0:00

Hey prime members Good

0:06

news, with Amazon Music, you have

0:08

access to the largest catalog of

0:10

ad-free top podcasts included with

0:12

your prime membership. To start

0:14

listening, download the Amazon Music

0:16

app for free. Or go

0:19

to amazon.com/ad-free podcasts. You're

0:21

pretty smart. When

0:24

people talk about you,

0:26

too smart comes up a

0:28

lot. So why are

0:30

you trying to prove

0:32

them wrong? Why aren't

0:34

you pushing? You're pretty smart. When people talk about you, too smart comes up a lot. So why are you trying to prove them

0:37

wrong? Why aren't you pushing the

0:39

limits of science and powering the

0:41

nuclear engines of the world's most

0:43

powerful Navy? If you were born

0:46

for it, isn't it time to

0:48

make a smart choice? You can

0:50

be smart or you can be

0:52

nuke smart. Become a nuclear engineer

0:54

at navy.com/nuke smart. America's Navy. Forged

0:57

by the sea. Walking

1:17

Dead. You're listening to the Joe

1:19

Rogan Experience Review. What a

1:22

bizarre thing we've created. Now

1:24

with your host, Adam Thorne. One

1:26

go enjoy the show Hey guys,

1:28

welcome to another episode of

1:30

the Joe Rogan experience

1:32

review This week. I'm joined

1:35

by Hayden How are you? Thanks

1:37

for having me chess nerd question

1:39

mark love it. I like to

1:42

throw myself in that category

1:44

Except I'm not good enough

1:46

to call myself a chess

1:48

a lot I'm not good enough to

1:50

call myself a chess note. I

1:52

just like chess a lot. I'm

1:54

not Good enough at it though.

1:56

Yeah, I would agree. It's too

1:59

difficult, dude. Oh, no, there's so

2:01

many different variables. that you can

2:03

have to take into account and

2:05

it gets way too complex. But

2:07

it's so fun to watch. And

2:09

just like fantasize that you could

2:11

be that good. Yeah. It's like

2:13

how do their brains work? I

2:15

couldn't tell you. It gets the

2:17

highest levels of it is just

2:19

incomprehensible sometimes. Yeah. And Magnus Carlson

2:22

who Rogan talked to recently is

2:24

the highest level of it. I

2:26

mean, yeah, greatest chess player of

2:28

all time, right. What is his

2:30

score? 28? 2800, yeah. Bananas. Yeah.

2:32

I don't even know how you

2:34

get to that level. It's basically

2:36

a computer. Yeah, basically. A human

2:38

computer. He's the only one who

2:40

has a chance at some of

2:43

these AI systems that they're creating

2:45

for chess. Yeah. Yeah, but still

2:47

no chance. Yeah, no chance. Still

2:49

no chance. Interesting that Tony Hinchcliff

2:51

was on the pod. I mean,

2:53

I know he likes to come

2:55

in when there's W-W-E wrestlers. He's

2:57

a big fan of that. He

2:59

pops in every now and again,

3:01

you know, when he wants the

3:03

fanboy out, but I would have

3:06

never guessed that he would come

3:08

in for Magnus. And he was

3:10

really like in all. Like you

3:12

could tell he was a big

3:14

fan of. Oh, yeah, he was

3:16

just quiet and just... truly listening

3:18

to everything he said. All right.

3:20

I felt like Magnus was he

3:22

he's pretty humble in a lot

3:24

of like he he's in front

3:26

of Rogan which is like a

3:29

big show you know I guess

3:31

that could be seen as a

3:33

lot of pressure and maybe it

3:35

is for a lot of people

3:37

he seemed very chill though very

3:39

relaxed very much how I've always

3:41

seen him present himself. I wonder

3:43

if that's part of his skills

3:45

is super power to playing chess

3:47

well, just staying level. Oh, you

3:50

have to be at the pressure

3:52

that you face on the world

3:54

stage like that. You have to

3:56

remain calm, especially with a game

3:58

that's so focused on analytics strategy

4:00

and all of that. Yeah. God

4:02

imagine that stress don't they I

4:04

think I heard this once you

4:06

like burn those guys burn like

4:08

10,000 calories or like something and

4:10

I'm like well from what just

4:13

thinking just the brain power either

4:15

that all they're so tense that

4:17

it's just like these just contraction

4:19

Exercises they're doing the whole time,

4:21

but they can sit there and

4:23

play a game for like eight

4:25

hours, right? It's got a ticket

4:27

hole in your brain after a

4:29

while Good

21:03

news, with Amazon Music, you have

21:05

access to the largest catalog of

21:07

ad-free top podcasts included with

21:09

your prime membership. To start

21:12

listening, download the Amazon Music

21:14

app for free. Or go

21:16

to amazon.com/ad-free podcasts. amazon.com/ad-free

21:18

podcast to catch

21:21

up on the

21:23

latest episodes without the

21:25

ads. Like rarely understood

21:28

you know organ. And

21:30

even though we can't

21:32

think our

22:11

own game and kind of pick up

22:14

the computer aspects too. Well, you

22:16

know, what's interesting about that is I

22:18

think we've got like the Tesla,

22:20

what is it called the Optimus

22:22

robot that they want to release.

22:24

We got a bunch of these

22:27

robots. that are gonna start showing

22:29

up places, right? It may not

22:31

be in households right away, but

22:33

someone's gonna buy those things as

22:35

soon as they're released, and

22:37

they're gonna be popping up all

22:39

over the place. You assume that

22:42

they're gonna know chess, because they

22:44

probably have chat GPT brains. And to

22:46

be at a, I think, sit down

22:48

with like a humanoid thing, and

22:50

of all the things to play, it feels

22:53

like chess would be the most natural.

22:55

Yeah, it'd be kind of weird to

22:57

play monopoly with a, oh yeah, you

22:59

know, your house robot. But like to

23:01

sit there and play chess and have

23:03

it teach you within it can play

23:06

in any style, you could literally say to

23:08

it like be 5% better than me. Yeah.

23:10

So that you don't feel like an asshole,

23:12

like you feel like you had a chance.

23:15

Yeah. But you get a little

23:17

better every time and then it

23:19

gives you some coaching afterwards. That'd

23:21

be incredible. Like the main thing

23:23

I've been thinking about why I

23:25

want to get one of those

23:27

robots and they could do loads

23:29

of stuff like your laundry or

23:31

whatever I don't care forget my laundry

23:33

I'd like to sit down and be

23:35

like can you tell me while I'm

23:37

why I'm still shit at chess I

23:39

need to get better at this game

23:41

it could figure it out. Oh yeah

23:43

I believe it. Yeah. can go through

23:45

I mean you you can do it

23:48

probably now with chat gPT but it's

23:50

it's too boring I'm not moving the

23:52

other side and then reading yeah exactly

23:54

with our robot you could actually just

23:56

have them talk to you in person

23:58

feels like actual coach or something I

24:00

never would have thought about it

24:02

like that. That's a I would

24:04

be happy if the robots were

24:06

used like that. The don't pump

24:08

for it. Yeah. Yeah. They're probably

24:10

just going to be used to

24:12

kill us. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

24:14

Sadly, we don't get to enjoy

24:16

those type of things. We use

24:18

surprise to hear and, you know,

24:20

Rogan is always banging on about

24:22

neutropics. He loves kind of surprised

24:25

to hear that... Magnus doesn't really

24:27

have a regimen for that. Yeah, me too.

24:29

I mean like Rogan was saying like why

24:31

not try to take these supplements that could

24:33

just elevate your game just ever so slightly

24:36

if you truly want to be the best

24:38

of the best of your field. But I

24:40

also kind of feel like Rogan was

24:42

kind of pushing to promote his

24:44

own little brand. Oh he was

24:46

a but yeah, I was surprised

24:48

he didn't bring it up. Honestly.

24:51

I think that he's that into

24:53

it and he probably had to

24:55

stop himself because he knows how

24:57

shitty that would sound. Yeah. And

24:59

he was probably like, fuck, I

25:01

did it again. But at the same

25:03

time, it's like, you know, you're

25:05

the like, it's hard to deny

25:07

that Magnus is not a genius.

25:09

Right. Like for all the ways

25:11

that we throw that word around,

25:14

it's like we give it this.

25:16

I don't know, Stephen Hawkins,

25:18

right? That's reasonable. I

25:20

don't know who else gets to

25:23

be called geniuses, but like

25:25

people that really stand out

25:27

like that. He has to be

25:29

that. Yeah. Because this isn't exactly

25:31

a physical sport. This

25:33

is all coming from the brain.

25:36

He's that good. And then you

25:38

would think, well, you know, if you're

25:40

Christiana Rinaldo, you're

25:43

taking all the supplements,

25:45

right. You're on it all

25:47

and you're running all day, you're

25:49

peaking. So what is he doing?

25:51

He's just like, oh, I just

25:54

try to sleep good. Yeah. It's

25:56

like dude. I don't, that, no.

25:58

It's not enough. No. like he

26:00

could be doing so much, but I do

26:02

find it kind of fascinating that he just

26:04

kind of goes about his intuition about what's

26:07

best for him. Like how he said

26:09

that there was the one game that

26:11

he showed up late just wearing sweatpants

26:13

where in the morning he just felt

26:15

like he needed to go outside and

26:17

he just went to go ski and

26:19

I honestly really admire that. I

26:21

mean sure like you could be

26:24

elevating yourself with all these different

26:26

supplements and training regimes, but. that

26:28

he just trusts himself in his

26:30

brain to know like what's best

26:32

for him in that moment. Yeah, I

26:34

think that's fascinating. Because, yeah, you're

26:37

right, because it takes away some

26:39

of the beauty of his experience

26:42

and his experience is he's

26:44

not here just for our

26:46

entertainment, right? Right. I'm sure a lot

26:48

of people at the top of their

26:50

game feel that they are. Yeah. And

26:52

they have to perform, you know, like

26:54

LeBron James. It's like, I'm here for

26:56

the... for the fans or for the you

26:59

know the winning and he wants

27:01

to win of course he wants

27:03

that but he also wants it

27:05

to be this fun hobby yeah

27:07

and probably why he's taking a

27:10

step back now not just that

27:12

he's done it all and he's

27:14

getting a bit older but maybe

27:17

he doesn't find his fun anymore

27:19

yeah I admire that I mean I think

27:21

that's still why he is able to perform

27:23

at the top of his game. Like even

27:26

just when it comes to learning, like when

27:28

the new AI models came out, he was

27:30

able to get excited about that. And it

27:32

wasn't the same game that he knew anymore.

27:34

And I think that does a lot for

27:37

intrinsic motivation. And I'm happy

27:39

that he actually pursues that and stays

27:41

true to it. Yeah, he was saying

27:43

that they obviously played different. What was

27:46

that one engine that he said isn't

27:48

even that good? But they still keep

27:50

it around because it does some weird

27:52

shit. I think it's Layla. Okay, like

27:55

it'll make some like fundamental blunders or

27:57

some very elementary blunders to begin but

27:59

then later games it could just

28:01

make a move that's just like, it

28:04

doesn't make sense to any

28:06

humans, but then it completely

28:08

settles the game. Now, did they

28:10

explain how that works? Like why

28:13

it does that? I don't think

28:15

so. Because I never heard this

28:17

before, but it's kind of interesting.

28:20

What I was thinking when I heard

28:22

that is like, okay, so could you

28:24

take this program, it has

28:26

to be a program, right? And then

28:28

pump. plug it into some sort of AI

28:30

and be like all right do this but

28:33

now have all the power that it doesn't

28:35

have because he was saying it's not a

28:37

very powerful engine yeah or something yeah so

28:39

there's like the distinction between like the deep

28:41

neural networks and the actual like super computers

28:43

that like I forget what the model was

28:45

that he brought up that was like the

28:47

size of a you know it was a

28:49

side of a computer the size of a

28:52

building and now we're working with deep neural

28:54

networks that are just like on a little

28:56

hard drive So if you combine those two

28:58

powers, maybe it can do more of

29:00

those complex calculations. But another point

29:02

to that of why it makes

29:04

those elementary errors is maybe it's

29:07

sort of like this paralysis by

29:09

analysis what he also brought up

29:11

that it's thinking far to ahead

29:13

and it doesn't realize the simpler

29:16

moves. Right. But I also don't

29:18

understand these AI systems well enough

29:20

to truly understand how they.

29:22

But it's nice to just take a guess.

29:24

Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. I mean I

29:26

guess that's kind of in the same

29:29

line as when he said that he

29:31

was playing, was it in New York? Like

29:33

those chess guys in the park? Yeah.

29:35

I think it was there that he

29:37

said, so this older guy obviously

29:39

been playing in the park forever

29:41

and he plays so many

29:43

games, maybe he didn't get

29:45

the backstory, reasonable. But

29:48

he said he had a really strange

29:50

opening that it just... It

29:52

doesn't make any sense to him and

29:54

he thought he'd seen it all. And

29:56

it kind of led him into like

29:59

a nasty trap. and this person

30:01

just developed it himself. And

30:03

what I liked about that is

30:05

not to take anything away from

30:08

this individual, but he's obviously not

30:10

a grandmaster or someone that's ranked,

30:12

you know, globally. However, he's still

30:15

very good at chess and he's

30:17

come up with this like bizarre,

30:19

unusual trap. Probably works very well

30:21

for him. And you start thinking

30:24

about that in terms of these

30:26

strange programs. you know, and these

30:28

AI neuro networks that can just

30:30

kind of weave this game in

30:33

a new way, I wonder how

30:35

far this can evolve. Is it

30:37

just one of those games where

30:39

it's like, it's been around

30:41

forever, hear all the openings,

30:44

hear all the closings, don't

30:46

fuck anything up, and then

30:48

you'll be world champion because

30:51

that's how the computers work,

30:53

or is there like this whole

31:24

You are no dummy, but you're kind

31:26

of acting like one. You used to

31:28

crush it in school, outsmarting opponents

31:30

on the field, and now, well,

31:33

you're still smart, but not exactly

31:35

challenging yourself. You could be advancing

31:37

nuclear engineering in the world's most

31:39

powerful Navy. You were born for

31:41

it. So make the smart choice.

31:43

You can be smart, or you

31:45

could be nuke smart. Become a

31:48

nuclear engineer at navy.com/nuke

31:50

smart. America's Navy. Forged

31:52

by the sea. the

32:00

game and it'll always end in

32:02

a draw. But I would be

32:04

curious to see how these computers,

32:06

these AI models could completely change

32:08

the game and how we think

32:11

of it, or if it truly

32:13

is just something that's so

32:15

statistically sound that we always

32:17

have to play the best moves.

32:19

I think that's the problem with

32:22

those AI models is that they're

32:24

always making the... the best decisions possible.

32:26

I think that the errors that humans

32:29

make is what keeps the game fun.

32:31

Doing the moves that are not always

32:33

the best introduces different lines and

32:35

different opportunities for people to be

32:38

creative and capitalize on it versus

32:40

always thinking hundreds of moves ahead

32:42

and always making the best possible

32:44

move. It would be interesting, like

32:46

obviously you're calculating the best move

32:49

because it's the best move in

32:51

a series of moves that thinks

32:53

so many moves ahead. Also, it's

32:55

kind of interesting to think,

32:57

oh, not a blunder, but

32:59

like a weird move. Just

33:01

kind of sets this chain

33:03

reaction in place that ultimately

33:05

becomes a strength. It's like

33:07

that kind of variation. I don't

33:10

know if that's real. And why

33:12

say that is because I don't

33:14

know how they calculate the best

33:16

move. Maybe it's the best move,

33:19

best move, and the smartest computer

33:21

gets there. I heard for a

33:23

while that... They were putting in

33:26

the engines against each other and

33:28

everything was just becoming drawles Yeah,

33:31

because they could anticipate which to

33:33

me at that time kind of

33:35

suggested that all they'd both solve

33:38

chess Because if you just play

33:40

your best game Against the

33:42

best thing it makes sense that

33:44

no one wins right everything's a

33:46

draw. It's kind of like the

33:48

game's done. We need a more

33:51

complicated game but who knows but who

33:53

knows? Yeah, who knows maybe maybe

33:55

there's just a new, you

33:57

know, let's get quantum computers

34:00

in here. Like that's like

34:02

next level. We need some

34:04

like 4D chess for that. We

34:06

need to invent a new, a

34:09

new one that worked this way

34:11

up. Look, I really enjoyed this

34:13

episode. I thought Magnus, you know,

34:15

he's very similar to how he

34:18

is in in any time you

34:20

hear him talk and I really

34:22

found that kind of refreshing

34:25

and also I think Joe

34:27

and Tony kind of Fan

34:29

boyed out a little bit.

34:32

There's there's something just magnificent

34:35

about somebody that's really

34:37

even if you don't

34:39

Appreciate chess. You everyone knows

34:41

how fucking hard that is right

34:43

and when you hear that this

34:45

person is just the best. It's

34:48

like that must be special. Yeah

34:50

Very very cool very cool. I

34:52

hope he comes on again I

34:54

really want to see the Netflix

34:57

documentary coming out Yeah, it's going

34:59

to be a bit click bait,

35:01

I think, but it's going to

35:03

be exciting. And I'd be interested,

35:05

what was the other guy's name?

35:07

The piano beads? Yeah, I'd be

35:09

interested for him to come on.

35:12

I'm kind of hoping Rogan does.

35:14

If he does, he needs to get

35:16

it on pretty soon. Yeah, because, you

35:18

know, it's got to make sense for

35:20

the time. But yeah, I'd like to

35:22

hear his case and I don't know.

35:24

I feel like if he's a cheater,

35:27

Rogan, Rogan, Rogan. I would hope so

35:29

at least. And you know it's also

35:31

good publicity for the game of chess

35:33

too. I mean it was in the

35:35

past and you know with Rogan's audience

35:37

I hope it just gets more people

35:40

to enjoying and loving the game. Oh

35:42

100% I mean to be fair yeah

35:44

that anal beads story really picked

35:46

up chess. There was no one that

35:48

didn't know about that. And no one

35:50

even knows who wins the the world

35:53

for or even gives a shit. Like

35:55

maybe they've heard of Magnus right he's

35:57

that big. Yeah, but I can't tell

35:59

you five top chess players. I should, I

36:01

players if I can't do it, it's embarrassing. I

36:03

wonder if could. The content I can't

36:05

do but yeah, it's a like the

36:07

content that shock yeah that really stands out.

36:09

that really stands out Hagan, and

36:11

thank you Hagan and thank

36:13

you everyone for listening we

36:15

appreciate you guys and gals

36:17

and we will talk to

36:19

you next next week.