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the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What

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a bizarre thing we've created. Now

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with your host, Adam Flynn.

0:30

Did you have a preconceived

0:32

notion of telepathy or

0:34

spiritual gifts or anything before

0:37

this? No, I mean, I

0:39

think like a lot of

0:41

people, like the idea of

0:43

mediums and psychics, it felt

0:45

like people that are often

0:47

trying to just make money

0:49

off of people in really

0:52

vulnerable situations. And I've always

0:54

believed certainly there's got to

0:56

be people who have certain

0:58

gifts like that, you know,

1:00

but that the vast majority

1:02

couldn't be trusted or, you

1:04

know, I didn't think telepathy

1:06

could be real. That seems

1:08

impossible. It just seems impossible.

1:10

Even things like plant communication

1:12

felt impossible. Or, I mean, I

1:14

mean, none of that was something

1:17

that was, uh, was like my

1:19

worldview. You know, I was working

1:21

on, you know, solving problems around

1:23

paid family medical leave and making

1:25

health insurance more affordable and accessible.

1:27

Like it was not my cup

1:29

of tea. There we go. That's

1:31

Rogan talking to Kai Dickinson about

1:34

telepathy and get into it. Today's

1:36

guest with me is Ian. Ian

1:38

is a therapist, actually. And, um,

1:41

I haven't talked to you about

1:43

your experience working with. autistic

1:45

people, but I felt like

1:47

this was a good show

1:50

to have kind of, you know,

1:52

psychologists, the therapist, something

1:55

like that on just to

1:57

kind of chat through this.

1:59

Yeah, well, I mean, it's

2:01

definitely in pretty interesting conversation.

2:03

I think the first thing

2:05

that sort of goes without

2:07

saying it's like, with this

2:09

episode, we're doing a review

2:11

of what for a Joe

2:14

Rogan episode felt like a

2:16

review of another podcast, because

2:18

that's really what it was.

2:20

They're saying they're talking about

2:22

the telepathy tapes, which is

2:24

Kai's podcast. So we're kind

2:26

of already two steps removed.

2:28

You know plenty of interesting stuff

2:30

even on on the wings of

2:33

that. Yeah, and in just hearing

2:35

it's it's one of those things

2:37

where it's like well I can't

2:39

do this research So I can't

2:41

verify any of it, but it

2:43

just seems like Let's say it's

2:45

not happening and these these people

2:47

don't have any telepathy at all.

2:49

It's impossible What a wild kind

2:51

of continued lie, it would need

2:53

to be for all these people

2:55

to be involved in teachers reporting

2:57

on it. And I mean, you

3:00

could look online, you can Google

3:02

it. And it's like parents say

3:04

this. Like there's lots of stories.

3:06

And that's what she brings up.

3:08

She's like, how would a bunch

3:10

of nonverbal autistic people be conspiring

3:12

to do this to begin with?

3:14

Like what would that even mean?

3:16

Right. you know, it's sort of

3:18

like the biggest problem with conspiracy

3:20

theories is how hard it is

3:22

for people to actually keep a

3:24

secret and plan something well, how

3:27

much harder when you can't talk,

3:29

right? Yeah. But yeah, very interesting.

3:31

I think, I don't know about

3:33

you. One of the things I

3:35

noticed the most is how much

3:37

I've been wired to be a

3:39

skeptic. Oh, yeah. As soon as

3:41

I heard... that like read the

3:43

bio before I even looked at

3:45

it and I know nothing about

3:47

any of these topics I was

3:49

like all right bullshit yeah telepathy

3:51

okay this will be interesting can't

3:54

wait to hear how nuts this

3:56

lady sounds. And by the end

3:58

of it, I'm like, I think

4:00

I believe in telepathy. Right. Yeah.

4:02

That was convincing enough. Yeah. And

4:04

again, we didn't even hear the

4:06

content, really. I mean, by the

4:08

end, you know, they gave a

4:10

couple examples. I listened to the

4:12

first, just the first episode of

4:14

hers, just because I kind of

4:16

had to see what was going

4:18

on. Of the telepathy tapes. Yeah.

4:21

And, you know, she mentions that.

4:23

It's like, it's an example. It's

4:25

actually Hispanic family, so they had

4:27

like a translator for a lot

4:29

of it, which was kind of

4:31

interesting. But, you know, they just

4:33

did everything they possibly could to

4:35

prove it right or wrong. And

4:37

I think that's what a big,

4:39

you know, I mean, that's kind

4:41

of what you have to do

4:43

with all this. Yeah, like you

4:45

have to, you have to want

4:48

to know if it's real. And

4:50

I think that, I think, I

4:52

believe, I believe Kay that she,

4:54

that's where she's where she's coming

4:56

from. Is it true or not?

4:58

Yeah, well I think what it

5:00

takes is one of those people

5:02

that is the like super skeptics.

5:04

Yeah. Remember they would like travel

5:06

the country, sometimes go to churches

5:08

and like expose the televangelists for

5:10

like using headphones, you know, and

5:12

these aren't being radio waves. So

5:15

it's not like a message from

5:17

God. Somebody's just like Sally in

5:19

seat 45. just lost their husband

5:21

right and then he's like I'm

5:23

getting a message wow and yeah

5:25

this guy who's like super skeptic

5:27

he has a check that he

5:29

carries around with him I think

5:31

it's a million dollars now and

5:33

if anyone can prove like psychic

5:35

ability he will give you that

5:37

money so I'm like we'll bring

5:39

him in for this yeah like

5:42

he can design the experiment yeah

5:44

to where he's satisfied and I

5:46

haven't heard of this guy And

5:48

yeah, I mean, there's a few

5:50

people that are trying to expose

5:52

these, you know. fraudsters and they

5:54

and all of them are exposed

5:56

yeah you know every one of

5:58

them is just try is they

6:00

just have different tricks well it's

6:02

like magicians like at this point

6:04

everybody knows you go to a

6:06

magic show it's a trick yeah

6:09

it's not real they did not

6:11

saw that woman in half right

6:13

but I think I think for

6:15

a while maybe people thought magicians

6:17

were the real deal they were

6:19

the psychics they were the telepathy

6:21

for sure they did and I

6:23

don't know the telepathy. But this

6:25

is why I'm in that position

6:27

to where of all the wacky

6:29

things that sometimes I like to

6:31

delve into and believe this one

6:34

I could just dismiss immediately even

6:36

without hearing it I'm like oh

6:38

dude we we would know if

6:40

people had this power stakes are

6:42

up right like if this is

6:44

the real deal all right like

6:46

yeah I'm I want to tune

6:48

in I want to know what

6:50

like keep me posted right I'm

6:52

going to follow this. It makes

6:54

me want to, you know, do

6:56

some of my own studies. You

6:58

know, at least talk to some

7:01

parents that have had this happen

7:03

and be like, all right, talk

7:05

me through this. Yeah. I mean,

7:07

you know, Kai was discussing how

7:09

when she was first introduced to

7:11

this, she'd been hearing these stories,

7:13

some teachers and parents discussed it.

7:15

It seems like teachers are connecting

7:17

well with the non speakers. Yeah,

7:19

well that was actually interesting. The

7:21

first person she studied was actually

7:23

a therapist. Or maybe the first

7:25

person they talk about on the

7:28

tapes, a therapist working with, I

7:30

guess, a nonverbal or a speller,

7:32

which I don't know if you

7:34

kind of got what that was.

7:36

I think it's people who can't

7:38

speak, but they can like point

7:40

to letters. And that was a

7:42

little hard to follow because they're

7:44

like, okay, what is a speller

7:46

and she's like, well, they're spelling

7:48

the words out. they've got this

7:50

interpreter. It was a little confusing.

7:52

Yeah. It doesn't mean that they're

7:55

in a spelling bee. Yeah. They

7:57

just have someone that helps them

7:59

physically spell. And I think that

8:01

is sort of, like I don't

8:03

know if you've seen these like

8:05

conspiracies about Stephen Hawking lately, where

8:07

people are like, oh, maybe he

8:09

was, he wasn't even there and

8:11

it was just like this thing,

8:13

you know, like he was like

8:15

a front man almost, you know,

8:17

because you watched initially before he

8:19

got the speaking spell, he'd sit

8:22

there and he kind of, and

8:24

somebody would say, oh, he's saying,

8:26

you know. time travel would be

8:28

possible if a wormhole were divided

8:30

in three you know or some

8:32

crazy stuff and you're like really

8:34

you got that out of that

8:36

like where how do we know

8:38

that's right he did have Cambridge

8:40

appointed transistors basically translators right oh

8:42

really yeah they were like PhDs

8:44

themselves okay so they understood what

8:46

he could be talking about right

8:49

and yeah they would kind of

8:51

interpret yeah some of the things

8:53

that he said that's an interesting

8:55

point so honestly like It's like,

8:57

did he say it? You know,

8:59

that whole idea of like, I

9:01

want to believe every time somebody

9:03

gives me a new conspiracy theory

9:05

or something. I'm like, all right,

9:07

like prove it. Yeah, this is

9:09

a cool one. Yeah, I want

9:11

to know. I feel like I

9:13

kind of get jaded. I'm like

9:16

disappointed now because I'm ready for

9:18

that evidence to be like, yeah,

9:20

no, aliens shot JFK or whatever

9:22

is, you know, like, I'm, I'm

9:24

so ready to believe the most

9:26

wild stuff. and I'm disappointed that

9:28

nobody can ever back it up.

9:30

And that's where it comes down.

9:32

It's like, how do you prove

9:34

these things? And this is why

9:36

this one's interesting, because I feel

9:38

like it's very provable. Even with

9:40

the issue that she said she

9:43

was coming up against and the

9:45

pushback that she gets, when they're

9:47

trying to make these stories valid,

9:49

is the speller helper, right? So

9:51

it's like there's some physical... But

9:53

at the same time, I'm like

9:55

if you're reading someone's mind that's

9:57

in a different room and the

9:59

helper hasn't even seen that person,

10:01

so there's a definite divide. Yeah.

10:03

Then even if the speller was

10:05

guiding something, then it would just

10:07

mean they have telepathy. Someone has

10:10

it. Right. One of the two

10:12

people have it. Right. Oh yeah,

10:14

that's a really good point. Yeah.

10:16

If I'm thinking, you know, blue

10:18

square and the spellers like, well,

10:20

she said something about blue and

10:22

square, even if you think spelling

10:24

is like a scam. It's like,

10:26

okay, well, how did she get

10:28

it? Exactly, that's my point. Okay,

10:30

no, they don't have it, but

10:32

spellers do, so who cares? Like,

10:34

somebody does. And, you know, all

10:37

you have to do is keep

10:39

switching out the speller to find

10:41

out if it's the other person.

10:43

Right. I mean, it's testable. Yeah.

10:45

Then though, where do you go

10:47

from that? Like, let's a non-speaking.

10:49

autistic kids. Then it's like, what

10:51

is it about that that allows

10:53

this to happen? You know, and

10:55

can they do brain scans and

10:57

see if there's some sort of

10:59

projection thing? Or like, how are

11:02

they tuning into it? The how?

11:04

Is this like, ether knowledge? Yeah.

11:06

Is that real? Like, it just

11:08

can send you down a whole,

11:10

like, scientific path of... Yeah, this

11:12

must be one of the most

11:14

interesting scientific things to explore right

11:16

now. Yeah, it's got to be

11:18

interesting. And I mean, I think

11:20

we've all got that, right? Like

11:22

she talks about the phone example.

11:24

You're like thinking of a friend

11:26

you haven't talked to in two

11:29

years and they call you up

11:31

or whatever it is. Or even

11:33

you're just thinking about your buddy

11:35

like, oh, what are we going

11:37

to... Oh, I need to call

11:39

them back and you get a

11:41

text right away. Like, I think

11:43

we all have some kind of

11:45

experience like that. I think so,

11:47

but it's so often dismissed. Yeah.

11:49

You know, it's like when people

11:51

are like, oh, I went to

11:53

this party and someone had the

11:56

same birthday as me. And there

11:58

was only like eight people there.

12:00

Well, then, you know, some mathematician

12:02

breaks it down and it's like

12:04

halves and averages. and that and

12:06

it's like there's a one in

12:08

five chance that would have happened

12:10

exactly like all these coincidences just

12:12

get kind of brushed off how

12:14

big of a deal are they

12:16

really right you know and they

12:18

will lay out things like oh

12:20

well you were thinking about this

12:23

person and then they called you

12:25

and you hadn't talked to him

12:27

for a while but you're also

12:29

thinking of 12 other people that

12:31

you didn't pay attention to it

12:33

so you just confirmation bias there's

12:35

like there's a bit of that

12:37

however You know not everything should

12:39

be you know throw the baby

12:41

out with the bathwater. It's like

12:43

if a lot of it is

12:45

that Coincidence fair enough right, but

12:47

maybe there's something else. Yeah, and

12:50

when when you have stuff like

12:52

this pop-up It makes you think

12:54

they did say what was it

12:56

the? Meeting place of the mind

12:58

is called the hill. Yeah, very

13:00

cool. Yeah, and one person could

13:02

get on the hill that wasn't

13:04

autistic. Yeah, but had some other

13:06

skills, I can't remember. They did

13:08

some deep dive into thought and

13:10

consciousness. Into their mind, that's right.

13:12

So when they showed up, it

13:14

wasn't in the same capacity. It

13:17

wasn't as clear, it was more

13:19

kind of mumble than blurry and

13:21

difficult for them to navigate. But

13:23

it does imply that maybe there

13:25

is a learnt skill potential for

13:27

anybody. And the only way you

13:29

can get that is to understand

13:31

what the heck is happening. Yeah,

13:33

and like what does that even

13:35

mean? You know, that's, she really

13:37

went for it. She's like, I

13:39

think this proves that, you know,

13:41

consciousness is what comes first and

13:44

matter comes second. It's like, hey,

13:46

that, sure, that's a good theory.

13:48

Right. I think she went, you

13:50

know, she went pretty big on

13:52

that, right? Like, there, you know,

13:54

this person can tell what number

13:56

I'm thinking, therefore matter isn't real,

13:58

mine comes first or something. It's

14:00

like, that's a big jump. That's

14:02

a big jump. Yeah, it's a

14:04

big theory. It's a big theory.

14:06

But the hill was wild, she

14:08

said. there was some gal, some

14:11

kid who was going to this

14:13

hill, told her family, hey I'm

14:15

going, I'm going to this hill

14:17

and I talk to people, here's

14:19

all the people I know, and

14:21

they were, they were people that

14:23

the family had never met, this

14:25

kid had never met, and they

14:27

verified all these names. That's wild.

14:29

I'm like, all right, now we're

14:31

getting someone. Now again someone. Yeah.

14:33

You know, if, let's, let's explore

14:35

the hill. Exactly. Yeah. Man, I

14:38

mean, running up that hill. Well,

14:40

just, how jealous are you of

14:42

not being able to do that?

14:44

When I hear that, I'm like,

14:46

wait, there's a place I can

14:48

never go, ever? Yeah. No matter

14:50

what? Yeah. Get all the money

14:52

in the world. I am never

14:54

allowed to go to the hill.

14:56

Well, she said you just got

14:58

to meditate. Get a meditate. I'm

15:00

never going to control my mind

15:03

well enough to get out. Yeah,

15:05

that's the problem might be you.

15:07

Amazing, and again that could be

15:09

testable, right? If you've got similar

15:11

people, all the same types of

15:13

people that are, you know, visiting

15:15

the hill, you arrange for a

15:17

meet-up, psychic meet-up, and then one

15:19

has a message to pass to

15:21

the other. It could be very

15:23

simple. for them to keep guessing

15:25

the right things. Right. And it

15:27

sounds like they've tried to do

15:30

that and they have, you know,

15:32

that first telepathy tape. She takes

15:34

this family and they've got this

15:36

daughter again who's, I guess, telepathic

15:38

or something and they, you know,

15:40

they have a three digit random

15:42

number generator. So, you know, one

15:44

to nine 99 or something like

15:46

that. They do 20 tests and

15:48

she gets everyone right. 20 out

15:50

of 20 out of 20. That

15:52

would be. What trillions? Baskuilians to

15:54

one? Pretty unlikely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

15:57

She should probably go play roulette

15:59

or something. Anyway, we're going to

16:01

be in trouble when we start

16:03

seeing people with groups of non-speaking

16:05

autistics and they're all in casinos

16:07

in Vegas. Like, all right, that's

16:09

exploitation. This is like a man

16:11

on steroids. Yeah, yeah, when Tom

16:13

Cruise takes his brother to the

16:15

casino, right? To count cards. Yeah,

16:17

he's like, all right, what can

16:19

we do with this? Similar. Of

16:21

course, that's the first thing you'd

16:24

think of. Yeah, but it's interesting.

16:26

So that first episode episode, she

16:28

like... She's so thorough, she brings

16:30

a friend on who's a skeptic,

16:32

who's a scientist, and she's like,

16:34

all right, you're my resident skeptic.

16:36

Put the blindfold on, see if

16:38

the blindfold works, you know, check

16:40

the camera angles, like is there

16:42

a reflection in the mirror? Is

16:44

the TV reflecting something? Like, make

16:46

sure we didn't miss anything. They

16:48

knock out 20 out of 20.

16:51

And she's like, all right, this

16:53

is it, we've got evidence. And

16:55

she has that all online. You

16:57

can go watch the five different

16:59

camera angles, you can watch the

17:01

setup, you can watch all the

17:03

test. Yeah, I mean, that's what

17:05

she says. She's like, yeah, if

17:07

you want to look at any

17:09

of this, go for it, it's

17:11

yours. So she thinks she's got

17:13

this bulletproof evidence, right? Nobody wants

17:15

to look at it. Why? But

17:18

this is what got me when

17:20

I heard it. I'm like, if

17:22

anyone came to you with this,

17:24

and now you're in a meeting

17:26

at work and all the rest

17:28

of the therapists are on there,

17:30

would everyone not be really interested?

17:32

Or would they just be like,

17:34

you're lunatic dude? It seems like

17:36

a safe enough space for you

17:38

to bring up something like that

17:40

and for people to show some

17:42

interest. Well if I told you,

17:45

or if you told me this,

17:47

like hey man. I know this

17:49

is crazy, but I've been, you

17:51

know, my friends has a, my

17:53

friend has a kid and he

17:55

can read my mind. I'd be

17:57

like, what? No, what do you

17:59

mean? Like, well, I, we tried

18:01

it. I'm like, well, like he

18:03

could tell you or... or something,

18:05

like, oh, we could read your

18:07

mind, you're like, no, we had

18:09

a random number generator, I was

18:12

in another room, and I guess

18:14

the number, he got it right

18:16

20 times in a row. I

18:18

would tell everybody if that happened

18:20

to me. I'd be blown away.

18:22

I wonder if then you become

18:24

like those people in the 80s

18:26

that were like, I was abducted

18:28

by aliens, and they're like, everyone,

18:30

that's John. John, that's John, that's

18:32

John. knows where the alien lives

18:34

and he can be like yeah

18:36

come over I'll introduce you yeah

18:39

the alien abducts me every Tuesday

18:41

it would there would be a

18:43

lot of validity in that yeah

18:45

exactly sure it's not a one-off

18:47

thing so if yeah if the

18:49

if the tests like that are

18:51

legit yeah well and and and

18:53

this is why shows like Rogan

18:55

are fantastic one he's brave enough

18:57

to have people like that on

18:59

yeah he talks for three hours

19:01

so it's not five-minute segment on

19:03

CNN that probably just gets, you

19:06

know, they just ridicule her or

19:08

just make it look silly. Bring

19:10

some other expert on who's like,

19:12

no, this is why it doesn't

19:14

work. Right. But now there's so

19:16

much exposure. We're talking millions and

19:18

millions of people who've watched this

19:20

episode. Yeah. I mean, you know.

19:22

And twice as much with your

19:24

listener. Well, listen, even to us

19:26

discuss it's like. There are people

19:28

out there that are going to

19:31

start building momentum for this lady.

19:33

People want to know about this.

19:35

This is really interesting. I mean,

19:37

I was pumped to have this

19:39

conversation with you. Yeah, same. I

19:41

had to drag you in on

19:43

a Sunday. Thank you. It was

19:45

kicking and screaming. But glad it

19:47

happened. Would I have even listened

19:49

to it? I don't know. You

19:51

know, it's like, you hear these

19:53

things. Oh, somebody proving telepathy is

19:55

real. You're like, yeah. I think

19:58

we're changing minds. I think inevitably

20:00

you hear things like this enough

20:02

and you can only be a

20:04

skeptic for so long, right? They

20:06

use the example of... like the

20:08

new world, you know? Some guys

20:10

like, hey, I think there's a

20:12

whole nother continent, you know, there's

20:14

a whole nother half of the

20:16

world we've never found. People are

20:18

like, eh, all right, yeah, cool

20:20

man. Like, sure, maybe, maybe. And

20:22

turns out there was, you know,

20:25

like, before we discovered the Americas,

20:27

we didn't know that like, there's

20:29

twice as much earth. Sure. Right?

20:31

And it took some lunatic who

20:33

thought he ended up in India,

20:35

by the way. Right. Right? Like

20:37

he wasn't even right about what

20:39

he thought. Mm-hmm. And I think

20:41

that's an interesting question. It's like,

20:43

you've got to follow your hunch.

20:45

Yeah. And, and, you know, you

20:47

don't know what you're proving, but

20:49

I think eventually, it's like, follow

20:52

that hunch and like, keep digging

20:54

if you're, maybe you'll turn something

20:56

up. Right. You may not even

20:58

understand what it is. And there

21:00

is a scientific process, right? It

21:02

can, that often is quite difficult

21:04

to apply to certain things you're

21:06

testing for. But this one seems

21:08

like it would line up, match,

21:10

and work for that process. And

21:12

once it's explained, I mean, I

21:14

just ran the numbers on that

21:16

guessing 20 things, and it's 100

21:19

to the power of 20 odds.

21:21

The word is duo. it's so

21:23

many billions that you don't even

21:25

know what it means take a

21:27

while to write it down yeah

21:29

nice you know yeah it's it

21:31

basically those sorts of numbers are

21:33

like more atoms than in the

21:35

universe chance so is that a

21:37

hundred followed by 20 zeros is

21:39

that what that means a lot

21:41

of zeros dang billion is what

21:43

nine zeros yeah it's a lot

21:46

more When you're working with those

21:48

kind of odds, it basically is

21:50

100% chance that that person has

21:52

telepathy. Right. Yeah. Or there's some

21:54

magic tricks going on. Oh, it's

21:56

the most amazing guess. Yeah. All

21:58

series of guesses. Or a really

22:00

clever gag. Right. Yeah. But at

22:02

a certain point, right? Like, the

22:04

gag, that's the thing about magicians,

22:06

right? One guy cuts somebody in

22:08

half. Give it enough time somebody

22:10

else figures out how they did

22:13

the trick. Mm-hmm. Like you can't

22:15

keep a trick going on forever.

22:17

No. And that's the whole point

22:19

of like science and. doing all

22:21

these tests at a certain point

22:23

you're like all right like we

22:25

would have figured out the trick

22:27

by now well it's it's all

22:29

about repeatable studies yeah that's what

22:31

makes something valid yeah you could

22:33

find one outcome one time no

22:35

matter how amazing it is yeah

22:37

and how well the study was

22:40

put together it doesn't mean anything

22:42

until they've repeated it through a

22:44

four times okay that's just how

22:46

it goes so they just have

22:48

to keep doing this one so

22:50

let's Okay. Then what? That's the

22:52

question. So there's a few things

22:54

I've been thinking about with that.

22:56

Then what? Like where do we

22:58

go from here, but also thinking

23:00

back, the nonverbal or non-speaking autistic

23:02

people have existed in the past.

23:04

How many of these hills or

23:07

conversations have carried on? What knowledge

23:09

is being passed around in that

23:11

area? What can be known? What

23:13

made me think about it is,

23:15

Kai mentioned, one individual could read

23:17

hieroglyphics. Yeah. Yeah, they definitely had

23:19

never seen any. Yeah. And no

23:21

one that knew them could decipher

23:23

any of those things. Yeah, there's

23:25

this thing, Qneiform B, I think

23:27

it is. Something B, and it's

23:29

this, you know, ancient script that

23:32

nobody's been able to translate. I

23:34

know Joe Rogan brought up that

23:36

like, man, you script, and that's

23:38

cool, but that's definitely more in

23:40

the realm of the realm of

23:42

just like. oddity unless you know

23:44

it's some secret to the or

23:46

something. But if you may have

23:48

Form B, it's like, it's an

23:50

example in linguistics where nobody's ever

23:52

figured it out. Is it like

23:54

for sure ancient text? They know

23:56

it's on like old tablets. Yeah,

23:59

this is not like a one-off

24:01

thing. It's something they find, I

24:03

think, regularly, and they're just like,

24:05

yeah, we don't really know what

24:07

to do with it. Yeah, well,

24:09

I mean, hieroglyphics, we couldn't decipher

24:11

until like late 1800. Here we

24:13

go. And we're just hitting our

24:15

head against a wall before that.

24:17

But yeah, it would be amazing

24:19

to see one of these kids

24:21

down and say, hey, can you

24:23

make any sense of this? The

24:26

only problem with the outcome of

24:28

that is it would be hard

24:30

to verify. Yeah, right? I mean,

24:32

not necessarily. Because I mean, that's

24:34

like, you know, linguistics in a

24:36

nutshell. It's like cracking a code.

24:38

Like, you know you cracked the

24:40

code like in World War II.

24:42

Oh, because you can translate a

24:44

bunch of things that makes a

24:46

bunch of things that makes sense

24:48

that makes sense that makes sense.

24:50

Right. You know, you're like, oh,

24:53

they just gave us coordinates to

24:55

where the sub is, and it's

24:57

100 miles different a day later.

24:59

That's a good point. So if

25:01

you, if you then ask them,

25:03

all right, so we're gonna, based

25:05

on what you told us, we're

25:07

gonna write another type of sentence,

25:09

yeah, based on that, and then

25:11

with these patterns, and then we'll

25:13

have you read that one. Yeah,

25:15

or just like translate this one

25:17

for us. Great. And now we

25:20

go translate this. you know in

25:22

the warehouse and it all just

25:24

starts making sense yeah yeah imagine

25:26

if it's just stories about nonverbal

25:28

autistic kids and how they can

25:30

read minds yeah and it's like

25:32

what oh man we were waiting

25:34

for this yeah that'd be some

25:36

like uh inception kind of stuff

25:38

I've never even heard of that

25:40

that language that's interesting I don't

25:42

think it's like it's not like

25:44

the hieroglyphics where we've got these

25:47

crazy tombs with all this mysterious

25:49

writing it's like some clay tablets.

25:51

But still, yeah, it's cool stuff.

25:53

I would like to know about

25:55

it. Yeah, exactly. And that is

25:57

interesting when you say, you know,

25:59

it's known in linguistics as like,

26:01

you know, probably lots and lots

26:03

of people have tried to decide

26:05

for this. They probably have AI

26:07

on it. Yeah, they probably already

26:09

figured it out and I'm just

26:11

don't know anything anymore. Yeah, we

26:14

look into it. Yeah, typed it

26:16

into chat. EPT. But yeah, other

26:18

than kind of going back and

26:20

thinking about through history, who noticed

26:22

this, who. his utilised this for

26:24

different things. I mean, it wouldn't

26:26

be weird now to hear a

26:28

story of, you know, Alexander the

26:30

Great, having some sort of mystic

26:32

person like Sears and like that

26:34

was able to kind of help

26:36

him figure out where the armies

26:38

are, you know, and those sorts

26:41

of stories are easy to just

26:43

dismiss. Be like, oh, they were

26:45

just into their weird witchcraft, religious

26:47

stuff back then. But then all

26:49

of a sudden, you're like, hold

26:51

on. Yeah. Maybe people did know

26:53

something and that leads into where

26:55

do we go from here? Totally.

26:57

Which is really exploring this land.

26:59

Yeah. And even just like you

27:01

and I or anybody else who

27:03

hears this podcast, you know, listens

27:05

to her telepathy tapes. It's like,

27:08

what do you make of it?

27:10

Like, um. People can

27:12

read minds. People can go to

27:14

some place in their mind and

27:16

talk to other people and they

27:18

all have the same story. And

27:20

that was an interesting part. She's

27:23

like, hey, this is nothing new.

27:25

Like thinking that you can get

27:27

messages in a dream. This is

27:29

nothing that most cultures, most individuals

27:31

have some experience in or belief

27:33

in, right? If anything, the oddity

27:35

here is the fact that our

27:37

mainstream thought or science writes it

27:39

all off. You know, it'd be

27:42

like if, you know, mainstream science

27:44

is like, well, emotions, those aren't

27:46

really real, right? Like you can't

27:48

prove them. I know everybody says

27:50

they feel them, but like, yeah,

27:52

I mean, show me one. in

27:54

a lab. Right. Put your finger

27:56

on it, put it in a

27:59

box, put it in a test

28:01

tube. You can't. Give me a

28:03

10 mil liters of anger. Yeah,

28:05

that's right. Although that might be

28:07

a little easier. I guess hormones

28:09

are a thing. It's just a

28:11

bunch of adrenaline. Yeah. You know,

28:13

it's a good point. And, you

28:16

know, back to the whole kind

28:18

of, it's a different place. I

28:20

mean, in a way we kind

28:22

of do that with dreams, right.

28:24

in a different place and you

28:26

know obviously it's all internal right

28:28

it's just happening in your mind

28:30

but maybe there's something that I

28:32

mean if people can read your

28:35

mind maybe they can interact with

28:37

the dream portion of you too

28:39

and there could be a whole

28:41

opening there that's similar to the

28:43

phenomena of like lucid dreaming for

28:45

example right and if you're out

28:47

there and you're listening to this

28:49

and you've never lucid dreamed Hopefully

28:52

one day that happens to you

28:54

in your life. Often it's just

28:56

random. You can kind of train

28:58

for it. They have some books

29:00

that are pretty useful. And it

29:02

is one of the strangest experiences

29:04

you can ever have. Fully waking

29:06

up, but being in your dream.

29:09

And seeing the detail and the

29:11

complexities, oftentimes the colors are like

29:13

even more astounding than real life.

29:15

And then you're like, oh, we

29:17

can just make this in our

29:19

minds. It really makes you think

29:21

when you wake up, oh, I'm

29:23

definitely making all of what I

29:25

see just through the interpretation. It's

29:28

like my brain is, everything's reflecting.

29:30

I see the people, it's bouncing

29:32

off the walls, all these things.

29:34

That is being then reconstructed in

29:36

my mind. Right. And we often

29:38

just don't think of it that

29:40

way. Yeah. Just like, oh, I'm

29:42

just looking around. you know, we

29:45

see like 1% of the electromagnetic

29:47

spectrum like our eyes see one

29:49

percent of what's truly visible in

29:51

like a scientific sense or something

29:53

like that you know yeah shrimp

29:55

see like a hundred times more

29:57

than we do some random shrimp

29:59

can see way more than we

30:02

do whatever that heck that purpose

30:04

is for like I don't know

30:06

what a shrimp needs to see

30:08

but something can they see like

30:10

infrared or something which is like

30:12

really unusual or maybe that's goldfish

30:14

yeah I don't know I mean

30:16

snakes see they have like a

30:18

little nose almost and they can

30:21

see infrared they have like a

30:23

second set of eyes can quote

30:25

unquote eyes and they can like

30:27

see a mouse in the dark

30:29

they can feel the heat right

30:31

see the heat basically and don't

30:33

they say sharks can pick up

30:35

like electric signals in the ocean

30:38

probably they have some sort of

30:40

sense for that I mean it

30:42

is a good point right it's

30:44

like even right now in this

30:46

room we have Wi-Fi yeah technically

30:48

with that you can have All

30:50

the information that is ever been

30:52

stored anywhere is there. Right. And

30:55

now I guess this is not

30:57

a great example because the computer

30:59

has to ask for it. Yeah.

31:01

Maybe radio waves are better. Yeah.

31:03

They're all in this room for

31:05

all of the stations that are

31:07

close to where we are. We

31:09

can't hear any of them. Right.

31:11

But if we have... Well the

31:14

phone can see the Wi-Fi and

31:16

we can't. It's a good point.

31:18

Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. What are

31:20

we missing? Well,

31:22

I just think that there are

31:24

obviously a lot to still discover

31:26

that we don't know about. Yeah.

31:28

And on top of that, it's

31:30

like, you know, what are these

31:32

places like? Oh man, don't you

31:35

want to go? I want to

31:37

know what's going on on the

31:39

hill. Yeah, I wish there was

31:41

more of a description of what

31:43

they see as well. She kind

31:45

of got into that, like describing...

31:47

you know how the image appears

31:49

and well it sounds like they're

31:51

making like a video documentary and

31:53

she has some nonverbal people on

31:56

the team and they're working on

31:58

the That's great. They're going to

32:00

like draw the hill. Yeah, what

32:02

a good idea. Isn't that cool?

32:04

They're the only ones that could

32:06

do it. Yeah, they've been there.

32:08

Mark Apollo, like tell us about

32:10

what you saw. Yeah. What did

32:12

you think about the teacher that

32:14

noticed that one of her students

32:16

could basically communicate with her at

32:19

any point? She could be at

32:21

home and she had to kind

32:23

of create a boundary and say,

32:25

hey, you can't keep jumping into

32:27

my mind. I'm an adult. Right?

32:29

I'm doing adult things. You're a

32:31

child. It's not appropriate. Like what

32:33

a strange boundary ethical dilemma that

32:35

is. I think this is the

32:37

most interesting part of this is

32:39

like, all right, like what have

32:42

you, when have you seen this,

32:44

right? Like I was thinking about

32:46

this Joe Rogan was talking about

32:48

aliens and like on this episode

32:50

and how Like you read these

32:52

you watch these people who are

32:54

like yeah, I work at the

32:56

secret facility I'm a whistleblower You

32:58

know, they've got aliens down there

33:00

and they've got all this and

33:02

they're doing all this stuff and

33:05

he's like you don't believe it

33:07

like it doesn't Sound true. Mm-hmm.

33:09

But like he gives this example

33:11

of somebody his friends that got

33:13

attacked by a brown bear in

33:15

Alaska and he's like when somebody

33:17

tells you that story It just

33:19

reads is true right You can't

33:21

make that up. The way this

33:23

guy is telling this story, you

33:26

can't make it up. Well, that

33:28

was Steve Renella and his crew

33:30

from Meetita and then other hunters.

33:32

So, like, very serious, legit people

33:34

that aren't likely to be when

33:36

a bunch of them decide to

33:38

fabricate a story like that. It's

33:40

pretty lame if it isn't true.

33:42

Right. It's like, come on. Yeah,

33:44

you of all people don't need

33:46

to make this up. You've got

33:49

enough cool stories on this topic.

33:51

And yeah, the point there is

33:53

what what adds to the credibility

33:55

is like, you know, none of

33:57

these people are known for exaggerating

33:59

really any other types of stories.

34:01

So with like aliens I don't

34:03

know if you've ever if you

34:05

have a friend or have anyone

34:07

you know personally that has told

34:09

you an experience of like dude

34:12

I saw this thing I don't

34:14

know what it is I could

34:16

be wrong but this is what

34:18

I saw. Oh yeah I have

34:20

a bunch. You're like, damn. Like

34:22

it hits different. For a while,

34:24

it was a question I asked

34:26

almost everybody. In my lifetime, I've

34:28

had a point where I was

34:30

just like with, you know, people

34:33

that I just get to know

34:35

are friends. I'm like, hey, just

34:37

curious, you ever had this? I'm

34:39

always fascinated. And a lot of

34:41

people, it's mostly just something in

34:43

the sky they can explain. Is

34:45

that a thing like podcasters and

34:47

aliens? Like you're all just interested

34:49

in aliens? Well, I certainly am.

34:51

And I'm a podcaster, so... Two

34:53

out of two, yeah. It's like

34:56

right away. Yeah. It seems like

34:58

it seems like a lot of

35:00

podcasters are interested in that. That's

35:02

true. But you know, I guess

35:04

we're a weird bunch. Yeah, well,

35:06

you know, I mean, we've all

35:08

got something. I think that's where

35:10

this conversation to me gets more

35:12

interesting. It's like, you ask anybody,

35:14

just like, just like the aliens,

35:16

I guess, maybe not as much.

35:19

about what they're talking about on

35:21

the telepathy tapes. Like what have

35:23

you experienced? And I guess you

35:25

personally Adam, like have you ever

35:27

had something like this happened where

35:29

you're like, eh, I can't really

35:31

explain it any other way. Like

35:33

dreams, you mentioned dreams, have you

35:35

ever had like a dream where

35:37

you're like, dang, I dreamt that

35:40

my car was gonna break down

35:42

and this random dude was gonna

35:44

like, you know. whatever find a

35:46

mouse in my ignition switch or

35:48

something and then whoa the next

35:50

day there was a mouse in

35:52

my ignition or anything like that

35:54

sadly I haven't had that type

35:56

of coincidence line up sure however

35:58

And a lot of people experience

36:00

this. I've had some very bizarre,

36:03

a deja vu moments. And they

36:05

feel very much when they're happening

36:07

is like, well, one, they feel

36:09

very real. And I know they

36:11

get dismissed quickly as just like

36:13

your brain spasming for a second

36:15

or whatever they say about it.

36:17

But there are experiences where I'm

36:19

like, oh, I've one, I've not

36:21

only done this before. This is

36:23

actually an old memory. So I've

36:26

known about. doing this thing before

36:28

for a long time. And there's

36:30

there's something odd there that happens.

36:32

I think that's the most interesting

36:34

thing about what she's doing. It's

36:36

not that unfamiliar. You know, like

36:38

if you read an article that

36:40

said somebody just proves scientifically undeniably

36:42

that you can tell when somebody's

36:44

a close friend is about to

36:46

call you. you'd be like no

36:49

shit that makes sense right I

36:51

don't know how they proved it

36:53

that's wild that that's true but

36:55

it's not like someone is saying

36:57

I don't know we live on

36:59

a different planet we never knew

37:01

it right you're like it's not

37:03

that far-fetched yeah and I would

37:05

I don't need a ton of

37:07

evidence to be like oh there's

37:10

something here yeah I mean there

37:12

are just unexplained things that we

37:14

just know yeah that's how it

37:16

is yeah it's like the little

37:18

bit of magic I mean it's

37:20

the placebo effect with medicine 50%

37:22

of the efficacy of any medication

37:24

that works is the placebo effect.

37:26

It's just that you knew you

37:28

took it and then somehow you're

37:30

actually feeling better. Yeah. It's very

37:33

strange. Right. And you know, it's

37:35

amazing that we don't study how

37:37

to use that. Well, we kind

37:39

of do because we make medicine

37:41

that way. So there's this and

37:43

it's... It's its own level of

37:45

contradictory because you've got on the

37:47

one hand all the riggers that

37:49

go into... to testing and medicine

37:51

and the science behind it and

37:53

it's very scientific. You know, they

37:56

want to make it provable and

37:58

they have to represent it and

38:00

then there's pushback. Yeah, there's this

38:02

whole other half of the chemistry

38:04

and they're like, well, this bit,

38:06

we just name it this, but

38:08

it's basically magic and we don't

38:10

know. And that's your background is

38:12

biochemical, right? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't

38:14

deal with medicines much. I just

38:17

know, you know, what the placebo

38:19

is and kind of how it

38:21

relates to medicine. but in a

38:23

similar way it's like there's a

38:25

there's a space for this telepathy

38:27

totally it's like all right we

38:29

can't explain it's kind of like

38:31

magic yeah and we just put

38:33

it in the box next to

38:35

all the rest of this did

38:37

you ever see the men who

38:40

stare at goats oh yeah yeah

38:42

it's a it's like the CIA

38:44

thing yeah and it was sort

38:46

of like a sort of documentary

38:48

like at the beginning of the

38:50

movie they say some of the

38:52

events in this are true Which

38:54

is a funny way to start

38:56

something, right? Yeah. They don't tell

38:58

you what. No. But, um, there's

39:00

some truth in this. The military

39:03

forever has been like, they're sort

39:05

of the least skeptical when it

39:07

comes to studying things. They're like,

39:09

all right, is this bullshit? Who

39:11

knows? Let's, let's find out. What

39:13

are they call it? Astro projecting?

39:15

Yeah. They've studied this for a

39:17

long time. Yeah. Because they're like,

39:19

hey, if it works, we don't

39:21

really care. Why or how. if

39:24

we can use it we will

39:26

yeah yeah yeah well hopefully they

39:28

don't get it first it makes

39:30

you think like yeah what else

39:32

are they studying oh probably if

39:34

you could see all the absurd

39:36

things they'd studied I bet you

39:38

just bust overlap. Oh, no doubt.

39:40

Yeah. They're trying everything. Yeah, you

39:42

give them a big enough budget.

39:44

They're gonna, they're gonna try. I

39:47

mean, they were like the first

39:49

ones who were interested in psychedelics.

39:51

Mm-hmm. They're like, yeah. That's true.

39:53

Maybe we could gas all of

39:55

Germany with LSD. Oh, well, there's

39:57

not. Maybe they should have. There's

39:59

that whole video. those British soldiers

40:01

on LSD. It's like black and

40:03

white. It's real old. Right. And

40:06

they're just walking around the woods

40:08

and they're just trying to see

40:10

if they follow orders. Yeah. They're

40:12

just all laughing. Yeah. Like none

40:15

of them are doing anything useful.

40:17

They're like, all right. Maybe this

40:19

doesn't work. Yeah. Well, maybe this

40:21

doesn't work. Yeah. They probably thought

40:24

they'd turn into super soldiers could

40:26

read mines or something. Yeah. Would

40:28

you look at a bug or something?

40:30

Would you if this is like research

40:32

fully they go into a deep they'd

40:34

like you know they create a process

40:37

for like this is kind of what

40:39

we think happens and how they

40:41

get their minds there and then

40:43

they come up with some sort

40:45

of training for it even if

40:48

it's like quite complicated and long

40:50

wouldn't you want to do that?

40:52

I would want to train. to

40:54

be able to be even a

40:56

tiny bit telepathic. Yeah. How useful

40:59

could that be? Yeah. Well, I

41:01

think it's interesting because,

41:03

right, I'm a therapist and so

41:06

much of what you have to

41:08

do in a therapy room is

41:10

lean into the intuitive

41:12

side of being a human,

41:14

right? Like if you're too

41:16

rational, like, who wants to

41:19

talk to someone about like

41:21

the nitty gritty? inner part of

41:23

life if you're just talking to

41:25

somebody who's in their head like

41:28

just analyzing you I don't want to

41:30

do that if I'm trying to work

41:32

out something real and big I want

41:34

somebody who's like deep in it in

41:37

life like in their own experience in

41:39

my experience like all in right yeah

41:41

and I think if we're all in

41:43

our head if we're like thinking in

41:46

the theory like that doesn't do

41:48

much for me personally, when I'm

41:50

interacting with someone like that, I

41:52

don't get a lot out of it.

41:54

Sometimes it seems like the more detail

41:57

somebody goes into describing something, let's say

41:59

a a scary event that happened in

42:01

your lifetime. The more detail you go

42:04

into, while you're sat in front of

42:06

me explaining it, the more you concentrate

42:08

on the details to get as much

42:10

information to me, it's almost like the

42:13

further away you get from the emotion

42:15

of the actual thing. It's like, I

42:17

was very scared during this. Well, I

42:20

need to know how scared, but also

42:22

what happened. But then ultimately, the details

42:24

are not as important is like... How

42:26

big is this fear and how much

42:29

of it are you carrying all the

42:31

time? That's the message that's hard to

42:33

get. I don't need to understand I

42:36

need to feel you. Right. More or

42:38

less. It seems more helpful if you're

42:40

trying to figure out how to help

42:42

that person. Now as an investigator or

42:45

a police officer or a detective, you

42:47

need those, you know, you're not looking

42:49

to to kind of cure something with

42:52

the individual, you need the story. So

42:54

there's just different ways of doing it.

42:56

Yeah, as a police officer on an

42:58

investigation, you don't, it might not even

43:01

be helpful to know how someone felt.

43:03

Sure. Right? You got to know where

43:05

you can go with the facts. Right.

43:08

Okay, did they turn left or did

43:10

they turn right? Yeah, if they say

43:12

that they were massively afraid and in

43:15

shock, you're like, I believe you. But

43:17

it also might make their story less

43:19

credible. Yeah. Because people can't remember things

43:21

as well. under those conditions. They might

43:24

just be too stressed. Yeah. Well, maybe

43:26

autism is gonna save the world, you

43:28

know, like the whole Temple Grandin thing,

43:31

you know, she like could see, she

43:33

could see what the cows could see,

43:35

like what does that mean? I don't

43:37

know. Who is this? Temple Grandin. So

43:40

she was like, I think in the

43:42

70s, she's an autistic girl and she

43:44

had some really good like, mentors that

43:47

like believed in her because she's very

43:49

sharp you know and she kind of

43:51

got pushed kind of stuck in the

43:53

corner at school and eventually found like

43:56

some mentors who are like, hey, no,

43:58

you know, you're very, you're very bright.

44:00

You're very coherent. Let me help you

44:03

out. Let me find an area where

44:05

you can put your uniqueness to the,

44:07

you know, to work. Yeah, put it

44:09

to work. And she actually sort of

44:12

revolutionized ironically cattle slaughtering. But because she

44:14

was able, she could go into a

44:16

feed lot, she was really interested in

44:19

animals. She could go into a feed

44:21

lot or go into a slaughterhouse and

44:23

be like, what are you doing? This

44:26

is the stupidest thing ever. Like, you

44:28

know, if she could see, right, like

44:30

they see a reflection and it spooks

44:32

them, or they hear a loud noise

44:35

and it freaks them out, and you

44:37

know. God bless them, a bunch of

44:39

like cattle rough necks, right? They don't

44:42

care. They're like, ah, dumb cows, like,

44:44

push them through, push harder if they're

44:46

not going push harder, that kind of

44:48

thing. And she developed this whole, there's

44:51

a good movie on it, but she

44:53

developed this whole, like this new method

44:55

of getting them through a dunk tank,

44:58

because you gotta put them through a

45:00

dunk tank to like sterilize them before

45:02

you kill them and things like that.

45:04

and you could get them going through

45:07

at a steady stream and just get

45:09

them through to the slaughter. And then

45:11

they were less stressed. Very calm, right?

45:14

Yeah. And a bunch of things. Yeah.

45:16

Exactly. A bunch of things you could

45:18

only know if you could see it

45:20

the way the cows are seeing it.

45:23

And that's like a little less supernatural,

45:25

right? Because you just get it. You're

45:27

like, oh, they're freaking out. I can

45:30

think like a cow. I know how

45:32

a cow works, right. And you know

45:34

like Caesar Milan the dog trainer like

45:37

anybody who's good at what they do

45:39

we kind of grant that we're like

45:41

oh I'll give you that you you

45:43

understand it better than anyone else you

45:46

can see this in a way that

45:48

nobody else can yeah we're very comfortable

45:50

with that but that was her thing

45:53

she's very autistic and she was able

45:55

to have this brilliant insight into something

45:57

that like rationally trying to hit your

45:59

head against a wall you'd never get

46:02

to. Nice I want to check that

46:04

out for sure. Yeah I mean you

46:06

know thank goodness she came up with

46:09

something really useful for that skill because

46:11

when you first started to talk about

46:13

it I thought to myself how lame

46:15

is that that if you get the

46:18

type of telepathy where you can only

46:20

communicate with cows right and you just

46:22

like all they do is think about

46:25

grass yeah and mooing. You're like, listen

46:27

to me, everybody, they're like, all right,

46:29

cool, we believe you, moving on. Like,

46:31

of course it was thinking about grass.

46:34

It's what they, you know, I could

46:36

have told you that. It just goes

46:38

nowhere. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. All right.

46:41

So there's more examples of this type

46:43

of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I got to

46:45

check out the telepathy tapes. I want

46:48

to. I think it's not that long,

46:50

right. It's like six, I think so.

46:52

I think so. Yeah. I'm looking forward

46:54

to the movie. I want to check

46:57

it out, I want to see the

46:59

movie, and more importantly, I want to

47:01

see if this picks up any more

47:04

momentum and, you know, become something that

47:06

is accepted, analyzed, studied, and, you know,

47:08

in a weird way, it's giving, it

47:10

gives the potential of a large voice.

47:13

to people that can't even speak at

47:15

all. Yeah. And I think for me,

47:17

the most interesting follow-up after all this

47:20

is like, I'm gonna talk to more

47:22

people about this. Be like, what? Yeah,

47:24

when do you think of somebody before

47:26

they call? Or have you ever had

47:29

moments where you had a dream and

47:31

it came true? Like, I don't know,

47:33

it's interesting, why not talk about it?

47:36

It's cool. Yeah. because you might just

47:38

find oh this is happening all the

47:40

time to people yeah and it's one

47:42

of those things it just doesn't get

47:45

talked about and it gets easily dismissed

47:47

and they're good stories it's good stories

47:49

all right thank you and for being

47:52

here thanks everyone for listening we appreciate

47:54

you as always and check this one

47:56

out and we'll talk to you guys

47:59

later adios You