0:00

Leadership isn't always about titles, it's

0:03

about skills. By learning

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to communicate effectively, build trust, and

0:07

inspire your colleagues, you

0:09

can be seen as a leader regardless of

0:12

your job description. Join over

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2 million learners taking leadership

0:16

courses on udemy.com. Welcome

0:35

to Leading Up with Udemy, your guide to

0:38

developing your skills as an emerging or seasoned

0:40

leader. I'm Kelli Schwartz, Senior

0:42

Digital Marketing Manager at Udemy, and for

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seven seasons, I've been working on Leading

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Up behind the scenes. Today,

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I'm excited to bring this special

0:51

Best of episode where we are

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revisiting some of the most impactful

0:55

leadership insights from throughout our past

0:57

seven seasons, including how to

0:59

lead from the middle, building a

1:01

strong company culture, and the

1:03

importance of continuous learning. First

1:06

up is Dave Potrick, former CEO

1:08

of Charles Schwab. He

1:10

dives into how humility and patience are

1:12

key to earning trust when you're leading

1:14

without the formal title of leader or

1:16

manager. He unpacks the

1:19

power of building trust, mastering emotional

1:21

intelligence, and empowering others to shine.

1:24

Let's get started. Well,

1:30

first, as part of a team, I

1:32

needed to learn what I

1:34

call leading from the middle, where

1:37

you're not the official leader,

1:40

someone else is the leader, but

1:42

you are sort of gathering the

1:44

team around you to take

1:46

the hill, to take the next challenge, to

1:49

accomplish whatever it is you

1:51

need to accomplish, and your role

1:53

modeling, the behavior everyone else needs

1:55

to be a part of. You're

1:58

asking questions rather than...

2:00

and trying to answer all the questions

2:02

so that other people have a chance

2:04

to also be a part of the

2:07

process of going forward. And

2:09

so this leading from the middle, before

2:11

you're the leader, is

2:13

something you need to learn to do, to

2:15

earn to be worthy of then

2:18

getting the official title of

2:20

being a leader. Yeah, so a

2:22

lot of people listening are not

2:25

leaders, but they aspire to leadership,

2:27

right? So they're there, they're working.

2:30

And so a lot of what you talked about, I

2:33

want to know how does that fit in

2:35

today's organization, where it's a matrix organization that

2:37

you work on all these different

2:39

teams. You have to influence people from all over

2:41

the company to just get your job done. This

2:44

whole idea that you call leading from

2:46

the middle, like are there some

2:48

techniques or some things that you did that

2:51

people could apply tomorrow? Yeah,

2:53

I think so. And let me say

2:55

that I wasn't always good at this.

2:58

I wanted to lead from the front, and

3:01

leading from the middle requires a

3:03

certain degree of humility. It requires

3:05

a certain degree of patience. But

3:08

the more I could learn patience

3:11

to put it in practice, and the more

3:13

I could practice and embrace

3:16

humility, then the better I

3:18

did. If you're trying so hard

3:20

to be the leader that you sort of jump

3:22

in front and say, follow me, everybody

3:24

resents you. They don't want

3:27

to follow me kind of guy who's not

3:29

really the leader. They want

3:31

someone who's asking the great questions

3:33

and letting other people shine as

3:35

they answer the questions. Helping

3:38

others promote themselves, enabling

3:40

others to succeed is

3:42

how you earn the right

3:44

to step forward and be recognized.

3:46

And it's a subtle thing. And

3:50

as the person actually doing it, it's

3:53

easy to worry, gee, am I being

3:55

recognized? But if you have someone

3:57

leading your team who knows what they're doing,

4:00

they know who's actually leading

4:02

from the middle to help that team

4:04

move forward. And that's how you earn

4:07

those promotions. And as I started

4:09

to learn about this more and more,

4:11

I did better and I

4:13

moved forward much more easily. But

4:17

sometimes it boils down to this idea of being

4:19

a role model and that you want to demonstrate

4:22

the kinds of behaviors that

4:24

you want others to

4:26

exhibit as well. And if

4:28

that means, for example, even

4:31

though you now are the leader, you're the leader of

4:34

a group, and you don't

4:36

have to ask questions because you already got the

4:38

job. So now you can tell everybody all the

4:40

time what you want them to do and why

4:42

and blah, blah, blah. But the

4:44

truth of the matter is you still could ask

4:47

a lot of questions and give other people a

4:49

chance to shine. You can role

4:51

model the kind of behavior. If you want

4:53

people to ask questions so that they lead

4:56

from the middle, show them what that looks

4:58

like and ask questions.

5:00

Let people on your team stand

5:03

up and talk about how they came

5:05

to believe things. Give

5:07

them a chance to be the leader

5:09

in the moment. And

5:11

I think that means you've

5:13

got to kind of put the leader

5:15

ego in your pocket a little. And

5:17

this was something that, when I became

5:20

the leader, was not easy for me.

5:22

I was so happy now. Oh, I'm

5:24

the leader. I get to give all

5:26

the speeches and say everything and do

5:28

all this stuff. And part of how

5:30

I got to understand this was when

5:32

I became the co-CEO at

5:35

Schwab, Chuck actually hated giving

5:37

speeches. And one of

5:39

the reasons he hated giving speeches was because

5:41

he was dyslexic. He

5:43

couldn't even read notes very well. So

5:46

he always worried about screwing

5:48

up. So I said to

5:50

Chuck, look, look, here's what we're going to do. We're

5:53

going to do what I would call sort of a

5:56

fireside chat. And you and I are going to sit

5:58

on the stage together. I'm going

6:00

to ask you questions and you're just going

6:02

to speak from the heart. It'll

6:05

be so much better than a speech truck because

6:07

it'll be what you really believe, and

6:09

everybody will be so inspired by that."

6:12

He said, okay, I'll give it a try. We

6:15

did that the first time, and

6:17

he loved it. He loved doing it because

6:19

he did shine. He is and

6:21

was a very genuine guy

6:24

who was really passionate about doing

6:26

the right thing for the customer.

6:29

Of course, now here I am,

6:31

I'm not telling anyone anything, I'm

6:33

just asking the questions. Everybody

6:36

respected me even that much more because

6:39

I wasn't the teller, I was the

6:41

asker, and Chuck was shining.

6:43

I was up there creating

6:45

that platform for him. I

6:48

think that was some of our finest moments

6:50

together. From

6:55

Baby Boomers and Gen X to

6:57

Millennial and Gen Z, there are

6:59

four generations currently at work today,

7:01

each with their own career goals,

7:03

motivators, and communication styles. Build

7:06

a thriving multi-generational workforce with

7:08

shared skills and values using

7:11

Udemy's customizable learning solutions. Learn

7:15

more at

7:17

business.udemy.com/generation. Up

7:25

next is Brandon Carson, head of learning at

7:27

Starbucks, who explores how a strong learning culture

7:30

can shape a company. He

7:32

emphasizes leadership principles like trust, transparency,

7:34

and autonomy, which foster a critical

7:37

sense of belonging on teams. As

7:40

for AI, he believes its role isn't

7:42

just to make humans better at work,

7:44

but to make work better for humans,

7:46

all while preserving what makes us humans

7:48

and not machines, like our

7:50

creativity, unpredictability, and adaptability.

7:54

So no two companies are exactly alike, but

7:56

a key differentiator for companies is whether they

7:58

have what I call a culture of learning.

8:01

And by that, I mean, do they

8:03

value the growth and development of their

8:05

workforce? Do they invest in their people?

8:08

And this isn't about the company culture

8:10

itself. It's about whether the company sees

8:12

itself as a learning company. Does

8:15

it foster innovation, curiosity, and what I

8:17

refer to as scalable learning, which is

8:19

a focus on how the organization can

8:22

learn faster at scale, which in the

8:24

age of AI is an imperative. So

8:27

when a company is not a culture

8:29

of learning, a transactional approach to training just

8:31

for the job role is the norm.

8:34

But as it applies to the broader company

8:36

culture, I'm a strong

8:38

believer in the profound impact culture

8:40

has across the workforce. I've

8:42

survived challenging ones and I've thrived in great

8:44

ones. Your company culture impacts

8:47

every aspect of the company and

8:49

its performance. It must be nurtured,

8:51

protected, and carried by everyone at

8:53

the company. It is the

8:56

leading indicator of employee engagement, productivity,

8:58

and the overall success of

9:00

the organization. But you know, company culture

9:02

is also a funny thing. It's

9:05

often hard to outwardly describe, but

9:07

very noticeable when it breaks down.

9:10

So the old saying goes that culture eats strategy

9:12

for breakfast and throughout my career, I've seen it

9:15

and lived it. And leaders have a

9:17

special responsibility to be stewards of the

9:19

culture, add to it, and also advance

9:21

it and make their decisions based

9:23

on the company's values. Yeah, so

9:26

let's say you don't have a C-suite title and you

9:28

don't even have a team to manage. How can you

9:31

be a good steward of

9:33

company culture? Yeah, that's a good question,

9:35

Alan. I believe leaders have

9:37

an amplified role to play in carrying

9:39

the culture, but the company

9:41

culture is just not in the

9:43

purview of the leaders. Culture is

9:45

created and maintained by the behaviors,

9:48

attitudes, and actions of all

9:50

employees. Culture comes alive when

9:53

all employees celebrate the successes of others

9:55

or when they listen and support

9:57

each other in failure, when they

9:59

act as a team. participate in

10:01

company events and initiatives. And when employees

10:03

recognize when culture change is needed, they

10:07

advocate for that change. So

10:09

like I said, it's important for leaders to

10:11

be stewards and to carry the culture, but

10:13

it's a responsibility of everyone to

10:15

advance the culture. The principles that

10:17

matter to me and that I really try

10:20

to foster in leaders that I develop and

10:22

that our team develops is

10:26

really around trust, transparency, and

10:28

autonomy. I

10:30

believe those principles foster

10:32

a sense of belonging on teams, which

10:34

right now is probably

10:36

more critical than at any other

10:39

point in time, frankly, coming out

10:41

of not just the pandemic that

10:44

we had, but you conflate that with the

10:46

tech tsunami we've been under for the last

10:49

two decades and this really

10:51

exponential advancement of everything

10:53

going on around us, this fire hose of

10:56

information, and just to

10:58

absorb that complexity and the complications that

11:00

come from that. So

11:02

these principles of trust, transparency, and

11:05

autonomy are foundational in

11:07

a lot of ways to simply be inhuman in

11:09

this complex world of work, but

11:12

add to that purpose. So

11:15

purpose is also a key leadership principle

11:18

and purpose at work goes deeper and

11:20

will outlast the product or service you're

11:22

creating or selling or business goal you're

11:24

striving to achieve. Purpose is

11:27

the why you do what you do.

11:30

And as a leader, I see it as critical

11:32

to what I do to help

11:34

those on my team find meaning and purpose in

11:37

their work. And it's not always possible, but

11:39

it's something that people want

11:41

to feel about the work they

11:43

do. And I think a

11:46

lot of that realization or that elevation of

11:48

meaning and purpose in the work is

11:50

coming out of the era

11:53

we're in right now and the

11:55

times we're in. And so I find those things

11:58

to be most likely for... or leader to

12:00

be able to create a condition of psychological

12:02

safety on their team, which is really important

12:05

for a high-performing team to be able to

12:07

come together and deliver on what they need

12:09

to deliver on. But in

12:11

this age, our job is not to make

12:13

humans better at work, but

12:16

to make work better for humans.

12:19

So how we implement AI should

12:21

be in service to elevating the

12:23

human experience and ensuring that we

12:25

preserve what is uniquely human, our

12:27

creativity, our unpredictability, our adaptability, our

12:30

need to connect to each other.

12:33

So most work, as we know in the future,

12:35

will be done in teams. So

12:37

human connection is the most critical aspect of the

12:39

future of work. So I

12:41

like to think of it as we will be tech

12:43

enabled, yes, but we are

12:45

at the inflection point of being tech enabled

12:47

and people led, or

12:50

the inverse, which is too dystopian

12:52

to really imagine. So that's

12:54

why I think every company should have their people

12:56

practice in the conversation

12:59

with how AI is implemented across

13:02

the organization and not just let the

13:04

tech group or

13:06

the IT function lead that conversation. To

13:12

wrap up, we have Johan Leville, Chief

13:14

Learning Officer at Merck, who highlights why

13:16

great leaders never stop learning. Reflecting

13:19

on his leadership journey, Johan underscores

13:21

the importance of building trust through

13:24

effective communication, understanding leadership

13:26

blind spots, and honing

13:28

leadership as a skill that anyone can develop.

13:31

He emphasizes the role leaders play in fostering

13:33

an environment where others can grow into new

13:35

opportunities, making leadership an opportunity

13:38

for all, not just the select

13:40

few who raise their hands for it. As

13:45

I think about my journey and things I had

13:47

to focus on, there are a couple

13:49

of areas that come to mind. One is just building

13:51

trust. You have to build trust

13:53

because just imagine you're trying to take an

13:55

entire team on a journey with you. In

13:58

order to build trust... You have to make

14:01

sure you are an effective communicator. What you

14:03

will see is a lot of folks who

14:05

struggle with effective communication, both verbally and written,

14:08

really struggle with their teams. Now,

14:11

here's the part that I think is an

14:13

area that everyone should really think of.

14:15

That is balancing the idea of task

14:18

versus people management. There

14:21

is a fine line between attempting

14:23

to achieve all of your goals

14:26

and doing them efficiently and on time versus

14:29

managing and leading the people and

14:32

understanding their needs, which you will

14:34

require in terms of that

14:36

diversity of thought, diversity of skill to help

14:39

you as a leader be successful. Then

14:41

every leader, I think, at some point in

14:43

their career struggles of this one, that is

14:45

managing conflict. The idea

14:48

is, how do you understand? First

14:50

of all, what is conflict? How

14:53

do you develop the skills along

14:55

the way to understand how to

14:57

effectively negotiate the idea of managing

14:59

conflict between team members and also

15:01

between your peers at the leadership

15:03

level? Sometimes, they actually find it

15:05

difficult to maybe take in all of the

15:10

detail required to jump in and jump

15:12

off the cliff. Knowing

15:15

what leadership categories you fall in,

15:17

you understand yourself, you figure out

15:19

your blind spots, and that allows

15:21

you to even be a better leader. I

15:23

encourage everyone to take some time and

15:26

just jump in and do a

15:28

search and just learn about the

15:31

different leadership styles that exist today.

15:33

But challenge yourself to continuously improve

15:35

after you identify your values. I

15:38

think your values really guide your decisions

15:40

and actions as a leader. Even

15:43

myself, every once in a while, I

15:45

will write down my core values and

15:49

reflect on them to determine if they

15:51

align with the leadership style that I

15:53

currently rely on. As

15:55

I mentioned, even try to understand some of the blind spots

15:57

I need to cover. blind

16:00

spots and charismatic leadership. The way you

16:02

describe it, it sounds like having

16:05

a vision and maybe not

16:07

getting all of the information. Do you have

16:09

any advice for building a team or surrounding

16:11

yourself with people? Do they compliment your skills?

16:13

Do they have the same skills as you?

16:16

Yeah. If you look at my team today, and

16:18

any teams that I've built, they are extremely

16:21

diverse. Diverse from

16:23

skill, thought, gender,

16:25

race, you name it. I

16:28

think it's very, very important as

16:30

you become even a more

16:32

effective leader, everyone knows

16:35

what their blind spots are. You

16:37

put someone in that place to cover that

16:39

blind spot, and you give them the accountability,

16:41

the authority to help you lead, and

16:44

just become a more effective leader. I

16:46

do not believe that leadership is limited

16:48

to a specific group of people. I

16:51

believe it's a skill that anyone

16:53

can develop. The question is, as

16:56

folks like myself, who

16:58

are in leadership positions, how

17:01

can we foster the environment that we just

17:03

spoke about, and how can we

17:05

foster the opportunity for individuals

17:07

to be able to practice to

17:10

hone in on that skill and become successful?

17:13

Also something that's very challenging, leadership

17:16

and the ability to lead people is not

17:18

something that's readily taught in academia.

17:21

It's really something that between

17:23

practice, honing the

17:25

skill, and also through

17:27

the lens of mentorship and coaching,

17:30

is something that an individual will develop across

17:33

their career. When I say

17:35

leadership for all, it starts with as

17:38

an individual employee in

17:40

the company. How

17:42

do I provide you with

17:45

the right resources and

17:47

the right development path so that

17:50

you determine that leadership is

17:52

an opportunity for you? But then once you

17:54

become a leader, how

17:57

do I onboard you? How

18:00

do I make sure that you are going to

18:02

be one of the best people leaders from the

18:04

perspective of are you able to coach? Can you

18:06

effectively lead? But myself as

18:09

an individual, I think it's important for me to

18:12

create the space where we can

18:14

foster collaboration. We can

18:16

provide opportunities for growth. We

18:19

mentioned leading by example as one of the

18:21

big opportunities. But we've

18:23

learned a lot along the way. And

18:25

I think it's my responsibility to

18:27

really encourage self-awareness. On

18:30

a one-on-one, how do we

18:32

understand the importance or goals

18:34

of our employees? And

18:36

how can we contribute to their

18:38

developmental journey through leadership? As

18:43

we wrap up the season of Leading Up, we

18:45

hope you've gained valuable perspectives on leadership from all

18:48

angles. Whether you're learning to lead

18:50

from the middle, building trust in your team,

18:52

or creating a vibrant culture that helps your

18:54

employees thrive. To listen to

18:56

the full episodes of all seven seasons, go to

18:59

our show notes. Thank

19:01

you to Alan Todd, our Leading Up host for

19:03

Leading Us on this Journey of Growth and Learning.

19:06

Leading Up is produced in partnership with Podpeople.

19:08

Our original theme is by Soundboard. Until

19:11

next time.