0:00

Labyrinth listeners, it's Amanda. Today,

0:03

I'm dropping by to share my

0:05

recent conversation with Dr. Maya Shankar

0:07

on her podcast, A Slight Change

0:10

of Plans. If you're unfamiliar

0:12

with A Slight Change of Plans,

0:14

Maya, who is a cognitive behavioral

0:16

scientist, combines science and storytelling

0:18

to give us a more universal

0:20

understanding of our experiences with change,

0:22

as well as tools we can

0:24

use to better navigate the changes

0:26

in our lives. Maya

0:28

was inspired to create this show because

0:31

of her own personal life change, and

0:33

now she has intimate conversations with people

0:35

about their life transitions. She

0:37

also talks with experts like Adam Grant and

0:39

Mel Robbins who share how we can

0:41

better cope with change. I

0:43

actually sat down with Maya for the first

0:45

time back in 2021. We

0:47

talked about the reality of returning to

0:49

my life and how different it

0:51

was than I expected after four years

0:53

in an Italian prison. If

0:55

you haven't heard that episode, you should definitely

0:58

check it out first. This

1:00

time, I talked about the experience

1:02

of reaching out to Giuliano Minnini,

1:04

the lead prosecutor in my case. He

1:07

immediately saw guilt in me that

1:09

wasn't there, and over the years,

1:11

I felt a need to understand

1:13

how he viewed me. And

1:15

what I learned was, my well

1:17

-being didn't depend on what he was able

1:19

to give to me, but what

1:21

I was able to give to him. All

1:23

right, here's the episode. We hope you enjoy

1:26

it. If you do, be sure to

1:28

find more stories of transformation on A Slight

1:30

Change of Plans, available wherever you get

1:32

your podcasts. Hey, slight

1:34

changers. A quick heads up. This

1:36

is part two of my conversation

1:38

with Amanda Knox. If you haven't

1:41

listened to part one, we released it in

1:43

the feed last week. I highly recommend you

1:45

go back and listen. You won't want to

1:47

miss the full story. OK, now

1:49

on to the show. I

2:01

have all of this psychological baggage that

2:03

I'm carrying with me and the last

2:05

thing I want to do is to

2:07

pass that on to my daughter. So

2:09

I have to figure this out. This

2:11

is this puzzle of my trauma. I

2:13

have to figure it out and I

2:15

have to figure it out now, like

2:17

yesterday. Amanda Knox has

2:19

spent a decade trying to

2:22

move on from the worst thing

2:24

that ever happened to her,

2:26

being wrongfully convicted of murder. And

2:29

she's felt haunted by one question

2:31

in particular. Why? Why

2:34

was the lead prosecutor

2:36

Giuliano Minini so determined to

2:38

vilify her? I

2:40

couldn't understand how, like,

2:42

very immediately, like,

2:45

from day one, people,

2:47

and particularly Giuliana

2:50

Minini, saw guilt in me

2:52

that wasn't there. And I

2:54

realized that the only

2:56

way to truly understand was

2:58

to ask him. On

3:04

today's show, Amanda confronts the

3:06

man who helped put her

3:08

behind bars. I'm

3:10

Maya Schunker, a scientist who

3:13

studies human behavior. And

3:15

this is a slight change of plans, a

3:17

show about who we are and who we

3:19

become in the face of a big change. It

3:29

is shocking to me how

3:31

many people still believe Amanda

3:33

Knox is guilty of murder,

3:35

despite the lack of forensic

3:37

evidence. The real killer

3:39

was identified and sentenced in

3:41

2008 after his DNA was discovered

3:43

all over the body of

3:45

the victim, Meredith Kircher. Meredith

3:48

was Amanda's roommate at the time.

3:51

Amanda was initially sentenced to 26

3:54

years in an Italian prison, and

3:56

she spent nearly four years behind

3:58

bars before being on appeal.

4:01

But even after Amanda's release,

4:03

after she returned to the

4:05

U .S., the prosecution continued to

4:07

pursue her, and at one

4:09

point they reconvicted her. After

4:12

a painful, multi -year legal

4:14

battle, Amanda was

4:16

finally definitively exonerated in

4:19

2015 by Italy's highest

4:21

court. The years

4:23

of public vilification and fear

4:25

have taken a massive emotional

4:27

toll on Amanda. And

4:29

recently, she made a bold and

4:31

surprising decision to reach back out

4:34

to her prosecutor. I

4:36

wanted to know why. She

4:38

told me part of it had to do

4:40

with becoming a mom and wanting to unpack

4:42

her trauma for the sake of her young

4:44

children. We started our

4:46

conversation by going back to the

4:48

moment she received her initial prison sentence

4:50

at age 22 and what it

4:52

all meant for her long -held dream

4:54

of one day having a family. The

4:57

minute they handed down that 26 -year

4:59

sentence to me, I did the

5:01

math, and I knew what my body

5:04

was capable of and what it

5:06

was not capable of, and I reasoned

5:08

that I had not just been

5:10

condemned to prison time, I had been

5:12

condemned to infertility, which was devastating

5:14

for me because I had

5:16

always wanted to be a mom. Like

5:18

my mom made me sign a contract in

5:20

Green Cran when I was like six

5:22

or seven years old because I was already

5:24

talking about wanting to be a mom

5:26

and as a very young single mom she

5:29

was like I'm gonna make you sign

5:31

a contract that says you're gonna wait until

5:33

you're 30 to be a mom. Because

5:35

I like seriously like already at like six or

5:37

seven I was like I can't wait to be

5:39

a mom and she's like we'll see. So

5:43

yeah, so to be given the

5:45

opportunity to get out of prison

5:47

as a young person still within

5:49

my fertile years, I was still

5:51

up against a huge challenge, right?

5:53

I was still the girl accused

5:56

of murder, which felt very, very

5:58

ostracizing and very limiting to me

6:00

at that point. And so

6:02

I still was at a loss of how

6:04

I was going to be able to have a

6:06

family and have a career and be a

6:08

mom. Who would

6:10

ever want to date Amanda Knox

6:12

with all the baggage that comes

6:14

with it? I was estranged from

6:17

the world. And then I got

6:19

very, very lucky in 2015. I

6:21

met for the first time my

6:23

husband. And to Chris's

6:25

credit, he did not allow himself to

6:27

be influenced by all of the crap

6:29

that was said about me in the

6:31

world. And I'm so grateful to him

6:33

because if you really want to go

6:36

down that Amanda Knox rabbit hole, you

6:38

can find whatever you want. And it's

6:40

very scandalous. There's a lot. And so

6:42

he's always been very mindful

6:44

of being respectful of my

6:46

humanity and allowing me to

6:48

be the one to share

6:50

with him those moments of

6:52

extreme life that I have

6:54

lived. So you and

6:56

Chris get married and you start

6:58

trying to have children and then

7:00

one day you find yourself staring

7:03

at a positive pregnancy test. Can

7:05

you bring me back to that

7:07

moment and how things unfolded from there?

7:10

I mean, That moment was

7:12

feeling like finally something was

7:14

going right in my life.

7:16

Like finally I was getting

7:18

back something that meant so

7:20

much to me. Like all

7:22

the other things that had

7:24

been taken from me were

7:26

so intangible. But here was

7:28

a true and tangible thing

7:30

that had been taken from

7:32

me and that I had

7:34

gotten back. And so it

7:36

truly felt like this gift

7:38

and this reclamation of my

7:41

life. and then to have

7:43

that to show up at

7:45

the OBGYN and to hear

7:47

them say there is no

7:49

heartbeat. I

7:52

wasn't prepared

7:54

for that loss

7:56

because it

7:59

had already It

8:02

was that this was my win, you

8:04

know I was not aware of all of

8:06

the statistics and how common it is

8:08

to miscarry all of that like I just

8:10

didn't know I had never been pregnant

8:12

before and so this is the first time

8:14

I'd ever been pregnant and then for

8:16

that to end in failure sent

8:18

me down a spiral of

8:21

fear and paranoia and being triggered

8:23

and wondering if I was

8:25

infertile because of things that had

8:27

happened to me in prison

8:29

and the lack of health care

8:31

like I had no idea

8:33

why it didn't work and why

8:35

this this being just didn't

8:37

continue to be and like just

8:39

that weird limbo space of

8:41

like not even knowing how to

8:43

grieve and so that that

8:45

was really hard. And I had

8:47

this like thought in my

8:49

head, which is so stupid. But

8:51

I thought like, didn't I

8:53

deserve to have this thing go

8:55

right? Like all of these

8:57

things had gone wrong in my

8:59

life. Why didn't this

9:01

thing go right? Why

9:03

it almost felt like I was being

9:06

punished again. Like why am I being

9:08

punished? Like what did I do wrong?

9:10

Yeah, I found so much

9:12

resonance in the reaction

9:14

that you had to the

9:16

miscarriage beyond your expected

9:18

grief, this feeling of cosmic

9:20

injustice, right? That since

9:23

you had suffered so much

9:25

in the past, the

9:27

universe in some way owed

9:29

you a perfect pregnancy, right?

9:31

Which is so stupid. It is

9:33

such a natural part of our

9:35

psychology. I mean, there's a concept

9:38

that I've been exploring lately called

9:40

belief in a just world, which

9:42

basically says that We

9:44

get what we deserve in life.

9:46

We get out what we put

9:48

in. Good people get good things,

9:50

bad people get bad things. And

9:53

how much any one of us

9:55

believes in a just world varies

9:57

quite a bit. But what was

9:59

so interesting to me is that

10:01

you maintained your belief in this

10:03

kind of justice despite everything you

10:05

went through. Like you still in

10:08

this visceral way felt that the

10:10

moral scales should balance in the

10:12

universe. Yeah, that's a really interesting

10:14

way of framing it because you're

10:16

right. I had every reason to

10:18

believe that there was no justice

10:20

and I could be absolutely cynical

10:23

about reality and of course I

10:25

lost my baby. What else was

10:27

I going to do? And like

10:29

the fact that it really blindsided

10:31

me is demonstrative

10:33

of the fact that I

10:35

am very, very stubbornly optimistic

10:37

in the end, I guess.

10:39

Yes. That's what I glean

10:41

from it, for sure. Because

10:43

I could totally imagine having

10:45

the opposite response, just one

10:48

of sheer cynicism, just

10:50

extreme nihilism. Totally. There's no

10:52

meaning or purpose or semblance

10:54

of order in the universe.

10:57

It's so funny because despite my knowledge

10:59

of this concept and despite my

11:01

understanding of how irrational it is to

11:03

believe this, I fall prey

11:06

to this so often, even though,

11:08

of course, my rational brain

11:10

is like, there's no such thing as

11:12

being entitled to anything in this world, right?

11:15

And so I just... your story has

11:17

so many exceptional components to it,

11:19

but what I find so captivating are

11:21

these themes that emerge from your

11:23

story that all of us can relate

11:25

to. I mean, I related to

11:27

that. I related to the story that

11:29

you described of wanting kids from

11:31

the time that you were six or

11:33

seven years old. I was having

11:35

imaginary calls with my neighbors about my

11:37

rambunctious kids. Oh, it's so sweet.

11:39

I love how you were already like

11:41

a jaded mom at six or

11:43

seven. You know, little Bobby. Such

11:45

a terror, Martha, or whatever names I was

11:48

using at the time. That's so cute. And

11:51

I'm curious to know, so what

11:53

it was that compelled you to motherhood?

11:55

Like, what were your hopes and dreams? I

11:58

think that it has to

12:00

do with just how awesome

12:02

of a mother I have.

12:04

I've always felt, always, always,

12:06

always, that I was cradled

12:08

by her. like that I

12:10

was supported by her, that

12:12

any time that something could

12:14

ever go wrong in my

12:16

life, I could turn to

12:18

her and she would be

12:20

there. And so I

12:23

really was given a model of

12:25

what an ideal mom is from

12:27

a very young age, and of

12:29

course that has proved itself over

12:31

the course of time. My mom

12:33

has been there for me and

12:35

through extreme circumstances, but it all

12:38

comes down to that love

12:40

for another being that that

12:42

goes beyond any love that

12:44

you could have for yourself.

12:46

It is just that wholehearted

12:48

embrace of another person that

12:50

I just know intuitively because

12:52

it was given to me

12:55

from the day I was

12:57

born. I wanted to do

12:59

that. Wow. Yeah, it's very stirring

13:01

to hear you describe that relationship

13:03

and what a gift she gave

13:05

you. Today I'm

13:07

So delighted to share that you're

13:09

a mom to two kids. You

13:11

have your daughter Eureka, your son

13:14

Echo. Yeah. I'm in the thick

13:16

of it. I'm curious to know

13:18

about your experience of motherhood and

13:20

how it's been informed by the

13:22

trauma that you faced and... one

13:24

of the most primal instincts that

13:27

parents have is to protect their

13:29

children from harm and suffering. I

13:31

mean, you write that your first

13:33

words to Eureka after she was

13:35

born were, I'm sorry. And it

13:37

was just in response to the

13:40

fact that like every newborn, she

13:42

was crying, right? She came out

13:44

of the womb crying and you

13:46

felt that just visceral instinct to

13:48

protect her from pain. And

13:51

as someone who has been Through

13:53

so much needless suffering in

13:55

your life. I want to understand

13:57

how that's Informed how you

13:59

think about your role as a

14:01

parent. Yeah, both Eureka and

14:03

echo. Yeah trauma has

14:05

really interesting ways of presenting itself in

14:08

your life. And I feel like

14:10

grief and the processing of traumatic experiences

14:12

manifest in different ways as you

14:14

change and grow as a human being

14:16

over time. And one of the

14:18

big ways that I have been sort

14:20

of forced to process everything that

14:23

happened in Italy was becoming a mother

14:25

and feeling that sense of urgency,

14:27

like even while I was still pregnant

14:29

and she was on the way

14:31

but I'm getting bigger and bigger and

14:33

I can feel her and I

14:35

know she's coming and I'm like, oh

14:38

my god. I was like

14:40

thinking like I have all of

14:42

this psychological baggage that I'm carrying

14:44

with me and the last thing

14:46

I want to do is to

14:48

pass that on to my daughter.

14:50

So I have to figure out

14:52

how do I hold my arms

14:54

around that. How do I

14:56

keep that to myself? And

14:58

how do I try to

15:00

derive something good from that? My

15:03

daughter is following me in

15:05

my wake and so I'm hoping

15:07

that I'm planting seeds and

15:09

not just dropping garbage in my

15:11

wake for her to encounter.

15:14

I want those to be things

15:16

that are of value that

15:18

can be of assistance to her

15:20

in her life. And so

15:22

I was thinking, okay, I have

15:25

to, I have to figure

15:27

out, I have to figure this

15:29

out. This puzzle of my

15:31

trauma, I have to figure it

15:33

out and I have to

15:36

figure it out. now like yesterday

15:38

and and one of those

15:40

puzzle pieces was what is the

15:42

difference between pain and suffering

15:44

because one is inevitable and the

15:47

other is not and Indeed

15:49

like by giving birth to her

15:51

her first experience of the

15:53

world was pain and I

15:56

felt so bad about that like

15:58

it didn't it didn't even occur

16:00

to me that that would be

16:02

her first ever experience outside of

16:04

the womb until it was happening

16:06

and then obviously she was being

16:08

squeezed out and it was not

16:10

pleasant for her and she's coming

16:12

and she's screaming and I'm just

16:14

going oh my god I'm

16:17

so sorry, like I have given

16:19

existence to you and that existence

16:21

is going to be painful and

16:23

I can't take that away as

16:25

much as I want to. Like

16:27

as much as I wish that I

16:30

could take that pain that you're feeling,

16:32

I can't and I'm so sorry. I'm

16:34

so sorry. But

16:37

the one thing that I do

16:39

know that I can teach

16:41

her is that There

16:43

don't have to be layers of

16:45

pain on top of the pain

16:47

that we inevitably experience. There don't

16:49

have to be meta experiences of

16:51

pain on top of pain that

16:53

make it harder to get past

16:56

the immediate pain that we feel. Pain

16:58

is a automatic feeling

17:01

that you do not

17:03

choose to feel as

17:05

a result from certain

17:08

things that happen so you

17:10

jam your toe in the

17:12

door jam you feel pain

17:14

or you lose someone that

17:16

you love you feel pain. Suffering

17:19

is the pain of feeling that

17:21

you shouldn't be feeling that pain is

17:23

when you convince yourself that the

17:25

world isn't as it should be. and

17:28

therefore there is a level of pain

17:30

on top of the pain that cannot

17:32

be resolved and that doesn't really go

17:34

away until you accept reality as it

17:36

is. It is a pain that will

17:38

persist because the world isn't the way

17:40

that you think it should be. The

17:42

world just is the way it is.

17:45

And so I try

17:47

to always accept

17:49

the pain that just

17:51

comes with being

17:53

a being in the world

17:55

and to allow myself to let go

17:57

of the meta levels of pain that

18:00

come from me imposing my ideas about

18:02

how the world should be on the

18:04

way the world is. And

18:06

being able to like demonstrate that

18:08

to my daughter is one

18:10

of my greatest weird silver linings

18:12

to this cloud of like,

18:15

oh, I've learned a very

18:17

extremely valuable skill over the course

18:19

of this very extreme circumstance,

18:21

which is to recognize that difference

18:23

and to know what to

18:25

do about it. Yeah. So

18:28

is it correct to say

18:30

then that you see your role

18:32

as a mom as not

18:34

to Shield your children from pain,

18:36

which is inevitable and probably

18:38

a vital part of growth But

18:40

instead to equip them with

18:42

the cognitive tools they need to

18:44

be able to differentiate between

18:47

pain and suffering and to learn

18:49

in the throes of suffering

18:51

how to climb their way out

18:53

totally You talked about yourself

18:55

as being this just like unfailing

18:57

optimist, right? You almost can't

18:59

help your optimism. can't help it.

19:02

Which is a wonderful

19:04

genetic disposition to have. You

19:06

know, many of us form

19:08

our beliefs about how the world

19:11

works based on messages that we

19:13

receive in childhood, right? And

19:15

obviously your children will absorb

19:17

messages from so many places. One

19:19

day they will read your

19:22

Wikipedia page, right? They will read

19:24

the articles. Before

19:26

that moment in time, what

19:28

kind of philosophy are you trying

19:30

to instill in your children about the

19:32

kind of world they're growing up

19:34

in? Oh my,

19:36

that's a great question because

19:39

that's a really interesting

19:41

question because I've not posed

19:43

it to myself that

19:45

way. I've more posed it

19:47

as a, as you

19:49

encounter hardships in your life,

19:51

what do you do about them way? I'm

19:54

thinking of all the times that

19:56

baby Echo pulls Eureka's hair and how

19:58

frustrated she is by that. And

20:00

I try to explain to her like,

20:02

I'm going to talk to him, but

20:04

I want you to know that

20:07

he doesn't understand yet. And

20:09

I feel like adults are like

20:11

that too. Some people are just

20:13

not cognitively there to acknowledge that

20:15

something they've done to harm someone,

20:17

even if it was unintentional, is

20:20

meaningful and you can do something

20:22

about that and you can learn

20:24

from it. Like that is

20:26

still a skill that adults

20:28

are learning to this day. And

20:30

I think that maybe is

20:32

a way of thinking about the

20:34

world that I'm trying to

20:36

impart on Eureka is like, yes,

20:38

like sometimes things happen and

20:40

they shouldn't have happened. And

20:42

we can do our best to try to

20:45

make sure that doesn't happen, but I can't

20:47

promise you that it won't. because

20:49

some people are not ready to learn

20:51

from their mistakes yet. Yeah,

20:53

it is a very optimistic

20:55

posture to have because you

20:58

are allowing for redemption in

21:00

everyone. You're granting people a

21:02

growth mindset essentially that there

21:04

is room for that edification

21:06

to happen, right? Absolutely. the

21:08

insight they need. I think

21:10

it would be an unrealistic

21:13

expectation to not expect people

21:15

to grow because I feel

21:17

like We all tend

21:19

to grow, especially

21:21

when we encounter obstacles

21:23

or hardship. I

21:26

am always looking for an

21:28

opportunity to grow and what happens

21:30

to me. And so maybe I'm

21:32

just projecting that perspective of humanity

21:34

onto everyone else. With

21:36

this perspective in mind, do

21:38

you feel like in your heart

21:41

of hearts, you can truthfully

21:43

share with your children that you

21:45

still believe the world? is

21:47

a fundamentally good place filled with

21:49

fundamentally good people? Hmm.

21:54

Uh, hmm. Do

21:56

I believe that the world is

21:58

a fundamentally good full

22:01

of fundamentally good people?

22:03

I think that

22:06

unless you're

22:08

truly a psychopath,

22:11

you encounter the

22:13

world with

22:16

the idea of wanting

22:18

to do your best

22:20

in it. And

22:23

therefore, you

22:26

want to

22:28

achieve not just what is

22:30

good for you, but what is good

22:32

for other people too. Maybe you

22:34

have some people's best interests over others, but

22:36

I do think that we all think

22:38

of ourselves as a hero of our own

22:40

story. We're all good

22:42

guys in our minds, which I

22:45

think lends to the intention

22:47

to be a good guy, even

22:49

if, ultimately, we

22:51

trick ourselves into thinking that the

22:53

bad that we're doing is good.

22:55

You're saying even for those people,

22:57

there are justifications in place that

22:59

at least make them think that

23:01

they're acting in alignment with their

23:03

axioms, however flawed their axioms are,

23:05

for example. Exactly, exactly. So I

23:07

feel like the drive to do

23:09

the right thing or be a

23:11

good person is in everyone. The

23:14

problem is, how is that

23:16

drive manifesting itself? That is

23:18

where I can't make any promises

23:20

because the world is full of

23:23

crazy ideas and people get attached

23:25

to them and then try to

23:27

manifest them as an expression of

23:29

trying to be a good person.

23:32

Have you thought about how you plan

23:34

to share your story with your

23:36

kids one day and when that might

23:38

be? And do you find yourself

23:40

kind of rehearsing parts of it in

23:42

your head, you know, as you

23:44

go about your life or fall asleep

23:46

at night? The

23:48

cat's out of the bag

23:51

already, which is how old

23:53

is Eureka now? She is

23:55

three and a half and

23:57

It's coming up because a

23:59

lot of the work that

24:01

I do is around criminal

24:03

justice reform and telling my

24:05

story and I'm executive producing

24:07

a Hulu show that's based

24:09

upon my first memoir waiting

24:11

to be heard and so

24:13

My daughter, just by virtue

24:15

of being around me, has

24:17

become aware that there is

24:19

a story, and she

24:21

has asked me, what is

24:23

that story? And I

24:26

always take this position

24:28

of be honest in

24:30

an age -appropriate way. So

24:32

I tell her a very

24:34

condensed and simplified version of the

24:37

story, which is when mommy

24:39

was younger, mommy went to

24:41

Italy and someone hurt her friend. And

24:43

then the Italian police hurt mommy

24:45

and mommy was sad for a long

24:47

time and she was in jail.

24:49

But then mommy was freed and mommy

24:51

came home and mommy met papa

24:53

and we fell in love and then

24:55

we had you and now mommy's

24:57

happy. Sorry, I

24:59

don't mean to get emotional. Sorry,

25:03

can I just say, I

25:05

am so happy that you get

25:07

to have this as my

25:09

friend. Thanks, Maya. It

25:12

fills me with the deepest

25:14

joy that something that meant so

25:16

much to you. Oh

25:18

my gosh, sorry. No, thank you. Something

25:20

that meant so much to you

25:22

is something that you get to have

25:24

in this lifetime. It's

25:26

unspeakable joy for me. Thank

25:29

you, Maya. I

25:31

feel really, really lucky. Like,

25:34

I'm alive. I am healthy. I

25:37

am safe. I have a home.

25:39

I have a husband. I have

25:41

children. Like, all of the things

25:43

that I thought were gone are

25:45

here. And I'm so lucky. So,

25:48

thank you for feeling that

25:50

with me, though, because, like, it's

25:52

true. Like, any

25:54

one of those things in a moment

25:57

could have been taken away. And...

25:59

that is not lost on me

26:01

every day I wake up in the

26:03

morning. We'll

26:08

be back in a moment with a slight

26:10

change of plans. Visit

26:30

Patreon .com slash Knox

26:32

Robinson. The

26:40

chief prosecutor in Amanda's

26:42

wrongful murder conviction was

26:44

a man named Giuliano

26:46

Minini. From the

26:48

start, Minini clung to his

26:50

bizarre and unfounded theory that

26:52

Amanda killed Meredith as part

26:55

of a sex -fueled satanic ritual,

26:57

despite no real evidence to support

26:59

it. This narrative caught

27:02

on like wildfire in the European

27:04

tabloids, and public opinion turned

27:06

against Amanda before the trial even

27:08

started. Minini ignored

27:10

crucial DNA evidence from the

27:13

real killer. And he

27:15

relied on statements Amanda had made under

27:17

duress when she was interrogated for

27:19

more than 50 hours in the days

27:21

following the murder. The

27:23

high court that definitively

27:25

exonerated Amanda would later

27:28

cite glaring errors and

27:30

investigative amnesia in the

27:32

case. And so when

27:34

I heard that Amanda recently reached out

27:36

to her prosecutor, I was

27:38

shocked. She told me

27:40

she was compelled by one question. The

27:43

why question. why did this

27:45

happen to me? I

27:47

still couldn't really

27:49

figure it out. And

27:51

it really bothered

27:54

me because I couldn't

27:56

understand how like

27:58

very immediately, like from

28:00

day one, people

28:03

and particularly Giuliano

28:05

Minini saw guilt in

28:07

me that wasn't

28:09

there. And I didn't

28:11

understand why. But

28:13

I was not satisfied with a lot

28:15

of the sort of answers that were

28:18

proposed by people around me, which is,

28:20

ah, he's an idiot, or ah, he's,

28:22

you know, he's a corrupt guy, and

28:24

he didn't care if you were innocent

28:26

or not. He just wanted to blame

28:28

somebody. Like, there were a lot of

28:30

different messages coming my way about what

28:33

his motivations were, and

28:35

none of that felt

28:37

true. Like,

28:39

I could not imagine him

28:41

just sitting back in his,

28:44

you know, prosecutor's office. Like, he's

28:47

not sitting there with Mr. Burns'

28:49

fingers cackling about how he has an

28:51

innocent girl in prison and who cares

28:53

if she's guilty or not. Like, he

28:56

is a person who believes that he

28:58

is doing the right thing and that

29:00

he who believes that he's a good

29:02

person. And yet, and yet

29:04

he was capable of so much harm.

29:07

And not just harm to me, but

29:09

harm to everyone involved. Principally, Meredith's

29:11

family, who are now left with this

29:13

confusing idea of what really happened

29:15

to our daughter, was this girl in

29:17

on it or not, did she

29:19

get away with it? That

29:22

is psychological torture when

29:24

they deserved closure and they

29:26

deserved direct and clear

29:28

answers to what happened to

29:30

Meredith. And so

29:32

I... wanted

29:34

to understand why.

29:37

And I realized that the

29:40

only way to truly

29:42

understand was to ask him.

29:45

I'm interested in the fact that

29:47

you were so quickly willing to

29:49

give him the benefit of the

29:51

doubt in terms of his intentions

29:53

and motivation, right? You very quickly

29:55

did away with the reductionist versions

29:57

of him. He's just evil. He's Ego

30:00

obsessed, you know, all he cares

30:02

about is his reputation, blah, blah,

30:04

blah. And to me, this harkens

30:06

back to the philosophy you shared

30:08

with me earlier, which is this

30:10

feeling that by and large, people

30:12

try to be good. And

30:15

sometimes they just don't understand

30:17

yet. Right. Yes. So. Having gone

30:19

through the experience of being

30:21

viewed in the worst possible light

30:23

and being viewed as a

30:26

monster as this like black and

30:28

white villain, I intuitively felt

30:30

that I shouldn't do the same

30:32

thing, which is to think

30:34

of another human being in those

30:36

terms. And I really

30:38

did want to see the

30:41

good in him. I wanted

30:43

to understand

30:45

how he was the hero

30:47

of his own story and then

30:49

hopefully change his mind. Like

30:51

I'm gonna be honest, like I

30:53

thought if only he could

30:55

see who I really was. Like

30:58

he didn't know me from

31:00

anybody and he came to know

31:02

me in the context of

31:04

a murder investigation. So of course

31:06

he's going to see me

31:08

from this sort of suspicious adversarial

31:10

lens. I mean, I

31:12

knew what that felt like. As soon

31:14

as I, you know, discovered that this

31:16

crime scene was in my house and

31:18

that my roommate had been murdered, suddenly

31:20

everybody seemed more sinister. I started to

31:22

think, oh my God, could that guy

31:24

who once gave me a ride on

31:26

a Vespa home, maybe he's the murderer

31:28

because he now knows where I'm at?

31:30

Like, who knows? Like, it gives you

31:32

this like cognitive opening where suddenly everything

31:34

can be seen in the worst possible

31:36

light. And I was wondering like, Is

31:39

it possible for me to have

31:41

a relationship with him that isn't

31:43

adversarial and that is coming from

31:45

a place of really wanting to

31:47

understand? But how do you

31:49

do that? And one of

31:52

the things that I realized was it

31:54

was not going to work if

31:56

I came in with an adversarial stance.

31:58

I couldn't just write him a

32:00

letter and be like, Dr. Giuliano Magnini,

32:03

how dare you? You know, you were

32:05

wrong and how dare you? And

32:07

you know, like that was not going

32:09

to get me anywhere because that

32:11

was going to set the terms of

32:13

our relationship in these terms that

32:15

we had known all along, that these

32:17

adversarial accusational terms. And

32:19

instead, I tried to think

32:21

what in the world

32:23

do we have in common

32:25

because we have something.

32:27

in common. Every person has

32:29

something in common. If

32:32

I could only find common

32:34

ground with him, maybe

32:36

that would be the

32:38

first step. And it wasn't

32:40

hard for me to find that

32:42

common ground with him. It

32:45

was right there to see, which

32:47

is that this case got

32:49

out of control in the media,

32:51

and everyone, not just me,

32:53

got turned into a sort of

32:55

two -dimensional cartoon version of ourselves.

32:58

And I knew that he

33:00

felt misrepresented in the press. And

33:03

so I reached out to him and

33:05

I said, I don't know

33:07

who you are. All I

33:09

know is that you are my prosecutor

33:11

and you're scary, therefore, but like, I

33:13

know that you were misrepresented in the

33:15

press and I was misrepresented in the

33:17

press. And I feel like we have

33:19

that in common. And I'm wondering, do

33:22

you want to talk to

33:24

me about who you really are?

33:28

And, you know, never

33:31

underestimate the element

33:33

of surprise because I

33:35

surprised him. And

33:37

I surprised him so much, we

33:39

ended up corresponding over email for

33:41

years before I actually ever met

33:43

him in person. And I can't

33:46

tell you so much of it

33:48

was like the banal stuff of

33:50

just like talking to your Uncle

33:52

who lives in another country like

33:54

oh, how are the dogs doing?

33:56

Oh, you know like oh I

33:58

went on a walk today, and

34:00

it was a beautiful rain You

34:02

know like I love the rain

34:04

so I'm learning things about him

34:06

like I learned that he loves

34:08

to listen to Wagner I learned

34:10

that he's super into Lord of

34:12

the Rings and You know and

34:14

like he sees himself as like

34:16

King Theoden and me like Aowyn

34:18

and it's just like but like

34:20

these little moments that are like

34:22

you Do you know what you're

34:24

saying? It seemed like he was

34:26

always dropping little hints to me

34:28

about how he really felt about

34:30

the case through these little personal

34:32

details. Does he understand what it

34:34

means? If he's such a big

34:36

Lord of the Rings fan, he

34:38

knows that Aowyn's worst fear is

34:41

to be locked in a cage.

34:43

Yeah. So you felt

34:45

like they're these little nuggets of contrition.

34:47

Is that right? Yeah, yeah, contrition

34:50

Easter eggs. And then I kept questioning

34:52

myself. I was like, am I reading into

34:54

this? Or like a really great example

34:56

where he sent me this movie to watch.

34:58

He said, oh my gosh, you have

35:01

to watch this movie. It's one of my

35:03

favorite movies about Detective Migray. And

35:05

it's a case where Detective

35:07

Migray realizes that somebody that

35:09

he had condemned to death

35:12

for murder is actually innocent.

35:14

And so he orchestrates this

35:16

man's secret release from prison

35:18

and then follows him around

35:20

until he finds out who

35:22

the real murderer is. And

35:25

I'm just like, is

35:28

this him, like I

35:30

kept thinking, is this

35:32

him admitting? That

35:34

he was wrong like or fault

35:36

or am I reading too much

35:38

into this and so like there's

35:40

there was a lot in the

35:42

correspondence that gave me hope to

35:44

believe that he was on the

35:46

cusp of like telling me but

35:48

maybe not telling me because he

35:50

didn't want it in writing and

35:52

so is he finding other ways

35:54

to tell like so it's been

35:56

this weird unraveling of a code.

35:59

and also like just allowing myself to

36:01

just accept it for whatever it

36:03

is. How did

36:05

your family react to

36:07

hearing that you wanted to

36:09

reach out to this

36:11

guy? Like were they at

36:13

all convinced by your curiosity, by

36:16

your need to understand why? No,

36:19

is the short answer to that

36:21

question. I'm

36:23

with your family. to be clear.

36:26

Yeah. Yeah. And I get it. And

36:28

like, honestly, if this had happened

36:30

to my daughter and I was now

36:32

watching her have empathy and compassion

36:34

and curiosity for her, the person who

36:36

had harmed her, I would be

36:38

afraid that she would be setting herself

36:41

up for pain that she didn't

36:43

have to feel. And I would ask

36:45

of her, like, what do you

36:47

think you need from this person? Why

36:49

are you holding on to this

36:51

person? as if you need him

36:53

to be better. And you know,

36:56

that's a legitimate, that's a legitimate question.

36:58

Why does he have to be an

37:00

unlock for any exactly in your life,

37:02

right? That's giving him a kind of

37:04

power that he simply doesn't deserve. Exactly.

37:06

And actually that was a crucial question

37:08

that I asked myself as I got

37:10

closer and closer to meeting with him

37:12

is I like I had

37:14

to face this idea of like,

37:16

wait, am I just in a

37:19

weird Stockholm situation and I'm like

37:21

fixated on him and do I

37:23

actually need him? And I had

37:25

a conversation with this person named

37:27

David Zelman and he suggested to

37:29

me the idea that I did

37:31

not in fact need to talk

37:33

to Giuliano Minini, that I did

37:35

not need anything from him. And

37:37

then he gave me this very,

37:40

very radical idea that maybe, just

37:42

maybe, I might

37:44

be feeling so drawn to him

37:46

because I have something to

37:48

give him. And

37:50

that was the switch

37:53

that flipped for me

37:55

where I thought, yes,

37:58

this is not about him and

38:00

what he is capable of

38:02

giving. This is

38:04

about me and what I

38:07

am capable of giving. And

38:10

I know. that

38:12

I am capable of being

38:14

kind to this man. And

38:18

by God, I

38:20

am going to do it and

38:22

no one can stop me. And

38:25

that's what it ultimately came

38:28

to be about. It's not about

38:30

him. It's about me and

38:32

what I have in me and

38:34

what I feel compelled to

38:36

give that didn't need to be

38:38

given. and that was not

38:40

even asked for. Yes. Well,

38:42

because notably, when you did actually

38:44

meet him in person, you brought

38:46

your husband with you, you had

38:49

your daughter with you, he

38:51

was not in writing,

38:53

but he didn't extend an

38:55

apology, right? Yeah,

38:57

so what he did say

39:00

versus what he didn't say, right?

39:02

Like, he didn't say, I'm

39:05

sorry, he didn't say, I

39:08

was wrong. But

39:10

he did say, I

39:12

believe you. He

39:15

said, if I

39:17

were asked to prosecute this case again, I would

39:19

not. He

39:21

said that me reaching out to

39:23

him was one of the most

39:25

important things that had ever happened

39:27

to him. And

39:30

he said that he

39:32

was in awe by it.

39:38

I think the really interesting

39:40

thing to think about

39:42

is you can come away

39:44

from an experience like

39:46

that, being deeply

39:48

disappointed or being

39:51

pleasantly surprised. And

39:53

it's really your

39:55

choice. Like the

39:57

answers that I

39:59

got from him

40:01

were not always

40:04

satisfying, but they

40:06

were interesting. And

40:08

they were revelatory. There

40:11

was a person who I was talking to

40:13

who was just like so frustrated by the

40:15

end of reading my book. She was like,

40:17

I mean, he gives you this, but he

40:19

doesn't give you that. Like, what is he,

40:21

you know, what is going on here? And

40:23

I was like, honey, like. There are two

40:26

ways of looking at the world. You either

40:28

look at the world like a department store

40:30

or like a thrift store. Now,

40:32

a department store, you can go in

40:34

and you can get the little black dress

40:36

that you saw on sale online in

40:38

your size whenever you want, and that's how

40:40

it is. And you can pretend that

40:42

the world is like that, but that's not

40:44

really how the world is. The world

40:47

is really like a thrift shop. You go

40:49

in and you don't know what you're

40:51

gonna find. And if you have your mindset

40:53

on that little black dress that you

40:55

saw online that's in your size, you

40:57

are not going to find it. But

40:59

if you are fixated on only finding

41:01

that, you are not going to be

41:03

able to find the things that appear

41:06

to you. that you may

41:08

be just delighted by that

41:10

you are not expecting, like

41:12

a mushroom -shaped lamp. It's,

41:14

you know, like, so this, this

41:16

is like how, I don't know, it's

41:18

like such a silly way of

41:20

like thinking about it, but like, I

41:22

try to encounter the world and

41:24

life and people like you would a

41:27

thrift store and like being open

41:29

to being pleasantly surprised instead of having

41:31

these very specific expectations that will

41:33

lead to disappointment. My

41:35

mom, was not

41:37

satisfied. She was disappointed. She was looking

41:39

for that black dress in her size. She

41:41

wanted him to say, I was wrong

41:43

and I'm sorry, and I'll do everything in

41:45

my power to make it right. And

41:47

he didn't say any of those things. And

41:51

she wasn't able to hear what

41:53

he was able to say. He

41:56

said that he wanted to be

41:58

a source of healing my life,

42:00

that he didn't want me to

42:03

suffer anymore for what I had

42:05

been through. And

42:07

I heard that. I

42:09

could hear that in a way

42:12

that my mom couldn't. And

42:14

so I came away

42:16

from that experience feeling healed,

42:18

not just by what

42:20

he said, but also by

42:22

the fact that I

42:24

had put myself in a

42:27

position in order to

42:29

hear it. You

42:31

mentioned him being in awe. Frankly,

42:34

I think we all are

42:36

because what I see is

42:38

just a masterclass for the

42:40

rest of us of what

42:42

it means to bridge one

42:44

of the greatest gaps that

42:46

can exist between two humans.

42:48

I mean, it is a

42:50

masterclass in human empathy. You

42:53

know, your book is

42:55

called Free and you've spent

42:58

years searching for freedom

43:00

both from behind bars and

43:02

then after you were

43:04

released and God, I hate that

43:06

this is true, but even recently,

43:08

just for listeners to know, you

43:10

were found guilty of slander for

43:13

statements that you made in the

43:15

days following Meredith's murder. Police interrogated

43:17

you for over 50 hours, over

43:19

five days, and under extreme coercion,

43:21

you ended up implicating your boss

43:24

at the time in the murder

43:26

of Meredith. And

43:28

despite your appeal, despite the fact that

43:30

a European High Court

43:32

found Italy to be in

43:34

violation of your human rights

43:36

during the interrogation, Italy's top

43:38

court still upheld this conviction. In

43:41

2025, this happened. And

43:43

so, I

43:45

mean, like, God,

43:48

it's so frustrating. I'm just

43:50

like, oh my God, it's so frustrating. And so, and

43:52

so what I want to ask Amanda is like, what

43:54

have you learned about freedom? What

43:56

is freedom to you? For

43:58

me, freedom

44:01

means being able to

44:03

see and engage with the

44:05

world with a clear

44:07

mind. Because if you

44:09

are engaging with the world as it

44:12

should be, you are perpetually

44:14

going to be ineffective. You're going to

44:16

encounter obstacles because you're going to be

44:18

thinking about what to do in the

44:20

terms of what you think the world

44:22

should be like and not the world

44:24

as it is. And I think the

44:26

reason why I had such an effective approach

44:30

to Minini was because I

44:32

saw clearly the situation for

44:34

what it was, and that

44:36

gave me a degree of

44:38

freedom of choosing how I

44:40

wanted to engage with it.

44:43

There's a Zen saying, I'm a

44:45

Zen practitioner, that if you

44:47

really, really sit with the world and

44:49

with reality in the present moment and

44:51

you just sit and look at it

44:53

clearly, you'll realize

44:56

that it's okay. It's

44:58

not good. It's not bad.

45:01

It's it's okay. You are okay

45:03

and being okay is a

45:05

great place from which to choose

45:07

how you are going to

45:09

be in the world You're not

45:11

coming from a place of

45:14

fear. You're not coming from a

45:16

place of anger You are

45:18

coming from a place of being

45:20

okay and choosing to be

45:22

your best self in the next

45:25

moment and that makes me

45:27

feel like No matter

45:29

what the external circumstances I'm

45:31

facing are, like I know

45:33

that I am free to

45:35

act the way I want

45:37

to. Despite

46:00

the fact Italy's highest

46:02

court upheld Amanda's slander conviction,

46:05

she won't need to return to prison

46:07

because of the four years she already

46:09

spent wrongfully incarcerated. To

46:11

hear more of Amanda's reflections on motherhood

46:13

and the story of her relationship

46:15

with her prosecutor, check out

46:18

her new book. It's called Free, My

46:20

Search for Meaning. Thanks

46:31

so much for listening. If

46:33

you enjoyed this episode, we in the slight

46:36

change family would so appreciate it if you

46:38

could share it with your family and friends.

46:40

And you can sign up for

46:42

my free newsletter at ChangeWithMaya .com.

46:45

Join me next week when we hear

46:47

from author and podcast host Mel

46:49

Robbins on her battle with control. I

46:52

just started to say let them and

46:54

any moment in my life where things

46:56

just felt stressful traffic, let them. The

46:59

person's rude in front of me. Let

47:01

them. My mom's in a bad mood.

47:03

Let her be in a bad mood.

47:05

And so I just started saying, let

47:07

them, let them, let them. And it

47:09

was so profound. That's

47:11

next week on A Slight Change of

47:13

Plans. A

47:15

Slight Change of Plans is created,

47:18

written, and executive produced by

47:20

Me, Maya Schunker. The Slight Change

47:22

family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our

47:25

senior editor Kate Parkinson -Morgan, our

47:27

producers Brittany Cronin and Megan

47:29

Lubin, and our sound engineer

47:31

Erica Huang. Louise Scarra

47:33

wrote our delightful theme song, and

47:35

Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A

47:38

Slight Change of Plans is a

47:40

production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks

47:42

to everyone there. And of course,

47:44

a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

47:46

You can follow a slight change

47:48

of plans on Instagram at Dr. Maya

47:50

Schunker. See you next week. That

48:12

was my recent episode on the podcast

48:14

A Slight Change of Plans. If you like

48:16

what you heard, you can find more

48:18

from A Slight Change of Plans wherever you

48:21

get your podcasts. Captain's

48:23

Log, star date

48:26

89361 .5 We've

48:28

encountered a fascinating alien

48:30

civilization. The people of

48:32

Patreon Prime are humanoid in

48:34

appearance, but possess vastly greater degrees

48:36

of nuance, compassion, and

48:39

intelligence than any race we

48:41

have so far encountered. But

48:43

what is perhaps most

48:45

striking is their generosity.

48:47

Captain, the warp core is

48:49

going critical. Divert all

48:52

energy to patreon .com slash

48:54

Knox Robinson.