4:00

different people in your family circle, handled

4:03

that shift in their understanding of your

4:05

sort of core identity. That's

4:09

a long journey. Yeah. I

4:12

did not know that being gay was a thing. So

4:15

to come into my identity was to first

4:18

start to recognize that something about me

4:21

was what I felt off was

4:23

different. But those

4:25

feelings I had no name for. So

4:29

for many of those first years, I think it must have

4:31

been somewhere around fifth grade.

4:34

I started to feel different and recognize

4:36

that I was obviously gay,

4:39

but I didn't have the words for it. And

4:42

it really wasn't until high school that

4:45

I was starting to

4:47

recognize that this could be the

4:49

thing that really

4:51

prevents me from one, either living an

4:53

authentic life and being

4:55

alive and into

4:58

losing my family. I

5:00

just, I lived so

5:02

many years not understanding

5:04

who I was or what

5:06

these feelings meant deep in the

5:08

closet, fearful that I'd lose my family. Then

5:11

then I ran away to Germany, my senior year

5:13

of high school on an exchange program, which really

5:15

was the first time that I'd found the language

5:17

for it. But my

5:20

upbringing here in Northern Michigan was sort

5:23

of pure Americana.

5:25

I mean, I was running around in

5:27

the backyard and my dad was taking

5:29

us on fishing trips and we would

5:31

camp underneath the stars and we would

5:33

sell Christmas trees in the

5:35

winter as a family. I mean, a really

5:38

beautiful upbringing, but we just never acknowledged the

5:40

existence of gay people. The

5:43

other thing about your upbringing that I

5:45

feel we must mention is that you're

5:47

a champion pit spitter. Yeah,

5:51

I mean, Traverse City's home to the National

5:54

Cherry Festival or the cherry capital of the

5:56

world. And so childhood

5:59

was cherry. very Pitt Spit contests

6:01

and riding on my grandpa's tractor

6:03

through his cheery orchard, you know.

6:07

I was a 4-H kid, I was raising

6:09

goats from a young age and then dairy

6:11

feeders and then steers in high school. But

6:14

all the while thinking I had to be one type

6:16

of kid. Very religious

6:19

family, conservative setting. Did

6:21

it mess with every day of your life

6:23

from fifth grade on or were there whole

6:26

periods where you could convince yourself

6:28

that you were gonna be

6:31

on the same road as everybody else you knew?

6:34

Every day. Every day. Every

6:38

day knowing that something about you was different and

6:40

if anyone were to find out that

6:43

secret that it could potentially ruin everything.

6:46

Did you feel suicidal?

6:50

All the time, yeah. Oftentimes

6:53

feeling like that would have been the easiest route

6:55

for me but also the easiest route for my

6:57

family. Many of

6:59

my fears weren't necessarily that I

7:02

would be abused or that my dad

7:04

would say, you know, no son of mine's gay, get out

7:06

of my house, I never wanna see you again. I

7:09

was also really fearful that I would be such

7:11

an embarrassment to them. My

7:14

parents are well known in the community, you

7:17

know, big small business. I

7:19

was so fearful that if anyone found out that

7:21

Sherry and Terry's kid was gay, that it would

7:23

be more embarrassing to them that they would lose

7:25

their friends, that they would lose family members, that

7:28

they would be ostracized, kicked out

7:30

of their church and it

7:32

would be worse to inflict that kind of pain on

7:34

them than

7:37

to no longer be here. How

7:41

did you find your way out of

7:43

that moment, of that repeated moment it

7:45

sounds like? In

7:48

a way I think I'm still finding my way out of it.

7:51

I think when you live 18 years

7:54

of your life, I'm about to

7:56

turn 35, that's the majority of

7:58

your life. When

8:00

you live 18 years of your life thinking that

8:03

something about you was wrong or twisted or broken,

8:06

you have to spend, at least

8:08

once you're able to come out of the closet or start

8:10

to see the sun, you have to spend a lot

8:12

of time picking apart the pieces of yourself that

8:14

you created. You

8:17

have to figure out what parts of

8:20

you are real and what parts of

8:22

you you just made up to protect

8:24

yourself from the world around you. And

8:27

in a way, I feel like I'm still figuring that

8:29

out. But it

8:31

was that year in Germany where I

8:33

made friends who made me feel

8:35

safe enough to come out. And

8:37

when I came out, it wasn't a thing at all to

8:40

have someone affirm you and to love you for who you

8:42

are. That's

8:44

what gave me the courage to keep going. And

8:46

then when I went back home, enough

8:49

courage to eventually come out because I felt

8:51

like I at least had seen

8:53

a glimmer of hope and

8:55

I wanted to know what that was like. I

8:58

wanted to know what it was like to be

9:00

loved, to find love, to fall in love. Of

9:03

course, at that time, it wasn't possible to get married

9:05

or have a family, but I'd always

9:08

had those dreams. And I was curious

9:11

to see if any of them would come true. Do

9:13

you think there was a part of

9:15

you that knew that a context change

9:18

could create a road,

9:21

meaning leaving your town and

9:23

going to Germany might produce

9:26

the conditions that would allow

9:28

you to let the

9:31

bubble all the way up and out? I

9:33

think that was my hope for Germany. I mean,

9:35

I had studied German for four

9:38

years in high school and was a pretty

9:40

good student. The idea

9:42

of Germany was, this is my ticket out of this town.

9:45

And the only way to even see if

9:48

you can survive in this world is to get out

9:50

of this town. And

9:53

so applying for the scholarship was

9:55

not academic-based. I

9:59

wanted to go back home. to the other side of the world.

10:01

And I wanted to see

10:04

if I could survive and if I could survive

10:07

myself. Who

10:10

was the person you were most afraid to

10:12

tell? My

10:14

mom, my mom at

10:17

first, and then my grandma. I

10:20

was definitely a momma's boy. And

10:23

I knew my mom loved me. But

10:26

when you think that love

10:28

is conditional, that you

10:30

will only be loved if you're the

10:32

good Christian boy, if you're the good

10:34

conservative cowboy, if you

10:37

promise a wife and two and a half kids

10:39

at the minivan and the white picket fence, then

10:42

you will receive mom's love.

10:44

But if you were anything outside of

10:46

the norm, at least that's what I thought. It's not as

10:48

if my mom ever told me that. That

10:52

was just expected. How

10:54

did it go? Awful.

10:58

And I just, I

11:01

had come out to some friends and

11:04

had told them, I can't

11:07

take this anymore. And

11:10

I just need to pull off the band-aid, so to

11:12

speak. And I

11:14

didn't have the courage to tell my mom, so I wrote her a letter. And

11:18

I had talked to a friend about coming and sleeping

11:20

on her couch for a while. And

11:24

I went home and I packed some bags. And

11:27

my mom was folding laundry, a nice

11:31

sunny summer day. Windows

11:33

were open, curtains were blowing in the wind.

11:36

Mom was sitting in the recliner. And

11:40

I just handed her the letter and said, I'm

11:42

sorry. The

11:45

rest is a little fuzzy. Uh-huh.

11:51

Didn't even have the guts to tell my dad. Yeah.

12:00

Yeah. That's kind of a

12:02

mean way of talking to yourself. Didn't

12:04

have the guts, I didn't even have the courage to

12:07

say it out loud. Like, whatever, you

12:09

found your way to communicate it to them. I

12:11

don't want you being mean to my new friends.

12:13

I think you're absolutely right. And

12:18

that's part of the constant work, right? When you

12:20

look back on yourself and wish that you could

12:24

have done something different. I was

12:26

working within what I had and what

12:29

I knew. And you're

12:32

right, I should be much kinder to that younger kid.

12:35

Yeah. That's

12:37

a courage. I could never have

12:40

gone, I knew my dad was in this garage in

12:43

his workshop. And I

12:46

couldn't even walk through that door. I had to go

12:48

out on a different door. So

12:50

your heart's pounding. Your mom

12:52

has this information. How

12:55

long until you heard from her? Five

12:57

minutes. She called me as I

13:01

was driving away and asked

13:03

why I was leaving. And I just kept saying, I'm

13:05

sorry. And

13:07

she asked if I was sure. I

13:12

know there was this moment on the couch

13:14

where she opened the letter and immediately started

13:16

crying. And I want to

13:18

give my mom a lot of grace because this was a

13:20

different time. And my mom is our

13:22

biggest ally. And she

13:25

loves her grandkids. And we have such

13:27

a fantastic relationship. So I

13:29

just want to preface all these stories with that. I

13:32

remember her asking if I was sick. And

13:35

I think my mom might've thought that

13:37

I had AIDS. Oh. And

13:42

we just didn't know then, right?

13:44

None of us had the language to

13:47

say what we wanted to say. And

13:50

there was so much

13:53

room for growth there. And

13:55

I'm so grateful that it happened. Because

13:59

not everybody was sick. gets that. And

14:02

now looking back, I understand what my mom was trying

14:04

to do was find a way to connect with me,

14:07

find a way to work through

14:09

this together. But I was, you know, young

14:12

and scared and naive and

14:17

had already made up my mind. My

14:20

family will hate me. I'm going to

14:22

lose my family. I'm an embarrassment. I

14:24

have to run. But I don't think

14:27

I was even receptive to her

14:29

putting out feelers for some sort

14:31

of connection or understanding. So yeah,

14:35

she, she called me five minutes after I left

14:37

and asked if I was

14:39

sure. And I was just so embarrassed. Um,

14:48

when was the next time you saw her in person? A couple

14:51

months. I

14:53

was going to the community college and

14:57

working at the hospital. There might

14:59

have been times where I would see her at the grocery store

15:01

or the hospital. We both worked at the hospital. I don't

15:04

remember those times, but

15:06

the significant connection came a couple months later

15:09

when I think she had sort of heard

15:11

that I was, you know, sleeping

15:13

on friends' couches and I would occasionally sleep in

15:15

my car. And,

15:17

and she just said, come home and we'll figure

15:20

it out. And

15:22

I, I drove right home. That's

15:27

where you were waiting for. Yeah. Come

15:30

home. I think so

15:32

much of that hurt can be avoided if our

15:34

parents just sit us down when we're young and

15:37

tell us that we will be loved unconditionally.

15:42

We just unfortunately didn't have that conversation when I

15:44

was younger. We never really talked about gay people.

15:47

The only things I ever heard about gay people

15:49

were obviously in the majority, the insults

15:51

and the, and the put downs in the locker room

15:53

and the hallways. Um, had

15:58

we just talked about it? I would

16:00

have never had to live with all of that fear.

16:03

I would have never had to run away from home. And

16:06

it wasn't until I got to come back home

16:09

that my mom told me that she

16:11

would love me unconditionally no matter who I was. You

16:16

sold her short. Yeah. You

16:19

didn't think she had it in her. Or

16:21

maybe you were just so afraid that

16:23

she didn't have it in her. Probably

16:25

both. Mm-hmm. My

16:29

mom is such an incredible

16:32

woman. She's loud

16:34

and she's funny and she's the life of

16:36

the party. And she was

16:38

like that mom at sporting events. She always

16:40

brought a cooler for

16:43

everybody and like a candy bag. And

16:46

she was everyone's biggest cheerleader. And the thing

16:48

about being her son was like, how do

16:50

you break this woman's heart? The

16:53

woman that everybody loves. And

16:56

you were so sure that it would break her

16:58

heart. So sure. But

17:01

you weren't right. Because you just weren't gay

17:03

in Northern Michigan. Right,

17:05

right. And. What would it

17:07

have been comparable to? Like for

17:09

people who are younger listening to this who are

17:11

like, what is he talking about? Like, you

17:14

know, so much has changed in the last 17

17:16

years since this moment. I

17:19

don't, like just, it

17:21

was such a taboo. Mm-hmm.

17:25

And it was synonymous

17:27

with being filthy and

17:30

shameful. And

17:34

that was the thing that I was so embarrassed

17:36

of was that I

17:40

would now be seen as something disgusting

17:44

and dirty. Pairing

17:47

that with someone like my mom, I

17:50

would play these scenarios around

17:52

my head. Like

17:56

mom going back into the hockey arena or

17:58

the football field. and her

18:01

friends not looking at her, not talking at

18:03

her, her son's a faggot, can you believe

18:05

it, whispering to one another, shaming

18:07

her for something that they

18:09

would have said was her fault, which

18:11

is something that my grandma and

18:14

I talked about when I came out to my grandma. I

18:21

loved my grandma. I adored

18:23

my grandma. And

18:27

just these things that, you know,

18:30

the people that we love say, I

18:33

had finally worked up the courage to come out to grandma. Everyone

18:35

told me not to tell grandma. She was the last person. Everyone

18:38

said, don't tell grandma, it'll kill her, which

18:40

is not something that I needed to hear. But

18:43

I loved her so much, and I felt like I wanted her

18:45

to know this thing about me, which, you

18:47

know, sidebar, then it felt like you

18:50

had to go on an apology tour, coming out

18:52

to her, right? Come out to everyone, apologize, or

18:54

explain who you are, validate your humanity, which is

18:57

so bogus. Nobody needs to come out to anybody if they

18:59

don't want to. But I finally worked up

19:01

the courage to tell her, I think it was

19:03

Thanksgiving, and we made our

19:05

way outside. We sat in the front seat of her car,

19:08

and I couldn't even find the words. I

19:11

just said, grandma, I, and broke down in

19:13

tears. And

19:15

she reached over and grabbed my hand

19:18

with all of her big, chunky, gold rings digging

19:21

into my knuckles. Squeezed

19:23

me so tight and said, I know Chasser's,

19:25

that was my nickname. And

19:28

she said, I love you just the same. And

19:34

then there were lots of tears, and me

19:37

trying to qualify

19:39

this existence, and maybe a

19:41

mistake I had made, or something was off about me, or...

19:47

My grandma, God love her, said, you

19:49

know, it's your mother's fault. Ah!

19:52

She said, because I have two older

19:54

brothers, and she said, you

19:57

know, when your mom was pregnant with you, she

19:59

kept worrying that... that she was gonna have another

20:01

boy. And I said, Sherry, if you keep worrying

20:03

so much, that baby's gonna come out half boy,

20:05

half girl. Oh my God,

20:07

my mouth is wide open right now. It's

20:10

like, I don't know if that was very helpful,

20:12

but I think that was her way of finding

20:14

humor in it. That

20:17

you're just, you know, you're just

20:19

who you are. And it's because your

20:21

mom worried so much. Obviously

20:24

it wasn't the easiest thing to hear and I

20:26

know grandma was trying to find humor. But

20:29

that's just kind of where people's heads were

20:31

then. None of us had the language for

20:33

this to navigate this. Coming

20:37

up next, Chasten talks about balancing his

20:39

desire to protect his piece with

20:42

his goal of bridging differences through

20:44

storytelling. We'll be right back with

20:46

Kelly Corrigan wonders. Welcome back

20:48

to Kelly Corrigan wonders. I'm

21:02

Kelly Corrigan. Major funding for this series

21:04

has been provided by the Arthur Vining

21:06

Davis Foundations, Investing in Our

21:09

Common Future. Before we

21:11

return to my interview with Chasten Buttigieg, I

21:13

wanna welcome you to reach out anytime with

21:15

feedback or questions or ideas. Our

21:18

email address is hello at kellycorrigan.com.

21:22

I also wanna mention that every Wednesday

21:24

we send out our top takeaways from

21:26

the week to many thousands of listeners.

21:28

And if you'd like to be one

21:30

of them, we're happy to add you.

21:32

Send an email to hello at kellycorrigan.com.

21:35

Okay, let's jump back to my conversation

21:37

with teacher, author, advocate, Chasten

21:39

Buttigieg. Was there anyone whose reaction

21:42

just tortured you? Oh

21:50

yeah, good friend from high school called

21:52

them and again

21:55

on the apology tour, just

21:58

going through everybody in the phone book. So

22:01

exhausting for a young person. Yeah.

22:05

And I

22:08

just said, I want you to know this about me. I

22:10

am gay

22:12

and I will never forget her saying,

22:15

I love you, but that's not what God wants for you.

22:20

That was the last time we spoke. And

22:23

those words still sting to this day because

22:25

you experienced this when you're touring the country

22:27

and you're sitting down with young people who

22:29

hear the

22:31

exact same thing. I

22:34

love you, but it's

22:37

a sin. I love you, but it's not

22:39

what God wants for you. I

22:42

love you, but I don't support that lifestyle is

22:45

saying, I love you, but

22:47

you're not an equal. Yeah. And

22:49

it's not really, I mean, it doesn't really comport with

22:51

my definition of love. Oh, absolutely

22:53

not. I mean, that's not. I

22:56

got that from quite a few people. Mm-hmm. And

22:59

how do you process that? Like how, I'm thinking

23:01

about your individual story and

23:04

then I'm thinking about the country, you

23:06

know, sort of

23:08

writ large this, I mean, it's

23:11

settled law, gay marriage. Yeah. But

23:15

it's not settled culture. And I wonder what

23:18

you would want people to understand. Like

23:22

what is, what would you say if you could

23:24

have the pulpit and

23:26

explain to people who feel that you

23:29

are wrong, that

23:31

to be gay is to be wrong? What

23:34

would you say? How would you persuade them? What have you learned

23:36

in terms of all your advocacy work that

23:42

has worked in terms of communication and

23:44

stepping through

23:46

the information and emotions with

23:48

people such

23:51

that they might evolve in their thinking? I

23:57

always rely on storytelling when

23:59

I share it. my mother's story, our family's

24:01

story, that all of this

24:03

love is just like your love. You

24:06

know, a loving son, a grandson, a

24:08

father, a very active

24:10

community member who wants

24:12

many of the same things that sometimes I think

24:14

people on the furthest

24:16

end of the opposite political spectrum want. Safe

24:20

community for my kid, better

24:22

playgrounds, pay our teachers

24:24

more, access to affordable

24:26

healthcare. You know, all I

24:28

wanna do is sit and drink my coffee and

24:30

watch my kids run around the playground and laugh

24:32

too. I guess in this hypothetical,

24:34

the first part of me in the hypothetical wouldn't even go

24:37

to the pulpit because I'm trying to protect my peace. Really?

24:42

That sometimes, yeah, I think if

24:44

someone were to say, explain why you're not wrong,

24:46

I would say, no, thank you, I have other things to do

24:48

today. But in the hypothetical

24:51

sense of trying to move the needle, I always tell

24:53

people to not pick up the, I know sometimes you

24:55

wanna beat people over the head with a two by

24:57

four, but I

24:59

like to lay the two by four down and build a bridge. And

25:02

hopefully, slowly, we get people to the right side

25:04

of history. And the way I do that work

25:06

is by being a good husband, being

25:09

a good dad, being a good teacher. And

25:12

in many ways, I think the things that

25:14

our family wants are the same things that all

25:16

the other families want. And I think

25:18

we can find common connection in that wanting

25:20

to be accepted and loved for

25:23

who we are. But

25:25

I also try to square these conversations with

25:27

the fact that public opinion's

25:29

there now. The majority of

25:31

Americans support LGBTQ equality, the majority of Americans

25:34

support marriage equality, which was not the case

25:36

growing up. I

25:38

don't think I would have believed you had you said

25:40

on your 35th birthday, your three-year-olds

25:42

will be wreaking havoc in your kitchen,

25:45

right? And you'll be telling

25:47

your husband to help clean up the mess on

25:49

the floor because you have to record a podcast

25:51

upstairs in the home that you shared together,

25:53

right? Just, I don't

25:56

think I would have believed you that all of those dreams would

25:58

have come true so fast. Well,

28:00

that goes to a principle

28:03

that has come up

28:05

for four years on this podcast, which

28:08

is proximity with

28:10

cheers to Brian Stevenson for putting the right

28:12

word on it so long

28:14

ago. But you're

28:16

interacting face-to-face with people. And

28:18

when you're interacting face-to-face with people, all kinds

28:20

of things happen. It's like, oh, wow, look,

28:24

we have the same shoes on. Oh, you were,

28:26

you like pickleball? I like pickleball. I got a

28:28

bad back. You're two. You

28:31

just finished watching Succession? Us, too. All

28:33

of a sudden, there's just this potential

28:36

for casual overlaps

28:39

and intersections that

28:41

start to minimize this

28:44

one particular way where you're different, which

28:47

isn't really that big a deal. I mean, it's

28:49

kind of like if we divided

28:51

the world between people

28:54

who like baths and people who

28:56

like showers. You

28:58

know what I mean? It's just like at the end

29:00

of the day, it's not so different. I

29:03

always think about what some of

29:05

these people would say if they came to our house.

29:07

Some of the loudest voices on the right who

29:10

have been attacking my kids since the day they were born.

29:13

Really? Who had nothing but

29:15

vitriol to spew when my

29:18

husband was on paternity leave, especially

29:21

when our son was connected to a ventilator

29:23

in a children's hospital at two months

29:25

old, five pounds. The

29:28

theater of it online. If

29:32

you were to come to my house this

29:34

morning and see what our morning routine is

29:36

like here, your kid jumping in your

29:38

bed at three o'clock in the morning, elbowing

29:40

you to get out of bed at

29:42

5.30 in the morning, bleary

29:45

eye tried to make a cup of coffee,

29:48

make some pancakes and some scrambled eggs. It's

29:52

muggy here today, so we're getting

29:54

the water table out very early. Singing

29:58

songs as we run around. around with

30:00

the dog, or just a family doing

30:02

things that every other family's

30:04

doing, trying to muster that energy

30:07

to make it to 10 a.m. or your second cup

30:09

of coffee and

30:11

do your best and do right by

30:13

your kids. And

30:15

sometimes I think, you know, just

30:17

put Twitter down for a second and come

30:20

over. And I understand that we

30:22

disagree on many other issues, but come over

30:24

and I'll pour you a cup of coffee.

30:27

And you can see that we're doing many

30:29

of the same things that you're doing and that we want

30:31

many of the same things that you want. And

30:34

that this house is so full

30:36

of love that I'm almost jealous of it

30:39

to think of, to

30:41

think of some of the things that I could have had

30:43

as a kid that we just didn't have the language or

30:45

the understanding. These

30:49

kids are so loved and

30:52

safe. I think we could find

30:54

a lot more common ground if we just got off Twitter and

30:57

sat down with one another and talked about our kids.

31:00

That's why I like being out of Washington and

31:03

being back in Northern Michigan. We live

31:05

in a pretty purple county. This county,

31:07

I don't believe it's gone blue, but

31:09

it's pretty close. And we're

31:11

situated between many other homes with Biden

31:14

flag, Trump flag, Biden flag, Trump flag.

31:16

It's your quintessential purple district. And when

31:19

our kids were born, I tell the

31:22

story everywhere I go about finding common ground

31:24

with our neighbors and how we can overcome

31:26

our differences. When our kids

31:28

were born, we brought

31:30

them here to Northern Michigan for a

31:32

couple of months. And a

31:35

journalist or a photographer, I

31:37

don't know if you could call them a journalist, showed

31:39

up at one of our neighbor's houses. And

31:42

the photographer had expressed that the

31:44

Buddha judges just adopted two kids

31:48

and they could be the first person to get a picture

31:50

of them. And from what

31:52

I understand, because this was told to me secondhand, because

31:54

this neighbor knows a family member,

31:57

it's a small town, she told a

31:59

photographer where. he could shove it

32:01

and to get off her front

32:04

porch. I believe we're

32:06

on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but

32:08

they went to find my family

32:11

member and tell them what had happened and to

32:14

let them know that they were looking out for us because

32:17

they knew that protecting those kids was the most important

32:19

thing to us. That

32:21

we can put politics aside and

32:24

recognize that sometimes a

32:26

family just wants to be a family and they can

32:28

be left alone. That's

32:31

a neighbor looking out for a neighbor. I

32:33

don't know some of my other neighbors politics. We

32:35

don't talk about politics. We swap blueberries

32:37

and cherries and we

32:40

have some pretty good fishing

32:42

near our house. So we swap bluegill

32:45

fillets. It's the most

32:47

lovely thing. We

32:49

don't talk politics. We just share the harvest.

32:51

Neighbor up. We're just neighbors.

32:55

Yeah. It's interesting. Maybe

32:57

a tactic of rupture and repair,

32:59

maybe a repair concept that is

33:02

transferable is

33:05

to put children in the center

33:07

of the frame for a second.

33:09

It's so easy, I feel, when

33:12

we're thinking about American children to

33:16

find our areas of

33:18

utter passionate agreement.

33:21

And then somehow we get

33:23

less tolerant as people become older. But

33:27

there is something clarifying

33:30

about looking at the country through the lens

33:32

of how hard or easy it

33:34

is to grow up here

33:36

and flourish. There's

33:39

something about that that might draw

33:41

us together for a minute as

33:44

we look at all the ways that we're split

33:47

apart. I hope so.

33:50

I hope that caring for and defending American

33:52

children sort of becomes the next infrastructure. Like

33:54

we all said, infrastructure was the big bipartisan

33:57

issue. I hope

33:59

it can become. So we

34:01

all want our teachers to be paid

34:03

well. We all want quality, affordable, early

34:05

childhood education. Every

34:07

parent deserves paid parental leave. And

34:10

I hope we can all get on that same page.

34:13

So let's give parents the help they need and teachers

34:15

the help they need. And why

34:17

shouldn't America be leading the world

34:19

in public education? Maybe

34:21

we can get there. I'm hopeful because you're

34:23

right. When we sit down and we just talk about our kids

34:26

and our hopes for our kids. I mean,

34:28

every parent has been to the playground where you're trying

34:30

to figure out what to talk to the other parent

34:32

about, right? After you've gone beyond like

34:34

names and where you bought their shoes and, you

34:38

know, we all have these

34:41

shared experiences and parenting one way or

34:43

the other. And most of them come,

34:45

you know, center around needing

34:47

help that we all lean on

34:50

our support systems and our teachers. How

34:53

well do you feel like you could articulate the

34:57

anti LGBTQ position?

35:03

Ha ha. Ha ha. I

35:06

don't, you know, I honestly

35:08

don't know what it is. So

35:11

when I'm talking to folks about it around the country,

35:13

I just keep reminding them that it's theater. It's

35:17

Anita Bryant all over again. They're coming for our

35:19

kids, you know, be fearful of the

35:21

gays. Cause they just need

35:23

a boogeyman. Mm hmm. And

35:26

I try to center my political action

35:28

and my public work around what I'm

35:30

for and my hopes

35:32

and my dreams for this country, what we're building,

35:35

not what we're against. And

35:38

so much of the anti

35:40

LGBTQ movement right now

35:43

is just centered on obviously

35:45

lies and fear. Mm

35:49

hmm. I mean, don't say gay

35:51

in Florida was, you know, such

35:54

a waste of time that

35:57

somehow, you know, a child could be hurt by a

35:59

teacher just. just acknowledging that they're, you know,

36:02

I could say, oh, my husband and I took the kids to

36:04

the zoo this weekend. What did you do? We're

36:07

pulling books off the shelf. I mean, it's

36:10

such a well-coordinated

36:12

and funded campaign because

36:14

it works for their base. But

36:17

as we've seen, the majority of

36:19

Americans reject it. And I

36:22

just think so much of it is bad theater.

36:24

I mean, I went to theater school and so,

36:28

it's just shameful, you know. The whole point

36:30

of politics is that we elect people to

36:32

go to those big white buildings in Washington

36:34

to make our lives better and safer, right?

36:37

And the whole point of electing someone has said,

36:39

you don't have to do it, right? But

36:43

now we're also dialed in on politics because

36:46

Washington has just become a show. It's like a

36:48

content farm. Like what wild thing did this person

36:50

say this day? You know, and who did they

36:52

insult? And congressional hearings

36:54

become, you know,

36:56

late night TV fodder. And

36:58

unfortunately- Yeah, it's definitely reality TV at

37:00

its worst. Yeah, unfortunately one of the

37:02

big scapegoats right now

37:05

is the LGBTQ community, especially young vulnerable

37:07

trans kids. I mean, some

37:10

of these states have spent millions upon

37:13

millions of dollars to

37:15

prevent one kid, one

37:18

kid who petitioned the state athletic association

37:20

to play on a team. That's

37:23

theater. Wonder

37:25

what it is. I just keep wondering, what

37:28

is it? What is underneath all that? Is

37:30

it that you

37:32

think that if there's

37:34

one, there's gonna be a thousand? Like, is

37:36

it a slippery slope thing? Or

37:38

is it my kid's

37:41

a swimmer and if you put

37:43

that kid in the pool, my kid's gonna lose?

37:45

Like, is it a scarcity

37:48

argument? So it's a slippery slope is

37:50

one possibility, scarcity is another, which

37:52

is the pie is not big enough already.

37:54

And there's just no way that X

37:57

kind of person can have

37:59

it. in on this stuff. I mean, fill

38:01

in the blank. It could be immigrant, it could be gay person,

38:04

it could be, da da da. Well,

38:06

think about the stories we were just talking

38:08

about with young Chasten

38:11

and young parents. We just

38:13

didn't know. Chasters. Yeah. You

38:16

know, we can grow and learn

38:18

and evolve, become better

38:20

people, or we

38:23

can choose not to. We

38:25

can put our blinders on and say, I don't want to. And

38:27

I think that's what we experience

38:29

right now. Me too movement,

38:31

Black rights movement, right? Black

38:34

Lives Matter. People put on their

38:36

blinders and say, I don't want to read that book. I

38:38

don't want to learn about that person's struggle. I'm comfortable

38:40

where I'm at. Yeah, maybe

38:43

it's like an anti-change feeling. Like, I

38:45

don't want to be changed. I

38:48

know where my lines are. I

38:51

know how I perceive the world to be. And

38:53

I'm not open to start redrawing

38:55

everything. It's too endless.

38:57

I mean, we could be, you

39:01

know, like every now and then you hear the

39:03

crazy talk show guy be like, what are you

39:05

gonna let people marry dogs?

39:09

And you're like, oh, so that's your fear is that it's

39:11

just gonna, we're never gonna

39:13

close up the circle. We're never gonna say,

39:15

this is it. This is how it is.

39:17

This is the world. These are the people

39:19

in it. It's done. We understand it. And

39:22

I think many gay people, many queer people

39:24

have had that conversation with someone where they

39:26

say, well, I love you, but

39:28

I think you're spot

39:30

on. I think some people just don't want

39:32

to recognize that maybe the

39:34

world always has been different around them.

39:38

Right. And it's slowly changing and

39:42

they're no longer in the norm. But

39:45

that's the thing. I don't want to replace the norm. I

39:47

just want to keep my kids safe. Right.

39:50

When I'm in the hospital, I want to make sure that my husband

39:52

can come sit by my bedside or sit at

39:54

our kids' bedside. I want to keep

39:57

my family safe. And I just want to be

39:59

a good member of the- community and do

40:01

my job, I'm not looking to change anything.

40:04

Right, I'm not looking to sell anybody. Tell

40:07

me a great story of repair in your

40:09

personal life, where you

40:11

thought something would never get glued back together

40:13

and somehow I did. You

40:16

know, I think the journey with my parents is

40:18

one that means so much to me. My

40:21

dad used to take me on these really

40:24

incredible fishing trips when I was young. We would

40:26

pack up the car and drive up to the UP and

40:30

camp out in the middle of the

40:32

Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And

40:35

no electricity, no running water, no Wi-Fi,

40:37

just camping under the stars. You could

40:39

hear the wolves howling at night

40:41

and just watch

40:43

the stars from your sleeping bag. And just incredible

40:46

trips. And I was always so fearful that I

40:48

would lose this magic with my father. And

40:52

just two weeks ago, I had

40:55

to drop my kids off at my parents' house

40:57

because I needed to head to the airport. And

41:01

I got really

41:03

emotional watching them

41:06

in the backyard. My dad has this

41:08

incredible strawberry patch. And

41:11

he was out there running around with my

41:13

kids barefoot in the

41:15

strawberry patch. And they were picking berries and eating

41:23

strawberries with their grandpa. And

41:26

I never thought that I would see that dream come true. To

41:31

be so loved,

41:36

to know that your parents love you, that they're

41:38

proud of you, and to watch them love their

41:40

grandkids. Just

41:42

to be entwined, happily

41:44

entwined. Didn't

41:47

have to sever everything. Yeah.

41:51

My parents chose love. They

41:54

chose love over fear and the opinions

41:56

of other people and prejudice, that's what

41:58

all of that is said. experience for

42:00

it in their own, as you said,

42:03

they were really well known and beloved

42:05

in your community. What

42:07

was their process like? I

42:10

think it was tough for them in

42:13

some regard because the thing that I

42:15

had going for me was that I left. I

42:18

did community college for two years and then I left. My

42:21

parents were here. My parents are in the same house

42:23

they bought when they were 18 years

42:25

old, freshly married out of high

42:28

school. They've been here and they're

42:30

staying here. I

42:32

know they've had some falling outs with some friends,

42:35

religious community, but they have

42:38

also found other friends in

42:40

different religious communities. I

42:43

never thought my mom would hold my hand

42:46

and walk down front street of Traverse City,

42:48

Michigan in the up north pride march

42:51

wearing a shirt that said proud mom. My

42:55

mom knows exactly who she is and

42:58

if anyone has something else

43:00

to say, she's going to say

43:02

something right back. She loves her kid. She

43:04

loves her grandkids. She knows what she

43:06

believes in. But in order to get

43:08

to that place, we all had to grow. We

43:12

had to have the hard conversations and

43:14

sometimes they asked the right questions and

43:16

sometimes they asked the wrong questions or

43:19

embarrassing questions, but we had the talks

43:22

and we kept coming to the table in good faith

43:24

because we wanted to make this work. I

43:27

didn't want to lose my parents and they didn't want

43:29

to lose their kid. That's really to

43:31

be underlined in terms of repairs. You got

43:33

to keep coming to the table in good

43:35

faith. And also you have

43:37

to fundamentally believe in the potential of people

43:39

to grow. And

43:42

that's what maybe like

43:44

a teenager just cannot

43:46

believe that people who are as old

43:49

as your parents were in your eyes at

43:51

that time could do it. Could

43:56

grow into a new worldview. And

43:58

of course we can. the first people can grow.

44:01

Like that's a sort

44:04

of core worldview for repair, is

44:09

that growth is always possible. Absolutely.

44:12

Because if you don't believe that, you won't keep coming to the table in good

44:15

faith. Yeah. And nothing

44:17

happens if you're not at the table. I

44:19

think many of us have to continuously

44:22

weigh whether it's worth coming back to the

44:24

table and eventually

44:26

sometimes with some people, recognize

44:30

it's not worth coming back. But

44:32

there have been many relationships

44:34

repaired and strengthened because

44:37

we kept coming back to the table. Did

44:41

anybody ever come and apologize to you? Yeah,

44:44

yeah, actually about two years ago, moving

44:47

back to Northern Michigan has allowed me to

44:49

obviously see friends more often and

44:51

folks that you might have lost touch

44:53

with along the way. And

44:55

I was sitting on a dock with a friend I went to

44:57

high school with. And

44:59

we hadn't really talked much in the last 15

45:02

years. Just

45:04

catching up on one of those kids and families and what

45:06

it's like to be living in

45:08

Northern Michigan again. And they

45:10

said, I just, I want

45:12

to apologize. I had

45:15

no idea what you were going

45:17

through. And I wish I would have

45:19

known, I wish I could have done something to help, which

45:23

meant a lot. I

45:25

think that delayed apology is one of

45:27

the most beautiful notes

45:30

in the human orchestra. Just

45:32

love that the idea

45:34

that somebody's sitting with something and holding

45:37

it and is not gonna let the

45:39

moment pass twice. Yeah.

45:42

I mean, I love repair. I think repair is like prettiest

45:44

flower in the bunch. I

45:47

think it was beautiful that you

45:49

could have lived your entire life holding

45:51

onto that. Yeah. Well,

45:54

now we're sitting on the stock. Now

45:56

we're rekindling a friendship. Now we're talking

45:58

again. So why bring up the pack?

46:00

but there's even

46:03

the smallest opportunity to

46:05

put a little superglue on a

46:08

tiny little crack. Do it. Yeah.

46:13

What do you love about your husband? Now,

46:15

now that you've been married for a little

46:17

while and you have kids and you've had

46:19

to suffer through all that craziness. How

46:22

dedicated he is. I'm so grateful. That's

46:26

not like the cheesy way. It's

46:29

just he has a very hard

46:31

job and being a

46:33

dad is harder, right? And he

46:36

switches hats very well. And

46:40

I really, really appreciate having a dedicated

46:42

partner like that who

46:44

recognizes that, you know, being

46:46

in my position isn't always easy. All

46:49

of the work shouldn't fall to another parent. But

46:52

also just dedicated in love that before

46:56

I met Peter, you know, I had

46:58

so many bad relationships and never

47:00

thought I was going to find true love and

47:03

falling in love with him has been such a journey and

47:05

to have someone hold you up every

47:07

day, try to make it

47:10

a little better every day, who recognizes

47:12

even when I don't that I'm hurting

47:14

or something is off. Sort

47:17

of like we were saying, you know, finding little

47:19

ways to help. And

47:21

love is beautiful. I love

47:24

love, but partnership is

47:27

beautiful too. Having someone there to pick you

47:29

up when you need it and celebrate

47:32

you even when you might not, that's

47:35

been a really special gift. Yeah,

47:37

and all that partnership, I sort of feel

47:39

like sets the stage for the love part.

47:42

It's kind of hard to feel

47:44

all the lovey love feelings when

47:47

you're sort of pissed at some basic

47:49

daily level. You know, it's like,

47:51

God, I know you've been Mr. Big Jab,

47:53

like, whatever, but here I am and

47:55

these are our people and this is, in the

47:57

end, this will matter more to

47:59

you. chop, chop, show up, I need you.

48:03

And when they do, I mean, I'm

48:05

also married to a really nice guy

48:07

who's devoted in ways that mean a

48:09

lot to me. And

48:12

for sure, he looks

48:14

cuter to me on days when

48:16

he's been right

48:19

there with Georgia or Claire during some

48:21

moment of strife and he's like taking,

48:23

being the frontline worker on something emotional

48:26

and hard. And

48:28

I think, I'm looking at him

48:30

over dinner and thinking, you're really cute. And

48:33

I don't think I could feel that way if

48:36

he'd been pissing me off all day or

48:38

like left all the hard stuff to me. Oh,

48:40

absolutely. Yeah. It's really fun

48:42

to watch him being a dad. Oh

48:44

yeah, that's the best. And three is,

48:46

they're three? They turned three

48:48

this summer, yeah. Three's

48:50

great. Four was my favorite. Four's

48:52

just like the stuff they

48:54

say and the connections they make. And I

48:57

just got such a kick out of it. I was

48:59

writing in my journal every day when they were four,

49:02

just trying to capture it because it felt so explosive

49:04

to me. Their growth and the

49:06

kinds of new layers of

49:08

understanding that they had about the world. It

49:11

just was so wild. It was a year of

49:13

wonder, I felt. They're

49:15

so funny. You have that to look forward to. But you

49:17

have two at the same time. That feels hard to me.

49:20

It can be. You

49:23

know, when they're, yeah, it's

49:26

hard when they're like, our

49:28

daughter is getting into our bed at three o'clock

49:30

every morning. And she is like a fish out

49:32

of water. She's like flopping all

49:35

over the place. I get like elbowed and kicked and

49:37

she pushes me right to the edge of the bed.

49:40

And then if I try to wiggle over it, she'll

49:43

be like, you're in my space. And

49:45

I'm like, Emma. How

49:48

can you not laugh at that? I'm

49:50

so tired. Maybe I got

49:53

like three hours of sleep last night. It was not

49:55

great, but they're so funny.

49:57

They're so funny. The things they say, the

50:00

creative play. that's coming out right now, the little

50:03

adventures they take us on, they turn the house

50:05

into a museum. Fantastic. And they

50:07

take us around the museum and

50:10

they show us the couch. Our

50:12

kids used to turn our house into a hotel and

50:15

they would give us PowerPoint slides to

50:17

welcome us to the hotel and then they'd put

50:20

like numbers on the doors. Oh my gosh. And

50:22

they had learned all the words like the sweet,

50:24

the honeymoon sweat. Right. Yes.

50:27

And we were at bed and

50:29

breakfast and they put on aprons

50:31

and it was phenomenal. I'm

50:34

glad you got your dream. I'm so happy

50:36

to talk to you and to

50:39

revel in the repair

50:42

that your whole life represents. Thank

50:44

you. I'm so grateful. I'm

50:47

so grateful to be here. Here

50:49

are my takeaways from

50:52

my conversation with

50:57

Chasten Buttigieg. Number one, the

51:00

fundamental worldview required for

51:02

repair is that growth is

51:05

always possible. Number

51:07

two, if we're

51:09

really striving to reunite,

51:12

we have to keep coming to the table in

51:15

good faith. Number three,

51:17

it can be awfully helpful to put

51:19

children in the center of the frame.

51:23

Number four, a delayed

51:25

apology is one of the most

51:27

beautiful notes in the human

51:29

orchestra. Number five,

51:31

if there's even the smallest opportunity to

51:33

put a little superglue on the tiniest

51:36

of ruptures, do it. Number

51:39

six, all families want the same thing,

51:42

to be loved and accepted for who

51:44

they are. Thank you,

51:46

Chasten Buttigieg, for being so open and

51:49

for sharing this story with us and

51:51

for your ongoing advocacy work. Thank you

51:53

to the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations for

51:55

being such enthusiastic and generous supporters of

51:57

our Rupture and Repair series. For

51:59

all the- great work they do in the world for years

52:01

and years now. Thanks also

52:03

to the team at Kelly Corrigan Wonders,

52:06

our technical producer Dean Kateri, our executive

52:08

producer Tammy Steadman, as well as Rachel

52:10

Hicks and Charlie Upchurch who help us

52:12

stay connected. Finally, thanks to you

52:14

all for listening. We'll be back on Friday with

52:16

another go-to and on Sunday with a new thanks

52:18

for being here. In the meantime, I'll

52:21

see you on Instagram at Kelly Corrigan. From

52:34

PRX.