0:03

Welcome to It's Not

0:05

About the Money podcast, helping

0:07

one million women to be

0:10

financially resilient by exploring the

0:12

emotions of money. I'm Catherine

0:14

Morgan and I'll be sharing

0:17

how you can drop the

0:19

shame and shudding with money

0:21

to uncover the true meaning of

0:23

wealth. And it's not about the

0:26

money. Hey

0:31

guys and welcome back to the

0:33

It's Not About the Money podcast.

0:36

Super happy to be here with

0:38

you today and drawing upon some

0:40

of the episodes we have been

0:42

sharing the last couple of weeks,

0:45

I really wanted to explore a

0:47

deeper conversation around how to escape

0:49

the owner trap and build more

0:52

happiness into your business and for

0:54

you as the CEO of your

0:56

business. I know that Many of

0:59

you listening to this will be in

1:01

business, whether that's at the earlier

1:03

stages or the later stages, and

1:05

really wanting to think about how

1:07

to grow and scale your business

1:10

so that it's not always reliance

1:12

on you. We had some really

1:14

great conversations about this at Wealthy

1:16

Women Live last month, and we

1:19

spoke about this concept of the

1:21

importance about drawing the circle around

1:23

yourself first. And this was the...

1:25

analogy that Richard Branson shared with me

1:27

a couple of years ago on Necker

1:30

around how many of us are so inspired

1:32

and wanting to help our client

1:34

so we end up building these

1:36

businesses that serve our clients really

1:38

well but then can leave us

1:40

feeling unsatisfied or wondering like

1:42

what next maybe if you're hitting

1:44

some of your financial goals

1:46

and now you're like well what next

1:49

like how can I create more joy

1:51

and happiness in my life and how

1:53

do I consider how to start maybe

1:56

removing myself out of this business

1:58

as we grow in scale. And for

2:00

those of you that are avid

2:02

listeners as well, we'll know that

2:04

I last month also attended an

2:07

incredible trip in Italy called Ski

2:09

Person of Influence that was run

2:11

by Daniel Priestley. And one of

2:13

the guys that I met on

2:15

the Ski Slopes is joining me

2:17

on this episode today, Mike Jones.

2:19

He is the founder of Better

2:21

Happy. Like what a great name,

2:23

right? You just want to know

2:25

more just from the name of

2:27

his business. And Mike actually very

2:29

kindly posted me a copy of

2:31

his book, The Happy Business Revolution,

2:33

as I came back from that

2:35

trip. And as I was reading

2:37

this book and talking to

2:39

Mike about some of his

2:41

experiences through business and through

2:44

life, he's been in the

2:46

military, he's visited and lived

2:48

in monasteries, and I really

2:50

wanted to dive into some

2:52

of Mike's experiences around happiness

2:54

and how we can escape this

2:56

owners. Trapp. So a huge welcome

2:59

to the show today, Mike. Thank

3:01

you so much for joining us.

3:03

My pleasure. Thank you for

3:05

having me on. It's an honor.

3:07

You're very, very welcome. So, Mike,

3:10

I need to ask the question.

3:12

Like, I really would love

3:14

to hear more about your

3:17

personal journey of being in

3:19

the military and living in

3:21

some monasteries and how that

3:24

shaped your idea of happiness.

3:26

Yeah, so my first proper job, if

3:28

you want to put it that way, was

3:30

the military. So I joined the

3:32

military in my 20s, in my

3:34

early 20s, and it wasn't a very

3:37

exciting reason for joining the military.

3:39

It was basically I wanted to

3:41

get out of my hometown. I didn't

3:43

want to go to university. I

3:45

didn't have a lot of confidence.

3:47

So... I didn't want to go through interview processes

3:49

I just thought what's the easiest way for me

3:51

to get out of my hometown and I was

3:54

quite fit and healthy and so I thought perhaps

3:56

the army is an easy option. So that was

3:58

my inspirational story for joining the military. So I

4:00

very quickly realized in the military that

4:02

it wasn't really what I wanted to

4:05

do. I enjoyed it. I had some

4:07

incredible life experiences. I got to work

4:09

with the Special Forces. I did two

4:11

tours of Afghanistan, which is obviously good

4:13

and bad. So about three, four years

4:16

in after my second tour of Afghanistan,

4:18

I was like, this job isn't really

4:20

fulfilling me. You know, I've got money

4:22

in the bank. I've got, you know,

4:25

you're in a good... financial position in

4:27

the military because you don't have many

4:29

outgoings and you get paid half decent,

4:31

I did, I was a corporal so

4:34

it was half decent wage. So it

4:36

was also around 2008 where the economy

4:38

was in a particularly good state when

4:40

I was getting to like this four

4:43

or five year point I was like

4:45

God I'm really unhappy in the military,

4:47

I've just done a second tour of

4:49

Afghanistan so I thought I want to

4:52

leave but confidence was holding me back

4:54

from leaving because you know, the economy

4:56

is not great, what job am I

4:58

going to get, etc. And I got

5:01

to a point where I was like,

5:03

I'm just really unhappy, so I need

5:05

to leave. But what do I do

5:07

to be happy? Like I've had the

5:10

nice car, I've got the money, I've

5:12

had the girlfriends, but none of that,

5:14

like it all contributes, but it doesn't

5:16

make you feel overly happy. So I

5:19

just found out there was something missing,

5:21

and I've done a little bit of

5:23

travelling when I was in the traveling

5:25

when I was in the army. I'd

5:28

seen the monks and the monasteries and

5:30

I was really interested in it. I'd

5:32

never really learned anything about it. I

5:34

didn't really understand it. I always had

5:37

this thought like, if there's no word,

5:39

I could just go and live with

5:41

the monks and learn about my mind.

5:43

And that's kind of what I got

5:46

pulled towards. So I ended up going

5:48

to live with monks in Thailand, live

5:50

with monks on a monastery in Nepal,

5:52

what does it mean to be happy?

5:55

What's the meaning of life? You know,

5:57

seeing it from an eastern perspective after

5:59

living in the West was completely life

6:01

changing for me. And it changed the

6:04

way I thought about happiness. It changed

6:06

the way I thought about it. life,

6:08

it made me realize that, you know,

6:10

I think in the West we're taught

6:13

that happiness is central pleasure and the

6:15

feeling of joy, whereas in the East

6:17

it's, or at least in Eastern philosophy,

6:19

like Buddhism, it's more about this sense

6:22

of fulfillment you get. So it's not

6:24

necessarily feeling like ecstatic or time. And

6:26

it's also not feeling sad, which is

6:28

a really weird concept. It's an underlying

6:31

feeling of fulfillment. So I found that

6:33

really fascinating and that helped me start

6:35

to understand, look at life in a

6:37

different way, but also you learn a

6:40

lot in Buddhism about understanding your own

6:42

mind and the natural challenges of life

6:44

are just normal. I remember learning it

6:46

and thinking, why is this not taught

6:49

in school? Stresses of life, you know,

6:51

if you're angry with somebody, because they've

6:53

done something to upset you. it's only

6:55

you that's suffering not them, you know,

6:58

so basic things like this, you're not,

7:00

wow, so you really get to learn

7:02

to navigate your mind. And that learned

7:04

to, that basically led to me being

7:07

a piece in my own company, which

7:09

is something I'd never had before. And

7:11

I used to make up for that

7:13

by drinking, essentially. So every weekend in

7:16

the military, you get long weekends in

7:18

the military when you're not in Afghanistan,

7:20

or wherever, and every weekend I remember

7:22

finishing it's while I've been in this

7:25

mental rush to get somewhere, And I

7:27

think there's a lot of that in

7:29

the UK. So it helped me overcome

7:31

that, which helped me stop drinking, which

7:34

helped me become a more peaceful individual,

7:36

which then helped me start to overcome

7:38

some of my inner challenges, which we've

7:40

all got, which helped me get more

7:43

confident, which then helped me, will naturally

7:45

lead to me wanting to own a

7:47

business. So I make a difference to

7:49

people. So after that experience, in the

7:52

monasteries, I came back to the UK.

7:54

So that was all. because of this

7:56

experience in the monasteries. Wow like I

7:58

would love to dive a little bit

8:01

deeper into this than Mike so when

8:03

you were in this monastery and you

8:05

were hearing about actually finding peace and

8:07

finding real happiness and you mentioned about

8:10

it not being about necessarily feeling ecstatic

8:12

all the time and being in joy

8:14

all the time, was that more to

8:16

do with like just finding a piece

8:19

where your emotional state is quite neutral

8:21

or like what was that teaching specifically

8:23

around the emotional piece that you learned

8:25

there? Yeah, so I think it can

8:28

get a bad rap, Buddhism, because some

8:30

of it seems very morbid, but when

8:32

you actually really learn it, it's not

8:34

at all. So it's very practical and

8:37

very rational. So one of the things

8:39

is, I'll come back to that, but

8:41

one of the things is, for example,

8:43

you're taught to meditate on dying, which

8:46

to a Westerner, to a younger version,

8:48

I'll be like, I don't even want

8:50

to think about that. Let's behind a

8:52

closed door. And if we deal with

8:55

death in the UK, it. quickly remove

8:57

the body, you know, black suits, everybody

8:59

heads down, you know, it's a very

9:01

sad time of life, which it is,

9:04

but in the eastern culture it's like,

9:06

oh yeah, we'll keep the body in

9:08

the house for a few days, everyone

9:10

could come and see it, you know,

9:13

and then we'll carry the body down

9:15

and we'll burn it in front of

9:17

everybody and we'll celebrate. So we've got

9:19

a very different relationship with death. I

9:21

think we're very much like, that's a

9:24

horrible thing, let's hide away from it.

9:26

They're very much like, it's going to

9:28

happen, and it's a natural part of

9:30

life, and it's obviously they've got spiritual

9:33

aspects as well, where they believe that

9:35

you re-born. So there's that, which people,

9:37

which make people think it's more good.

9:39

But then what that leads to is,

9:42

they teach you to kind of understand

9:44

emotions, but below them, you are an

9:46

authentic. being, I mean it's deep, and

9:48

essentially that when you are just that

9:51

authentic being minus the emotions, you're at

9:53

peace. So what they tried to get

9:55

you to do is to learn to...

9:57

operate yourself from the emotions, which I

10:00

think is really powerful as a business

10:02

owner because being a business owner is

10:04

an emotional roller coaster. And what they

10:06

teach is don't attach to those emotions, just

10:09

experience them and accept them, but it's the

10:11

positive as well as the negative. So it's

10:13

like when you're feeling really happy, great, but

10:15

don't try to cling to that because then you're

10:17

going to feel miserable when it disappears.

10:20

But the same when you feel a negative, it's

10:22

like just... Okay, it's just part of who

10:24

you are, don't try and get rid of it,

10:26

it's just part of an experience. So it's

10:28

all about associating yourself from these emotions and not

10:30

seeing them as good or bad, but just

10:32

experiencing them, but remembering that they're not you. Yeah,

10:34

I love that so much. And actually, I've

10:36

done a lot of Buddhist work and

10:39

even in the piece that we talk

10:41

about on the show around emotions around

10:43

money, you know, it is about being

10:45

aware of the emotions so that you

10:47

can disconnect from them being part of

10:49

your identity because very often with money,

10:52

you know, a lot of shame can

10:54

come up with things that we have

10:56

done with money in the past or

10:58

financial mistakes that we feel like we've

11:00

made. and then shame comes in where

11:03

we attach it then to our sense

11:05

of identity. And so I love the, I

11:07

love the concept of imagining this emotion kind

11:09

of coming in on a cloud and that

11:11

it's not part of who we are, it's

11:14

not part of our essence, it's just part

11:16

of the experience that we are in in

11:18

that moment. And that's what I love as

11:20

well about that work is that you can

11:23

shift how you feel very quickly, whether it's

11:25

a negative emotion or a positive

11:27

emotion and actually... there isn't

11:29

such a thing as a

11:32

positive or a negative emotion,

11:34

right? They're all, it's just

11:36

an emotion, like it's just

11:38

an experience, it's something

11:41

that we are feeling in

11:43

that moment. Yeah. I'm curious

11:45

then, so you were how

11:47

old at this point in

11:49

your 20s? Yeah, so I

11:51

was that experience, so military

11:53

was 20 to 25 to 28.

11:55

And so when you look back

11:57

on that time, and your experience.

11:59

of being in the military, would it

12:01

have been, like how would it have

12:04

affected you had you have known this

12:06

before you had been in the military?

12:08

How do you think that might have

12:10

impacted on your experience there? It's emotional

12:12

intelligence right, a kind of

12:14

spiritual but also practical level.

12:16

That's why I like Buddhism

12:18

because I'm ex-arming, ex-rubby, you know,

12:20

if you just come at me with

12:22

spirituality, I'm going to be a bit

12:24

like, okay, but if you've had some

12:27

rationality to it, you'd like the two

12:29

into twine anyway. we need a lot more of

12:31

that in the military but I also think that

12:33

if you did teach that to a lot of people

12:35

that join the military in a good

12:37

way they probably wouldn't want to join

12:39

the military probably wouldn't want to go

12:41

and do the things you need to

12:43

do in the military so interesting maybe

12:45

there's a reason that that stuff isn't isn't

12:48

taught and is that to do do you

12:50

think with the identity that the military carries

12:52

like it's supposed to be you know these

12:54

tough men who are equipped to deal with

12:56

you know difficult situations and that maybe emotional

12:59

conversations is not part

13:01

of that like what's the narrative

13:03

around that do you think? Yeah

13:05

I think the military's got a system

13:07

that works you know they they it's

13:09

been around for a long time it's

13:11

a big machine it's got you know

13:13

it's far from perfect but you

13:15

know the British military is is

13:18

one of the best known as

13:20

one of the best militaries in

13:22

the world who's very small now so

13:24

you know they they do things like draw

13:26

you on your core values. they do

13:28

do do training on for example if

13:30

you go to Afghanistan there's a chance you

13:33

could be well you wouldn't go anymore but

13:35

obviously when I was in you do and

13:37

there's a chance you're gonna get captured and

13:39

if you get captured by the Taliban they're

13:41

gonna do some really not very nice things

13:43

to you if they don't kill you and

13:46

you get training on that and and how you're

13:48

gonna feel ashamed you do do some of this

13:50

stuff and it's not like it's completely

13:52

ignored but I think that higher level

13:54

the higher level context than to which

13:56

it's taught in Buddhism. I just don't think

13:58

it fits very well. to the UK. It

14:01

doesn't fit very well to a

14:03

capitalist society. And I think a lot

14:05

of people would lose a lot of money

14:07

if we were more spiritual because

14:09

a lot of the reason we spend

14:11

the money that we spend on the

14:14

stuff that we don't need is because

14:16

we're trying to fill a gap. So yeah,

14:18

I think it's not a conspiracy theory.

14:20

I just think. Yeah, it doesn't blend

14:22

with the consumeristic side of society

14:24

for sure. Yeah, I really resonate

14:27

with that a lot. And so

14:29

when you think about that time

14:31

of, you know, really significant time,

14:33

I can really feel that

14:35

for you, Mike, around this

14:38

kind of experience of a

14:40

different way of experiencing happiness

14:42

that perhaps we've been conditioned to

14:44

or grown up with in this

14:46

kind of side of the planet,

14:48

how did that then influence you

14:50

when you then moved towards the

14:53

business side? The simple summary of

14:55

the shift was that before this

14:57

experience I thought that getting things

14:59

were achieving status was going to

15:01

make me happy. Getting the girlfriend,

15:03

getting the perfect partner, getting the

15:06

money, the success, you know, whatever

15:08

it might be. So you constantly

15:10

on this striving for that one

15:12

magic thing that's going to make

15:14

you happy, which doesn't exist. After

15:16

this experience, this big shift happened

15:18

in my mind, paradigm shift was

15:20

that you're going to be happy

15:22

for... being a good person and

15:24

feeling like you're fulfilled in life,

15:26

like feeling like you're making good use of your

15:28

time on this planet. And then to me, like

15:30

the only route for me to do that was

15:33

business, because I don't particularly like being employed,

15:35

I'm creative, I try and I can't sit

15:37

and be quiet, so in a lot of

15:39

businesses I'm just not a good fit, especially

15:41

the military. Now I've got a lot of

15:43

strength, I was quite well regarded in the

15:45

military, but I've also got a lot of...

15:47

things that don't fit well to being employed.

15:49

So I was like, the only way I

15:52

can do this is by owning a business.

15:54

So Buddhism and that spirituality forced me to

15:56

go into business. And the reality is

15:58

that if it hadn't... If I hadn't

16:00

had that experience, I would have never

16:03

had the confidence. I guess I did

16:05

have the confidence, but I would have

16:07

never had the drive to pull me

16:09

through the confidence barriers to

16:11

do it. Because it's more comfortable

16:13

to have a job, right? Yeah. And so how did

16:15

that, how did your business come about

16:17

then? So you're in this. this

16:19

scenario you're realizing that being employed

16:21

isn't going to fit with the

16:23

way that you like to work

16:25

and having very creative. Tell us

16:27

then how did that lead to

16:29

the evolution of better happy?

16:32

Well it screwed me at the start

16:34

for the exact reason that you talked

16:36

about on the intro because I was

16:38

I come back from the the monastery

16:41

to the UK. I'd served in the

16:43

military I'd worked on deep sea fishing

16:45

boats in Australia so I've done like

16:47

I thought I was unbreakable,

16:49

right? So I'm like, I've done some of

16:51

the hardest jobs you can do. I've

16:54

worked in my mind for months

16:56

in monasteries, living one month, like

16:58

owning a business is going to be easy,

17:00

and I was very naive. So, but I

17:02

was also driven by this kind

17:04

of Samaritan, be a good person, and

17:06

you'll be happy philosophy. So I

17:09

went into business thinking, I'm just

17:11

going to be really going to provide

17:13

a good service and really look after

17:15

our clients and the business

17:17

will just be fantastic. I still

17:20

see them today and they still love

17:22

that. And it got me stuck

17:24

in a trap where I built

17:26

a business that was making our

17:28

clients very happy but wasn't making

17:30

enough money, wasn't giving me any

17:32

freedom, so it was hiring me out

17:34

and I just ended up really unhappy

17:37

and I got burnt out and I

17:39

had that business for five years and that's

17:41

covert. I still see them today and

17:43

they still love that. It was a

17:45

gym the first one like a... a

17:47

small group person training him. But I

17:50

just hated it towards him because I

17:52

just had no life. I completely put

17:54

my own life on hold thinking taking

17:56

all of those philosophies to the extreme like

17:58

you know if I just look after everybody

18:00

else, I'm going to be really happy.

18:02

It's not true. You have to be

18:04

sensibly selfish. And that then led to

18:06

me starting Better Happy in 2021, which

18:09

has just gone from strength to strength,

18:11

due to, but it was due to

18:13

that experience. And what did you do

18:15

differently when you set up Better Happy

18:17

that you hadn't have done when you

18:19

had the gym? Thought about me from

18:21

day one. Not just me, so you

18:23

might listen to that and be like,

18:25

oh God, what an idiot, you know,

18:27

like selfish guy, but not just me,

18:29

like I'm obsessed with our clients and

18:31

making sure that they get the results

18:33

that we're promising them and that their

18:35

lives are improving through working with us,

18:37

but I'm also obsessed with me being

18:39

happy and me having the lifestyle that

18:41

I want from this business and taking

18:43

the money that I want from this

18:45

business and thinking about both of those

18:47

things as completely transformed the way I

18:49

experience business business business, and it's made

18:51

me. When you talk about I make

18:53

sure that I'm happy first, how do

18:55

you define? So I think about my

18:57

values, I think about like if we're

18:59

aligned to our values, then we're going

19:01

to feel fulfilled. So I don't feel

19:03

happy every day, like I have days

19:05

where I wake up and I'm just

19:07

like, but the genuine experiences that I'm

19:09

fulfilled and I'm quite happy and I

19:11

know that if I neglect one of

19:13

them for too long. I start to

19:15

feel a bit there. So I've got

19:17

live minimal, so I like to keep

19:19

things simple and I only let them

19:21

get complex when they need to. I've

19:23

got learning grow, so I have to

19:25

feel like I'm learning and growing and

19:27

that's through reading, doing courses, being in

19:29

communities. When I feel like I'm learning,

19:32

I feel really good. I like sharing

19:34

that stuff for people. When I feel

19:36

like I'm being lazy or not learning,

19:38

I get a bit down. and having

19:40

a sense of adventure, so a sense

19:42

of freedom. So like remembering, I think

19:44

it's really... the business owner to tell

19:46

yourself this story that I'll put my

19:48

life on hold for a year and

19:50

really graft at this business because I'm

19:52

going to get so much traction in

19:54

that time I can then go and

19:56

have this great life and I think

19:58

it's a really dangerous track to fall

20:00

into because what happens is you get

20:02

miserable over a year and then you're

20:04

like and then the end of day

20:06

business is a marathon isn't it? It's

20:08

not a sprint. There might be some

20:10

businesses that are like these you know

20:12

right niche right time right product it

20:14

took off but that's like the point

20:16

point point one percent most businesses are

20:18

you can have to graft at this

20:20

thing for years so learn to enjoy

20:22

the journey yeah I love that there's

20:24

definitely a like this myriad of beliefs

20:26

that being in business is easier than

20:28

being employed and you'll have so much

20:30

more freedom and time if you have

20:32

your own business and actually in reality

20:34

it's just not the case right and

20:36

what what other traps do you see

20:38

business owners falling into? So I like

20:40

to talk about the core for which

20:42

the model we put into the book.

20:44

So a business is an ecosystem of

20:46

relationships. Even if you're a one-person business,

20:48

it's still these relationships. It's just you

20:50

in the different sitting in different seats.

20:53

But you've got four groups that need

20:55

to be feeling like they're in a

20:57

win win. And if they're all in

20:59

the win win, the business is going

21:01

to do well. The economy and the

21:03

market providing. One of these is off

21:05

for a sustained period of time, the

21:07

business is going to be how about

21:09

plateau will struggle. So you've got, you've

21:11

got the actual business itself, because that's

21:13

one that's a bit weird, you've got

21:15

the actual business itself, so the, whether

21:17

it's a limited company or whatever, you've

21:19

got a business that gives you the

21:21

structure, the being an official business, right,

21:23

gives you the ability to trade, so

21:25

if you're a limited company, is that,

21:27

if you're a sold trader, it, it,

21:29

it's your bank account, it, it, it,

21:31

it, it's your bank account, it, it,

21:33

it, it's your bank account, it, it,

21:35

it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

21:37

it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

21:39

it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

21:41

it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

21:43

it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

21:45

it, it That does it, it gives

21:47

you structure and ability to trade, it

21:49

gives you legitimacy, and what it expects

21:51

in return is cash flow profitability. At

21:53

the bottom right we've then got our

21:55

customers, right? The customers expect a... a

21:57

positive product or service and in return

21:59

for that they'll put money into the

22:01

business and they'll also if they really

22:03

like it they'll put in referrals so

22:05

they'll bring in more money through new

22:07

people at the bottom left not that

22:09

it matters where they are just thinking

22:11

through it visually you've got your team

22:13

so they will put the service in

22:16

and deliver the service which if you're

22:18

an owner operator then you're the team

22:20

as well so you're putting in the

22:22

ability to deliver the product or service

22:24

and expect to expect a way in

22:26

return you expect to wage. Actually the

22:28

modern day employee expects more than a

22:30

wage, they expect to feel a sense

22:32

of belonging, positive community, friends, the ability

22:34

to grow and learn. And then obviously

22:36

as well, the fourth one, a very

22:38

important one, is the business owner. Right,

22:40

and the business owner, what you expect,

22:42

what you put into your business is

22:44

leadership, growth, often your own finances, and

22:46

what you expect in return changes at

22:48

the different levels of the business. But

22:50

what you'll often see as business owners.

22:53

focusing too much on one or two

22:55

or three of them at the extent

22:57

of another one. So the common one

22:59

is really focus on the customers, forget

23:01

about everybody else. That's a very poor

23:04

strategy. Or focus on the customers and

23:06

the bank, but forget about yourself and

23:08

the team. But the most common one

23:10

is the owners neglecting themselves, I think.

23:12

Why do you think that is? Why

23:15

do owners tend to have this? lean

23:17

into the direction of not looking after

23:19

themselves and their financial needs first. I

23:21

think business is the most extreme form

23:23

of personal development there is in disguise.

23:26

So that's all businesses. It's just extreme

23:28

personal development. And one of the things

23:30

that you're going to have to do

23:32

as a business owner is recognise your

23:34

value and be willing to charge your

23:37

value. And we're not, well number one,

23:39

we're evolutionarily not hardwired to do that.

23:41

We're hardwired to be very modest because

23:43

it helps us fit in with the

23:45

tribe. Whereas as a business, any being

23:48

modest is not going to do you

23:50

any favours, like you've got to be

23:52

really good at getting clear. on your

23:54

value and communicating that value and applying

23:56

financial measures to that value. So you

23:59

have to go through that multiple times

24:01

because obviously at the start of the

24:03

business you've got to sell your products

24:05

and services, but as the business develops

24:07

you've got to see that your value

24:10

is in leadership not in doing, so

24:12

you have to give yourself permission to

24:14

step back and get paid more. So

24:16

I think it goes against our evolutionary

24:18

hard wiring and I think society is

24:21

getting worse at the moment due to

24:23

the kind of divide in politics and

24:25

economies not being great. I think society

24:27

pushes this message that if you're making

24:29

good money, you're a bad person. You're

24:32

only doing that because you're exploiting somebody.

24:34

So we're almost made to feel bad

24:36

about making money. And that's, you've got

24:38

to overcome that as a business owner

24:40

because if you don't, what's the point

24:43

in having a business? This is the

24:45

lesson I learn from business one like,

24:47

if you're not going to make good

24:49

money, have a job. There are some

24:51

cases where that might not be the

24:54

case where... You know, you're not bothered

24:56

about making loads of money. You just

24:58

want the hours that you can create

25:00

for yourself and you're happy to make

25:02

a little bit of money. But even

25:05

then, like having a business creates admin,

25:07

it creates accounts that have to be

25:09

paid for. You know, there's a lot

25:11

of stuff that comes with having a

25:14

business. You've got to make money. And

25:16

really, if you look at the hours

25:18

you put into it and the risk

25:20

that you put into it, if you

25:22

just look at it as an investment,

25:25

you should expect a decent return for

25:27

that. barrier of feeling

25:29

bad about making money and wanting to

25:31

make money and feeling deserving of that

25:33

money. There's no point in having a

25:35

business because you'll end up resenting it

25:37

because you will end up two to

25:40

five years in going I could make

25:42

as much if not more from having

25:44

a job with a fraction of the

25:46

stress. You will end up there, the

25:48

passion alone will not carry you through.

25:50

So I think that's the biggest trap.

25:52

I'm not just saying that because I'm

25:54

on your podcast. I know that's what

25:56

you talk about. I'm saying that because

25:59

that is one of the biggest traps

26:01

that then leads to you. being stuck

26:03

in your business, working too much, not

26:05

scaling or not charging correctly, all of

26:07

it kind of falls downstream from there.

26:09

Yeah, I like really resonate with that.

26:11

I know a lot of our listeners

26:13

well as well, because I think you're

26:15

right, there's so much messaging around, you

26:18

know, if you're wealthy, you're not a

26:20

very nice person or, you know, don't

26:22

charge this much because that's a ridiculous

26:24

price, you know, all those kind of

26:26

messages, and that does definitely infiltrate into

26:28

our belief. say for me to make

26:30

all the money when there's people suffering

26:32

in the world, you know, you just

26:34

turn on the news and you, you

26:37

know, you see what's happening in other

26:39

parts of the world, you know, how

26:41

is it possible for me to have

26:43

all this joy and success and financial

26:45

wealth when there's other people struggling? And

26:47

I know that a lot of women

26:49

really resonate with that, you're worth and

26:51

your pricing. So there's two things that

26:53

have, there's two major streams that have

26:56

helped over commit. One is just time

26:58

and confidence. I think the more you

27:00

stay in the game and the more

27:02

you develop the confidence in your ability

27:04

and the results that you get for

27:06

people, the easier it gets to charge

27:08

properly. That's happening in both my businesses.

27:10

So with the gym, you know, we

27:13

started our pricing methodology for the gym,

27:15

was like, look at what the averages

27:17

and do that. But we were riding

27:19

a much higher level service, so we

27:21

had to charge more. So by the

27:23

time we closed that business, we were

27:25

charging four times what we were when

27:27

we started. And the same for my

27:29

business now. So, but that comes to

27:32

confidence. There's definitely a confidence piece. I

27:34

haven't, building that, building that confidence that

27:36

what you're doing is great and that

27:38

it's changing people's lives. And actually focusing

27:40

on the outcomes, not the work. That's

27:42

a massive thing. Like, if you're a

27:44

business only, you can't. You've got to

27:46

get out of employee mindset and focus

27:48

on selling time. You're selling an outcome

27:51

and the more efficiently you can sell

27:53

that outcome the better service you're doing

27:55

for your client. So that's a big

27:57

thing. And then the second thing is,

27:59

and I don't know if this will

28:01

appeal more to men in general than

28:03

women, but the second thing I would

28:05

say that works really well for me

28:07

is using rationality. So when we do

28:10

workshops now with owners, so we do

28:12

a lot of work of electricians at

28:14

the moment because one of my clients

28:16

is big in the electrical trade and

28:18

I'm doing stuff with him. So we

28:20

ended working with a lot of small

28:22

and medium business owners in the electrical

28:24

trade. And one of the things that

28:27

I do straight away with them is

28:29

I get up a slide and I

28:31

show the average benefits of being an

28:33

employed electrician. Let's say off the top

28:35

of my head is like you earn

28:37

50 grand, you get four weeks holiday,

28:39

you get a company car, you get

28:41

a company car, you get your tolls

28:43

paid, you get a company car, you

28:46

get your tolls paid for, you don't

28:48

have to do any admin, right? What

28:50

does it need to pay you for

28:52

it to be a no-brainer against that?

28:54

And that's how I think it helps

28:56

us get really realistic about our businesses

28:58

and really realistic about what we should

29:00

expect in return because it's a lot

29:02

more hard work and stress than a

29:05

job and you're going to have a

29:07

lot more hard work and stress than

29:09

a job and you're going to have

29:11

a much wider impact on more people.

29:13

So you've got to look at that

29:15

rationally, so I can make enough money

29:17

to cover the bills. and you get

29:19

what you ask for, but you get

29:21

what you ask for don't you and

29:24

I think most of us when we

29:26

go into our first business that is

29:28

our business plan because we're not very

29:30

confident we don't know that we can

29:32

make money we don't feel that we're

29:34

worthy of it so you have this

29:36

business plan of being nice if I

29:38

could pay the bills and what you

29:40

end up with is a business that's

29:43

just paying the bills but then you

29:45

realize that that that in the inner

29:47

business there's hundreds of thousands of pounds

29:49

that you didn't think about that tax

29:51

insurance is with the gym like it

29:53

was a music license it just it

29:55

all comes out of the woodwork yeah

29:57

you quickly realize that Okay, I've got

30:00

to make a lot of money. Of

30:02

course, what's the point in doing this? Yeah,

30:04

I assume. Using rationality. It's

30:06

so true and when you stay in

30:08

that mindset as well of like

30:10

I'm just gonna earn enough to

30:12

pay the bills like even that

30:14

were just it keeps your whole

30:17

energy in like limited or everything's

30:19

limited it's just enough and so

30:21

even then when you do start

30:23

to earn more than just paying

30:25

the bills suddenly it becomes so

30:27

uncomfortable because we've we've had this

30:29

mindset and this you know energetic

30:31

shift of just to cover the

30:33

bills that then you know then

30:35

the credit card blows up the washing machine

30:38

breaks down the car needs replacing and all these

30:40

things happen because it's like oh no no because

30:42

you just wanted enough so that's what you've got

30:44

and so then when you stop to make more

30:47

money it's like you can't have that anymore that

30:49

needs to go somewhere else. I remember we

30:51

we ran a promotion in the gym we worked

30:53

the marketing company and they were really good it

30:55

was a really you know often working marketing company

30:58

is not great but these guys were fantastic and

31:00

we made a lot of money and we ended

31:02

up I think we had some of it,

31:04

like we've done the promotion, it was only

31:06

a month, and we had like this five

31:09

grand of surplus cash. And that,

31:11

I remember feeling guilty about having

31:13

this five grand in order, oh, oh, what

31:15

do I do with that? And I remember

31:17

buying a machine for the gym basic, because

31:19

I thought I don't deserve that. Hmm, you

31:21

know, version of me now, I was like,

31:23

what were you doing, you idiot? But at

31:26

the time, I was like, do I deserve

31:28

this money. than most people, but yeah,

31:30

I just remember feeling, I just

31:32

had so, such a limited knowledge

31:34

of an understanding of business

31:37

and money and the psychology

31:39

that we need to actually

31:41

get the success we deserve

31:43

and enjoy the journey. Yeah, I love

31:45

that. I love that. So what's next

31:47

for you, Mike, in your evolution,

31:50

your journey? I'm going to carry

31:52

on doing what I'm doing because I

31:54

enjoy it. So I'd like to... to

31:56

focus on scaling it and making more

31:58

money. So that's just what we... doing. So

32:00

we do a combination of things. We

32:02

work with small and medium business owners.

32:05

We do some stuff with corporates as

32:07

well. It's, you know, because what we

32:09

do with business owners is very similar

32:11

to what new managers need. It's like,

32:13

okay, you're in a leadership position now.

32:15

Your job's not to do your jobs

32:18

to lead to leverage your team. You

32:20

don't have to work crazy hard to

32:22

be successful actually, and probably slowing down

32:24

and working smart is better. Very similar.

32:26

Yeah, I'd really like to build a

32:29

big community around the better happy mentality

32:31

and make that a movement. So yeah,

32:33

we're just going to keep pushing for

32:35

that. I would like to next year

32:37

work whilst traveling. Nice way to go.

32:40

Well, I think I'll go to the

32:42

Alps for the winter period. We can

32:44

do it. We work with our clients

32:46

digitally. We do have clients that we

32:48

work with in person, but even then

32:50

you can fly back from... France or

32:53

Italy, you know, it was skiing. Definitely.

32:55

So I'm going to go and do

32:57

the winter season. I want to, I

32:59

thought of waking up and just being

33:01

able to jump on the snowboard every

33:04

morning for a couple of hours. It

33:06

fills my heart with joy. So yeah,

33:08

we're going to do that next year

33:10

and I think we're going to have,

33:12

as you and I were talking about

33:15

before we're... on the business that's right,

33:17

it feels good, we make a difference

33:19

to our clients, we make money, I

33:21

enjoy it, our clients enjoy it, so

33:23

just everything kind of feels right now,

33:26

so I'm just going to keep doing

33:28

what we're good at. Yeah, I love

33:30

asking that question of like just to

33:32

hear like what's inspiring people right now

33:34

as we're moving through, you know, quite

33:36

a big change I think as well

33:39

at the moment in the entrepreneurial space,

33:41

especially with all the AI movement coming

33:43

in and you know how that's impacting

33:45

on business growth. I guess the final

33:47

question I was wondering from your perspective

33:50

Mike having worked with a lot of

33:52

entrepreneurs who are in this kind of

33:54

owner's trap really, what's the one thing

33:56

that you haven't shared yet that you

33:58

think would be important for them to

34:01

hear about how to escape the owner's

34:03

trap so that they can live a

34:05

more fulfilled and happier life? Kind of

34:07

repeating what we talked about earlier, but

34:09

you get what you asked for, so

34:11

you've got a shift, if you're feeling

34:14

stuck in your business. I can almost

34:16

guarantee that it's because of what's going

34:18

on in your mind. And what you

34:20

need to do is shift from being

34:22

a reactive business owner where you're letting

34:25

your business owner, where you're letting your

34:27

business happen to you and shift into

34:29

being a proactive business owner where you

34:31

ask for what you want from your

34:33

business and that will start with your

34:36

strategy. So do what I would call

34:38

an aligned strategy. So, say over the

34:40

next one year. three years and five

34:42

years, I would like my business to

34:44

give me this in finance, this in

34:46

fun, this in freedom, and this in

34:49

fulfillment. And do that for one year,

34:51

do that for three years, then do

34:53

that for five to ten years, and

34:55

that will then create the path for

34:57

you to the business plan that you're

35:00

actually motivated by. I think a lot

35:02

of time we'd just say, well, I've

35:04

seen this personally on the internet that's

35:06

got some of the business to me

35:08

and they're making this much a month,

35:11

that's what I want to motivate you.

35:13

you're just doing it as you think

35:15

you need to. Whereas if it's like,

35:17

well, I would like my business to

35:19

do this, because if it does this,

35:22

I can go on holiday for three

35:24

months the year and I don't have

35:26

to do any of the jobs that

35:28

I don't like and we can put

35:30

one of the kids into private school

35:32

and A, B and C. And then

35:35

all of a sudden you're going to,

35:37

I'm really motivated for that. Yeah. And

35:39

it will create the right path for

35:41

you. So it's just being. The quote

35:43

that probably summarizes that the best, I

35:46

think it is Jim Rhone who said

35:48

you can solve all of your problems

35:50

and still not have what you want.

35:52

And that, I'm hearing that and that's

35:54

just never left my head because most

35:57

of the business, I've been stuck in

35:59

that and most of the business owners

36:01

I work with are doing that. They're

36:03

trying to solve problems all the time

36:05

and I'm like, okay, that's great, but

36:07

what do you actually want? And they

36:10

have no clue. Well, that's the issue,

36:12

isn't it? Like the business is like

36:14

life is going to create and everything

36:16

all the time. So. I think that's

36:18

a big shift. I think that's a

36:21

massive shift for us. I really, and

36:23

you know, and it's very much speaks

36:25

to a lot of what we talk

36:27

about on the show around, you know,

36:29

not focusing on the money first, but

36:32

actually focusing on your needs, not just

36:34

financially, but the needs of all areas

36:36

of your life. And it's not selfish,

36:38

you know, it's not selfish to put

36:40

your needs first. You're the business owners,

36:43

your business, you get to choose. It's

36:45

being sent to be selfish, isn't to

36:47

me selfish, isn't it, isn't it, isn't

36:49

it, you know, you know. in fact

36:51

a lot of people in the world

36:53

that aren't lucky enough to be born

36:56

into the countries that we're that we're

36:58

born into and you can tell yourself

37:00

you don't deserve to be successful and

37:02

other people are sad or you can

37:04

live your life well and be the

37:07

best version of yourself so that you

37:09

can have a positive impact on those

37:11

people or the people that you care

37:13

about most but you can only do

37:15

that if you're looking after you. You

37:18

know, it's like your kids, parents are

37:20

the worst, aren't they? Parents and business

37:22

owners are the worst combination because you're

37:24

like, I can't look after me because

37:26

I've got this business to run and

37:28

this team to look after and these

37:31

kids to care for. And you're like,

37:33

but if you're just constantly burning yourself

37:35

out to put those things first, you're

37:37

going to die early, you're not going

37:39

to be happy to be around you,

37:42

you're not going to have clarity of

37:44

those things, you'll look after you more.

37:46

And it's reposition in that thinking. I

37:48

love that so so much. Thank you

37:50

so much Mike for sharing your wisdom.

37:53

I feel like I've just learned so

37:55

much about like your own experiences of

37:57

what wealth and happiness actually really means

37:59

and especially bringing that in. the entrepreneurial

38:01

space and how we can start to

38:04

shift our thinking more towards looking after

38:06

our own needs first rather than everybody

38:08

else's so thank you so so much

38:10

if anyone wants to connect with you

38:12

Mike where would be the best place

38:14

for them to yeah LinkedIn to the

38:17

best although although Mike James is the

38:19

most common name in the world so

38:21

I don't know if you put show

38:23

notes on but we can put a

38:25

link in the show notes. Because you

38:28

type Mike Jones and you're going to

38:30

find a lot of people. Yeah, or

38:32

Google the Happy Business Revolution, Mike Jones,

38:34

you'll find Mike's book here which is

38:36

definitely a recommended reads, but we will

38:39

pop all those links in the notes

38:41

as well. So thank you so much

38:43

Mike. Thanks so much guys for listening

38:45

on the show and we'll see you

38:47

again next Monday. So

38:52

thank you so much for listening

38:54

to the podcast today and if

38:56

you want to discover your unique

38:58

money relationship so that you can

39:00

better understand why you behave the

39:02

way that you do and maybe

39:04

how to best manage your money

39:06

in lying with your natural relationship

39:08

with money. grab a cup of

39:10

complete offer assessment now at Catherine

39:12

Morgan.com/money. That's Catherine Morgan.com/money, maybe complete

39:14

it with a partner, send it

39:16

to a friend, have a bit

39:18

of fun, open up some conversations

39:20

with money and we will see

39:22

you again very very soon.