0:00

Hi, I'm Rashma Sojani, founder

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I'd consider myself a pretty

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you get your podcasts. I'm

1:00

Nicola Cocklin and for

1:02

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1:05

History's youngest heroes. Rebellion, Rebellion, power of

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1:09

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1:27

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1:37

Welcome to When It Clicked. I'm

1:39

your host, Ana Zamora, founder

1:41

and CEO of The Just Trust,

1:43

an organization fighting for a

1:45

criminal justice system that works better

1:48

for all of us. In

1:50

this series, I'm talking to

1:52

people from all walks of life

1:55

to ask why they're working

1:57

to transform our justice system. We

2:00

may come to this issue

2:02

for very different reasons, but ultimately,

2:04

we all want the same

2:06

thing, to create safety and opportunities

2:08

for all. Some of my

2:10

guests have made mistakes in the

2:12

past and have been to

2:15

prison. Some have a family member

2:17

who has been to prison,

2:19

like I do. And others are

2:21

driven by human rights, racial

2:23

justice, faith or economics. Whatever their

2:25

reason, all are welcome at

2:27

this table. 17

2:32

years. That's how long Clarence

2:34

Macklin lived behind bars in prison.

2:36

Now he's got a breakout

2:38

role in Sing Sing, a new

2:40

film from A24, where he

2:42

plays a very familiar character, himself.

2:44

In his own life and

2:46

in the movie, Clarence happened upon

2:48

a theater program that would

2:50

change his life forever. I'm so

2:52

excited for Clarence to share

2:54

his story with you, particularly about

2:57

when it all clicked for

2:59

him, when he realized, through his

3:01

acting, that something else

3:03

was possible. It's a lesson

3:05

in looking inward, finding

3:07

yourself by being someone else,

3:09

and the unconventional idea

3:11

that should be way more

3:13

conventional. Treating incarcerated people

3:16

like people can change everything.

3:18

Clarence's story, from prison

3:20

to the big screen, is

3:22

more than a personal

3:24

triumph. It's also a blueprint

3:26

for a better, more

3:28

compassionate justice system. Okay, let's

3:30

get into my conversation with

3:33

Clarence. So,

3:38

I want to start off at

3:40

the beginning. Growing up, what were

3:42

you taught about right and wrong,

3:44

and what did you think about

3:46

the criminal justice system? Well,

3:49

growing up, I was taught right and

3:51

wrong by my mother. And, you

3:53

know, she was really stern about

3:55

it, raising three boys on her

3:57

own. She had a real solid

3:59

moral compass. from the south and coming from

4:01

the church and you know moving to

4:04

New York for economic reasons and but

4:06

she never left she never deviated from

4:08

her values and her morals and her

4:11

principles so coming up I pretty much

4:13

knew rights wrong it's just that circumstances

4:15

put you in a situation where you

4:17

compromise what you know and that's what

4:20

it was because my mother never taught

4:22

me wrong or taught me bad behavior

4:24

those things like I picked up along

4:27

the way. Do you have some memories

4:29

or some stories that you can share

4:31

about kind of a moment or some

4:33

moments when you started to veer away

4:35

from that path that your mom had

4:37

taught you and tried to put you

4:39

on? Yeah, I can remember I could

4:41

remember vividly one one evening where

4:43

it was really, really challenged. The

4:46

morals and principles that my mother

4:48

had given me were challenged by

4:50

circumstances and it was the night

4:52

the evening of the blackout in

4:55

1977, I believe. that evening, you

4:57

know, everybody in my building, the

4:59

whole, everybody was going to loot

5:01

and rob and steal. My mother

5:04

was like, no, we don't do that.

5:06

We don't do that, you know. And

5:08

I was tempted because everybody was going,

5:10

but mom had such a firm grip

5:13

on me at that time that I

5:15

never, I never, uh, bitch and far

5:17

from what she predicted was

5:19

right. Sounds like you had a really

5:22

great mom. Yeah, yeah. It's no

5:24

secret that you spent some time

5:26

in prison. Yes. Inside, if you're

5:28

comfortable, can you talk a little

5:30

bit about how that became part

5:32

of your story? Well, before I

5:35

went into Sing Sing. Sing, I

5:37

was living in North Carolina, Rocky

5:39

Mountain, North Carolina. Are you? Really?

5:42

Yeah. I was living in Rocky

5:44

Mountain, North Carolina. I lived on

5:46

sportsman trail. Yeah, I live right over there.

5:48

My sportsman's trail, Rocky Mountain, me, my

5:50

son's mother, and my daughter's mother, and

5:52

you know, I had a little, I

5:54

came to New York to do some

5:56

school shopping for my brother's kids and

5:58

got caught up in a... in a robbery case,

6:00

you know. Wow, I didn't know that.

6:03

So what were those early days at

6:05

Sing Sing Like for you? So Sing

6:07

Sing, my early days, you know,

6:09

I was already bucking the system

6:11

already, like, you know, still living,

6:13

I might as well be the peace,

6:16

they want me to be. So I

6:18

just started, you know what I mean,

6:20

doing what I do, being in the

6:22

yard and gravitating towards the

6:24

negative aspects of... our culture,

6:26

our history, our music, and

6:28

all the things that we

6:30

invest so much time in,

6:32

but we also, there's also

6:34

a negative aspect to certain

6:37

things, and I was gravitating

6:39

more to that in a resentful way,

6:41

you know, being resentful. And

6:43

coming across the arts, coming

6:45

across rehabilitation through arts, actually...

6:47

turned back on that artistic youth

6:49

that I used to be because

6:52

long before this I was, I

6:54

like to draw, I like to

6:56

paint, I like to create with

6:59

my hands, and that led me

7:01

into doing graffiti, writing graffiti on

7:03

the trains, that led me into

7:06

taking a comic book characters and

7:08

drawing a common book characters and

7:10

creating my own little stories with

7:13

them, you know, but that too

7:15

was considered like a nerd. I'm

7:17

a nerd in my neighborhood. Growing

7:19

up in Mount Vernon, you know,

7:21

going up in Mount Vernon, New

7:23

York, that would be still considered

7:26

kind of like nerdy behavior.

7:28

So, um. I grabbed it towards the popular

7:30

kids. I wanted to be popular. I

7:32

wanted to be, I wanted to be

7:34

one of the in-crowd. So, you know,

7:36

that led me to a negative lifestyle.

7:39

Denying who I really was, the artist

7:41

that I really was. Wow, and now

7:43

you've come full circle. Right, right now,

7:45

I'm back to the artist. I

7:47

love it. You know, it's interesting,

7:49

what you just said, you know,

7:51

you wanted to be part of

7:54

the popular crowd. That is like.

7:56

such a common theme, you know,

7:58

wanting to gravitate towards something else.

8:00

different life, a new set of

8:02

friends, and then things can

8:04

go downhill really quickly from

8:06

there. Right. So in the movie

8:09

Sing Sing, you know. You really

8:11

do, you're, I mean, you're playing

8:13

yourself. A version, a version, sure.

8:15

You really do see that harder

8:17

self, you know, that harder part

8:19

of you before you got involved

8:21

in the theater program. Yes. I

8:23

want to dig into that a

8:25

little bit. Like, how did that

8:28

feel for you? You know, you

8:30

were outwardly portraying. hardness, but what

8:32

did it feel like inside? Inside

8:34

it felt like I was revisiting

8:36

a place that I really didn't,

8:38

you know, I'm glad I'm in

8:40

control at this time around while

8:42

I'm revisited because at the first,

8:44

the onset, I was really not

8:46

in control. Like I was letting

8:48

environment dictate action. rather than

8:50

now in this situation. I'm

8:53

telling the story, I'm being,

8:55

I am being the character

8:57

that I need to be

8:59

to get the story told,

9:01

however I could come out

9:03

of this anytime I want

9:05

to. Fair enough. Okay, I

9:07

want to, we've talked a

9:09

little bit about rehabilitation through

9:11

the arts or RTA as

9:13

it is called. Incredible program.

9:15

You know, I've heard this

9:17

great story that you've shared

9:19

in other interviews about how

9:22

you found out about the

9:24

rehabilitation through the arts program.

9:26

Basically, it's from what I

9:28

know you went to a

9:30

prison chapel and kind of

9:32

stumbled into a rehearsal or

9:34

something. Can you tell me that's

9:36

it? was I was going to

9:38

the yard that night to do

9:40

some other things. However, the yard

9:42

got closed down because of a

9:44

thunder and lightning storm. So we

9:46

diverted. Everybody met up at the

9:48

chapel because that's the only thing

9:50

open where we all could get in. So

9:53

we all get in. We get in here.

9:55

Now there's no early go back. You got

9:57

to stay for the whole thing. You can't

9:59

leave. in there and I'm recognizing

10:01

guys on the stage. I'm

10:04

recognizing these guys from different parts of

10:06

the jail and it's guys that I

10:08

respect for different reasons are not not

10:10

putting on plays. I don't know these

10:12

guys for this right here but I'm

10:14

like Dino Johnson. I'm seeing up here.

10:16

I'm seeing my boy Shorty King. I'm

10:18

seeing a lot of guys that I

10:20

didn't know but now they're up on

10:22

stage in there in a whole different

10:24

capacity in it and it's somehow

10:26

triggered and it was a lot of

10:29

volunteers up on stage. There was a lot

10:31

of people up there and they were having

10:33

a great time and they was creating some

10:35

art and it turned on the

10:37

artists back in me and I wanted to

10:39

I need I got to be a part of

10:41

this. I need how do I sign up?

10:43

How do I get up on this stage? I

10:45

wanted to be a part of that but

10:47

you know I had to wait a whole year

10:49

because you couldn't have

10:51

any tickets, any infractions, can't

10:53

get in any trouble or anything

10:55

and at that point I

10:58

was getting a lot of trouble.

11:01

I was a handful at the time

11:03

so I had to wait a

11:05

whole year and then I finally get

11:07

in. So I finally get in the

11:09

program now. No tickets, nothing. I'm

11:11

good, I'm clear and I get in

11:13

and I get a part and

11:15

somebody drops out of a play. They

11:18

come to me and say do I want to roll? Yes,

11:20

I do. I get in. Now,

11:23

mind you, I have no

11:25

lines. Hey,

11:30

you gotta get a start somewhere. I'm

11:32

up on stage. It's

11:34

an Elizabethian period play

11:36

so it's very colorful

11:39

and I'm posturing and

11:41

posturing and then the director

11:43

Peter Barbiero he says listen, you

11:45

post it really well. He gave me

11:47

two lines. He gave me two

11:49

lines and that was it. That was

11:51

it. Now I got bit by

11:53

the buck. I want to be the

11:56

lead now. I need more lines

11:58

now. Oh, I know the feeling. theater

12:00

nerd myself and I know the

12:02

feeling once you get that first line,

12:04

just want more. The transformation that

12:06

takes place in the movie of going

12:08

from one mindset to another, that's

12:10

a real transformation that took place for

12:13

me with me while I was

12:15

in prison. And

12:17

a large part of it is

12:19

due to the arts and

12:21

another part of it is due

12:23

to the education that combined

12:25

because at the time I was

12:27

doing rehabilitation through the arts,

12:29

I was also getting my degree

12:31

in behavioral science. So the

12:33

two go hand in hand for

12:35

me. They just worked so

12:37

well together. These two programs are

12:39

what really brought me into

12:41

the light and to the truth

12:43

of what my destiny should

12:46

be, what I should be doing

12:48

as far as storytelling. This

12:50

is my thing. And I would

12:52

have never knew that had

12:54

but for finding the stage and

12:56

getting around these remarkable brothers

12:58

and these remarkable volunteers that came

13:00

in and that was the

13:02

springboard into college because many of

13:04

the brothers that was in

13:06

RTA were also in the college

13:08

programs. Yeah, that's incredible. I

13:10

want to back up a little

13:12

bit though. So after you

13:14

got into the program, it sounds

13:16

like you worked really hard

13:18

for a whole year to stay

13:20

out of trouble. I did.

13:23

You get into the program. You

13:25

get your first roles. Was

13:27

there a particular moment when you

13:29

started to see a different

13:31

future for yourself? I think that

13:33

the most specific time I

13:35

could give you is when I

13:37

did Oedipus Rex. Great play.

13:39

When I did Oedipus Rex and

13:41

I began to understand the

13:43

parallels like between this character and

13:45

me, like how he ran.

13:47

He ran from his, he ran

13:49

from a prediction that was

13:51

a set of him. And

13:54

I began to see a lot

13:56

of times in my life, even

13:58

though I might lash out and

14:00

And it's really me running from

14:02

it. It's really I'm running from

14:05

whatever it is. I might not

14:07

be physically just physically leaving. I

14:09

mean, I mentally depart from that. I

14:11

mentally run from that. And I

14:13

may disguise it with an anger or

14:15

I might disguise it with something

14:17

else, but it's really me not wanting

14:19

to deal with that. So once

14:22

you can see these things, now we

14:24

go work on it now. If

14:26

you never see it, you never get a chance

14:29

to work on it. Yeah. Wow, and

14:31

Oedipus Rex did that for you. I love that.

14:33

Yeah, Oedipus Rex did that for me.

14:35

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19:02

think a lot of people

19:04

have this idea that people

19:06

who have been incarcerated don't

19:08

deserve or can't benefit from

19:10

rehabilitation programs like this one

19:12

or even arts programs in

19:14

general. So I'm curious, if

19:16

you were talking to somebody

19:18

right now that said incarcerated

19:20

people don't deserve a theater

19:22

program like RTA, what would

19:24

you say to those people? How

19:28

would you convince them otherwise? I

19:30

would convince them by showing them

19:32

how society deserves for people in

19:34

prison to be in programs like

19:36

this because these people are coming home.

19:38

We're gonna come home. Who do

19:40

you want on a grocery store line

19:42

with you? Who do you want

19:44

bringing his kids to the park to

19:46

play with your kids? Who do

19:48

you want? Do you want somebody who's

19:51

been through theater programs and college

19:53

programs and investing in themself and trying

19:55

to be a better person to

19:57

come back and be a contribution to

19:59

society rather - and a detriment, or

20:01

do you want somebody that just

20:03

spend the yard and do nothing

20:06

for 10 years, but think about

20:08

what he gonna do when he

20:10

get out? No preparation, no plan,

20:12

no nothing. Who is society

20:14

deserving of having to come home?

20:17

What do you deserve to have come

20:19

home? I love that answer. So

20:21

what else do you feel like

20:23

you learned? What skills did you

20:25

bring home with you after being

20:28

a part of this program? One

20:30

of the main skills that

20:32

I learned was listening.

20:34

Communication. Like seeing a

20:36

communication is not just

20:39

you talking. It's also

20:41

listening. And you know.

20:43

meeting somebody and, you know,

20:45

coming halfway, like, and not

20:47

always having to agree or

20:50

not always having to be

20:52

agreed with. You know, sometimes

20:54

some ideas may take a

20:56

little more time for both of

20:58

us. You both might not

21:00

come to a conclusion today.

21:02

And that's okay. That's okay.

21:04

I gotta say, I think

21:07

a lot of people who

21:09

haven't been to prison need

21:11

to learn how to listen

21:14

better. Okay, I want to

21:16

talk about. Sing Sing the movie

21:18

because it is so exciting It's

21:20

so different than any other film

21:22

set in prison than I've seen

21:24

and I've seen a lot of

21:26

them And I have to imagine

21:28

that making this film meant revisiting

21:30

some pretty intense memories for you

21:33

Were there moments during the film

21:35

that really hit close to home

21:37

scenes that brought up particularly powerful

21:39

emotions? I'd love to hear a

21:41

little bit about that Oh yeah there

21:43

was a few I could bring to

21:45

mind really quickly and I'm sure you're

21:47

going to identify the circle when they say

21:50

everybody close your eyes and go

21:52

to that place. That's an actual

21:54

exercise that we devised because we

21:56

noticed that after after production a

21:58

lot of the men have crash

22:00

period like after all the hype after

22:02

being in the play reduction the

22:04

applause the lights and everything the last

22:06

night when it goes away and

22:08

you go right back to yourself and

22:10

you become 96 87997

22:12

again is a

22:15

crash so we devised a lot of

22:17

program a lot a lot of exercises

22:19

to deal with that and that was one

22:21

of those things and it was real

22:23

emotional for me because I've seen how I

22:25

see how in in really in

22:27

real life how those exercises

22:29

actually save lives and help

22:31

men. It's so powerful and so

22:33

beautiful. I love that. I know

22:35

you've spoken before about how you

22:37

didn't really see yourself in other

22:39

movies that depicted prison and how

22:41

important it was for syncing to

22:43

really shine a light on the

22:45

prison population in a way that

22:48

really hasn't been done before in

22:50

the media. So I'm curious what's

22:52

one misconception about incarcerated people that

22:54

you wish people could understand? Everyone

22:57

in prison is exactly alike like

22:59

everyone is carrying a shank or

23:01

everyone is trying to rape somebody

23:03

or everybody is manipulative. I'm not

23:05

saying that those people don't exist

23:07

in that those people exist out

23:09

here too. They exist

23:12

everywhere but I'm just

23:14

saying that that's not the only thing

23:16

that's going on in every prison.

23:18

There's a segment of population

23:20

of people who are genuinely

23:22

trying to better themselves. I've been

23:24

the same with men who

23:26

are not coming home but

23:29

they focus on bettering themselves not

23:31

for themselves for people

23:34

that are still in their lives that

23:36

are not in prison. They

23:38

want to better themselves for

23:40

somebody else and in every

23:43

every prison there's a segment

23:45

of population that feels this way

23:47

and the light never gets cast

23:49

on them. The light gets cast

23:51

on the violence or the corruption

23:53

either the violence of the prisoners

23:56

or the corruption of the prison

23:58

guards. That seems to be the only

24:00

segment of population that gets any attention

24:02

in prison. You never hear about the

24:04

beautiful artwork that's being produced in prison

24:07

and being sold. You never hear about

24:09

these things because those are beautiful people

24:11

that created that beautiful work. And all

24:13

the hard work that goes on in

24:16

prison. To your point, people working hard

24:18

to transform their lives. Those stories are

24:20

so rarely told and I think that's

24:22

one of the most. powerful things about

24:24

this movie. All right, I want to

24:27

turn now to a topic that's really

24:29

important to me and something that I

24:31

think that our criminal justice system, our

24:33

prison system, must do a lot better.

24:36

job, which is rehabilitation. So you've talked

24:38

about, you've talked before about how for

24:40

you personally, art gives you permission to

24:42

peel back layers of trauma and hardship.

24:45

Tell me a little bit more about

24:47

what you meant by that. What I

24:49

mean is that. Trauma only compiles on

24:51

itself. Like if you never address it,

24:53

you're just gonna add a layer of

24:56

trauma on top of trauma you already

24:58

was dealing with it. But through art,

25:00

you get to peel back these layers

25:02

and live these experiences through somebody else's

25:05

life, through somebody else's footsteps. This is

25:07

the real reason why I believe theater

25:09

was created in the first place, was

25:11

to show you that you're not the

25:14

only one going through, whatever it is

25:16

you go. You know, this is a

25:18

human condition, so human people are gonna

25:20

happen. similar experiences all throughout history. This

25:23

is why we learn from art. This

25:25

is how we can learn social things

25:27

from art. We can learn how to

25:29

be better towards one another socially through

25:31

art. You know, this is the, this

25:34

is what I mean. That's not for

25:36

one individual, like need to peel back

25:38

the layers, but collectively we're going to

25:40

have some layers that peel back too.

25:43

That's right. You know, we're going to

25:45

have to peel back some layers collectively

25:47

as well. We have

25:49

our own little layers

25:52

that we have

25:54

to feel back on

25:56

our own, but

25:58

collectively there's some things

26:00

that we may

26:03

have to peel back

26:05

in order to

26:07

heal society. 100%, I

26:09

agree with you. Then we can do it through art. Yeah,

26:12

yeah. I mean, acting

26:14

literally allows you the opportunity to

26:16

live in someone else's shoes,

26:18

which I think is a powerful

26:21

learning experience. Okay, it is

26:23

very clear that theater had a

26:25

profound impact on you and

26:27

continues to have a profound impact

26:29

on you today. But as

26:32

you said, people in prison are

26:34

different. Right. And so I

26:36

would assume that other people respond

26:38

differently to other programs. So

26:40

I'm curious, what other rehabilitation programs

26:42

do you know about that you

26:44

saw being helpful for other folks that

26:47

maybe didn't want to act? Well,

26:49

I see

26:51

people benefiting from a lot of

26:53

the programs in prison, depending on how

26:55

much you're willing to put in

26:57

to yourself. People may benefit from a

26:59

drug program because they have drug

27:01

problems. They may not want to act

27:04

or anything. This might not benefit,

27:06

it might not address the initial

27:08

problem. But the two programs

27:10

that I've seen that was the

27:12

most beneficial to me was

27:14

rehabilitation through the arts, top first

27:16

and foremost, and Hudson Link, the

27:19

college program that afforded me

27:21

to get my education. Because

27:23

with these two programs, hand

27:25

in hand, I began

27:27

to really, really

27:29

travel the world from myself.

27:32

Right from myself, I've been

27:34

around the whole world already, just

27:37

from being able to read

27:39

about it, picture it in my mind and

27:41

then hit the stage and act it

27:43

out too. I was already free a long

27:45

time ago. It's

27:47

amazing. Now I want to

27:50

talk about another thing that

27:52

I'm really interested in understanding

27:54

better and that my organization,

27:56

The Just Trust, looks at

27:58

a lot, which is... this idea

28:00

that people should be held accountable

28:02

for their actions. But I think

28:05

that we need to think very

28:07

differently about what accountability is and

28:09

how it happens. I don't personally

28:11

believe that accountability always just equals

28:13

punishment. So I'm curious, what does

28:15

true accountability mean to you and

28:18

how can our prison system actually

28:20

help people choose a different path

28:22

like you did instead of just

28:24

punishing them? I think education with

28:26

me for me is going to

28:29

always be the first step in

28:31

any type of anybody taking accountability

28:33

for their own actions. Because if

28:35

you don't really, if you really

28:37

don't understand, if you really don't

28:39

understand the value of what you

28:42

did or the value of what

28:44

you took, you know, then it's

28:46

going to be really hard for

28:48

you to really be accountable because

28:50

you have no value, you don't

28:53

have the value system intact. That

28:55

has to be addressed first. You

28:57

know, not to say that anyone

28:59

gets off the hook because you

29:01

don't know, that's not what I'm

29:03

saying at all. I'm saying. Punishment,

29:06

of course, because we all grown

29:08

and we always have to have,

29:10

but levels of punishment, after certain

29:12

levels of punishment, you're only going

29:14

to make a person numb. And

29:16

if that's what you look for,

29:19

you want a zombie to come

29:21

home, somebody that is capable of

29:23

doing anything under sound with no

29:25

moral compass at all. I don't

29:27

think that's what we need. I

29:30

think that we need, in order

29:32

to even approach accountability, we have

29:34

to make sure that everybody is

29:36

mentally capable. Yes, for accountability. That's

29:38

right. You know, we got to

29:40

expand this community. We got to

29:43

bring these walls down because even

29:45

though the community inside prison is

29:47

a part of this community too.

29:49

That's right. It's just a microcosm

29:51

of a macrocosm. That's right. And

29:54

it also happens to be mothers

29:56

and fathers and sisters. Literally

29:58

part of our

30:00

family There's

30:03

no way you're just gonna you can't

30:05

just lock them up leave them over there,

30:07

and you think everyone's gonna forget about

30:09

us That's not how this is gonna work.

30:11

We're part of the community, too This

30:25

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32:17

BBC podcasts, produced by Lemonada and

32:19

the BBC. What

32:25

did it feel like watching this movie

32:27

and seeing your own story depicted on

32:30

the big screen? What did that

32:32

feel like? crazy. Man, it's

32:34

crazy to see it. To see

32:36

people, to see people, the

32:38

way people are receiving it is

32:40

so crazy. I snuck to

32:43

the Angelica one time to watch the movie. We

32:45

are sat in the back. I'm

32:47

watching people as they come by. Certain

32:49

people are like, that looks like them. That

32:51

looks like them. And

32:55

then one lady comes up and

32:57

she shakes my hands. She says,

32:59

you did a great job in

33:01

the movie. And after that, I

33:03

was swarmed. Now I'm taking your

33:05

pictures. I'm talking to people. Everybody's

33:08

loving it. And that was one

33:10

of the best feelings to just

33:12

be able to cause those type

33:14

of emotions to make people really

33:16

enjoy themselves in that story, to

33:18

get lost in my story. And

33:22

do you think or have you

33:24

heard from people that watching Sing

33:26

Sing and seeing your story has helped

33:28

them change their mind about

33:31

prison? Yes, I've had people tell

33:33

me, they hit my Instagram

33:35

and they tell me that

33:37

they already had a loved one that's

33:39

locked up, an uncle I believe. He's locked

33:41

up for a number of years. They

33:43

didn't go see him. They wrote him off.

33:45

Nobody checked him for him. So now

33:47

after the movie, they say, let me go

33:49

check and see what he's doing. Let

33:51

me just go see. And after you go

33:53

see him, you find a totally different

33:55

man here now. You found that man that

33:58

you always wanted him to be. but

34:00

you roll them up and

34:02

after the movie, but see those

34:04

type of connecting stories are

34:06

the ones we're doing for. That's

34:08

right. I love hearing that.

34:10

Okay, throughout this conversation, I've noticed

34:12

a really important theme here,

34:14

which is storytelling, and it is

34:16

clearly very important to you

34:18

and you're a natural storyteller, especially

34:20

when stories can make positive

34:23

change and shine a light on

34:25

people who don't always get

34:27

the spotlight. So when you think

34:29

about what's next, what kind

34:31

of stories do you wanna start

34:33

telling moving forward? Oh man,

34:35

I wanna do a little bit

34:37

of everything. I wanna do

34:39

some Western. Ooh. I wanna do

34:41

some Shakespeare. Yes. I wanna

34:43

do a romantic comedy. I

34:46

wanna do it all. You wanna do

34:48

it all. If you

34:50

need any help with the Shakespeare,

34:52

I'm your gal. All right. Please call

34:54

on me. God. All right, my

34:56

friend. Before we wrap up, I just

34:59

gotta ask one last question. Yeah.

35:01

Which is, what was it like to

35:03

work with Coleman Domingo and now

35:05

to be a star yourself? Walking on

35:07

red carpets? I mean, tell me

35:09

about what Hollywood life is like. And

35:11

listen, Coleman Domingo is a true

35:13

gentleman, man. He's a great guy from

35:15

the beginning, from the door. I

35:17

mean, when we first met, we met

35:19

over Zoom's. We met over Zoom's,

35:21

we bonded, they got to know one

35:23

another, even did a few rehearsals

35:26

of scripts over Zoom and what convinced

35:28

me was, I would be in

35:30

New York, he's in LA driving a

35:32

car and I'm going through, I'm

35:34

getting stuck on a line or whatever

35:36

and he'll pull over to the

35:38

side of the road to help me

35:40

get through that. And

35:42

then, so that type of commitment

35:44

and dedication gotta be met. Like you

35:46

can't just let him be the

35:48

only one doing it. And plus, you

35:50

know, his birthday's a day before

35:52

mine. November 28th, I'm November 29th. So

35:54

it's like - I'm November 27th. Get

35:56

out. November

35:59

27th. Oh, happy -

36:01

Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Sagittarius

36:05

in the house. It's

36:07

a sad thing. Well,

36:11

it sounds like Coleman is

36:13

not only an exceptional actor, which

36:15

he is. I'm such a

36:17

fan. But it sounds like he

36:19

is an incredibly decent human

36:21

being and really committed, so that's

36:23

great to hear. And very

36:25

creative. Yeah. Always creating.

36:27

And he's great guy. Nice.

36:31

Oh, thank you so much, Clarence. This was

36:33

such a wonderful conversation. I want to

36:35

keep talking to you, but we're at time

36:37

and that was amazing. Oh, thank you so

36:39

much for having me. Thanks

36:50

for listening to When It

36:52

Clicked. You can learn more

36:54

about rehabilitation through the arts

36:56

at rta -arts .org. And I

36:58

encourage you to go see

37:01

Sing Sing wherever you can.

37:03

When It Clicked is a

37:05

production of Lemonada Media and

37:07

the Just Trust. I'm your

37:09

host, Anna Zamora. Hannah Boomerstein

37:11

is our producer. Muna Danish

37:14

is our senior producer. Ivan

37:16

Korayev is our audio engineer

37:18

with additional engineering support from Johnny

37:20

Vince Evans. Music is

37:22

from APM. Jackie Danziger is

37:24

our VP of partnerships

37:26

and production. Executive producers are

37:28

Jessica Cordova -Cramer and Stephanie

37:30

Whittles -Wax. Follow When It

37:32

Clicked wherever you get

37:34

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your prime membership. Hello,

37:50

everyone. Gloria Riviera here. And we

37:52

are back for another season of

37:54

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37:56

Us, a podcast about America's childcare

37:58

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38:01

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38:09

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38:11

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38:13

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