0:09

This is Jack in the Radio.

0:11

I'm Suzy Wiseman. Journalist

0:13

and historian Newmeyer joins us

0:16

from Warsaw. to discuss

0:18

her March 13th piece in the New York

0:20

Review of Books called Russia, Letters

0:23

from the Opposition. Last

0:25

summer, Neumeyer wrote to 14

0:27

of Vladimir Putin's political prisoners,

0:30

dissidents locked away in penal colonies

0:32

for opposing Russia's war on Ukraine.

0:35

While human rights organizations estimate that

0:37

some 20 ,000 anti -war critics

0:39

have been detained, a

0:41

smaller number face trial and

0:44

sentencing, disappearing into Russia's vast

0:46

prison system. was

0:48

struck by the deeply personal,

0:50

often unexpected responses she received,

0:52

offering a rare glimpse into

0:55

the lives, fears, and resilience

0:57

of those behind bars. While

1:00

figures like Boris Kagerlitzky, Russia's

1:02

most well -known left -wing

1:04

critic, have drawn international attention,

1:06

including on this program, many

1:08

political prisoners remain unknown. Their

1:10

suffering largely overlooked both inside

1:13

and outside Russia. In

1:15

this conversation, Numayr shares the

1:17

powerful insights from her correspondence,

1:20

revealing not just the punishments these prisoners

1:23

endure, but also their defiance, hope,

1:25

and unwavering resistance. Today,

1:28

we'll explore Putin's escalating

1:30

repression, the deeply human

1:33

stories of imprisoned dissidents, and the

1:35

culture of war and propaganda that

1:37

fuels the political climate in Russia.

1:40

And we'll ask a critical question. What

1:43

happens to these prisoners if and when

1:45

the war ends? All this

1:47

when our program returns in just a moment. Welcome

2:01

to the program. I'm Susie Wiseman

2:03

and really pleased to have Joy

2:05

Neumeier with us for the very

2:07

first time. She is a journalist

2:10

and historian of Russia and Eastern

2:12

Europe, currently based in Warsaw. She's

2:14

published broadly for the New York

2:16

Times, Washington Post, Nation, The Atlantic,

2:19

New Left Review, Guardian, and probably

2:21

many more. And Joy

2:23

began her career in Moscow 15

2:25

years ago writing for Moscow News,

2:28

the expat or English Daily, not

2:30

Daily Weekly probably, maybe it's even

2:32

monthly now. I don't know, you'll

2:34

tell us. Paper, and she's continued

2:37

to bring incisive reporting from the

2:39

region ever since. Joy's

2:41

recent book, A Survivor's Education,

2:43

Women, Violence, and the Stories

2:45

We Don't Tell, was published

2:47

last year and delves into

2:49

gendered violence and the silences

2:51

around it. But today

2:54

we're going to talk about her

2:56

latest New York Review of Books

2:58

piece. It's called Russia, Letters from

3:00

the Opposition, published in the March

3:02

13th edition of the New York

3:04

Review of Books. And in that,

3:06

Joy brings us rare insights into

3:09

the lives of Russians imprisoned for

3:11

their opposition to Putin's war, rather

3:13

on Ukraine and his rule. And

3:16

these are stories that are

3:18

shared through often deeply personal

3:20

letters that were exchanged between

3:22

Joy Neumeier and political prisoners.

3:25

And while someone like Boris

3:27

Karylitsky, who's perhaps Russia's best

3:29

known left critic with a

3:31

very wide international following, and

3:33

has received a lot of

3:35

international attention, including many times on

3:37

this program, there are

3:40

many political prisoners who remain

3:42

unknown and their suffering largely

3:44

ignored within and outside Russia.

3:47

Joy's correspondence reveals not just

3:49

their punishments, but their resilience,

3:51

their fears, and their defiance.

3:54

We're going to talk more about that,

3:57

including how you might write letters and

3:59

how letters can sometimes be a political

4:01

act of solidarity with those who are

4:03

detained. But Russia's

4:05

crackdown on dissent has been

4:07

sweeping. and has been

4:10

growing ever since the full -scale

4:12

invasion of Ukraine. OVD

4:14

Info, which is one of the best

4:16

sites, also Memorial, reports

4:18

that something like 20 ,000

4:20

people have been detained for

4:22

anti -war stances. That's far

4:24

fewer have actually been convicted

4:26

and sent to penal colonies,

4:28

but the rest themselves signal

4:30

an ever -widening repression. And

4:33

the reasons for imprisonment, as we will go

4:35

into, but I should

4:37

just state, can be absurd.

4:39

trivial or even inadvertent such as

4:42

going out wearing blue jeans with

4:44

a yellow shirt or posting

4:46

a poem or they can be

4:48

much more overt, carrying or

4:50

posting no war signs, laying flowers

4:53

at Navalny's memorial sites, making

4:55

a joke about an explosion on the

4:57

bridge to Crimea and many more as

5:00

we're going to learn from Joy. So

5:02

we're going to be discussing the nature

5:04

of Putin's repression, the personal stories of

5:06

these imprisoned dissidents, and the

5:08

culture of war and propaganda that enables

5:11

this climate of fear. That's an awful

5:13

lot. And I think we'll probably end

5:15

as well with a critical question. What

5:17

happens to these prisoners if and when

5:20

the war ends? So with all of

5:22

that, Joy, thank you for coming to

5:24

the show. Thank you,

5:26

Susie. I'm excited to be here.

5:28

Me too. So why don't we

5:30

start on Putin's repression of critical

5:32

voices and sort of the scope

5:34

and nature of that repression today?

5:37

Well, as people who watch

5:39

Russia closely, like yourself

5:41

know, there had already been

5:44

a crackdown on dissent that had really

5:46

been ramping up already during the COVID

5:48

-19 pandemic. Most

5:50

notably, perhaps Alexei

5:52

Navalny's nationwide organization

5:54

was basically entirely

5:57

destroyed. Of course,

5:59

he was famously imprisoned upon

6:01

his return to Russia. And

6:03

yet... people still continue to

6:05

voice their critical opinions freely

6:08

on social media. There

6:10

were still signs of open

6:13

dissent and activism. After

6:15

the full -scale invasion of

6:18

Ukraine in February 2022, things

6:21

started to change very quickly,

6:23

so quickly that it was almost

6:26

imperceptible to people in Russia who

6:28

would do things one day that

6:30

they might have assumed were

6:32

perfectly legal, only to find

6:34

out a few weeks or months later

6:36

that the FSB was knocking at their

6:39

door and they were being arrested. So

6:42

starting in March, the

6:44

Russian state began adding new

6:46

items to the criminal code,

6:48

which made discrediting or quote

6:51

unquote intentionally spreading false information

6:53

about the Russian armed forces.

6:56

It made all of these things

6:58

a crime, which were punishable perhaps

7:01

very lightly with a small fine,

7:03

for repeated offenses, the

7:05

punishments would be more severe. And

7:08

when these items were first added,

7:11

again, nobody really knew how they would be enforced.

7:14

So people kept on protesting, kept

7:16

on openly criticizing the war. But

7:19

slowly, those who did so began

7:21

to find themselves falling prey to

7:24

these criminal statutes. So people who

7:26

were in prison in Russia today

7:28

for some form of dissent, and

7:31

really those new items in the

7:33

criminal code were used to penalize

7:35

any form of dissent, potentially, or

7:38

criticism of the Russian state and

7:40

its foreign policy. Those

7:42

people are frequently prosecuted

7:45

under those statutes. They're

7:47

also prosecuted under a

7:49

wide array of other

7:51

ones, including rehabilitating Nazism,

7:53

quote unquote. which

7:55

have also used against

7:57

Alexei Navalny incredibly absurdly.

8:00

They're frequently prosecuted under terrorism

8:02

and extremism, and terrorism might

8:05

be something like fantasizing about

8:07

the demise of Vladimir Putin,

8:09

as in the case of

8:11

one person I mentioned in

8:13

the article. It's

8:16

a really wide range of charges

8:18

that can be thrown at these

8:20

people, and the outcomes also range

8:23

pretty widely. Sometimes the

8:25

authorities are willing to accept

8:27

an apology, a promise never

8:29

to do it again. And maybe

8:32

they'll just get a brief period of

8:34

house arrest at home and everything will

8:36

be okay. They can go back to

8:38

their normal lives with the understanding that

8:40

if they speak out again, they will

8:43

potentially get in much greater trouble. Other

8:46

people never get that chance. They

8:48

get 10 plus year prison

8:50

sentences right off the bat.

8:52

and just find themselves reeling

8:55

at this seemingly impenetrable situation

8:57

that they find themselves in

8:59

with really very little publicity

9:01

on their cases or help

9:03

from the legal system. How

9:06

arbitrary are these arrests? Because you've

9:08

mentioned things that are posted. People

9:11

are trying to do something

9:13

more secretly in their posts,

9:16

have VPN lines. I guess

9:18

that's very common or encrypted.

9:21

or they're doing more overt things

9:23

but there's some people who are

9:26

doing almost nothing at all and

9:28

I'm just curious about how arbitrary

9:30

random these arrests are or are

9:33

they really focusing in on people

9:35

who they imagine or have evidence

9:37

that they have you know done

9:39

one of these things and then

9:42

you mentioned how many years they're

9:44

getting is are there uniform sentences

9:46

for various charges or are those

9:49

also pretty random. I

9:51

see a great degree of randomness

9:53

in how these charges are applied

9:55

and how the sentences are doled

9:57

out. When I spoke with Sergei

9:59

DeVitas, who is the head of

10:02

Memorial's prisoner support program, which is

10:04

now based in Lithuania, he

10:06

told me that he sees actually a

10:08

fair amount of consistency in what statutes

10:11

are applied to what actions, but he

10:13

has been looking so intensely at these

10:15

things for so long that I think

10:17

they start to... assume an inner logic

10:20

that are not immediately apparent to the

10:22

outside observer. Of course,

10:24

there are some people, especially

10:26

after the announcement of

10:28

partial mobilization in September

10:30

2022, who committed

10:33

acts that in any country

10:35

would be crimes. And

10:38

of course, they did that to protest

10:40

the war. So they had a political

10:42

purpose in what they were doing. But

10:45

for example, probably several

10:47

hundred people attacked sites associated

10:49

with the military and the

10:51

security services, usually by throwing

10:53

Molotov cocktails. So

10:55

yes, property damage. That's not

10:58

allowed. A person in

11:00

a democracy could be arrested for this.

11:03

However, the severity of the

11:05

sentences that they receive and

11:07

the specific charges that they're

11:09

given clearly show that this

11:11

is a political form of

11:13

prosecution. So for example,

11:15

there's one person I interviewed through

11:17

letters who didn't make it into

11:20

the final piece, who threw a

11:22

Molotov cocktail at a conscription office.

11:25

He got a 10 -year prison sentence, five

11:27

of them in a maximum security

11:29

prison in the middle of Siberia,

11:32

a very notorious one. And

11:34

this was a 23 -year -old

11:36

happy -go -lucky guy who was

11:39

a crane operator on a construction

11:41

site. they take

11:43

some relatively small -scale physical

11:45

act of protest and turn it

11:47

into this kind of mass

11:49

conspiracy against the Russian state. And

11:52

inevitably at people's trials, prosecutors

11:54

will haul out their text

11:57

message histories, their

11:59

online search queries to try

12:01

to paint them in as

12:04

radical a light as possible.

12:07

At that end of this bedroom,

12:09

there are people who truly

12:12

did nothing, apparently wrong.

12:16

And by virtue of

12:18

their identity, are vulnerable.

12:21

And I'm thinking in particular of

12:23

a woman named Nadezhda Boyanova, who

12:25

was a pediatrician in her mid

12:27

sixties in Moscow. And

12:29

she saw a seven year old boy

12:32

with his mother while the boy and

12:34

his mother were in her

12:36

office, the mother mentioned that the boy's

12:38

father had recently died in the special

12:40

military operation, quote unquote, as the Russian

12:42

state causes. That's the only

12:45

thing that the two sides agree on. But

12:47

after the mother of the child left

12:49

the doctor's office, she

12:51

posted a video to social media

12:54

claiming that the doctor was scum

12:56

who was criticizing our boys at

12:58

the front, and someone needs to

13:01

do something to get this bitch.

13:04

out of here and at best locked up.

13:07

So this video, she then

13:09

submits to telegram channels connected

13:11

to the security services, which

13:14

have mass followings and people

13:16

connected to the channels start

13:18

calling for her criminal prosecution.

13:21

So based on a rumor

13:24

that has no documentary evidence,

13:27

this woman is fired from her job,

13:29

arrested, brought in for

13:31

an all night interrogation. and ultimately

13:33

sentenced to five years in prison.

13:37

And really the only reason

13:39

why, I think, is because

13:41

she is originally from Ukraine.

13:44

She was born and raised in Lviv, and

13:46

this was brought up time and time

13:48

again at her trial that she had

13:50

made comments on social media or in

13:52

private messages in Ukrainian. So

13:55

on the basis of something so small,

13:57

someone can be locked away for five

14:00

years. But I would like

14:02

to ask just on that one,

14:04

because I've often been struck as

14:06

a student of Stalin's repression, not

14:09

the similarity of scope, but

14:11

certainly the similarity of absurdity

14:14

and the charges, bizarre charges,

14:17

and also just what was

14:19

behind that, which is trying

14:21

to silence all opposition, whether

14:23

real imagined or potential. And

14:26

it seems like that's what's going on

14:28

here, but there was also this other

14:30

thing that you just brought up in

14:32

this particular case, which is the role

14:34

of denunciation. And

14:36

I'd like to know, do you

14:39

know if that's pretty widespread? We

14:41

know that there's been a tremendous

14:43

propaganda effort starting at preschool, I

14:46

think, in Putin's Russia. I

14:48

have a friend who lives here and

14:50

he's horrified that his daughter, who's with

14:53

the mother in Russia, is

14:55

in transitional kindergarten, I don't know what

14:57

the preschool's called, and being forced to

14:59

wear these uniforms and salute the troops

15:02

and all of that at the age

15:04

of four. Yeah,

15:06

I think numbers are hard to come by.

15:09

There's no doubt that it's common.

15:12

There are documented cases of

15:14

teachers who have been denounced

15:16

by parents, priests

15:19

by parishioners. Sometimes

15:21

people don't know for sure

15:23

that they were denounced, but

15:25

in one case, for example,

15:28

a guy who I corresponded with who

15:30

is in prison for comments he made

15:32

in a telegram chat, he

15:34

doesn't know if someone in the chat

15:37

turned him in or if there was

15:39

a provocateur from the security services in

15:41

the chat who did it. He

15:44

doesn't know. There are

15:46

grotesquely people who have

15:48

kind of become professional

15:50

denouncers. There's a

15:52

guy like this in St. Petersburg, and

15:55

these people just do

15:57

denunciations in mass, you

15:59

know, hundreds. They'll

16:01

do them about media organizations,

16:04

about individuals, and I think

16:06

people going to that far

16:08

of a length are certainly

16:11

in an extreme pathological minority,

16:13

but they're certainly symptomatic of

16:15

a broader phenomenon in which

16:18

some people sense quite

16:20

accurately that they have

16:23

something to gain by

16:25

criticizing wrongdoing, quote

16:27

unquote wrongdoing. You

16:29

know, and that brings up sort of the whole

16:31

question that I was going to ask you after

16:33

how you began this project. But let me just

16:36

ask it anyway. And that

16:38

is sort of how state

16:40

propaganda shapes public apathy,

16:42

which is why apathy, or

16:44

in this case, opportunism. You

16:47

know, in order to get ahead, you denounce. But

16:49

so many, I mean, we've talked about this

16:51

since the beginning of the war, what are

16:54

people's attitudes to the war, and they, you

16:56

know, had all these surveys that showed so

16:58

many people in Russia support the war, which,

17:00

you know, if you look a little deeper,

17:03

is probably not the case. I

17:05

think one of the interviews I

17:07

did with Karolitsky, he said, really,

17:09

it's more like, people prefer not

17:11

to think about the war. They're

17:13

neither foreigner against, but they're decidedly

17:15

trying to avoid thinking politically because

17:17

there's an entire legacy that somehow

17:20

is almost in their genes at

17:22

this point, not really, but it's

17:24

a learned approach to avoid contact

17:26

with the repressive forces as you

17:28

simply just shut away those thoughts.

17:30

And I fear that we may

17:32

be finding some of that here

17:34

in the US to a certain

17:36

extent now. You're studying dissidents and

17:38

what happens to them, but you've

17:40

been in Russia and you've looked

17:42

at that. Do you also see

17:45

this sort of attitude of what

17:47

we would call it, educated apathy?

17:50

Yeah, I do. Absolutely. Certainly

17:53

among people I know who are

17:55

still in Russia and want to

17:57

keep their jobs, want to be

17:59

able take care of their children.

18:02

And I think apathy is

18:04

maybe not necessarily the best

18:06

words. People are also

18:08

very well trained from years

18:11

and generations in using Asapian

18:13

language. Euphemism can

18:15

do a lot in helping people

18:17

convey some kind of disappointment, frustration,

18:20

despair without openly

18:23

making any political

18:25

statements. I fully

18:27

agree with you that if this

18:29

is a behavior that is learned,

18:31

we're learning in the US how

18:33

quickly it can be mastered. you

18:36

know, when ICE detains someone on

18:38

the street, how many people

18:41

around are interviewing to help out,

18:43

you feel powerless. So

18:45

often in these situations, you

18:48

know, people who are employed at Columbia now,

18:50

what kind of learned apathy are

18:53

they willing to deal with to

18:55

hang on to their jobs and

18:57

their health insurance and all of

19:00

that. So I also agree with

19:02

you that the outright support for

19:04

the war is probably not a

19:07

majority of society. I

19:09

found convincing sociological work that finds

19:11

around a third of the population

19:13

to be outright chauvinist supporters of

19:15

the war and the remaining two

19:17

-thirds of the population to have

19:19

much more ambiguous feelings that they

19:22

may not be able to comfortably

19:24

express in a public opinion poll.

19:27

Why do we go from there

19:29

to how you got into this

19:31

project corresponding with prisoners? Because it's

19:33

really, you know, this article in

19:35

the New York Review of Books

19:37

just called Russia Letters from the

19:39

Opposition in the March 13th issue

19:42

of the New York Review of

19:44

Books. Can you tell our listeners

19:46

how you got into this project and what

19:48

you learned and also because we've been talking

19:50

about attitudes, how openly

19:52

people began expressing this and was

19:54

it a shock to you? The

19:57

initial spark that got me interested

19:59

in reaching out to prisoners was

20:01

reading coverage about what's been happening

20:03

in Russia for the past three

20:06

years now, since the full -scale

20:08

invasion began. And so

20:10

many people, including experienced Russia

20:12

and Eastern Europe watchers, were

20:14

so taken aback by this

20:16

invasion that so many of

20:18

us thought would not come

20:20

to pass that there was

20:22

this panicked attempt. to

20:24

diagnose the problem. And

20:27

emotions were riding high in

20:30

the first months and year

20:32

or two after the war.

20:35

The full -scale invasion began. And

20:37

I noticed a tendency

20:40

among some commentators to

20:42

basically blame Russia, to

20:45

demonize ordinary Russians, that

20:47

they hadn't been protesting in the

20:49

street, they hadn't overthrown Putin, and

20:51

they were to blame. for

20:54

enabling this conflict. There

20:57

was also another tendency,

21:00

which was to lionize

21:02

or idealize the handful

21:05

of very brave, noble

21:08

people like Alexei Navalny or

21:10

Ilya Yashin, who had committed

21:13

their lives to political activism

21:15

and had for years been

21:18

openly opposing the policies of

21:20

the Russian state. up to

21:22

and including the full -scale

21:25

invasion. But I

21:28

started to wonder what

21:30

lies in between these

21:32

poles of idealizing and

21:35

pathologizing Russians in the

21:37

wake of this. And

21:40

what I found, first by

21:43

looking into the databases of

21:45

Memorial and OVD Info, was

21:48

that there's such a wide

21:50

range of activity all across

21:53

the country, which as we

21:55

know is huge and extremely

21:58

diverse, that could

22:00

be categorized as some form

22:02

of dissent and has indeed

22:04

been prosecuted as dissent by

22:06

the Russian authorities. That

22:08

just hasn't fully been captured in

22:11

media accounts that we've come to

22:13

know. So I started

22:16

trawling through these databases and just

22:18

picking cases that seemed interesting in

22:20

some way. Some of the people

22:23

I chose sort of at random

22:25

based on my personal interests. For

22:27

example, I'm a historian, so I

22:29

wanted to reach out to a

22:31

guy who was a history teacher

22:33

because I thought he might have

22:36

some interesting thoughts about how what's

22:38

going on now fits into the

22:40

bigger picture of Russian history. But

22:43

also people who were

22:45

doing serious time, but tended

22:47

not to describe themselves as

22:49

dissidents with a capital D.

22:53

Some of them hadn't really been

22:55

involved with or paid much attention

22:57

to politics at all before the

22:59

war began. And this

23:02

was the trigger that awoke

23:04

them to take action. And

23:07

their reward, of course, was,

23:10

in fact, punishment. They are

23:12

often sitting in solitary prison

23:14

cells for a very long

23:17

time. And I just wanted

23:19

to capture more of what they were

23:21

thinking and feeling. People

23:23

who were not career politicians

23:25

or vocal denouncing Z patriots,

23:28

but people who didn't like

23:30

the war wanted to do

23:32

something about it, but were

23:35

living kind of normal lives

23:37

all across Russia's regions. So

23:40

let's go through a couple of them

23:42

that you've found. You mentioned a history

23:45

teacher. You also mentioned in

23:47

your article one of the cases that

23:49

was just heartbreaking. I

23:52

think it's Pavel Kushner, the pianist.

23:54

Tell our listeners what happened to

23:57

him. Yeah, his story is

23:59

one of the most tragic, I think,

24:01

to come out of Russia, the

24:03

history of Russian protest and recent memory,

24:06

in addition to Navalny's. was

24:09

a pianist in the region of

24:11

Birobidzhan on Russia's border with China.

24:15

And he had posted an

24:17

anti -war video on YouTube

24:19

on his personal channel, which

24:22

had, I believe, five subscribers.

24:25

So truly, basically, nobody saw

24:28

this. And he

24:30

was arrested and a waiting trial,

24:32

and he went on a dry

24:34

hunger strike. And he died due

24:36

to the hunger strike. And I

24:38

was struck by how at the

24:41

time of his death, he was

24:43

not on any human rights organizations

24:45

list. He had not been recognized.

24:48

So he died alone. And

24:50

you can't help but wonder how

24:52

many cases are out there like

24:55

that of people who are just

24:57

under the radar, haven't managed to

24:59

get the attention of the groups

25:01

that are still active on the

25:03

ground, and people just don't know

25:05

their stories. Tell

25:07

us a few more stories of the

25:09

people who responded to you. First of

25:12

all, like how many letters did you

25:14

write? How many of them responded? And

25:16

how open were they? And how, you

25:18

know, was it hard to get people

25:21

to like either talk about their arrest

25:23

or express their emotional situation, their contact,

25:25

you know, perhaps with other prisoners or

25:28

with the world? I initially

25:30

chose about 15 people out of

25:32

this. personal database that I had

25:34

compiled of cases that I found

25:36

interesting. And when I started

25:39

writing them letters, I had

25:41

no idea what to say

25:43

or what I could say

25:45

rather. This is certainly

25:48

not a normal circumstance for

25:50

an interview, chiefly because Russian

25:52

prison mail is censored. So

25:54

you can either write a paper letter

25:57

or an online one. And if it's

25:59

online, which is what I ended up

26:01

doing, it's print it out,

26:03

pass to the censor, they

26:05

give it the okay or throw it away. It

26:08

goes to the prisoner. The prisoner hand writes

26:10

a response, goes back to the censor, they

26:12

do with it what they will, and then

26:14

it's scanned and goes back to you. So

26:17

it can be a bit of a

26:20

slow labor -intensive process. And

26:23

in 2023 and 24, I

26:25

had read a lot about

26:27

how prison mail was being

26:29

increasingly censored. A bit earlier

26:31

in the war, there had

26:33

been some prominent inmates who

26:35

were giving interviews from prison

26:37

with various journalists and using

26:39

the prison mail system. There

26:42

was one website. It

26:45

might have been Mediasana. I'm not sure.

26:47

One of the very good Russian independent

26:50

journalism websites. They had even published a

26:52

regular series of letters from prisoners, but

26:54

they had stopped doing that because it

26:56

was too hard to get the letters.

26:59

They were censored. They

27:01

mysteriously disappeared. So

27:03

there was just this void in

27:05

the Russian penal system that was

27:07

starting to appear in media coverage

27:09

to a large extent. So

27:12

I start writing these

27:14

letters and my approach

27:16

was to combine very

27:18

broad questions just about,

27:21

hey, how are you?

27:23

Tell me a little about your background, how

27:26

you feel. to combine those

27:28

broad kinds of questions that would

27:30

give them a lot of latitude

27:32

to say whatever they felt like

27:35

or felt comfortable expressing with more

27:37

specific questions that were tailored to

27:39

their particular cases and situations. Why

27:42

did you decide to do XYZ? How do you

27:44

feel about it now? Do you regret it? And

27:48

of the original people I

27:50

wrote letters to, over two

27:53

-thirds responded to my surprise

27:55

and almost all

27:57

of them from the jump

28:00

were incredibly open, detailed,

28:04

and willing to share a

28:06

lot about their their political

28:08

beliefs, their emotions, their

28:11

fear, their sense of adjustment

28:13

to their situations. And

28:15

I was really moved by a

28:18

lot of them. For example, the

28:20

historian I mentioned earlier, Nikita

28:23

Tushkanov. He's from a village

28:25

in the Komi region in

28:27

northern Russia. He grew

28:29

up in a village speaking only Komi. He

28:32

learned, which is completely different from Russian. He

28:35

went on to go to college and become

28:37

a history teacher. And he

28:40

had already been fired from his

28:42

job for staging a one -man

28:44

protest in honor of Alexei Navalny

28:47

when he returned to Russia and

28:49

was imprisoned. So he

28:51

had already started to be interested in

28:53

political activism and had paid some price

28:56

for it. But then after the full

28:58

-scale invasion, like many other people, he

29:00

was writing critical comments on social media.

29:03

And one day the FSB

29:06

knocked at his door and

29:08

they told him that if

29:10

he apologized, basically he

29:12

would get off scot -free and he

29:15

refused. And for that he

29:17

was given a five or

29:19

six year prison sentence with extremely

29:21

harsh conditions that allow him to

29:23

only have a handful of visits

29:25

per year. He's not allowed to

29:28

have phone calls. He's been

29:30

in a punishment cell many times.

29:33

So his plate is really

29:35

arduous. But he has an

29:38

extraordinary depth of perspective, I

29:40

would say, that puts his

29:43

particular situation within a broader

29:45

history of repression beginning

29:48

with his great -grandfather, who was

29:50

a peasant in what is now

29:52

Ukraine, who was deported to the

29:54

Khomei region for being a quote

29:56

-unquote kulak, a rich peasant.

29:59

And he met Nikita's great

30:01

-grandmother while she was also

30:03

being forced to do labor

30:06

on a timber farm, a

30:08

tree cutting farm. So

30:10

there had been this whole

30:12

history. of people who

30:14

had been prosecuted based on their

30:16

identity beliefs or even for almost

30:19

basically nothing at all within his

30:21

family. But no one

30:23

had talked about it. And his

30:25

grandfather, who helped raise him, still

30:27

kept a Stalin portrait on his

30:29

wall and was ashamed of his

30:31

parents who had been political prisoners

30:33

and had to give him up

30:36

to an orphanage at one point

30:38

because of their persecution. So

30:41

Nikita... was basically determined not

30:43

to be like this. He

30:45

wanted to break this historical

30:48

cycle and the promise that

30:50

he is doing that helps

30:52

sustain him in these incredibly

30:54

difficult conditions. It's

30:56

incredible to hear this story. To

30:59

hear someone who is literally the

31:01

epitome of the legacy of Stalinism,

31:03

in a sense, right? And

31:06

whose parents, or grandparents, that is,

31:08

were products came together because of

31:10

that. And in such a

31:12

place as the Komi Republic, which

31:14

is also where Karylitsky served his

31:16

pre -detention five months in, I

31:18

always pronounce it wrong, Sikbar. But

31:21

he said those conditions were quite good. So I

31:23

was going to ask you, like, Is

31:26

there any rhyme or reason

31:28

that you've been able to

31:30

see in terms of what

31:32

kind of conditions people are

31:34

imprisoned to? Like, you

31:36

know, strict regime, solitary, a

31:39

barrack situation, you mentioned telephone

31:41

calls. How does it work? Do

31:43

you know? There's an incredible

31:45

degree of variety. The

31:47

Russian penal system is

31:49

a rich tapestry ranging

31:51

from pretty open colonies

31:54

to very harsh maximum

31:56

security. And for

31:58

political prisoners, if it

32:00

is a speech -based offense, it

32:03

varies incredibly. So there's

32:05

the person I just described who, he's held

32:07

in a normal prison, Nikita,

32:10

but he's in special conditions of

32:12

confinement, which subject him to much

32:14

different harsher rules. Whereas

32:16

another person named Dimitri Skurihin

32:19

who was a local entrepreneur

32:21

in a village in the

32:23

Leningrad region. He was

32:26

imprisoned for writing anti -war slogans on

32:28

the side of his store that he

32:30

owned in his village. Even

32:32

though he was very committed to this activity,

32:35

not only since the full -scale invasion, but

32:38

for years, since at

32:40

least 2009, I think, he'd been

32:42

restensiling political slogans against Putin on

32:44

his store, he was

32:46

only given a year and a half.

32:49

And he was put in a low

32:51

-security penal colony on the outskirts of

32:53

St. Petersburg, and he was allowed

32:55

to call his wife every day on

32:57

the phone. So his

32:59

conditions were much more reasonable, you

33:02

might say. And he

33:04

also, unlike some other prisoners,

33:07

had a fair amount of freedom in terms of how

33:09

to spend his time. Some prisoners

33:11

are forced to work in factories,

33:14

including some of the ones

33:16

I spoke to. They're actually

33:18

very busy. because they work

33:20

for six days a week

33:22

sewing clothes or dealing with

33:24

metalworking. They do

33:26

all kinds of pretty tiring

33:28

jobs for basically no pay

33:30

in very difficult conditions. But

33:33

Dmitri, this guy from a village in

33:36

the Leningrad region, even though he seemingly

33:38

had a pretty cushy situation, you might

33:40

call it, if you have to be

33:42

a political prisoner. he

33:44

told me that he was at the bottom

33:47

of the prison hierarchy among the other prisoners,

33:49

which meant that he had to do all

33:51

the worst tasks like cleaning the toilets, shoveling

33:54

snow, and he was

33:56

basically constantly harassed. No

33:59

one would eat with him. So

34:02

even if you are given a

34:04

lighter sentence or put in a

34:06

lower regime, lower security

34:08

regime prison, there are all

34:10

sorts of social factors that can

34:12

actually contribute to to you having

34:15

a very difficult time, even if

34:17

your sentence is relatively short. Did

34:19

you also correspond with any

34:22

young people? We see reports

34:24

where 13, 14, 15 year

34:26

olds are put in prison.

34:28

Did you write to anyone

34:30

like that? I

34:32

tried writing to a couple of

34:34

teenagers and I did not get

34:36

letters back from them. I

34:39

imagine that they're pretty afraid. It

34:41

could have been random chance. I think

34:43

the youngest person I

34:45

spoke with was this 23

34:47

year old construction Korean operator

34:49

who threw a Molotov cocktail,

34:52

who I mentioned earlier, but

34:54

the issue of age is

34:56

interesting because actually some of

34:58

the more radical forms of

35:00

direct action that people have

35:02

undertaken, not only attacking military

35:05

conscription offices, but also trying

35:07

to derail trains, for example,

35:09

that supply the Russian military

35:11

or bomb Russian

35:13

supply facilities, those

35:15

are almost entirely committed by

35:17

very young people. I

35:20

think a third of them

35:22

are under the age of

35:24

18, and then another third

35:26

are up to the age

35:28

of 23. So

35:30

in a small proportion of

35:32

the younger population, we hear

35:35

a lot about Gen Z,

35:38

this younger generation who worships

35:40

Putin. But there are representatives

35:42

of this generation who are

35:45

absolutely desperate and are willing

35:47

to be much bolder than

35:50

many of their older compatriots.

35:53

I mean, that's not entirely unexpected. But

35:56

on the other hand, the treatment

35:58

is often unexpected because of their

36:00

age, as you see. And there's

36:02

also, of course, we've seen cases

36:04

where people in their 70s, late

36:06

60s and 70s are also detained.

36:09

I think the only kind of compensation

36:11

they get is that they are not

36:13

forced to work because of their age,

36:15

but it doesn't mean that they aren't

36:17

treated just as badly in other respects.

36:20

Were you corresponding with any of the older

36:22

prisoners? I think

36:24

the oldest person I corresponded with

36:26

was Nadezhda Blyanovna, who was in

36:28

her late 60s. So yes,

36:31

she does not have to work,

36:33

but yeah, she is pension age

36:35

and instead she's sitting in prison.

36:38

We've just passed the third anniversary

36:40

of the full -scale invasion, as

36:42

you call it, or the war,

36:45

and we're now seeing President Trump

36:47

switching sides, essentially, and

36:49

trying to broker a peace on

36:51

Putin's terms, just accepting Putin's demands,

36:54

throwing Ukraine under the bus. And

36:56

it raises the question of what's

36:58

going to happen to these political

37:00

prisoners. Do you know?

37:03

Like, let's say that Trump somehow manages

37:05

to force a ceasefire that, as I

37:07

mentioned, is favorable to Putin. There's

37:10

many people, including, you know, the committee

37:12

that I'm involved with, Fring

37:14

Borskigalitsky, and all political prisoners that

37:16

want to see, you know, a

37:19

demand for the release of political

37:21

prisoners. We'll never get someone like,

37:23

you know, Putin or Trump to

37:25

pay attention to that. But there's

37:27

a lot of people raising that

37:30

issue, including, say, the liberal opposition

37:32

leaders like Karamusa. He's raising the

37:34

demand of linking any ceasefire to

37:36

the release of political prisoners. and

37:39

he's already lobbying for this. He's

37:41

on television, you know, doing so.

37:44

We have, of course, these more

37:46

grassroots -type campaigns that are involved,

37:48

that I'm involved in, for example,

37:50

for Kagerlitzkin. There's a difference between

37:52

this. One problem is that there

37:55

are these more prominent liberal dissidents

37:57

who get a lot of attention.

37:59

And in the case of Yashin

38:01

and Karen Mursom, we're also part

38:04

of a prisoner exchange. Kagorolitsky

38:06

famously says he will not be exchanged,

38:09

that that's an act of tearing itself

38:11

to exchange someone against their will. And

38:14

Yashin said that he was removed forcibly and

38:16

did not want to leave Russia. It's

38:19

another form of punishment in a

38:21

way. But of course, we want

38:23

to see them all released, not

38:25

necessarily into the near abroad or

38:27

abroad, but released. And I'm wondering

38:29

what you think are the chances

38:31

that a ceasefire should it come

38:33

about will help. their cases or

38:35

will they be forced to serve

38:37

out their sentences? I

38:39

think it makes total sense

38:41

that a politician like Vladimir

38:44

Karamurza is advocating for the

38:46

release of prisoners as something

38:48

that would be tired to

38:50

hide to a purported ceasefire

38:52

or peace settlement. I

38:54

think it's extremely unlikely.

38:58

I think that any form

39:00

of pause or cessation to

39:02

the war Putin

39:04

will strain to present as

39:06

a historic victory that they

39:09

managed to extract these concessions

39:11

from the West and from

39:13

Ukraine. And it

39:15

would only further validate

39:17

the prosecution of people

39:20

whom the state have

39:22

deemed traitors, who dared

39:24

not to support this

39:26

world historical conflict which

39:29

has resulted in triumph

39:31

for Russia. So

39:33

I just don't see any

39:35

world in which they would

39:37

be released before the end

39:39

of their sentences. And

39:41

even if some kind of pause

39:43

or settlement to the war were

39:45

to happen, of course

39:48

it doesn't change the fact

39:50

that Russia is an autocracy,

39:52

which now has clamped down

39:55

incredibly hard on speech that

39:57

will not change. And

40:00

part of the reason why the

40:03

majority of the population appears

40:05

to be so acquiescent is

40:07

because they see these examples

40:09

of people who have been

40:12

put in prison for daring

40:14

to say anything. So

40:17

I think that Putin needs

40:19

these people to keep the

40:21

rest of Russia's citizenry in

40:24

line. And I

40:26

can't imagine his administration

40:28

relaxing that stance. If

40:32

this had been, say, middle

40:35

or late 2022 or even

40:37

2023, I had the

40:39

opinion that Putin doesn't survive the end of the

40:41

war, that his regime, you know, that there would

40:43

be no way. Things have changed.

40:45

You know, I said the same thing

40:47

about Netanyahu. You know, that, you know,

40:50

the wars there is on Dettron, it

40:52

keeps them in power, it keeps them

40:54

out of being prosecuted, you know, for

40:56

their many crimes. Putin is

40:58

a case of his own. It's

41:00

corruption that's so incredibly revealed by

41:02

Navalny, as we all know, but

41:04

it doesn't look like now the

41:06

end of the war will mean

41:08

the end of his regime, at

41:10

least not immediately. Do

41:12

you agree with that? And I

41:14

guess the question then becomes this,

41:17

what will opposition look like if

41:19

it isn't tied to war crimes

41:21

or to the incredible grinder that

41:23

you've seen that something like, you

41:26

know, 600 ,000 or more Russians

41:28

have been fed into this war

41:30

machine and have died. At

41:32

some point, those of us who,

41:35

you know, remember the anti -war

41:37

movement or participated in the war

41:39

in Vietnam, there's nothing like the

41:41

death of your loved ones to

41:43

put you into, you know, an

41:45

oppositional. anti -war stance and to

41:48

become active on it. That's been

41:50

made very difficult in Russia. I

41:53

guess I'm asking you a

41:55

sort of question about how

41:57

robust this ecosystem of dissidents

41:59

or opposition could be in

42:02

Russia, let's say after the

42:04

war ends. Difficult

42:07

question. I would

42:09

agree that the end in some form

42:11

of the war does not mean the

42:13

end of Putin's regime. There was a

42:15

lot of wishful thinking to that extent,

42:18

which I shared, but it seems like

42:20

this is the reality we have to

42:22

face. For the future

42:25

of the opposition, basically

42:27

the one thing that everyone can agree on

42:29

is the need to end the war. And

42:32

so of course, in that sense, it's universal good.

42:35

But I think that if

42:37

that were to happen in

42:39

some form, There would

42:41

also be a tremendous leaching of

42:43

energy, because that really is the

42:46

one thing binding people together, especially

42:48

after the death of Alexander Valny

42:51

and the crushing of his organization,

42:53

which was really the strongest form

42:55

of opposition inside Russia. There

42:58

are of course many

43:00

opposition -minded activists and

43:02

intellectuals who are active

43:04

and vocal in the

43:07

diaspora. and doing the

43:09

best they can. A

43:12

couple years ago, I attended

43:14

a conference held in Warsaw

43:16

by Ilya Pankamarov, who is

43:19

viewed by many as a

43:21

clown, but was engaged in

43:23

some sort of effort to

43:25

organize opposition politicians from Russia

43:28

who were living in exile.

43:30

Actually, not all of whom were in exile,

43:33

and at least one of whom was arrested

43:35

and is now in prison for having attended

43:37

that conference. Wow. In Poland. And

43:39

basically the premise of this event, the

43:42

aims were very low. It was first of

43:44

all to draft a new constitution for the

43:46

Russian Federation, which spoiler alert,

43:48

they did not manage to complete

43:51

within the span of three days,

43:53

but more broadly to form some

43:55

kind of unified vision for what

43:57

kind of reforms should be called

43:59

for, what should or

44:02

could a Russia without Putin

44:04

look like? And there

44:06

were a lot of really interesting discussions

44:08

at this event, but there was also

44:11

a lot of contention, even within this

44:13

group of several dozen people. For

44:15

example, when the issue of

44:18

decentralization came up, there have

44:20

been some calls among the

44:22

Russian opposition to basically make

44:24

Russia more of a truly

44:26

federal system and devolve power

44:28

to the regions, which may

44:30

include a renewed right to

44:32

secession. which Boris Yeltsin had

44:34

promised in the 90s and

44:36

some republics tried to take

44:38

advantage of. There

44:41

were extremely fierce

44:43

discussions about this

44:45

issue. Part of

44:48

the reason for which was that a few

44:50

of the politicians at this conference opposed Putin,

44:52

but they were also Russian nationalists. You

44:55

know, there are a lot of conservatives who are also not

44:57

happy with Putin. And so there

44:59

were just these completely disparate visions

45:01

of Russian power. and

45:04

what to prioritize that

45:06

of course are natural

45:09

among any diaspora, you

45:12

know, and any opposition political group

45:14

in exile will have endless fighting

45:16

and endless disagreement on what to

45:19

do when and if they ever

45:21

come to power. But it

45:23

really did bring home to me

45:25

on a micro scale the

45:28

broader lack of unity and

45:30

now after Navalny's death really

45:33

lack of clear leadership among

45:35

people who would hopefully yet

45:37

help provide some guidance in

45:39

the event that there were

45:42

to be a new perestroika

45:44

glassnosed. But that said,

45:46

another thing that became clear to

45:48

me while I was working on

45:50

this article about political prisoners is

45:53

how there are still a lot

45:55

of people in Russia who Of

45:58

course, they're not openly protesting because they don't want

46:00

to go to prison for a long time. But

46:03

they do participate in other

46:05

ways in forms of oppositional

46:07

activity. They might

46:09

subscribe or donate to

46:11

Medusa, the independent news

46:13

site now based in

46:15

Latvia. They might volunteer

46:18

to help prisoners. They

46:20

have access to an incredibly

46:22

wide range of media. and

46:24

even social organizations that post

46:27

about their activities online. And

46:30

so these people are

46:32

still engaged, they're doing

46:34

what they can, and

46:36

even the grassroots organizations

46:39

inside the country have

46:41

to operate very discreetly

46:43

and not directly challenge

46:45

the status quo. They're

46:48

still maintaining active networks of

46:50

people whose views do not

46:52

align with the Kremlin's. So

46:55

On the plus side, I think

46:57

there is a lot of energy

46:59

that could be tapped if people

47:01

are willing not to fall back

47:03

into the status quo ante before

47:06

the full -scale invasion under which

47:08

most people were willing to not

47:10

engage in politics or really take

47:12

an interest so long as the

47:14

Kremlin was able to provide basic

47:17

stability. And of course that's

47:19

probably, you know, the difference because now

47:21

the economy has shown itself to be

47:23

better than people thought it would be

47:26

given all of the sanctions and it's

47:28

not suffering to the extent that one

47:30

would push more people out into the

47:32

streets, let's say, or into some form

47:35

of opposition. But wages have stagnated, living

47:37

standards are, you know, not going up,

47:39

they're going down and there's more discontent.

47:42

It's interesting that you pointed out to the wide

47:44

range of it. That's sort of like what you

47:47

would sort of expect. But then

47:49

there is just, you know, the impact

47:51

of the war on people's lives, especially

47:53

those who have, you know, family of

47:56

young people who, for example, sons, nephews,

47:59

brothers who've left the country in

48:01

order not to be conscripted. So

48:03

that gives them, you know, a

48:05

different perspective. And then there

48:08

are, for those who are more politically

48:10

involved in some way, having the foreign

48:12

agent category slapped on them, which is

48:15

an invitation to leave the country or

48:17

else, has led to

48:19

these networks of people abroad who

48:21

are more active too. And so

48:24

it's sort of like that was

48:26

kind of thinking of the word

48:28

ecosystem of dissent there. I

48:31

wonder if, you know, what you

48:33

could add to the sort of

48:35

strength of these networks and even

48:37

if they have the wars they're

48:40

unifying thread right now and are

48:42

in fact more fragmented there is

48:44

oppositional sentiment let's say even if

48:46

it isn't congealed you know in

48:48

terms of what the program or

48:51

prospects are but how do you

48:53

see that let's say in a

48:55

post -war atmosphere you know do

48:57

you assume that people will go

49:00

back um or will stay abroad

49:02

and I just like to hear

49:04

your thoughts on that sort of

49:06

whole phenomenon. I'm sure

49:09

some will go back. Some

49:12

have already. Some

49:14

Western researchers and journalists are

49:17

already appearing to be excited

49:19

at the prospect of going

49:21

back, which I think is

49:23

a bit premature. But

49:25

you're absolutely right that there

49:27

are a lot of people

49:29

in the diaspora in these

49:31

international networks who are

49:34

active, organizing, and in touch

49:36

with people who are back

49:38

in the country. And

49:41

I would imagine that most of

49:43

them are very aware how vulnerable

49:45

they would be to arrest if

49:47

they were to return to the

49:49

country. So I think

49:51

that most of those people will

49:54

probably still remain abroad and they

49:56

have a role to play because

49:58

they can openly voice the things

50:00

that people in the country can't.

50:02

And there's value in that. There

50:05

is though alarmingly a new danger

50:07

and that is of course the

50:09

Trump administration and the kind of

50:11

authoritarians that are gaining traction. in

50:13

places or not because you live

50:15

in a place right now in

50:17

Poland where it's not the case

50:19

where you know the very authoritarian

50:22

justice and law party has been

50:24

voted out and things are changing.

50:26

But let's go back to what

50:28

it means because there's a broader

50:30

climate of uncertainty for the exiles.

50:33

especially those who don't know where

50:35

they would go if they were

50:37

deported, let's say. We

50:39

saw the Trump administration is

50:42

more and more lawless, ignoring

50:44

restraint and disappearing pro -Palestinian

50:46

foreign student protesters and cracking

50:49

down at the borders. And

50:51

there's a recent case of

50:53

a Russian woman who was

50:55

detained. out of US

50:58

airport and is facing deportation to

51:00

Russia, has not yet been deported.

51:02

But if she were deported and

51:05

others like her, we

51:07

can only, you know, we know what's going

51:09

to happen, right? It would be unlikely that

51:11

they would, you know, just be able to

51:13

go back home and nothing is happening. So

51:15

maybe I'd like to get your thoughts about

51:17

that. And then on the sort of climate

51:19

of uncertainty. It's incredibly uncertain.

51:22

I agree. Certainly no.

51:25

immigrant person on any kind of visa

51:28

in the United States, I think feels

51:30

safe right now. And

51:32

yeah, I mean, Russian who loses

51:34

their right to be there, I

51:37

think could find themselves in a

51:39

great deal of trouble upon their

51:41

return. So it's an extremely worrying

51:43

situation. Yeah, well,

51:45

maybe we should we have we're coming sort

51:47

of to the end of our time. And

51:49

I wondered if we

51:51

would talk just a little bit

51:54

about how important the letter writing

51:56

is and for people who want

51:58

to be, you know, do something

52:00

that this is an active form

52:02

of solidarity or political expression. Do

52:04

you tell our listeners about how they could go

52:06

about it and what they could do if they

52:08

want to? Yes, I would

52:11

say that every prisoner with

52:13

whom I have corresponded has

52:15

expressed how grateful they are

52:17

to receive letters. They

52:19

are classified as criminals

52:22

and then basically forsaken.

52:25

And to know that someone sees

52:28

them and respects what they have

52:30

done means a great deal. There

52:33

are a few different

52:35

organizations that assemble lists

52:37

of prisoners and contact

52:39

information. The main one

52:41

that I would recommend is Memorial. It

52:44

has lists of prisoners in both English

52:46

and Russian. And if you

52:48

click on their profile in the

52:50

database, if they are able

52:53

to receive mail in prison, there will

52:55

be a button that says write a

52:57

letter and it will have contact information.

53:00

Unfortunately, a lot

53:03

of Russian prisons don't accept

53:05

foreign bank cards, even for

53:07

online messages, but some do.

53:10

And the only way to know is by

53:12

perusing. let

53:14

the listeners know that you have to pay a small

53:16

price to write these letters. And to get a return,

53:18

I think it's like about a dollar or so, $1

53:20

.50. Yeah. It's

53:23

like a stamp. More than snail

53:25

mail, but it's a it's a pretty

53:27

low investment, I would say. And

53:29

yeah, absolutely worth it in terms of

53:32

what you can do for someone. One

53:35

other organization I would mention

53:37

is called Solidarity Zone. They

53:40

specialize in helping prisoners

53:42

who have allegedly

53:44

done things that potentially

53:46

disqualify them from Memorial's

53:48

list of political prisoners,

53:51

and that's often forms

53:53

of violence. For

53:56

example, I, thanks to Solidarity Zone,

53:59

was in contact a prisoner named

54:01

Ruslan Sidiki. who derailed

54:03

19 trains that served

54:05

the Russian war effort

54:07

in Ukraine and launched

54:09

drone attacks on a

54:11

Russian military airfield. Quite

54:14

an audacious effort and a rarely

54:16

successful one. And he

54:18

is not currently in the

54:20

database of memorial prisoners because

54:23

his trial is still in

54:25

progress. And while no

54:27

one was hurt in the

54:29

attacks that he launched, it

54:32

may make him ineligible for

54:34

receiving aid or attention from

54:37

groups like Memorial. So

54:39

Solidarity Zone specializes in publicizing the

54:41

cases of these types of prisoners,

54:44

some of whom, as I mentioned earlier, are

54:46

quite young. So they

54:49

have a website and also a

54:51

list of prisoners, and they, of

54:53

course, are also on Telegram. So

54:57

if you feel like downloading

54:59

Telegram, you can also follow

55:01

organizations like that. The

55:03

OpenSpace Collective is another one that

55:06

often posts about political prisoners. So

55:09

Russians are very online. There's a lot

55:12

out there if you start Googling and

55:14

getting on the apps. And

55:16

then just for our listeners as well, say

55:18

you want to write a letter, people don't

55:20

know what to say to someone they don't

55:22

know and they don't know, for example, What

55:25

is allowed to be said? You have any

55:27

advice? In my

55:30

experience, a lot can be

55:32

said. So I would

55:34

say just say what you want and see

55:36

what sticks. You will get

55:38

a notification if it was delivered.

55:41

And you will also get a

55:44

notification if the prisoner wrote a

55:46

response that was then intercepted by

55:48

the sensor. And so

55:50

you can't see what they wrote and

55:53

that's a great advantage of communicating with

55:55

prisoners online because if you send a

55:57

paper letter of course it can just

55:59

be thrown away and there's no track

56:02

record. Yeah I would

56:04

say tell them about yourself.

56:07

I have read that it

56:09

is discouraged to mention politics

56:11

but in my experience I've

56:13

had actually very prolonged political

56:15

discussions with Prussian political prisoners

56:17

not only about Putin's

56:20

regime, but about what's happening in the

56:22

US, which they are very interested in.

56:25

And I have found myself

56:27

in the discomforting position of

56:29

being comforted by people doing

56:32

hard time in Russia over

56:34

what has happened in the

56:36

US and offering reassurance and

56:38

hope that Trump will be

56:40

defeated in the next election

56:43

and that America will not

56:45

go on the Russian path.

56:48

So kind of reverse effect there. Yeah,

56:51

they're cheering you up. Right.

56:54

Yeah, as if I'm the one who needs it.

56:58

Well, I want to thank you so

57:00

much for joining us today. Joy Neumeier

57:02

for your work and encourage the listeners

57:05

to pick up. You can do it

57:07

online, the New York Review of Books.

57:09

It's her latest article on March 13th.

57:11

It's called, Russia, Letters from the Opposition.

57:14

And you can find a lot of

57:16

Joy's other work on her website or

57:18

just googling her. But thank you so

57:20

much for taking the time today and

57:23

for doing this important work. Keep at

57:25

it. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks

57:31

for listening. I'm your host Susie

57:33

Wiseman. This is Jacobin Radio. Thanks

57:35

to producer and director Alan Minsky

57:37

and to Jacobin Radio's Micah Utrecht.

57:39

Bhaskar Sunkara is the founder and

57:41

editor of Jacobin Magazine and special

57:43

thanks to Robert Brenner. And thanks

57:45

to you for listening. I'm Susie

57:47

Wiseman.