, the

6:38

National G3 Conference, is

6:40

on the theme Faith.

6:42

And they've got 20

6:44

speakers at this conference.

6:46

They always have a

6:49

huge and impressive lineup,

6:51

but some of the

6:53

men to highlight are

6:55

my guest Justin Peters,

6:57

of course. My dear

7:00

friend, for many years,

7:02

Dr. James R. White

7:04

of Alpha and Mega

7:06

Ministries, Paul Washer, Dr.

7:08

Joel Beeky, who's also

7:11

been a friend of

7:13

mine dating back to

7:15

the early 1990s. I

7:17

was actually the first

7:19

person. to get Dr.

7:22

Beeky exposed on the

7:24

radio to have his

7:26

sermons aired on the

7:28

radio. One of my

7:30

favorite preachers on the

7:32

planet Earth, Dr. Hensworth

7:35

Jonas, who I just

7:37

recently arranged a Bible

7:39

conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

7:41

with Hensworth. A Virgil

7:43

Walker of G3 Ministries

7:46

on the lineup, Kasty

7:48

Hinn, the nephew of...

7:50

Benny Hind, another arch

7:52

heretic. Kasti has renounced

7:54

his former heretical views

7:57

and also renounced his

7:59

uncle as a false

8:01

teacher. He's one of

8:03

the speakers. Darrell Bernard

8:05

Harrison, a good friend

8:08

of mine, Tom Buck,

8:10

another very good friend

8:12

of mine, and many

8:14

more. Do you have

8:16

any idea what you're

8:18

going to be speaking

8:21

on at this early

8:23

stage in the game,

8:25

Justin? I don't,

8:27

Chris. I know the general

8:30

theme of the conference is

8:32

faith. So I imagine I

8:34

will be teaching on faith

8:36

in some capacity. My guess

8:39

is probably maybe the distorted

8:41

view of faith that false

8:43

teachers have and contrast that

8:46

with the biblical understanding of

8:48

faith, some iteration of that

8:50

I would imagine. But I

8:53

haven't actually been officially assigned

8:55

my... topic yet, so that

8:57

still awaits to come into

9:00

my inbox. Well, I'm sure

9:02

you'll do a great job

9:04

for more information on this

9:07

conference and to register for

9:09

it. Go to g3men.org, g3men.org,

9:11

and as I said already,

9:14

this conference is taking place

9:16

this September, the 11th through

9:18

the 13th. in Atlanta, Georgia.

9:21

And is there anything coming

9:23

up in the more near

9:25

future that you'd like to

9:28

address as far as special

9:30

events where you are speaking?

9:32

Well, I've got a number

9:35

of events coming up. I'll

9:37

be in a couple of

9:39

different churches in May. I'll

9:42

be in Kentucky in April.

9:44

I'll be... somewhere

9:46

in March and after,

9:48

like I don't remember,

9:50

but people can go

9:53

to my website Justin

9:55

Peters.org and see my

9:57

calendar, but I will

10:00

be all over the

10:02

country this year, by

10:04

God's grace, and several

10:07

internet. national engagements as

10:09

well on international trips.

10:11

So far, Chris, I

10:13

think right now I'm

10:16

scheduled to be in

10:18

Poland, in Austria, in

10:20

June, and then later

10:23

in the year I'll

10:25

be in New Zealand,

10:27

American Samoa, and Fiji,

10:30

I believe. So, wow,

10:32

and by the way,

10:34

I do have a,

10:36

like, probably within 24

10:39

hours, I'll have an

10:41

entirely new. website. So

10:43

you're the first person

10:46

to hear about. So

10:48

it should be live,

10:50

hopefully within the next,

10:53

within the next Earth's

10:55

rotation. I think it

10:57

should be. Well, great.

10:59

Go to Justinfaters.org to

11:02

check that out at

11:04

least by tomorrow or

11:06

the next day and

11:09

you'll see that new

11:11

website. Okay, well, you

11:13

have spoken, I don't

11:16

know how many times,

11:18

but you have certainly

11:20

spoken on the same...

11:22

platform or speaking roster

11:25

with Stephen Lawson at

11:27

conferences. I know that

11:29

you've been on the

11:32

same roster at the

11:34

G3 conference. G3 ministries

11:36

had him regularly preach

11:39

at their conferences. I

11:41

don't even know if

11:43

I've ever been to

11:45

a G3 conference where

11:48

he wasn't on the

11:50

roster. I may be

11:52

misremembering that, but Stephen

11:55

Lawson. has been praised

11:57

by and edified by

11:59

and challenged by Stephen

12:02

Lawson's messages, and he

12:04

tragically got involved in

12:06

an... inappropriate relationship with

12:08

a woman decades his

12:11

junior and he is

12:13

a married man and

12:15

I think that Brother

12:18

Justin will agree with

12:20

me that although this

12:22

adultery this betrayal of

12:24

his marriage is

12:27

a very egregious and

12:29

heartbreaking and disturbing thing.

12:31

I, for one, am

12:33

more grieved by his

12:35

response to being caught

12:37

in the sin and

12:39

offering no public expression

12:41

of repentance and request for

12:44

forgiveness and no submission

12:46

to church leaders. for church

12:48

discipline. But anyway, I'm

12:50

going to let you

12:52

pick up. I'm going to

12:55

let you say anything

12:57

more that you care to

12:59

say about Stephen Lawson

13:01

and then address the

13:03

issues that we face in

13:06

regard to his ministry,

13:08

which has had an enormous

13:10

impact on the body

13:12

of Christ, especially in our

13:15

circles commonly known as

13:17

reformed circles, Calvinistic circles,

13:19

sovereign grace circles, etc. But

13:21

you can continue from

13:23

here on. Okay.

13:26

Yeah, Chris. This is the

13:28

worst thing that I've ever

13:30

seen in our theological circles.

13:32

You know, in the charismatic

13:34

movement, this kind of stuff

13:37

happens all the time. You

13:39

know, the word of faith

13:41

in AR, it's really to

13:43

be expected. And nobody cares

13:45

that people aren't being disciplined.

13:47

No. No. Nobody cares. Nobody

13:49

cares. I mean, in that

13:51

movement, if a man or

13:53

a woman, because they're... They

13:56

have just as many female

13:58

preachers as they do me

14:00

and that's whole other issue.

14:02

In their movement, when a

14:04

preacher does something like this,

14:06

they may come out of

14:08

the preaching saddle for a

14:10

couple of months, maybe, and

14:12

then they're right back in

14:14

it because they always get

14:17

quote unquote restored. But in

14:19

our movement, that's not the

14:21

case. If you do something

14:23

like this in our, and

14:25

not movement, but in our

14:27

theological circles, in the satirical

14:29

reform, high view of God's

14:31

sovereignty and salvation. You do

14:33

this in our circles and

14:36

you're done. You'll never be

14:38

behind the pulpit again. And

14:40

that is if you remain

14:42

in our circles because there

14:44

have been there have been

14:46

reform pastors and preachers and

14:48

evangelists and authors and so

14:50

on who have committed egregious

14:52

scandalous sin that has become

14:55

public who when they want

14:57

to avoid church discipline from

14:59

their colleagues their own elders

15:01

Their their brethren in Christ

15:03

of the same theology they

15:05

have at times just fled

15:07

to People that they would

15:09

at one time called theological

15:11

enemies or at least opponents

15:14

and have aligned themselves with

15:16

those folks because they're given

15:18

an open door Mark Driscoll

15:20

would be a good example

15:22

of that because he had

15:24

once upon a time was

15:26

in our theological orbits At

15:28

least for the most part

15:30

and yeah DA Carson and

15:32

co-authored a book with him

15:35

Yeah, that's that's correct. That's

15:37

correct. That's correct. And he

15:39

had accolades from some notable

15:41

names within our our circles

15:43

sadly so and um and

15:45

then he did all kinds

15:47

of stuff to get himself

15:49

disqualified and even kicked out

15:51

of the X -29

15:54

network and

15:56

all that kind

15:58

of stuff.

16:00

And so he

16:02

just, he just

16:04

changed his theology. He

16:06

just became a

16:09

charismatic Armenian and he was

16:11

welcomed with open arms.

16:13

And so now he's pastoring

16:15

again and he shouldn't

16:17

be. He's unqualified as John

16:19

MacArthur has famously said

16:21

about him. But in

16:23

our circles, that's not the

16:25

case. We draw a hard

16:27

line on those issues and

16:29

rightly so because a pastor,

16:33

Chris, an elder, we are

16:35

held to higher standards. James

16:37

3 -1 says, let not many

16:39

of you desire to become teachers,

16:41

my brother, knowing that we

16:44

will incur a stricter judgment. So

16:46

we are, we are held

16:48

to a higher standard. An elder,

16:50

a pastor is to be

16:52

above reproach. That's one of

16:54

the qualifications for being in ministry.

16:56

You're supposed to be above reproach.

17:00

And Steve Lawson is

17:02

no longer above reproach.

17:04

He has committed

17:06

adultery. And

17:09

Proverbs chapter 6, verses

17:12

30, let me just read 32

17:14

here, Proverbs 6, 32. The

17:16

one who commits adultery with a

17:18

woman is lacking the heart

17:21

of wisdom. He who would destroy

17:23

his soul does it. And

17:25

then verse 33, wounds and

17:27

disgrace he will find and

17:29

his reproach will not be blotted

17:32

out. Now that

17:34

is not to be missed. His reproach

17:36

will not be blotted

17:38

out. This is not

17:40

to say that someone who

17:42

commits adultery has committed the unforgivable

17:44

sin. That's not the unforgivable sin.

17:46

You can be forgiven of it.

17:48

God expends no more anthropomorphic energy,

17:51

if you will, forgiving someone of

17:53

sexual sin than he does any

17:55

other sin. So you can be

17:57

forgiven. You can be restored to

17:59

right. relationship with the local body

18:01

believers, but you

18:03

will never again be above

18:06

reproach. Your approach will not be

18:08

blotted out. You'll

18:10

never again be qualified to

18:12

be behind the pulpit

18:14

because there is something about

18:16

sexual sin, Chris,

18:18

that is different than other

18:20

sin. Other sins are committed outside of

18:22

the body. You know, when I

18:24

rob a bank or something like that,

18:26

you know, that's not

18:29

a lot. Not

18:32

see pain is kind of like preventing me from

18:34

having a career as a banker. Actually,

18:38

nobody would ever guess that you'd

18:40

be coming into that bank with a

18:42

gun underneath your coat. Yeah,

18:44

that's true. I might get it in

18:46

unsuspected, it's always the getaway that's the problem

18:48

for me. So

18:56

Exit with the gun

18:58

pointed at everybody Yeah,

19:00

Put my scooter in

19:02

reverse So

19:06

it's those, you

19:09

know, the other sins

19:11

are committed outside of

19:13

the body. They're external, but

19:15

sexual sin is inside the body.

19:17

The apostle Paul says it. It's

19:19

different. It sexual sin

19:21

leaves a wound

19:23

that other sins just don't

19:26

leave. It leaves us a scar,

19:28

a wound. And again,

19:30

that's not to say that

19:32

you can't be forgiven. You can

19:34

be slate, slate, white, white

19:36

clean, but but it leaves

19:38

a approach, particularly

19:41

for the man in ministry and he'll never

19:43

be qualified to be behind the pulpit

19:45

again. So if Steve Lawson wants to get

19:47

back in the pulpit, he's going to

19:49

have to change his theology. It won't happen

19:51

in our circles. Well,

19:53

can you give us, because people

19:56

are constantly asking

19:58

me for updates on

20:00

Stephen Lawson, and until I

20:02

spoke with you last night,

20:04

although I did have other updates

20:07

trickling in, some of them

20:09

I don't know if I can

20:11

rely upon them as being

20:14

accurate. I think that I jumped

20:16

the gun with posting a

20:18

video on Facebook that I

20:20

found that was offering a

20:22

hope that Stephen Lawson was

20:25

on the right track now in

20:27

a good church, but I think

20:29

that That is probably an exaggeration

20:32

from what I heard from you

20:34

last night. But if you could

20:36

provide us with an update

20:38

on what exactly is going on

20:41

in his life. Yeah, well I

20:43

have not talked with Steve Lawson,

20:45

so, but from my best understanding

20:47

from talking to people who

20:49

do know him well, he

20:51

is attending a church, Presbyterian

20:54

church in Nashville. He's

20:56

living with his living with

20:58

his brother. But somewhere

21:00

in Nashville. So his wife

21:02

has demanded that he leave

21:04

the premises that they shared?

21:07

I don't know. I don't know

21:09

if she demanded that or not

21:11

or he just laughed on that.

21:13

I'm not sure. Okay. So, but

21:15

he's not at home unless

21:18

it's just recently happened.

21:20

So, he's in a Presbyterian

21:22

church, which I'm glad he's in

21:25

a church, but if he were

21:27

truly repentant. He needs to be

21:29

at his own church under the care

21:31

of his own elders. But he

21:33

doesn't have theirs. Well, yeah, that's

21:36

another thing is that a lot of

21:38

people have said that there is

21:40

evidence that Steve Lawson, not only

21:42

was he not an elder at

21:44

Trinity Bible Fellowship, which is a

21:46

church he was preaching at, that

21:48

he wasn't even a member. Now

21:50

I've heard some evidence on both

21:52

sides, some say he was, and

21:55

I don't know. But I do

21:57

know that he was not in

21:59

the older. at Trinity Bible

22:01

Fellowship, and he

22:03

was called the lead

22:06

preacher. And

22:08

Chris, it's one of those

22:10

things like some people have asked

22:12

me, well, how did you

22:14

not know that? Well, as far

22:16

as me, I was never

22:18

close with Steve Lawson. I was

22:20

never able to really engage

22:22

him in conversation. He was always

22:24

very aloof for me. So,

22:26

you could probably put the entirety

22:28

of the direct one -on -one

22:30

conversations that Steve and I have

22:32

had probably within 15 minutes.

22:35

I mean, we just haven't talked

22:37

hardly any one -on -one. But

22:39

as far as checking as to whether

22:41

or not he was an elder at

22:43

his church or a member for that

22:46

matter, it's one of those things like,

22:48

some things are so obvious, I guess,

22:50

or you think are so much a

22:52

given you don't even think to check.

22:54

It's like I've never crossed my mind

22:56

to say to check, I should probably

22:58

check and see if Steve Lawson is

23:00

a member of his church. I've never

23:02

crossed my mind, never crossed my mind

23:04

to see if he was an elder

23:06

at his church. I just assumed that

23:09

he was, and turns out he wasn't.

23:11

He was called the lead preacher, which

23:14

there's no such thing in the

23:16

New Testament as a lead preacher. That's

23:18

a label, a title you're not

23:20

going to find in the Bible. Well,

23:26

there have been different responses

23:29

in regard to his silence.

23:31

Some have said in order

23:33

to give him the benefit

23:35

of the doubt, well, he's

23:37

just following the instruction of

23:40

the elders where he is

23:42

worshiping right now. They are

23:44

telling him at least now

23:46

to stay out of the

23:48

limelight, stay out of the

23:51

spotlight, out of the public

23:53

eye, for what reasons I'm

23:55

not sure, perhaps in their

23:57

minds, until further healing and

23:59

restoration. takes place, but when

24:02

you talk about a person

24:04

of his notoriety,

24:06

which was global, and

24:09

someone who had high positions

24:11

of authority at major

24:13

Christian institutions, who's

24:16

affected the lives originally

24:18

in very positive ways, he's

24:21

affected lives numerically

24:23

in the tens

24:26

of thousands, perhaps even much larger

24:28

than that. I'm not a warrior,

24:30

but I could easily accept that

24:32

as a real figure. It

24:35

is not appropriate for

24:37

a person who has committed

24:39

a sin of that magnitude

24:41

to just disappear off

24:44

the face of the earth. No,

24:47

Chris, it's not. And let's

24:49

just assume that people around him

24:51

did give him that council.

24:53

First thing, to remain silent, first

24:55

thing I would say, that's

24:57

terrible council. And

24:59

he should know better and

25:01

reject that council. That's

25:04

right. That's right. He should reject

25:06

that council, because that's terrible

25:08

council. Next

25:13

to John MacArthur, he was

25:15

one of the most well -known

25:17

names in our circles, a massive

25:19

influence, massive platform. And

25:22

his adultery, he

25:25

has become a stumbling block

25:27

to potentially millions of

25:29

people around the world. When

25:31

this news broke back

25:33

in September, I was getting

25:35

texts from friends of

25:37

mine emails saying, is it true?

25:39

Is this true? And

25:42

people were doubting their

25:44

own salvation. If

25:46

this happened to Steve Lawson,

25:48

can I even believe that I'm

25:51

saved? And doubting

25:53

who to, not knowing who

25:55

they could trust as preachers. If

25:57

you can't trust

25:59

Steve Lawson, who can you trust?

26:01

You know, I thought I could trust

26:03

Steve Lawson. He was, you know, close

26:06

to John MacArthur and

26:08

Wiganier and G3 ministries

26:10

and you would just assume that

26:12

this man was living out what

26:14

he preached and yet he wasn't.

26:17

And so now you've got

26:19

untold numbers of precious believers

26:22

around the world and they

26:24

don't know who they can

26:26

trust, you know. Can I

26:28

trust Justin Peters for that

26:30

matter? You know, it's in

26:32

understandably so. I get it.

26:35

It's a horrible, horrible

26:37

stumbling block. And the

26:40

fact that we are now, what,

26:42

six months out from

26:44

this being made public

26:46

back in September, the

26:49

silence is deafening. You

26:51

know, a number of years ago

26:53

there were a couple of other

26:55

fairly well-known names in our circles

26:57

that also failed morally, Chris,

27:00

and I won't name them

27:02

because, as best I know,

27:04

they've repented. But they were fairly

27:06

well-known. And very shortly

27:09

after their sin was discovered,

27:11

they put out public statements

27:13

with sincere apologies. You

27:16

know, and that's good. That's what

27:18

they should have done. But nothing

27:20

from Steve Lawson

27:22

and he's had

27:24

six months It's

27:27

inexcusable. I cannot Imagine

27:29

a scenario in which his

27:31

silence can be

27:34

justified I just can't

27:36

well when we come back

27:38

from our first commercial break.

27:41

I want you to address

27:43

some things that we and

27:45

the body of Christ in

27:48

general should learn from this.

27:50

And if anybody listening

27:52

has a question of your own

27:54

that you'd like to ask our

27:56

email address is Chris

27:58

Arnsen@gmail.com. RIS, A-R-N-Z-E-N-A-G-M-L-A-S,

28:01

give us your first name at

28:04

least, your city and state, and

28:06

your country of residence,

28:08

and only remain anonymous

28:10

if your question involves

28:13

a personal and private

28:15

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and grace to you, the radio

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A congregation in

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of the

32:10

Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church

32:12

in Comac, Long Island. I

32:14

hold The Iron Sharpens Iron

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Iron Sharpin's Iron Radio. We're now

37:18

back with Justin Peters. We have

37:20

been discussing the heartbreaking

37:22

tragedy of the fall

37:24

of Stephen Lawson and

37:26

his... disappearance from any

37:28

public appearance

37:31

at all. You know, his disappearance

37:33

from the public

37:36

eye, where he has offered

37:38

no request for forgiveness.

37:41

He's offered no

37:43

declaration of repentance.

37:46

He is just, for

37:48

the moment, it seems,

37:50

fallen off the face of the

37:53

earth. We have to learn something

37:55

from this, or we should. Brother Justin,

37:57

and I think one... One of the

37:59

things that we should learn,

38:01

and I'm sure you would

38:03

agree, is that we have

38:05

to be very careful about

38:08

how high we uphold our

38:10

heroes in the faith. I'm

38:12

not saying that Christians shouldn't

38:14

have heroes. We

38:16

should have people that we

38:18

look up to, that we

38:20

learn from, get edified by,

38:22

and encouraged and challenged and

38:25

comforted and educated and nourished.

38:27

Of course, we should be

38:29

in a church where those

38:31

things are happening from our

38:33

own pastors, of course, but

38:35

there's nothing wrong with having

38:37

heroes of the faith, both

38:39

those in heaven and both

38:41

those alive here on the

38:43

earth. But we have to

38:45

be very careful about turning

38:47

these men into idols, don't

38:49

we? We

38:52

do, Chris. We do. And that's

38:54

one of the pitfalls in our evangelical

38:56

world. You know, the secular world

38:58

has its celebrities, Hollywood and whatnot. And

39:01

unfortunately, that same dynamic can

39:03

be found even in our

39:05

circles. You put men up

39:07

on a pedestal and elevate

39:09

them to a position that

39:12

they really should not be

39:14

in. And most of them,

39:16

I can confidently say, don't

39:18

even want to be in.

39:20

I know the well -known

39:22

names in our circles. I

39:24

know John MacArthur. I know

39:27

Vody Balkam and Paul Washer

39:29

and some of those guys.

39:31

And they're good men. They're

39:33

good men. They never asked

39:35

to be in the position

39:37

that they're in, as the

39:39

Lord has seen fit to

39:41

give them a large platform,

39:44

you know, more, more public

39:46

than most. But there is

39:48

that danger. Now, Paul makes

39:50

an interesting statement in 1

39:52

Corinthians 11 .1. He says, you

39:54

are to imitate me just

39:56

as I imitate Christ. We

40:00

can and should imitate those

40:02

people who are our spiritual

40:05

leaders, you know, preachers,

40:08

well-known preachers, in as

40:10

much as they are imitating Christ.

40:12

So we can imitate

40:14

them in as much

40:16

as they are imitating

40:18

Christ, but when they

40:20

prove themselves to not be

40:22

followers of Christ, to

40:24

not be imitating of Christ,

40:27

then we, you know, they... come

40:29

crashing back down to earth

40:31

and we should not of

40:33

course imitate them then. And

40:36

Steve Lawson has sadly shown

40:38

himself to not be

40:40

an imitator of Christ. The

40:42

danger he is in is very

40:44

real. It's not just the

40:46

adultery, Chris. It's it would

40:49

be bad enough for Steve

40:51

if he had just, this

40:53

was like a one-night moment

40:56

of weakness. That would... That would

40:58

have been bad enough, and

41:00

it would have been

41:02

disqualifying for him, ministerially

41:04

speaking. But this went on

41:06

for several years. Now, there's

41:08

some indication that it didn't

41:10

turn physical until late, but

41:12

at bare minimum, it was

41:14

adultery of the heart. for

41:17

several years and Jesus said

41:19

if you look at a

41:21

woman with lust you've committed

41:23

adultery already in your heart

41:25

so he had a bare

41:27

minimum an emotional relationship

41:30

of his committing emotional

41:32

adultery against his wife

41:34

and and with this young woman

41:37

for several years so it's

41:39

it's that extended period of

41:41

sin not only the the sin

41:43

of adultery but also the

41:46

lying. I mean, how many men

41:48

did he have to lie to

41:50

to keep this up? He would

41:52

have to look men like

41:54

John MacArthur and Josh

41:56

Bice and Chris Larson

41:58

at Ligonier. I was just

42:01

about to say R.C. Sproll

42:03

because he was still alive

42:05

when Steve was ministering

42:07

for Ligonier. Yeah, yeah,

42:09

well, yes. Yeah, I've seen

42:12

them on discussion panels at

42:14

conference. Yeah, yeah. Now as

42:16

far as we know this relationship

42:19

was not going on back then

42:21

when all he was alive. So, yeah,

42:23

as far as we know. But it

42:25

is kind of hard to imagine

42:28

how. this kind of behavior started

42:30

when he was you know like

42:32

68 or something it's just at

42:34

any rate but he had to he

42:37

had to lie to many many people

42:39

to keep this up so it was the

42:41

adultery it was the lying and

42:43

my question is where was the convicting

42:46

work of the holy spirit in

42:48

his life how how was he

42:50

not riddled with conviction how was

42:52

it that he could get up

42:54

and preach with such passion and

42:57

such conviction, and yet

42:59

there be no conviction in

43:01

his own life of the

43:03

sin that he was in.

43:05

It's hard for me to

43:07

wrap my mind around. It

43:09

really, really is. It's very

43:12

concerned for Steve Lawson and

43:14

where he is spiritually, I'm

43:16

very, very concerned. And another

43:18

issue I think that we should

43:20

learn from this is the importance

43:23

of vetting brothers in Christ.

43:25

when they are invited into

43:28

our pulpits, when they

43:30

are invited to participate

43:33

in ministry in our

43:35

paratroch organizations, when they

43:38

are being appointed to

43:40

positions of leadership in

43:42

these organizations. One

43:45

thing that I have admired

43:47

about James White of Alpha

43:49

and Omega Ministries

43:51

is that for decades. He

43:53

has been involved

43:55

in outdoor evangelism

43:58

primarily to

44:00

Mormons, but to others as

44:02

well. And there have been

44:04

people who have approached him

44:07

over the years, eager to

44:10

participate with him, to pass

44:12

out tracks and do other

44:14

things in an effort to

44:16

be of assistance to him

44:19

and Alpha and Mega Ministries

44:22

volunteers. And he has

44:24

always asked them immediately, where are

44:26

you a member as far as

44:28

what church are you a member

44:30

of? And he has been told

44:33

on some occasions, I'm not a

44:35

member of any church. He said,

44:37

well, I'm sorry, I don't want

44:39

you to be associating yourself

44:41

publicly with my ministry

44:43

because that is an act

44:45

of rebellion to not be a member

44:48

of a local church. Please go

44:50

search for a biblically faithful church

44:52

and join it. And then the

44:55

next time I see you, I'll

44:57

be more than happy to hand

44:59

you a fistful attracts and we

45:02

can go out together. But this

45:04

is very important, isn't

45:06

it? Because it's more

45:08

than just an individual

45:10

when that individual's name

45:12

and presence is attached to

45:15

an organization like

45:17

a organization like a... a church

45:19

or a paratroch ministry

45:21

that may have thousands

45:23

of people depending upon

45:25

it for spiritual nourishment?

45:27

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely,

45:30

Chris. Any ministry must be

45:32

connected to a local church.

45:34

I'm an evangelist. I travel

45:36

and preach and teach across

45:39

the United States around

45:41

the world. And my ministry

45:43

has always been closely connected.

45:46

to a local church where I'm

45:48

an active member. I have oversight

45:50

of my ministry from my own

45:53

elders. My board of directors right

45:55

now is comprised of two pastors

45:58

and a deacon and they are... very,

46:00

you know, they know exactly where I

46:02

am. They know exactly what I'm

46:04

doing. They know finances of the ministry

46:06

and everything, but it's your ministry.

46:08

If you're in ministry, it's got to

46:10

be coming out of a local

46:12

church. In fact, in the last six

46:15

months, I've been, well, seven months,

46:17

I guess now, since last August, I've

46:19

been an elder at my own

46:21

church. So I'm a big believer in

46:23

that. I don't believe in these

46:25

long ranger Christians and doing ministry.

46:27

And I've seen

46:29

far too much of that. I intentionally

46:31

limit my travel on the road

46:34

so that I can be an

46:36

active part of my church. I want

46:39

that. I want that accountability. And

46:41

it's a very dangerous thing for

46:43

an evangelist or some somebody in

46:45

ministry to be on the road

46:48

all the time and never be

46:50

at their own church and not have

46:52

that accountability, not have that oversight. Now,

46:55

another thing I believe we could learn

46:57

from this is

46:59

to dismiss,

47:02

denounce, reject

47:04

the false teaching

47:06

that is very prevalent,

47:09

extremely prevalent in the

47:11

body of Christ, that

47:13

sin is sin is

47:15

sin. And we should

47:17

never treat some

47:19

sins as

47:22

a more grievous

47:24

act than others. And

47:27

that no matter

47:29

who commits any sin,

47:32

we should always be

47:34

immediately ready to forgive

47:37

and forget. And

47:39

I can even

47:41

recall someone that I know who,

47:45

although I don't believe there

47:48

was an actual completion

47:50

of any kind of sexual

47:52

act, there was

47:54

adultery of the heart going

47:56

on, as you were mentioning

47:58

before, and the man was... was

48:00

a pastor, was dismissed

48:02

from his position, and

48:05

although he was later after

48:07

being under the oversight of

48:09

pastors, shown to be a

48:12

man truly repentant, he

48:14

was restored to membership

48:17

in full good standing,

48:19

but not to an office. And

48:22

there were people that also

48:24

knew this man who would

48:26

say how horrible that was.

48:28

Who are you to condemn

48:31

this man? Because you're

48:33

a sinner too. We've all

48:35

sined. And therefore, he should

48:38

have been allowed back

48:40

into that pulpit. And

48:42

this is not a biblical

48:44

way of thinking. I mean,

48:46

if you drive it to

48:48

its logical conclusions,

48:51

you would have to say that

48:53

a pedophile... is no more

48:55

of a sinner than somebody who

48:58

is eating too much at the

49:00

church picnic you know right but

49:02

if you want to comment on that

49:04

yeah sure so you know sin

49:06

is sin you know once if

49:09

you've committed one sin you've

49:11

all sins are just like

49:13

the other sins well yes

49:15

and no that all sin is

49:17

sin in the sense that all

49:19

sin is sin in the sense

49:21

that If you break one of

49:23

God's commandments, you've broken them

49:26

all, that is true. You

49:28

commit one sin, and that is

49:30

worthy of eternity in hell.

49:32

That's true. I agree with

49:34

that, because we have sin

49:36

against an infinite eternal God,

49:38

and the punishment is also

49:40

infinite and eternal. But

49:43

not all sins have

49:45

the same consequences. Different

49:47

sins do have varying

49:49

levels of consequences. And, you

49:51

know, I don't know, someone cuts me off for

49:53

a, you know, a deer runs in front

49:56

of me, and in a moment of panic,

49:58

I let fly four legs. word. Is

50:00

that a sin? Yeah, it is. Does

50:03

that have the same consequences

50:05

as me being unfaithful to

50:07

my wife in breaking the

50:10

marriage covenant and bringing reproach

50:12

upon the name of Christ?

50:14

No, obviously not. So different

50:17

sins do have

50:19

different consequences. So it's

50:21

not, it's a cop-out to just

50:23

say, oh, well, sin, sin, you

50:25

know, you know, just confess it.

50:27

and move on with your life

50:29

and everything's back to normal. No,

50:32

it's not back to normal. If

50:34

you have a history of being

50:36

inappropriate with children, in

50:38

my book, that's the lowest of the

50:41

low, and it's hard for me

50:43

to control my anger, even when

50:45

I think about that kind of

50:47

thing. But can you be forgiven?

50:50

Yes, you can. Does that mean I'm

50:52

going to trust you around kids?

50:54

either my own or in the church, nope,

50:57

sure not. You know, you forfeited

50:59

that right. You will be watched

51:01

like a hawk. So, yeah, so in this

51:03

kind of sin, that Steve

51:06

Lawson has committed, it carries

51:08

with it permanent

51:10

disqualification from ministry. I

51:13

want Steve to repent. I

51:15

want him to be restored

51:17

to the fellowship of a local

51:20

church, his own. It's what it

51:22

needs to be his own church.

51:24

But has that happened yet? No,

51:26

apparently not, and sadly not. Okay,

51:28

let me take one more, or should

51:31

I say, our first question from a

51:33

listener, before we go to our midway

51:35

break. Ted in Moundville, Alabama,

51:37

says I was struck by

51:39

Chris's introduction, and particularly how

51:42

he addressed the issue of

51:44

Steve Lawson's almost complete silence.

51:46

Actually, I don't think it's

51:48

almost complete. I think it

51:50

is complete silence. following the

51:53

revelation of his sin. Specifically,

51:55

Mr. Lawson has been the

51:57

beneficiary of legions of book.

52:00

buyers, conference attendees, and

52:02

seminary students, through whom

52:04

he acquired an almost Olympian

52:07

status in reform circles, and

52:09

by all counts, quite a

52:12

comfortable living, to say the least.

52:14

One might reasonably expect

52:16

that he would have something

52:18

to say to that crowd before six

52:20

months at a lapse, but that

52:22

has not been our good

52:24

fortune. Surprisingly, some of his biggest

52:27

fans have claimed that Steve

52:29

does not owe us an

52:31

explanation or an apology. I'm

52:33

wondering how Justin Peters would

52:36

assess these matters. To what

52:38

extent does Steve owe his followers

52:40

an apology, an explanation,

52:43

or anything else? And why

52:45

or why not? That's interesting

52:47

that he says some of his

52:49

biggest fans have said that he

52:52

doesn't owe us an apology. I

52:54

have not heard anybody say

52:56

that of any prominent status.

52:58

But I'm actually going to have

53:01

to have you answer that when

53:03

we come back from the break,

53:05

because we've already reached

53:08

the time when we have to go

53:10

to our midway break. And if

53:12

you'd like to join Ted and

53:14

others with a question of

53:16

your own. Send it to

53:19

Chris Ornsen@gmail.com. Don't go away.

53:21

We're going to be right

53:23

back. present, emeritus and professor

53:25

of systematic and applied theology

53:27

at Greenville Presbyterian Theologic Seminary.

53:30

Every Christian who's serious about

53:32

the deformed faith and the

53:34

Westminster standards should have and

53:36

use the eight-volume commentary on

53:38

the theology and ethics of

53:40

the Westminster larger catechism titled

53:43

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53:45

Moorcraft. It is much more

53:47

than an exposition of the

53:49

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53:51

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53:54

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53:56

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53:58

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54:03

Coming Georgia and I

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urge everyone looking for

54:07

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54:09

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54:11

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54:13

For details on the

54:15

eight volume commentary go

54:17

to Westminster commentary.com, Westminster

54:19

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54:22

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54:30

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my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one

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56:34

host of the ReformRookie .com website. I want

56:36

you to know that if you enjoy

56:38

listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show

56:40

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56:42

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56:44

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56:49

missing a show or a special guest

56:51

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56:53

work. Just subscribe on the iTunes app

56:55

and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

56:57

show at any time, day or night. Please

56:59

be sure to also give it a

57:01

good review and pass it along to anyone

57:03

who would benefit from the teaching and

57:05

the many solidly reformed guests that Chris

57:07

Arndson has on the show. Truth is

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so hard to come by these days

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so don't waste your time with fluff

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57:22

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57:25

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57:27

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57:29

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57:31

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finally, if you're looking to worship

57:46

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57:48

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57:50

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57:52

Baptist Church in Corm, New York.

57:54

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avigio and thanks

57:56

for listening. Greetings,

58:03

this is Brian McLachler,

58:05

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We can be reached

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But today, I want

58:31

to introduce you to

58:33

my senior pastor, Doug

58:35

McMaster's, of New High

58:37

Park Baptist Church on

58:39

Long Island. Former director

58:41

of pastoral correspondence had

58:43

graced to you, the

58:45

radio ministry of John

58:47

MacArthur. In the film,

58:49

Cherie it's a fire.

58:51

The Olympic gold medalist

58:53

runner Eric LaBelle remarked

58:55

that he felt God's

58:57

pleasure when he ran.

58:59

The news effort sprang

59:01

from the gifts and

59:03

calling of God. He

59:06

sensed that same God-given

59:08

pleasure when ministering the

59:10

word and helping others

59:12

gained a deeper knowledge

59:14

and love for God.

59:16

that love starts with

59:18

the wonderful news that

59:20

the Lord Jesus Christ

59:22

is a Savior who

59:24

died for sinners and

59:26

that God forgives all

59:28

who come to Him

59:30

in repentance, trusting solely

59:32

in Christ to deliver

59:34

them. I would be

59:36

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59:38

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59:40

ministering to you if

59:42

you live in the

59:44

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59:54

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love with each other,

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passionate for Christ, committed

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support at Einstein Radio.com. If you want

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it's compatible with what I believe,

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your church, power church, ministry, your

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business, private practice law firm, medical

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Now, last but not least,

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banning the entire globe of

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1:08:49

now we're back with Justin

1:08:51

Peters to continue and finalize

1:08:53

our discussion on Stephen Lawson's

1:08:55

fall. And we had an

1:08:57

email from Ted in Mountville,

1:08:59

Alabama, who is basically asking

1:09:01

you if you think Steve

1:09:03

Lawson owes his followers an

1:09:05

apology or explanation. or anything

1:09:07

else. Obviously, you really already

1:09:09

answered that in the beginning,

1:09:11

but maybe you want to

1:09:13

be more specific in your

1:09:15

answer as to why. Yes,

1:09:17

well, he's led so many

1:09:19

people astray. He's had such

1:09:21

a public ministry, public sin,

1:09:23

requires public repentance. Chris, and

1:09:25

I've said the same thing

1:09:27

for others that I've confronted.

1:09:30

Binney, Kenneth Copeland, Paul White,

1:09:32

you name I've done several

1:09:34

videos calling them to repentance

1:09:36

and I've said that public

1:09:38

teaching is open to public

1:09:40

critique. Public sin requires public

1:09:42

repentance and it's the same

1:09:44

in our camp, you know,

1:09:46

when one of our own

1:09:48

does it, the same truth

1:09:50

applies to them too. So

1:09:52

it's, I can't even wrap

1:09:54

my mind around not wanting...

1:09:56

to do that. Oh, you

1:09:58

know, does he have... the

1:10:00

care and concern for all

1:10:02

of the untold numbers of people

1:10:04

that he has led astray,

1:10:07

that he has deceived, that

1:10:09

he has become a stumbling

1:10:11

block too. I mean, I

1:10:14

can't even wrap my mind

1:10:16

around that. You know, if I

1:10:18

had done something like this, Paris

1:10:20

the thought, I can't imagine

1:10:23

not wanting to apologize, but

1:10:25

I don't know. It speaks

1:10:27

to, I'm afraid. of how

1:10:29

seared his conscience is. Because

1:10:31

I don't, if it were me

1:10:33

and people told me, hey, you

1:10:36

probably shouldn't say anything

1:10:38

publicly, don't offer a public

1:10:40

apology, I would do it

1:10:42

anyway. Because that's just the

1:10:44

thing to do. Or at least,

1:10:46

and perhaps you could agree or

1:10:49

disagree with me, if he's not

1:10:51

going to make a public

1:10:53

apology in the sense that

1:10:56

he's on... a video recording

1:10:58

or something or an audio

1:11:00

recording or even just a

1:11:02

written statement. He should

1:11:05

go to people like

1:11:07

John MacArthur and Burke

1:11:10

Parsons of Ligonier Ministries

1:11:12

and others and ask

1:11:14

them for forgiveness and

1:11:17

ask them to report to

1:11:19

the public what they

1:11:21

conversed about in regard

1:11:23

to his Yeah,

1:11:26

at bare minimum that and maybe

1:11:28

perhaps he has had contact with

1:11:30

some of the heads of these

1:11:33

ministries. I'm not sure. Well, the

1:11:35

last time I saw a recent

1:11:37

video with John MacArthur when he

1:11:40

was addressing this, he had not

1:11:42

received anything like that. Yeah. The

1:11:44

best of my knowledge as of

1:11:46

this recording, there has not

1:11:48

been a meaningful apology

1:11:51

to anyone, to the

1:11:53

best of my knowledge.

1:11:55

And that's just... incomprehensible

1:11:57

for me. Well we have... A

1:12:00

friend of mine, Alex Wright,

1:12:02

I usually don't give the

1:12:04

full name of listeners who

1:12:07

send in questions, but Alex

1:12:09

happens to be the founder

1:12:11

of a ministry called Vessels

1:12:14

for Christ in Coconut Creek,

1:12:16

Florida. And so I want

1:12:18

to encourage people to explore

1:12:21

that ministry, but Alex asks,

1:12:23

regarding the Steve Lawson situation,

1:12:25

can just in touch... on

1:12:28

the importance of being open

1:12:30

and transparent with your sins

1:12:32

to the people you address.

1:12:35

And he says, I find

1:12:37

this lacking from what I

1:12:39

had listened to by Steve

1:12:42

in the past. And that

1:12:44

is an interesting question slash

1:12:46

statement because... I would have

1:12:49

to go back to listening

1:12:51

to Steve, and I really

1:12:53

don't want to do that

1:12:56

right now. But he makes

1:12:58

a point. I don't know

1:13:00

if I've ever heard him

1:13:03

being self-debasing and humble. He

1:13:05

may have in a general

1:13:07

sense used the slogans of

1:13:10

rural sinners, but do you

1:13:12

have any comments on that?

1:13:14

We're a number of months

1:13:17

removed from it and that

1:13:19

is something I've heard from

1:13:21

a lot of people that

1:13:24

one of the things that

1:13:26

people have been struck by

1:13:28

who have been around him

1:13:31

is his arrogance and a

1:13:33

lack of humility and like

1:13:35

I said I wasn't around

1:13:38

him enough personally just one-on-one

1:13:40

but I kind of the

1:13:42

intangible stuff. I got that

1:13:45

sense from him as did

1:13:47

others, but now it's being

1:13:49

confirmed by people who actually

1:13:52

did have direct one-on-one interactions

1:13:54

with him. That's one of

1:13:56

the common refrains that I

1:13:59

hear is... and arrogance about

1:14:01

him, of pridefulness and lack

1:14:03

of humility. And so that,

1:14:06

and that should not be

1:14:08

said for someone in ministry.

1:14:10

That's, you should expect

1:14:13

the opposite of that. Well,

1:14:15

I want to plug Alex's

1:14:17

website for Vessels for Christ.org.

1:14:20

Vessels for Christ.org. Please pray

1:14:22

for him as he is

1:14:24

planning a number of trips

1:14:27

this year. So, thank you

1:14:29

for the excellent question

1:14:31

comment, Alex. I'll take

1:14:33

one more question about

1:14:35

the Steve Lawson tragedy,

1:14:38

and then we'll move on to

1:14:40

Paula White. So, sorry folks, I

1:14:42

can only take one more

1:14:45

of your questions. Jordan, an

1:14:47

old Westbury Long Island,

1:14:49

asks, in your opinion, what

1:14:51

should we do with all

1:14:53

of our Stephen Lawson books?

1:14:55

of video recordings of

1:14:57

his sermons and participation

1:15:00

in conferences and documentaries.

1:15:02

Should we delete them

1:15:05

from our computers? Should

1:15:07

we throw up the

1:15:09

books away? Should we burn them?

1:15:12

Do you have any ideas? Yeah,

1:15:14

I'm actually really glad

1:15:16

that question was asked. So,

1:15:19

yeah, throw them away. You can

1:15:21

get the same truth from

1:15:23

other... venues, other resources, other

1:15:25

men who actually are qualified to

1:15:27

be doing what they're doing. So

1:15:30

we now know that he was

1:15:32

never qualified to be in the

1:15:34

position that he is in. And so

1:15:36

that brings a stain on everything

1:15:38

that he has written and preached.

1:15:40

Has he written and preached truth?

1:15:42

Absolutely. But you can get that

1:15:45

same truth from someone else. And

1:15:47

my fear is, you know, I

1:15:49

don't want someone 10, 15,

1:15:51

20 plus years from now. coming across

1:15:53

Steve Lawson books and picking it up

1:15:55

and start reading it and then they're,

1:15:57

you know, they're learning and they're being

1:15:59

edified. and then all of a

1:16:01

sudden they see on Google,

1:16:04

they discover where Steve Lawson

1:16:06

did this and disqualified himself.

1:16:08

And so now that brings,

1:16:10

it's just the reproach that

1:16:12

it brings upon Christ continues.

1:16:14

And he can, he can,

1:16:16

by keeping these books out

1:16:18

and circulating them and saying,

1:16:20

oh, you can still read

1:16:22

the books, well, then he

1:16:24

continues to be a stumbling

1:16:26

block for people. So just

1:16:28

throw them away. You can

1:16:30

get the same truth from

1:16:32

other resources, other men. Some

1:16:34

assume it on the way.

1:16:36

I'm assuming that you think

1:16:38

that all of the Christian

1:16:40

power church organizations who have

1:16:42

Steve in their archives of

1:16:45

speaking engagements, conferences, and all

1:16:47

of those who have created

1:16:49

documentaries with Steve, they've got

1:16:51

to either do some editing,

1:16:53

and get him out of

1:16:55

all of those venues or

1:16:57

just delete them from existence.

1:16:59

I agree. Yeah, and as

1:17:01

best I know those ministries

1:17:03

are doing that. Really? I'm,

1:17:05

yeah, as far, yeah. Grazest

1:17:07

to you and TMS, they've,

1:17:09

they've scrubbed all of, excuse

1:17:11

me, Steve loss and stuff.

1:17:13

You know, Todd Freel, wretched

1:17:15

radio, he's, he's had a

1:17:17

number of. things with Steve

1:17:19

Lawson. All of those videos

1:17:21

are scrubbed. In fact, a

1:17:23

couple months ago, I stumbled

1:17:26

upon one on the Wretched

1:17:28

Radio YouTube channel and that

1:17:30

had Steve Lawson. I texted

1:17:32

it to Todd. He said,

1:17:34

oh, wow, thank you. He

1:17:36

said, I thought we got

1:17:38

all of them. And here's

1:17:40

one that he missed. So

1:17:42

it got rid of that.

1:17:44

Now, I can't speak for

1:17:46

Ligon. I think Steve has

1:17:48

gone from all the Ligonier

1:17:50

stuff. I know with G3.

1:17:52

He's gone from all of

1:17:54

their stuff. So I guess

1:17:56

almost every panel discussion they

1:17:58

ever had. is gone. Yeah,

1:18:00

yeah, I mean, yeah, or edited

1:18:03

out, but it's, it's, I

1:18:05

mean, that's a whole other

1:18:07

consequence of his sin

1:18:09

is the heartache that he's

1:18:12

caused these good ministries. And

1:18:14

I've been in, I don't

1:18:16

know, two or three, maybe

1:18:19

four documentaries

1:18:21

with Steve Lawson. No,

1:18:23

we weren't like side by

1:18:25

side, but... but we were each

1:18:28

interviewed and those interviews are

1:18:30

put in the same documentary

1:18:32

and the most recently the

1:18:34

cessationist documentary I was in

1:18:36

it so was Steve Lawson

1:18:38

and they had to pay someone

1:18:40

to go in and edit and

1:18:43

edit him out and I think

1:18:45

they're trying to replace him with

1:18:47

someone else so you know but

1:18:49

they're doing it they're doing their

1:18:51

due diligence at their own expense

1:18:53

I might add so you know it's boy

1:18:56

the The ripple effects of Steve

1:18:58

Sen are far and wide.

1:19:00

He's caused a lot of

1:19:02

people, a lot of harm.

1:19:05

And let me say this,

1:19:07

the person who's been forgotten

1:19:10

in all this is his wife.

1:19:12

Yes, I feel, I feel orally

1:19:14

for her. Yes. And I

1:19:16

don't, you know, it seems

1:19:18

like she's been kind of

1:19:21

neglected in this and I,

1:19:23

she's, she's the, the main person

1:19:25

that he is harmed that he

1:19:28

is sent against next to Christ

1:19:30

himself and then followed

1:19:32

and then followed by his

1:19:34

children I believe he does have

1:19:36

children doesn't he he does yes

1:19:39

I don't know how many but yes

1:19:41

he does well I don't want

1:19:43

people to think that my guest and

1:19:45

I are heartless I think we

1:19:47

should all pray for the repentance

1:19:49

of Stephen Lawson and be

1:19:52

able to If we saw him

1:19:54

somewhere in public, embrace

1:19:56

him as a brother,

1:19:58

obviously we don't. after

1:20:00

what has been said that

1:20:02

he should be restored to

1:20:05

a position of authority or

1:20:07

prominence, but he can be

1:20:09

welcomed and restored back into

1:20:11

the membership of a Bible-believing

1:20:14

church if he does indeed

1:20:16

demonstrate credible repentance. And so

1:20:18

I think we should all

1:20:20

pray to that end. And

1:20:23

I will keep you folks

1:20:25

updated if I hear anything.

1:20:27

about new news about Steve

1:20:29

Lawson and the days, weeks,

1:20:32

months, and years ahead. Okay,

1:20:34

now we're going to switch

1:20:36

gears to pull a white

1:20:38

and I think I'm going

1:20:41

to take an early commercial

1:20:43

break so I don't have

1:20:45

to interrupt you in the

1:20:48

midst of a sentence. So

1:20:50

this will be the last

1:20:52

commercial break that we have.

1:20:54

And if you want to

1:20:57

join us with a question

1:20:59

about Paula White, the arch

1:21:01

heretic, who has the ear

1:21:03

of the President of the

1:21:06

United States, Donald Trump, who

1:21:08

has been appointed to a

1:21:10

White House faith office, much

1:21:12

to the dismay of many

1:21:15

people who may be very

1:21:17

enthusiastic and excited about the

1:21:19

election of our President and

1:21:21

seeing some of the wonderful

1:21:24

things that he is accomplishing.

1:21:26

It is like a punch

1:21:28

to the gut to know

1:21:31

that he has appointed this

1:21:33

woman who actually could be

1:21:35

accurately described as satanic to

1:21:37

a position of public awareness

1:21:40

like the White House Faith

1:21:42

Office, but we'll be taking

1:21:44

your questions about Paul White

1:21:46

at ChrisArnsen@gmail.com. Chris Arnsen@gmail.com. Don't

1:21:49

go away. We're going to

1:21:51

be right back. I'm

1:22:07

Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church,

1:22:10

a Christ-centered gospel-driven church, looking to

1:22:12

spread the gospel in the southwest

1:22:14

portion of Long Island, New York,

1:22:16

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1:22:18

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1:22:22

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1:23:36

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the NASB is my Bible

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the NASB is my

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is my Bible of

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choice. I'm Matt Tarr,

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pastor of High Point Baptist Church

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in Largeville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is

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my Bible of choice. Here's

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a great way for your

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NASBible .com. That's NASBible .com to

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place your order. This

1:27:55

is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace

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Church at Franklin, here in

1:27:59

the beautiful state of... Tennessee. Our

1:28:01

congregation is one of a

1:28:03

growing number of churches who

1:28:05

love and support Iron Sharpen's

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Iron Radio financially. Grace Church

1:28:09

at Franklin is an independent,

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autonomous body of believers who

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strives to clearly declare the

1:28:15

whole Council of God as

1:28:17

revealed in scripture through the

1:28:19

person and work of our

1:28:21

Lord Jesus Christ. And of

1:28:23

course the end of on

1:28:25

which we strive is the

1:28:27

glory of God. If you

1:28:29

live near Franklin, Tennessee, and

1:28:32

Franklin is just south of

1:28:34

Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or

1:28:36

you are visiting this area,

1:28:39

or you have friends and

1:28:41

loved ones nearby, we hope

1:28:44

you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshipping our

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God and safety. Please feel

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free to contact me if

1:28:54

you have more questions about

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Grace Church at Franklin. O.R.G.

1:28:59

This is Pastor Bill

1:29:01

Sasser wishing you all

1:29:03

the richest blessings of

1:29:05

our sovereign Lord, God,

1:29:07

Savior and King, Jesus

1:29:10

Christ, today and always.

1:29:12

I'm Simon O'Mahani,

1:29:14

Pastor of Trinity

1:29:16

Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle,

1:29:18

Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland,

1:29:21

the Lord and his sovereign

1:29:23

providence has called me to

1:29:25

shepherd this new and growing

1:29:28

congregation here in Cumberland County.

1:29:30

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold

1:29:32

the Second London Baptist Confession.

1:29:35

We embrace congregational church

1:29:37

government, and we are committed to preaching

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the full Council of God's Word for

1:29:41

the edification of believers, the salvation

1:29:44

of the lost, and the glory of our

1:29:46

triune God. We are also devoted to living

1:29:48

out the one another commands of scripture,

1:29:51

loving. encouraging and serving each other

1:29:53

as the body of Christ. In our worship

1:29:55

we sing Psalms and the great hymns of

1:29:57

the faith, and we gather around the

1:29:59

Lord's table. every Sunday.

1:30:01

We would love

1:30:04

for you to

1:30:07

visit and worship

1:30:09

with us. You

1:30:12

can find our

1:30:15

details at t-r-b-carlile.org. That's

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t-r-b-carlile.org. God willing. We'll

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see you soon. I

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hold the Iron Sharpens

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Iron Radio Program hosted

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by my long-time friend

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and brother Chris Arnsen

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in the highest esteem

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1:32:01

Well, welcome back, Justin Peters.

1:32:04

If you could give our

1:32:06

listeners a summary description of

1:32:08

who Paula White is, and

1:32:11

did I go overboard, did

1:32:13

I go over the top

1:32:16

in calling her an arch

1:32:18

heretic and satanic? No, you

1:32:21

did not, Chris. That was

1:32:23

a very apt, concise description.

1:32:26

Paula White is a false

1:32:28

teacher. She's been around for

1:32:30

a quarter century or more.

1:32:33

She was really launched into

1:32:35

the spotlight when T.D. Jake's

1:32:38

asked her to preach at

1:32:40

the Woman Thou Art Loosed

1:32:43

Conference. T.D. Jake's is himself

1:32:45

a word faith heretic. He's

1:32:47

a modulus, doesn't even believe

1:32:50

in the Trinity. And so

1:32:52

he's a one that kind

1:32:55

of put her in the

1:32:57

big times of spotlight. And

1:33:00

she's had a there is

1:33:02

a D at the end

1:33:04

of that, right? Woman now

1:33:07

art loose. Yes, I'm sorry.

1:33:09

Yeah, I guess, forgive me

1:33:12

if I did not enunciate.

1:33:14

That aren't loose. So, yeah,

1:33:17

so she's had her own

1:33:19

television program for 25 years,

1:33:22

I think now, and she's

1:33:24

had a friendship with Donald

1:33:26

Trump. going back to the

1:33:29

early 2000s. This is something

1:33:31

that, yeah, yeah, I remember

1:33:34

watching Donald Trump on her

1:33:36

television program, Paula White, today,

1:33:39

back in the early 2000,

1:33:41

2004 or 2005. Was he

1:33:43

the conservative back then? Trump,

1:33:46

I mean, maybe economically, but

1:33:48

not, you know, never, not

1:33:51

socially, certainly, but. So they've

1:33:53

had a long time friendship.

1:33:56

It did not begin with

1:33:58

his first administration. But she

1:34:00

is a word of faith heretic

1:34:03

the health and wealth prosperity gospel

1:34:05

see teaches that It's always God's

1:34:07

well to be wealthy. It's always

1:34:10

God's will to be healed if you

1:34:12

need a miracle so seed in other

1:34:14

words give her money if you have

1:34:16

cancer give her money God will heal

1:34:19

you I cannot tell you how many

1:34:21

times I've heard her teach that

1:34:23

kind of a thing She doesn't

1:34:25

hide it She's very open about

1:34:27

it She claims that God speaks to

1:34:29

her all the time. She prophesied

1:34:31

that Donald Trump would win a

1:34:33

second consecutive term, not just a

1:34:36

second term, but a second consecutive

1:34:38

term. So it was a false

1:34:40

prophecy because he lost to Biden

1:34:42

the last night. Right, right. Yeah. And

1:34:44

I've heard some say, well, he really

1:34:46

won and the election was stolen.

1:34:48

Well, okay, let's let's go there.

1:34:50

I'll grant. I think there was

1:34:52

some shenanigans that went on the

1:34:54

2020 election, but if... If God was really

1:34:57

speaking to her and all these others,

1:34:59

not like she was alone, I mean,

1:35:01

she joined the course of, I don't

1:35:03

know, probably about a thousand profits that

1:35:05

also prophesied the same thing. If God

1:35:07

was speaking to them, God would have

1:35:09

said, hey guys and gals, Donald Trump's

1:35:12

going to win the election, but

1:35:14

it's going to be stolen through

1:35:16

broken water mains in Atlanta and

1:35:18

ballot dumps at 2 AM and

1:35:20

rigged dominion voting machines and all

1:35:22

that kind of stuff. None of

1:35:24

them said anything of the

1:35:26

sort. So, you know, they're

1:35:29

just complete and total

1:35:31

frauds in charlatans. She

1:35:33

claims that she's been to

1:35:35

heaven into the throne room

1:35:37

of God. And Chris, that is

1:35:39

a lie. That is a lie. The

1:35:42

Apostle Paul in St. Corinthians

1:35:44

12 was talking about this man

1:35:46

who was caught up into the

1:35:48

third heaven. and he heard words

1:35:50

that are inexpressible that man is

1:35:53

not permitted to speak. He was

1:35:55

speaking of himself. Why do you

1:35:57

think he was anonymous when he did

1:35:59

that? Any thought? anonymous? Well, I

1:36:01

mean, he didn't identify himself, although