West Indian fast bowling legend Michael Holding speaks to Peter about how he came to write his most recent book Why We Kneel How We Rise, educating himself on racism, his hopes for change in the future and the most recent racist abuse members of the England team faced after their Euro 2020 final defeat.

If you're enjoying the podcast please do leave a review as it helps others discover it and also subscribe so as not to miss future episodes. Episode 5 of I've Been Thinking with Peter Frankopan will be with Chinese artist and activist Ai Weiwei.

Peter can be found on Twitter, @peterfrankopan, where you can learn more about what he is reading and his own book details.

Produced, edited and mixed by @producerneil