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in all states. Most

1:02

of us probably remember something from

1:04

our years in school that really

1:06

ignited our brains. For me, it was a

1:08

unit in my eighth grade English class.

1:10

We read two dystopian novels, then broke

1:12

up into small groups to build our

1:15

own utopian society, and we had to

1:17

record a slice of life video as

1:19

our final project. There were some requirements

1:21

about things that had to be

1:23

included in that video, sure. But

1:25

they were broad, and our imaginations

1:27

could run wild. I still remember

1:29

so much about that project and

1:31

loved watching the videos my fellow

1:33

classmates came up with too. In that

1:36

class almost exactly 30 years ago I

1:38

was fully and joyfully engaged with what

1:40

I was learning. But today research

1:42

shows the majority of teenagers

1:44

associate school with boredom, apathy and

1:47

stress. From K-E-R-A in Dallas this

1:49

is think. I'm Courtney Collins in

1:51

for Chris Boyd. So how did teen disengagement

1:53

at school get so pervasive? And how

1:56

can schools, teachers, and parents wrench the

1:58

steering wheel and the other? These

2:00

are some of the questions education expert

2:02

Rebecca Winthrop and journalist Jenny Anderson tackled

2:04

in their new book. It's called The

2:07

Disengaged Teen, helping kids learn better, feel

2:09

better, and live better. And Jenny Anderson

2:11

joins us now to talk about it.

2:13

Jenny, welcome to think. Thanks so much

2:15

for having me. So I'm wondering what

2:17

drew you to this topic? Did you

2:19

see a statistic or some research that

2:21

alarmed you? Do you know, Rebecca and

2:23

I were just really compelled by this

2:25

question of why so many kids hate

2:27

school? It's where they spend so much

2:29

of their lives and there was a

2:31

lot of talk about a mental health

2:33

crisis and everyone was blaming phones and

2:35

we definitely saw a problem there but

2:37

we suspected there was more to it

2:39

and that possibly the way they spent

2:41

their days in school was also contributing

2:43

and so we decided to dig in.

2:45

So there was something you all wrote

2:47

in the intro to the book that

2:49

really stuck with me. You said more

2:51

than ever before, what kids need now

2:53

is to become better at learning. Will

2:55

you elaborate on that? Sure, absolutely. I

2:57

mean, kids have been disengaged for time

2:59

eternal. There's the reason that Ferris Bueller's

3:02

day off was, you know, was a

3:04

classic. And, you know, there's a sort

3:06

of long and storied genre of the

3:08

disaffected teen. But the consequences of that

3:10

disengagement matter a lot more now. Kids

3:12

know and feel that the world outside

3:14

is different and demands a lot of

3:16

them. that are needed to succeed in

3:18

the world are not just literacy and

3:20

numeracy which they did used to be

3:22

right we need critical thinking skills we

3:24

need collaborative we need problem solving media

3:26

literacy we need AI literacy there's all

3:28

these things we need and kids feel

3:30

that they're not being prepared and they

3:32

really really internalize a sense of kind

3:34

of stress and apathy which when you

3:36

think about it is kind of a

3:38

remarkable combination right sort of having to

3:40

feel that at the same time all

3:42

day every day and Kids don't just

3:44

disengage because they're not interested. There's a

3:46

lot of reasons kids disengage, right? Sometimes

3:48

they're overwhelmed, sometimes they're withdrawn. Can you

3:50

kind of explain to me why kids...

3:52

disengage from the learning that's in front

3:54

of them? Sure. I mean, we found

3:57

that kids turn up to their learning

3:59

in kind of four different ways. We

4:01

call them the four modes of learning.

4:03

One is as a passenger. This is

4:05

when they are sort of coasting along

4:07

doing the bare minimum. As you say,

4:09

this is often because they are overwhelmed

4:11

or underwhelmed. They find it way too

4:13

easy or they find it way too

4:15

hard and so they check out. Also,

4:17

there are a lot of kids in

4:19

resistor mode. These are the kids who

4:21

are withdrawing or acting out. These kids

4:23

often have something bigger going on and

4:25

kind of our job to figure out

4:27

what that is, but the way it

4:29

presents is often not particularly constructive. It's

4:31

not the best behavior, but it is

4:33

often a cry for help. Kids don't

4:35

have a lot of tools at their

4:37

disposal to sort of explain to us

4:39

what is going on. Achiever mode. These

4:41

are kids who want to strive for

4:43

perfection for perfection at all costs. you

4:45

know we found in our research that

4:47

a lot of kids are super burned

4:49

out in this mode they have the

4:52

highest risk of mental health challenges and

4:54

these are the kids that are just

4:56

going too hard and they are burning

4:58

out and then finally we found that

5:00

there are a small percentage of kids

5:02

who turn up an explorer mode these

5:04

are kids who kind of know how

5:06

to balance right they can figure out

5:08

what they need in the moment and

5:10

they know what they care about and

5:12

they dig in and they know how

5:14

to get through the rest and so

5:16

being able to kind of do that

5:18

And we are going to give a

5:20

lot of attention to each of the

5:22

four modes, so don't worry everyone, we're

5:24

going to come back to that. But

5:26

I wonder if you can talk about

5:28

the concept that disengagement is not a

5:30

flaw. It's more of a state, right?

5:32

It's not an inherent problem within the

5:34

kiddo. Absolutely. So disengagement is really the

5:36

mixture of the thoughts and feelings and

5:38

feelings and behaviors. an initiative that kids

5:40

take. And so it's shaped so much

5:42

by their environment, right? Is it a

5:44

sort of warm and loving environment where

5:47

they feel they belong and they have

5:49

something to add and they're a sort

5:51

of valued community member? Or is it

5:53

an environment where they feel stupid and

5:55

incapable? and they're not going to say

5:57

a word, they're not going to ask

5:59

a question, they're not even really going

6:01

to pay attention because they're super stressed

6:03

out. So the environment is very powerful,

6:05

their own sense of confidence and confidence

6:07

when they show up. really affects how

6:09

engaged they are. And you know, just

6:11

a lot of sort of life factors,

6:13

you know, did they have a fight

6:15

with their best friend? Are they falling

6:17

in love with someone? You know, did

6:19

they, did they forget to eat breakfast?

6:21

Were they not able to eat breakfast?

6:23

There's so many things that contribute to

6:25

engagement, but you're right. I think sometimes

6:27

as parents and as educators, we might

6:29

look and think like that kid's lazy.

6:31

Right? Or that kid just doesn't want

6:33

to try it. And you're thinking there's

6:35

more to it than that. And that's

6:37

kind of why we wrote the book,

6:39

like to try to give everyone a

6:42

little bit more of a peek under

6:44

the hood at some of the things

6:46

that might be going on. And you

6:48

kind of touched on this just a

6:50

moment ago, but can you explain kind

6:52

of what agency is regarding learners and

6:54

why it's so important for learners? Sure,

6:56

absolutely. So we define agency as the

6:58

ability to set a meaningful goal. and

7:00

deploy the resources and marshal the support

7:02

to get there. And so if you

7:04

break that down, I mean, it's kind

7:06

of a lot of words. We tried

7:08

to get shorter what we could have,

7:10

but what it means is that you

7:12

have that kind of self-awareness to figure

7:14

out what you care about. And you

7:16

know how to go after it and

7:18

you've got some strategies and if the

7:20

strategies don't work out you'll try other

7:22

ones right so you'll do you'll ask

7:24

for help if you're confused or lost

7:26

or along the way you know how

7:28

to ask a peer you know how

7:30

to ask a teacher you know as

7:32

someone in your church you know there's

7:34

multiple ways that you go about you

7:37

can go on the internet you can

7:39

use chat shepete and you know constructive

7:41

and you know ways to find information

7:43

so it's really that ability to kind

7:45

of drive your own learning. when AI

7:47

can do so much, this is going

7:49

to be an increasingly important skill. It's

7:51

not just about jumping through hoops, it's

7:53

about knowing what hoops you want to

7:55

get through, and also having that kind

7:57

of medicognition or knowing how to learn.

7:59

skill to be able to drive that

8:01

to set the goal to try to

8:03

get there to be able to deal

8:05

with setbacks and be resilient in the

8:07

face of some adversity. So going back

8:09

to the four modes of engagement

8:11

that you were speaking about earlier,

8:13

I want to talk a little

8:15

bit about the concept. that it's

8:17

funny, as I was reading this

8:20

book, I'm a parent, I have

8:22

a tween, and I also have

8:24

a younger child, I think anybody

8:26

who has spent any amount of

8:28

time with school-aged kids, whether they're

8:30

as a parent or a teacher,

8:32

as you read this book, you

8:34

start to see that these four

8:36

modes of engagement, within a

8:39

single day. I'm so glad

8:41

you brought that up and I should have

8:43

emphasized it earlier these are not labels these

8:45

are not ways to pigeonhole kids these are

8:48

not learning styles you know these are dynamic

8:50

fluid modes kids move around them as you

8:52

just said like in in the course of

8:54

a day you know we have a character

8:57

in the book who we literally show she's

8:59

in a different mode in four different classes

9:01

right that makes a lot of sense right

9:04

and that was Stella in the book on

9:06

the reason we you know kind of. develop

9:08

the modes and we talk about them is that

9:10

sometimes kids get stuck in them and when they

9:12

get stuck in them is when they can become

9:15

an identity and so we try to develop this

9:17

so parents could see what they were and you

9:19

know some kind of red flags to when they

9:21

get stuck and that's when you kind of need

9:24

to jump in and take action but you're absolutely

9:26

right they're really fluid dynamic modes this is not

9:28

a way to sort of label your kid.

9:30

Well, one thing I found interesting is

9:32

that you started with passenger mode, which

9:35

kind of makes sense when you think

9:37

about it, because I'm sure maybe a

9:39

lot of kids can find themselves here.

9:41

It doesn't feel like one of the

9:44

extremes that you might find in a

9:46

high achiever mode, or if you're really

9:48

struggling in resistor mode, but passenger

9:51

mode, the question I want to start

9:53

with is, why do kids who are kind

9:55

of in passenger mode in school, sometimes

9:57

seem engaged when they're really

9:59

not? And this is the majority

10:01

of kids, and that was part of

10:03

the reason it was a brilliant editor

10:05

that moved it. We had a cheaper

10:08

mode first, and this particular editor said,

10:10

absolutely not, you know, passenger mode is

10:12

where most kids are. So in our

10:14

research, which is pretty extensive, which is

10:16

pretty extensive, we found that over 50%

10:18

of kids are in this mode, which

10:21

means they're kind of showing up, but

10:23

they're not actually really learning. right? They,

10:25

it's not that they can't engage, it's

10:27

that they're not engaging with their learning.

10:29

So that is definitely what we noticed

10:31

a lot. And I think that's, it's

10:33

also why parents get frustrated because they

10:36

know, they can see the capacity to

10:38

be engaged and it feels a bit

10:40

of an affront that you're not engaging

10:42

in, you quote unquote should be engaging

10:44

in. So I think that's a real

10:46

frustration point for parents. I was really

10:49

fascinated by the concept of the zone

10:51

of proximal development or ZPD for short

10:53

so God bless you for using the

10:55

acronym because I know I couldn't learn

10:57

off the top of my head. What

10:59

is the zone of proximal development and

11:02

why is it that kids who are

11:04

kind of above or below it are

11:06

struggling in school? I'm so glad you

11:08

love that term. I love that term

11:10

so much. And when I found it,

11:12

I was like, like, literally, it's one

11:15

of the things you find it and

11:17

then you see it everywhere. So it's

11:19

developed by a Soviet psychologist in the

11:21

30s. And basically what he observed and

11:23

now teachers learn about this and, you

11:25

know, teacher training programs is that kids,

11:28

there is an optimal sweet spot of

11:30

learning where kids are stretched. and supported.

11:32

So you are trying to reach a

11:34

higher goal. You're motivated because there's something

11:36

you're trying to reach, but you don't

11:38

feel abandoned in that moment. There is

11:41

scaffolding that's, you know, sort of support

11:43

along the way to get there. And

11:45

so teachers are really good, really good

11:47

teachers are good at sort of saying,

11:49

you know, you. me need to meet

11:51

this new stretch goal and you're thinking

11:53

there's no way I can do that

11:56

but that's what the teacher comes in

11:58

there like of course you can you

12:00

know I'm right here I'm going to

12:02

show you a few tips and tricks

12:04

and then I'm going to remove the

12:06

scaffolds and you're going to do it

12:09

by yourself and all the sudden your

12:11

ZPD has moved up a little bit

12:13

right so a lot of kids give

12:15

up because they are above or below

12:17

their ZPD so something if something is

12:19

just seems totally impossible impossible to that

12:22

you're so lost, right? That is a

12:24

really tough position to be in as

12:26

an adolescent. Equally, a huge number of

12:28

kids are really, really bored in school.

12:30

You know, there are a lot of

12:32

complex reasons for this, but that is

12:35

the truth. And so they're not stretched.

12:37

And so they check out because they're

12:39

bored. And we have a couple characters

12:41

in the book who are like, It

12:43

could really articulate that I was just

12:45

so bored I was poking my friends

12:48

I was sending notes I was doing

12:50

anything to entertain myself I was looking

12:52

out the window I was trying to

12:54

come up with the meaning of like

12:56

you know they're just their their brains

12:58

were trying to do something but they

13:01

weren't constructive and they don't look. you

13:03

know if you sort of solve them

13:05

in class you're not thinking oh wow

13:07

there's a real you know go get

13:09

her because they get it it doesn't

13:11

come out that way it's not that

13:14

clean but they are really really deeply

13:16

bored to tears and so finding that

13:18

ZPD is really tough it's a tough

13:20

challenge for teachers they have 30 kids

13:22

in their class you know figuring out

13:24

everybody ZPD as it changes is not

13:26

easy and that is one of the

13:29

promises of technology it hasn't. materialized yet,

13:31

but you know, a hope should be

13:33

helping to sort of figure that out

13:35

in the moment and then continuing to

13:37

set those stretch goals and then having

13:39

teachers right there, you know, live and

13:42

in person, helping kids get to that.

13:44

And you can understand easily how someone

13:46

who is not challenged could zone out

13:48

and teach themselves to entertain myself tricks

13:50

and then eventually gets to the point

13:52

where they are overwhelmed because they've missed

13:55

things because they've taught themselves how to

13:57

check out and look at the window

13:59

or curl their hair around their pencil.

14:01

Oh my gosh, the number of kids

14:03

who said to us, we spent three

14:05

years interviewing 100 teens like Bray. socio-economic

14:08

backgrounds, geographies, ethnicities, just a really really

14:10

wide range of kids and we were

14:12

shocked at the number of kids who

14:14

said to us, you know, I was

14:16

bored and I checked out and it

14:18

was so easy and then I tuned

14:21

back in and I had no idea

14:23

what was going on. And so that

14:25

absolutely happens all the time. And so

14:27

it's not even, you know, it's like

14:29

you can do a full circle in

14:31

the ZPD really, really quickly. And then,

14:34

you know, that happens with curriculum progression

14:36

and like kids kind of don't know

14:38

it and they don't know where the

14:40

holes are developing. realize there's a concept

14:42

that you don't even know how to

14:44

do. And again, really hard for kids

14:46

to know how to ask for help

14:49

to identify what they don't know to

14:51

figure out sort of the strategies to

14:53

kind of get there. So yeah, that

14:55

definitely happens a lot. All right, Jenny,

14:57

we were talking about one of the

14:59

four modes of engagement before we went

15:02

to break and that was passenger mode.

15:04

I have a couple more questions about

15:06

that before we move on to one

15:08

of the other ones. My big question

15:10

is. How do neurodivergent kids fit in

15:12

here? I assume that the challenges with

15:15

getting a neurodivergent kid who is in

15:17

a mode of learning that is not

15:19

benefiting them out of that mode is

15:21

probably extra difficult because some of the

15:23

variables aren't the same. Absolutely. And we

15:25

found a huge number of kids turning

15:28

up in passenger mode and resistor mode.

15:30

And obviously if that undiagnosed learning need...

15:32

isn't being noticed and isn't being supported,

15:34

a kid is going to feel incredibly

15:36

unsuccessful and they will check out. It

15:38

is a safety mechanism, right, of a

15:41

kid to say, if I'm not going

15:43

to succeed, I am not going to

15:45

try because that is a way better

15:47

outcome, especially sort of when you get

15:49

into the middle school and high school.

15:51

So we definitely did find that and

15:54

we found that, you know, another thing,

15:56

and this is a little bit counterintuitive,

15:58

but when kids who are neuro divergent

16:00

there is an acknowledgement that like, you

16:02

know, learning is really unique and really

16:04

hard and every does it a little

16:06

differently. And in a weird way, we

16:09

kind of want that, you know, at

16:11

a broader spectrum, right? Like we kind

16:13

of want that to be recognized that

16:15

not everybody learns the same way, but

16:17

kids who are nerd virgin, they suffer

16:19

a lot in the system right now.

16:22

You know, a lot of them fall

16:24

through the cracks. And They are falling

16:26

behind they are internalizing a story that

16:28

they are not a good learner they

16:30

are stupid they are behind they can't

16:32

keep up with their peers. If Rebecca

16:35

were here she would I know she

16:37

would talk about the story of her

16:39

son who really had internalized the story

16:41

that he wasn't very smart he was

16:43

dyslexic and he had ADHD and when

16:45

COVID hit she was very worried about

16:48

him she thought he would really suffer

16:50

as it turned out unshackled from sort

16:52

of the trying to keep up with

16:54

his peers, he thrived. You know, he

16:56

jumped up two grade levels because he

16:58

was able to drive his own learning

17:01

in his own way without all the

17:03

pressure of meeting the targets and taking

17:05

the tests and having to sit still

17:07

and do all the things that we

17:09

do to kids in classrooms. So we

17:11

do find that they turn up more

17:14

in sort of passenger and resistor mode

17:16

and you know, a kind of key

17:18

message in all of the book is

17:20

you really got to kind of get

17:22

under the hood, right? You've got to

17:24

get in there with your kid, and

17:26

you've got to be connected with them

17:29

to do that. They will block us

17:31

out for many reasons if they're feeling

17:33

very unsuccessful. They're feeling very unsuccessful. They're

17:35

feeling very unsuccessful. They're feeling very unsuccessful.

17:37

They're feeling very unsuccessful. They're feeling very

17:39

unsuccessful. They're feeling stupid. the struggles with

17:42

the reading, the really falling behind in

17:44

the classes, then you really do have

17:46

to kind of lean into that and

17:48

figure out what that is because you

17:50

need to develop the strategies to help

17:52

those kids succeed. And, you know, it's

17:55

so interesting about, certainly a lot of

17:57

kids who are in our diversion, you

17:59

know, there will be. of super star

18:01

explorer skills embedded in the way they

18:03

approach things and in the way they

18:05

learn things, they will think differently about

18:08

things. But we have to create the

18:10

opportunities for them to succeed because the

18:12

education system is not developed in

18:14

such a way to, you know, for them

18:16

to succeed. They're kind of very

18:18

rigid, academic, time sensitive parameters that

18:20

are being applied. And, you know,

18:22

not everyone can succeed in those.

18:24

But those. I just loved in this book

18:27

when you guys talked about Emily. the young

18:29

girl who was kind of overwhelmed by the

18:31

classroom environment and wasn't doing very well and

18:33

then came up with her own idea that

18:35

she could maybe convert one of the storage

18:37

cabinets into like a little Harry Potter cubby

18:40

for learning and took a little battery-powered lamp

18:42

in there and unlocked all kinds of potential

18:44

when she got into a cozy quiet little

18:46

nook to learn. But isn't that so powerful?

18:48

Because what she was learning is I

18:51

need certain things to be able to

18:53

learn to be able to process. I

18:55

need quiet. I need to sort of

18:57

drown out the noise in a way

18:59

that's more powerful than maybe more neurotypical

19:01

kids. And what was incredible about? And

19:03

what was incredible about? And what was

19:05

incredible about that story? And what was

19:07

incredible about that story and what was

19:10

incredible about that story? And I love

19:12

that you know, more neurotyp typical kids.

19:14

And what was, you know, you know,

19:16

great in that it could help her

19:18

with her learning and it communicated to

19:20

her, hey well done you trying to

19:22

figure out your sort of problem solve

19:24

your own learning environment, right? And that

19:26

is something that a lot of kids

19:28

don't learn in, you know, ever. So

19:31

there is, it's a great example of

19:33

how in trying to meet a very

19:35

particular need that she had, she's also

19:37

identifying kind of a strategy for success

19:39

in her own life, right? I need

19:41

quiet, I need to be separated, I

19:43

need to not be in this loud

19:45

environment, and I need people who are

19:47

going to support me to do that. So

19:49

I love that story too. So what a

19:51

trust builder too. I mean, she had a

19:54

kind of wacky idea and her teacher supported

19:56

her. She didn't get shut down. So my

19:58

guess is that probably when... teachers respond

20:00

that way that probably really encourages kids

20:02

to look inward to ask questions to

20:04

be more curious if they feel like

20:06

they're not going to get the door

20:08

slammed in their faces. Absolutely. Absolutely. So

20:10

why is it important to understand why

20:13

interests develop, how they develop? Why is

20:15

this crucial to helping engage kids who

20:17

may be in passenger mode? Sure. So,

20:19

I mean, it is, it feels very

20:21

counterintuitive to parents who have kids who

20:23

are spending a lot of time in

20:25

passenger mode to say to them. you

20:27

really need to lean into this kid's

20:29

interests. Because it feels like what you're

20:31

saying is I'm giving you permission and

20:33

I'm rewarding you for not doing the

20:35

thing you should be doing and I'm

20:37

rewarding the thing you do like. You

20:40

know, it feels like there's almost a

20:42

moral hazard problem. But that's kind of

20:44

not the way motivation works. If they're

20:46

not, kids are not feeling successful or

20:48

motivated in school, taking away the thing

20:50

that does give them energy and motivates

20:52

them. is not the solution. And that

20:54

happens a lot on a sort of

20:56

systemic level. Schools take away the interests.

20:58

I mean, a lot of parents do

21:00

too. And it's obviously, you know, well-meaning.

21:02

We're just trying to help the kids

21:04

succeed and develop the strategies they need.

21:07

But interest development is really interesting. It's

21:09

basically this kind of flywheel of success

21:11

where a kid is interested in something

21:13

they develop, you know, they kind of

21:15

dig in, they develop some success, they

21:17

get better, they want to dig in

21:19

more, they develop some better strategies, they

21:21

develop some better strategies, attack at economics.

21:23

It doesn't happen overnight. It's not like,

21:25

you know, magic silver bullet, like, you

21:27

know, I love skateboarding and now I

21:29

am amazing that biology, like, you know,

21:31

it doesn't work that way, but we

21:34

need to lean into that and not

21:36

away from it, because that is where

21:38

the kid is getting energy. And I

21:40

think it's that idea of sort of

21:42

build expertise and build something that is

21:44

authentically theirs and build something that I

21:46

you know we there was a developmental

21:48

scientist there was this great line that

21:50

you know adolescence is this strange task

21:52

of trying to stand out and fit

21:54

in at the same time and that

21:56

interest is really their way of sort

21:58

of distinguishing themselves. right? Because a lot

22:01

of what you do as a kid

22:03

is the same stuff that every other

22:05

kid is doing. And so I think

22:07

it is easy as a parent to

22:09

want to take those interests away when

22:11

the kid is not performing academically, but

22:13

really that interest space is the kind

22:15

of arena on which kids are going

22:17

to develop skills of attention and learning

22:19

and self-efficacy. So it is worth leaning

22:21

into those and not leaning out. Yeah,

22:23

I was going to ask you kind

22:25

of on that note, what do you

22:27

think about schools that have really strict

22:30

policies? Like if your grades aren't at

22:32

a certain level, then you're off the

22:34

team or you're benched from this club.

22:36

Do you think that works against kids?

22:38

I do. I do, I really do.

22:40

There's some evidence that there was a

22:42

research study from a group called 50

22:44

CAN and it shows that kids with

22:46

season D's participate in extracurriculars at about

22:48

half a level of kids with sort

22:50

of A's and B's and I think

22:52

the research is really compelling that those

22:54

kids need a pathway back in and

22:57

more academics and forcing them to do

22:59

more academics is not. likely to be

23:01

that pathway. Now, I certainly understand also,

23:03

you know, these are developing teams, you

23:05

need, you need accountability. So we're not

23:07

saying kind of like kids do whatever

23:09

they want at all. Of course, schools

23:11

need accountability and they need tools. But

23:13

what we are saying is that when

23:15

you're losing a kid, if you take

23:17

away the thing, the one thing they

23:19

love, the chance that you will lose

23:21

that kid is really high. So let's

23:24

talk about achiever mode now. We all

23:26

kind of probably can recognize the hallmarks

23:28

of a high achiever, you know, great

23:30

grades and lots of activities and lots

23:32

of striving. Probably teachers love them as

23:34

a rule because it makes it easy.

23:36

Can you distinguish though between the happy

23:38

achiever and the unhappy achiever? Sure. So

23:40

happy achievers are, as you say, they're

23:42

like the go-getters, teachers love them, parents,

23:44

love them, and parents feel really good

23:46

about themselves. them up for success. And

23:48

so happy achievers are kind of. setting

23:51

goals, they're organized, they're disciplined, they're developing

23:53

a lot of really, really good skills.

23:55

Happy Achiever mode tips into unhappy Achiever

23:57

mode, like way more often than we

23:59

like to admit. And in Unhappy Achiever

24:01

mode, these are the kids who are

24:03

striving for perfection and not for excellence.

24:05

They are really knocked down by any

24:07

setback. And no kid can be perfect.

24:09

They become extraordinarily fragile. And the mental

24:11

health stats for these kids are the

24:13

worst of all of the modes, even

24:15

resistor You know, I think we all

24:18

want our kids to be ambitious. We

24:20

all want our kids to achieve. Like,

24:22

I, of course, want that for my

24:24

own kids. I just don't want the

24:26

system to break them. And so I

24:28

think the challenge with achievement mode is

24:30

looking really honestly at the kid in

24:32

front of you and figuring out if.

24:34

the system is kind of taking more

24:36

than the kid can handle. Because the

24:38

system is, you know what I mean,

24:40

the system is never going to say,

24:42

you know, that's enough, no more, right?

24:45

Like more extracurriculars, more classes, more sports,

24:47

more, you know, the system is set

24:49

up to kind of be insatiable. And

24:51

so with an achievement mode, I think

24:53

our job as parents, and I have

24:55

one of these so I can speak

24:57

really honestly to this particular, to this

24:59

particular, to this particular, balance self-care, sleep,

25:01

I mean, achievement mode kids for notoriously

25:03

bad sleepers, you know, they're sleeping five,

25:05

six hours a night, like that is

25:07

not good for development. Kids need to

25:09

sleep so they can learn well, so

25:11

they can have good friends, it's harder

25:14

to maintain friendships when you're tired, you

25:16

know, it's bad for the physically, mentally,

25:18

emotionally, everything. And so I think the

25:20

challenge with achievement mode is as you

25:22

say, they are, they feel good to

25:24

everyone. But the question is, are they

25:26

setting themselves up for success for success,

25:28

not always, not always. I would guess

25:30

that of all of the modes, identity

25:32

has a really kind of complicated place

25:34

in the world of achiever mode because

25:36

I'm guessing that achiever mode and identity

25:38

people often encourage those two things to

25:41

be close together. You're the smart one.

25:43

you're the one I can count on,

25:45

you're not a problem, we don't do

25:47

this. Like, I can assume, I could

25:49

just see a kid in achiever mode

25:51

being praised for being an achiever and

25:53

then that gets closer and closer to

25:55

who they think they are. Oh, absolutely.

25:57

There's a huge, I mean, we're big

25:59

fans of Jenny Brenny Wallace who wrote

26:01

the book Never Enough, and the number

26:03

of kids. who are high achievers, who

26:05

internalize the message that they are their

26:08

grades, they are their achievements on the

26:10

field, they are their, you know, sort

26:12

of gold stars, you know, it's staggering.

26:14

And even if we're saying the right

26:16

things, I mean, I think you've just

26:18

pointed it out, we can't help ourselves,

26:20

like, oh my God, you got an

26:22

eight, like, we can't help but be

26:24

excited, you know, it's really, really hard.

26:26

And like, of course, you want to

26:28

celebrate your kids' your kids' success, and

26:30

not the outcome. And so if my

26:32

kid comes home with, and by the

26:35

way, I've totally messed this up a

26:37

million times, so I'm not preaching from

26:39

any more moral high ground, but you

26:41

know, I have tried over the years

26:43

to be like, hey, you know, they

26:45

got a good grade. First of all,

26:47

I don't ask about the grades to

26:49

be like, hey, you know, they got

26:51

a good grade. First of all, I

26:53

don't ask about the grades very much.

26:55

paid off. Well done. You know, same

26:57

thing when you get kind of the

26:59

not so great grade, you know, like

27:02

what do you think happens? Like what

27:04

would you do differently next time versus

27:06

the like, oh my God, you know,

27:08

sort of the panic. But in a

27:10

cheaper mode, I do think it's really

27:12

hard to communicate that really they are

27:14

more than their grades because it feels

27:16

so good to everybody around them. And

27:18

I think people are very anxious about

27:20

performance, they're very anxious about college admissions,

27:22

they're very anxious about the economy, like,

27:24

and so this is something to hold

27:26

on to. And so I do agree

27:28

with you, I think it's a really

27:31

tricky message, but I think we can

27:33

look at sort of burn out anxiety,

27:35

mental health statistics and say, hey, we

27:37

have a problem here. Like, and I

27:39

know a lot of people want to

27:41

ascribe it just to social media, but

27:43

when you ask kids. the number one

27:45

thing that stresses them out, they say

27:47

school. And so I think we should

27:49

really listen to them when they say

27:51

that. I had in high school a

27:53

college counselor who's a really kind of

27:55

a cool guy. And I remember him

27:58

saying to me when I was talking

28:00

about college stuff, remember that colleges want,

28:02

he said, they don't want a bunch

28:04

of really hyper well-rounded students. They want

28:06

a well-rounded student body. And basically he

28:08

was encouraging me to kind of go

28:10

deep instead of broad, which is a

28:12

concept you talk about a lot. if

28:14

you're interested in something, maybe go deep

28:16

on that interest instead of panicking yourself,

28:18

that you have to be spread across

28:20

all these different arenas. I'm assuming kids

28:22

in achiever mode probably have a really

28:25

difficult time sometimes not going really broad.

28:27

They want to do all of it

28:29

and they want to be the best

28:31

at all of it. Absolutely. And that

28:33

is obviously the thing that will end

28:35

up doing them in because you can't

28:37

be excellent at all things. I did

28:39

a front page story for the New

28:41

York Times. I want to say in

28:43

2000. six that was about the shift

28:45

in the tutoring market from sort of

28:47

kids who are struggling. So I have

28:49

a C in math. I'm going to

28:52

get a tutor because I'm clearly having

28:54

a problem, which makes a lot of

28:56

sense to tutoring in every subject to

28:58

get to an A. So the idea

29:00

is like the whole market is just

29:02

changing, right? Like suddenly kids need to

29:04

be good at everything and not you

29:06

know, kind of have strengths and weaknesses

29:08

and areas that they're strong at and

29:10

others. I mean, we do say, you

29:12

know, especially with the cheaper mode kids,

29:14

like you can communicate to them, hey,

29:16

sometimes you need passenger moments, like you

29:19

are going to have like for the

29:21

sake of self care for the safe

29:23

self preservation, you're going to have to

29:25

learn to do this. We highlight the

29:27

story of a young woman at Yale

29:29

who was just in, you know, kind

29:31

of off the charts. for a former

29:33

and she was doing great and she

29:35

had never really had any setbacks or

29:37

failures. So when she got to Yale

29:39

and she got rejected from a couple

29:41

clubs, the investment banking club and then

29:43

she got rejected from another club and

29:46

she was really struggling with computer science,

29:48

she never struggled before it. She was

29:50

like, oh, it's gave over because I

29:52

don't, I have no idea what to

29:54

do and she almost dropped. out. You

29:56

know, there was there was no kind

29:58

of sense of where are my resources?

30:00

Where is my energy? Like of course

30:02

I can come back from this and

30:04

her teachers were emailing her saying, do

30:06

you need help? And she said, I

30:08

could not admit to them that I

30:10

needed help because that would mean I

30:12

was admitting I wasn't the smart person

30:15

they all thought I was. I mean,

30:17

it was really kind of heartbreaking. And

30:19

so I think while we have them

30:21

at home we should be communicating hey

30:23

even smart kids struggle right like yes

30:25

you're smart but you work really hard

30:27

you know this is why growth mindset

30:29

is so powerful this idea of like

30:31

your effort you know with effort you

30:33

can grow and change we're not all

30:36

sort of like a fixed imprint of

30:38

abilities and or capabilities right we can

30:40

all change and grow so I think

30:42

that's an important message for a cheaper

30:44

mode kids. And I'm really heartened as a

30:46

parent whenever I see the teachers focus

30:48

on growth on things like standardized tests

30:50

or assessments and it seems to be

30:52

the first thing brought up often in

30:54

my world at least a parent and

30:57

teacher conferences now is how much my

30:59

kid approved for himself instead of we

31:01

want to get everybody here and that's

31:03

always kind of heartening to see I

31:05

mean I'm guessing though individual teachers while

31:07

that may be the growth mindset may

31:09

be taught I think it's probably individual

31:11

teachers who make a difference in helping

31:13

kids see their value and see their

31:15

growth potential. Absolutely. And that's,

31:17

I mean, the reason we wrote the

31:19

book for parents is we were like,

31:21

hey, I mean, the first iteration of

31:23

our book, the first year of work

31:25

on our book was a book about

31:28

schools and school design. How do you

31:30

design schools for thriving? Like, what does

31:32

that look? How do you design schools

31:34

for thriving? Like, what does that look

31:36

like? And then we kind of pivoted

31:38

because we were like, hey, this is

31:40

the stuff you can do to communicate

31:42

to your kid about. the kind of

31:44

learning skills and learning approaches that they

31:47

need. You know, it really is a

31:49

kind of sort of coaching mentality. Jenny,

31:51

we were talking about different modes of engagement.

31:53

We've spoken so far about passenger mode

31:55

and the cheever mode. Of course, I

31:57

want to devote some time to resistor

31:59

mode. People probably think they know what

32:01

this looks like. Does every kid in

32:04

a resistor mode act and seem the

32:06

same way? Absolutely not. I mean, that

32:08

says so many different variations like all

32:10

kids, right? Anyone with more than one

32:12

kid knows that there is a lot

32:14

of variation out there. So, resistor mode,

32:16

you know, typically these are kids who

32:18

act out, withdraw. Learning is not working

32:20

for them. They are using the voice

32:22

they have, which is not a lot

32:25

when you're a kid to let you

32:27

know that things aren't working. And it

32:29

doesn't always come out constructively, but for

32:31

some kids, that can be utterly withdrawing

32:33

into themselves. And for other kids, that

32:35

can be completely disrupting a class. And

32:37

so it really does look differently. It

32:39

really does look different in different kids.

32:41

The sort of common thread is that

32:43

there is something deep going on. We

32:46

talked a little bit earlier about neuro

32:48

divergence. There is often, you know, kind

32:50

of a real barrier to learning. There

32:52

might be something going on at home,

32:54

there might be something, there might be

32:56

something, there might be something going on

32:58

with the kids sort of friendship groups

33:00

or whatever, but there is something happening

33:02

that has got that kid sort of

33:04

turned away from learning. And the only

33:06

way they know how to sort of

33:09

let people know that things aren't working

33:11

is. acting out or again completely withdrawing.

33:13

I love how you all say there

33:15

are no problem kids. There's kids with

33:17

problems that need to be solved. That

33:19

really I think every parent probably wants

33:21

and needs to hear things like that

33:23

from people with a little bit of

33:25

research expertise and point of view. Yeah,

33:27

I mean I think I think it

33:30

is really hard to parent a kid

33:32

in resistor mode because you feel very

33:34

judged by the teachers and you definitely

33:36

feel judged by other parents. Your kid

33:38

is not doing the thing. It feels

33:40

like every other kid around you is

33:42

just naturally doing and you assume doing

33:44

really really well and effortlessly. And so

33:46

it's it is a really tricky place

33:48

and that can contribute to a bunch

33:51

of sort of negative reactions on our

33:53

part which come from a place of

33:55

love and panic. And so I do

33:57

think it is it's a really really

33:59

tricky place to be, but I, you

34:01

know, we were also incredibly reassured in

34:03

the book that these kids, when they

34:05

do get things turned around, when they

34:07

get the help, they need the support,

34:09

sort of people seeing what's going on

34:11

with them, they often leap directly to

34:14

explore mode. And that is, and the

34:16

reason for that is they do have

34:18

agency. in passenger mode and an achiever

34:20

mode, those kids don't have a lot

34:22

of agency, right? They are not, they

34:24

are kind of going along with the

34:26

flow. The achievers are going along with

34:28

the flow and doing well. Passengers are

34:30

going along with the flow and doing

34:32

well. Passengers are going along with the

34:35

flow and not doing so great often.

34:37

Sometimes they are doing great because it's

34:39

not doing so great often. Sometimes they

34:41

are doing great because it's not. not

34:43

to, you know, sort of minimize how

34:45

tricky it is in this moment, but,

34:47

you know, there is, our book has

34:49

a ton of examples of kids who

34:51

articulated to us, you know, I was

34:53

doing this thing, and it takes years

34:56

to be able to say this, right?

34:58

I was throwing my chair across the

35:00

classroom because I was so frustrated with

35:02

the fact that I was being bullied,

35:04

right? I was gay, it wasn't recognized,

35:06

I was ashamed, and so I threw

35:08

a chair. You know, that takes five

35:10

years of development to be able to

35:12

sort of say that, but in the

35:14

moment, all you see is the kid

35:16

throwing the chair, and you think that's

35:19

a bad kid, instead of thinking, what's

35:21

going on with that kid? Like, why

35:23

are they throwing that chair? Something must

35:25

be making that kid, throw a chair.

35:27

And I loved how resistor mode, like

35:29

you said, was placed in the book

35:31

next to Explorer mode, because like you

35:33

said, there's such a great rainbow leap

35:35

sometimes from one to the other. And

35:37

it's really moving, I have to say,

35:40

to read about so many of the

35:42

kids in this book and kind of

35:44

how they found their way or found

35:46

things that lit them up. And I

35:48

want to talk a little bit about

35:50

Explorer mode. I'm glad we spent so

35:52

much time on the other three, but

35:54

Explorer mode is where we want kids

35:56

to be. in Explorer mode? What is,

35:58

how is that indicated? Sure. So one

36:01

way, you know, is they can't stop

36:03

talking about something. So, you know, the

36:05

one title of this book forever was

36:07

My Day was Fine or Fine, because

36:09

it is like every parent's or it's

36:11

like every parent's or so it's not

36:13

right. How was your day? Fine. Would

36:15

you learn nothing? Like, how was a

36:17

boring? Like, you know, you kind of

36:19

get this kind of frustrating feedback loop.

36:22

And when a kid is engaged, they

36:24

will come back and be like you

36:26

are not going to believe what I

36:28

learned what I learned today about. The

36:30

jungle we read this book and oh

36:32

my God, you know, you can you

36:34

believe the conditions that were happening and

36:36

you know what I mean? There is

36:38

this sense of sort of an emotion

36:40

has been ignited and they are, you

36:42

know, fill in the blank, excited, outraged,

36:45

upset, interested, curious, you know, something has

36:47

gotten them and so one way you

36:49

know is they are spilling over. trying

36:51

to tell you about it, even when

36:53

they are teenagers and not often super

36:55

willing to talk to you about stuff.

36:57

Another way you know is they want

36:59

to dig into something. So they're asking

37:01

you for support to dig into something

37:03

that they have found. It might be

37:06

something as weird as weather patterns, right?

37:08

Like I want to learn more about

37:10

extreme weather and you're like, okay, well,

37:12

so what do we need to do

37:14

to dig into that? Like, let's start

37:16

with you too. Sit down. And if

37:18

you can get interested in the. And

37:20

it's probably new to you, right? Like

37:22

I don't know anything about extreme weather

37:24

patterns, but like, okay, let's go, like,

37:27

what could we find? That is such

37:29

a great moment to kind of communicate,

37:31

like, this is a good place to

37:33

be, like, let's, let's go deeper, right?

37:35

You can help them find shows about

37:37

it. You can help them find people

37:39

in the community who are interested in

37:41

this. Did you know that, you know,

37:43

there's a job called meteorology, like, you

37:45

know a fifth grader might not know

37:47

that well fifth grader probably does know

37:50

that but you know a younger kid

37:52

might not know that like weather patterns

37:54

have jobs associated with them or you

37:56

know you could you know you could

37:58

be a storm chaser you're all these

38:00

you can expand their world on that

38:02

so that's another way and I would

38:04

say the third thing that you would

38:06

notice is that they're not easily dissuaded.

38:08

So when you're trying to pull them

38:11

away, they're really trying to pull back

38:13

in, right? And if something happens, say

38:15

they're interested in something and there's a

38:17

setback instead of being like, well, game

38:19

over, I'm out, I'm obviously not very

38:21

good at this. It's what do I

38:23

need to get back in, right? So

38:25

there is a resilience that comes from

38:27

being in explore mode, but also in

38:29

building up those explore muscles. And I'm

38:32

guessing I'm just thinking about my own

38:34

life now. We got to lean into

38:36

the weird sometimes, right? I remember my

38:38

seven-year-old had an eye color phase where

38:40

he would draw eyes with the correct

38:42

color, different colors, and then he would

38:44

write the percentage of the population that

38:46

had each eye color, and really had

38:48

each eye color, and really had each

38:50

eye color, really, and really had each

38:53

eye color, and really, I always think

38:55

back on this phase following on his

38:57

door to his bedroom somewhere, but... You

38:59

know, you never know what's going to

39:01

kind of captivate a kid and it's

39:03

our job as people who support kids

39:05

to kind of go along with them

39:07

a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. And I

39:09

do. Like we were pretty conscious of

39:11

not picking the word passion in the

39:13

book. I think passion puts, especially with

39:16

high schoolers, I think the idea of

39:18

sort of finding your passion is really

39:20

weighty. But like leaning into interest is

39:22

very different because as you say they

39:24

change a lot and that's totally normal.

39:26

They're teenagers like they are trying on

39:28

a lot of identities and cloaks and

39:30

interests and out of that, you know,

39:32

they will sort of figure out more

39:34

about who they are and who they

39:37

want to be in the world. And

39:39

so we do kind of need to

39:41

lead. And then yeah, my kids have

39:43

had some super, super weird phases and

39:45

sometimes it can be a little disconcerting.

39:47

school every day for like a month

39:49

and it was I was like getting

39:51

embarrassing because I was kind of like

39:53

we have clothes could we wear them

39:55

and she was like no this is

39:58

my identity. Jenny tell me a little

40:00

bit about the concept of transcendent thinking

40:02

what is that? Sure transcendent thinking is

40:04

a term that was coined by a

40:06

developmental scientist named Mary Helen and Mordino

40:08

Yang. And it is the idea, it

40:10

really is the idea of meaning making.

40:12

And it is such an important part

40:14

of what teenagers are trying to do

40:16

to wire their brains, actually, to be

40:18

more efficient. But they're trying to sort

40:21

of make sense of big things in

40:23

the world and ask big questions in

40:25

the world. And that process of asking

40:27

the big questions and of trying to

40:29

make meaning of things is really important

40:31

for their brain development. And Mary Helen

40:33

would argue and we would completely agree

40:35

with her is education doesn't always lend

40:37

itself to that. There's a lot of

40:39

standards we need to get through a

40:42

lot of tests we need to take,

40:44

a lot of accountability pressure put on

40:46

schools and school systems and teachers, but

40:48

in that process we're often not asking

40:50

the why, you know, like the United

40:52

Nations was founded at this time. you

40:54

know, under this treaty to do this

40:56

thing, like, why? What was happening in

40:58

the world that we needed a United

41:00

Nations? Like, what was that about? What

41:03

were we recovering from? What did the

41:05

world need? Does the world still need

41:07

that now? How important is that? You

41:09

know, that even younger sort of, even

41:11

younger kids can do this transcendent thinking

41:13

and it's really, really important for brain

41:15

development. She's been tracking kids like in

41:17

brain scanners over time and longitudinal studies

41:19

and she's found this idea of sort

41:21

of prompting them with videos of same

41:23

alala explaining you know what it's like

41:26

to not being not to not be

41:28

able to be educated and to be

41:30

shot by the Taliban and to sort

41:32

of fight her father fighting for her

41:34

right to have an education like kids

41:36

are moved by this stuff right and

41:38

then it prompts them to in turn

41:40

ask bigger questions about themselves in their

41:42

lives so. You know it's again it's

41:44

something that parents can really play a

41:47

role in you know the kind of

41:49

why why is this happening how does

41:51

this make you feel what could we

41:53

do differently it's that sort of creative

41:55

out of the box thinking that kids

41:57

don't get to do a lot of

41:59

in school as they get older and

42:01

you know kind of. They're having to

42:03

do more content. in their learning, we

42:05

can really help with the meaning making

42:08

and sort of planting those seeds and

42:10

asking those questions and, you know, for

42:12

lack of a better term, scaffolding those

42:14

discussions, right? That really does make me

42:16

think a lot too about when you

42:18

speak about autonomy and choice in the

42:20

book, you know, I had a third

42:22

grade teacher who was incredibly innovative and

42:24

I remember distinctly that the end of

42:26

kind of a unit that we studied

42:29

instead of having everyone do the same

42:31

assignment. she regularly gave us a list

42:33

of like eight or nine mini projects

42:35

and we just got to pick the

42:37

one we thought was the most interesting

42:39

or we could come up with her

42:41

own and run it by her and

42:43

that's how we would show what we

42:45

had learned and I loved doing that

42:47

as a kid and I would pick

42:49

different things every time and the kids

42:52

who were artistic would lean towards that

42:54

and the kids who wanted to write

42:56

a paper or some kids wanted to

42:58

sing a song on a ukulele and

43:00

I remember just loving being in being

43:02

in that you get to decide something

43:04

here, what does that do for a

43:06

tween or teenager's brain or sense of

43:08

self? Yeah, so we relied pretty heavily

43:10

on the research of a guy named

43:13

John Marshall Reeve and he would say

43:15

the number one thing that you can

43:17

do with kids to help them develop

43:19

agency is to give them choice, right?

43:21

And we don't mean choose your own

43:23

adventure like go to school and you

43:25

decide what you want to study all

43:27

day every day. So it's sort of,

43:29

you know, choice within reason, but that

43:31

ability to make a choice. is really

43:34

like the best way to help a

43:36

kid feel ownership, to feel engaged, to

43:38

feel excited about the thing that they're

43:40

doing. So like that third grade teacher

43:42

was onto something because John Marshall found

43:44

he did 35 randomized control trials in

43:46

14 countries as diverse as Peru and

43:48

South Korea and he found regardless of

43:50

the kind of classroom you're in, you

43:52

know, very authoritarian or very lazy affair.

43:54

the when you give kids, when you

43:57

sort of take their perspectives and you

43:59

explain things, and when you give them

44:01

some choice, it really results in better

44:03

performance and better mental health outcomes for

44:05

kids. So like there is hard evidence

44:07

to prove that that third grade teacher

44:09

of your was super onto something and

44:11

she knew what was going on. And,

44:13

you know, it's sad as I think

44:15

as we've sort of ratcheted up standards

44:18

and kind of added more stuff, I

44:20

think there. often isn't as much time

44:22

for that as kids would like. And

44:24

again, I don't think it has to

44:26

be sort of every class every day.

44:28

You know, it was, it sounded like

44:30

in that instance, it was kids knew

44:32

to look forward to that, right? They

44:34

knew that thing coming. You could even

44:36

think about it. What's a project I'm

44:39

going to do when that's so exciting

44:41

that sense of sort of ownership and

44:43

agency? Lastly, we have a couple minutes

44:45

left to where we're out of time,

44:47

but I wonder when you envision parents

44:49

left. if you could have them just

44:51

take one thing with them, what would

44:53

it be? Because there's so much great

44:55

stuff to soak up. But what's kind

44:57

of the central hope you want parents

44:59

to walk home with? I think the

45:02

central hope that I would want parents

45:04

to hold on to is that you

45:06

make a difference. And I think it

45:08

really, when you have teenagers and you're

45:10

in the thick of it, it does

45:12

not feel like you're having a huge

45:14

amount of influence. And so you do,

45:16

and you can. And so do all

45:18

the things that you want to see

45:20

developed in your kids and more than

45:23

anything be curious because curiosity is contagious

45:25

and in curiosity is contagious. So be

45:27

curious about the world about other people

45:29

about solving problems about the content of

45:31

their learning be curious about everything and

45:33

they too will be curious and want

45:35

to ask questions. It really moved me

45:37

as a reader just how kind of

45:39

creative and resilient all the kids you

45:41

interviewed. for this book were, I mean,

45:44

every single one of them had periods

45:46

of time where things weren't going as

45:48

well as they had hoped, but they

45:50

all kind of found a really interesting

45:52

path forward, whether it was through a

45:54

decision they had made and it was

45:56

supported or an influential person in their

45:58

life that ended up helping lead them

46:00

somewhere. Were you kind of blown away

46:02

by just how kind of remarkably, remarkably

46:05

resourceful young people can be? Yes. I

46:07

mean, I definitely left this book. way

46:09

more confident and way more hopeful about

46:11

everything that is coming. I think there

46:13

is a narrative right now that sort

46:15

of young people are damaged and they're,

46:17

you know, always on their phones and,

46:19

you know, the data is that that's

46:21

how school makes them feel. That is

46:23

not how like they necessarily will be

46:25

in the world. I am very hopeful

46:28

about. their ability to drive change in

46:30

the world and their ability to, yeah,

46:32

solve problems for themselves and also for

46:34

others. I really, I really, really am.

46:36

I was kind of blown away by

46:38

the genius of young people. I really

46:40

was. My guest this hour is Jenny

46:42

Anderson, co-author of The Disengaged Teen, helping

46:44

kids learn better, feel better, and live

46:46

better. She co-wrote this book with Rebecca

46:49

Winthrop. Jenny, thank you so much for

46:51

your time. What a wonderful conversation. Thank

46:53

you so much for having me. I

46:55

loved chatting with you. Think is distributed

46:57

by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. You

46:59

can find us on Facebook and Instagram.

47:01

Once again, I'm Courtney Collins and for

47:03

Chris Boyd. Thanks so much for listening

47:05

and have a great day.