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80 at talkspace.com. I'm in terms

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1:32

Zone Media. Welcome

1:36

to It Could Happen Here, a podcast. increasingly

1:39

well named as as the days

1:41

go on i am your host

1:43

bia wong and it occurs

1:46

to me over the course

1:48

of the many many many many

1:50

many union episodes we've done in

1:52

this podcast we haven't really done

1:54

much coverage of just straight up

1:56

how do you do a strike

1:58

so today we are going to be covering a a pretty

2:00

long running strike we're gonna say how many

2:02

days it's been going it's unclear when this episode

2:05

is going to come out so who fucking

2:07

knows how long it'll be when when When you

2:09

hear it, but yeah, with me to talk

2:11

about this strike is Spencer Jordan, who is

2:13

a rank and file member of the Urban

2:15

Ore Workers Union. Spencer, welcome to the show.

2:17

Hey, thank you so much for having me.

2:19

Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you

2:21

about this. So this is, what day is

2:23

it today? I should know this. April

2:25

15th. As of

2:28

April 15th, you've been on strike

2:30

for 25 days. Yeah, that's

2:32

just about right. Yeah, it started

2:34

on the 22nd of March.

2:36

We held our strike vote like

2:39

a... 12 days before we

2:41

actually went out on the picket

2:43

line and won that strike

2:45

vote with 14 yeses, a single

2:47

no, and I think four

2:50

abstentions. That's pretty good. Yeah, so

2:52

93 % of those voting voted

2:54

yes. Yeah, which,

2:56

good ratios, good ratios. I think,

2:58

like, typically you want

3:00

at least, like, mid -70s. Mm -hmm.

3:03

If we're going to do this kind

3:05

of thing. But, you know, as

3:07

listeners to the show, hopefully understand

3:09

by now you can't just like call

3:11

a strike and have it happen.

3:13

You know, you have to do a

3:15

whole bunch of organizing. So I

3:17

want to kind of start at

3:20

the dynamics of the organizing of how

3:22

this shop got going, because this

3:24

is a pretty small shop from

3:26

the sounds of it. And yeah. Yeah.

3:28

So do you want to talk

3:30

a bit about what the basic process

3:32

of getting this organizing started was

3:34

like and what the sort of

3:37

like social mapping looked like and stuff

3:39

like that? Yeah, so the organization

3:41

process started around like a year

3:43

and a half before we actually had

3:45

our unionization vote, which was actually,

3:47

we had the vote in March

3:49

and we got our win on April

3:51

7th, two years ago. So we

3:54

actually just had our union two -year

3:56

birthday. Oh, happy birthday. But

3:58

yeah, so preceding that was like...

4:00

I said, about a year and

4:03

a half of organizing that involved,

4:05

you know, the typical thing of

4:07

like one -on -one conversations with like

4:09

all the staff making the, you

4:11

know, color -coded spreadsheet and

4:13

everything, which all of this was not

4:15

my purview. I'm a lot more involved

4:18

now than I was at the start

4:20

of the process. And I

4:22

was approached by like one of

4:24

our lead organizers really shortly after

4:26

being hired just to kind of,

4:28

you know. read the dipstick as

4:30

to, like, my sentiments about it

4:32

and whatnot. I was pretty on

4:34

board right away. I mean, you

4:36

know, like, I'm from the Bay

4:38

Area, so... There are only two

4:41

types of people from the Bay

4:43

Area. We wouldn't be having one

4:45

of them on the show. Yeah,

4:47

exactly, exactly. So I'm of the

4:49

latter type. So, you know, being

4:51

pro -union isn't, like, a foreign thing

4:53

to my background. Uh -huh, uh -huh.

4:55

You don't look like a tech

4:57

worker. Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah,

4:59

especially, like, my family's from the

5:01

Midwest and everything. So there's, yeah,

5:04

my aunt actually just learned that

5:06

she was, like, a clerk working

5:08

for the railroads back in the

5:10

day when, like, railroad jobs were

5:12

still, like, a big thing you

5:14

could, like, have. Anyways. But, yeah,

5:16

so I had had my, like,

5:19

own sort of, like, just observations

5:21

of, like, whoa, like, what's going

5:23

on in the workplace? Aside

5:25

from, like, my own just, like... to

5:28

thinking, you know, more worker

5:30

power is better. Also

5:32

kind of seeing like some of

5:34

the factors that precipitated it.

5:36

Like, for instance, like when I

5:38

was hired here, I was

5:40

hired in my interview. It was

5:42

the one of the owners

5:44

and the manager of my department.

5:46

My department being salvage and

5:48

recycling department of Urbanor, which is

5:50

kind of like not super

5:52

public facing. We go to the

5:55

dump and like root around.

5:57

through the garbage, like hyenas or

5:59

whatever, to get stuff for

6:01

the store. But that

6:03

manager, you know, he was

6:05

there in the interview,

6:07

and we got to the

6:09

portion where the owner

6:11

explained what at -will employment

6:13

is. Oh, boy. And she

6:15

went, so, we're at

6:17

will here. So, Samuel,

6:20

Samuel's my manager. Samuel, how long

6:22

have you been here? 21 years?

6:24

He's there, hands folded on the

6:26

table. Yes. What

6:28

at will means is it could

6:30

be tomorrow. I could say, you

6:33

know, Samuel, it's been a great 21

6:35

years. I really appreciate all the work

6:37

you've done. Today's your last day. Why

6:40

would you say that? And he has to

6:42

sit there and go. Jesus

6:45

Christ. And then she says, of

6:47

course, likewise, tomorrow, Samuel could

6:49

come to me and say, hey, Mary

6:52

Lou, it's been 21

6:54

years. I've enjoyed it.

6:56

I'm quitting. So, you

6:59

know, the sort of sword over

7:01

his neck is being cast

7:03

as somehow equal to him not

7:05

being, like, indentured. Yes!

7:08

What are we doing here? This

7:10

also just, I mean, like, you

7:13

know, on the basic level, yeah,

7:15

it's like, okay, your opponent can...

7:17

I guess they are your opponent.

7:19

Your boss can just instantly fire

7:21

you for any reason whatsoever for

7:23

any amount of time. And then

7:25

also you could quit the job.

7:28

what and then secondarily just like

7:30

as a management tactic like i

7:32

are you like trying to piss

7:34

off your support and it's like

7:36

what what i have never had

7:38

a boss like just do that

7:41

in a hiring meeting what yeah

7:43

i mean have you have you

7:45

worked at like a like a

7:47

like a sort of small like

7:49

mom and pop quote -unquote business before.

7:51

Yeah, I mean, that's probably why,

7:54

because I've usually had, like, larger

7:56

-y... My shitty jobs have either

7:58

been, like, government jobs or, like,

8:00

larger companies, so there was less

8:02

of the, like... I heard a

8:04

line recently that I wish I

8:07

remembered where it was from. It

8:09

might be a line from Star

8:11

Trek. Like, one of the Ferengi

8:13

rules, which is, like, treat your

8:15

employees like family, exploit them ruthlessly,

8:17

which I like. Well, hey, you

8:20

know. That's a traditional line in

8:22

business, especially in small business. It's

8:24

no stranger here. Yeah,

8:26

that question of wanting to

8:29

piss off your subordinates or

8:31

whatever. I

8:33

don't know if pissing

8:35

off is necessarily the concern,

8:37

but ownership here, definitely,

8:39

I've gotten the impression that

8:41

they enjoy showing their

8:43

power. And I've gotten the

8:45

impression that Sort

8:48

of like uncertainty and like

8:50

my mom would call it

8:52

jockeying for position that you

8:54

have to do is a

8:56

dynamic. I can't say

8:59

I really can't say they honestly,

9:01

because the other owner, he hasn't

9:03

been very active in the business

9:05

since since my hiring. But at

9:07

least Mary Lou. Yeah. Tends to

9:09

lean on. That's kind of like

9:11

the the special quality that you

9:14

get with like. a small business

9:16

and organizing in a small workplace

9:18

is that like you know you

9:20

can see sort of in their

9:22

public communications the way that like

9:24

the zucks and the bezoses and

9:26

the rest of them feel about

9:28

their employees and you know you

9:31

can get a sense of perhaps

9:33

how they might act towards their

9:35

employees if they like interacted with

9:37

them on a daily basis but

9:39

in a small business setting you

9:41

really get a a

9:43

keen view into

9:46

how like the

9:48

power of the

9:50

employer mixes very

9:52

readily with, um,

9:54

a person's like

9:56

predilection towards discipline,

9:58

predilection towards like

10:01

personal, what would you

10:03

call it? Personal battling

10:05

almost. Yeah. Well, and that's, and

10:07

it's also like, it's inescapable in a way

10:09

that it isn't with like, You know, if

10:11

you're dealing with people who are, you know, you're

10:13

at a larger company, you're not dealing with

10:15

the person. Like, there's an old Chinese expression

10:17

that's like, heaven is high and the emperor is

10:19

far away. So, you know,

10:21

it's like, you know, like a lot of times

10:23

you're dealing with, okay, yeah, there is like, you

10:25

know, your Zuckerberg is there, but he's like, he

10:27

never interacts with you. But with this, it's like,

10:29

no, the small business tyrant is right there in

10:31

your face all the time. And all of the

10:33

weird petty shit that they want to do and

10:36

all of this sort of like. You know, and

10:38

I would say this isn't just like a unique

10:40

thing of like small business owners, like people in

10:42

all positions, like in all portions

10:44

of like the class society have in them

10:46

kind of like the capacity for cruelty.

10:48

And there's just people like that, but they

10:50

don't normally have the ability to just

10:52

do it to you directly in your face.

10:54

And that's yeah. And that's like, you

10:56

know, this is what you've been talking about

10:58

is like, yeah, you have like these

11:00

small business tyrants, like every suddenly in the

11:02

same way that it's like, I don't

11:04

know, you're dealing with like. like,

11:06

one of the random King Louys,

11:08

and you're, like, in the

11:11

court, and suddenly just, like, the

11:13

fact that this guy doesn't

11:15

like people going to the bathroom

11:17

means that everyone around him

11:19

doesn't get a shit, right? Like,

11:21

it's just, like, yeah, it's

11:23

just this weird deal. Yeah, no,

11:25

exactly. It's, like, it's actually

11:27

an argument that she's deployed in

11:29

her Reddit correspondence, which has

11:31

been seemingly a pretty active part

11:33

of her spare time that

11:35

she's not spending at the bargaining

11:37

table with us. you know,

11:39

made this comparison of like, this

11:42

isn't a question about oligarchs

11:44

or whatever. And it's true. Like

11:46

the small businessman is not

11:48

an oligarch, but the small business

11:50

is a microcosm of like

11:52

the larger capitalist social order. And

11:54

while the small business

11:57

man might not have the

11:59

scope of power of

12:01

the oligarch or like the...

12:04

capital resources of an

12:06

oligarch, the behavior certainly

12:08

rhymes. Yeah. And

12:10

again, it's like, it's a lot of it

12:12

is about, it's just how much power

12:14

you have access to, right? Like lots

12:16

of people can be like this, but

12:18

only the few, the proud, the small business

12:21

get to do it. Yeah,

12:23

totally. And, you know, ultimately the

12:25

employer, wherever they are, they're in

12:27

this privileged position of being able

12:29

to, you know, you spend most

12:31

people more than like a third

12:33

of your life at work. Yeah.

12:35

The employer has this unique power

12:37

to dictate what that third of

12:39

your life looks like. You know?

12:42

Yeah. We talk about, I

12:44

mean, shit, we don't, people

12:46

are not so much talking

12:48

about democracy writ large in

12:50

the U .S. in

12:52

the same way now that they

12:54

used to. But, you know, you

12:56

talk about this idea of like

12:59

living in a democracy, but democracy

13:01

ends at the shop door. Yeah.

13:03

yeah and and like the the

13:05

kind of power that these people

13:07

have is something that like these

13:09

people get to control when you

13:11

can go to the bathroom like

13:13

what clothes you wear like literally

13:15

what you can do what you

13:17

can say at any given time

13:19

if you employed the exact level

13:21

of control that your boss has

13:24

over you on a state it would be

13:26

a totalitarian state and yet everyone seems to

13:28

think that this is sort of like you

13:30

know and this is an argument i've been

13:32

making about like trump is that like yeah

13:34

this is this is this is what sort

13:36

of trump and elon and like that whole

13:38

cadre and and you know and particularly if

13:40

you want to go into the sort of

13:42

ideologues behind it too this is what people

13:44

like peter thiel When they

13:46

say run the government like a

13:48

business, what they mean is

13:50

that they want to import the

13:52

pure tyranny of the workplace

13:55

and expand it into the entire

13:57

political system so that their

13:59

pure totalitarian corporate rule can't be

14:01

challenged. Yeah, I mean, wasn't

14:03

it Mussolini who coined the term

14:05

the corporate state? Probably,

14:08

although it would not surprise me

14:10

if it was some other fascist

14:12

theorist and Mussolini just started saying

14:14

it because... Yeah. But

14:16

yeah, like that's, you know, that's a

14:18

substantive thing here. And what this also

14:20

means is that like, even in ways

14:22

that are sort of hard to see,

14:24

like a fight over democracy in the

14:26

workplace, right, is a part of the

14:28

larger struggle against all the things that's

14:30

happening. Because if, you know, if we're

14:32

going to survive this, and if we're

14:34

going to make sure that we don't

14:36

all live in a world where, like,

14:39

if you say the wrong thing, you

14:41

can be sent to a prison camp.

14:44

democracy, if you want this to survive, is

14:46

going to have to march into the lair

14:48

of the beast. It is going to have

14:50

to go into the source of this tyranny

14:52

itself, which is the workplace, and it's going

14:54

to have to crush it there. Yeah,

14:56

I mean, you said it

14:59

very aptly there, like the

15:01

corporate structure mirrors the totalitarian

15:03

structure. And, you

15:05

know, not only does

15:07

fighting the corporate structure at

15:09

the level of labor

15:12

make sense, And that, right,

15:14

labor is what enables

15:16

the flow of capital that

15:18

sustains the totalitarian state.

15:20

But also, like you said,

15:23

you're addressing the structure

15:25

in its, I don't know,

15:27

I almost think of

15:29

it as like the, you

15:31

know, like Grendel's mother

15:33

in the fen or whatever.

15:36

Like, you know, the... the

15:38

authoritarian thing is like,

15:41

uh, is like Grendel maybe.

15:43

And like Grendel's mother

15:45

is like this capitalist hierarchical

15:47

structure. Yeah. You know,

15:49

you take it on with

15:51

an insistence on workplace

15:53

democracy as kind of Libby

15:55

as that sounds. Okay.

15:59

Speaking, speaking, speaking of capitalist

16:01

totalitarianism, I hear the ads that

16:03

we are required to run

16:05

by our corporate. Let's

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hear him. You

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Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com.

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We have a radio show. We try

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Lord knows, that's hard to find. When

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to us. And

17:45

we are back. So

17:49

let's get back a little bit

17:51

towards... more concrete parts of the

17:53

union, although I do have more

17:55

to say eventually at some point

17:57

about the way that sort of

17:59

labor liberalism co -opted democracy in

18:01

the workplace from like, you know,

18:04

the old sort of like anarchist

18:06

idea of workers control. Right. But

18:08

OK, so one thing I wanted to talk

18:10

about before we sort of get into the more

18:12

formal stuff about about the strike is I

18:14

was I'm really interested. to hear

18:16

you talk about what the process of

18:19

kind of onboarding you to get more

18:21

involved in the union is because this

18:23

is something that like okay every functional

18:25

union wants to do this like if

18:27

your union is not trying to bring

18:29

people like its members like more to

18:31

get more involved in the union and

18:33

become more of the people becoming like

18:35

core organizers and becoming you know like

18:37

the people who are doing your bargaining

18:39

people are doing your thing like your

18:41

union is there's weird shit about it

18:43

and you should probably like be looking

18:45

into that but it's pretty

18:47

hard. So yeah, can you talk a bit

18:49

about the process of like how you were

18:51

brought in and what sort of worked and

18:53

what didn't? Well, I think

18:55

ultimately like the easiest

18:57

thing is a sort of

18:59

ramping up degree of

19:01

like responsibility within the organization,

19:03

right? So like at

19:05

the start, I would come

19:07

to some of the

19:09

meetings. I would miss some

19:11

of them. I would

19:14

be like, oh, I'm fucking

19:16

so busy with. whatever

19:18

is going on in my

19:20

life and you know

19:22

was supportive and sort of

19:24

involved but you know

19:26

i wasn't like i mean

19:28

i certainly wasn't doing

19:30

things like this um and

19:32

uh you know eventually

19:34

one we like kind of

19:36

persisted as a union

19:38

over a longer period of

19:40

time the necessity of

19:42

involvement became more like obvious

19:44

to me right and

19:46

That's a hard ask. You're

19:48

organizing, you want momentum, and

19:50

you want to be able to change your

19:53

conditions for the better as soon as possible.

19:55

And with

19:58

Urbanor, lots of

20:00

workplaces that need unionization have

20:02

high turnover, right? And Urbanor

20:04

is no different. And

20:07

so I saw some of

20:09

the more committed elements

20:11

of the bargaining unit. be

20:13

fired or quit

20:15

or whatever. And,

20:18

you know, they would be replaced with other

20:20

people and you have to begin the work

20:22

of organizing over again. And with some of

20:24

them, you succeed with something you don't, you

20:26

know, you have different dynamics. I

20:28

feel like the hiring procedures may

20:30

have changed a little bit after

20:32

one election, but you know, I

20:34

can't say that for certain. So

20:37

the sort of like necessity of

20:39

like keeping that. like flame going

20:41

especially after we had won the

20:43

election we were in contract bargaining

20:45

for a long period of time

20:47

made me feel like a sort

20:50

of sense of like i need

20:52

to be more active in this

20:54

because like this is an important

20:56

struggle and like yeah i see

20:58

our like main organizers taking on

21:00

like a fuckload of work yep

21:03

and like needing more voices at

21:05

the table needing more more uh

21:07

needing more people to be more

21:09

involved and so like I,

21:12

you know, volunteered

21:14

to run for treasurer.

21:17

I was the only candidate. But

21:19

theoretically, I could have been voted down. I could have been

21:21

like, I don't know about Spencer. And,

21:25

you know, like ended up having like

21:27

a little bit more direct responsibilities. Like

21:29

I was like receiving some of the

21:31

donations to our strike fund. Once we

21:33

started fundraising for the strike, I had

21:35

to keep track of those and, you

21:37

know, put them in my special bank

21:40

account. And then eventually. take that money,

21:42

get it to like the, the IWW

21:44

branch, uh, hand it, hand

21:46

a big check to Dino,

21:48

um, that kind

21:50

of stuff. And just like

21:52

having like little things to

21:54

be doing, like Spurs involvement,

21:56

other people, you know, became

21:59

responsible for like parts of

22:01

social media outreach, graphics, stuff

22:03

like that. And, um, also

22:06

like sort of, I guess.

22:08

giving people the opportunity to leverage

22:11

their individual connections within the workplace

22:13

because every workplace is like clicks

22:15

and groups and subgroups and all

22:17

that to leverage those connections in

22:19

like service of bettering everyone's conditions

22:21

so like to a certain degree

22:23

I've I've been like important as

22:25

like an envoy to my particular

22:27

department because it's our job takes

22:30

us away from the job site

22:32

or like from like the main

22:34

the main work site often and

22:36

stuff like that so There's less

22:38

of a direct avenue for communication

22:40

there. So I can say that's

22:42

my experience. As far

22:44

as organizing goes, I'm

22:46

easy. I was already

22:49

believing in it. And

22:51

there are others that

22:53

it's been harder. I

22:56

will say, though,

22:58

that the strike itself

23:00

is, I mean,

23:02

a strike is a

23:04

conflict. And when

23:06

you're in conflict together,

23:08

it's an extremely cohering

23:10

force. Which isn't to

23:13

say that necessarily you want

23:15

your unionization to come to

23:17

a strike, but perhaps raising

23:19

a sort of consciousness of

23:21

the fact that you are

23:23

ultimately in conflict with the

23:25

boss. The boss doesn't want

23:27

you to unionize. The boss

23:29

doesn't want you to force

23:31

concessions out of them. And

23:33

that as a union, we

23:35

are... taking on this like

23:37

responsibility to look after each

23:39

other's interests yeah and to

23:41

like support each other like

23:43

tangibly in terms like what

23:46

we do and also intangibly

23:48

in terms of like the

23:50

kind of conversations we have

23:52

around like morale planning and

23:54

stuff like that you know

23:56

to succeed together i think

23:58

those are like really potent

24:00

cohering forces and you know

24:02

it helps to have a

24:04

good uh a good opponent

24:06

you know the boss is

24:08

the best organizer and At

24:10

Urbanor, you don't go along

24:12

without coming head to head

24:14

with conflict with ownership or

24:16

with ownership through the mediator

24:18

of management. Although support

24:21

for the union might be

24:23

divided a bit at the

24:25

workplace, one thing that's pretty

24:27

universal is frustration with ownership.

24:29

Yeah. So, okay, speaking of

24:31

a frustration with ownership, it

24:33

is time for us to

24:35

go to ads one last

24:37

time. Oh, beautiful. But then

24:40

after we come back, strike,

24:42

strike, strike, strike. Strike, strike,

24:44

strike. Just after this message.

24:46

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25:58

we are back from a

26:00

bunch of people who almost assuredly

26:02

do not want you to

26:04

go on strike. But yeah, so

26:06

let's get into the process

26:08

of how you actually organize a

26:10

strike. Yeah, let's start from

26:12

just like the very beginning. What

26:14

are the kinds of things

26:16

that were happening that, you know,

26:18

made people think that you

26:20

needed to do this in the

26:22

first place? So the strike

26:24

itself is a result, specifically like

26:26

this is a ULP strike.

26:28

So it's in response to something

26:30

that falls under the category

26:33

of unfair labor practice, according to

26:35

the National Labor Relations Act.

26:37

And it's, you know, backed

26:39

up by charges filed with

26:41

the board, as opposed to

26:43

like what's called an economic

26:45

strike, which is a strike

26:47

that is specifically about, you

26:49

know, economic issues of the

26:51

workplace. So the specific ULP

26:53

that's being cited for our

26:55

strike is bad faith bargaining.

26:57

And for us, what that's

26:59

looked like is two years

27:01

of completely stalled negotiations where

27:04

we are basically being faced

27:06

with a take it or

27:08

leave it offer of the

27:10

status quo in the vast

27:12

majority of our proposals. Yeah.

27:24

offense at us having unionized at

27:26

all, which to my understanding

27:28

is pretty typical of small workplaces.

27:30

The ownership takes it very

27:32

personally. And that personal

27:35

feeling of betrayal or whatever

27:37

becomes like a stumbling block

27:39

in the negotiation process. I

27:41

know that was the case

27:43

with Moe's, another bookshop in

27:45

Berkeley that also unionized with

27:48

the IWW. Hell yeah. You

27:51

know, we've had our whole proposal on

27:53

ownership's table for a year and a half

27:55

now. We had started with

27:57

bargaining proposal by proposal. They

27:59

said, well, how can we possibly

28:01

agree to any of this

28:03

without understanding the full context, especially

28:05

the economic context? And

28:07

so we gave them the full proposal and

28:09

they said, oh my God, how do you

28:12

expect us to read all of this in

28:14

time to bargain? this is way

28:16

too much how we going to

28:18

evaluate this all oh my god we

28:20

gotta do a proposal by proposal

28:22

um so it's been really unclear to

28:24

us if ownership has even actually

28:26

like read the entirety of our collective

28:29

bargaining agreement that we put on

28:31

their desk yeah i know that in

28:33

the past lawyers have the lawyers

28:35

have said things like oh my my

28:37

eyes glazed over when i read

28:39

your email so i missed such and

28:41

such part of it just literally

28:43

your job! You're a

28:45

contract lawyer! You have one job!

28:48

Yeah, you would think a lawyer

28:50

would have a little bit

28:53

more beyond a tweet -sized reading

28:55

capacity. Well, they give anyone

28:57

law degrees. Yeah. Or

28:59

ownership saying, well, I just thought

29:01

it was so ridiculous, I didn't feel

29:03

the need to read all of

29:05

it. Stuff like that. Oh my god.

29:08

These readers' bad faith bargaining.

29:10

Yeah, that's bad by, like,

29:12

the standards of, like, normal,

29:15

it takes two years to do

29:17

a fucking contract because they're just not

29:19

doing shit. Like, good lord. Usually,

29:22

in those long contract negotiations,

29:24

by two years at least

29:26

there's, like, been. Some progress.

29:28

Yeah, they've read the proposals.

29:31

Like, yes, okay, will your boss show up

29:33

to your meeting an hour and a half

29:35

late because they didn't bother to look through

29:37

the proposals until literally right at the time

29:39

the meeting was going to start? Yes, but

29:41

will they have done it? Usually, yes! Mm

29:43

-hmm. Oh, God. In

29:45

fact, in the sort of

29:47

company propaganda where they're claiming

29:49

that this bad faith bargaining

29:51

charge has no grounds, they're

29:54

like, ownership has come to

29:56

like... to 30 bargaining

29:58

sessions. Neglecting to mention there have

30:00

been somewhere in the range of like 50 to 60. And

30:03

of course... Maybe they've

30:05

shown up more than half.

30:07

I don't want to

30:09

be libelous, but... Yeah, but

30:11

still, like... the point at

30:13

which you are failing to show up for

30:15

any bargaining session, I think you can... Look,

30:17

I have always advocated that if management doesn't

30:20

show up to a bargaining session, you should

30:22

just be allowed to take the company because

30:24

clearly they're not serious about it. But...

30:26

Hey, you know, they've been talking

30:28

about a worker co -op for

30:30

20 years. Non -reformist reforms. But

30:35

yeah, so those kind of

30:37

things. And then finally, one of

30:39

the bigger precipitating factors is...

30:41

We've been trying to bargain over

30:43

economics. Ownership has

30:46

implied a lot of times that

30:48

they cannot afford to pay what

30:50

we're asking. They say it'll

30:52

ruin the company. They say the company will go

30:54

bankrupt. They say it's unsustainable. They say this and

30:56

that. And then when they get to the table,

30:58

they say we have never and will never argue

31:01

inability to pay. Because the thing

31:03

is, is that to say inability to pay,

31:05

right? It obligates you

31:07

to furnish information and prove

31:09

that. And they, for whatever reason,

31:12

do not want to

31:14

furnish financial information. So

31:17

these have been some of the

31:19

sticking points, and that's why we've been

31:21

out on the picket line for

31:23

about three weeks now. Still waiting for

31:25

them to come to the table.

31:27

God damn it. So, okay, let's talk

31:29

about the process of how the

31:31

discussions went for doing this. What did

31:33

those sort of look like, and

31:35

how did you plan this thing out?

31:37

Well, I guess the process towards,

31:39

like, deciding that I needed to come

31:41

to a strike was, like, you

31:43

know, that is a sort of thing

31:45

that builds over a long period

31:47

of time. You know, you see ownership

31:49

doing bad faith bargaining, you go,

31:51

what more conciliatory approaches can we take

31:53

first? You know, can we try

31:55

this? Can we try offering this to

31:57

make, you know, can we try

32:00

this display of good faith? Can we

32:02

offer this compromise? One

32:04

of the things that was a big

32:06

part was of a... Some of the

32:08

not exactly contract related discussions, but like

32:10

ownership has been talking for a long

32:13

time about a co -op transition that

32:15

has never happened. It's been 20 years. And,

32:18

you know, now that we've unionized, they're like, our

32:20

people who we were talking to about doing the

32:23

co -op thing, they don't work with unions. And

32:25

so the only way that they

32:27

were going to be a co

32:29

-op is if the union goes

32:31

away. And so in response to

32:33

that, we said, well, we're totally

32:35

open to a transition to a

32:37

co -op that involves the union. And

32:39

here is. such and such organization

32:41

it was our lead negotiator who

32:43

actually provided the information somewhere the

32:46

name of the organization but you

32:48

know here's such and such organization

32:50

that actually specifically deals with union

32:52

co -op workplace transitions was not

32:54

received with interest so it's like

32:56

you master this catalog of bad

32:58

faith bargaining and you end up

33:00

in your strategy discussions with the

33:02

whole unit testing the wires of

33:04

like When is too much? What's

33:06

our red line that we need

33:08

to take more direct action? And

33:11

what that began with

33:13

for us was first, well,

33:15

if we're going to

33:17

have a strike, we need

33:19

funds for it. The

33:21

IWW is an organization that

33:23

affords its unions a

33:25

lot of freedom and a

33:27

lot of mutual support

33:29

and solidarity is not an

33:31

organization with. a huge

33:33

amount of money. And

33:36

so we did start with

33:38

trying to get like a sense

33:40

of like what we could

33:42

get from, you know, the branches

33:44

reserve. And we moved on

33:46

from that to how we were

33:48

going to fundraise and stuff

33:50

like that. So we held informational

33:53

pickets that had donations. We

33:55

sold shirts, posters, stuff like that.

33:57

We held like a big strike

33:59

fundraiser. Hell yeah. I think something

34:01

around like a month in advance

34:04

of our, or it was maybe

34:06

like a month and a half

34:08

in advance of our, of our

34:10

strike. We also gave management like

34:12

a courtesy notice about this. They

34:14

could pass it on to ownership

34:17

saying, Hey, we've started a fundraising

34:19

for a strike in the hopes

34:21

that like being aware that we're

34:23

taking active preparations to go on

34:25

strike would facilitate bargaining. Sometimes it

34:27

works. i've seen i've seen it

34:30

before i've seen it before sometimes

34:32

it works yeah and uh sometimes

34:34

you know sometimes you end up

34:36

on on a podcast talking about

34:38

how it didn't you never know

34:40

until you try yeah you never

34:43

know um but we did yeah

34:45

we did give them that sort

34:47

of uh early warning and our

34:49

readiness to strike kind of like

34:51

depended then on like where we

34:53

were at in the fundraising process

34:56

yeah So we continued soliciting donations,

34:58

reaching out to various organizations in

35:00

the area that are, you know,

35:03

pro -labor. You know, we've

35:05

talked to, like, DSA

35:07

and whatever, because, you know, they have their,

35:09

like, workplace organizing committee.

35:11

Yeah, I think it's EWOC.

35:13

Yeah. And various

35:15

other, you know, yeah, organizations

35:18

that are pro -labor. And once

35:20

we got to a point

35:22

where we felt like we

35:24

were reasonably, like... to

35:26

sustain a open -ended strike because

35:28

that's what we're doing this is

35:30

a strike with no set end

35:32

date then we announced our intention

35:34

to hold a strike vote we

35:36

held our strike vote strike vote

35:38

passes the ownership was made aware

35:40

at the bargaining session before the

35:43

strike vote so it was like

35:45

the monday before the strike vote

35:47

which is on i think i

35:49

guess saturday so in total it

35:51

was like around maybe like two

35:53

weeks and change that they knew

35:55

like definite possibility.

35:58

Pass the strike vote. 12 days later,

36:00

the strike begins with unfortunately no

36:02

bargaining in between. Good Lord. Yeah.

36:04

The whole way you hope that they'll

36:06

come to the table. You hope

36:08

that they will come to their senses.

36:11

Yeah. Take, take the

36:13

risk seriously. Take the

36:15

risk seriously. And unfortunately this is

36:17

not what's happened here. Yeah. And

36:19

I think part of that is

36:22

maybe an age thing here. Ownership

36:24

is. is in their 80s and

36:26

they've pretty consistently held the view

36:28

that like the union is like

36:30

a bunch of young people who

36:33

don't know what the hell they're

36:35

talking about you know even though

36:37

like uh the age range of

36:39

our union spans the age range

36:41

of the workplace we've got people

36:43

in their 50s and 40s and

36:46

30s and 20s you know which

36:48

is which is of course the

36:50

problematic group but yeah the young

36:52

radicals um Yeah,

36:54

so there's there's been this

36:57

sort of patronizing attitude that

36:59

I think has resulted in

37:01

like a real strategic failure

37:03

on their part to seriously

37:05

prepare for the strike or,

37:07

you know, bargain to avoid

37:09

it. Yeah. One more fundraising thing

37:11

that I just I just want to mention

37:13

this for people. If if you're trying to fundraise

37:15

for your own thing, something that's actually we've

37:17

had a lot of success with up in Portland

37:19

is getting bands to do benefit shows. So,

37:21

like, because it's Portland, right? Like, the local hardcore

37:23

scene has a lot of bands that, you

37:26

know, are just supportive of stuff. And we've done

37:28

this for a whole bunch of different causes. And

37:30

this can also be a good way to

37:32

just sort of do fundraising things that are fun

37:35

and also raise morale because, yeah,

37:37

you're doing the show. Yeah, I

37:39

was... I was hoping to have that

37:41

be more of a thing with

37:43

our fundraiser, but... Yeah, it can be

37:45

hard to organize sometimes. Yeah, the

37:47

people I knew didn't get quite the

37:49

response I was hoping from the

37:51

community. If you are a

37:53

hardcore band, if you are a

37:55

band in Berkeley, there's still time.

37:58

I believe in you. That is

38:00

totally a good option. What we

38:02

did, we ended up doing that.

38:04

There was music, but it was

38:06

also like, one of our organizers

38:08

is... really into cooking you like

38:10

did like a barbecue thing yeah

38:13

sold food stuff like that and

38:15

um had a raffle a raffle

38:17

is a great way to fundraise

38:19

for us we like raffled off

38:21

like stuff we have um but

38:23

honestly you can even do like

38:26

a straight monetary raffle is still

38:28

a great fundraising tool you know

38:30

where yeah everyone puts in money

38:32

the winner the top three winners

38:34

or whatever get like a certain

38:36

percentage like the total pool and

38:38

the rest of the pool is

38:41

is to the cause. Really simple.

38:43

Really effective. Yeah. There's

38:45

a reason. It's not good, but there

38:47

is a reason why a whole bunch of

38:49

state education budgets are funded by the

38:51

lottery. It does work. The people

38:53

love to gamble. Much better.

38:55

Yeah. Mia

38:58

says, having turned

39:00

off her lunch, her path of

39:02

exile to lunch break to come

39:05

to this interview. It's

39:07

pretty such cases. Okay,

39:09

so let's, speaking of, I guess this is something

39:11

that's been tied into sort of all of

39:13

what we've been saying here, but yeah, let's talk

39:15

about, know, sort of maintaining the strike when

39:17

it starts and sort of, yeah, what have been

39:19

the processes of like keeping morale up and

39:21

keeping people engaged and yeah. Yeah,

39:23

I mean, definitely when you go

39:26

into a strike, you want to

39:28

go in with a militant core

39:30

group. You want to basically be

39:32

sure that everyone is committed to

39:34

holding the line until a collective

39:36

decision is made otherwise. You

39:39

don't want people like peeling off. That's

39:41

really bad PR for your strike. Yeah.

39:43

Yeah. And like the

39:45

bosses will grab on that. So

39:47

like, for instance, like, you

39:49

know, we have some people who

39:51

are respecting our picket line, but chose

39:53

not to pick it with us,

39:55

which is fine as far as I'm

39:57

concerned. But the issue with that

39:59

PR wise is that now the bosses

40:01

are saying in their like tallying

40:03

up of who's working and who's not

40:05

working. They're counting them as working,

40:08

you know. They're like, oh, there's only

40:10

whatever. They've been saying eight people. I

40:13

think it's more like nine or ten who

40:15

are on the picket line. But the rest

40:17

of the employees are working. They count themselves

40:19

as employees in that count, of course. And

40:23

they count these people who are not

40:26

crossing the picket line but not on it

40:28

also as among that count of the

40:30

rest of the employees that are working. And

40:34

they've had the opportunity to really

40:36

inflate that count because And sort of,

40:38

you know, classic move. Really, all

40:40

the moves are classic. know, you read

40:43

your organizing books and you're like,

40:45

can it happen here? And it does.

40:49

So like, we got a lot of

40:51

new assistant managers after we won

40:53

our election. So right now, like the

40:55

composition of the workplace, right? Got

40:57

34 people, 15 managers. I really

40:59

wonder when we're going to see

41:01

the day where you have companies that

41:03

have six. like, non -managers and 55

41:05

managers. Like, I feel like we're

41:07

not that far out. Well, we're leading

41:09

the charge here. We have a

41:11

department that's two people, a manager and

41:13

assistant manager. Who's the assistant

41:15

manager managing? Oh, God.

41:22

So, yeah, you know, they've

41:24

had these particular angles to,

41:26

you know, sort of do

41:28

their propaganda from, and... I

41:30

mean, honestly, I think a

41:32

big part of, again,

41:34

the boss is the best organizer. And

41:37

like a thing that keeps you committed

41:39

on the line is like reading all this

41:41

bullshit they say about you and knowing

41:43

otherwise and being able to talk to each

41:45

other and be like, have you seen

41:47

this? Isn't this crazy? Like, what the hell?

41:49

Yeah. Also, you

41:51

know, is this is

41:53

where the sort of like

41:55

seeds of organizing. all

41:58

the way that you start all the

42:00

way back at the beginning of your union

42:02

campaign become you know they show themselves

42:04

is like really important again because like the

42:06

start right anyone will tell you is

42:08

just like getting to know people like being

42:10

like you know being on like a

42:12

hey how's it going kind of level you

42:14

know and having like a personal rapport

42:16

with the people you're on the line with

42:18

is vital just in the sense that

42:20

you know obviously like you know each other

42:22

you're sort of friends you're gonna be

42:24

more likely to stick up for each other

42:26

But also like you're out there nine

42:28

hours walking in a circle with these

42:30

people. Yeah. You know, you gotta, you

42:32

gotta have positive, strong relationships with them.

42:34

You want to be able to have

42:36

the kind of rapport where like you

42:38

can talk to people about like what

42:40

they're feeling anxious about, you know, like

42:42

where they're worried in like the strike

42:44

strategy. Like, you know, you need to

42:47

have that like trust between each other

42:49

that you can have like an open

42:51

dialogue about how it feels to be

42:53

on the picket line. Cause. You're

42:55

not going to maintain morale if

42:57

everyone feels like they've got things got

42:59

to hold in about it. There's

43:02

room to be like, shit, are

43:04

they going to close the business? What

43:06

are we going to do? And

43:08

sort of talk through that from a

43:10

place beyond, you know, you're not

43:12

letting it speak into a crowd of

43:14

a million people or whatever. You're

43:16

just like, two people. Yeah, going through

43:18

a stressful experience together. Yeah. Yeah,

43:20

and you have to actually grapple with

43:23

that in a way that's not

43:25

the sort of like weird corporate, like

43:27

we got to improve morale things.

43:29

Like that's not what that means. It

43:31

means like, you know, it means

43:33

actually grappling and engaging with people's feelings

43:35

and how and what they need

43:37

in a moment. And yeah, and their

43:39

fears and their concerns. yeah

43:43

you can't just sort of brush

43:45

them aside you have to actually

43:47

grapple with it because that's that's

43:49

that's what doing this stuff means

43:51

yeah exactly having like these authentic

43:53

conversations with people because like like

43:55

yeah that's like a totally great

43:58

point you bring up there like

44:00

the hr speak that's the boss's

44:02

and it's the boss's tool to

44:04

divide and create distunity so you

44:06

can't lean on that model for

44:08

morale within your union it just

44:10

creates distrust Yeah, and I've seen

44:12

that happen with unions where it's

44:14

like, you guys did not do

44:17

a good job of talking to

44:19

people about this. Yeah,

44:21

and it can be really disruptive to

44:23

attempts to do this. But on the other

44:25

hand, if you do it well, it's

44:27

the most powerful single thing that you can

44:29

possibly do. Forging

44:31

relationships that are based

44:34

on the actual experience

44:36

of having gone. through

44:38

struggle together and having had to

44:40

like literally had to face your

44:42

feels on the picket line yeah

44:44

yeah like ideally you know the

44:46

union is a is a community

44:48

and it's a community of interest

44:50

right it's a community of of

44:52

work interest but it is ideally

44:54

a community it's not a family

44:56

right and it's uh certainly not

44:58

not not a family in the

45:00

way that the bosses will tell

45:02

you the workplaces um but it

45:04

is a community and and it's

45:06

a community in the way that

45:08

that an employer's idea of a

45:10

community is fundamentally, like, incompatible with.

45:12

Yeah. There's this Vicki Osterwald

45:14

line that I think about a lot

45:17

from her book in Defensive Looting, where

45:19

she talks about how, I feel like

45:21

it was Ferguson that this was about,

45:23

where, like, the police chief is talking

45:25

about the damage to the community, and

45:27

they keep saying, our Walmart. It's

45:30

like, going into a Walmart and

45:32

buying something is not a community,

45:34

right? Those

45:36

kind of relations are

45:38

not actual community relations. But

45:41

when the bosses talk about community,

45:43

that's what they mean. They mean

45:45

our collective community Walmart. They

45:47

mean preserving the relation of

45:49

extraction that they have. And

45:52

we are using the same

45:54

word and meaning something literally

45:56

so radically different than that.

45:59

And you have to make sure

46:01

in the way that you're acting

46:03

that... radically different meaning is clear. Yeah.

46:06

And it's funny you bring that up

46:08

because that's just bringing to mind like you

46:10

see the difference in those attitudes like

46:12

when you're out there on the picket line

46:14

like interact because you know our picket

46:17

line a really pivotal part of it because

46:19

there are so many managers in there

46:21

that they're able to maintain this like skeleton

46:23

crew is the community outreach part is

46:25

like talking to every single person who's coming

46:27

up and being like hey how's it

46:29

going? I've been on strike such and

46:31

such long this is what's up. Please don't

46:33

cross our picket line. And

46:36

I've noticed you get this real funny situation

46:38

where there are the people who are like, I've

46:40

shopped here for 20 years. You don't know

46:42

what the hell you're talking about. I don't know

46:44

you. And I have to be like, well,

46:46

I'm normally at the dump getting the merchandise you're

46:48

buying. And

46:50

who attribute everything they

46:52

like about the business to

46:54

the bosses. And then

46:56

there's the other part of

46:58

the community that is

47:00

coming by frequently. and like

47:03

hanging out with us on on on

47:05

the picket line you know i pet

47:07

the dog and we chat about what's

47:09

going on they're like how's the strike

47:11

going they're like yeah you know i

47:13

know it's been rough on you guys

47:15

for such and such and like these

47:17

people are are our shoppers too right

47:20

but they like yeah they it highlights

47:22

that like sort of divide in like

47:24

what you think of as like community

47:26

and your responsibility to your community because

47:28

like these people also love urban or

47:30

come here all the time but they

47:32

recognize that like It's the workers at

47:34

Urbanor that create it every day, you

47:37

know? And it is a company that

47:39

was like founded by an individual. The

47:41

individual still owns it. He did found

47:43

it with his, with his labor and

47:45

all that. He did the labor, you

47:47

know, back when it was, you know,

47:49

only a few people and stuff like

47:51

that. But ultimately a business, like any

47:53

sort of social phenomenon has to be

47:56

constantly recreated in order to exist. Yeah.

47:58

Yeah. And like the people who do

48:00

the work that makes it. more than

48:02

just like a room full of garbage,

48:04

are us. And a lot of the

48:06

regulars recognize that. And a lot of

48:08

them, you know, flip me off as

48:10

they cross the big line, whatever. I

48:16

think this is a good place to sort of

48:18

start coming to a close. This

48:20

is a fundamental question about what

48:22

the nature of our society is

48:24

going to be, right? Like, is

48:26

the fundamental nature of our society That

48:29

a community is a bunch of people who

48:31

buy things and a bunch of people who make

48:33

money from you buying things and who make

48:35

money from the labor that you do, right?

48:38

And then take credit for the labor

48:40

and take credit both financially for the labor

48:42

and in public for the labor, right? Is

48:44

our society going to just be a bunch

48:46

of pure commercial relations where a bunch of

48:48

people get very, very rich off the labor

48:50

of everyone else in the society and

48:52

get to rule them as sort of like

48:55

these petty tyrant kings? Or

48:57

is it going to be a society where

48:59

the people who produce the society control

49:01

it, right? And that society is

49:03

a democratic society, is an egalitarian society,

49:05

is a society where people are free

49:07

to do the things that they need

49:09

to do. And people are free to,

49:11

you know, have a life where they

49:13

can fucking pay for their groceries, right?

49:15

Where they're not forced to go to

49:17

the market for all of the things

49:19

that they need to... to live where

49:21

you can survive in a way that

49:23

doesn't involve like subjecting yourself to just

49:25

a tyrant for like a third of

49:28

your life yeah where where like the

49:30

place that you spend like a third

49:32

yeah a third of your life is

49:34

a place where you actually have like

49:36

dignity yeah dignity and freedom and where

49:38

you know where you don't have to

49:40

go home at the end of a

49:42

day of making your boss money worrying

49:44

about whether you're going to be able

49:46

to eat or not And

49:48

that's also a society that

49:50

does not involve, again, at the

49:53

very highest level, like you

49:55

getting thrown into prison camps because

49:57

your god king hates you. And

49:59

we can do this. We can

50:01

live in that society. Yeah. The

50:03

demands are not that crazy. No.

50:06

And that's like the thing that

50:08

we've encountered over and over

50:10

again is this constant push and

50:12

pull of people saying that

50:14

like the expectation of bettering our

50:17

conditions. Whether it be us

50:19

on the picket line just trying

50:21

to get a stable wage and just

50:23

cause employment and stuff like that.

50:25

Or whether it be those larger societal

50:27

changes that you're talking about. You

50:29

just butt up against these people who

50:31

have such a paucity of imagination

50:33

about what's possible. Yeah. And

50:35

about the legitimacy of

50:38

trying to make something better.

50:40

The legitimacy of saying,

50:42

sure, I can subsist on

50:44

this, but, you know. There's

50:46

so much more that's possible. Yeah.

50:49

So I maintain that there's something more

50:51

that's possible. Yeah, I think it's

50:53

possible too. And that's the thing about this

50:55

world, right? Is that our enemies have

50:57

figured out that it actually can change. That's

51:00

why they have to fight so hard. Yeah, but the thing

51:02

is, the fact that it can change for the worse also

51:04

means that it can change for the better. Oh, beautiful stuff.

51:07

Okay, where can people find your strike fund?

51:09

We'll also put it in the description.

51:11

Oh, yeah, great. So, it's on

51:13

GoFundMe. I'll send you the

51:15

link and it'll be down there.

51:17

But also people can hit

51:19

up our union Instagram. It's

51:21

urbanorworkers with underscores between the words.

51:24

Urban underscore or underscore worker. We've got

51:26

the link to our strike fund.

51:28

And also, hey, if you're in Berkeley,

51:30

you can sign up for a

51:32

picket shift. And you get to enjoy

51:34

listening to me discourse for nine

51:37

hours instead of... One. It's great. It's

51:39

fun. Pickets are cool and good.

51:41

If you haven't been on one, you

51:43

should go on one. They're great.

51:45

They're great. Yeah. It's a

51:47

good time. It

51:51

Could Happen Here is a production

51:53

of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts

51:55

from Cool Zone Media, visit our

51:57

website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on

52:00

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

52:04

now find sources for It Could

52:06

Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions.

52:08

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