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a Thank you so much. so much. Welcome

0:57

to to Learning How I have a

0:59

special opportunity in this last

1:01

episode of the season. I

1:03

am I am time in the

1:05

the seat. seat, and And so

1:08

I get a chance to

1:10

respond to questions that come

1:12

from our producer, Corey Wayne, and

1:14

from Mike Petro, head of F3, of

1:16

F3, team important team at

1:19

the and for Action and Contemplation.

1:21

So, my friends, I'm happy to

1:23

be with you and looking

1:25

to this this conversation. It's always great

1:28

always great to be with you, Hey, I just

1:30

Hey, I just wanted to start this

1:32

off, since you're now in the interviewee

1:34

you always begin your interviews by asking by

1:36

asking to introduce themselves. themselves. while we've heard

1:38

you introduce yourself in a couple

1:40

of different ways of of the episodes,

1:42

how would you introduce yourself today? today? Well,

1:45

let's see, first would say would say

1:47

I live in Southwest Florida.

1:50

It is a beautiful late fall

1:52

winterish day here, day here, which

1:54

for us means temperatures are

1:56

perfect in the 70s today,

1:58

beautiful sunshine. sunshine. I just

2:00

said to my wife a few minutes

2:02

ago, this is the kind of day

2:05

in the middle of the summer when

2:07

it's 93 degrees and super humid where

2:09

we can't believe it will ever be

2:11

this nice again. So it's a beautiful

2:13

day here. I was born in upstate

2:15

New York and lived in Maryland most

2:18

of my life and I was a

2:20

pastor for 24 years before that a

2:22

college English teacher. and for the last

2:24

17 years or so have been a

2:26

writer and public speaker and I get

2:28

to do creative and enjoyable things with

2:30

people like you too. Amazing.

2:32

Thanks Brian. Dr. Mike Petrow, how would

2:35

you introduce yourself? Oh my gosh, I

2:37

was utterly and completely unprepared for this

2:39

question. I would introduce myself as a

2:41

nature-loving mystic with occasional scholarly preclivities, companion

2:44

by good friends, amazing teachers, and the

2:46

best cat in the world. Who is

2:48

presently on screen, but our listeners cannot

2:50

see that. He got very excited about

2:52

this conversation really clearly wants to be

2:55

a part of it. Hey, Corey, how

2:57

do you introduce yourself? Brian, I wasn't

2:59

prepared for that. I was just prepared

3:01

to talk to you too. Well, I'm

3:03

a lover of nature as well. I

3:06

used to love nature as a kid,

3:08

and I lost that as I went

3:10

through adulthood, and then I moved to

3:12

New Mexico and rediscovered my love for

3:15

nature. And now, I can't imagine my

3:17

life without it. So, very into nature,

3:19

synthesizers, I brew Kumbucha. Yeah, what else

3:21

should I say? Mike, you know me

3:23

well. I know that listeners might not

3:26

know that I've gotten Corey lost on

3:28

several hikes and he's always been a

3:30

really good sport about it. And New

3:32

Mexico is a great place to get

3:34

lost in. So I would say, yeah,

3:37

Corey's a very good and very hysterical

3:39

friend to have in your intimate circle.

3:41

Thank you, Mike. You two are mentioning

3:43

New Mexico. Can I tell you just

3:46

a quick thing I don't think I've

3:48

ever told either of you before? In

3:50

the early 90s, I went through one

3:52

of the rougher patches of my life.

3:54

One of my children was going, my

3:57

son Trevor. going through three and a

3:59

half years of chemotherapy. I was at

4:01

midlife. My life and work as a

4:03

pastor was going through its probably roughest

4:05

patch. And I had this period of

4:08

time where I just dreamed that I

4:10

could leave everything and move to New

4:12

Mexico. And my picture was to be

4:14

riding a horse back in the mountains

4:17

of New Mexico. never had any guess

4:19

I'd be connected with the CAC in

4:21

New Mexico or with either of you

4:23

or that I get to spend a

4:25

lot of time there. So yeah, New

4:28

Mexico is a special, special place. You

4:30

know what's strange about that? When I

4:32

was a kid, I would always come

4:34

out to the West. I was fortunate

4:36

enough to know my great-great-grandparents, and a

4:39

lot of my family lived out here

4:41

in the West, and every summer we

4:43

would come through the Southwest. and drive

4:45

through Albuquerque. And I had relatives in

4:48

Deming, New Mexico, and I too would

4:50

have never imagined that one day this

4:52

would be home. But... Demings where they

4:54

have the famous annual duck races, which

4:56

I'm pretty excited about. They say that

4:59

New Mexico claims its own, and I

5:01

think that's true of the natural world

5:03

in general, but there is something special

5:05

about the landscape out here. It sort

5:07

of gets in your heart and doesn't

5:10

let you go. Yeah. Well,

5:21

I want to pivot to our conversation

5:24

today. So Brian, we're interviewing you as

5:26

a friend and for your work. And

5:28

we've been producing this show since 2020

5:30

when we first made the season on

5:32

biases. And we've since pivoted from biases

5:34

to Christianity from Christianity to seven stories.

5:37

learning about how the story we tell

5:39

about the world shapes how we live

5:41

our lives and from those seven stories

5:43

to nature. Over the last 13 episodes

5:45

we've explored nature through a variety of

5:48

identities and perspectives. I'm wondering what sticks

5:50

out to you as the host throughout

5:52

each of those conversations as sort of

5:54

a through line. First, I hope it

5:56

has come through to you both and

5:58

to all of our listeners how much

6:01

I've enjoyed. single person I've had a

6:03

chance to talk to and how different

6:05

they've been and what different perspectives and

6:07

gifts they bring on this subject. When

6:09

we're facing what I call in my

6:11

book Life After Doom, the reality of

6:14

overshoot that we're sucking out more than

6:16

the earth, more resources than the earth

6:18

can replenish and we're pumping out more

6:20

waste products than the earth can detoxify.

6:22

when you live with that reality, it

6:25

is very very easy to be overwhelmed

6:27

and to be sucked into a kind

6:29

of paralysis and maybe even a feeling

6:31

of despondency and defeat. And yet when

6:33

we stay in touch with the earth,

6:35

the earth keeps replenishing us with new

6:38

reasons to stay in the struggle, to

6:40

stay in the fight and to even

6:42

find joy each day. So this feeling

6:44

both of how much trouble we're in

6:46

and yet how nature itself inspires us

6:48

to stay engaged with all the best

6:51

resources we can bring. That's the thing

6:53

that I feel. I especially feel that

6:55

after listening again to the last few

6:57

episodes of this season. Yeah, one of

6:59

my favorite things as one of the

7:02

producers now, we have two now. Dorothy

7:04

joined us on season seven. So. Huge

7:06

shout out to Dorothy, but one of

7:08

my favorite things about the last two

7:10

seasons is we've went all the way

7:12

from your grandkids to somebody that's helping

7:15

people explore climate grief and spiritual direction

7:17

to theologians, mystics, you name it. So

7:19

I just want to name that I

7:21

appreciate the vast spectrum of perspectives that

7:23

you captured because I think a topic

7:25

such as this needs that. And I

7:28

have to say in terms of comments

7:30

that I received from people in person

7:32

and by email and so on, yeah,

7:34

my grandkids really were kind of heroes

7:36

in the in the whole series. Yeah,

7:39

shout out to your kids as well.

7:41

Your kids also joined us. We're not

7:43

erasing them. Yes, that's right. Mike, anything

7:45

that you want to share on this,

7:47

I think you have a story about

7:49

sea turtles. Brian, I have to tell

7:52

you, there's a story that lives rent-free

7:54

in my mind. And it is emblematic

7:56

for everything I appreciate about you as

7:58

a teacher, as a friend, and what

8:00

I think you bring to CAC as

8:02

our dean. We take our work very

8:05

seriously here at the Center for Action

8:07

and contemplation, and we work hard. And

8:09

there have been times where I have

8:11

gotten a little bit stressed about the

8:13

urgency of the work that we do

8:16

here. And so one of my very

8:18

best friends in Albuquerque is Kate, Kate

8:20

from Albuquerque, one of my favorite people

8:22

in the world, and Kate has had

8:24

a reoccurring mantra for the last few

8:26

years. Whenever I get stressed about work,

8:29

Kate always says to me, hey Michael,

8:31

how many sea turtles did your organization

8:33

save today? And I would always say,

8:35

you know, to the best of my

8:37

knowledge, I don't know that we've directly

8:39

saved any sea turtles today. And she

8:42

goes, all right, don't take yourself so

8:44

seriously. And so this has been a

8:46

verbal game that we've played literally for

8:48

years until one day I showed up

8:50

in a team meeting with you and

8:53

you got your phone out over Zoom

8:55

and said, hey, can I show all

8:57

of you what I was doing this

8:59

morning? And I'm just going to let

9:01

you tell our listeners what you showed

9:03

us on your phone. Well, every summer

9:06

between May and August I volunteer about

9:08

once a week with an organization called

9:10

Rookery Bay. We monitor six miles of

9:12

uninhabited beach south of where I live

9:14

on the Gulf of Mexico for sea

9:16

turtle nests. And so we find the

9:19

nests and then we cover them over

9:21

with a little fencing to protect them

9:23

from raccoons and coyotes and so on.

9:25

And then when they hatch, we... Count

9:27

all the hatched eggs and and we

9:30

do all kinds of other data collection

9:32

every once in a while We get

9:34

some of the babies get trapped in

9:36

the nest and we get to Set

9:38

them free. So I think the video

9:40

that I showed that day was a

9:43

rare occasion for us We usually have

9:45

loggerhead sea turtles, but there's a far

9:47

rarer species here in the Gulf called

9:49

the green sea turtle and we had

9:51

released a couple of beautiful green sea

9:53

turtle hatchlings that morning and I had

9:56

a video of it. Yeah, so it's

9:58

always really fun when we get to

10:00

set them free. So it was nice

10:02

to fit into your friend Kate's little

10:04

mantra there. Oh man, it was so

10:07

great. I remember we just were so

10:09

enthralled when you showed us the video

10:11

and I immediately texted Kate and was

10:13

like, my dean saved sea turtles, you

10:15

lose. It was such a great moment.

10:17

I so appreciate that. And Brian, I

10:20

love the way that you've kicked us

10:22

off and I think we're going to

10:24

get into every one of the themes

10:26

that you've already mentioned, but one of

10:28

the things I'd love to ask you

10:30

as a friend to start, you and

10:33

I, amongst other things, have gotten to

10:35

work on the essentials of engaged contemplation

10:37

course, the living school course that we

10:39

built here at the Center for Action

10:41

Contemplation, and one of the things that

10:44

comes up a lot in conversation in

10:46

that course is that for early Christian

10:48

contemplatives, nature was the first scripture. And

10:50

I know our good friends Randy and

10:52

Edith Woodley talk about how this is

10:54

intrinsic to Native American spirituality. I know

10:57

you've talked to them recently. My question

10:59

for you is, how has that reality

11:01

really manifested in your life that nature

11:03

is the first scripture? It feels to

11:05

me like it was very true for

11:07

you growing up. And is that a

11:10

correct assumption to make? Well,

11:12

so let me be honest, growing

11:15

up, I was forced to go

11:17

to church and in between Sundays,

11:19

I wasn't like a spiritual kid.

11:21

If I was in trouble, I

11:23

would pray. If I thought I

11:25

was going to fail a test,

11:27

I would pray. But I wasn't

11:30

one of those inherently spiritual kids,

11:32

but I did love nature. I

11:34

just, and I mean, as an

11:36

adult, I look back and I

11:38

think what I loved in nature

11:40

was the beauty, the logic, the

11:42

wisdom, the harmony, the And now

11:45

I understand all of those things

11:47

as being exactly what you just

11:49

said, a revelation of what we

11:51

mean when we say the word

11:53

God. So as a child, that

11:55

was there, but I would have

11:57

identified the religious part of it

11:59

as secondary because of the. religion

12:02

that I was brought up with,

12:04

you know, as a lot of

12:06

people were. It's complicated in my

12:08

own childhood. But interestingly, as a

12:10

teenager, I had a very, very

12:12

powerful experience in nature that then

12:14

helped me in a certain sense

12:17

reconnect those two worlds. If I

12:19

could indulge, you know, the old

12:21

preacher part of me, I was

12:23

asked to preach at a church

12:25

just a couple of weeks ago,

12:27

and I preached a sermon on

12:29

a Psalm, Psalm 19. And if

12:32

folks want to read it, some

12:34

folks might be familiar with it,

12:36

but you can just look it

12:38

up and read it. But, Psalm

12:40

19, I was taught, the first

12:42

half of the Psalm is about

12:44

the revelation of God in nature,

12:47

and the second half of the

12:49

Psalm was about the revelation of

12:51

God in scripture. The irony is,

12:53

there was no Bible when the

12:55

Psalm was written. So in the

12:57

sermon that I preached recently, what

12:59

I basically said is the first

13:02

half of the Psalm is talking

13:04

about the beauty of nature, the

13:06

heavens declare the glory of God,

13:08

the earth declares God's handiwork, day-to-day,

13:10

pours forth speech, but there are

13:12

no words. So it's this paradox

13:14

of a wordless wisdom that comes

13:16

to us through the created world.

13:19

And then it speaks of the

13:21

law of the Lord, the testimonies

13:23

of the Lord, and I think

13:25

what's happening there is the samest

13:27

is saying, when you experience the

13:29

beauty and grandeur and harmony and

13:31

patterns and wisdom of nature, you're

13:34

getting insight into the wisdom and

13:36

logic and precepts and moral framework

13:38

of God of the divine. And

13:40

so rather than there being two

13:42

books, there's really one book and

13:44

it shows itself in nature. And

13:46

in scripture, a song like this

13:49

is in a way trying to

13:51

help us, it's pointing us to

13:53

nature to try to see that

13:55

wisdom in life. As we often

13:57

say at the CAC, that we

13:59

be. of life, our own

14:02

individual life, but students of life,

14:04

the life that we see in

14:06

this beautiful earth. You know, John

14:08

Chris Austin says that we should

14:10

read scripture as a friend talking

14:12

to a friend. And that's the

14:14

way I feel when I'm out

14:16

in the natural world anymore. You

14:18

know, does that resonate? I know

14:20

Brian, I know with your love

14:22

of birding and everything else, do

14:24

you, is there an intimacy and

14:26

a friendship in that aspect of

14:28

your life? So right above me

14:30

right now in the room is

14:32

a roof, right? And on that

14:34

roof are solar panels that we

14:36

installed some years ago. And every

14:38

night we have a little herd

14:40

of iguanas. They're an invasive species

14:42

here in Florida, but they're well

14:44

established now, including about a four

14:46

and a half or five foot

14:48

long iguana that we have nicknamed

14:50

T. Rex, big male. bright orange

14:52

color, he's just quite a individual.

14:54

He's gotten used to me, I've

14:56

gotten used to him, and whenever

14:58

I see him, I say, hey,

15:00

T. Rex, how are you doing?

15:02

And I talk to him and

15:04

I get his attention. And of

15:07

course, if I were to get

15:09

too close, he would whack me

15:11

with his tail. But we have

15:13

a respectful relationship. And the same

15:15

with a gopher tortoise that has

15:17

dug its burrow outside my front

15:19

sidewalk. Similarly with some burrowing owls

15:21

that live in the neighborhood in

15:23

the neighborhood. There's a red-shouldered hawk

15:25

that comes and sits on my

15:27

fence sometimes and stares at me.

15:29

And they learn that you're not

15:31

a threat, that you're not there

15:33

to hurt them or destroy them

15:35

or kill them or hurt their

15:37

babies or whatever. And then there's

15:39

a respectful relationship. They're not tame.

15:41

in the sense that I don't

15:43

own them, they have their own

15:45

space that I have to respect.

15:47

And to me, this kind of

15:49

respecting of space is a part

15:51

of friendship. You know, we have

15:53

a term for people who don't

15:55

respect boundaries. We call them narcissists.

15:57

They're always impeding and crossing boundaries

15:59

to take advantage of us. And

16:01

we humans tend to have a

16:03

narcissistic relationship. our fellow creatures, but

16:05

there's a respectful friendship, I think.

16:07

It creates a kind of reverence

16:09

and respect and enjoyment. Sometimes in

16:11

life, especially when I'm tired, I

16:13

struggle with boundaries, right? Boundaries are

16:15

not always my strong suit in

16:18

the sense of boundaries to protect

16:20

myself. And a friend of mine

16:22

from here in New Mexico recently

16:24

had said to me, you know,

16:26

spending time in the desert is

16:28

a master class in boundary setting

16:30

because desert plants and desert animals,

16:32

they're beautiful and you can get

16:34

actually shockingly close to them. but

16:36

they're also really good at setting

16:38

boundaries. A rattlesnake is really good

16:40

at setting boundaries. A cactus is

16:42

really good at setting boundaries. And

16:44

so I so appreciate that sort

16:46

of balance of respect and friendship,

16:48

which is something I don't know

16:50

that we've really held on to

16:52

in the moment we find ourselves

16:54

in. I think this is one

16:56

of our real struggles with the

16:58

natural world. We are so used

17:00

to being in control of things

17:02

that when we see the natural

17:04

world demand respect, we think it's

17:06

being hostile. But this is part

17:08

of our job as human beings

17:10

to learn appropriate respect, you know.

17:12

Yeah, after centuries and centuries of

17:14

domination, it's a little bit like

17:16

people with privilege, white privilege, male

17:18

privilege, the privilege of the rich.

17:20

They're so used to acting in

17:22

domineering ways that when you ask

17:24

them to show proper respect, they

17:27

feel they're being deprived of something.

17:29

But this is something we need.

17:31

And it's our challenge right now

17:33

to return to that respect. It

17:35

makes me think of the Apostle

17:37

Paul talking about the earth groaning.

17:39

Yes. And the sort of notion

17:41

of the earth itself both grieving,

17:43

but also maybe expressing a little

17:45

bit of anger and a demand

17:47

for respect. That's a powerful way

17:49

to think about it. I mean,

17:51

really, this is where if we

17:53

were to describe ourselves as walking

17:55

as friends upon the earth, friends

17:57

with our fellow creatures. if we

17:59

if we have

18:01

been bullies and

18:03

selfish and you know,

18:05

of course, the other

18:07

partners partners in the friendship have

18:09

to put up their boundaries, right?

18:11

And we're at a place now

18:14

where we're trying to learn respect.

18:16

Of course, we're speaking these words these

18:18

long after an election. And one

18:20

of the big debates that's going

18:22

on in our political world is,

18:24

are we humans in charge? in

18:26

Are we we Are we dictators over

18:29

the over the Or are we actually

18:31

going to try to be restored

18:33

to a friendly relationship? I love

18:35

you mentioning that passage that Paul's

18:37

writing in Romans. Romans. creation

18:40

groans for the revelation

18:42

of the the of God.

18:44

I think a good way

18:46

to understand that is

18:49

we're not acting like children

18:51

of God. We're acting

18:53

like little acting like little tin little

18:55

egotistical, narcissistic, immature immature dictators ourselves.

18:57

The call is creation is

19:00

waiting for us to

19:02

grow up and start acting

19:04

less immaturally and selfishly.

19:06

Well, and I think I

19:08

what I've so appreciated about

19:11

your work and appreciated about your

19:13

this call to, if

19:15

we are to be friends

19:17

after nature, know, we need

19:20

to be advocates for our

19:22

friend. are to be friends of nature, we

19:24

need to be advocates for our friend. Mm. Learning

19:26

how to see, we'll to back be

19:28

back in a moment. As

19:45

you say that advocates,

19:47

and this is

19:49

where contemplation and action

19:51

are again so

19:53

deeply interwoven. you know, You

19:55

know, if we're

19:58

the kind of people

20:00

like Jesus who

20:02

sneak out sneak out before

20:04

first light. light, that we

20:06

can re-ground ourselves in the natural world.

20:09

And then we come back into human

20:11

society, and we come back as advocates

20:13

for the natural world in whose presence

20:15

we have been communing with God. And

20:17

now we come back to the natural

20:19

world to our fellow humans, many of

20:22

whom do not understand the way that

20:24

we're abusing the earth. Oh my goodness,

20:26

suddenly now we have to bring all

20:28

of the... the spiritual strength,

20:30

wisdom, self-regulation, skillful means that we possibly

20:33

can now to be advocates, and especially

20:35

because we're in, you know, like a

20:37

five alarm fire of emergency and the

20:39

dangers into which we're pushing our human

20:42

earth relationship. Oh my gosh. Well, and

20:44

this makes me think of Corey, I

20:46

know earlier, you and I were talking

20:49

and you were sharing that Life After

20:51

Doom is your favorite of Brian's books.

20:53

I know you had some thoughts on

20:55

that. I'd love to hear where you'd

20:58

like to take the conversation. This is

21:00

gonna be a random pivot, but Brian,

21:02

have you seen the movie, Barbie? Yes,

21:04

I have seen that movie. Oh, as

21:07

you all were talking about narcissism and

21:09

being better companions to the earth, like

21:11

all I can think about as I'm

21:13

sitting here listening to you talk is

21:16

like that's mind-blowing and also at the

21:18

same time, like I want to talk

21:20

about our present state of the world

21:23

and the crisis we find ourselves in

21:25

and I feel like a little bit

21:27

like Barbie in the dancing scene when

21:29

everybody's having a good time and she's

21:32

like, does anybody ever think about dying

21:34

and the whole just thing stops? So

21:36

I wanted to pivot to where we

21:38

find ourselves now at this state. Yeah,

21:41

Life After Doom is by far my

21:43

favorite work of yours. I think I've

21:45

told you that several times. And we

21:48

don't want to make this an interview

21:50

about your book because we've done enough

21:52

of that. But we are recording this

21:54

conversation at the end of November of

21:57

2024. Trump has been reelected back to

21:59

the White House. And out of the

22:01

many things we could talk about, there's

22:03

the climate. that's unfolding all around us

22:06

and yesterday Dorothy our wonderful producer shared

22:08

with me this article from the New

22:10

York Times talking about the pending changes

22:13

that could come to environmental and climate

22:15

policies under the next Trump administration and

22:17

you know then there's this sense of

22:19

urgency with the Paris climate agreement reducing

22:22

global emissions in half by 2030 which

22:24

comes right at the end of this

22:26

next Trump presidency. As we

22:28

talk about these concepts of doom, how

22:31

has this changed in your life as

22:33

it relates to your work and as

22:35

your own perspectives as being a friend

22:37

to nature? You know, if you have

22:40

a friend who has

22:42

a terrible disease and the disease

22:44

keeps getting worse and worse and

22:47

worse. If you really are a

22:49

loyal friend you keep feeling pain

22:51

and your sense of concern grows

22:53

and grows and you want to

22:55

stop the things that are causing

22:58

so much harm to this being

23:00

who you love. I mean in

23:02

a real sense what has just

23:04

happened in this election is horrible

23:06

from any different standpoints, but the

23:08

folly of our democratic choice in

23:11

this year. I don't mean democratic

23:13

in terms of party. I mean,

23:15

the democracy chose to continue the

23:17

drill, baby, drill. mindset on top

23:19

of many other things. It chose

23:21

to empower billionaires. And what's so

23:24

one of the many stunning things

23:26

of what's happened in the weeks

23:28

since the election is that many,

23:30

many of the people who've been

23:32

chosen for cabinet positions are billionaires.

23:34

billionaires by and large are people

23:37

who have become, you can't become

23:39

a billionaire by being a normal

23:41

person. You either inherit a huge

23:43

amount of wealth as many billionaires

23:45

do, you're not a normal person

23:47

when you inherit that much wealth.

23:50

Or you organize your life to

23:52

accumulate wealth at that extreme pay.

23:54

rate, you're not a normal person.

23:56

And you're insulated not only from

23:58

nature, you're also insulated from large

24:01

numbers of people. And when you

24:03

have billions of dollars, almost everybody

24:05

who's around you is around you

24:07

to try to get some of

24:09

your largeness. So they don't want

24:11

to bite the hand that feeds

24:14

them. And so, I mean, to

24:16

be a billionaire. A lot of

24:18

people envy billionaires. I'm thankful every

24:20

moment. Oh, thank you God, I'm

24:22

not a billionaire, you know, or

24:24

a millionaire, or whatever, you know.

24:27

Just thank God that we don't

24:29

have that amount of insulation from

24:31

reality and that we haven't been

24:33

sucked into this sick cult of

24:35

accumulation any more than we have.

24:37

And, you know, the three of

24:40

us are all privileged in many,

24:42

many ways. And we don't want

24:44

to minimize that. But it could

24:46

even be worse. And what we've

24:48

decided to do is hitch our

24:50

wagon to the values and vision

24:53

and perspective of billionaires. Again, it's

24:55

a choice that our culture made.

24:57

I'm not surprised. We have centuries

24:59

of addiction to wealth, but it's

25:01

another step of our societies toward

25:03

collapse. And the sad thing about

25:06

our current situation is we will

25:08

not survive. living out of sync

25:10

with the natural world forever. And

25:12

so the stupider we are, the

25:14

more quickly we are driving toward

25:17

a cliff. And we can just

25:19

keep hoping and working and speaking

25:21

in whatever ways we can to

25:23

try to help our society wake

25:25

up to that reality. What you're

25:27

sharing makes me think of the

25:30

Desert Fathers and Mothers. I've been

25:32

thinking about them a lot lately,

25:34

the sort of Desert Elders who

25:36

lived in the third, fourth, and

25:38

fifth century. What we know from

25:40

history is that Christianity had gone

25:43

from this sort of punk rock

25:45

minority illegal religion that was feeding

25:47

orphans and taking care of widows.

25:49

reaching out to those in need

25:51

and had become the religion of

25:53

the empire. And so as politicians

25:56

were capitalizing on the popularity of

25:58

Christianity to stay in power, it

26:00

suddenly became the religion of latter

26:02

climbing in the empire. And we

26:04

had these early Christian contemplatives who

26:06

looked around and they didn't even

26:09

recognize their religion anymore. They were

26:11

like, this is not the religion

26:13

of Jesus. And so they kind

26:15

of said, I'm out. And they

26:17

opted out of mainstream culture and

26:20

they're on the exact opposite of

26:22

the spectrum that you're describing for

26:24

the billionaires, where they were like,

26:26

we're not here for this game.

26:28

And they headed out into the

26:30

desert in the desert and wilderness,

26:33

not just to run away, but

26:35

to run towards God. And that's

26:37

where they found God. And in

26:39

that time, there were politicians and

26:41

peasants who went out to seek

26:43

them for wisdom. But I kind

26:46

of wonder if they're like heading

26:48

out into the desert is the

26:50

equivalent of us saying I'm gonna

26:52

move to Canada. Like I'm out,

26:54

I'm gonna get out of here,

26:56

I'm gonna get out of the

26:59

United States. What I'm wondering is.

27:01

in following their example, but not

27:03

leaving to go live in a

27:05

cave? How can we turn back

27:07

to the wilderness for some of

27:09

the wisdom that I think that's

27:12

being lost in mainstream religion, but

27:14

also not abandoned ship and sort

27:16

of stay in the fight for

27:18

lack of a better way to

27:20

say it? And I hate to

27:23

use fight language, but it sure

27:25

feels appropriate at the moment. Yeah,

27:27

well, something I'd want to say

27:29

first of all is there are

27:31

many different responses that people have

27:33

to an emergency situation. And I

27:36

don't think there's only one right

27:38

one in many cases. There are

27:40

many valid responses. And I should

27:42

say there are people who are

27:44

saying doing what the desert sages

27:46

did in the early centuries of

27:49

the Christian faith. There are many

27:51

people are saying, I want to

27:53

go buy some land out in

27:55

the country and I want to,

27:57

you know, I understand that and

27:59

I'm not criticizing that. But here's

28:02

the reality. A difference between our

28:04

situation and the desert fathers and

28:06

mothers is there is nowhere to

28:08

escape. is nowhere to escape that

28:10

will not be affected by climate

28:12

change, and then by the cascading

28:15

effects of climate change, like mass

28:17

migration. There are no number of

28:19

walls that can be put up

28:21

that will stop mass migration. When

28:23

people are starving, they become more

28:26

and more desperate. And then what

28:28

will happen is there will be

28:30

right wing reactions to all of

28:32

those problems. And guess what? Some

28:34

people are going to pick up

28:36

more and more weapons. There are

28:39

any number of books and documentaries

28:41

about what happens when one idiot

28:43

somewhere presses a button. and decides

28:45

to be the first one to

28:47

send nuclear weapons. And there are

28:49

cascading effects that go from there.

28:52

So when we realize the danger

28:54

that we're in, one of the

28:56

things we have to realize is

28:58

there is no escape. We are

29:00

in this together. Just as we

29:02

can escape. the limits of the

29:05

earth. We also can't escape our

29:07

connection to other people, including people

29:09

who don't believe that climate change

29:11

is real, including Christians who believe,

29:13

oh yeah, it's God's will that

29:15

we destroy the earth. Then Jesus

29:18

comes back and raptures us all

29:20

to heaven, right? There's a whole

29:22

theology that fit in perfectly with

29:24

this. There are theologies, Christian. Jewish,

29:26

Muslim, that are very very happy

29:29

to imagine nuclear weapons as long

29:31

as it's our side using them

29:33

and not the other guys, not

29:35

realizing how, you know, this becomes

29:37

a suicide game very, very quickly.

29:39

So all that's to say, we

29:42

are connected and holding that sense

29:44

of connectedness, the inability of escape.

29:46

means that we then have to

29:48

say, I can't escape, ultimately. So

29:50

how do I want to be

29:52

present? And what message do I

29:55

want to speak and live in

29:57

a situation where there is nowhere

29:59

to run? Mike,

30:13

I think I think you were

30:15

the host of the event with

30:17

event with Brian in your book, around your book,

30:19

Life what struck me about that

30:21

event was we the audience of

30:23

what what of a fight, flight, freeze, and

30:25

flight, freeze, introduced flock, as a, you I think

30:29

think overwhelmingly, the audience was in a

30:31

freeze state. this like And you mentioned Doom

30:33

being this so to speak, but like disorder, so to

30:35

speak. what do you say to the

30:37

listeners that are listening in on this

30:39

conversation? Because I would imagine that if we

30:41

were to pull the listeners right now,

30:44

like on their iPhones or or like

30:46

whatever they're listening on, what state

30:48

they find themselves in, I bet

30:50

you in. I bet you, I could imagine just

30:52

from conversations and things I see online

30:54

online, that freeze to still be that overwhelming

30:56

response. response. Yeah. some others have kicked

30:58

up a little bit bit But

31:00

anyway, what do you say to the people listening

31:03

to this conversation? Let me start

31:05

by saying something about those

31:07

different responses, fight, responses, freeze, flight, freeze, flock.

31:09

Fawn is is another where people

31:11

look for a leader that they

31:13

trust, who they want to

31:15

submit themselves to seeking that that

31:17

leader will solve all their

31:19

problems. problems, these responses. all there might

31:21

be times where where one of

31:23

these responses makes more sense

31:25

than the others. But one of

31:27

the things I like about

31:29

that list of responses of is

31:31

that there's no one of them

31:33

that is the only right

31:35

answer all the time. time. And And

31:37

that phrase, the term have both you

31:40

maybe have both

31:42

experienced this, I

31:44

know I've experienced

31:46

it probably four

31:48

or five times

31:50

in my life

31:52

where I'm walking

31:54

through the through the

31:56

forest I come

31:58

upon a baby

32:00

fawn and my foot

32:02

is is inches

32:04

away from the

32:06

baby fawn. And

32:08

it is curled

32:10

up on the

32:12

forest floor floor and

32:14

instincts are do

32:16

not move. Trust. camouflage. And

32:18

sometimes the wisdom for us is,

32:20

I don't know what to do,

32:22

I don't know where to go,

32:24

I don't see a way of

32:26

escape, and so sometimes freezing, as

32:28

a fawn does, freezing in place

32:30

is the smartest thing to do

32:32

until it becomes clear what we

32:34

should do. But we tend to

32:36

be heard creatures and flocking. Sometimes

32:39

when we're all find ourselves freezing,

32:41

it becomes smart for us to

32:43

say, hey, let's get together and

32:45

talk about what's going on. Or

32:47

when we see others fawning, looking

32:49

for an authoritarian leader, who says,

32:51

I alone can fix this, and

32:53

people are drawn to that. They're

32:55

drawn to confidence. At times like

32:57

this, I think one of the

32:59

things we can do is... acknowledge

33:01

that we don't know what to

33:03

do, and then get together with

33:05

some other people, flock together and

33:07

say, none of us know what

33:09

to do. And let's be together,

33:11

and let's look at our options,

33:13

and let's stay in touch, and

33:15

let's help one another self-regulate in

33:17

a difficult time. You know, when

33:19

I'm tempted to despair or to

33:21

panic, one of the smartest things

33:23

I can do is find some

33:25

other people and say, you know,

33:27

let's all of us try to

33:29

self-regulate together and one another's presence

33:31

will help us maintain some sanity

33:33

and maturity and self-regulation. I remember

33:35

when you said that in that

33:37

virtual gathering and I for a

33:39

split second I misheard you and

33:41

it landed so well when I

33:43

when I thought you said we

33:45

are heard creatures and I thought

33:47

you had heard with the ears

33:49

and it sort of landed in

33:51

my soul as we are heard

33:53

creatures and as such we need

33:55

to be heard creatures and so

33:57

the gift of sharing our overwhelm

33:59

or our despair or even our

34:01

grief in seeking hope by just

34:03

listening to each other letting our

34:05

stories in the reality the moment

34:07

that we find ourselves in be

34:09

carried communally, right? As Dr. Barbara

34:11

Holmes of Blessed Memory had taught

34:13

us in crisis contemplation to support

34:16

each other in the midst of

34:18

that is so profound. I'm really,

34:20

really grateful for that insight, Brian.

34:22

Mike, as you mentioned Dr. B,

34:24

several of us have mentioned the

34:26

passages in her book and in

34:28

some of her talks, where she

34:30

recalls an experience of being in

34:32

an African-American church where an old

34:34

spiritual is sung, where the only

34:36

lyrics are, Oh Jesus. And in

34:38

a sense, the musical experience is

34:40

a shared chat and a shared

34:42

groan, where people together You know,

34:44

Jesus, as the face of God

34:46

who empathizes with our sorrows and

34:48

fears and pains and sicknesses and

34:50

terror, right, he empathizes with our

34:52

grief. So we feel this is

34:54

a safe place for us to

34:56

groan and to groan. I don't

34:58

know what to do, to groan.

35:00

it's going to get worse before

35:02

it gets better. And to be

35:04

able to do that in the

35:06

presence of God and in the

35:08

presence of God manifested in one

35:10

another is one of the ways

35:12

that I think we hold on

35:14

and we avoid panic reactions or

35:16

vengeful reactions or other kind of

35:18

reactions that will create more trouble.

35:20

We just stay in a holding

35:22

zone with one another until the

35:24

way forward becomes clear. you both

35:26

know I've been working on a

35:28

novel or a series of novels

35:30

and one of the little phrases

35:32

that becomes a catch phrase among

35:34

people in my novel is survive

35:36

another day which is a way

35:38

of saying we aren't going to

35:40

fix this today we're not going

35:42

to fix it tomorrow we're not

35:44

going to fix it next year

35:46

let's survive another day till a

35:48

way through becomes clear. Wow. We're

35:50

coming up on time, Brian, so

35:52

I want to keep the rest

35:55

of our conversation brief. We could,

35:57

I imagine, there's so many trailheads.

35:59

that we could take and sit

36:01

with us for hours. But you

36:03

are by far one of my

36:05

favorite people to talk to in

36:07

difficult moments. You have just a

36:09

brilliant and grounded way of handling

36:11

these situations. I want to end

36:13

in a practical note, whatever time

36:15

we have left, talking about hope,

36:17

courage, resilience for our listeners, just

36:19

to leave them with something as

36:21

we close out these two seasons

36:23

of nature, where are you finding

36:25

hope today? How are you cultivating

36:27

hope in your own life? Well,

36:30

as you know from reading the

36:32

book, I think hope is complicated.

36:34

There is a kind of hope

36:36

that's an absolute necessity for survival.

36:38

It's the will to survive. But

36:40

there's another kind of hope that

36:42

sometimes is our way of not

36:44

facing reality by just looking for

36:46

something to make us feel good

36:49

enough that we can return to

36:51

our previously scheduled autopilot or complacency

36:53

or whatever. But what's

36:55

helping me is to realize that

36:57

hope has its limits and even

36:59

faith has its limits, but that

37:02

passage in the New Testament, First

37:04

Corinthians 13, where Paul says there

37:06

are three really great lasting qualities,

37:08

faith, hope, and love. These are

37:11

three things that mature people. center

37:13

themselves on. When we're children, we're

37:15

focused on many other things. Knowledge,

37:18

information, wealth, power. As we mature,

37:20

we've realized faith, hope, and love

37:22

are really three central things. And

37:24

the greatest of these is love.

37:27

And what helps me and what

37:29

keeps that will to survive going

37:31

in me more than anything else

37:33

is to realize what I love

37:36

and to center on what I

37:38

love and to celebrate what I

37:40

love and to love what I

37:43

love and to be grateful for

37:45

what I love and to be

37:47

shaped by what I love. And

37:49

so we all have a thousand

37:52

frustrations with organized religion. But one

37:54

of the reasons I can't give

37:56

up on organized religion is that

37:58

at its back, religion

38:01

points us to what is worth loving

38:03

and invites us to keep centering on

38:05

what we should desire and love and

38:07

care about most and that's what I

38:09

think draws me into friendships like with

38:12

you two and draws me into circles

38:14

like the folks who come together at

38:16

the Center for Action and Contemplation, I

38:18

want to be around people who are

38:20

consciously deciding what's lovable, what's worth loving,

38:23

and what draws us more deeply into

38:25

love. That's good. Why don't you ask

38:27

you, Mike, like, what gives you hope?

38:29

How do you cultivate hope in your

38:31

own life? Oh man, I really appreciate

38:34

that. I'm still thinking about God Brian.

38:36

I'm going to think about that for

38:38

months, that the greatest of these is

38:40

love and that love might be the

38:42

only inexhaustible thing. I've been thinking a

38:45

lot about, well, so you have me

38:47

thinking origin says to love God and

38:49

to love good things is one and

38:51

the same. And I think that, you

38:53

know, falling in love with beauty might

38:56

be what inspires us to really. do

38:58

the work. But you know, Corey, I

39:00

think a lot about, so you'll know

39:02

I love origin, to the best of

39:04

my knowledge, origin was the first Christian

39:07

theologian to sort of break the spiritual

39:09

life into three seasons, and he equated

39:11

it with Proverbs, Ecclesiastics, and songs. We

39:13

don't have time to get into this.

39:15

But the middle part, which is what

39:18

we also think about, is like the

39:20

journey of dissent or the dark night

39:22

of the soul, the difficult times, for

39:24

whatever reason, origin connected that with the

39:26

importance of science and nature. And it

39:29

seemed like he was saying, when the

39:31

ground is pulled from under our feet,

39:33

we need to reground in the natural

39:35

world and its wisdom. Or I think

39:37

about every single religious system that I'm

39:40

aware of puts a value on humility.

39:42

And I think humility is one of

39:44

the most poorly translated words in the

39:46

English language because humility comes from hummus,

39:48

which is earth, right? So we translated

39:51

it as to be low, but really

39:53

I think it's to be grounded. And

39:55

so what I've been trying to do,

39:57

Corey, and Brian, I know you'll appreciate

39:59

this, is when I can't get my

40:02

mind to find hope, I just get

40:04

out in the desert. it's sort of

40:06

like what you were saying at the

40:08

top, there's something there that fills me

40:10

back up. And it's not a commodification

40:13

of nature. Nature's not there to make

40:15

me feel better. But there is something

40:17

about its endurance that is reassuring. And

40:19

in its own way alarming because the

40:21

natural world's in danger right now. But

40:24

yeah, I think hope is complicated for

40:26

me as well. And I've been just

40:28

trying as best as I can to

40:30

sort of let the coyotes and the

40:32

cactuses. Put that back in for me.

40:35

What's it like for you, Corey? I'm

40:37

curious. You know, I was going to

40:39

say something similar. For me, I have

40:41

this new term that I just recently

40:43

coined called Desert Bathing. And I'll get

40:46

in my car and just drive two

40:48

hours out of the city. And there's

40:50

a spot I go to and just

40:52

sit in the desert. There's nobody out

40:54

there. And I just listened to the

40:57

silence. I've never journaled in my life

40:59

until this year. stream of consciousness until

41:01

I reach a point of hope. As

41:03

you all were talking, and Brian, you

41:05

and I have reflected on this before,

41:08

but when I was doing my undergrad,

41:10

I had this class in positive psychology

41:12

and I learned about this technique of

41:14

learned hopefulness. This comes from like Dan

41:16

Thomas Sullo and Martin Seligman, who they

41:19

both did different works in pioneering this

41:21

field of positive psychology, which is essentially

41:24

a way to get people beyond

41:26

their baseline. And so I just

41:28

have been really reflecting on these

41:30

practices of learned hopefulness, focusing on

41:33

the things that you can do

41:35

to change your perspective, to celebrate

41:37

small progress that's being made, and

41:39

to try to find the good

41:41

in the world, because there still

41:43

is good in the world, even

41:45

when it's colored by doom. But

41:48

I can really only get there

41:50

by desert bathing, usually, especially since

41:52

the election. It takes some solitude.

41:54

and my cat, but yeah. I

41:56

mentioned earlier a tough time I

41:58

went through in my years. a

42:01

pastor when I just went through

42:03

a very rough stretch. I remember

42:05

talking to another pastor during that

42:07

time and I asked him how

42:09

does he sustain you know how

42:11

does he keep at it and

42:13

I remember he lived near the

42:16

ocean and he said I go

42:18

out to the beach and I

42:20

sit on the beach for many

42:22

hours and he said I watched

42:24

the waves come in and go

42:26

out and I watched the tide

42:29

come in and go out. And

42:31

he said, the rhythm of wave

42:33

after wave after wave coming in

42:35

and going out. And then those

42:37

waves being part of the larger

42:39

tide that comes in and goes

42:41

out. And he said, and by

42:44

the end of the day, the

42:46

day is going out. And I

42:48

reminded the days come and night

42:50

comes. And the rhythm, he said,

42:52

it resituated himself out of his

42:54

own little thoughts. where his own

42:57

little thoughts were, I'm in a

42:59

mess, I've got a problem, this

43:01

person's bad at me, I've got

43:03

to solve this, that we're behind

43:05

in this payment, and you know,

43:07

just the rush of anxious thoughts

43:09

that just keep us going like

43:12

hamster and a hamster wheel, right?

43:14

It put me in a different

43:16

rhythm, he said, and it reminds

43:18

me of these larger rhythms. And

43:20

sometimes I've lately, especially recalling Dr.

43:22

B and her talking about the

43:25

ancestors. and this realization that there

43:27

are larger time frames than my

43:29

own lifespan, and that my own

43:31

lifespan is just one little wave

43:33

in a much larger tide, and

43:35

that tide is just one tide

43:37

in a much larger process. So

43:40

getting those larger time frames and

43:42

time spans, and then feeling, okay,

43:44

my job is to shine my

43:46

light. in this little time that

43:48

I have and to do what

43:50

good I can. And for each

43:53

of us thinking about being friends

43:55

of the earth in this way,

43:57

there are not eight billion. who

43:59

are waking up thinking about being

44:01

friends of the earth. But there's

44:03

not only three people either. There

44:05

are thousands and millions and I

44:08

think that number grows every day

44:10

and I think it will keep

44:12

growing in the years to come

44:14

as people wake up as the

44:16

earth demands respect. gives us harsh

44:18

realities that remind us that we're

44:21

being narcissists here and we've got

44:23

to respect, we've got to uphold

44:25

our part of the deal of

44:27

this friendship, respect the boundaries of

44:29

this human earth relationship. more and

44:31

more people are going to be

44:34

one over to being friends of

44:36

the earth. I wish they were

44:38

all caught up to me, but

44:40

I'm so far behind other people

44:42

and I came along rather late

44:44

to this myself. So that sense

44:46

of getting out in the desert,

44:49

getting out for me, you know,

44:51

or it might be at the

44:53

beach or it might be in

44:55

a forest, but getting these larger

44:57

time frames, that would be a

44:59

good thing for all of us.

45:02

Yeah, my only other thing was

45:04

going to ask you, like, is

45:06

there any kind of practical bit

45:08

that you would leave the listeners

45:10

with? All this just makes me

45:12

want to thank all of the

45:14

people who have listened to just

45:17

this episode or several episodes or

45:19

maybe are going to go back

45:21

and listen to all the episodes

45:23

in this series and to use

45:25

this series and these conversations as

45:27

ways of helping all of ourselves

45:30

become better friends to this earth

45:32

that we're part of this earth

45:34

that's been so generous to us.

45:36

This is a conversion process where

45:38

we're being converted from a social

45:40

system and an economic system that

45:42

makes us see the earth as

45:45

something to exploit, as well as

45:47

very often seeing other people as

45:49

something to exploit or ignore, to

45:51

being respectful friends in a new

45:53

kind of relationship, ultimately a relationship

45:55

of love. This year I've been

45:58

immersing myself in the writings of

46:00

Father. Barry, a brilliant Catholic thinker,

46:02

and as we know from an

46:04

earlier episode in this series, he

46:06

didn't like to call himself a

46:08

theologian, but he liked to call

46:10

himself a theologian because he didn't

46:13

want to separate God from the

46:15

earth. And of course, he was

46:17

building on the work of Taylor

46:19

de Sheridan, and he was trying

46:21

to extend Taylor's work even more

46:23

deeply. And as I've been thinking

46:26

about both of them and their

46:28

contributions, I feel like every once

46:30

in a while, I get it.

46:32

I understand that gravity is a

46:34

very elemental form of love where

46:36

things are attracted to each other,

46:38

where electric charge you know, positive

46:41

and negative being attracted to each

46:43

other. There is a form of,

46:45

that's one of the constituents in

46:47

this universe that leads to love

46:49

and hunger and thirst. There are

46:51

elemental drives that represent love in

46:54

a certain sense and it keeps

46:56

coming together in more and more

46:58

rich and deep ways. until I

47:00

think about you two as friends

47:02

whom I love and I think

47:04

I experience your love for me

47:06

and we think about other people

47:09

in our lives we love and

47:11

parents and children and cousins and

47:13

and lovers and all the rest

47:15

and suddenly every once in a

47:17

while I feel that's what this

47:19

whole thing is about and I

47:22

believe it and I know it

47:24

on a deep level and sometimes

47:26

I really feel it on an

47:28

intense level too and if this

47:30

series and this episode can contribute

47:32

to that for people that's a

47:34

good thing. Right on. Well thanks

47:37

Brian for having us. Well,

47:41

thank you all for listening to this

47:43

conversation with Brian McLaren as a friend

47:45

to both Mike and I and to

47:47

Nature. And thank you for tuning into

47:49

these last two seasons of learning how

47:51

to see. Do

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you feel called to

48:30

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