0:18

Hi, I'm Dr. Shiloh. And I'm Dr.

0:20

Scott. And this is L.A. Not so

0:23

confidential, the Forensic Psychology,

0:25

and True Crime podcast.

0:27

Each episode, we explore

0:29

the intersection of psychology,

0:31

the criminal justice system,

0:34

and entertainment. Welcome, Behind

0:36

the Couch. Today's live

0:38

stream conversation features Jason

0:40

Usri, creator of the

0:43

new podcast, Inconceivable, the

0:45

story of Tamujan Kinsu.

0:50

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to

0:52

Behind the Couch. I feel like

0:55

they changed music. What's that? I

0:57

feel like they changed that music

0:59

of that like countdown thing. Yeah,

1:01

threw me off. This was like

1:03

a little more like Jazzy, New

1:05

Agee. Yeah. I was expecting that

1:08

stream yard, stream yard thing that

1:10

was like, yeah. You guys, welcome

1:12

back. This is awesome. We'll get

1:14

into it in a second. Today

1:16

is a really special behind the

1:18

couch. After school special style. It

1:20

is a very special episode, right?

1:22

Welcome back everybody. We are well,

1:24

we're like situated in the 2025.

1:26

Like there's no going back, only

1:29

forward going through right, pushing through

1:31

the hits. The hits keep coming. I

1:33

was more sick last week than I've ever

1:35

been in my 40s. You know what? And

1:37

here's the thing is like Dr Shiloh

1:39

for anybody that they're listening.

1:42

She's never. We laugh about me

1:44

and her husband getting the man

1:46

flu, like where we're just literally

1:48

disabled for 10 days. And this

1:50

is the first time I've ever

1:53

heard you be out of work

1:55

this long due to illness. So

1:57

yeah, I've already called in. I've worked

1:59

there. eight years. I've only

2:01

called in sick twice and those

2:03

are one for each time that

2:06

I had COVID and I called

2:08

in sick twice last week. So

2:10

I just like doubled it. Well,

2:12

like you were saying that this

2:14

that your doctor told you that

2:16

this is likely the strain of

2:18

the flu that they were not

2:20

able to get this included in

2:22

the yearly flu vaccine. So you

2:24

got the strain. that wasn't covered,

2:26

right? So stand by everybody, even

2:28

if you got the flu shot.

2:30

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff

2:32

going, like I don't want to,

2:34

we won't go too far afield

2:36

there because we have a absolutely,

2:38

absolutely fascinating guest and topic to

2:40

discuss today, but there is like

2:42

everybody just with all the weirdo

2:44

changes in the government right now,

2:46

you need to take care of

2:48

yourself, starts taking your zinc. Hopefully

2:50

you're not living in one of

2:52

these red cities where they won't

2:54

allow you to wear masks. Unfortunately,

2:56

there's legislation passed in several southern

2:58

states where you're not allowed to

3:00

wear masks in public. And they're

3:03

doing it as a public safety

3:05

because you might be a bad

3:07

person about to commit a crime,

3:09

but you're wearing a in 95

3:11

mask to just to conceal yourself.

3:13

Yes. All right. Yes. There you

3:15

go. morning. So just as a

3:17

heads up, we have a meet

3:19

up in LA Friday, April 11th,

3:21

2025 again, in person, real life,

3:23

meet up in LA, Friday, April

3:25

11th, 2025. Stay tuned for more

3:27

details and we hope you can

3:29

make it because we always have

3:31

a blast when we do these

3:33

Yeah, April will be here before

3:35

we know it details location to

3:37

come even though we think we

3:39

know what that is it will

3:41

be in downtown And if anyone's

3:43

coming in from out of town

3:45

you want to know like a

3:47

decent place to stay or something

3:49

if you're going to be in

3:51

downtown Hit us up, let us

3:53

know and we'll definitely still you

3:55

in the right direction Okay, so

3:57

before we get to our guest

3:59

we are going to welcome our

4:02

newest patron members so At the

4:04

associate level we have, my name

4:06

is not Rick, we have Emil

4:08

or Emily and... And we have

4:10

Mar, we also have Adrian, Karen,

4:12

and Jason B is back. So

4:14

thank you guys so much at

4:16

the associate level. And then we

4:18

have two new doctorate level, patron

4:20

members, who are Courtney L, then

4:22

Tricia C. So we are so

4:24

grateful for you guys, especially, you

4:26

know, it's been quite a few

4:28

people here in the last six

4:30

weeks or so. So thank you.

4:32

And don't forget if you join

4:34

at the doctoral level. Every month,

4:36

you're entered into a merch giveaway.

4:38

And since it's January, everyone is

4:40

back in the running. So our

4:42

January winner is Lauren H. Yay,

4:44

our friend Lauren, Lauren, who is

4:46

a doctor-level patron member, very active

4:48

on our Discord. She's awesome. We

4:50

love her, so congrats, Lauren. We'll

4:52

just get in contact with you,

4:54

see if you've won before and

4:56

what we can send you, or

4:58

if you're ready for some new

5:01

merch. So thank you guys. You

5:03

guys, right. Just to tag a

5:05

little bit, one more thing on,

5:07

although I've been accused of yap,

5:09

yapping, and behind the couch, but

5:11

that's okay. Again, you guys, I

5:13

say this all the time, and

5:15

I'm not going to stop saying

5:17

it because I still am just

5:19

blown away seven years, seven and

5:21

a half years after doing this

5:23

project, that we have so many

5:25

wonderful patron members that continue to

5:27

join. And also, like, Shado is

5:29

just saying before we started today

5:31

that, like, we just got all

5:33

these patrons, like, we just got

5:35

all these patrons, like, We kind

5:37

of go, well, where were you?

5:39

And they're like, but who cares?

5:41

But they're all there, marathoning our

5:43

episodes. It's wonderful. We're getting comments

5:45

on episodes literally from seven years

5:47

ago, which is amazing. It is.

5:49

And hello to Teresa, hello, Catherine.

5:51

Akiko wants to know if the

5:53

meetup's going to be at the

5:55

Hotel Cecil. Maybe I could help

5:58

pull that off. I don't know.

6:00

I know a lot of disinfectant

6:02

wipes. I promise. All right, I'm

6:04

going to bring on our guest

6:06

as you read his book. Yes,

6:08

let's make sure his face is

6:10

showing so he can be appropriately

6:12

embarrassed as we sing these phrases,

6:14

right? So welcome Jason. Jason Usri

6:16

is a multi-time Emmy nominated broadcast

6:18

media veteran. Can't believe he's a

6:20

veteran with that gorgeous skin of

6:22

his. He's had three movies produced

6:24

with one now currently in post-production

6:26

and others are currently in development.

6:28

He is a quadruple threat in

6:30

all of the areas and in

6:32

an area of the country that

6:34

needs to start developing its movie

6:36

production capabilities. So, go Savannah Go.

6:38

He is the editor of some

6:40

of your favorite podcasts, including L.A.

6:42

Not So confidential. He's the founder

6:44

of ear-called L.L.C. a company that

6:46

he's been working to build into

6:48

a multimedia storytelling empire. He's well

6:50

on his way. We're huge fans.

6:52

He's an editor, consultant, creator, storyteller,

6:54

journalist, most importantly a friend, but

6:57

also somebody with the level of

6:59

experience that I believe took LA

7:01

not so confidential to a completely

7:03

different level of production. And this

7:05

is a guy who is so

7:07

invested in what he does. I

7:09

don't know how he is as

7:11

multitasker as he is, but he

7:13

knows our voices so well that

7:15

when we're recording something at 9

7:17

p.m.m. at night and we are

7:19

dead and we're just generating gobbledygook.

7:21

He makes it sound like we're

7:23

smarter than we are. So Jason,

7:25

welcome and thank you so much.

7:27

You guys are amazing. I mean,

7:29

I can't even say how great

7:31

that introduction is. I'm very, very

7:33

grateful that you think that of

7:35

me. Well, you're also obviously our

7:37

brother here. Yeah, I know. I

7:39

know. This is family now. So,

7:41

but I am, I'm very grateful

7:43

that you both have allowed me

7:45

to join you in your project

7:47

and grateful to tell stories that

7:49

are important to people and that's

7:51

sort of my So I appreciate

7:53

you both and I love you

7:56

both. So thank you so much

7:58

for having me on here tonight.

8:00

Yeah, this is fun. And we

8:02

need to all stay focused, make

8:04

sure we don't just turn this

8:06

into a like, hey, catch up,

8:08

love fast that it could be.

8:10

And that it should be that

8:12

we should be scheduling actually, because

8:14

it's been a while since we've

8:16

all been together. Okay. So let's

8:18

kind of start at the beginning.

8:20

We'll back way up. And if

8:22

you can just quickly with all

8:24

of those things that you do.

8:26

editing podcasts in the first place

8:28

and then it really seems like

8:30

you I mean by the time

8:32

at least you know we got

8:34

to know you and then after

8:36

you were like the go-to guy

8:38

in true crime how did all

8:40

of that even end up happening?

8:42

Well a lot of it started

8:44

with you guys you know so

8:46

my first project in podcasting was

8:48

a show called End of Watch

8:50

with Bootsy and Sal which was

8:52

focused on two former law enforcement

8:55

professionals. who recognized that mental health

8:57

was an issue. I started working

8:59

with Rebecca Sebastian when she had

9:01

dialogue and she has a lot

9:03

of projects now, but I'd work

9:05

with her and she recommended you

9:07

guys to talk to us on

9:09

that show. And then, of course,

9:11

you guys gratefully and graciously came

9:13

on to that show and provided

9:15

some mental health insight from a

9:17

law enforcement perspective. then we obviously

9:19

connected from that and a wonderful

9:21

partnership emerged from that but it

9:23

was initially my first and continues

9:25

to be my I think both

9:27

of you would enjoy this my

9:29

my dream podcast is to do

9:31

a show called Food and Spirits

9:33

which is going around to quote

9:35

haunted restaurants bed and breakfast you

9:37

know bars and things like that.

9:39

having their food and talking about

9:41

their haunted history. Is there much

9:43

of that in Savannah at all?

9:45

No, I mean, just a little

9:47

bit, all around this area. And,

9:49

you know, before podcasting was around,

9:52

I had sort of outlined a

9:54

book that I wanted to write

9:56

to do that. I didn't have

9:58

the resources to do it, but

10:00

it was sort of a dream

10:02

of mine, and still is. But

10:04

that was sort of the thing,

10:06

and when Kevin Grogan, who is

10:08

Bootsy on End of Washford Bootsy

10:10

and South, he came to me,

10:12

we talked about his book and

10:14

his project. We were talking about

10:16

writing a screenplay for it. He

10:18

was working on the screenplay. He

10:20

asked me to come on and

10:22

help him because I worked on

10:24

other screenplays. And he also told

10:26

me he said, I've got this

10:28

guy named Lou Valozi. We want

10:30

to do a podcast about mental

10:32

health. And so you guys were

10:34

a natural fit to come and

10:36

join that show. And so grateful

10:38

that you did because it blossomed

10:40

into more than just you guys

10:42

being guests on our show, but

10:44

the two of you becoming to

10:46

the. people that I trust the

10:48

most in the world and I'm

10:51

so grateful that that happened. And

10:53

were booty and saljust people you

10:55

kind of knew well obviously you

10:57

knew Kevin more but just kind

10:59

of from circles in Savannah or

11:01

I mean how did you get

11:03

kind of hooked into really like

11:05

you know a bit of a

11:07

law enforcement world in that sense?

11:09

It's funny because so I reached

11:11

out to Kevin so I work

11:13

in local television here in Savannah

11:15

you know I'm storyteller so like

11:17

I like talking to people about.

11:19

the way they tell stories. I'm

11:21

super interested in that. And I

11:23

reached out to him. I'd missed

11:25

a press event that he was

11:27

doing for his book at the

11:29

time. And so I reached out

11:31

to him and I said, hey,

11:33

I'd love to talk to you

11:35

about your storytelling and those sorts

11:37

of things. Well, what ended up

11:39

happening was that so I'd worked

11:41

on this project called Deadwater with

11:43

a director named Deadwater. one of

11:45

the managers that worked with a

11:47

number of the actors on that

11:50

film, low-budget film, but worked with

11:52

a number of the actors on

11:54

that film happened to be connected

11:56

to Kevin through another person who

11:58

he managed. And so I walk

12:00

into this. little pizzeria, you know,

12:02

at 1.30 on a Friday afternoon,

12:04

and he basically told me I've

12:06

investigated you already. And they say you're okay.

12:08

Yeah, they say you're okay. And that was

12:10

a really, it was a great, it was

12:13

a great thing. And, you know, Kevin and

12:15

I are super tight. He's probably mad. He

12:17

wanted me to go to the hockey game

12:19

tonight, but I couldn't do that because I'm

12:22

here. He and I are very, very tight.

12:24

He's one of my best friends in the

12:26

world. But that sort of started that relationship

12:29

there. And then he invited me to meet

12:31

Lou. And Lou is a, so Kevin, just

12:33

for background, Kevin just for background, Kevin was.

12:35

a patrol officer in Savannah. He was

12:38

a former MP. He was at the

12:40

the Baghdad bombing. I don't

12:42

remember all the details of

12:44

that. He was a patrol

12:46

officer in Savannah. They became

12:48

a homicide detective and then

12:50

he started working on special

12:52

operations and met Lou Velozi

12:55

and Lou. These are retired

12:57

undercover ATF agent who operated

12:59

primarily or the thing he's

13:01

known for is storefront operations,

13:03

which is when the ATF

13:05

set up sort of fake

13:07

storefronts to entice these

13:10

were places that would

13:12

entice high crime individuals

13:14

to come in to

13:16

do things that they might not

13:19

do in the public right

13:21

so and in those cases

13:23

he took a number of

13:26

crime guns off the street

13:28

narcotics that sorts of things

13:30

and both of their careers

13:33

ended sort of unceremoniously, they

13:35

are very open about those

13:37

things, which is why they are so open

13:40

to talk about the mental

13:42

health stigma that occurs in

13:44

law enforcement in general. And

13:46

I really respected that. And so

13:48

fortunately I was able to talk

13:51

with them, which opened up a

13:53

whole new world of learning about

13:55

law enforcement in a way that

13:57

I wouldn't never have had the

13:59

opportunity. to. And then, you know,

14:01

during that time I had reached out

14:03

to Rebecca and we had started working

14:06

together some and then she introduced me

14:08

to you guys and then to Tim

14:10

and Lance from Crosspace and Missing and

14:13

it just sort of worked out that

14:15

like there's just an enormous amount of

14:17

support and wonderful people in this network,

14:20

you know, with relationships that we built

14:22

with each other. And it just worked

14:24

out that I got some very fortunate

14:26

opportunities from that. So that's how it

14:29

kind of started in. And then at

14:31

some point I figured out I wanted

14:33

to do stuff on my own. And

14:36

it's just, I guess that's just the

14:38

natural progression. Sounds like you really hooked

14:40

in with, I mean, not only are

14:42

you gifted as a foundation, but you

14:45

hooked in with some really interesting people

14:47

at the very beginning. We can't say

14:49

enough good things about Rebecca or Bootsey

14:52

and Sal and their whole production. Those

14:54

guys really did a great job. But

14:56

you know, you had been already generating

14:59

your own screen plays and working. I

15:01

mean, you also work in media as

15:03

well in the Savannah area and you

15:05

have been for years. but when did

15:08

you know that this was a path

15:10

that you wanted to follow aside from

15:12

your day job which was still in

15:15

the industry ish right and then give

15:17

us the origin story of your really

15:19

your first I believe your first big

15:21

solo project which was Santa may be

15:24

a criminal yeah I you know I've

15:26

always wanted to tell stories and the

15:28

The cool thing is that I had

15:31

thought about that project for a while,

15:33

just sort of as a joke, but

15:35

you guys know that you, two of

15:38

you, the two of you, and Rebecca

15:40

and Michelle Cas, were on a text

15:42

message with me the night that Seed

15:44

was formed. So we are the origin

15:47

story as well. You guys are. the

15:49

origin story like that you know I

15:51

you know that's why you're mentioned in

15:54

every every episode that I release and

15:56

every other one I'll release as soon

15:58

as I can get back to that

16:00

part but no like before you really

16:03

really did inspire me to do it

16:05

because we talked about on a text

16:07

thread one night we were making jokes

16:10

about you know things and I said

16:12

this makes me want to start my

16:14

Santa is a criminal podcast, I call

16:17

it Santa is a criminal podcast, and

16:19

you know, over time it became Santa

16:21

may be a criminal, and you know,

16:23

we talked through the things, and you

16:26

know, Michelle wrote charging documents up, and

16:28

you know, I talked to you guys

16:30

about the psychology of things, and you

16:33

know, I love that project so much,

16:35

and it was really interesting because that

16:37

project was something that evolved, because initially

16:39

it was supposed to be supposed to

16:42

be Santa Claus as a suspect on

16:44

Dateline in the South and then after

16:46

the second season when you know initially

16:49

when we talked because I was very

16:51

reticent about doing it I said you

16:53

know I have to find actors to

16:56

do this and you guys were like

16:58

we'll do it you know which was

17:00

great because it was it was during

17:02

the pandemic and you're like we'll do

17:05

it will be boy and so it

17:07

started out very small. Please give us

17:09

something to do. Yeah. Right and we

17:12

started out very very small and like

17:14

I was not writing a whole lot

17:16

of characters and things like that and

17:18

then people started like enjoying it which

17:21

was really nice and and then in

17:23

the middle of the seasons season one

17:25

of season two people started asking me

17:28

to be on the show which was

17:30

really cool and. suggesting storylines were just

17:32

like, oh, they were invested, they're invested

17:35

in this, this is kind of neat.

17:37

And so season two turned into a

17:39

little more heartfelt and things that are

17:41

more in tune with who I am.

17:44

I enjoy doing the true crime stuff,

17:46

but that stuff is heavy. And I

17:48

want to do. something that had a

17:51

little bit more hope and comedy, you

17:53

know, and I necessarily, it was comedic

17:55

in the first season, but you know,

17:57

wanted to have something that had a

18:00

little more heart in it than just

18:02

like, you know, the specific true crime

18:04

trophy stuff that I kind of wandered

18:07

into. And so yeah, so I had

18:09

the opportunity to work with a lot

18:11

of true crime podcasters that really, really,

18:14

every single one of them, both of

18:16

you included, were So gracious and giving

18:18

of your time with it when I

18:20

wasn't asking for anything just for you

18:23

to kind of play a character and

18:25

It was a like it will probably

18:27

be the grace thing I ever do

18:30

I I love it. I love the

18:32

show so much and and I love

18:34

it so much more because I got

18:37

to do with my friends and yeah,

18:39

I don't know how many more more

18:41

of those projects I get to do

18:43

You know, without that, but I look

18:46

at it as I mean, we had

18:48

a blast doing it and it has

18:50

such great legs. And I think of

18:53

it as the, you know, one of

18:55

the first rungs on your ladder as

18:57

you continue to climb up and do

18:59

these things because you're building such a

19:02

great network. I mean, it is a

19:04

little bit ironic that you were planning

19:06

to use. Santa Maybe to get away

19:09

from the darkness of this genre, but

19:11

that's kind of turned around recently with

19:13

something else that is becoming sort of

19:16

another stationary leg of your content creation

19:18

career missing in a moment. Tell us

19:20

what's going on with that project and

19:22

how it came to be. Yeah, it's

19:25

interesting to bring that up because so.

19:27

You know, I was doing Santa Maybe

19:29

and a number of people came to

19:32

me and said, oh, like you should

19:34

do another project and do some like

19:36

real true crime because with Santa, maybe

19:38

it was such a niche show and

19:41

in niche shows like that, you know,

19:43

you don't get a ton of, I

19:45

mean, we had to help the good

19:48

audience for that, but people were. saying

19:50

like you need to get your voice

19:52

out you know sort of bigger right

19:55

and I said I don't know that

19:57

I want to do that that's I'm

19:59

very I'm sort of uncomfortable with that

20:01

like I do the editing for a

20:04

lot of shows and you know I

20:06

hear all those things but I don't

20:08

know if I'm I don't know if

20:11

I'm capable of that I said but

20:13

I will you know I kind of

20:15

like agree that I will do some

20:17

things and just sort of test the

20:20

water so I did a few sort

20:22

of test episodes on on the Santa

20:24

maybe feed feed and then I got

20:27

really interested in missing persons cases and

20:29

the first case I got interested in

20:31

and it's unfortunately right now it's the

20:34

only case that's released on the missing

20:36

in a moment feed but it's the

20:38

case of Morgan Nick and I do

20:40

have a number of cases research now

20:43

it's just a matter of me finishing

20:45

I've got another one mostly edited so

20:47

I so that that project will continue

20:50

it's just a matter of finding the

20:52

time I'm a one I'm a one-person

20:54

studio at this point. I'm trying to

20:56

get that to be not a one-person

20:59

studio. But yeah, I actually, well, I

21:01

predict pretty, I feel pretty solid in

21:03

the prediction that you're going to be

21:06

expanding to, you know, partners and employees

21:08

pretty soon. And I think one of

21:10

the reasons is because of the work,

21:13

this unbelievable work that you're doing on

21:15

this current case. And can you, because

21:17

I want to be aware of the

21:19

time and I because... I want to

21:22

spend as much time as we can

21:24

on this absolutely fascinating case that you

21:26

have, that you've been putting into content

21:29

and how did you come to know

21:31

about Timogen's case and help us understand,

21:33

help your audience understand how you decided

21:35

to tell this story, what pulled you

21:38

in, and if you can, to give

21:40

us an overview, I mean I can

21:42

send people to the Wikipedia page, but

21:45

that only barely scratches the surface of

21:47

this really miscarriage of justice. Yeah,

21:53

yeah, so I first learned about

21:55

Timage's case on podcasts. I started

21:57

listening to podcasts. I heard it

21:59

on. on a few. And it

22:01

was a case that I could

22:04

not believe. The sort of the

22:06

ever view is that Scott Mackleam,

22:08

I always try to mention his

22:10

name, that's the thing that sort

22:12

of gets missed in a lot

22:14

of these wrongful conviction cases. Nobody

22:17

remembers the victim's name. Scott Mackleam,

22:19

he was 20 years old, he

22:21

was murdered in the St. Clair

22:23

County Community College parking lot SC4

22:25

on November 5th, 1986. The man

22:27

that was... arrested and then subsequently

22:29

convicted for the crime, was named

22:32

Fred Freeman. Fred later changed his

22:34

name to Timmaging Kinsu. The link

22:36

between Scott and Fred was that

22:38

they dated the same girl about

22:40

five to six months apart. Scott's

22:42

girlfriend dated Timogen for a few

22:44

weeks in the spring of 1986.

22:47

He left and moved from Port

22:49

Huron, Michigan, which is where St.

22:51

Clair County Community College is, to

22:53

the upper peninsula. And I drove

22:55

that route. I've been to Michigan

22:57

twice to investigate this case. That's

23:00

about 435, 450 miles between the

23:02

two spots. Timogen or Fred at

23:04

the time was alibied up north

23:06

as it's talked about there. before,

23:08

during, and after the crime in

23:10

a time span that is inconceivable,

23:12

which is the name of my

23:15

podcast plug, to have committed the

23:17

crime. There are a number of

23:19

speculations around this case. I've gone

23:21

so deep into this. People say

23:23

you go into a rabbit hole

23:25

in these cases. I don't think

23:28

it's a rabbit hole as much

23:30

as I think it's a whirlpool.

23:32

Because when you use... It is.

23:34

You go into it and you're

23:36

sort of whipped around. You know,

23:38

you're searching one thing and then

23:40

something else happens and you're whipped

23:43

around to the other side. And

23:45

it is... is very striking to

23:47

look at facts that should have

23:49

been really, really run down. We

23:51

have a number of things that

23:53

we're trying to run down right

23:56

now and have those things sort

23:58

of shut back in your face.

24:00

And, you know, either by the

24:02

state, the prosecutor's office. there there

24:04

are just a number of things

24:06

I did not expect to get

24:08

like this was not my jam

24:11

you know I was I walked

24:13

into this like I'm the Santa

24:15

guy you know I walk into

24:17

this like just like so naive

24:19

and well just make this all

24:21

happy and all that stuff and

24:23

it's not all happy right and

24:26

so yeah so I found out

24:28

about it from from podcast and

24:30

about just under a year ago

24:32

I'd followed the case for about

24:34

three years and Timmagen's wife, she

24:36

was an advocate and then became

24:39

his wife. They ended up getting

24:41

married. He had a wife who

24:43

was his advocate for a number

24:45

of years who passed away from

24:47

cancer while he was incarcerated and

24:49

Paula Kinsu, she reached out to

24:51

me about Santa may be a

24:54

criminal and said she loved the

24:56

show and she asked if I

24:58

would because he couldn't listen to

25:00

the... the podcast in prison asked

25:02

if I would send a script.

25:04

And so I afforded her a

25:07

script, a PDF that she could

25:09

print just to take to him

25:11

in the prison. And then a

25:13

few months after, or I actually

25:15

might have been a year after

25:17

that actually, but you know, you

25:19

sometimes you find a story that

25:22

just sort of like, it doesn't,

25:24

like this sounds so trite and

25:26

I hate to say it this

25:28

way, but. Like you don't choose

25:30

a story, the story chooses you

25:32

sort of thing. And that's sort

25:35

of the way I feel about

25:37

this case because I say this

25:39

all the time to people. I'm

25:41

not a wrongful conviction warrior. I'm

25:43

not, I think most of the

25:45

people that are in prison earn

25:47

their way there. I'm not saying

25:50

they can't be rehabilitated. or anything

25:52

like that, but the administration of

25:54

justice in this country is far

25:56

better than it is the most.

25:58

And I trust the system here

26:00

a lot more than I would

26:03

other places. And the thing that's

26:05

striking to me is that this

26:07

sort of case can go in

26:09

this way and there being no

26:11

explanation to it. I mean, everything

26:13

about this case to me is

26:15

to me. absolutely mind-boggling. I wanted

26:18

to jump in and sort of

26:20

validate what you're saying. I've spoken

26:22

to you briefly. Shiloh has heard

26:24

me talk about a case for

26:26

years that I have very strong

26:28

feelings about as well. Like I

26:30

just... doesn't add up for me.

26:33

And it happens to be someone

26:35

that I previously worked with. Like,

26:37

and yet there's also because I

26:39

work in this field and because

26:41

I have an intersection with the

26:43

legal system, I'm like, but what

26:46

if, but what if? And yet

26:48

when there's this overwhelming level of

26:50

evidence and I think something that

26:52

is remarkable about your particular project

26:54

and this is why I really

26:56

want everyone to listen to it

26:58

is that, you know, you just

27:01

laid the basis for. compared to

27:03

the majority of the world, the

27:05

American legal system is pretty solid.

27:07

And yet, there are huge holes.

27:09

And most of those holes happen

27:11

because of individual personalities or structures,

27:14

whether it's, I'm not gonna say

27:16

crooked, but it's about, you know,

27:18

attorneys are there to do their

27:20

job. Their job is a very

27:22

narrow focus. which we don't conceive

27:24

of it is very focused in

27:26

some ways, but those of us

27:29

that are on the outside. And

27:31

I think that's one of the

27:33

things that's kind of great about

27:35

responsible content creation is someone like

27:37

you that is really stepping back

27:39

and looking at a huge broad

27:42

perspective, all the factors that may

27:44

be. are not what some law

27:46

enforcement agencies want to do. Some

27:48

people want to, like, they want

27:50

to wrap it up and be

27:52

done with it and move on,

27:54

right? Yes, yeah, and I would

27:57

say that, I mean, just like

27:59

anything that's managed by people, they're

28:01

going to be those holes, right?

28:03

From my standpoint, like I recognize

28:05

what you said that every individual

28:07

working on this case, you know,

28:09

and I'm not, I don't throw

28:12

shade at anybody, that that's a

28:14

big part of my podcast. I

28:16

could easily try to like. demonize

28:18

any number of people on both

28:20

sides. I'm going to tell the

28:22

truth, you know, and I've made

28:25

it very clear to every person

28:27

that's relevant in the case, I've

28:29

made it clear that I'm going

28:31

to tell the truth, is what

28:33

I see, and I'm going to

28:35

be very honest and I'm willing

28:37

to be wrong about those things,

28:40

but it's going to be from

28:42

my perspective, and I'm going to

28:44

be giving my story and working

28:46

on this case. The other part

28:48

of that is it may be

28:50

a situation where we have dealing

28:53

with these things and things don't

28:55

go right, but we do have

28:57

to continue to look at the

28:59

truth and we do have to

29:01

continue to follow these lanes down

29:03

and look at everything. And I

29:05

think I've told you guys this

29:08

and our text messages is that

29:10

I'm walking into this like a

29:12

toddler. Like I'm just like asking.

29:14

every question because I don't have

29:16

those blinders on. I don't have

29:18

the restrictions that, you know, and

29:21

I respect the restrictions are there

29:23

for necessary reasons and I get

29:25

that, but I don't have those

29:27

because I am not a litigator.

29:29

I am not an attorney. I'm

29:31

not a law enforcement professional. Like

29:33

I just get to go ask

29:36

whatever I want to ask, right?

29:38

And a lot of times in

29:40

doing that I have gotten absolute

29:42

brick walls in my face. and

29:44

I've had to try to like

29:46

hammer at them and those sorts

29:48

of things. Sometimes I've gotten a

29:51

hole in it, sometimes I haven't.

29:53

But that's sort of like, I

29:55

think that's the important. thing about

29:57

what I'm trying to do and

29:59

what so many content creators who

30:01

have this very very righteous feeling

30:04

about a specific case are trying

30:06

to do is they're just asking

30:08

questions because why not like why

30:10

haven't we seen the answer because

30:12

the questions I ask I know

30:14

the case the questions I'm asking

30:16

are questions that have not been

30:19

answered through the official documentation so

30:21

far as I've seen. That's sort

30:23

of our only avenue right now

30:25

is to try to follow that

30:27

path. And I think that's so

30:29

important that there's no problem asking

30:32

questions and not getting a soapbox.

30:34

I don't want to get a

30:36

scot take here, but but the

30:38

share a soapbox with someone please

30:40

join me, knock me off. But

30:42

you know, the thing I think

30:44

about the, you know, education system

30:47

that have a problem with is

30:49

that we train children to answer

30:51

questions. We do not. teach them

30:53

how to ask the questions. And

30:55

so that's a thing for me.

30:57

And that's something that I've really

31:00

learned here, because that's not my

31:02

discipline, but I'm learning that now.

31:04

And it's really, really, it's amazing

31:06

to see the things that you

31:08

can kind of find in the

31:10

avenues you can open up if

31:12

you actually followed that path. So

31:15

this, essentially, your formula is that

31:17

this will be unfolding in realish

31:19

time. Is that the aim to

31:21

this? Well, I mean, it took

31:23

me about 30 drafts to write

31:25

the first episode, and I'm looking

31:27

at approaching this in the way

31:30

that's very different than any other

31:32

podcast has done it. I look

31:34

at this, it's sort of dark

31:36

poetry in a way, it's sort

31:38

of Shakespearean in a way. And

31:40

so there will be, you know,

31:43

literary things I pepper throughout the

31:45

series to reinforce. what I'm going

31:47

through. Because part of it is

31:49

my point of view from doing

31:51

the story. Obviously, we will go

31:53

through the trial, we will go

31:55

through the evidence. I sent to

31:58

you both the, you know, the

32:00

photo lineup, which is pretty prejudicial

32:02

and how my seven-year-old picked Timogenel

32:04

that lineup in four seconds. Right.

32:06

And that was just a very

32:08

unscientific test. It was a test.

32:11

And just to see that was

32:13

very, very interesting to me. And

32:15

I appreciate you both agreeing to

32:17

come on the show and talk

32:19

about some of the psychological things

32:21

because that's the other thing I'm

32:23

doing. I'm talking to you guys,

32:26

I'm talking to legal experts, I'm

32:28

talking to other private investigators, I'm

32:30

talking to advocates, I'm talking to

32:32

a bunch of different people that

32:34

surround this case. I'm trying to

32:36

talk to the family of Scott

32:39

Maclam. I want to know who

32:41

he is. The striking and discouraging

32:43

thing about this case for me

32:45

is, like I said at the

32:47

beginning, Scott gets forgotten in this

32:49

a lot. And the first time

32:51

I went to Michigan, I ended

32:54

up going to Crosswell and I...

32:56

I visited his grave and I

32:58

knelt at his grave and I

33:00

said a prayer for him and

33:02

you know spent some time because

33:04

I thought that was really important.

33:06

It was for me, I don't

33:09

know if it is for anything

33:11

else, but it was important for

33:13

me to take on the project

33:15

and grant him the respect that

33:17

if I'm saying that I have

33:19

questions about this conviction, I need

33:22

to at least spend some time

33:24

with him. And so I had

33:26

a chance to do that and

33:28

my... focus is the truth. And

33:30

I have my own current theories

33:32

about what happened on that day.

33:34

It is going to be very,

33:37

very hard. It's been almost 40

33:39

years to prove any of those

33:41

things. Yeah. There are things that

33:43

are less hard to prove and

33:45

those things will... be examined very

33:47

thoroughly. And I would also say

33:50

too that, and I've said this,

33:52

I have an FBI consultant who

33:54

I work with on this case,

33:56

and I have called her repeatedly.

33:58

And she talks me off the

34:00

ledge sometimes because, and I have

34:02

told this to Timogen as well,

34:05

I am trying to convict you.

34:07

I want, like, because from my

34:09

standpoint, people would think, I walked

34:11

into this really biased to his

34:13

innocence. And while people will say,

34:15

well, then you're going to tell

34:18

a very slanted podcast whose innocence,

34:20

I now say, like, I came

34:22

on a blank slate and that

34:24

gave me that opinion. Now, I'm

34:26

the guy that's trying to, like,

34:28

beat up that opinion. And so

34:30

I'm really, really trying to approach

34:33

this as like, like, a real,

34:35

real honest search for what happened

34:37

that day. And that means, and

34:39

I've told Timmage in this also,

34:41

that means some things are gonna

34:43

look ugly for you. You gotta

34:45

be okay with that. And he

34:48

told me, I trust you, do

34:50

everything, like say everything. And at

34:52

this point, I mean, we're talking

34:54

1985. That's insane. It's unbelievable. It's

34:56

inconsiderable. And that brings up one

34:58

of the questions in the audience

35:01

right now from Tool Girl. She's

35:03

saying with the case that old,

35:05

are there issues with the availability

35:07

of witnesses and the reliability of

35:09

their memory? At least from your

35:11

perspective and what you're doing now,

35:13

is that an issue? Yes. So

35:16

we have private investigators up north

35:18

and so the area that this

35:20

case, the murder happened in Port

35:22

Huron. Timmaging's alibi in Rock and

35:24

Escanaba, which is again about between

35:26

420 and 450 miles away because

35:29

they're about 28 miles away from

35:31

each other, right? So Timmaging's an

35:33

alibi at 1.30 a.m. on November

35:35

5th, 2.30 a.m. He's alibied at

35:37

9 a.m. and he's alibited 1130

35:39

in that area, right? 9 a.m.

35:41

is in Rock. Everything else is

35:44

in Escanama. So yes, the RPI's

35:46

have looked into some of these

35:48

alibi witnesses who were up there

35:50

at the time. And yeah, of

35:52

course, many of them are much

35:54

older. They don't remember. We do

35:57

have a bunch of alibi witnesses.

35:59

So Timogen was... you know he

36:01

was 23 at the time of

36:03

the murder and he hung out

36:05

with a lot of younger people

36:07

so many of those younger people

36:09

who stand by their alibis to

36:12

this day those that we have

36:14

access to and who are alive

36:16

but it and all of them

36:18

do like none of them have

36:20

changed their stories at all but

36:22

yeah many of the people that

36:24

we had that we hoped that

36:27

we could bring on our deceased

36:29

and though that is a really

36:31

big challenge. Other things that are

36:33

a big challenges are the availability

36:35

of evidence. You know, so there's

36:37

very little evidence of the crime

36:40

scene. So Scott was shot with

36:42

a shotgun. He was shot in

36:44

his lower left side. The shell

36:46

went through his body. It was

36:48

close enough that there was wadding

36:50

in his left lower side. It

36:52

was, but it was far enough

36:55

that the pellets did not exit

36:57

his body. They ended up under

36:59

his... the right arm pit, those

37:01

were removed in the autopsy. So

37:03

one of the prevailing theories at

37:05

the time was this could have

37:08

been done through a car. Well,

37:10

I don't know that that is

37:12

possible because I think you would

37:14

have to shoot through the door

37:16

frame in that situation. So what

37:18

I believe happened is that Scott

37:20

knew was killer. Scott also parked

37:23

in a separate parking lot that

37:25

he normally parked in that he

37:27

was ticketed in before, which was,

37:29

so there were two different parking

37:31

lots at the time, that students

37:33

parked in one, faculty, typically parked

37:36

another. He parked in a separate

37:38

parking lot, he normally parked in

37:40

on that day. So my belief,

37:42

not to get to the end

37:44

of my story, because it could

37:46

change, I think you might find

37:48

out in 20 episodes, like I

37:51

completely believe it was aliens or

37:53

something crazy. But my belief is

37:55

that he knew his killer and

37:57

he expected the meeting to take

37:59

place and that this was a

38:01

hit because if the round was

38:03

fired from low, I think it

38:06

was hidden. It was raised up

38:08

to remain concealed. Was fired. and

38:10

Scott died there on that cold

38:12

Michigan parking a lot. And the

38:14

other things at the scene, his

38:16

books were placed on his carhood

38:19

as Jim Bagg was placed and

38:21

his shoes were placed on his

38:23

on his bag there next to

38:25

his car and his key was

38:27

in the door. So I do

38:29

believe that there was some sort

38:31

of meeting that was set to

38:34

take place that morning. and he

38:36

knew his killer and the other

38:38

thing to quickly I'll say is

38:40

there was an amnition box it

38:42

was found nearby it was found

38:44

by a student whom I've chatted

38:47

with as well it was not

38:49

found by police it was found

38:51

the next thing was the next

38:53

day had a fingerprint on it

38:55

that was tested against Timogen and

38:57

it was negative to Timogen I've

38:59

been repeatedly asking for that to

39:02

be retested it was tested in

39:04

a face in 2008 I'm repeatedly

39:06

asking to get any sort of

39:08

report so we can get on

39:10

that as well. That's the only

39:12

evidence that we have that seems

39:15

to align with the crime from

39:17

that day. The other things are

39:19

eyewitness and no one saw the

39:21

crime take place by the way.

39:23

People have people saw cars move

39:25

away from the scene. The photo

39:27

line up I reference there was

39:30

a a car that was moving

39:32

away from the area that the

39:34

crime took place with a white

39:36

male with facial hair who was

39:38

wearing a ski mask. that was

39:40

pulled to his forehead. And I

39:42

don't know if you've been to

39:45

Michigan, but that's what a lot

39:47

of people look like. And the

39:49

other thing that really in terms

39:51

of the other two things that

39:53

really impacted the jury when they

39:55

were polled was there was a

39:58

jailhouse informant named Philip Joplin and

40:00

a man named Booker Brown were

40:02

placed in a holding cell with

40:04

Timogen. for a brief period of

40:06

time before being transported to different

40:08

facilities. Philip Joplin said that Tim

40:10

and Jen slash Fred said that

40:13

he killed Scott and he would

40:15

never be he would never be

40:17

proven. Booker Brown also testified that

40:19

he never said that he only

40:21

proclaimed his innocence. The jury believed

40:23

Philip Joplin later recanted years later

40:26

and said that he was. He

40:28

was provided inducements. He was he

40:30

was promised a placement in a

40:32

residential housing program. So that's why

40:34

Philip Joplin says he did that.

40:36

He's deceased. I just want to

40:38

jump in here, right? Because this

40:41

to me, talk about inconceivable. The

40:43

idea, first of all, as as

40:45

tool girl in the comments, is

40:47

talking about jailhouse informants, rarely reliable.

40:49

Right. But here we have even

40:51

more of a rarefied. This is

40:54

a somebody, it's not somebody that

40:56

he was a celly with for

40:58

three years. Correct. Like a short

41:00

abbreviated chunk of time in a

41:02

holding cell with a complete stranger

41:04

and somebody is going to turn

41:06

just the reality. I mean, you

41:09

would have, it's just so inconceivable

41:11

that someone would go, I got

41:13

an airtight alibi, this is all

41:15

going to go my way. That

41:17

just doesn't happen. It just does

41:19

not happen as well as like

41:21

I'm still trying to wrap my

41:24

mind around how he chartered you

41:26

know on his relatively you know

41:28

let yeah let's go into that

41:30

at the time he charted an

41:32

aircraft well to say from where

41:34

he had a visual alibi to

41:37

kill the person and fly back.

41:39

I mean, it's that. Yeah, can

41:41

I can I go into that

41:43

real fast? I love you too,

41:45

because it blows my mind and

41:47

it makes your title even more

41:49

at. It is absolutely inconceivable. So

41:52

when and again, I drove this

41:54

route, it took me, you know,

41:56

in a 2024, yeah, 2024 roads,

41:58

you know, perfect conditions. It was

42:00

October, it wasn't, you know, November

42:02

5th when it was cold and

42:05

all that stuff. About nine hours

42:07

to get now stopped. We stopped

42:09

and you know went to the

42:11

bathroom and stuff like what you

42:13

would think you guys a long

42:15

time you might need to stop

42:17

go to the bathroom if you're

42:20

you know in daylight also by

42:22

the way so when the prosecution

42:24

could not Make it make sense

42:26

based on their unimpeachable alibi witnesses

42:28

that the crime could have taken

42:30

place by taking a car from

42:33

Rock or Escanaba to Port Huron

42:35

to kill Scott, what Robert Cleland,

42:37

who, by the way, the day

42:39

before Scott was killed, lost the

42:41

attorney general race in the state

42:43

of Michigan, and I will say

42:45

this, although I may edit it

42:48

out in the episode. Scott was

42:50

allegedly seen his his campaign party

42:52

the night before at St. Clair

42:54

Inn. I went there and stayed

42:56

there in January, and I asked

42:58

about this with staff. Of course,

43:01

nobody knows now, but I was

43:03

able to verify that Robert Cleland

43:05

did have his campaign party at

43:07

the St. Clair Inn on November

43:09

4th, 1986. So, anyhow, Scott's father,

43:11

Gary Macklin, was a mayor, and

43:13

former police chief of Croswell, which

43:16

is where Scott is buried, and

43:18

allegedly and reportedly and reportedly repeatedly

43:20

repeatedly. was a supporter of Robert

43:22

Cleveland. Okay, so that would make

43:24

some kind of sense if Scott

43:26

might have been there. I don't

43:28

know that. I'm not clear on

43:31

substantiating that yet. But so Robert

43:33

Cleland, when he could not prove

43:35

that Symmigen took a car from

43:37

the UP to kill Scott, said,

43:39

well, he could have charted a

43:41

plane. Well, again, as Scott alluded,

43:44

he was on welfare. He was

43:46

ruled indigent. That's why he was

43:48

given his counsel in the trial

43:50

in the trial. Right. So what

43:52

they said was that it could

43:54

have been possible that he charted

43:56

a plane from Escanaba, flown down

43:59

to Port Huron, and landed in

44:01

a field. So if you believe

44:03

that, that means you would have

44:05

to believe that there was a

44:07

car there waiting for him, and

44:09

then you would also have to

44:12

believe that maybe the person who

44:14

gave him the car who knew

44:16

where Scott was going to be

44:18

in a different place than he

44:20

typically was. Right. So you have

44:22

at least at the very least

44:24

you have you would have the

44:27

the pilot would have to be

44:29

a conspirator on this more than

44:31

likely unless Tim and held a

44:33

gun to his head and said

44:35

you know take me down there

44:37

and you also have flight plans

44:40

no matter what you can't and

44:42

there are no exactly and there

44:44

are no records of any flight

44:46

plans or anything like that and

44:48

the flight the distance of flight

44:50

between Esk and Porsche around is

44:52

about 200 miles And so the,

44:55

I did the math on this,

44:57

I can't remember off the top

44:59

of my head, but it makes,

45:01

the first part of the flight

45:03

is what everybody talks about, but

45:05

the back half of the flight

45:07

is a thing I'm very interested

45:10

in because there is very little

45:12

chance that even if, even if

45:14

all of that was true, that

45:16

he could have killed Scott at

45:18

8.55am, which is when the people

45:20

described as a firecracker or a

45:23

car back firing goes off, gotten

45:25

into a car driven, driven, and

45:27

I've been there. There's not a

45:29

lot of space to I mean

45:31

you've got to go 20 minutes

45:33

or you know more. I'm being

45:35

generous by saying 20 minutes to

45:38

find a field that you could

45:40

land in. So that's 20 minutes.

45:42

Then you gotta get there and

45:44

you gotta get the plane going,

45:46

right? So that's another few minutes,

45:48

right? And then you gotta go

45:51

take the plane going, right? So

45:53

that's another few minutes, right? And

45:55

then you gotta go, like, take

45:57

off from the middle of the

45:59

field, you know, you leave your

46:01

car there, and fly back, and

46:03

then that gives you very, very

46:06

little time. drive to the cry

46:08

studio, which is where he's alibi

46:10

by a number of other witnesses.

46:12

It's just literally you have to

46:14

have everything, everything, everything, work better

46:16

and faster than anything you can

46:19

imagine. And also, there is no

46:21

evidence he ever met Scott. So

46:23

it is very, I'll hold back

46:25

my theory on it, but there

46:27

is a very, very crazy. thought

46:29

that he would have done this.

46:31

The other thing too is that

46:34

the prosecution theory for the motive,

46:36

the theory was that he was

46:38

jealous. Timogen was jealous of Scott.

46:40

I can tell you this, based

46:42

on my investigation in this case,

46:44

Timogen was not hurting for women.

46:46

He basically could have turned around,

46:49

pointed his finger out, hit one,

46:51

and they would go with him.

46:53

They would be with them, right?

46:55

And so for that to be

46:57

a thing that you would think

46:59

that he moved up to this

47:02

space, 450 miles away, and he's

47:04

jealous of someone else, which by

47:06

the way, when he was arrested,

47:08

he was with a different woman,

47:10

other than his pregnant fiance, by

47:12

the way, right? He was so

47:14

hurting over this thing, like, to

47:17

me, it's just... preposterous. There are

47:19

so many different things that in

47:21

this case, once you go into

47:23

the whirlpool, there's so many things

47:25

when you look at it, so

47:27

much if it doesn't make sense,

47:30

but almost all of it, like,

47:32

makes you think this is inconceivable,

47:34

there's no way you could have

47:36

done this. Well, and I think

47:38

that's... what stands out differently than

47:40

a wrongful conviction cases is you

47:42

listen to any previous coverage on

47:45

it. And you're like, usually there's

47:47

a little bit of weight on

47:49

both sides and what do I

47:51

need to weigh through? And this

47:53

one, you're like, no. So it

47:55

has to be about something else,

47:58

right? It has to be about

48:00

something else. And that's the big

48:02

missing piece of why did they

48:04

have to fight so hard to

48:06

convict this person. I will tell

48:08

you my my thoughts on that.

48:10

So I think like I said

48:13

that Scott's father was important in

48:15

the community. I think that there

48:17

were things that were unsavory that

48:19

he did not want exposed. I

48:21

think that they wanted it done

48:23

quickly. And I think that they

48:25

forced it. So the girlfriend had

48:28

another person who was she dated.

48:30

So she was with Scott. She

48:32

was with Scott. She was with.

48:34

She was with Scott. She was

48:36

with Scott. She was with. She

48:38

was with Scott. She was with

48:41

Scott. She was with. another man,

48:43

then she was with Timogen, and

48:45

then she was back with Scott.

48:47

The man in the middle there,

48:49

the other man, was on a

48:51

boat at the time of the

48:53

murder. So he was completely ruled

48:56

out. I think they were looking

48:58

at trying to get whoever the

49:00

next greatest opportunity was, right? Because

49:02

it's very easy. I mean, most

49:04

murders obviously are domestic in nature

49:06

or, you know, an intimate partner

49:09

or former intimate partner. I have

49:11

no problem with like saying that's

49:13

completely the thing that you should

49:15

go down first, the right should

49:17

get out first. But with Timogen,

49:19

there was just, he was not

49:21

a good dude. They wanted to

49:24

paint him as, you know, the

49:26

media painted him as the Ninja

49:28

killer. Well, the murder took place

49:30

with a shotgun, a 12-gave shotgun,

49:32

one shot at 855 in broad

49:34

daylight, in broad daylight, in public,

49:37

right? Right, it was in the

49:39

middle of the night or anywhere

49:41

like it's like the worst ninja.

49:43

Yeah, it's completely non engine right

49:45

but it was a good narrative

49:47

for the public and that's one

49:49

of the things that is very

49:52

interesting in this case and you

49:54

know me working in media like

49:56

I'm very interested in that yeah

49:58

too you know it's a spin

50:00

the story yeah the spin in

50:02

the story is very very important

50:04

so I mean you have those

50:07

things you have there are so

50:09

many things when when you start

50:11

to like really really go into

50:13

it and read the the transcripts

50:15

and the supplemental reports you know

50:17

Timogen passed a number of polygraphs.

50:20

What I've been told by law

50:22

enforcement professionals is that, you know,

50:24

if you pass a polygraph, you

50:26

know, we really kind of just

50:28

like say, all right, well, you

50:30

become lower on the, you know,

50:32

the level of what we consider

50:35

worth following. He agreed in his

50:37

first interview, which was on November

50:39

13th, 19th. He was officially arrested

50:41

and booked on November 14th 96,

50:43

which was my sixth birthday. But

50:45

on November 14th, when he was

50:48

initially interviewed, he said, I'll take

50:50

a polygraph, I'll do whatever. So

50:52

when that pop, they scheduled a

50:54

polygraph and then the date of

50:56

the polygraph exam, they said, no,

50:58

it's been canceled, right? And he

51:00

didn't get it until Bill Proctor,

51:03

who worked for WXYZ in Detroit,

51:05

had his television station pay for

51:07

it in 1996, I think it

51:09

was, a decade later, just about.

51:11

He actually took a polygrapher in

51:13

to the prison and had him

51:16

take it. And also, by the

51:18

way, his main alibi witness, Michelle

51:20

Woodworth, who was his girlfriend, his

51:22

pregnant girlfriend, who had his child,

51:24

who was with him in rock

51:26

at 9 o'clock in the morning

51:28

when they woke up that morning.

51:31

She also passed polygraphs, saying that

51:33

he was there with her. So

51:35

there are a number of these

51:37

things that you, when you start,

51:39

you don't. you know you don't

51:41

get a lot of the stuff

51:43

from the sort of the baseline

51:46

coverage of it but like when

51:48

you go into it it's like

51:50

there's so many different things that

51:52

are just just completely inconceivable. And

51:54

I'm so excited to have your

51:56

voice in your storytelling lead this

51:59

in that, you know, when you

52:01

said that this is also gonna

52:03

be kind of about my journey

52:05

jumping into this, I think that's

52:07

gonna make it really different than

52:09

a lot of other wrongful conviction

52:11

cases, not to mention just his

52:14

in the coverage it's had. What

52:16

other themes as we wrap up

52:18

here, do you think are gonna

52:20

be really important to explore? in

52:22

this podcast, above and beyond the

52:24

wrongful conviction piece, because, you know,

52:27

Scott and I have gotten a

52:29

little flavor of it in just

52:31

the questions that, you know, you're

52:33

going to want us to answer.

52:35

But some of those cultural, some

52:37

of those societal, some of those

52:39

IS things, what are some other

52:42

things that you think are important?

52:44

Well, I'm super interested in this

52:46

case in particular, from a micro

52:48

level, you know, he changed his

52:50

name, and I'm interested in the

52:52

separation of identity. you know, if

52:55

a person can can be a

52:57

certain way and try to distance

52:59

themselves from that, and if they

53:01

do that through changing their name

53:03

and changing their faith and things

53:05

like that, I'm super interested in

53:07

that sort of angle from just

53:10

a, you know, a faith in

53:12

religious, I guess, sort of. angle.

53:14

I think that's really important specifically

53:16

in this case. From a broader

53:18

sense, I think that I'm really

53:20

interested in the interplay of the

53:22

justice system and particularly in the

53:25

way that because I've looked at

53:27

a few cases now and there

53:29

are things that I see and

53:31

of course every prosecution is different.

53:33

I don't want to call them

53:35

games, but I see things. I

53:38

see gamesmanship in it in a

53:40

lot in a lot of situations.

53:42

Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly. I see

53:44

I see some of that is

53:46

very interesting to me and then

53:48

Also, the way that the jurors

53:50

are handled and the way the

53:53

government handles things after the fact,

53:55

you know, to me, it's very,

53:57

very difficult to understand how, I

53:59

mean, I think it's pretty clear

54:01

that at the very least, you

54:03

know, he's won a couple habeas

54:06

petitions. One of them said his

54:08

conviction should have been overturned and

54:10

he should be granted a new

54:12

trial. And I don't think that

54:14

a trial today, I don't think

54:16

there's a jury that would convict

54:18

him. Sure. I'd be shocked if

54:21

that was the case. So I'm

54:23

interested in that. Here's the thing.

54:25

I'll say it like this. Like

54:27

I find it very very hard

54:29

to believe that there is not

54:31

a statute of limitations on murder,

54:34

but there is a statute of

54:36

limitations on justice. That infuriates me.

54:38

That's a kick. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

54:40

Yeah. And the other thing too,

54:42

just really quickly to get back

54:44

to Scott, because I really do

54:46

try to make. sure that things

54:49

are about the victim as much

54:51

as I can in this case

54:53

it's really difficult because I have

54:55

not a lot about him I

54:57

foy it is school records I've

54:59

which got denied a lot of

55:01

things I've tried to do to

55:04

get to know him you know

55:06

I believe that Timmigen Kinsu is

55:08

innocent fully now something may come

55:10

up and I might change my

55:12

mind I don't know I'm working

55:14

on this in real time sure

55:17

sure but but what I would

55:19

say is this if what I

55:21

believe right now is true which

55:23

I strongly believe it is That

55:25

means that whoever shot Scott Macklin

55:27

got away. And when I say

55:29

in the podcast, and I will

55:32

repeat it in every episode, as

55:34

this is two life sentences and

55:36

one search for the truth, and

55:38

that means that you have two

55:40

people who have been administered life

55:42

sentences. One of them is in

55:45

a cold cemetery in Crosby, Michigan,

55:47

and I went there and I

55:49

saw him and I sat with

55:51

him. And that's why this is

55:53

how it's how it's real for

55:55

me. And this is why it

55:57

means a lot to me. It's

56:00

real for me because, you know,

56:02

I sat. there and talked to

56:04

him to his spirit. And then

56:06

I went to McComb, kind of

56:08

correctional, and I sat and I

56:10

taught with Tim and Kinsu. And

56:13

I asked him, and you have

56:15

to wait for the podcast, but

56:17

I asked him initially, the first

56:19

question I asked him was who

56:21

was Fred Freeman. And the last

56:23

question I asked him was who

56:25

was Tim and Kinsu. And It's

56:28

why I'm so passionate about this

56:30

because I do fully believe that

56:32

the wrong person is in prison

56:34

for this crime. And I do

56:36

believe he has changed. I do

56:38

believe he has a lot to

56:40

give and I say to people,

56:43

you know, he's done a lot

56:45

for prisoners in the MDOC. And

56:47

so just imagine what he could

56:49

do if he was not in

56:51

a cage. Right. I do fully

56:53

believe that. And I hope I

56:56

do the story justice. And I

56:58

hope that people will look into

57:00

the case on their own account

57:02

and learn about it. I don't

57:04

want to like change anybody's minds.

57:06

I want people to have the

57:08

agency to educate themselves and look

57:11

at the facts and do it

57:13

on their own. And if there's

57:15

anything I could say about any

57:17

other podcasters who want to do

57:19

this, first of all, don't. But

57:21

seriously, you know, just be... very

57:24

vigilant about the way you approach

57:26

things and don't allow your bias

57:28

in because initially I've written my

57:30

opening episode like 20 times and

57:32

the first 10 of them were

57:34

so biased right and I had

57:36

to check well and bias about

57:39

it and I had to like

57:41

really come back and look at

57:43

myself and say like I'm really

57:45

like if you can imagine that

57:47

there's if a balloon is you

57:49

know truth like or what's being

57:52

told to me I'm trying to

57:54

pop that balloon and if I

57:56

can't pop the balloon then that's

57:58

what that's the truth right so

58:00

my my hope is that everybody

58:02

who has this, you know, righteous

58:04

anger or righteous love, probably is

58:07

a better term, righteous love about

58:09

a case where they really believe

58:11

it's true to look into it

58:13

until you're really, really sure and

58:15

then go after it. And then,

58:17

you know, everybody's voice is very,

58:20

very important and it might save

58:22

a life or it might give

58:24

a family some peace and that's

58:26

all I'm hoping to do. Awesome.

58:28

Yeah. Thank you so much, Jason.

58:30

So we have some rapid fire

58:32

questions for you. Just four of

58:35

them. Yes, very quick. I think

58:37

we're going to do those things.

58:39

Yep. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. You're not

58:41

getting out of it. No, no,

58:43

no, no. We want to like

58:45

snap you out of the inconceivable

58:47

and into the conceivable. Although this

58:50

one is a little bit compelling.

58:52

If you had to choose a

58:54

last meal, what would it be?

58:56

Last meal? Gosh. Graz dressing, rib

58:58

eye steak, and mashed potatoes, probably.

59:00

Oh my God, you're such a

59:03

dude. You're such a dude. Okay,

59:05

okay. The answer, and it sounds

59:07

tasty. What is your favorite movie

59:09

that takes place in Los Angeles?

59:11

Favorite movie that takes place in

59:13

Los Angeles. So I would almost

59:15

say L.A. Confidential, but I know

59:18

Scott hates that movie. No, I

59:20

hate it. Sorry, okay, my bad.

59:22

Got it. Got it. Got it

59:24

switched around. That's okay. I do

59:26

like Ellie confidential. He wasn't heat,

59:28

said. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I

59:31

love heat. Heat's probably the one.

59:33

What's your favorite thing to do

59:35

with your kids? Play. I mean,

59:37

you know, my, I just love.

59:39

I look at folks, anybody that's

59:41

listening to this from now or

59:43

for in the future, I'm opening

59:46

up a huge Pandora's box with

59:48

this question because Jason is like

59:50

the most awesome dad ever just

59:52

absolutely adores his children and gives

59:54

such wonderful parental quality time. So

59:56

now he can't even answer it.

59:59

Now he's gonna get. Maudlin because

1:00:01

he loved him. I know. So

1:00:03

Shiloh, you gotta shake it up

1:00:05

with the last question. Last question,

1:00:07

and I've never said this

1:00:10

before, but there is a

1:00:12

right or wrong answer to

1:00:14

this one, okay? But I have,

1:00:16

I have more faith, I wouldn't

1:00:19

have had any more faith in

1:00:21

anyone else, so no pressure.

1:00:23

What's your favorite West Coast

1:00:25

90s hip-hop song? You know.

1:00:27

You know. Regulate. Thank you. You pass.

1:00:30

Love you, Jason. Love you guys. Thank

1:00:32

you so much for letting me do this.

1:00:34

I appreciate you. Oh, no. I appreciate you

1:00:36

guys. Your time. Later day. Yeah, you're gonna

1:00:38

come in. You're gonna come on the show

1:00:40

and you're gonna give everybody so

1:00:43

everybody that's listening now. Like come

1:00:45

on and listen because they're gonna

1:00:47

give their awesome expertise on things

1:00:49

that I can't talk about. I'm not smart

1:00:51

enough. Well, how can people find

1:00:53

you on social media? But

1:00:56

yeah, inconceivable, the story of

1:00:58

Tim Jikensu podcast group on

1:01:00

Facebook is there. We have about

1:01:02

almost 600 members now and I'd love

1:01:04

to have, yeah, we'd love to have

1:01:06

anybody else that is willing to join

1:01:08

and talk about this case. And, you

1:01:11

know, we really do just want to

1:01:13

talk about that. And then I've

1:01:15

got another case out of Michigan

1:01:17

that's been pushed to me that

1:01:19

I'm looking into that will be

1:01:21

season. to the case and is another person

1:01:23

that so far as I can tell

1:01:25

I believe he is also an innocent

1:01:28

person. So. Well, we will

1:01:30

definitely be keeping our audience

1:01:32

up to date and guiding them

1:01:34

towards a Facebook group if there

1:01:36

ends up being another social media

1:01:38

outlet for it. Let us know

1:01:40

we will keep everybody up and

1:01:42

of course we're gonna. tell everybody

1:01:44

to go and push that subscribe button.

1:01:47

And I appreciate not just the both

1:01:49

of you but all your listeners and

1:01:51

also for all your listeners who

1:01:53

have gotten to hear me edit the show

1:01:55

last several years and I appreciate you both

1:01:57

let me be a part of the fan.

1:02:00

I have so much respect and love

1:02:02

for you both and you've been better

1:02:04

than colleagues and your venture, you've been

1:02:06

friends and so I just appreciate you

1:02:09

both and I really appreciate you letting

1:02:11

me come on and talk about this

1:02:13

because it's something I'm very passionate about.

1:02:16

You know, let's try to get a

1:02:18

guy out of prison who doesn't deserve

1:02:20

to be there. That's my that's my

1:02:23

that's my position at this moment. So

1:02:25

okay. All right. We will stay tuned

1:02:27

to see how it goes. So thank

1:02:30

you, Jason. Thanks everyone for whoever was

1:02:32

here tonight live and gonna see this

1:02:34

in the future. Thanks so much for

1:02:37

tuning in. We'll see you next time

1:02:39

on LA. Not so confidential. Bye everyone.

1:03:02

We sincerely thank you for spending some time

1:03:04

with us today. LA Not So Confidential is

1:03:06

part of the Crowspace Media Network. Each episode

1:03:08

is hosted, produced, and written by Dr. Scott

1:03:10

and Dr. Shiloh. Our post-production editing and sweetening

1:03:12

magic is handled by the multi-talented Jason Usri

1:03:15

of Ear Cult Productions. Our theme music entitled

1:03:17

Cool Vibes Film Noir is composed and performed

1:03:19

by the talented Kevin MacLeod. He graciously allows

1:03:21

us to use his music via a Creative

1:03:23

Commons Attribution license. Please of Kevin's amazing work

1:03:25

on YouTube. All of the resources for each

1:03:27

episode can be found on our website at

1:03:29

LA dash not dash so dash confidential.com You

1:03:32

can find us on Instagram at LA not

1:03:34

so podcast on X at LA not so

1:03:36

pod and on Facebook at LA not so

1:03:38

confidential media inquiries and bookings are scheduled at

1:03:40

alienist entertainment@gmail.com once a month we go live

1:03:42

on YouTube on Saturday afternoon. So pay attention

1:03:44

to our social media announcements to join our

1:03:46

interactive broadcast entitled the

1:03:49

Couch, where we interview

1:03:51

guests on a number

1:03:53

of on a criminal of and

1:03:55

true crime topics. and

1:03:57

lastly, we'd be honored

1:03:59

if you joined our we'd

1:04:01

be honored if you .com at patron.com l.so

1:04:03

podcast with a With a

1:04:06

subscription, you you get an

1:04:08

ad free listening experience,

1:04:10

additional content, host interaction,

1:04:12

and you'll be the

1:04:14

first to know about

1:04:16

upcoming live events, social

1:04:18

gatherings, and super cool

1:04:20

swag. Thanks for listening

1:04:23

and join us next

1:04:25

time on LA. time

1:04:27

Not so Confidential.