0:00

Miriam Francis was born into

0:02

Scientology in Sydney, Australia in

0:04

1984, before being moved to

0:06

Los Angeles, California in the

0:08

United States in 1990 and

0:10

later to the United Kingdom.

0:12

She returned to Australia in 2002 at

0:14

the age of 17 and remained

0:16

in Scientology until 2010. Miriam

0:19

is dedicated to using her

0:21

knowledge of and her own experiences

0:23

within the Church of Scientology. which

0:25

is officially recognized as a religion

0:27

and registered as a charity in

0:29

Australia, to advocate for the safety

0:32

of children still now undergoing what

0:34

she knows to be harmful practices.

1:10

Welcome to Let's Talk About Sex, a

1:12

podcast about cults around the world. I'm your

1:14

host, Sarah Steele. Before we get into

1:16

this episode, a content warning. This

1:19

podcast deals with issues that some

1:21

people may find disturbing, related

1:23

to emotional abuse and controlling

1:25

behaviors. This episode also includes mentions

1:27

of child sexual abuse and

1:29

trafficking. Please use your discretion as to

1:32

whether this will be suitable for you and

1:34

those around you who may be listening to.

1:36

Please also consider supporting this

1:38

project via Patreon. Let's

1:40

talk about Sex's has

1:42

now been running for

1:44

seven years and

1:47

has always remained

1:49

completely independent.

1:51

It relies on

1:54

listener support to remain

1:56

viable. Now on with

1:58

the show. into a new

2:01

flat late last year. I've received

2:03

multiple flyers in my letterbox for

2:05

Dionetics, the modern science of mental

2:08

health by Elron Hubbard. They say things

2:10

like, the unconscious, subconscious or

2:12

reactive mind is the source

2:14

of your nightmares, unreasonable fears,

2:17

upsets, and insecurity. And we only

2:19

use 10% of our mental potential.

2:21

That one comes with a picture of

2:23

Albert Einstein. The Flyers only

2:25

mention Scientology as a trademark in

2:28

incredibly small print that most people

2:30

would be unlikely to read. Recently

2:32

I was in Melbourne for a conference

2:34

and was handed a flyer by a

2:36

woman wearing a t-shirt that said I'm

2:38

a Scientologist on it. That leaflet was much

2:41

more clear about what it was pushing. It

2:43

seems that Scientology is getting more

2:45

active in their Australian recruitment

2:47

of late, which makes it a

2:49

good time to hear from a former

2:51

Scientologist about her concerns. In the wake

2:53

of updates to child safety

2:56

standards emerging from Australia's Royal

2:58

Commission into institutional responses to

3:00

child sexual abuse, Miriam Francis

3:02

wrote to Victoria's Commission for

3:04

Children and Young People, outlining the ways

3:07

in which she sees Scientology teachings

3:09

and practices to be violating these

3:11

standards. While concepts of religious

3:13

freedom and choice can muddy the

3:15

waters of certain discussions around coercive

3:18

organisations, Miriam sees the regulations and

3:20

laws to protect children. as a

3:22

key lens through which such practices

3:24

need to be viewed and pursued.

3:26

She speaks from personal experience that

3:28

spans three countries and I

3:30

know you'll find what she

3:32

has to say incredibly valuable.

3:34

So Miriam, first up, can you tell

3:37

me a bit about yourself who you

3:39

are today but also how you experienced

3:41

childhood? Yeah, thank you Sarah for

3:43

having me on your podcast. I'm

3:46

super grateful to be able to

3:48

dive into some really important topics

3:50

and... who I am, wow, that's

3:53

such a... it's such a big

3:55

question because I feel like I'm

3:58

still trying to figure... out

4:00

in some ways and also it's

4:02

been such a long journey to

4:04

even understand or form any basis

4:06

of like what that is. I

4:08

really feel like and this ties

4:11

into my childhood experience is that

4:13

Growing up in the environment that

4:15

I grew up in, and being

4:17

subjected to the practices and the

4:19

harms, and the very invasive and

4:21

destructive techniques that I experienced, and

4:23

being subjected to, you know, I

4:26

was human trafficked, I was subjected

4:28

to forced child labor, I was

4:30

told that I was a property

4:32

of the organization, I was never

4:34

allowed to dream of anything outside

4:36

of that outside of that. and

4:38

I really did not have the,

4:41

I guess, the luxury almost in

4:43

a way of experiencing a childhood

4:45

and my education was stolen from

4:47

me, you know, my basic right

4:49

to education and also my basic

4:51

right to feeling safe. I never

4:53

felt safe growing up and also

4:56

just some of the harmful teachings

4:58

as well. in this complete disregard

5:00

for the brain and the body,

5:02

it was never part of my

5:04

learning or understanding that that was

5:06

important and just so much neglect

5:09

and abuse that I experienced growing

5:11

up. So I just wanted to

5:13

encapsulate that to just say the

5:15

damage of that is that I

5:17

felt like I arrived into an

5:19

adulthood with these missing pieces, almost

5:21

as if... There were vital organs

5:24

missing and there's this really beautiful

5:26

film. It's called Never Let Me

5:28

Go. It's based on the book

5:30

by Kazuo Ishigoro. And basically it's

5:32

about these children who are in

5:34

this sort of English countryside and

5:36

they have been created for a

5:39

purpose that they don't quite fully

5:41

understand and they get to. to

5:43

begin to understand that and what

5:45

that means. And essentially, they begin

5:47

this process of where their organs

5:49

are being removed one by one.

5:52

And they don't have any say

5:54

in this, what's happening. They don't

5:56

have any control over it. They

5:58

are just in the system that

6:00

is going to be removing these

6:02

pieces. And I really feel like,

6:04

you know, that they are missing

6:07

pieces. And I almost. feel like

6:09

as well. I'm like Dorothy from

6:11

The Wizard of Oz, but I'm

6:13

also the Tin Man and the

6:15

Scarecrow and the Lion, and I'm

6:17

trying to follow the yellow big

6:19

road to try and figure out

6:22

like how do I get these

6:24

these vital organs and these pieces?

6:26

How do I discover them? Where

6:28

do I find them? And how

6:30

do I create or grow them

6:32

inside myself? And I'm also, my

6:35

life is incredibly busy, I work

6:37

full time and I have two

6:39

young children who really that's the

6:41

most important role that I have

6:43

is to be a good mother

6:45

to do a good job and

6:47

so I'm trying to balance out

6:50

like trying to figure out these

6:52

things you know what I mean

6:54

it's like this trying to figure

6:56

out the balance of maintaining a

6:58

life and surviving and all those

7:00

sorts of things and creating means

7:02

to look after myself and my

7:05

children and to provide them the

7:07

best care that I can to

7:09

make sure that they're getting a

7:11

good education, to make sure that

7:13

they're in safe environments, and that

7:15

they're able to thrive and pursue

7:17

the things that they're interested in,

7:20

and then also trying to find

7:22

some balance in trying to figure

7:24

out these missing pieces, and what

7:26

are they, and how do I

7:28

get them, basically? Yeah. It's such

7:30

a vivid and compelling way of

7:33

describing that experience and it really

7:35

makes me think to the conversation

7:37

I had recently with Maria Eschera

7:39

about exactly this. It's like children

7:41

born into these high demand groups

7:43

not having a chance to go

7:45

through those phases of childhood to

7:48

teenager to adulthood that the rest

7:50

of us kind of take for

7:52

granted. and then coming out and

7:54

trying to figure all that stuff

7:56

out. But she also said that

7:58

of the people she knows with

8:00

children who came out of the

8:03

children of God, there's some of

8:05

the best parents that she knows

8:07

and the most thoughtful and the

8:09

most caring because they're really trying

8:11

very hard not to perpetuate those

8:13

same cycles. So it's... I mean

8:16

it's heartbreaking and I'm so sorry

8:18

that that's your experience but it's

8:20

really beautiful to hear you say

8:22

that at the same time. And

8:24

I guess just going back to

8:26

the real basics on it, you

8:28

were born into Scientology whereabouts? That's

8:31

right. I was born into

8:33

Scientology in Sydney. Both of

8:35

my parents worked for Scientology

8:37

there. And actually, my mother

8:40

in 1988, when I was

8:42

three years old, she was

8:44

relocated to the US to

8:46

work for Scientology there. And

8:48

it was actually not until 1990

8:51

that myself, my brothers, and my

8:53

father then relocated over to the

8:56

US. when we were relocated in

8:58

1990 to the US, we were

9:00

placed, my brothers and I, were

9:03

placed into a child labour camp.

9:05

That is to say, we were being

9:07

raised purposefully in a facility

9:09

where we would eventually, when

9:11

our bodies grew to the

9:13

ability to perform more and

9:15

more labour, we would be

9:17

placed into positions within Scientology

9:19

to work. And that was

9:21

what we were taught, you

9:23

know, as a mention being

9:25

told that we were essentially

9:27

property of Scientology and in

9:29

2001 they relocated me to England

9:31

so I also have experiences in

9:33

Scientology within the organization in England

9:36

as well and eventually I was

9:38

able to get out in 2002

9:40

I relocated back to Australia which

9:42

is where I live today and

9:44

I live in the state of

9:46

Victoria. And I guess I wanted

9:48

to include that in the conversation

9:50

to say that my experiences span

9:52

over three countries and so I

9:54

can really speak to the consistency

9:56

in how the policies and the

9:58

practices are applied and I think that's

10:00

really important for this discussion. I'm

10:03

really wanting to focus on what

10:05

I can do within my own

10:08

state of Victoria in raising awareness

10:10

for the harms of children in

10:12

Scientology, but really all these things

10:15

apply broadly on a global scale.

10:17

Yep, really important point. And so

10:20

on that subject there have been

10:22

a variety of child safe standards

10:24

implemented across Australian states and territories

10:27

over the years. But a new

10:29

set of standards have more recently

10:32

been recommended out of the Royal

10:34

Commission into institutional responses to child

10:36

sexual abuse. Can you tell me

10:39

your understanding of what these standards

10:41

are looking to achieve? Yes, absolutely.

10:43

In summary, really what this is

10:46

seeking to achieve is to reach

10:48

beyond these closed door systems in

10:51

organizations which care or provide services

10:53

to children. And this has evolved

10:55

in a few different ways. There's

10:58

been some amendments along the ways

11:00

as a result of various reviews,

11:03

but actually this originated back in

11:05

The Act was created in 2005,

11:07

the Child Safety and Well-being Act

11:10

2005, which was then came into

11:12

effect in 2006, and this really

11:15

created a regulatory and enforcement sort

11:17

of framework where it then becomes,

11:19

these are legal requirements, and then

11:22

over time it was amended in

11:24

various ways. Most significantly... is in

11:27

regard to the Royal Commission. Now

11:29

what happened as a result of

11:31

that is that the Australian government

11:34

on a national level created child

11:36

safety principles and these set of

11:39

principles were then they have to

11:41

be implemented across all the states.

11:43

So just so that everyone understands

11:46

that there are these same principles

11:48

across every state and territory in

11:51

Australia. Each state is responsible for

11:53

governing their own sort of way

11:55

that they do that in terms

11:58

of where the That sits, like

12:00

what body regulates that and exactly

12:02

how they implement it. But there

12:05

is a standardization there across on

12:07

a national basis. Now in Victoria,

12:10

Victoria was really at the forefront

12:12

of this child safety set of

12:14

standards. They already created their own.

12:17

They also had the reportable conduct

12:19

scheme in place as well. They

12:22

had the regulatory body and compliance

12:24

structure already set up. And methods

12:26

of enforcing that, etc. So when

12:29

this became a national requirement, then

12:31

Victoria simply updated their standards to

12:34

incorporate the national ones and make

12:36

sure that that's with the same

12:38

standard. Now, it's important to understand

12:41

that all legislation regarding child safety

12:43

and protection is fundamentally based in

12:46

or guided by the UN Convention

12:48

on the Rights of the Child,

12:50

which Australia ratified in 1990. And

12:53

what that does is it provides

12:55

this lens to view everything through.

12:58

So this is something that, for

13:00

example, is used all the time

13:02

in family court situations where the

13:05

court is going to make decisions

13:07

that's based on what's in the

13:09

UN Convention on the Rights of

13:12

the Child. The UN Convention on

13:14

the Rights of the Child holds

13:17

as the primary, which is it

13:19

prioritizes above all else, is the

13:21

best interest of the child. So

13:24

you often hear that in court

13:26

decisions, this is the best interest

13:29

of the child. Now it's really

13:31

important to understand this gives a

13:33

lot of context. So just to

13:36

encapsulate that to say that these

13:38

child safety... standards really originate from

13:41

the UN Convention on the Rights

13:43

of the Child. And what's really

13:45

important to understand is that there

13:48

is this, you know, there's these

13:50

two things that are involved here.

13:53

You've got the right to freedom

13:55

and you have the right to

13:57

protection for children. And really this

14:00

UN Convention on the Rights of

14:02

the Child... recognizes that children do

14:05

have special needs. That's why this

14:07

was created, right? Now, the distinction

14:09

here is children have rights to

14:12

freedom, rights to protection. But the

14:14

guiding principle in having that prioritize

14:17

on their best interest means that

14:19

although they have freedoms. their rights

14:21

to protection supersedes that in other

14:24

words when you're looking at this

14:26

in the religious organization context which

14:28

is important for this discussion or

14:31

groups and organizations that sort of

14:33

thing really the and it's very

14:35

clear that the well-being and safety

14:38

of the child their best interests

14:40

is more of a priority than

14:42

their religious rights so you cannot

14:44

argue abuse in the name of

14:47

religion. Abuse is abuse. It's not

14:49

about, oh, this person has the

14:51

right to be abused because they're

14:53

in a religion. When you're talking

14:55

about a child, their right to

14:58

protection is greater than their right

15:00

to practice in that religion. Thank

15:02

you so much for providing

15:04

that context that we're going to

15:06

kind of dig into how Scientology

15:09

may not be putting the well-being

15:11

of the child first in a

15:13

moment, but just in terms of

15:15

the national redress scheme which came

15:18

out of the Royal Commission. So

15:20

the Church of Scientology has not

15:22

joined the redress scheme and that

15:24

one is about childhood sexual abuse

15:27

in institutions and holding those institutions

15:29

to account. In addition, the organization

15:31

wasn't named like the Jehovah's Witnesses

15:33

in Kenya, where in early 2021,

15:35

as an institution refusing to join

15:37

in spite of claims against them,

15:39

this would suggest to me that

15:41

there were no reports of child

15:43

sexual abuse to the Royal Commission,

15:46

but I understand that's not quite right,

15:48

is it? Yeah, so with the national

15:50

redress scheme, that's optional

15:52

for organizations, which seems to be,

15:54

I don't feel that that's correct or right. But

15:57

yeah, you're right. You know, I've scoured the

15:59

report and I... I can't see Scientology

16:01

listed there under the list of

16:03

organizations. Now I don't know if

16:06

or why that is. I really can't

16:08

speak to why they're not included,

16:10

but I did report to the

16:12

Royal Commission in 2013. So yeah,

16:14

but I can't speak to why

16:16

it's not in there. I also

16:18

do know I have personal contact

16:20

with another Australian who experienced child

16:22

sexual abuse, which was covered up

16:24

by the organization. They also filed

16:26

their report with the Royal Commission.

16:28

So that's two of us. And

16:31

I only know that through, you

16:33

know, that personal contact. I don't

16:35

know if or how many other people

16:37

did make a report. But yeah, it

16:39

was disheartening to see that it's not

16:41

listed. And there really is a need

16:43

for greater awareness for what Scientology

16:45

does in this regard to cover

16:48

up crimes. Yeah, and then when

16:50

it comes to reporting crimes such

16:52

as child sexual abuse, what

16:54

can you tell me about

16:57

the specific teachings of this

16:59

organization and how they might

17:01

impact an individual considering seeking

17:03

external assistance from the authorities? Right,

17:06

so a psychologist is not

17:08

allowed to report outside the

17:10

organization. This is... listed in

17:12

policy as a high crime.

17:15

So if you report a

17:17

Scientology organization to external authorities,

17:20

then yeah, it's a punishable,

17:22

it's considered a high crime,

17:24

which is the highest order

17:27

of crime. And so the

17:29

punishment for that would be

17:32

that you get expelled from

17:34

the organization and that potentially

17:37

you could lose. all your relationships

17:39

because you get excommunicated and

17:41

not only that is then

17:43

you're subjected to what is

17:45

called fair game which is

17:47

they're going to go after

17:49

you they will threaten harass

17:51

intimidate her harm you in

17:53

any way fair game means

17:55

that they have got an

17:57

unfettered ability to harm you

17:59

And that's very scary when you're

18:02

up against an entire organization. So

18:04

really when you are considering reporting

18:06

a crime, you're not just taking

18:08

into consideration already what can be

18:11

very overwhelming and intimidating to report

18:13

the perpetrator, right? Just that in

18:15

itself. And there's many reasons why

18:17

people... don't report and actually when

18:20

you're talking about sexual assault it's

18:22

amongst the least reported crime. So

18:24

there's already these barriers to reporting

18:26

but when you're talking about when

18:29

this occurs within an organization and

18:31

you have to consider being up

18:33

against an entire organization it is

18:35

incredibly intimidating and the fear is

18:38

it immobilizes you and that's the

18:40

whole purpose of it. Yep, 100%.

18:42

You wrote to the Commission for

18:44

Children and Young People of Victoria

18:47

with some of your concerns about

18:49

whether and how the Church of

18:51

Scientology is willing or able to

18:53

adhere to the child safe standards.

18:56

I'd like to dig into the

18:58

areas that you mentioned, if that's

19:00

okay. Yeah. The Commission for Children

19:02

and Young People is the governing

19:05

body in Victoria that enforces and

19:07

oversees and requires compliance to the

19:09

Child Safety and Wellbeing Act, which

19:11

includes the child safety standards and

19:14

the reportable conduct scheme. So they're

19:16

really the ones that are overseeing

19:18

this and they actually have the

19:20

ability to go into an organization

19:23

to ask and inquire and to

19:25

investigate and follow-up on reports. Yeah,

19:27

essentially audit an organization to check

19:29

that they're in compliance and if

19:32

they're not, they do have the

19:34

ability, you have to understand that

19:36

this is a law, so there

19:38

is abilities to pursue criminal action

19:41

as well for violating it or

19:43

neglecting, installing these policies in place,

19:45

and really it's to create this

19:47

child safety culture. And if that

19:50

is not present, then it really

19:52

is a matter of law for

19:54

that to be. pursued. Yeah, absolutely.

19:56

And so looking at the things

19:59

that you mentioned and obviously yeah

20:01

this is the appropriate body to

20:03

be raising them too and you

20:05

know I'm interested to know how

20:08

they might respond. But firstly can

20:10

you tell me about Scientology's auditing

20:12

sessions in terms of how they

20:14

operate from what age and how

20:17

they're experienced by children? Yeah, absolutely.

20:19

So... The auditing session, so this

20:21

is the term that Scientology and

20:23

it's Hubbard is, Aaron Hubbard is

20:26

the person who wrote and created

20:28

these techniques and he called it

20:30

auditing. And what it actually is,

20:32

is interrogating the scenario of what

20:35

an auditing session looks like in

20:37

the sort of physical sense, is

20:39

that a, and we're going to

20:41

take a child and adult in

20:44

this scenario. So the child is

20:46

the one that is receiving this

20:48

service or these practices and the

20:50

adult is the one that is

20:53

enacting the practices on the child.

20:55

Now, they will enter a room,

20:57

the door will be closed, and

20:59

the child is positioned away from

21:02

the door, the practitioner is positioned

21:04

closer to the door. This is

21:06

in writing, this is the process,

21:08

this is how it must go.

21:11

And the reason for that is

21:13

because if the child gets up

21:15

or attempts to leave, the quote

21:17

auditor, which is what... their term

21:20

is, is required to stop that

21:22

child from leaving the room. This

21:24

is part of the auditor training

21:26

and I actually did this training

21:29

as a child myself in the

21:31

US and there's quite extensive training

21:33

which is you learn how to

21:35

control another person. It's what you're

21:38

learning is to exact a perfect

21:40

perfect control basically smooth control but

21:42

you are taught to you place

21:44

that child back in that chair

21:47

if they are attempting to leave

21:49

and There are a couple of

21:51

sort of guiding principles. One of

21:53

them is the way out is

21:56

the way through. So that means

21:58

that if the child is having

22:00

difficulty within that session, then the

22:02

auditor is to pursue and to

22:04

keep going and keep going. Now

22:07

this completely annihilates the idea of

22:09

consent. There is no consent in

22:11

this room in this environment of

22:13

this session that I'm describing. And

22:16

this is the policy and practice.

22:18

This is the way that these

22:20

sessions take place. The way out

22:22

is the way through means that

22:25

we will keep persisting until we

22:27

reach the angle. Yeah, so that's

22:29

one thing. And yeah, so the

22:31

lack of consent in that environment.

22:34

And the other thing is this

22:36

principle which is... earlier similar. So

22:38

the auditor is always pushing the

22:40

child or the individual could be

22:43

an adult to this earlier similar

22:45

incident because Haber had said that

22:47

everything was, you know, it's a

22:49

chain of memories. So if you're

22:52

talking about something, let's say that

22:54

you're upset about in current day,

22:56

and let's say you talk about

22:58

it, but you're still upset. Okay,

23:01

well then that means it's something

23:03

earlier similar. What that does is

23:05

it then creates this like this

23:07

pursuit of going earlier going earlier

23:10

right now what happens is then

23:12

eventually you end up in the

23:14

womb basically because how how far

23:16

back can you go and so

23:19

so then suddenly you're having these

23:21

memories that are in the womb

23:23

and the next minute you're having

23:25

memories prior to that which are

23:28

these previous lifetimes Now, a child

23:30

is very capable of imagination, and

23:32

when I was a kid, I

23:34

also went through these sessions, and

23:37

this occurs, and, you know, earlier,

23:39

similar, and going back, they said,

23:41

what are you looking at? And

23:43

I said, oh, okay, this is

23:46

image of this, and I describe

23:48

it, and they're like, okay, what

23:50

do you see? What do you

23:52

feel? What do you hear? So

23:55

I'm saying, like, like, oh, it

23:57

can't possibly be from this lifetime,

23:59

dinosaur there, right? And as a

24:01

kid, I'm like, I think this

24:04

is my imagination and they're

24:06

just like, they don't acknowledge

24:08

that that's a possibility. And what

24:10

they then do is they say,

24:12

they disregard that and they say,

24:14

keep talking about it and keep talking

24:16

about it and we're going to

24:18

pull in more information. What do

24:21

you see? What do you feel?

24:23

What do you hear? What do

24:25

you hear? What do you smell?

24:27

What do you smell? What do

24:29

you smell? then become super real,

24:32

like really real. And you then

24:34

create this fully structured idea of

24:36

what happened, this memory, which

24:38

I believe could be a

24:40

false memory, creation, because now

24:43

you've pulled in all these

24:45

senses and now it feels

24:47

like you literally lived that.

24:49

And so this is called,

24:51

you know, going past life.

24:54

Yeah, so I think that the

24:56

child has no... context to their

24:58

experiences, right? And they're very capable

25:00

of imagination. I think that this

25:02

can be harmful in creating things

25:04

like this. And then just that

25:06

environment of really not being able

25:08

to have a say, this is

25:10

a direct violation of the UN

25:12

Convention on the Rights of the

25:14

Child, is that the child has

25:16

a say in the things that

25:18

affect them. The child is able

25:20

to say, stop. these sorts of

25:22

things and in that environment in

25:24

the auditing session there is no ability

25:26

for the child to say that. I remember

25:29

one time when I was experiencing this over

25:31

a period of a couple weeks and I

25:33

was about eight years old and I just

25:35

kept saying like I need to go to

25:37

the toilet just so I could get out

25:39

of the room. and go to the bathroom

25:42

and then I would just hide in the

25:44

bathroom for as long as I could and

25:46

the auditor would be at the door trying

25:48

to coax me out and I would be

25:50

making up all kinds of excuses you know

25:52

I'd be just running the water for ages

25:54

like it just is incredibly invasive experience that

25:56

I just felt like I wanted to do

25:59

anything to get out of, but I

26:01

couldn't because I couldn't even voice that.

26:03

I didn't want to do it or

26:05

anything like that. Yeah, and it

26:07

just strikes me that if this

26:09

was like a psychological practice not

26:11

within, you know, this organization, I

26:13

mean, it would be studied as

26:15

to whether it is psychologically harmful

26:17

and I mean, is this at

26:19

all? studied in terms of the

26:22

well-being of the child as a

26:24

parent? Right, okay. So really great

26:26

question. So as early as 1965,

26:28

we had the Anderson report, which

26:30

was also as a result of

26:33

a Victorian inquiry. I do love

26:35

my state of Victoria for these

26:37

things, but the report was done

26:39

by Kevin Victor Anderson, 1965. and

26:42

the report is so extensive and

26:44

so damning in regards to the

26:46

harms of Scientology of Hubbard's practices.

26:48

I mean it literally would just

26:50

like reading it it just makes

26:52

your hair stand on end. It

26:54

is so vividly descriptive and it's

26:57

absolutely true. I've only read it

26:59

in recent times like you know in the

27:01

recent years and I just was so incredibly

27:03

blown away that this is

27:05

a report from 1965, so

27:07

early on, in fact, only

27:09

15 years after the beginning,

27:11

which originated with dienetics, this

27:13

book, dienetics, and this principle

27:15

of the auditing, this is

27:17

what I described, this is,

27:19

originates from dienetics, and we're

27:22

going to talk about that

27:24

particular book at some point,

27:26

but now for that report,

27:28

unfortunately, And also one of

27:30

the things that it

27:33

said in the report

27:35

is that it actually

27:37

creates perversion because you're

27:40

asking such invasive questions

27:42

of the person and

27:45

you're completely stripped of

27:47

any kind of rights

27:49

really in that basically

27:52

the session itself is

27:54

so abusive that it

27:57

sends a person to

27:59

this This is questions that children

28:01

are asked. What's something you're ashamed

28:04

to tell anybody about? What wouldn't

28:06

you want known? Okay, so those

28:08

are the type of questions. And

28:10

there are questions about. like what

28:13

haven't you told anybody along those

28:15

lines and it does tend to

28:17

end up in these sexual context

28:19

memories or scenarios or admissions including

28:21

masturbation and that sort of thing.

28:24

So it actually said in this

28:26

report in 1965 that it actually

28:28

creates perversion in the person receiving

28:30

this practice. these hybrid practices. Now

28:33

at the time they really didn't

28:35

have a lot of data on

28:37

children in Scientology because really there

28:39

wasn't a whole lot of children

28:42

in Scientology. I think they like

28:44

identified that there was like 15

28:46

in one location and they really

28:48

couldn't get the data but what

28:51

Kevin Victor Anderson said in his

28:53

report is that he believed that

28:55

the practices would be just as

28:57

harmful for children as they are

29:00

for adults. Now I would argue

29:02

with what we now know today,

29:04

you know, so extensively about psychology

29:06

and child development and brain development,

29:09

all these sorts of things, is

29:11

that in fact these practices would

29:13

be far more harmful for children

29:15

than they are for adults. And

29:18

I don't know if you're familiar

29:20

with the recent, and this is

29:22

kind of we're going to get

29:24

off track for a second, but...

29:27

the recent allegations against Neil Gaiman,

29:29

which are pretty horrific, and he

29:31

was a child from the age

29:33

of five years old, so when

29:36

you ask me about age, from

29:38

five years old he was experiencing

29:40

these practices, particularly diagnetics, because this

29:42

is going back to the same

29:45

time period in the 60s, and

29:47

He experienced these practices quite extensively.

29:49

His parents were very excited about

29:51

dietics and then later Scientology, they

29:53

both got involved in the organization.

29:56

And so, yeah, I just think

29:58

these, these of a person at

30:00

such a young developmental age is

30:02

so damaging in a lot of

30:05

ways, I think this is my

30:07

opinion, could even lead to the

30:09

ability to even recognize consent. And

30:11

I will kind of support that

30:14

in saying that we have the

30:16

Gloria Vell cult group and we've

30:18

learned a lot about that in

30:20

recent years. Now in Gloria Vell,

30:23

one of the teachings is that...

30:25

Essentially the woman must submit to

30:27

the man no matter what and

30:29

she can't object to him in

30:32

other words She doesn't have the

30:34

ability to consent because he can

30:36

just have it whenever and however

30:38

he wants to now I listen

30:41

to some child survivors who Left

30:43

and they just I mean just

30:45

the emotion in their voice when

30:47

they're talking about the fact that

30:50

they harmed their wives Because they

30:52

didn't understand that they were hurting

30:54

them. This is the legacy, like

30:56

this is the harm to children

30:59

in these environments is that we're

31:01

missing pieces. Like for someone to

31:03

not even be able to recognize

31:05

or understand that they're hurting another

31:08

person, this is really really terrible

31:10

stuff that we have to address

31:12

and we have to start doing

31:14

it now and we have to

31:16

start looking after the safety and

31:19

well-being of the children and that's

31:21

where my focus is. is on

31:23

the experiences of the children. Yeah,

31:25

yeah, and endorse everything that you've

31:28

just said. And I think that

31:30

neatly leads into a specific part

31:32

of diagnetics that you might have

31:34

on hand there as it relates

31:37

to, well, I guess to consent

31:39

and to... auditing and children. I

31:41

wonder if you could just read

31:43

that specific extract out for us.

31:46

Yeah, I will. And what I'll

31:48

also say is like just to,

31:50

because there's a couple of terms

31:52

in here and one of the

31:55

terms used is an ingram. And

31:57

when I was talking about earlier,

31:59

where they're asking me, like, what

32:01

do you see? So what I'm

32:04

looking at is potentially an Ingram,

32:06

which is described by Hubbard as

32:08

a mental image picture. It's

32:10

essentially like an image of

32:12

a memory of an experience. And

32:15

with the auditing session, then you're

32:17

basically kind of like strengthening that

32:19

experience by bringing in these other

32:22

senses. So this term he'll use

32:24

here is Ingram. And again, it

32:26

also. in this short paragraph you'll see

32:29

that it kind of brings in

32:31

as well that there's something earlier

32:33

that's wrong there's earlier something wrong

32:35

right and also again this mentions

32:37

a seven-year-old child so again you

32:39

can understand like to answer your

32:41

question again of like when does

32:43

this start to around seven years

32:45

old but there's also other practices

32:47

that start earlier than that that

32:49

are I would say less invasive

32:51

and then the really invasive stuff

32:53

can start from as early as

32:55

seven or eight so This paragraph

32:57

is in the book

32:59

Dionetics, which is the

33:01

foundational text. This is

33:03

called Dionetics the Modern

33:06

Science of Mental Health.

33:08

Really, Hubbard's positioning this

33:10

as a mental science,

33:12

and these are, he

33:14

includes in here instructions

33:16

for the practitioners that

33:18

are using this practice. So,

33:20

it says... The first axiom is of

33:23

interest to the auditor in his

33:25

work because with it he can

33:27

clearly establish whether or not he

33:29

is confronting a rational reaction. So

33:32

just so you understand, the basis

33:34

of dynamics is that people are

33:36

behaving irrationally because they have these

33:38

ingrams that they haven't cleared up.

33:41

This is this idea of going

33:43

clear, right? So you're supposed to

33:45

sort through all these ingrams, these

33:47

mental image pictures. to the point

33:49

you're going to go earlier, similar,

33:52

earlier, similar, early, similar on these

33:54

chains of memories, and then you're

33:56

going to eventually become cleared of

33:58

all these memories. So the auditor

34:00

is really trained to spot when

34:03

a reaction is rational and not

34:05

reactional, right? And so basically like,

34:07

whether this is valid or not,

34:09

I guess is what I'm trying

34:11

to say. So this paragraph goes

34:13

on to say, the seven-year-old girl

34:15

who shudders because a man kisses

34:18

her is not computing. She is

34:20

reacting to an ingram since at

34:22

seven, she should see nothing wrong

34:24

in a kiss, not even a

34:26

passionate one. There must have been

34:28

an earlier experience, possibly prenatal, which

34:30

made men or kissing very bad.

34:33

All departures from optimum rationality are

34:35

useful in locating ingrams. All unreasonable

34:37

fears and so forth are griced

34:39

to the auditor's mill. So, and

34:41

there's a lot of terminology in

34:43

there, but if you could just

34:45

say from hearing that, what's your

34:48

understanding of what that paragraph means?

34:50

I mean, yeah, to me it

34:52

is talking about a child having

34:54

a reaction to even a passionate

34:56

kiss from an adult male, it

34:58

being an irrational response to have

35:00

a negative response to that would

35:03

be irrational, which is, I mean,

35:05

that just sounds highly dangerous as

35:07

a teaching to me. It's extremely

35:09

dangerous and this is really the

35:11

core of the harm, the danger

35:13

of Scientology when you're talking about

35:16

children. So you'll see in there

35:18

is this idea of completely disregarding

35:20

what the child is presenting to

35:22

you. Again, this is a complete

35:24

violation of this UN Convention of

35:26

the Rights of the Child, that

35:28

this is still a practice and

35:31

this is still a paragraph in

35:33

a book that Scientology continues to

35:35

sell and promote to this day.

35:37

You know, because actually the UN

35:39

Convention of the Rights of Child

35:41

says that the child can say

35:43

what's happening to them, right? And

35:46

that we need to be responsive

35:48

to that, and we need to

35:50

that. And we need to that.

35:52

And we need to be responsive

35:54

to that. And we need to

35:56

that. protective of their needs. And

35:58

what this is saying is that

36:01

we are going to completely disregard

36:03

what they're saying because this is

36:05

not a rational reaction. In fact,

36:07

what's being described there, a adult

36:09

male potentially passionately kissing a seven-year-old

36:11

child, is sexual assault, right? Sexual

36:13

abuse. So... I mean there's everything

36:16

wrong with this, this being in

36:18

here, like being taught to people,

36:20

but again this is in the

36:22

core of Scientology because when a

36:24

child speaks up and says I've

36:26

been sexually abused like I did

36:28

and like I spoke up, it's

36:31

disregarded as something that needs to

36:33

be addressed or responded to or

36:35

resolved because the idea is that

36:37

the only reason why you're complaining

36:39

about that is because there's something

36:41

that you did, right? There's something

36:43

in a previous memory or lifetime,

36:46

something else is the problem that's

36:48

making this something that you're upset

36:50

about. It also completely negates emotions

36:52

and there's also a number of

36:54

ways that Scientology does that. We're

36:56

going to touch on one of

36:58

those examples today, but in so

37:01

many ways... the child's reaction is

37:03

not valid. And again, that's that's

37:05

really what these child safety standards

37:07

and the child safety and well-being

37:09

act is all about because it's

37:11

really recognizing that the child's reactions

37:13

are completely valid and we've learned

37:16

so much from the Royal Commission

37:18

and all these things. Yeah. Yep.

37:20

And one thing you mentioned which

37:22

I think relates to the following

37:24

question is a about the information

37:26

that's often being pulled out of

37:29

people at these auditing sessions. So

37:31

what can you tell me about

37:33

overt and withholds, what they are,

37:35

and what happens with the information

37:37

recorded about them? Yeah, great question.

37:39

So. In the auditing session, they

37:41

can be interrogating about overt some

37:44

withholds. Now an over is something

37:46

that is a transgression. It's something

37:48

that you did that's considered wrong

37:50

or bad. A withhold is the

37:52

not telling or thinking that someone

37:54

might know or could know or

37:56

whatever and then you have this

37:59

instinct to like... not tell them.

38:01

Like, oh, I almost got found

38:03

out about that kind of feeling.

38:05

So with that, that's definitely something

38:07

that the auditor is going to

38:09

be inquiring about and digging into

38:11

and interrogating the person or the

38:14

child on. Now there's also another

38:16

method called the over and withholds

38:18

right up, which is actually something

38:20

that the person does themselves. And

38:22

I did this as a kid,

38:24

and many kids have done this,

38:26

probably are continuing to do it

38:29

in Scientology, because it is a

38:31

regular practice, where you will sit

38:33

down and you'll write up in

38:35

detail, in absolute detail, of all

38:37

the facts of the things that

38:39

you did. And this... does typically

38:41

tend to include things like masturbation

38:44

or early sexual experiences of like

38:46

how you're trying to you know

38:48

figure out these things that you

38:50

have experiences with your first boyfriend

38:52

or girlfriend or whatever you know

38:54

what I mean so and it's

38:56

things that you're ashamed about things

38:59

that you're embarrassed about So whether

39:01

you do this in the session

39:03

scenario or whether you do this

39:05

writing it up yourself and actually

39:07

I have heard from child survivors

39:09

that had their caregiver required them

39:11

to write this up in the

39:14

home so whether that was a

39:16

parent or a guardian required them

39:18

to write these up in the

39:20

home and actually they read them

39:22

themselves and then they would get

39:24

turned over to the organization then

39:26

you might have somebody like a

39:29

handler then requires you to do

39:31

you know punitive actions or to

39:33

address whatever it is that you've

39:35

written in there. All in all

39:37

between these two different methods that

39:39

I've described, this information gets held

39:42

on file indefinitely. There's no... specific

39:44

privacy agreement. There's no agreement to

39:46

when you're able to remove that

39:48

information or like you don't have

39:50

a right to that information. That

39:52

gets held on file for for

39:54

the rest of your life. And

39:57

this is particularly even more harmful

39:59

with regards to children because they

40:01

don't yet understand things like that.

40:03

They don't understand. They're just doing

40:05

what their parent told them to

40:07

do. They're trying to be a

40:09

good kid, you know what I

40:12

mean? And they believe that. If

40:14

I write these down, then I'm

40:16

going to be a better child.

40:18

Also, essentially, that could mean that

40:20

you might be better loved. Do

40:22

you know what I mean? More

40:24

valued. And you don't have the

40:27

context or the understanding of a

40:29

life lived. where you had rights

40:31

intact, you know what I mean?

40:33

So yeah, this is very violating.

40:35

And also, can I just like,

40:37

I wanna pause on it for

40:39

a moment because I just feel

40:42

like I wanna dwell on like

40:44

how horrifying that sounds to, like,

40:46

I think all of us outside

40:48

of Scientology, we have these things

40:50

that we flash back to and

40:52

it makes our stomach drop a

40:54

bit that we did something that

40:57

we were really ashamed, a wish

40:59

that never happened. And to have

41:01

that. all the things that you're

41:03

deeply ashamed about on a file

41:05

somewhere that you have no right

41:07

to destroy and other people have

41:09

access to like it's a horrifying

41:12

concept and I just feel like

41:14

yeah for those of us who

41:16

don't have never experienced this I

41:18

think just have a think about

41:20

what that would feel like because

41:22

it just I can't even really

41:24

get my head around it and

41:27

sorry to interrupt you but please

41:29

continue I hope I didn't ruin

41:31

your train of thought. You're absolutely

41:33

correct and the contents of these

41:35

are those, you know, embarrassing moments,

41:37

those shameful experiences, those, oh I

41:39

wish I'd never done that, or

41:42

you know, and when you're a

41:44

kid when you're too silly to

41:46

understand certain things, like it's another

41:48

piece that they took from you

41:50

and they will never give it

41:52

back. you know this concept never

41:55

let me go like how do

41:57

I walk away how do I

41:59

survive the fact that an organization

42:01

keeps on file my earliest memories

42:03

and and any number of people

42:05

can access that and I have

42:07

no control over that I never

42:10

had any ability to consent to

42:12

that the practice in itself was

42:14

abusive so how can this be

42:16

allowed to continue yeah yeah exactly

42:18

huge question how is this just

42:20

allowed to continue yeah thank you

42:22

for sharing that and I guess

42:25

I want to try and attempt

42:27

to put other people in the

42:29

mind frame of what that must

42:31

feel like for you and it's

42:33

hard to imagine. What can you

42:35

tell me about Elron Hubbard's tone

42:37

scale and how this impacts children

42:40

in their emotional development? Yeah, so

42:42

the tone scale is this kind

42:44

of structure of the scale of

42:46

various emotions, which at the top

42:48

it's like, amazing, like... There's these

42:50

cartoons as how we were taught

42:52

it as kids. It was actually

42:55

in this cartoon form. So you

42:57

have like this little like really

42:59

kind of like sparkly like vibrant

43:01

kind of emoji type thing. And

43:03

then at the bottom it's just

43:05

like, oh like one of the

43:07

pieces on the scale is like

43:10

body death. And then there's actually

43:12

I think emotions below body death.

43:14

This is like, you know, I

43:16

haven't looked at this scale for

43:18

so long, but basically gives this

43:20

range of emotions and it tells

43:22

us as a child informs us

43:25

that certain emotions are good and

43:27

acceptable and are okay and certain

43:29

emotions are not okay and also

43:31

that having those emotions actually mean

43:33

really terrible things about you so

43:35

if you are at this level

43:37

on the tone scale actually that

43:40

means that you're really degraded terrible

43:42

awful person. And actually, like, for

43:44

example, there's a level on the

43:46

tone scale that specifically homosexuals, this

43:48

is as Hubbard described it, are

43:50

in that category and actually they

43:52

hide their evil with a smile

43:55

on their face. So like that

43:57

kind of emoji that represented that.

43:59

was kind of like this fuzzball

44:01

with like a grin on his

44:03

face and then holding a piece

44:05

of wood with a nail in

44:08

it behind their back. So it

44:10

really informs you not only about

44:12

where this emotion sits on the

44:14

scale, but actually what does that

44:16

mean about you and your degree

44:18

of inner evil and awfulness and

44:21

degradedness and disgustingness,

44:23

right? So as a kid, you don't

44:25

want to be on the bottom

44:27

end of this scale. One of

44:29

the things I had a lot

44:31

of trouble with in my childhood

44:33

because I was frequently and consistently

44:35

separated from my mother. So even

44:37

after we moved to the US,

44:39

she was already at this international

44:41

base and I was at this other

44:44

base in Los Angeles and throughout my

44:46

whole childhood I was separated from her,

44:48

I would see her very periodically. So

44:50

I had so much grief about that.

44:52

I was I was crying like I

44:54

would just have bouts of just just

44:56

crying and crying, unstoppable. It was really

44:59

hard because I was like, I have

45:01

to not feel that emotion. I have

45:03

to not show that emotion. I need

45:05

to not express it. But then it

45:08

would just kind of suddenly be pouring

45:10

out of me and then I didn't

45:12

know how to control that. And then

45:14

that felt awful because I'm not uncontrolled

45:17

my emotions. Everything just felt confusing with

45:19

regards to feelings and how I felt

45:21

about things. And this... absolutely is the

45:23

work that I'm still doing today in

45:26

regards to this like I'm still that's

45:28

another missing piece that was taken from

45:30

me and I'm trying to figure out

45:33

like how do I and I've done

45:35

a lot of work on this recently

45:37

but how do I safely experience emotions

45:40

and also to and this is

45:42

some of the stuff that I've

45:44

learned more recently is like now

45:46

I understand that my emotions are

45:48

actually informing me of something there

45:51

my message to say how I

45:53

feel so then my brain can

45:55

interpret like okay what do we

45:57

do right and it's like this

46:00

brain body connection that is so

46:02

important for a person's survival and

46:04

well-being. This is really talked about

46:06

by Bessel Vanderkolk and he's done

46:08

so much extensive work about this

46:10

brain body connection and the importance

46:13

of feeling safety. His book is

46:15

The Body Keeps the Score. It's

46:17

a really really important book and

46:19

I would say that that book

46:21

is really the antidote to this

46:24

Scientology situation. So I guess that

46:26

I hope that provides... some understanding,

46:28

but associating emotions with a

46:30

negativity and a negative Significance

46:32

to what that means about

46:34

yourself and then trying to

46:36

stop and control and inhibit

46:38

that It's a lot of

46:40

work that a child is

46:42

trying to do and all

46:44

of that to prevent them

46:46

from naturally experiencing and expressing

46:48

emotion. It's incredibly harmful for

46:51

the development Yeah, it sounds hugely

46:53

damaging and yeah, that you should

46:55

need to do that work now

46:57

to have that What it seems

46:59

to me is a very natural

47:01

understanding of if I feel an

47:03

emotion Where is it coming from

47:05

how do I? Process that like

47:07

it's trying to tell me something

47:09

like yeah Oh, yeah, I'm so

47:11

sorry that you've been dealing with

47:13

that and I mean, I'm

47:15

glad to hear that you're

47:17

doing this work on it,

47:19

but I can't imagine how

47:21

hard that that must be

47:23

What can you tell me

47:26

about ethics conditions? Okay, so

47:28

ethics conditions are they were

47:30

created by Hubbard and they

47:32

are really like a sort

47:34

of a reconditioning program. They're

47:36

like a series of steps

47:38

and a person would get

47:40

assigned to a condition, which

47:42

means it's another, like labeling,

47:44

like, you're in the condition

47:46

of treason. So you've done

47:48

something that was treasonous to

47:51

the group. And this could

47:53

be some minor infraction or

47:55

rule breaking or whatever it

47:57

is, but for them, that's

47:59

treason. So you betrayed their

48:01

trust and there's this series,

48:03

so there's various like conditions

48:05

in their terms and what

48:07

they mean in the steps

48:10

that you do. But essentially

48:12

what it is is that

48:14

it's all of it is

48:16

geared around Scientology. So all

48:18

these kind of decisions and

48:20

that you're making within this

48:22

conditions formula is for Scientology

48:25

and choosing Scientology. And I

48:27

just think in terms of

48:29

coercive control, that's a pretty

48:31

key piece of coercive control

48:33

that exists in Scientology. And

48:36

this can be used on

48:38

children, so... The child needs to make

48:40

amends to rejoin the group. This

48:42

is the liability formula because they've

48:45

been deemed a liability. And this

48:47

is like awful words. Again, it

48:49

can be useful for adults. Like

48:52

I can see a situation where

48:54

that can be useful if an

48:56

adult chose that to do that

48:58

practice. you know, for themselves, right?

49:01

But when we're talking about children,

49:03

they don't have the same context

49:05

or life experiences, they're not advocated

49:08

for here. So it's really in

49:10

terms of when you're looking at a

49:12

child, even though there is harm in

49:14

that being done for an adult as

49:16

well. But for a child it's even

49:18

more so because they just don't have

49:21

really any kind of barrier or protections

49:23

in place there. So part of the

49:25

liability formula for example is that they

49:27

need to make amends to get back

49:29

into the group. They have to actually

49:31

submit and ask basically am I worthy

49:34

enough to be accepted back into the

49:36

group and they have to list out

49:38

all the amends that they did to make

49:40

them worthy enough. Now this happens in

49:43

families and Scientology families. See how

49:45

horrific that is? And I mean

49:47

I had to do this as

49:49

a kid many many times and

49:51

part of the amends was child

49:53

labor. Yeah. So it's sort of

49:55

like you have to do penance

49:57

for something you've done wrong.

49:59

in order to be accepted back

50:01

into the group, you're kind of

50:03

outside of it before you've done

50:05

the penance? Yes, so in, I'll

50:07

give you like, this is a

50:10

very specific example, and obviously there's

50:12

gonna be different forms and degrees

50:14

of this. This is gonna be

50:16

very very specific to one particular

50:18

time when I was placed into

50:20

these lower conditions. And this would

50:22

happen in California, and I was

50:24

separated. from the group so they

50:26

it was like a small group

50:28

of kids so maybe it was

50:30

like 10 or 12 of us

50:32

or whatever we were like the

50:34

naughty kids and we had written

50:36

up our overt some withholds and

50:38

they had read our overt some

50:40

withholds and then that's how so

50:42

they had a bigger group right

50:44

up the overt some withholds they

50:46

read the overt some withholds and

50:48

then they pulled children out of

50:50

that group to say, you guys

50:52

have done bad things. The bad

50:54

things that I had done was

50:56

that basically I fooled around with

50:58

a couple of boys at different

51:00

times. They were older than me.

51:02

The one was a couple years

51:04

older, one was a few years

51:06

older, and this is when I

51:08

was 13 years old. So yeah,

51:10

these boys were 15 and 16.

51:12

And it was very like, you

51:14

know, light touching over the clothes,

51:16

like was not incredibly major. But

51:18

I was punished for that. And

51:20

so... Yeah, I had to go

51:22

and dig trenches. So we were

51:24

separated. We had to live in

51:27

separate living quarters from everybody else.

51:29

Nobody was allowed to talk to

51:31

us. We specifically were required to

51:33

dig trenches because that was the

51:35

punishment. Like, you know, it was

51:37

to make us, to make you

51:39

feel how you would be feeling

51:41

when you're digging a hole and

51:43

you're separated from all your friends.

51:45

You're going to feel pretty. crappy

51:47

and you're going to want to

51:49

try and get back in the

51:51

good graces of the group. So

51:53

then we'd have to compile this

51:55

list of all these immense things

51:57

that we did and all this

51:59

work that we did. Meanwhile, we're

52:01

not receiving an education. I'm 13

52:03

years old, so I'm being denied

52:05

schooling and yeah, we have to

52:07

eat separately. sleep separately, we are

52:09

not allowed to talk to anybody

52:11

outside of that, like the naughty

52:13

group basically, and then at the

52:15

end of it we have to

52:17

ask for approval, so we literally

52:19

have to go around with a

52:21

sheet of paper with like yes-no

52:23

on it and stand there while

52:25

they each read all the amends

52:27

that we did, and then they're

52:29

going to decide if they're going

52:31

to sign on the yes column

52:33

or the no column, and you

52:35

have to get majority signatures on

52:37

the yes column. So if you

52:39

look at this in a family

52:42

environment, There's ways that that would

52:44

be enforced, like this is a

52:46

very specific example, as I said,

52:48

but like, for example, that child

52:50

would be having to submit their

52:52

amends to the parent and the

52:54

parent would then sign yes or

52:56

no. You see what I mean?

52:58

Like, it's a very bizarre, and

53:00

it's just the level of control

53:02

and the way that that makes

53:04

a child feel. Yeah, it's, I

53:06

mean, yeah, it's just... It's quite

53:08

shocking, like to hear about it.

53:10

And just to clarify, when you

53:12

say you weren't receiving education, is

53:14

that while you're doing that specific

53:16

kind of trench digging exercise, you're

53:18

getting some sort of education in

53:20

general? The level of education that

53:22

I experienced was basic literacy. In

53:24

other words, I was taught how

53:26

to read, write, and do some

53:28

basic math. And that's the curriculum

53:30

that Hubbard set for these children,

53:32

the particular children. of Scientology, of

53:34

where I was, where I talked

53:36

about, remember how I said we

53:38

were told we were a property

53:40

of the organization, and that our

53:42

sole purpose in life was to

53:44

work for the organization. These children

53:46

don't have a right to education.

53:48

They are only to be taught

53:50

basic literacy to enable them to

53:52

perform for the organization. So that

53:54

was the extent of my, you

53:57

know, Really not an education at

53:59

all. I yeah, I think that

54:01

was the thing that really really

54:03

were one of the many things

54:05

that when I came out of

54:07

that going clear documentary I was

54:09

just like so Scientology has heaps

54:11

of slaves and we're just not

54:13

talking about that is that what's

54:15

going on here? That's absolutely true.

54:17

Now here's where I will this

54:19

is where again it's important to

54:21

make a distinction because And let's

54:23

say I've learned a lot about

54:25

the sort of laws in the

54:27

US because that's where I spent

54:29

most of my childhood and most

54:31

of these experiences there, right? So

54:33

when we're talking about within a

54:35

religious context, you see adults can

54:37

choose this. Adults can choose to

54:39

sacrifice. Adults can choose to make

54:41

martyrs of themselves. right? But they

54:43

don't have the right to make

54:45

martyrs of their children. When it

54:47

comes to children, the law is

54:49

distinctly different. It distinctly defines that

54:51

there are protection for children and

54:53

that adults can they have a

54:55

lot of freedom to make choices

54:57

like adults can smoke cigarettes adults

54:59

can drink alcohol adults can gamble

55:01

their money away you know we'd

55:03

rather that they didn't but they

55:05

can surely do that adults can

55:07

make a lot of terrible terrible

55:09

choices now that's not to ignore

55:11

that there's obviously the course of

55:14

control aspects of the cults really

55:16

not what I'm talking about I'm

55:18

talking about in terms of the

55:20

law and what the the ability

55:22

of the law and authorities in

55:24

their ability to act on these

55:26

certain things and so when you

55:28

talk about slaves Well, if an

55:30

adult chooses it, see this is

55:32

why there's not been a lot

55:34

of successful prosecution in this area,

55:36

because Scientology can say, well, they

55:38

chose it, and when they decided

55:40

not to do it, they left.

55:42

So who's a slave here? When

55:44

it comes to children, that is

55:46

actually, literally, slavery, what has occurred

55:48

there. That's child slavery, and there

55:50

are very definite and clear laws

55:52

about that. That's human trafficking. That's

55:54

human trafficking. and it comes under

55:56

the specific, I guess, column of

55:58

forced child labor. So that's very

56:00

specific. Now you can have human

56:02

trafficking of adults in these situations,

56:04

absolutely. I'm just saying that sometimes

56:06

that can be difficult to prove.

56:08

When it comes to children, you

56:10

cannot make a martyr of a

56:12

child. That's child abuse, and we

56:14

have laws in place to protect

56:16

them. Yeah, I really appreciate that

56:18

clarification and you know, there's a

56:20

whole other discussion to be had

56:22

about indentured labor and you know,

56:24

modern slavery and all of these

56:26

different things, but I think that

56:29

that's a really clear point that

56:31

you've made. So yeah, I appreciate

56:33

that. So I guess what to

56:35

summarize that is to say when

56:37

it comes to adults, there are

56:39

some gray areas and I would

56:41

say that our laws need to

56:43

get better around that so that

56:45

we are protecting adults better, right?

56:47

But when it comes to children,

56:49

the law is so black and

56:51

white, now what Scientology does is

56:53

they go, everyone has religious rights.

56:55

Now this is not true because

56:57

the rights for children are prioritized

56:59

for their safety and well-being. And

57:01

so this kind of shroud of

57:03

like... Religious rights and everything is

57:05

kind of under that banner and

57:07

it's so important to when being

57:09

involved in these conversations to really

57:11

make that distinction really clear. For

57:13

adults, yes, you have so much

57:15

more freedom than children do because

57:17

their freedoms are limited by their

57:19

need for protection. Yeah, totally, that's,

57:21

yeah, exactly it. So what can

57:23

you tell me about the purification

57:25

run down? Okay, so the purification

57:27

rundown is it's essentially a cleansing

57:29

or a detoxing program and in

57:31

Australia, if you want to do

57:33

that program, you would need to

57:35

go and see your doctor and

57:37

the doctor would have to provide

57:39

a letter to approve it. And

57:41

I guess that that sort of

57:43

covers them for, you know, it's

57:46

not a licensed medical... I don't

57:48

know what the law is exactly

57:50

around that or the reason that

57:52

they have to do that, but

57:54

that seems to be that there's

57:56

a law in place that, but

57:58

what happens is that they will

58:00

refer you to their nominated doctor.

58:02

That's the doctor that always signs

58:04

that sheet of paper, right? And

58:06

they would discourage you from going

58:08

to your normal GP, for example.

58:10

Now, the purification run down, I

58:12

mean, children do this as early

58:14

as, I mean, I've seen it

58:16

as eight years old, potentially could

58:18

even be earlier, six years old,

58:20

but basically it's this sweat program

58:22

where you take Nyerson, and increasing

58:24

amounts. So this should be increased,

58:26

increased, increased over time. The niacin

58:28

is supposed to turn on this

58:30

reaction, which is like this red

58:32

flush and this heat kind of

58:34

surge in your body. And so

58:36

once you take this niacin, you

58:38

then do a bit of activity

58:40

to basically get through your blood

58:42

system and that sort of thing,

58:44

then you're going to start to

58:46

have this reaction. Then you go

58:48

into the sauna and you'll sit

58:50

there and you'll sweat and sweat

58:52

to get whatever this reaction is

58:54

out of your body. specific regime

58:56

to this, but essentially those are

58:58

kind of like the bigger points

59:01

of it. Now this can go

59:03

on for months because what you're

59:05

doing is you're trying to reach

59:07

this end goal of which you

59:09

don't know. You don't know what

59:11

the exact end goal is, but

59:13

you're supposed to basically come up

59:15

with this like, oh I just

59:17

realized blah blah blah blah. And

59:19

they're looking for a kind of

59:21

particular type of wording. And this

59:23

is called the end phenomena. So

59:25

when I was talking about the

59:27

auditing session. previously, this has the

59:29

same idea of like we're going

59:31

to go until you reach this

59:33

end phenomena and oftentimes you don't

59:35

know what it is that they're

59:37

looking for but it's some certain

59:39

thing that you're supposed to say

59:41

like I just realize you know

59:43

insert whatever and then they go

59:45

okay now you finished it so

59:47

really you don't get to finish

59:49

this of your own volition you

59:51

don't get to say when I'm

59:53

done or like stopping now I

59:55

mean I guess you could just

59:57

choose not show up. Right? But

59:59

again, in regards to children, the

1:00:01

parent is transporting them to and

1:00:03

from there, right? So how can

1:00:05

a child stop himself from being

1:00:07

put in that situation if the

1:00:09

parents are involved in that, in

1:00:11

making sure that that's happening and

1:00:13

that they go into that Sauna,

1:00:16

they have to go into the

1:00:18

Sauna every single day. They'll do

1:00:20

between two to five hours in

1:00:22

that Sauna, but they must go

1:00:24

in and they must do this

1:00:26

practice every single day until they've

1:00:28

reached this practice every single day.

1:00:30

and that's essentially what the puriff

1:00:32

is. Now it can be dangerous

1:00:34

because you know I also talked

1:00:36

about that concept of the way

1:00:38

out is the way through. So

1:00:40

if you are experiencing sickness, some

1:00:42

kind of reaction while you're in

1:00:44

there, Well, they believe that that

1:00:46

is being turned on, that reaction

1:00:48

is being created, and that you

1:00:50

just need to sweat that out.

1:00:52

So same concept of this auditing

1:00:54

session, you're having a reaction, the

1:00:56

reaction is not valid, the way

1:00:58

out is the way through, we

1:01:00

just need to persist, and we

1:01:02

need to keep doing the Scientology

1:01:04

practice, whether that's in the purification

1:01:06

run down in the sauna, or

1:01:08

whether that's in that auditing session.

1:01:10

you know, again, goes to the

1:01:12

violation of consent, the violation of

1:01:14

the UN Convention on the Rights

1:01:16

of the Child, and also can

1:01:18

be obviously physically damaging in this

1:01:20

scenario with the sauna. Yeah. Yeah,

1:01:22

it sounds incredibly dangerous for specific

1:01:24

medical conditions that might be going

1:01:26

on with someone. I mean, yeah,

1:01:28

hugely risky. Yeah. So I did

1:01:30

the purification run down twice as

1:01:33

an early adult, but as a

1:01:35

kid... I remember friends doing it

1:01:37

and they would get pulled out

1:01:39

for the day to go and

1:01:41

go in the sauna, do the

1:01:43

program. It was every day. That's

1:01:45

the same kind of thing. But

1:01:47

in my early 20s was the

1:01:49

second time I did it and

1:01:51

I did that in Australia in

1:01:53

Victoria at a place called Life

1:01:55

Solutions and I just remember like

1:01:57

curling up in a bowl on

1:01:59

the tiles of the bathroom floor

1:02:01

and I could not get up.

1:02:03

And I was just so sick

1:02:05

and I just remember the coolness

1:02:07

of the tiles and that was

1:02:09

the only thing... Like imagine laying

1:02:11

on the floor with the toilets

1:02:13

right there, but you don't want

1:02:15

to get up, you want to

1:02:17

stay next to those tiles because

1:02:19

they're the only thing that's like

1:02:21

keeping you cool. Yeah, and just

1:02:23

being told like, nope, you need

1:02:25

to get back in there, the

1:02:27

way out is the way through,

1:02:29

you need to keep going, this

1:02:31

is just a reaction that's being

1:02:33

turned on, and I'm like, I

1:02:35

don't think so. So, so. I

1:02:37

guess, you know, just put that

1:02:39

in the context of a child.

1:02:41

Yeah. Big question, why do you

1:02:43

think there isn't greater concern across

1:02:45

our society in Australia about children

1:02:48

being exposed to these kinds of

1:02:50

practices in belief systems like Scientology?

1:02:52

Yeah, I mean I would say

1:02:54

maybe one thing I realize is

1:02:56

that there's probably a lack of

1:02:58

awareness of what this scenario of

1:03:00

this auditing session looks like and

1:03:02

actually what these practices are and

1:03:04

you know big reason for that

1:03:06

is that Hubbard used this like

1:03:08

hiding language where he You know

1:03:10

everything is kind of like opposite

1:03:12

like we're going to call it

1:03:14

Dynetics, the modern science of mental

1:03:16

health, right? Well, it's not science

1:03:18

at all. There's so much that

1:03:20

is hidden within this language and

1:03:22

even this weird terminology of like

1:03:24

auditor and an auditing session. Well,

1:03:26

it's so hard for a person

1:03:28

to visualize what actually even is

1:03:30

that, you know? And it's not

1:03:32

until you start reading. these texts,

1:03:34

like pick up the book Dynetics

1:03:36

and read it and just be

1:03:38

like, oh my, like what is

1:03:40

this? This is craziness. Why is

1:03:42

this happening? Like why are people

1:03:44

doing this? Especially to children. And

1:03:46

so I think it's that lack

1:03:48

of awareness. Now there's been a

1:03:50

ton of work by journalists and

1:03:52

also notably like Senator Xenophon between

1:03:54

like 2010, 2012. There was a

1:03:56

huge movement in Australia to raise

1:03:58

awareness across a broad range of

1:04:00

issues in Scientology. And I would

1:04:03

say one of the things that

1:04:05

really affects it too is just

1:04:07

the suppression of information by Scientology

1:04:09

and also this idea again under

1:04:11

sweeping everything under the shroud of

1:04:13

like our religious rights and we're

1:04:15

being persecuted and this is exactly

1:04:17

this is like literally these are

1:04:19

the things that they say like

1:04:21

this is like the Nazis and

1:04:23

the Jews and all this and

1:04:25

it's really difficult I think that

1:04:27

there hasn't been the the amount

1:04:29

of advocacy I think that's been

1:04:31

needed or like really understanding this

1:04:33

in terms of laws. Okay, so

1:04:35

like another thing as well, I

1:04:37

would say, you know, when we

1:04:39

frame things, we frame everything as

1:04:41

a cult, right? But I think

1:04:43

there needs to be a distinction

1:04:45

between cult and a criminal organization.

1:04:47

Is this group violating laws and

1:04:49

actually committing crimes? This banner of

1:04:51

cult, it, you know, we know

1:04:53

that that means that that's a

1:04:55

harmful group, but I guess what

1:04:57

I'm kind of wanting to impress.

1:04:59

upon people here is like if

1:05:01

there are laws being violated like

1:05:03

let's report let's report report report

1:05:05

is the idea and whether you

1:05:07

report to a governing body like

1:05:09

the Commission for Children and young

1:05:11

people for example in Victoria and

1:05:13

there are the same type of

1:05:15

bodies across Australia in each state

1:05:17

and territory yeah figure out where

1:05:20

you can report these things but

1:05:22

it's also like intimidation threats, harassment,

1:05:24

fears of the child survivor, fears

1:05:26

of the media as well that

1:05:28

they will be litigated against by

1:05:30

Scientology. There's also, yeah, and suppression

1:05:32

of information, Brian Seymour, who has

1:05:34

done a ton of work on

1:05:36

Scientology, he's also a child survivor

1:05:38

himself. I know that he had

1:05:40

experience of like in-care and through

1:05:42

the adoption system and that sort

1:05:44

of thing and he kind of

1:05:46

ran a gambit of abuses as

1:05:48

a child and had to survive

1:05:50

those experiences. I think that can

1:05:52

sometimes provide a greater understanding of

1:05:54

how these things could be harmful

1:05:56

to children, like when you have

1:05:58

that child experience yourself or something.

1:06:00

that you can relate to like

1:06:02

that. And so, and Brian Seymour

1:06:04

has also spoken out about himself

1:06:06

being personally fair-gamed and targeted by

1:06:08

Scientology. So yeah, I think there's

1:06:10

a lot of, there's a lot

1:06:12

of reasons why, and why I

1:06:14

kind of bring the conversation back

1:06:16

to the law and back to

1:06:18

crimes and criminality. It's like... because

1:06:20

the law provides for these things

1:06:22

to be pursued and the law

1:06:24

provides a black and white framework

1:06:26

to how we can get these

1:06:28

interventions that are really necessary and

1:06:30

those are the sort of things

1:06:32

that I'm kind of only really

1:06:35

recently learning and trying to wrap

1:06:37

my head around and seeking ways

1:06:39

that these things can be redressed

1:06:41

and I really do feel like

1:06:43

the child safety standards are really

1:06:45

the structure and the way to

1:06:47

do that across Australia. Thank you

1:06:49

so much for the work that

1:06:51

you're doing in this space and

1:06:53

for speaking with me about it.

1:06:55

Is there anything that listeners can

1:06:57

do to support your work in

1:06:59

raising awareness about these issues? Yeah,

1:07:01

I would maybe ask them to

1:07:03

consider that potentially it's not my

1:07:05

work, but their work. Like if

1:07:07

it's something that is of interest

1:07:09

to them based on their own

1:07:11

experiences or background, I'm sure you

1:07:13

have a lot of child cult

1:07:15

survivors who listen to your podcast

1:07:17

and there may be things that

1:07:19

they have experienced in the organizations

1:07:21

that they experienced harms or cover-up

1:07:23

of harms or ways that they've

1:07:25

we're not protected or not believed

1:07:27

and where they can see that

1:07:29

those practices still continue on today,

1:07:31

I would definitely ask that they

1:07:33

have a look at this framework

1:07:35

and see what they can report

1:07:37

about the organization that they experience

1:07:39

those harms in. I feel like

1:07:41

what's great about this is that

1:07:43

oftentimes we get we're like kind

1:07:45

of get stuck because we're like,

1:07:47

oh well you need to have

1:07:50

a recent victim and they have

1:07:52

to report their harm. And this

1:07:54

framework actually, with the reportable conduct

1:07:56

scheme, actually doesn't require that. That's

1:07:58

the beauty of it. So you

1:08:00

can speak to like, hey, well,

1:08:02

actually, this practice is still in

1:08:04

place. And my concern is that

1:08:06

I was harmed in that way.

1:08:08

And so my concern is that

1:08:10

children are still being harmed in

1:08:12

that particular way. That particular way

1:08:14

is the way that this organization

1:08:16

does it. And there really is

1:08:18

a requirement for... investigation and reaching

1:08:20

that closed door system that allows

1:08:22

abuse to continue on and on

1:08:24

and on. Like that's what I

1:08:26

would say. And I would also

1:08:28

speak to, for example, it's a

1:08:30

really great book by Judith Herman,

1:08:32

who wrote Truth and Repair, and

1:08:34

she talks about early on in

1:08:36

the book, she talks about a

1:08:38

survivor omission, and that's really what

1:08:40

I feel like I have. and

1:08:42

I'm trying to figure out really

1:08:44

it's like how do I make

1:08:46

peace in the world how do

1:08:48

how do I achieve inner peace

1:08:50

or like personal peace and the

1:08:52

way that I do that is

1:08:54

I tried to kind of figure

1:08:56

out like okay what can I

1:08:58

do about this to do something

1:09:00

effective so that this doesn't just

1:09:02

continue on like a juggernaut robbing

1:09:04

children of their childhood so I

1:09:07

just would ask if there's anything

1:09:09

that anyone particularly wants to pursue

1:09:11

or yeah that we report and

1:09:13

and I think that's I guess

1:09:15

the main thing yeah. And I'll

1:09:17

have those links in the show

1:09:19

notes that people can refer to

1:09:21

in order to perhaps do that

1:09:23

if that's something that they want

1:09:25

to do and I just I

1:09:27

want to thank you so much

1:09:29

for taking the time to explain

1:09:31

all of these things and to

1:09:33

share your experiences and the the

1:09:35

advocacy that you're doing in this

1:09:37

space it's I think it's incredible

1:09:39

so thank you Miriam. Thank you

1:09:41

so much I really appreciate it.

1:10:11

A huge thanks to Miriam Francis for

1:10:13

giving me her time and sharing

1:10:15

her her and knowledge for this episode. for

1:10:17

this Be sure to check the show

1:10:19

notes for links to the resources

1:10:21

we mentioned today. we Let's talk about talk

1:10:23

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1:10:51

This This episode of Let's Talk Sects

1:10:53

was was produced by me, Steele, and the

1:10:55

and the music was by Joe Gould.

1:10:57

Grab Grab yourself a copy of

1:10:59

his soundtrack album Nobody joins the Cult, on Van Camp,

1:11:01

or it on Spotify. Spotify.