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all states or situations. If

1:10

there's one thing most of

1:12

us remember from our teenage

1:15

years, it is how very,

1:17

very interested we were in

1:19

the peers we found attractive.

1:21

It could take many forms. Crushes,

1:24

dating, hookups, but for a long

1:26

time it seemed evident that all

1:29

of this madness around our dawning

1:31

interest in romance was driven by

1:33

new searches of hormones that essentially

1:36

could not be ignored. So what

1:38

exactly has changed between then and

1:40

the young adult lives of Gen

1:42

Zee? From K-E-R-A in Dallas, this is

1:44

think. I'm Chris Boyd. When different generations

1:47

were polled in 2023, 78% of

1:49

baby boomers and 76% of Gen

1:51

X adults recalled having been in

1:53

a romantic relationship at some point

1:56

in their teens, but only 56%

1:58

of Gen Z response the

2:00

same. And my guest has followed

2:02

that thread to discover that the

2:04

people born between roughly 1997 and

2:07

2012 really do seem to have

2:09

collectively less experience with relationships than

2:11

their parents and grandparents at the

2:13

same ages. One big question is

2:15

why the other is whether this

2:17

is good or bad or just

2:20

different from the experiences of older

2:22

Americans. Faith Hill is a staff

2:24

writer at the Atlantic and author

2:26

of the article there, teens are

2:28

foregoing a classic rite of passage.

2:30

Faith, welcome back to Think. Hi,

2:33

thanks so much for having me.

2:35

You talked with a journalist who

2:37

moonlights as a college professor and

2:39

apparently has also taken on like

2:41

an unofficial role as an advocate

2:43

for dating. Why are her students

2:46

so down on the idea of

2:48

romance? Yeah, it was kind of

2:50

a funny anecdote. I did talk

2:52

to this journalist who's teaching this

2:54

course about love and and she

2:56

was also surprised to find that

2:59

her students you know they had

3:01

sort of some of them said

3:03

love was an idea from the

3:05

media they were very kind of

3:07

guarded against like cliches about romance

3:09

and and sort of were not

3:12

buying into it and and of

3:14

course she thought some of that

3:16

was valid but she also ended

3:18

up finding over the course of

3:20

teaching that class that it felt

3:22

a little bit sad like these

3:25

students really sort of hadn't had

3:27

the romantic experience to understand that

3:29

give and take in a relationship

3:31

and to know that like those

3:33

cliches really come from somewhere it

3:35

can be so powerful. Yeah we

3:38

worry so much about young people

3:40

being exposed to false information in

3:42

the media it's fascinating that some

3:44

of them have become convinced that

3:46

media depictions of love can't possibly

3:48

be as amazing as what they

3:51

see on screen. Right.

3:53

I mean, I think that it

3:55

is kind of the, it's the

3:57

sort of thing that you only

3:59

fully understand. if you've had that

4:02

experience and as you're saying, you

4:04

know, I found that same statistic

4:06

and found it so striking and

4:08

I think that it is, there's

4:10

some kind of knowledge that you

4:13

can't quite have if you haven't

4:15

been in a relationship and there

4:17

is a real difference in the

4:19

generations between that experience. It would

4:22

be one thing if this attitude

4:24

came from people who were like

4:26

jaded by a string of relationships

4:28

gone sour, but this is a

4:30

generation of people who are less

4:33

likely to have dated seriously at

4:35

all than Gen X or Boomers

4:37

before them. That's right. I mean,

4:39

definitely part of the question is

4:41

what it means that teens and

4:44

young adults are... saying they've had

4:46

fewer romantic relationships and it is

4:48

possible that there's sort of a

4:50

change in the label rather than

4:52

the actual behavior. There are surveys

4:55

suggesting that situations or these undefined

4:57

relationships are very common in Gen

4:59

Z. And in other generations too,

5:01

but especially Gen Z, I wanted

5:03

to take seriously the idea that

5:06

maybe people just aren't saying that

5:08

they've been in a relationship, but

5:10

they've had sort of the experience

5:12

that people had in other relations

5:14

in other generations and might have

5:17

just said they were in a

5:19

relationship. But yeah, the more I

5:21

looked into this, the more I

5:23

did feel like it wasn't just

5:25

a difference in kind of the

5:28

label that there were real qualitative

5:30

differences in the sort of romantic

5:32

experiences that young people are are

5:34

having or how often they're having

5:36

it. And it certainly doesn't mean

5:39

that they're not experiencing. crushes and

5:41

flirting and those raging hormones that

5:43

you mentioned, I think they absolutely

5:45

are, but the kind of romantic

5:47

experiences they're having are often very

5:50

ambiguous and there's sort of more

5:52

anxiety around defining it and really

5:54

talking about what it means. So

5:56

the label can be problematic for

5:58

people even if they really like

6:01

somebody. Yes, that's right. I think,

6:03

you know, there's surveys, there's one

6:05

2023 survey of Gen Z. Dators

6:07

where 90% of the participants said

6:09

they wanted to find love, but

6:12

56% said that fear of rejection

6:14

had kept them from pursuing a

6:16

potential relationship, and 57% said they

6:18

had stopped themselves from sharing their

6:20

feelings with someone because they worried

6:23

it would be a turn off.

6:25

So there's this kind of nervousness,

6:27

and and that can lead to

6:29

sort of avoiding the conversations about,

6:31

you know, what it is you're

6:34

doing with someone if you're flirting

6:36

with them or in some kind

6:38

of romantic relationship with them. And

6:40

it's not always bad. I mean,

6:42

for some people that sort of

6:45

ambiguity can be freeing, but I

6:47

think it can also be confusing

6:49

and yes that journalist I talked

6:51

to Lisa Phillips had talked to

6:53

hundreds of young people and their

6:56

parents about dating these days and

6:58

she told me that a lot

7:00

of young people are kind of

7:02

beating themselves up because they feel

7:04

like in these kind of undefined

7:07

situations they're not supposed to be

7:09

feeling something they're not supposed to

7:11

be taking it so seriously and

7:13

then you know, despite themselves, they,

7:15

they do end up feeling that

7:18

and, and they kind of think,

7:20

like, I wasn't, I wasn't supposed

7:22

to feel this, it was just

7:24

a situation, she even heard all

7:26

these terms from teens she talked

7:29

to, like, I got caught or

7:31

I caught feelings, you know, that

7:33

sort of... Like, it's a disease.

7:35

Yes, like a disease, exactly. Just

7:37

so that all the generations listening

7:40

around the same page, Faith, you

7:42

mentioned this... term situationships. What is

7:44

that for us old? Well classically

7:46

it's kind of defined as romantic

7:48

relationship of relationship that's romantic in

7:51

some way but isn't defined so

7:53

you haven't had the official conversation

7:55

where you know you call it

7:57

a relationship or you call each

7:59

other partners. But it does seem

8:02

like some of the relationships going

8:04

on that are that are pretty

8:06

common among young people today might

8:08

not even qualify for that that

8:10

kind of classic situation ship definition.

8:13

So Phillips found that a lot

8:15

of the kind of romantic activity

8:17

among young people was sort of

8:19

like people were talking, that's kind

8:21

of a phrase that's used, you

8:24

know, we're talking. But it was

8:26

sort of circling around, like, you

8:28

know, conversations about what was happening.

8:30

So it wasn't even necessarily like

8:33

a consistently casual relationship. It was

8:35

sometimes even more. ambiguous than that

8:37

and and sometimes it was sexual

8:39

and sometimes it wasn't even sometimes

8:41

it was just a lot of

8:44

phone activity you know there's like

8:46

a lot of texting and online

8:48

activity that is now for young

8:50

people a big part of the

8:52

romantic experience as well. I wonder

8:55

if somehow this generation of young

8:57

people now is less possessive than

8:59

the ones that came before. I

9:01

mean this idea of you know

9:03

we're talking and you know implies

9:06

that you're welcome to talk to

9:08

whoever you want you know back

9:10

in the 80s when I was

9:12

a teenager this would have been

9:14

something that would have made people

9:17

nervous. Yeah I think that that

9:19

is right. And I think that

9:21

it's not all negative. I do

9:23

think there are some positive things.

9:25

And sort of the problem with

9:28

the ambiguity when there is a

9:30

problem is not necessarily that these

9:32

relationships aren't monogamous. I think it's

9:34

sort of more a question of

9:36

communication. So for some Gen Z

9:39

data, certainly these kind of gray

9:41

area situations allowed that sort of

9:43

freedom and were probably really positive

9:45

experiences or at least kind of

9:47

good experiences in learning experiences, which

9:50

is kind of the whole question

9:52

is like, are people getting the

9:54

learning experiences that young love can

9:56

give you? But I do think

9:58

they weren't, a lot of people

10:01

are not immune to the kind

10:03

of nervousness you're describing. because what

10:05

I've sort of heard in my

10:07

reporting is that a lot of

10:09

people feel like they're not supposed

10:12

to feel that nervousness, but but

10:14

then they still do, which wouldn't

10:16

inherently be bad, but I think

10:18

then if you feel like you're

10:20

not supposed to feel the nervousness,

10:23

you know, you feel guilty about

10:25

it and you don't talk about

10:27

it and then it can become

10:29

this bad cycle where young people

10:31

are kind of keeping romantic prospects

10:34

at arm's length because it's not

10:36

defined and they feel like they're

10:38

supposed to do that, but then

10:40

that distance can end in kind

10:42

of disappointment and hurt when things

10:45

don't work out and that sort

10:47

of confirms their sense that relationships

10:49

hurt. This article's headline mentions teens,

10:51

but of course the oldest members

10:53

of Gen Z are now approaching

10:56

their late 20s. Is there evidence

10:58

that people are sort of catching

11:00

up as time goes by or

11:02

are they still approaching dating and

11:04

relationships less enthusiastically in young adulthood

11:07

than earlier generations? I think this

11:09

is a phenomenon in you know

11:11

even some of the older older

11:13

people in Gen Z and and

11:15

Phillips teaching that college class had

11:18

found this you know with her

11:20

college age students and and so

11:22

part of it is I think

11:24

some of this sort of hesitant

11:26

about romance, it can build over

11:29

time. So it certainly doesn't mean,

11:31

you know, if you don't have

11:33

a relationship as a teen, it

11:35

doesn't mean that you will, you

11:37

know, not be able to have

11:40

one in the future. But I

11:42

think that the suspicion can sort

11:44

of build. So if you feel

11:46

like you're not, you're already not

11:48

sure if you want to be

11:51

vulnerable in a relationship or or

11:53

if that is something for you,

11:55

and then you don't have that

11:57

kind of experience, the early experience

11:59

where you get hurt and then

12:02

you learn from it, I think

12:04

it can sometimes kind of get

12:06

scarier and scarier. And some of

12:08

that I think is also a

12:10

sort of, just a feeling of

12:13

like shame, because I don't think

12:15

that anyone should feel ashamed of

12:17

a lack of so-called romantic experience,

12:19

but. This came up in reporting

12:21

and also just comes up anecdotally

12:24

like I think there are a

12:26

lot of people who feel sort

12:28

of embarrassed about the fact that

12:30

they have reached young adulthood and

12:32

they haven't had a lot of

12:35

romantic experience or they haven't had

12:37

a defined relationship and then that

12:39

sort of makes it feel harder

12:41

to jump into it like it

12:44

feels like it's not as much

12:46

part of your identity and it's

12:48

also perhaps. You know you think

12:50

it's not something you will be

12:52

good at like you'll you'll get

12:55

into a relationship and the other

12:57

person will Know what to do?

12:59

Parents sometimes joke faith that they

13:01

won't allow their kids to date

13:03

until they're like 35 Is there

13:06

any evidence to suggest that teenagers

13:08

are being influenced by their parents

13:10

preferences that they maybe hold off

13:12

on dating and for the first

13:14

time ever teenagers are actually listening

13:17

to their parents on this? It's

13:20

an interesting question because people have

13:22

talked for so long about sort

13:25

of concern about teens having sex

13:27

and sort of getting into sexual

13:29

and romantic experience too early like

13:32

classically that has kind of been

13:34

the worry and now we've gotten

13:36

to this place where it's almost

13:39

the opposite of that like all

13:41

of a sudden a lot of

13:44

older adults are kind of like.

13:46

Wait, I'm hearing these statistics about

13:48

younger people not having these experiences

13:51

and now I'm worried about that.

13:53

So I do think, you know,

13:55

it's possible that this, I'm sure

13:58

there's plenty of parents out there.

14:00

who are worried about their teens

14:03

having these relationships. I don't think,

14:05

I think for a lot of

14:07

people it's a little more indirect.

14:10

So it's not necessarily that parents

14:12

are discouraging their kids from relationships,

14:14

but I do think there is

14:17

a more general sort of sense

14:19

of anxiety about the state of

14:21

the world and about the other

14:24

gender and about. interpersonal relationships, kind

14:26

of a lack of trust, that

14:29

can trickle down to younger people.

14:31

And I mean, just one sort

14:33

of way to think about this

14:36

is in recent years, there's been

14:38

sort of an increase in fear

14:40

about sexual assault and fear that

14:43

people say they have about dating

14:45

apps, people have less trust in

14:48

kind of dating apps being safe.

14:50

And and there's also been, you

14:52

know, kind of documenting this drift

14:55

between the genders where there's kind

14:57

of a lot of suspicion between

14:59

men and women. And so I

15:02

think, perhaps especially in kind of

15:04

the context of straight relationship, that

15:06

really does reach younger people. We

15:09

should ask then, Faith, how much

15:11

it matters whether adolescents and young

15:14

adults date, given that very few

15:16

people form a life partnership with

15:18

someone they went out within high

15:21

school, what does it matter that

15:23

young people have these practice relationships?

15:26

Well I think you know on

15:28

an individual level you could argue

15:31

that that maybe it doesn't. I

15:33

think I talked to developmental psychologists

15:35

about this and on the one

15:38

hand they said there's so much

15:40

you can learn from an early

15:42

romantic relationship when you're young you

15:45

know you can learn conflict management

15:47

you work out arguments you learn

15:49

how to. empathize across differences and

15:52

even just social graces like making

15:54

conversation and sort of on a

15:56

larger level you figure out who

15:58

you are and sort of what

16:01

you're looking for in someone else

16:03

who makes you feel good But

16:05

those are not skills that you

16:08

can only learn in romantic relationships

16:10

So the psychologist told me that

16:12

teens basically just need someone to

16:15

make them feel valued and And

16:17

that sets them up for secure

16:19

relationships in the future, but that

16:22

could be, you know, through friendships,

16:24

it could be a parent, it

16:26

could be a coach who's kind

16:29

of making you feel seen. And

16:31

so there are certainly skills you

16:33

can get from romantic relationships, but

16:36

no one should feel like they

16:38

need that or that they're at

16:40

a disadvantage if they don't have

16:43

it. And even in terms of

16:45

sort of gathering skills that will

16:47

help you in future romantic relationships.

16:50

You know, there's one study that

16:52

showed that having strong friendships as

16:54

a teen is more predictive than

16:57

than early romance of how successful

16:59

you'll be in romantic relationships in

17:01

the future. So on an individual

17:04

level, I don't I don't think

17:06

anyone should freak out. But then

17:08

I learned that it's sort of

17:11

a different question, you know, whether

17:13

we should be concerned about this

17:15

shift in general, because it could

17:18

point to sort of other concerning

17:20

reasons that we might be seeing

17:22

this. I'm guessing most of us

17:25

listening have never forgotten our first

17:27

love or our first heartbreak, which

17:29

can feel uniquely devastating when we've

17:32

never been through a breakup before

17:34

and don't quite know if we'll

17:36

survive it. Is it possible young

17:39

people or better off avoiding all

17:41

that up people? There

17:43

really is some good reason to

17:46

think that yeah, you know there

17:48

are studies that suggest that teens

17:50

who aren't dating are less depressed

17:52

on average teachers tend to see

17:55

them as having better leadership skills

17:57

and social skills. And I think

17:59

one thing that we tend to

18:01

forget when we're talking about this

18:04

is that young love is not

18:06

always good. We kind of romanticize

18:08

it, but it can be a

18:10

lot for a teen to handle,

18:12

you know, it's intense, it can

18:15

be a whirlwind when you're that

18:17

young, it can distract from other

18:19

things that are really important when

18:21

you're growing up, like friendship and

18:24

schoolwork and, you know, family. And

18:26

in the worst cases, young romance

18:28

can also be. abusive, of course,

18:30

there are really high rates among

18:33

adolescent girls of intimate partner violence.

18:35

And researchers told me that it's

18:37

especially hard sometimes for young people

18:40

to kind of recognize when a

18:42

relationship isn't healthy. So there really

18:44

might be, you know, a good

18:47

reason to just kind of say,

18:49

you don't need it, maybe wait

18:51

for that. In terms of this

18:54

correlation between adolescent dating

18:56

and mental health, It's worth

18:58

pointing out that if this is a

19:00

causal relationship it might work in either

19:03

direction, right? It could be that young

19:05

people with poor mental health are less

19:07

inclined to date rather than that

19:09

dating contributes to problems

19:12

like depression. Yes, that's absolutely right. I

19:14

think it's probably a little bit of

19:16

both and it's always hard to pull

19:19

it apart, but I do think, you

19:21

know, some people might be hearing about

19:23

this and thinking... as many people

19:25

already do, like, is there something

19:28

wrong with me that I haven't

19:30

had a relationship yet? And is

19:32

that kind of going to set me

19:34

on the wrong foot for the future?

19:36

And I do think it's just important

19:38

to say that that doesn't seem to

19:40

be the case at all. Having a

19:43

partner in adolescence can take

19:45

up a lot of bandwidth and

19:47

also a lot of actual time,

19:49

right? People want to spend all

19:51

their time together. What are these

19:53

young adults doing with the hours

19:55

they're not spending on dating?

19:58

I think that that is an... important

20:00

question and it of course varies

20:02

from person to person but Phillips

20:04

did tell me that, you know,

20:06

we hear so much these days

20:08

about people being lonely and not

20:10

spending enough time with other people.

20:12

Phillips did tell me that her

20:15

college students who were so wary

20:17

of romance did really feel like

20:19

friendship was important. So, you know,

20:21

I thought that was interesting that

20:23

it's not that they were sort

20:25

of just like spending all their

20:27

time on their phones, on social

20:29

media, which is kind of a

20:31

cliche of Gen Z. That they

20:34

really did think relationships were important,

20:36

but they had this sort of

20:38

specific weariness of romantic relationships. But

20:40

that said, I did also talk

20:42

to a researcher named Daniel Cox,

20:44

who has study this a lot

20:46

and he was telling me that

20:48

there is some correlation in terms

20:50

of, you know, people who spend

20:52

more time with friends are more

20:55

likely to have dated regularly in

20:57

their teen years. So I think,

20:59

There's lots of things that people

21:01

could be doing with this other

21:03

time, but there is a connection

21:05

in the sense that if you're

21:07

going to parties and you're connecting

21:09

with people regularly, it kind of

21:11

opens up your opportunities to fall

21:14

into romantic experiences. I wonder if

21:16

this slight pullback from dating and

21:18

you know, we should be clear

21:20

that it's not like no young

21:22

person ever wants to go on

21:24

a date again or have a

21:26

girlfriend or boyfriend or significant other,

21:28

but I wonder if it creates

21:30

more... ease for people who, for

21:32

whatever reason, can't find someone to

21:35

date. Like, there was a time

21:37

when it seemed like everybody else

21:39

had a boyfriend or a girlfriend,

21:41

and if you were the one

21:43

who didn't, even for a short

21:45

period of time, you would feel

21:47

like there was something wrong with

21:49

you. I wonder if that's just

21:51

not a thing that people deal

21:53

with anymore. really beautiful outside of

21:56

this. And I do think that's

21:58

happening to some degree. I mean,

22:00

you can tell on TikTok just

22:02

if you sort of search the

22:04

videos that are related to this.

22:06

There's a ton of people talking

22:08

about how they've never had a

22:10

relationship before and sort of reaching

22:12

so many people and there's so

22:15

many comments of people kind of

22:17

saying like this means so much

22:19

to me. And I have the

22:21

same thing. And I have the

22:23

same thing thing. And this. helps

22:25

to hear I'm not alone. So

22:27

I do think that there's some

22:29

normalization of this, which I think

22:31

is a good thing. And it

22:33

did occur to me that you

22:36

could easily assume all these negative

22:38

reasons for this shift, but I

22:40

do think part of it is

22:42

likely because there's less pressure to

22:44

have a romantic relationship. if people

22:46

kind of have a higher bar

22:48

and aren't sort of just settling

22:50

for romantic relationships, I do think

22:52

that's that are, you know, mediocre.

22:55

I think that's a good thing.

22:57

One person that I talked to

22:59

was, you know, remembering when she

23:01

was in school in the 80s

23:03

and it was like you had

23:05

to find a date for the

23:07

dance. Yeah. And I think that

23:09

would probably look pretty different, you

23:11

know, Gen Z prom. Yeah, I

23:13

think that this is when I

23:16

became aware of this phenomenon when

23:18

my daughters who were in their

23:20

20s now were in high school

23:22

and they were getting ready to

23:24

go to homecoming and I knew

23:26

neither of them had a date

23:28

and they said, oh, you don't

23:30

take a date to homecoming, you

23:32

take a date to promm, like

23:34

you... It would have been social

23:37

suicide when I was their age

23:39

to show up at a formal

23:41

dance without a partner and it

23:43

was completely fine and everybody did

23:45

it and they all had a

23:47

good time. Yeah, I think that

23:49

is really, that's the really good

23:51

thing and I love to hear

23:53

that and I do think, you

23:56

know, not just among young. but

23:58

in a kind of larger societal

24:00

sense, we are moving away from

24:02

romance in some ways, you know,

24:04

fewer people are getting married or

24:06

living with partners and, and, and

24:08

so I do think that is

24:10

a shift that can open the

24:12

doors to a lot of other

24:14

beautiful parts of life. But I

24:17

also think that the, there are

24:19

still a lot of people just,

24:21

you know, sort of from seems

24:23

from my reporting and anecdotally that

24:25

feel self-conscious about this and I

24:27

do wonder sometimes if the kind

24:29

of the norm is not totally

24:31

catching up to the reality. So

24:33

there are a lot of people

24:36

who feel like they are kind

24:38

of abnormal in the sense when

24:40

in fact if you look at

24:42

the statistics they're very much not.

24:44

Well you mentioned that you know

24:46

maybe some young people just don't

24:48

want to settle for a mediocre

24:50

partner. I think Gen X and

24:52

older adults will tell you they

24:54

mostly had mediocre partners in the

24:57

earliest parts of their dating life.

24:59

Most of us survived this. What

25:01

do we learn and what can

25:03

we only learn by dating different

25:05

kinds of people about who we

25:07

should ultimately end up with? I

25:09

think it certainly does help to

25:11

have early romantic relationships and kind

25:13

of figure out what you don't

25:16

like in a partner. I mean,

25:18

I think that's that's one benefit

25:20

and of course it's every experience

25:22

as a growing experience. But psychologists

25:24

did tell me that. you shouldn't

25:26

assume that there's sort of such

25:28

clear boundaries between different parts of

25:30

your life and what you can

25:32

learn in them, that in fact

25:34

it doesn't always work that way.

25:37

So sort of what you learn

25:39

in all of your relationships is

25:41

sort of contributing to your sense

25:43

of who you are, you know,

25:45

what what what kind of person

25:47

you get along with. how you

25:49

don't like to be treated, that

25:51

we're sort of always gathering the

25:53

status. We go through the world

25:55

and that does contribute to our

25:58

sense of. of what would matter

26:00

to us in a relationship. One

26:02

really interesting thing that you discovered

26:04

in your reporting on this was

26:06

that most people of all ages

26:08

expect to be somewhat shaped by

26:10

their romantic relationships, but it turns

26:12

out it may often work the

26:14

other way around. The sort of

26:17

person you are determines the sort

26:19

of relationship you have. That's

26:21

right. I thought that was so

26:24

interesting too. And it goes back

26:26

to the question of whether people

26:28

are sort of feeling self-conscious about

26:30

this. I have talked to a

26:32

lot of people who feel like

26:35

if they haven't had a romantic

26:37

relationship, they will not be a

26:39

good partner in the future because

26:41

they just won't be ready for

26:43

it. But yes, the researchers I

26:46

talked to didn't. think that would

26:48

be true because there is you

26:50

know a lot of evidence that

26:52

our personality shapes how we experience

26:54

relationships and how we show up

26:56

to these relationships and though you

26:59

can change your personality it's hard

27:01

to do and you know largely

27:03

for most people it's it's stable

27:05

throughout your life for the most

27:07

part so there is you know

27:10

sort of interesting studies showing, for

27:12

instance, that people tend to have

27:14

similar levels of relationship satisfaction with

27:16

different partners, which is surprising. You

27:18

would think, you know, different partners

27:21

are one will be much better

27:23

fit than another one. But part

27:25

of it is also just how

27:27

you are experiencing these relationships because

27:29

of who you are. So it

27:32

does suggest that, you know, you

27:34

won't be at a disadvantage because

27:36

you're you and you're bringing yourself

27:38

to your partnership. So maybe we

27:40

don't need to worry so much

27:42

about this. Talk about the study

27:45

you came across that looked at

27:47

the self-esteem of people who had

27:49

not dated really during adolescence, but

27:51

had had a first relationship by

27:53

about their mid-20s. Yeah, so I

27:56

mean, it's sort of just what

27:58

we're talking about that this study

28:00

suggested that you know, if people

28:02

had had a romantic relationship by

28:04

age 26, it... It didn't really

28:07

matter in terms of their self-esteem

28:09

development. they had one and adolescence.

28:11

So it's self-esteem. It's actually something

28:13

that personality psychologists talk about. It

28:15

sounds like maybe it would be

28:17

a little different, but it is

28:20

kind of can fit under that

28:22

umbrella of sort of who you

28:24

are. And it's one of those

28:26

things that can be consistent despite,

28:28

you know, or regardless of whether

28:31

you've had a relationship in teenhood.

28:33

or not, that in this kind

28:35

of more core sense, you know,

28:37

your self-esteem development isn't necessarily affected

28:39

by that experience. One thing that

28:42

really fascinates me faith about this

28:44

retreat from dating is that there

28:46

was a time when teenagers and

28:48

adults alike sort of assumed adolescents

28:50

were going to be constantly seeking

28:52

romantic partners because of this like

28:55

undeniable surge of hormones. Maybe the

28:57

expectations around dating had as much

28:59

to do with everyone's choices as

29:01

the hormones did because there's no

29:03

evidence that teens today have different

29:06

hormones than they did 30 years

29:08

ago. No, I don't think they

29:10

do. And yes, I think that's

29:12

a really good distinction here. I

29:14

mean, I think that teens are

29:17

feeling probably all the same kind

29:19

of romantic urges and excitements and...

29:21

part of that, you know, a

29:23

lot of that can be a

29:25

growing experience too. So there is

29:27

a difference in not having as

29:30

many sort of defined relationships, but

29:32

teens are probably having still a

29:34

lot of, you know, big feelings

29:36

and getting, you know, getting their

29:38

heart broken and all of those

29:41

things that are kind of part

29:43

of the classic teen experience. It

29:45

is worth noting that the transition

29:47

from childhood to fully fledged adulthood

29:49

just seems to take longer now

29:52

than it did previously. Could it

29:54

be that young people are taking

29:56

longer to date the same way

29:58

many of them are taking longer

30:00

to say move out of their

30:02

parents' homes or stop? meeting other

30:05

kinds of help from adults. I

30:07

think that's likely part of it.

30:09

And yeah, there are all these

30:11

ways in which the transition to

30:13

adulthood is just taking longer now.

30:16

So right, that includes, you know,

30:18

things like people getting married later,

30:20

buying a home later. And I

30:22

don't think that that is all

30:24

negative. And, you know, in that

30:27

context, a sort of relative lack

30:29

of teen romantic experience could make

30:31

a lot of sense because the

30:33

deadline is extended. So I do

30:35

think that there are a lot

30:37

of young people who sort of

30:40

think like, I want to find

30:42

a romantic relationship someday, but I'm

30:44

right now I'm focusing on my

30:46

friends, I'm focusing on this hobby

30:48

that I'm passionate about, you know,

30:51

this choir that I'm in, and

30:53

that they're sort of not in

30:55

a rush to kind of settle

30:57

down and find a life partner,

30:59

which I think could be a

31:02

positive thing. And a fair number

31:04

of them are focusing on school.

31:06

The pressure to do very, very

31:08

well in school is different today

31:10

than it was for the boomers

31:13

or even Gen Xers. Yes, I

31:15

think that that is probably an

31:17

element here too. there is this

31:19

sort of increased yeah feeling a

31:21

lot of you know surveys with

31:23

teens saying they feel a lot

31:26

of pressure to do well academically

31:28

and with intensive parenting kind of

31:30

this parenting style norm now I

31:32

think that does start very early

31:34

and it can kind of follow

31:37

kids into teenhood that you know

31:39

where when we have kids a

31:41

lot of us don't just want

31:43

to keep them safe we want

31:45

to kind of cultivate children and

31:48

have them in extracurriculars and learning

31:50

skills and it is sort of

31:52

interesting to think how that shapes

31:54

what young people are prioritizing and

31:56

what they feel they should be

31:58

doing. and perhaps romance just doesn't

32:01

fit into that because it's kind

32:03

of messier. You can't put it

32:05

on a resume. And I think

32:07

that that could absolutely be an

32:09

aspect here. Based to ask someone

32:12

on a date is to take

32:14

a risk, right? The person you

32:16

like could turn out to not

32:18

be right for you or maybe

32:20

they'll say no outright. Are young

32:23

people now more wary of dating

32:25

for fear of getting hurt emotionally

32:27

or even being embarrassed? I

32:30

think that is absolutely, you

32:32

know, one of the reasons

32:34

for this shift and even

32:36

though there's a lot of

32:38

reason to think plenty of

32:40

teens don't need romantic experience,

32:42

we shouldn't fret over that.

32:44

This is kind of, you

32:46

know, one of the things

32:49

I found in my reporting

32:51

that was more concerning generational

32:53

researchers have for a while

32:55

now been describing Gen Z

32:57

as a generation that's overall

32:59

quite risk averse, slow to

33:01

trust, very concerned with. security

33:03

and feeling safe. And so

33:05

I think that is showing

33:07

up here and researchers I

33:09

talked to told me that

33:11

young people seem to really

33:13

want connection but kind of

33:15

feel anxious about finding it

33:18

and how to go about

33:20

it. And there are surveys

33:22

that back up the idea

33:24

that this is showing up

33:26

in romantic relationships. There's just

33:28

a lot of young people

33:30

who say that they're afraid

33:32

of getting rejected, afraid of

33:34

sharing their feelings about someone.

33:36

And it is, you know,

33:38

very, very difficult, I think,

33:40

to throw yourself into a

33:42

romantic relationship if you're so

33:44

worried about getting hurt because,

33:47

of course, you can't avoid

33:49

it in this situation. And

33:51

I also think something related

33:53

to that, which is interesting,

33:55

is that of course now

33:57

dating has so much been

33:59

shaped by online dating and

34:01

dating apps and researchers did also

34:03

say that you know even though lots

34:05

of teens are not on dating apps

34:08

they shouldn't be on dating apps there

34:10

is a way in which dating apps

34:12

have sort of shifted our sort

34:14

of the way that we think

34:16

about romance and whether we think

34:18

rejection is kind of an inherent

34:20

part of the experience and on

34:22

a dating app you know you

34:24

can't you if you match with

34:26

someone to some degree you know

34:28

that they're interested, it takes away

34:31

some of that fear of rejection.

34:33

So it could also be that

34:35

like our, you know, our sort

34:37

of dating culture is a little

34:39

bit rejection avoided and that is

34:41

particularly affecting young people because Gen

34:43

Z is already this very

34:45

risk averse generation. And many

34:47

are risk averse even, no

34:49

socially apprehensive even in their

34:51

platonic relationships, right? And I

34:53

think there is a connection here.

34:56

And yes, I talked to a

34:58

researcher who found that people

35:00

who had spent more time

35:02

with friends were kind of

35:05

more likely to have had

35:07

a relationship in their teen

35:10

years. So I do think

35:12

the sort of degree to

35:14

which you are getting social

35:17

experiences, having practice with vulnerability

35:19

and interpersonal trust. putting yourself

35:21

out there. You know, those

35:24

are things that can help

35:26

with connection in general and

35:28

also romantic connection and

35:30

without sort of that practice and

35:33

without trusting that it's worthwhile

35:35

to open up to someone.

35:38

It's hard to get romantic

35:40

relationships off the ground. It's important

35:42

to make young people aware

35:45

of the hazards of dating

35:47

violence, but I wonder if

35:49

messaging around this might also have

35:51

contributed a chilling effect to

35:53

young people's interest in romantic

35:55

relationships. I think that's right. I

35:58

think that the cultural messaging... a

36:00

long time has kind of been,

36:02

you know, that young people should

36:04

be wary of romantic relationships and

36:07

should be very careful and should

36:09

we? And I think there's a

36:11

lot of truth to that, but

36:13

now we're sort of realizing that

36:16

actually a lot of us think

36:18

there is something beneficial about romance

36:20

when you're young, even if there's

36:22

risk, because some of that risk

36:25

is, you know, part of growing

36:27

up. The researchers I talked to

36:29

basically said they want young people

36:31

to feel like they can have

36:34

romantic experiences and not be afraid.

36:36

And they also think they should

36:38

be aware of the risks and

36:40

that really adults should just be

36:43

talking to the young people in

36:45

their lives about what is going

36:47

on in their romantic life if

36:50

they're comfortable sharing that and kind

36:52

of opening a line of communication

36:54

so that young people feel like.

36:56

this is normal and they can

36:59

explore romantic feelings if they want,

37:01

but they also, you know, know

37:03

they have somewhere to turn and

37:05

they know kind of what warning

37:08

signs are of a relationship that

37:10

that isn't a healthy one. That's

37:12

really interesting. I mean, many adult

37:14

authority figures, parents, teachers have felt

37:17

a responsibility to teach adolescents about

37:19

sex and about their changing bodies.

37:21

I wonder if we should think

37:23

about adding in more lessons about

37:26

love and relationships as opposed to

37:28

assuming they'll just figure that part

37:30

out on their own when they

37:32

like someone. I think that's a

37:35

great idea. Yeah. And I think

37:37

in past generations, you know, it

37:39

might not have seemed as necessary

37:41

because a lot of people were

37:44

kind of for better or for

37:46

worse, probably just kind of throwing

37:48

themselves into dating situations more often.

37:50

But I... do think yeah now

37:53

it's probably a good idea to

37:55

be talking about this explicitly and

37:57

and yeah maybe starting in adolescence

37:59

and and I think that just

38:02

opening that communication will shape young

38:04

adulthood when people get there too.

38:06

This didn't come up explicitly in

38:08

your article, but I did wonder

38:11

whether younger people who are not

38:13

as invested in gender binaries as

38:15

earlier generations were, maybe lack visible

38:18

dating role models to figure out

38:20

what it should look like if

38:22

they are not interested in sort

38:24

of traditional heterosexual, even same-sex dating.

38:27

I think that's a great point.

38:30

And I do think that was

38:32

reflected somewhat in, you know, what

38:34

Lisa Phillips was finding in talking

38:37

to her students about love, like,

38:39

so many of them had this

38:41

kind of scornful attitude understandably about

38:44

all these tropes they'd been surrounded

38:46

by the, the romcoms they'd seen,

38:48

they had kind of, you know,

38:51

been working on unlearning these. harmful

38:53

or just silly sort of tropes

38:55

about romance. But then the question

38:58

is sort of what, you know,

39:00

what you're left with if you

39:02

unlearn all of those, like they're,

39:05

you know, that those haven't always

39:07

been replaced by kind of more

39:09

positive messages about romance that are

39:12

perhaps like more realistic. I think

39:14

there was a big sense among

39:16

young people that if these if

39:19

romance is always depicted as something

39:21

so idealistic and perfect they're just

39:23

like that's not going to happen

39:26

that doesn't seem like it's from

39:28

the real world. But what Lisa

39:30

Phillips and a lot of other

39:33

people I talked to wanted young

39:35

people to know is like love

39:37

is real and can be real

39:40

and even though it doesn't always

39:42

look that perfect that doesn't mean

39:44

that it's always unattainable or not

39:47

worth pursuing. Why do some researchers

39:49

think this retreat from adolescent dating

39:51

might prove harder on boys than

39:54

on girls? Is going back... what

39:56

I was saying earlier about, you

39:58

know, how you can get a

40:01

lot of the social skills that

40:03

you need from platonic relationships. So

40:05

even just making small talk and

40:08

also, you know, resolving conflicts and

40:10

learning how to trust people, that

40:12

it's all well and good if

40:15

you can get those from from

40:17

friendships, but a lot of boys

40:19

don't have the same close friendships

40:22

that girls do. So they are

40:24

likely to be more kind of

40:26

out of disadvantage. And one researcher

40:29

was even telling me that a

40:31

lot of boys and young men

40:33

learn social skills in general from

40:36

women in their lives. So sometimes

40:38

that's from a mother or a

40:40

sister or from a female friend.

40:43

But without those relationships, dating then

40:45

becomes more important. you know, have

40:47

these formative early relationships where they

40:50

get support, emotional support, but they

40:52

also learn a lot and they

40:54

learn how to trust people and

40:57

also how to treat people well.

40:59

You mentioned earlier that some young

41:01

people worry that it will be

41:04

a turn off if they tell

41:06

somebody they like that they like

41:08

them. Does research back that up?

41:11

Do people not like being told

41:13

by someone that they think they're

41:15

great? I'm not aware of anything

41:18

that's backed that up. You can

41:20

scratch that on. You know, I

41:22

think of course you do get

41:25

rejected in romantic pursuits or most

41:27

of us do. So it's not,

41:29

you know, that that's never going

41:32

to happen. I think, like, I

41:34

wish I could tell young people

41:36

out there that if they open

41:39

up about their feelings to someone

41:41

that it'll go well. And The

41:43

reality is that it might not

41:46

go well, you know, sometimes it

41:48

doesn't. But if you kind of

41:50

continue as a practice opening up

41:53

to people and trying to share

41:55

your future. I think it then,

41:57

you know, it sort of ends

42:00

that cycle of keeping people at

42:02

a distance and then because people

42:04

are at a distance, you feel

42:07

like these relationships are not feeling

42:09

good or not working out for

42:11

you. So, you know, in the

42:14

bigger picture, I think it will

42:16

lead to less hurt, even if

42:18

along the way there are some

42:21

hurtful moments. As you mentioned earlier,

42:23

teenagers are not supposed to

42:25

be on dating apps, but maybe

42:27

influenced by that culture. I mean, it

42:30

strikes me that adults who want

42:32

to date now don't necessarily have

42:34

to go through the social risk

42:36

of walking up to someone looking

42:38

in the mini eye and asking

42:40

them out. We expect teenagers to be

42:43

able to do this, but they may

42:45

have never seen an adult do this

42:47

because that's not how adults on the

42:49

apps ask one another out. Yes,

42:51

that's exactly right. I think it's

42:53

kind of a confusing situation for

42:55

a lot of young people, you

42:58

know, there. being told that like

43:00

it's, you know, they feel like

43:02

they should be in romantic

43:04

relationships. It's normal, but right,

43:06

the way for them to

43:09

do that really would be

43:11

like with their peers in

43:13

school and that's just sort

43:15

of not the dating culture

43:17

that we have right now.

43:20

And I think there is

43:22

sort of a lot of emphasis

43:24

culturally in a larger

43:26

sense on kind of Right,

43:28

like the having the validation

43:31

and the safety that dating apps

43:33

can give you in terms

43:35

of knowing that that someone

43:37

is interested and I think some

43:39

of this cultural change has been

43:42

a good thing right like there's

43:44

sort of it's less accepted to

43:46

kind of hit on someone at

43:48

work or or even at a

43:50

bar and and in a lot

43:53

of ways that's a good thing

43:55

because you don't want people sort

43:57

of always approaching you and

43:59

putting on the spot and making

44:01

you uncomfortable. But I do think

44:04

with the cultural change that kind

44:06

of is less accepting of romantic

44:08

overtures, it's not a lot of

44:10

models for young people about how

44:12

to sort of do that in

44:14

a respectful way. And right, perhaps

44:17

not a lot of adults giving

44:19

them great advice about it either.

44:21

What feels to most older Americans

44:23

like traditional dating practices, that was

44:25

a relatively new thing, right? Dating

44:28

to the late 19th and early

44:30

20th centuries, I wonder if this

44:32

is just a new phase in

44:34

our culture and how we do

44:36

things. Yeah, I think that there

44:39

are a lot of growing peons

44:41

and, you know, we sort of

44:43

figure out new ways to do

44:45

things and... I do think like

44:47

it's not like teen dating is

44:49

over forever, but I do think

44:52

it's a it's it's sort of

44:54

a tough period for this generation

44:56

and and it makes sense that

44:58

romance would kind of be a

45:00

reflection about other, you know, parts

45:03

of how this generation is doing

45:05

and how the world is doing.

45:07

It's a generation that's grown up

45:09

with a lot of uncertainty in

45:11

the world and sort of you

45:14

know been told that climate change

45:16

that like the world is ending

45:18

and there's all of these very

45:20

real reasons to kind of be

45:22

stressed and that that does affect

45:24

dating life so you know I

45:27

don't know that it will that

45:29

all of these exact changes will

45:31

be going forever but I think

45:33

that this statistic the shift is

45:35

kind of a maybe part of

45:38

a snapshot of a larger moment

45:40

in time for this generation and

45:42

There's a lot of ways that

45:44

the rest of our lives kind

45:46

of is that the dating can

45:49

be a microcosm of that Of

45:51

course you know to the peace

45:53

telling ourselves we do not need

45:55

love in this moment or ever.

45:57

I mean, that doesn't make it

45:59

true. It can be totally worth

46:02

the risk, but none of us

46:04

can know this until we try

46:06

it. Right. And yeah, that's what

46:08

I would sort of want young

46:10

people to come away from this

46:13

with, that I think it's not

46:15

that you need to have a

46:17

romantic relationship, but that it's worth

46:19

having a sense of curiosity about

46:21

it, I think. in order to

46:24

sort of find out what this

46:26

is like, which I think a

46:28

lot of young people are curious

46:30

about. You do have to sort

46:32

of be vulnerable to a certain

46:34

degree, so it's maybe worth sort

46:37

of being open to them. Faith

46:39

Hill is a staff writer at

46:41

the Atlantic and author of the

46:43

article, Teens are foregoing a classic

46:45

rite of passage. Faith, this is

46:48

also interesting. Thank you for the

46:50

conversation. Thank you so much. Think

46:52

is distributed by PRX, the Public

46:54

Radio Exchange. You can find us

46:56

on Facebook and Instagram and wherever

46:59

you get podcasts by searching for

47:01

K-E-R-A-A-think. The website is think. K-E-R-A.org.

47:03

Again, I'm Chris Boyd. Thanks for

47:05

listening. Have a great day.