0:00

What does Marilyn Monroe,

0:03

Barbara Streisand, share?

0:05

And also younger stars like

0:07

Miley Cyrus and Zendaya, what

0:09

do all of them have

0:12

in common? Well, as you

0:14

probably guessed by the episode

0:16

title, they've all worn gowns

0:19

designed by one of the

0:21

all-time great designers Bob Mackey.

0:24

Over the course of his 60 plus

0:26

year career, Bob Mackey has helped

0:28

to craft the visual identity of

0:30

some of the greatest entertainers who

0:32

ever lived. I'm thinking about

0:34

Whitney Houston, Elton John, I

0:36

already mentioned share. There's almost too

0:38

much to list here to be

0:41

completely honest, but the ones you'll

0:43

hear is focused the most on

0:45

in our interview today with Bob

0:47

is to begin with Carol Burnett

0:49

and the famous curtain dress. That's

0:51

the one from the Carol Burnett

0:53

show Spoof of Gone With The

0:55

Wind with the curtain rod that

0:57

extends across the shoulders. That dress

0:59

now lives at the Smithsonian. And

1:01

then secondly, perhaps the most fruitful

1:03

and exciting collaboration of his life

1:05

has been with Cher. Bob started designing

1:08

for her when she was just 19

1:10

and he really wasn't that much older.

1:12

Bob designed all for gowns for

1:14

the song and share show, for

1:17

her tours, music videos, and of

1:19

course, that show-stopping look from the

1:21

1986 Oscars, where Sher came out

1:23

on stage in that huge, feathered

1:26

Mohawk headdress. As you can see,

1:28

I did receive my Academy booklet

1:30

on how to dress like a

1:32

serious actress. All

1:35

these many, many, what

1:37

have become really historic

1:39

designs are documented really

1:41

beautifully in the new

1:43

documentary called Bob Mackey

1:46

Naked Illusion and that

1:48

is now streaming on

1:50

Amazon Prime video. So

1:52

without further ado, I'm

1:54

Jeffrey Masters and this

1:56

is LGBT Q&A with

1:58

Bob Mackey. So

2:02

you've dressed some of the most iconic

2:05

and famous entertainers in history. I have,

2:07

but it just kind of happened. I

2:09

don't know. I mean, I didn't work

2:11

for, you know, years to get to

2:14

that point. Well, yeah, I think that's

2:16

my question. Like, going back, like, what

2:18

would you set your goal was when

2:21

you were starting out? But starting out

2:23

for me was so weird. I was

2:25

this strange child who didn't like to

2:27

play sports and I didn't like to

2:30

do anything except draw pictures. I liked

2:32

it, especially if they're technically color and

2:34

they danced and sang and it was

2:37

Carmen Miranda with fruit all over her,

2:39

you know, head and everything. You know,

2:41

it's just one of those things and

2:44

people would give me catcher's mitts and

2:46

things for Christmas. I'm not going to

2:48

do with this. And so your goal

2:50

was to be a costume designer. Well,

2:53

not, it wasn't really, it was to

2:55

be involved in... I look, there were

2:57

so many movies back in the early

3:00

40s when I was a child because

3:02

I was born at 39. And I

3:04

always think that, you know, I'm part

3:06

of that, that Wizard of Oz, I'm

3:09

bad and gone with the wind. All

3:11

the good things happened in 1939, you

3:13

know, but including your birth, but you

3:16

know, after a while you think, yeah,

3:18

you know. forget it. That's not anything

3:20

I can lean on. But once I

3:22

was in art school and doing it

3:25

and everything, and fortunately I was the

3:27

best one in the class, so it

3:29

just worked. I got, you know, if

3:32

we had a, we had a Capizio

3:34

shoe award, which is, I always, that

3:36

was such a funny thing to do,

3:39

and I won that one, and then

3:41

I won that, you know, and I

3:43

was only there with a scholarship for

3:45

two years, and I thought, you know

3:48

what, I've won all the awards, I

3:50

have to go work now. I have

3:52

to go work now. And I went...

3:55

So you left school? I went out

3:57

to... I quit school. They were mad

3:59

at me. And then I became their

4:01

hero a couple years later when I

4:04

was getting, you know... printed in the

4:06

paper or whatever. But it was just

4:08

kind of, it was a funny time

4:11

in my life because I didn't expect

4:13

anything. I kept wondering, is anyone gonna

4:15

ever hire me? Are they gonna like

4:17

me? Are they gonna like what I

4:20

do? And I was just lucky. I

4:22

got the right people. Yeah. And so

4:24

this was like. This was the early

4:27

1960s when you're starting out, right? Very

4:29

early, like 61. And so in 1960,

4:31

you married Lulu Porter, your ex-wife? 59,

4:34

really, yeah, yeah. Can I ask, how

4:36

aware were you, like, of your sexuality?

4:38

How are you thinking about it? Well,

4:40

I loved and adored her and we

4:43

were best best friends. And I was

4:45

trying very hard to be what everybody

4:47

wanted you to be. You know, I'd

4:50

like to expect you to be and

4:52

wanted to be. And when I was

4:54

in high school, there were lots of

4:56

boys that were gay, let me tell

4:59

you, but nobody ever talked about it

5:01

or was ever, nowadays, it's a whole

5:03

other world. So it was obvious when

5:06

you were in high school, but it's

5:08

just not spoken. Not spoken at all,

5:10

and some of my best friends, I

5:12

thought later on about it, I don't

5:15

know, you know, if it had been

5:17

a different time, you know, paying the

5:19

rent together or something, but it wasn't

5:22

working that way. And I didn't, you

5:24

know, I, we had a child and

5:26

I loved him and we had a

5:29

lovely little life, but I, there's always

5:31

that little thing that's just itching at

5:33

you because it's not who you really

5:35

are completely. And so when did you

5:38

start to like put a name to

5:40

that? Well, I would hear about it

5:42

and I hear all these, these boys,

5:45

school, you know, that are art school

5:47

and they're, you know, you know. Just

5:49

different different I would watch them as

5:51

I'm on it or all that one's

5:54

handsome. Look at that one. You know,

5:56

it's just It's funny. You're still the

5:58

same person, but it's it's just different.

6:01

You know, but you have to be

6:03

honest with you yourself. You can't go

6:05

around pretending. And then while I was

6:08

working in the studios, I see these

6:10

directors, producers, all had boyfriends, but they

6:12

had wives and children at home. I

6:14

thought, I'd rather be honest and

6:16

not try to be something else.

6:19

So it was not like a

6:21

secret for you. No, but it

6:23

was careful. You know, you

6:25

don't need to go around. Look at

6:27

me, look at me, look what I

6:29

can do, blah, blah, blah, blah, you

6:32

know, and all that. Careful because during

6:34

this time, I believe you could probably

6:36

have still been fired for being gay,

6:38

like publicly gay. Well, you probably could,

6:40

but you see, in television and

6:42

films and all of that, the

6:44

choreographers, the conductors, the set designers,

6:47

the costume designers, that means sometimes

6:49

customs and there's ladies, but they

6:51

might be gay too, you know.

6:53

You know, it's just... It was

6:55

one of those things and that

6:57

never occurred to people in those,

6:59

working on those shows in those

7:01

projects. It wasn't that they cared

7:03

if you were or you weren't, just,

7:06

you know, they liked the work. As

7:08

you started to, you know, build a

7:10

name for yourself, did you feel like

7:12

you couldn't, like, discuss being gay when

7:14

you were being interviewed? No, I never,

7:17

I never did. I never really discussed

7:19

it, but I didn't pretend

7:21

not to be. Because basically in that

7:23

certain areas. Probably almost everybody was yeah,

7:25

it's just interesting this you know this

7:27

bubble kind of where like people were

7:30

gay and it wasn't hidden But it

7:32

also wasn't talked about how much awareness

7:34

you have in like you know the

7:36

60s and 70s of like these early

7:39

gay moments of like Stonewall or or

7:41

in LA like the black cat protest

7:43

I don't know what the black cat protest

7:45

was. Oh, it was, um, 1967. Well,

7:47

I was, sorry, I was, I was

7:50

deep, I was deep into work by

7:52

that time, working in the business, so

7:54

that wouldn't have affected me one way

7:56

or another. I would just be interested

7:58

to read about it, but... So

8:00

that had no, they didn't come

8:02

across a radar at all. That's fascinating.

8:04

No, no, it didn't, but I was

8:07

working, you know, by the time I

8:09

was 22, I was going to work

8:11

every day working on shows and stuff.

8:14

You know, looking at your work

8:16

more broadly, like, you know, when I've

8:18

seen people wear your dresses, like, I'm

8:20

thinking like, Miley Cyrus. Yes. Miley wore

8:23

your dress when she's like flowers. Right,

8:25

right, right. Oh, right. Oh, right. I

8:31

never got so much press over address

8:33

from a war show. Oh really? Like

8:35

that one. It was the next day

8:37

I was never off the phone. And

8:40

everybody, everywhere I'd go, people would know

8:42

about it. They watched that show. Or

8:44

she really impressed them somehow. For me

8:47

watching that, I thought, you know, like...

8:49

a fantastic performance, but I thought, like,

8:51

is that a Bob Mackey when she

8:54

was wearing it? Thank you. That's why

8:56

I was from a fashion show that

8:58

I had done. I did a whole

9:01

fashion show based on Broadway shows. Yeah,

9:03

but I guess what I'm wondering is

9:05

like, what was it that I'm seeing

9:08

that makes me think that's a Bob

9:10

Mackey? I don't know. Maybe it's because

9:12

it was flashy, it moved. I mean,

9:15

I never did. as a costume present,

9:17

I never did just a nice little

9:19

dress, you know, we don't have to

9:22

dress housewives and usually in the movies

9:24

and whatever. Or if you do, it's

9:26

Doris Day or it's whatever, you know,

9:29

it's just, it's just the way it

9:31

is. And so it's vibrant, it can

9:33

move, it's the color. Well, and you

9:36

also have to spend time looking at

9:38

the performer and how they move, how

9:40

they sing, how they tell a joke,

9:42

or tell a story, or give a

9:45

line. A lot of people just think,

9:47

well, I'll just make this beautiful dress.

9:49

It doesn't matter if it looks good

9:52

on her. Yeah. I mean, your famous

9:54

quote is that you designed for the

9:56

woman who is not afraid to be

9:59

noticed. Oh, well, that's somebody, somebody wrote

10:01

that. Okay, so it's not your exact

10:03

quote. Well, no, not, well, no, it

10:06

is kind of in a way because

10:08

it really is, it is kind of

10:10

a quote because it is true. A

10:13

lot of those, if you're a performer

10:15

and when you walk on stage, you

10:17

want that audience to take a deep

10:20

breath and go, oh, you know, you

10:22

get that, you can hear it. I

10:24

think too, like when it's something like

10:27

designed to be noticed, you know, it's

10:29

a command your attention. I actually think

10:31

of that as like, like gimmicky or

10:34

flashy, something overly trendy. But yours are

10:36

timeless. Well, I tried. I don't, I

10:38

never did anything that was truly what

10:41

I thought trendy. Yeah. I mean, you

10:43

had to sometimes because it was such

10:45

a strong movement at that moment, like.

10:47

The year hot pants came on the

10:50

scene. You regret that? Okay. But then

10:52

I had people, you know, I had

10:54

amazing people, like Julia Prowse, who's gone

10:57

now, but had the most beautiful body,

10:59

danced like crazy, had long, long legs.

11:01

and beautiful. And she just looked, you

11:04

wouldn't put anything else on her that

11:06

year, that particular year. Oh, so I

11:08

guess what I'm wondering is like, what

11:11

is that like timeless quality? Like, what

11:13

do you attribute that to? Is that

11:15

because you're designing for the specific body?

11:18

Yeah, I think so. Body and the

11:20

talent. I mean, you can't put that

11:22

on anybody. And they walk out. You

11:25

know, they think, what are they dressed

11:27

up for? Or they're a clown. Yeah.

11:29

And I was working for a designer

11:32

who had somewhat of a reputation. He

11:34

was the designer on the Judy Garland,

11:36

and I was the assistant designer. So

11:39

I was dressing Eliza Manelli and the

11:41

guest stars and the dancing kids and

11:43

whatever. And we had Barbara singing with

11:45

Judy with F.L. Merman. I mean, and

11:48

I was just like in hard heaven,

11:50

I thought, how often are you going

11:52

to see that in your life? Standing

11:55

there in the studio behind the audience

11:57

area. And I thought, this is fabulous.

11:59

I had no trouble, you know, it

12:02

was just crazy. Okay, so like who

12:04

was the biggest bitch, tell me, just

12:06

tell me their initials. Yeah, tell me

12:09

your initials, how do you pronounce?

12:11

There are very few, I really

12:13

had no trouble, they understood,

12:15

I would, you know, I would, you know,

12:17

I would, I, I would know what they had

12:19

done in their life and who, what

12:22

numbers they had done, what songs they

12:24

had sung, what musical they had been

12:26

in, or whatever it made them think

12:28

that I do it for them. Because

12:31

having you on their side only helps

12:33

them. I think it did in the

12:35

long run, but every now and then

12:38

you would get somebody who just, I

12:40

don't know, this is right, I don't,

12:42

well, you know, she's Harry, do you

12:44

like this outfit, you know, that

12:46

may be her manager or

12:48

her agent or whoever. There

12:50

you go, oh God, how

12:52

much, I mean, but that

12:54

hardly ever happened. I mean,

12:56

there's a few people that

12:58

question everything and, and, and,

13:00

and, and, They just don't

13:02

trust themselves and they don't

13:04

trust anybody. And they're usually

13:06

quite brilliant in their talents.

13:08

You know, one of my favorite

13:11

ones. I remember her last fitting

13:13

I was ever in. She said

13:15

something. And she says, that's supposed

13:17

to be funny. Do you think

13:20

that's funny? I don't know what's

13:22

funny anymore to me. And I

13:24

went, honey, just do it. You

13:26

are so popular and people listen

13:29

to everything you say and sing.

13:31

And it's amazing. Who was that?

13:33

It was Miss B.S. No, but

13:35

she was, she was, she was

13:37

amazing. She was this amazing talent

13:40

that just came out of Brooklyn

13:42

and came out of New York

13:44

and everybody knew who she was

13:46

here, but nobody knew anywhere else.

13:48

And until she started doing the

13:51

talk shows late at night. And

13:53

then all of a sudden you

13:55

go, who the hell is she?

13:57

Listen to her sing. She's amazing.

14:00

And I did things with her, but

14:02

not everything. And she would move around

14:04

to different people. She's always trying somebody

14:06

else. And you know, she's an interesting

14:09

woman, and certainly talented, amazingly talented. And

14:11

there were several like that. I would

14:13

see on late night television, and I'd

14:15

think, who is that? I mean, first

14:18

time I saw Beth Midler, I went,

14:20

where'd she come from? She just looked

14:22

like a movie star and then look

14:24

at her, look at her, listen to

14:27

her. It was just one of those.

14:29

It's always amazing when these people creep

14:31

up out of nowhere. Or what you

14:33

think is nowhere. And so did you

14:36

seek out but Miller? Because you eventually

14:38

worked with her. No, I really didn't.

14:40

I kind of, you know, they would

14:42

hear from me. They were, they would

14:45

not from me. I didn't go, you

14:47

know, soliciting my talents to the crowd.

14:49

But other people would mention it or

14:51

they'd see, you know, when Cher first

14:54

came on the air for a couple

14:56

of weeks, we were getting these calls

14:58

from all these funny girls that wanted

15:00

the same dress and the same this.

15:03

And I said, no, no, no, that's

15:05

for Cher. Let me meet you and

15:07

we'll look at what's good for you.

15:09

You know, I never, I never. did

15:12

anything that I didn't think would be

15:14

perfect for them or for the what

15:16

they were doing in it or the

15:18

material and how good it was or

15:21

not good. Wow and you mentioned share

15:23

like that's one of the things that

15:25

like really like made a help you

15:28

make a name for yourself right we

15:30

were working with her? It did because

15:32

people were you know she's you couldn't

15:34

do what what I did for share

15:37

or on her just on everybody couldn't

15:39

pull it off right but that girl

15:41

was like a goddess visually And she

15:43

didn't know any about that. She was

15:46

a young girl. She was like 19

15:48

when I first met her. And adorable

15:50

and young, but she does all this

15:52

sort of goth looks with sunny and

15:55

they were all like in cave people

15:57

and whatever. And no, I just looked

15:59

at her. I'm going to, you know,

16:01

until I met her. And I went,

16:04

oh, this is a whole other world

16:06

here. And so when did your name

16:08

become a noun? Like, I want a

16:10

Bob Mackey. Probably once. Well I was

16:13

doing Carol a Carol show and that

16:15

was like a gift from God to

16:17

do that because I love doing comedy

16:19

and creating a character for Carol for

16:22

other guest stars and stuff and people

16:24

would ask her who does your gowns

16:26

she'd come out in a real dress

16:28

in the beginning a real gown not

16:31

a character costume. I mean, some people

16:33

might think it was a characteristic, but

16:35

they weren't. She, and talked to the

16:37

audience and they would ask her who

16:40

does her dresses. And then there were

16:42

times, several times, that she would like

16:44

pull me out, come out, Bob. But

16:47

people got to know me, people still

16:49

say, oh, I used to see you

16:51

come out on the Carol Burnett show.

16:53

You know, how many years ago that

16:56

was, I, 50, 60 years ago. I

16:58

mean, it was just crazy, but they're

17:00

just crazy, but they're talking about the

17:02

dress. Which one, the curtain rod dress?

17:05

Of course. Well, that's when everybody still

17:07

to this day mentions, they'll say, do

17:09

you know the costume that I thought

17:11

was really funny? And I'll say, no,

17:14

tell me. And that will be what

17:16

they say. Are you surprised that like

17:18

almost 50 years later, we're still talking

17:20

about it? Well, I don't know. It's

17:23

just one of those. Everybody in the

17:25

world and our world had seen Gone

17:27

With The Wind and that gag was

17:29

already funny just when she walked out

17:32

in the dress was the most beautifully

17:34

made couture in the 1860s costume from

17:36

the drape, the dusty old drapes. And

17:38

they just thought I would do the

17:41

same thing that writers just wrote it.

17:43

They didn't know what else to do.

17:45

And it wasn't until... practically the night

17:47

before we taped. I said, you know,

17:50

Carol, I'm having trouble with this because

17:52

the old trick is not funny anymore.

17:54

We know it too well. And I

17:56

don't know, I can't, I'm not sure

17:59

what's. be funny here, because if you

18:01

get too crazy and too funny, it's

18:03

not funny. So, you know, I became

18:06

this big, you know, expert on getting

18:08

a laugh visually, and I didn't start

18:10

out that way, but it just made

18:12

sense to me. That's what we were

18:15

there for. Yeah. So she called, she

18:17

came over and looked at it at

18:19

our fitting area where we fit all

18:21

the costumes and she started getting hysterical

18:24

and thought it was really funny and

18:26

she said this is going to go

18:28

on forever. And then she called Harvey,

18:30

she said you've got to see this

18:33

because you're going to break up in

18:35

the middle of the scene if you

18:37

don't. And it was, a lot of

18:39

people wouldn't think it was so funny

18:42

to see it on a dress form

18:44

somewhere. But the minute she walked down

18:46

the staircase holding her head up high

18:48

like she looked like, you know, Marlena

18:51

Dietrich or something, it was just, the

18:53

audience started giggling and then they got

18:55

louder and louder and louder and then

18:57

they did their wines together. The gown

19:00

is gorgeous. Thank you. I sought in

19:02

the window and I just couldn't resist

19:04

it. And

19:07

Carol is rolling her eyes around. I

19:10

mean, you've seen, did you see the,

19:12

of course, yeah, you saw it. You

19:14

can't help but laugh, yeah. But the

19:16

audience, again, these are people, these are

19:19

men, you know, people that come to

19:21

television taping, in those days, most of

19:23

them are semi-middle age or whatever. They

19:26

just love the show and they love

19:28

coming to see it at CBS. But

19:30

it was amazing. You mentioned working as

19:32

the assistant costume designer on Judy Garland

19:35

show. Is that where you met your

19:37

partner? Yeah, no, we met earlier. I

19:39

met him at a guild meeting for

19:42

costume designers, you know, and he said

19:44

he was coming on obviously, you know,

19:46

he. It was good and he said,

19:48

you know, my apartment sister around the

19:51

corner was right on Sunset Boulevard and

19:53

we were in this place. And I

19:55

said, no, no, I got to go

19:58

and finish the meeting and I got

20:00

a call at Paramount. This was the

20:02

night before Thanksgiving and he said, you

20:04

want to go out to dinner? And

20:07

I said, yeah, I've got nothing to

20:09

do tonight. This would be fun. And

20:11

so we went to a place right

20:14

on, right on Los Angeles and walked

20:16

into this Italian restaurant that was like

20:18

a family-owned restaurant right on the street.

20:20

And there was. you know, Fred Astaire

20:23

was sitting there with Erma's pan and

20:25

all these different people from the industry,

20:27

they all went there to eat dinner.

20:30

And we sat and talked and all

20:32

of a sudden I said, this is

20:34

the first time I've been to dinner

20:36

with anyone where I really discussed what

20:39

we all do for a living and

20:41

what we like, what we don't like,

20:43

what we approve of, what we don't.

20:46

And we started going out to dinner

20:48

almost every night just to have a...

20:50

That kind of relationship. Yeah. And was

20:52

it flirty right away? Or did that

20:55

come later? A little bit, but not

20:57

ridiculous. Just enjoyed the companionship with somebody

20:59

that is the same interests as you

21:02

have at that point in time. He

21:04

was 10 years older than me. Yeah.

21:06

So when did it change to a

21:08

relationship? Well, I don't know. It just

21:11

did. You know, how does anything change?

21:13

But then... We would go to things

21:15

together, you know, go to the movies

21:18

or something we wanted to see. You

21:20

know, it was somebody to go with.

21:22

I didn't have, you know, and I

21:24

was, I think I'd already started, we

21:27

started, you know, like having kind of

21:29

a divorce talk and everything, because my

21:31

wife was a performer and she was

21:34

coming to New York to audition for

21:36

things and back and forth and whatever.

21:38

It was fine. I mean, we still

21:40

are very close and we have grandchildren

21:43

and all of that. And so you're

21:45

building this relationship with Bray and then

21:47

you also start working together. Well, we

21:50

hadn't really worked that much. I knew

21:52

what he did and I'd go to

21:54

tapings that he was, I mean, he

21:56

had, it shows like the Roy and

21:59

Dale variety show with Roy Rogers and

22:01

Dale Evans, you know, and I was.

22:03

say, how'd you get that show? You

22:06

know, you really want that? There's such

22:08

nice people. You know, and he's so

22:10

nice and she's lovely. And I said,

22:12

oh, fine. And then she was doing

22:15

the Dinosaur Show also. With Ray, he

22:17

was extremely successful. He was a hot

22:19

young designer at NBC at that point.

22:22

But he was, I just felt, he

22:24

always had me do the sketches. And

22:26

I said, eh. You don't want to

22:28

do this. This looks like like 10

22:31

years ago. This is like the 1950s.

22:33

Let's let's let's do something different on

22:35

Judy. He was doing these sort of

22:37

awnge new dresses on Judy Garland at

22:39

42 years old. Would he give you

22:41

credit when you gave those suggestions?

22:44

Well he liked it and he liked working

22:46

with me and he and I would draw

22:48

it. Oh yeah that looks good. And then

22:50

we would he would listen to me. Usually

22:52

when you hire somebody at that point in

22:54

their in their in their career or whatever.

22:57

You know, they don't really get it, but

22:59

I got it pretty well because I

23:01

trained myself from the time I was

23:03

a little kid watching watching stuff. I

23:05

mean, I was wondering, you know, he,

23:07

as you said, was this hot shot

23:09

designer, but he wasn't, wasn't the hot

23:11

shot, no, it was a TV designer

23:13

that did stuff that he got the

23:15

jobs and people liked him because he

23:17

was foreign and kind of, but your

23:19

career in many ways, eclipse tests, like

23:21

was he supportive of that? It did,

23:23

but, but, but, but he, but he,

23:25

but he, but he, We did a

23:27

lot of things together and he had

23:29

good ideas, but sometimes I would just

23:32

say, no, that looks like another last

23:34

year. Let's do something. Or look at

23:36

Judy when she was in The Star

23:38

is Born and she just had that

23:40

pink shirt on over her brown tights.

23:43

And I said, that's what works on

23:45

her because it's kind of boy clothes,

23:47

girl clothes, but it somehow works for

23:49

her with her little short haircut and

23:52

everything. And I said, you know, we

23:54

have to look, you have to look

23:56

at the person that's wearing it. And

23:58

he didn't, he didn't. really understand that

24:00

exactly, but yet he had good jobs.

24:03

He got good good jobs and it

24:05

was fine, you know. I think you

24:07

were together for almost 50 years, was

24:10

it? One month, under 50. One month.

24:12

And then he died, but he wasn't

24:14

that well. He smoked and he drink

24:16

a little and whatever, whatever, yeah. He

24:19

just didn't take care of himself. Well

24:21

enough. After nearly 50 years, like, what

24:23

has it been like to, like, adjust

24:26

to life? Well, you just do, you

24:28

know. And there were times when he

24:30

would do stuff and I would just

24:32

tell him, I said, that looks like

24:35

shit. Don't do that. And then you'd

24:37

show me something, I said, oh, that

24:39

looks good. Now we're cooking. You know,

24:41

I was the terrible, snotty young boy.

24:44

What did you learn from him for

24:46

not as a design about like as

24:48

a career like doing this? I don't

24:51

know. I just went forward and with

24:53

him and and he never he never

24:55

fought me on it at all. I

24:57

think probably in the beginning he was

25:00

probably a little nervous, you know, but

25:02

but yet the I all of a

25:04

sudden had fans like on the Judy

25:07

Garland show. I met people on that

25:09

show that I would work with. because

25:11

I was the youngest one on the

25:13

set. I would work with, for the

25:16

next 20 years, in different shows and

25:18

different projects and things. Just, they just

25:20

happened to be there. So it's funny

25:22

how you become known. Yeah. I mean,

25:25

it was very funny watching our documentary

25:27

because almost every star talks about how

25:29

young you looked at the time. Well,

25:32

and still, frankly. I know, it's silly.

25:34

I was watching it. I was watching

25:36

it the other night. We were in

25:38

Toronto. And I said, God, take a

25:41

look at me now. I don't look

25:43

like I'm 12. Everyone... But I did.

25:45

I did look that way. I was,

25:48

you know, and the young, some of

25:50

the young actresses or the young performers

25:52

would get this funny little crush on

25:54

me. How funny. But I think of

25:57

like we don't take like young people

25:59

seriously. Was it an asset for you

26:01

in your career? Oh, I think it

26:03

helped. You know, you hear Carol talk

26:06

about it. I came in and I

26:08

was cute and sweet and polite and

26:10

whatever, whatever. And they hired me the

26:13

next day. I mean, it was, who

26:15

gets hired? Does an interview and gets

26:17

hired the very next day? You said

26:19

that everyone mentions the curtain dress as

26:22

their favorite. But I wonder, you know,

26:24

what is... Is there a most memorable

26:26

dress for you? Well, no, I don't,

26:29

it isn't like I do one dress

26:31

a year. I was doing, you know,

26:33

I was doing Carol Burnett and then

26:35

after she'd been on for quite a

26:38

while, Sunny and Cher came right next

26:40

door and the next, you had to

26:42

go through the men's room to get

26:44

through to their stage and everything was

26:47

closed off. And so I was at

26:49

CBS constantly. I was doing the Missy

26:51

Gainer specials, which are these huge specials

26:54

with guest stars. And she was funny

26:56

and wonderful. My first client, really. So

26:58

it's like after thousands and thousands of

27:00

dresses, like you can't pick one. Well,

27:03

it's just hard. The fun one was

27:05

when Cher was on the cover of

27:07

Time magazine in a dress that nobody

27:10

ever appeared on Time magazine in a

27:12

see-through address. I mean, you know, they

27:14

were, you actually just describe it for

27:16

everyone. Old men. Well, it was just

27:19

kind of a sheer thing and there

27:21

were beads and diamonds and things coming

27:23

up in important places, so you're not

27:25

looking at somebody just. through the shower

27:28

door, you know, it wasn't like that.

27:30

She wanted to wear, she had worn

27:32

that dress for a spread in in

27:35

vogue on fashion in the 20th century,

27:37

starting with the 20s. And then by,

27:39

this was in December, by February, Time

27:41

magazine was coming out and she was

27:44

a big hit and they were going

27:46

to put her on the cover and

27:48

she was going to wear something else

27:51

just as... just as good but not

27:53

as you know crazy as that dress

27:55

yeah and and then people were like

27:57

oh it's shocking, it's horrible, it's not

28:00

fashion. And, you know, she will pick

28:02

out the dress that she wants to

28:04

wear. It's never anything ordinary. You know

28:06

with share with Carol Burnett like I

28:09

mean these are if I can say

28:11

it these are like gonna be the

28:13

dresses they're named in your obituary right

28:16

you're like do you think about it

28:18

probably written that obituary a few times

28:20

and then oh well he like he

28:22

got through that one I mean like

28:25

beyond those dresses like like would you

28:27

think about your legacy like and what

28:29

that will I don't think about stuff

28:32

like I think about the work and

28:34

what it's being done for. You know,

28:36

you just, you just, you can't, you

28:38

know, you just can't do that. And

28:41

are you officially retired now?

28:43

No, not really. I just, after I,

28:45

we did the share show, I went

28:47

to Las Vegas. This is the most

28:49

recent share on Broadway. Yeah, no, the

28:52

big one, yeah, not the TV show.

28:54

Four years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:56

And I got a Tony and all

28:58

that. And I thought, you know, I

29:01

just liked it. rest a little bit

29:03

for the moment and then go back

29:05

and do stuff. But when you live

29:07

in Palm Springs, you're not doing a

29:10

lot of theater and whatever in LA

29:12

because it's two or three hours away.

29:14

But it's fine, I'm happy, you know,

29:16

and I do little projects and stuff

29:19

that come up. But you know, at

29:21

80, 85, about to be 86, you

29:23

know, you're not building a career at

29:25

that point. You're doing things that sound

29:28

like they'd be fun to do. Thank

29:30

you for such a great conversation. Oh,

29:32

good. Well, I hope I hope so

29:34

right. Talk about ego. You're talking about

29:37

yourself. And that is Bob Mackey. His

29:39

documentary is called Bob Mackey, Naked Illusion,

29:41

and it's now streaming on Amazon Prime

29:43

video. And then get excited because this

29:45

is the part of the show where

29:48

I give the ever so friendly ever

29:50

so gentle reminder that our podcast is

29:52

a listener supported not ad supported show.

29:54

So if you enjoy the work we

29:57

do here, you can help us continue

29:59

to document the stories of queer elders.

30:01

Joining our sub stack is the best

30:03

way to do that. There is a

30:06

link to the sub stack in our

30:08

show notes. And if you want to

30:10

subscribe to our newsletter but can't or

30:12

don't want to contribute any money, hey,

30:15

it's okay. There is a free option

30:17

in the newsletter as well. The newsletter

30:19

is free. The show is free. None

30:21

of that is going to change. But

30:24

if you can ship in and help

30:26

us out, that would be ever

30:28

so helpful in ensuring that we

30:30

can continue this work. Thank you so

30:32

much to everyone who has done that.

30:35

And thank you for listening. I'm Jeffrey

30:37

Masters. I'll see you next time. Bye.