0:01

Ballarat's one of those places where

0:03

everyone sort of knows everyone. It

0:05

is still a pretty big It is

0:07

Victorian city, but there is that

0:09

sort of closeness as you spoke

0:12

about. is that sort Some of the theories

0:14

and rumors that we've heard in

0:16

the past and to nine months,

0:18

just ridiculous. months, just was I It was

0:20

just unbelievable. And I mean, And

0:22

I mean, seriously, decade, one

0:25

of one of the crime stories,

0:27

they've made made in arrest over

0:29

Easy Street. I'm Andrew Rule and this is

0:31

Life and today and have

0:33

a a full of

0:35

colleagues. the left, from the left,

0:37

who's recently recently returned to

0:40

us from other parts. We

0:42

have Olivia Jenkins and Our expert Our

0:45

expert reporters are here because there

0:47

has been a year full of

0:49

events. been There's been crimes of

0:51

all sorts. Starting back in February, on

0:53

on February the the 4th memory, with

0:56

the disappearance of Sam Murphy,

0:58

Samantha Murphy, at Ballarat.

1:00

Now this was a was

1:02

thing that became more shocking. shocking

1:04

by the day and then by

1:06

the week as it turned out

1:08

that there was no sign of

1:11

this wife and mother who'd gone

1:13

jogging near her family farmlet, just

1:15

outside Ballarat, and and had vanished into

1:17

thin air. air. Clearly. something

1:19

bad had happened, had but

1:21

we didn't know exactly what

1:24

it was. I suspect was.

1:26

I suspect that the police

1:28

started to formulate some theories.

1:30

theories reasonably early early in the piece. What do

1:32

do you think? Yeah, that's

1:34

right. Well, they were scouring, as

1:36

you said, bushland in Ballarat.

1:38

Pretty much from when she went

1:40

missing, there were very highly publicized

1:43

search efforts with with missing and

1:45

a range of sort of specialist

1:47

teams from across different areas

1:49

of Victoria different areas of police reporting

1:51

at some stage as well. brought in

1:54

at some stage as well. dogs as

1:56

well well, who in some some cases have

1:58

been trained to especially sniff out. out.

2:00

technology in the ground and things

2:02

that have been hidden and buried

2:04

deliberately. So they were brought in

2:06

as well and of course forensic

2:09

experts were scouring Bushline with them

2:11

as well and all of this

2:13

has been done since February 4

2:15

and I say that because they

2:17

still haven't located her remains and

2:19

despite that fact the accused who

2:21

we now know to be a

2:23

young man from the same area

2:26

as well who goes by the

2:28

name of Patrick Orrin Stevenson who's

2:30

a 22 23 year old who

2:32

has been in custody since around

2:34

early March and has since pleaded

2:36

not guilty to what police say

2:38

is her murder. It's

2:40

a fascinating case and of course

2:42

Steve will be a trial eventually

2:45

and we won't be speculating about

2:47

who done what because that would

2:49

be wrong. But in general terms

2:51

I can recall driving to Ballarat

2:53

in that first fortnight or so.

2:55

because I had a reason to

2:57

go there and I thought I'll

2:59

go up early and have a

3:01

look around and drove around past

3:03

their house and then out those

3:06

country roads and through the bush

3:08

and so on just to get

3:10

a feel for it. I thought

3:12

while I'm here I might as

3:14

well have a good look, you

3:16

know there's a dam over there

3:18

and there's a gravel road here

3:20

and all that and all of

3:22

it very close to Ballarat itself,

3:24

extremely close. So within minutes of

3:27

being in bushland, and farmland, you're

3:29

right in suburban Ballarat. And if

3:31

you go down there on that

3:33

side of Ballarat, there's a pub

3:35

and there's a bottle shop and

3:37

at, you know, 6 p.m. on

3:39

a Saturday afternoon, there's three young

3:41

people off their brains walking along

3:43

the middle of the street, yelling

3:45

at cars, throwing bottles of stuff,

3:48

clearly off their heads on more

3:50

substance than one. And it made

3:52

me think, so you're doing that,

3:54

you're doing that at about six

3:56

or seven o'clock on a Saturday

3:58

evening. I wonder how messy you're

4:00

going to be by 5am tomorrow.

4:02

on Sunday you're going to be

4:04

very dangerous if you're driving around

4:06

because you're clearly off your brains.

4:09

Brig and Hodge. Ballarat's one of

4:11

those places where everyone sort of

4:13

knows everyone. It is still a

4:15

pretty big regional Victorian city but

4:17

there is that sort of closeness

4:19

as you spoke about. Some of

4:21

the theories and rumors that we've

4:23

heard in the past six to

4:25

nine months, just ridiculous. They are

4:27

too graphic and too inappropriate to

4:30

even publish. Horrible. But they are

4:32

just swirling around the rumor mill

4:34

in Ballarat. We've been sent text

4:36

messages that this might have allegedly

4:38

happened. This person has it out

4:40

for this person. None of those

4:42

have been substantiated in court. So

4:44

it's just been a wild ride.

4:46

We're talking. American news stations picking

4:48

this story up. It's funny you

4:51

can get Australian crimes that sort

4:53

of they pluck a cord in

4:55

the international interest, you know, often

4:57

that outbacky thing gets them in.

4:59

Some crimes play bigger over there

5:01

than they do here in a

5:03

way because they find it endlessly

5:05

exotic, you know, when, you know,

5:07

Dingo takes a baby or whatever

5:09

it might be. It's very interesting

5:12

for young readers and perhaps young

5:14

reporters to see how crazy people

5:16

can speculate and how how certain

5:18

they can be that their theory

5:20

is right because they were told

5:22

by Joe at the pub whose

5:24

uncle is a policeman's best mate

5:26

or something and ultimately all these

5:28

things turn out to be hot

5:30

air. It does make you realize

5:33

how we have to be careful

5:35

because people will always fill the

5:37

void with speculation and the speculation

5:39

becomes a rumor and the rumor

5:41

becomes sort of a de facto

5:43

fact in the absence of it

5:45

of real facts. Which is why

5:47

I guess we have to be

5:49

really careful reporting on this because

5:52

even if you hear one of

5:54

those rumors from say six people,

5:56

you still might be completely... if

5:58

you want to publish it. So

6:00

they all might have heard it

6:02

from the same one person. Exactly.

6:04

Absolutely. And the Echo Chamber effect

6:06

is very powerful and it's over

6:08

and over in all these years

6:10

I've been doing it. You keep

6:13

thing, you know, often you hear

6:15

something going, my God, that's great.

6:17

And I don't think I've ever

6:19

heard something that sounds like a

6:21

great story that's ever panned out

6:23

to be one. I might be

6:25

wrong, but mostly they're not. Maybe

6:27

a fraction of what it started

6:29

off. Mostly they're just, if they're

6:31

too good to be true, they're

6:34

not true. But we'll see what

6:36

happens with that one. Clearly, it's

6:38

an awful thing, but it's probably

6:40

a fairly banal explanation. Wrong place,

6:42

wrong time. Police haven't been without

6:44

their breakthroughs. You know, we say

6:46

this noting that they haven't found

6:48

her body, but throughout this entire

6:50

investigation there have been updates and

6:52

of course one of the most

6:55

important being that they managed to

6:57

locate her phone in a dam

6:59

that you were talking about earlier

7:01

up in Banan Yong and that

7:03

was probably one of the most

7:05

significant breakthroughs in the case for

7:07

at least a few months. Anthony

7:09

Dowsley. Yeah Andrew that was at

7:11

the beginning of the year but

7:13

a story that's playing out right

7:16

now is the arrest over the

7:18

murders at Easy Street that happened

7:20

way back in 1977. Easy Street

7:22

is one of the biggest crime

7:24

stories of my lifetime without a

7:26

doubt. It's up there with the

7:28

Beaumont children and a few others.

7:30

And mostly, two reasons. This street

7:32

is a name that it sticks

7:34

in the head. If it was

7:37

called, you know, Smith Street it

7:39

wouldn't have the same resonance. And

7:41

the other one is that it

7:43

has never been solved. And for

7:45

what, 40-something years, it looked as

7:47

if it would never be solved.

7:49

And they would never get near

7:51

it. And then out of the

7:53

blue. comes an arrest in Rome

7:55

late this year, an astonishing development,

7:58

and I would have offered 50,000

8:00

to one against it happening, but

8:02

there it is. It's just, it's

8:04

so fascinating. odds are so long.

8:06

Just by and large when somebody's

8:08

been murdered all that time ago

8:10

you start to think well it's

8:12

so long ago there's no evidence

8:14

left there's probably the only candidates

8:16

for it are dead you know

8:19

if they couldn't solve it then

8:21

why are they going to be

8:23

able to solve it now? And

8:25

usually that's true, usually that's right,

8:27

but they just went back through

8:29

the files as one it'll as

8:31

often said and others probably have

8:33

said. The answer is often in

8:35

the file that they have actually

8:37

spoken to somebody who knows more

8:40

than they let on and that

8:42

the names in the file that

8:44

were, you know, collected in that

8:46

first fortnight, often hold a clue

8:48

to solving an old unsolved and

8:50

indeed in this case. We're not

8:52

saying it solved. In this case

8:54

it did lead back to week

8:56

one when a guy called Perry

8:59

Karumbles, who called him Perry which

9:01

is short for his rather exotic

9:03

Greek first name, was pulled up

9:05

in Collingwood by a very young

9:07

uniformed policeman, who was only, what,

9:09

21 or 2 or something at

9:11

the time. He knew Perry has

9:13

a bit of a local scallywag.

9:15

You know, a kid around 18

9:17

years old, said, pull over, open

9:20

the boot, give me a look.

9:22

When he looks in the boot,

9:24

he finds a sheath knife, knew

9:26

his looking knife. opened it up,

9:28

had a look, and either the

9:30

policeman or later other police found

9:32

a little bit of blood left

9:34

inside the scabbard, a leather scabbard

9:36

or sheath, and Perry Corumulus' name

9:38

was handed to the homicide squad

9:41

of the day. as you know

9:43

he's got a knife he's from

9:45

around there and Karumbles was interviewed

9:47

very robustly as they used to

9:49

do in those times. It was

9:51

a different world I have to

9:53

say and they used to interview

9:55

people with extreme vehemence and clearly

9:57

he we stood that and they

9:59

said well it's not him his

10:02

story is he picked the knife

10:04

up near the railway track at

10:06

Victoria Park which sort of makes

10:08

sense because if somebody was running

10:10

away from the murder scene and

10:12

they might throw it off that

10:14

footbridge and drop it on the

10:16

railway track makes sense he may

10:18

well have picked it up and

10:20

indeed They didn't look at

10:23

that guy again for more than

10:25

40 years. Until about 2017, around

10:27

about that. Yeah, around then. In

10:29

fact, yeah, 40 odd years. What

10:31

was it in 2017 that come

10:33

about whether he was interviewed again?

10:35

They finally got around to going

10:37

through again. One of their problems

10:40

was they always had a short

10:42

list of names. They had eight

10:44

names on a list and they

10:46

had, you know, Barry Woodard, the

10:48

shearer, and his brother. They buried,

10:50

gone out with one of the

10:52

girls, Suzanne Armstrong, for Mira. The

10:54

coppers always naturally thought he might

10:56

have been jealous, whatever. He was

10:59

a good candidate they thought and

11:01

several other people, they had six

11:03

others. One of them had gone

11:05

back to England, he'd gone to

11:07

England, this one of the eight

11:09

suspects. So in 2008, roughly, they

11:11

had this group of eight people

11:13

and they said, right, let's go

11:15

and donate them, we've now got

11:17

DNA, it's really good. and they

11:20

did Barry Woodhart and his brother,

11:22

you know, Robert, tick, not him.

11:24

They do, you know, Bill Smith

11:26

somewhere else and they do Andrew

11:28

Jones somewhere else and they fly

11:30

to England and they go down

11:32

to some coastal resort place and

11:34

they get some derelict who used

11:36

to live in Melbourne and he's

11:38

getting his dull check and they

11:41

grab him and get him to

11:43

lick on the spit on the

11:45

thing. They check the DNA, not

11:47

him. and there was a famous

11:49

famous racing driver involved but I

11:51

don't know that they denied that

11:53

well they tried to get his

11:55

name and in fact I think

11:57

they did from relatives oh yes

11:59

he's one of his, yeah. To

12:02

eliminate him. Yeah, Peter Brock, we're

12:04

talking about. Peter Brock. He was

12:06

one of many people who had

12:08

visited that house or, and others

12:10

include the, and he told me

12:12

this himself, there's no secret, Bernie

12:14

the attorney. Bernie bummer, the

12:16

well-known defense lawyer, as a young man

12:19

had visited that house because he'd come

12:21

from Broadford and he'd been taught by

12:23

Suzanne Bartlett and so he knew he

12:25

knew his old teacher and whatever and

12:28

he visited the house and the police

12:30

knew that because he'd left his school

12:32

jumper there. He still had a school

12:34

jumper which he used to wear because

12:36

back in those days children we were

12:39

very poor and we would wear our

12:41

school jumpers. after we left school and

12:43

his name was in the back of

12:45

his jumper, B Bama. So the coppers

12:48

at that time called him and said

12:50

what's your jumper doing here and he

12:52

told him I visited Miss Bartlett or

12:54

whatever. So this process of DNA elimination

12:57

because they had DNA from the crime

12:59

scene is what has led to a

13:01

call at Perry's house?

13:03

That short list of eight, they were

13:06

eliminated. And I think that sort of

13:08

flattened the police's big effort. And they

13:10

went, oh, we haven't got a list.

13:13

So they left it alone for another

13:15

nine years. And then we get to

13:17

our 2017. That's right. And then they

13:19

said, now let's actually have a good

13:22

go at this. And they gave it

13:24

to some keen person who was a

13:26

good worker who compiled a long list

13:29

of what 116 names or something along

13:31

more than 100 and of course many

13:33

of them were already dead so let's

13:35

say there was 90 left on the

13:38

list or something yeah and they started

13:40

to tick them off go and get

13:42

DNA and when they knocked on the

13:45

door of Perry Caroulbla so it was

13:47

just one of the 90 and said

13:49

Perry you know remember us you know

13:51

Our ancestors interviewed you back in 1977.

13:54

When the police approached Perry Carumless, apparently

13:56

he wasn't that keen on giving them.

13:58

sample, which is he's right and everybody's

14:01

right. A lot of innocent people don't

14:03

like giving DNA samples. I wouldn't be

14:05

keen on it myself. No. Because you

14:07

never know what can happen with them.

14:10

They can make a mess in the

14:12

laboratory and mix it up with somebody

14:14

else and they're seeing you in jail

14:17

for something you didn't do. So it's

14:19

fair enough. Now the point is he

14:21

didn't give it and he went to

14:23

Greece and he didn't come back and

14:26

that made him more interesting than he

14:28

had seemed earlier. And why can't we

14:30

just go to Greece and get him?

14:33

So please you ask that because there

14:35

is a Greek law that says you

14:37

can't just come along and talk to

14:39

somebody about a 20 plus year old

14:42

crime and extradite them because they don't

14:44

have extradition with us on those terms.

14:46

We have a marvelous relationship with Greece.

14:49

We do, we are the biggest Greek

14:51

city outside Athens, are we not? That's

14:53

right. So that's surprising to me. Yeah.

14:55

That we don't have any extradition treaty

14:58

with that country. Well, you're right, but

15:00

we don't. So of course, it was

15:02

then up to the police to really

15:05

think about this and work out how

15:07

they could. get him to

15:09

come home and I think probably they

15:11

worked out that if he went to

15:14

Italy or somewhere nearby that they could

15:16

then get into Poland to grab him

15:18

and that scenario unfolded. Or does anyone

15:21

here know? did they say he won

15:23

the lottery and he had to pick

15:25

up the prize money in Rome? There

15:28

was there was talk of some sort

15:30

of business venture or the real estate

15:32

business venture there's been a few sort

15:34

of yeah possibilities thrown around there was

15:37

the initial talk of some sort of

15:39

holiday talk of the timing of that

15:41

was interesting given that he hadn't left

15:44

Greece specifically Athens where he's got a

15:46

brother that he was living with for

15:48

the past few years I think following

15:51

the death of their their their mom

15:53

which he'd stayed since So yeah, he

15:55

up and left and the Interpol notice

15:58

triggered the alert to the Australian authorities.

16:00

it'll probably be alleged in court that

16:02

somebody lured him to Rome on the

16:04

promise of some business deal, but so

16:07

what? How frustrating would it have been

16:09

for the police to have to wait

16:11

till he left that country till they

16:14

could pounce on him? Like, it was

16:16

there for years and years. They'd forget

16:18

about it some days. but how frustrating

16:21

for investigators that they feel like they're

16:23

so close to making an arrest but

16:25

they can't because of international law. Exactly.

16:27

So it was very good that a

16:30

way was devised to get him to

16:32

go to visit Rome and I think

16:34

they grabbed him at the airport as

16:37

soon as he flew in. There was

16:39

a team waiting for him. A cunning

16:41

plan. A possibly. Then of course he

16:44

went to the world's worst prison in...

16:46

I saw him at the right. I

16:48

think inside it might be ordinary. A

16:50

bit overcrowded and he wouldn't have any

16:53

legal aid there. So after a while

16:55

he thought I might as well fight

16:57

this back home where I can get

17:00

legal aid and be in a nicer

17:02

jail on the demand, I presume. So

17:05

are you saying that that might

17:07

be the biggest trial of the

17:09

year if it happens in 2025?

17:11

Gee, it's one of the big

17:13

ones for me. And if it

17:15

gets to trial. They're all good.

17:17

They're like children, these trials. You

17:20

can't have a favourite. They're all

17:22

good. They're all good. That's how

17:24

I feel about them. Yeah, and

17:26

one's a little fat guy and

17:28

one's tall and thin, but they're

17:30

all good. You're describing yourself and

17:32

myself and myself? No. Yeah, I'm

17:34

really tall. The podcast Faith on

17:36

Trial looks into Hillsong both in

17:38

Australia and the US and takes

17:40

both the listener and hosts on

17:42

unexpected twists and turns in the

17:44

story of Brian Houston and the

17:46

singing preachers. There are two incidents

17:48

involving Pastor Brian. The Australian journalists

17:50

uncovered a litany of alleged criminal

17:52

behavior in the mega church. Financial

17:54

gifts were being given to the

17:57

leaders of the church. Listen to

17:59

Faith on trial. hills, song,

18:01

ad-free on Crynext Plus on Apple

18:03

podcasts today or wherever you get

18:05

your podcasts. Cocaine is a global

18:07

industry where the profits are counted

18:09

up in millions and the losses

18:11

measured out in murders. Because it's

18:13

only business. And right now, business

18:15

is good. And I'm like, to

18:17

watch yourself, what are you talking

18:19

about? I don't think we can

18:21

arrest our way out of this.

18:23

Listen to cocaine ink, wherever you

18:25

get your podcast, or visit cocaineink.com.a-you.

18:28

Women, this is something that's languished

18:30

over your career. It's coming into

18:32

the stages of Reagan and Ice.

18:34

Yes. Now, it's language so long,

18:36

it's language over Ron Riddle's career,

18:38

but who were Suzanne Armstrong and

18:40

Susan. Well, they lived in the

18:42

house together, but how did they

18:44

could be there? Well, the two

18:46

sues. There's Big Sue and Little

18:48

Sue. They came from the North

18:50

East. They'd known each other at,

18:52

I think, Banella High School. There

18:54

were good friends there. Big Sue

18:56

was a very beautiful woman. Susan

18:58

Armstrong was a small, vivacious, sort

19:00

of tough, tomboyish girl. Known to

19:02

my family incidentally, it just shows

19:05

you. We live in a village

19:07

because so often when crimes happen,

19:09

tragedies happen, it affects someone that

19:11

you know, in fact my grandmother,

19:13

my dear old grandmother who's no

19:15

longer with us, made the wedding

19:17

cake or iced the wedding cake

19:19

of the Armstrongs. The parents of

19:21

Sue, and I met them, they

19:23

visited us once when I was

19:25

a kid, not her though, it

19:27

was her little sister for sure.

19:29

And I remember meeting them and

19:31

so on. So they were country

19:33

people, they were, in those days

19:35

I think, farmers, the Armstrongs. They

19:37

go to school together, they come

19:40

to Melbourne together, Little Sue is

19:42

a traveler, adventurous. bit bawsy. She

19:44

goes to London, she goes to

19:46

the Greek islands, she comes back,

19:48

she goes to London, goes to

19:50

the quick islands. she falls in

19:52

love with a Greek fisherman on

19:54

an island of Naxos. She wants

19:56

to get married or they want

19:58

to get married or whatever, but

20:00

it's tricky with certain rules and

20:02

regulations over there in that era.

20:04

And she has a little boy

20:06

that she called Gregory, which is

20:08

not a terribly Greek name, but

20:10

there you go. And she comes

20:12

home to Melbourne after telling her

20:14

Greek fishermen that they'll sort it

20:17

out and they'll all get married

20:19

later on and live happily ever

20:21

after. What she actually did was

20:23

go to Collingwood and rent a

20:25

house with Susan Bartlett and live

20:27

happily ever after there, in fact

20:29

for a few weeks, not ever

20:31

after him. She used to be

20:33

seen riding a bike around Collingwood

20:35

with a little carrier basket on

20:37

the back. She's one of the

20:39

early adopters of what is so

20:41

common now. She was very unusual

20:43

then. And you know, cooking up

20:45

a storm and they had a

20:47

pet dog and lived a... very

20:49

bohemian life. They had a lot

20:52

of friends and a lot of

20:54

people used to come around for

20:56

drink and a barbecue and all

20:58

that sort of stuff. And that

21:00

made it difficult for the police

21:02

when they were murdered because the

21:04

police, it wasn't that they didn't

21:06

have one or two suspects, they

21:08

had too many. They had, you

21:10

know, there's a racing car driver.

21:12

There's a journalist. Yes, he was

21:14

next door on the night of

21:16

the night of the murders. He

21:18

was staying with... two young women

21:20

who worked in newspapers, one of

21:22

whom I knew because I worked

21:24

with her at the age. She

21:26

was the one that found the

21:29

bodies. There was obviously a boyfriend.

21:31

There were boyfriends, there were other

21:33

friends, there were friends of boyfriends,

21:35

there were so many people. A

21:37

very popular people. They were popular.

21:39

They were well known, they were

21:41

gregarious, etc. and they had a

21:43

lot of visitors and that made

21:45

it very hard for the police

21:47

to sort of work out who

21:49

was who in the zoo. And

21:51

incredibly one visitor came in. a

21:53

back entrance. You did? Well, I

21:55

think we both of the victims

21:57

were. Yeah, I think we had

21:59

two eggs in the front of

22:01

the house. I think the shearer

22:04

and his brother turned up, lucky

22:06

there was two of them possibly

22:08

in a way. And one wanted

22:10

to go down and look at

22:12

the into the house and the

22:14

other bike said, no, no, it's

22:16

a bit rude. You can't walk

22:18

in. They got into the kitchen,

22:20

okay, through the back gate. And

22:22

it's one of these terrace houses.

22:24

It's a long, skinny terrace house.

22:26

All way at the front and

22:28

then there's a bit of a

22:30

kitchen at the back. They're very

22:32

long and thin. Yeah. So you,

22:34

you know, you're 25 meters from

22:36

the front door. Yeah. And the

22:38

other brother said, no, it's a

22:41

bit rude, don't go up there.

22:43

But 18 months or whatever he

22:45

was. And another fellow climbed through

22:47

one of the bedroom windows. That's

22:49

right. And he wrote down, and

22:51

there was a telephone with the

22:53

home phone number, and he wrote

22:55

down the phone number on his

22:57

back of the cigarettes and climbed

22:59

back out the window, Suzanne Bartlett's

23:01

window, and Susan Bartlett wasn't killed

23:03

there. She was in the hallway.

23:05

Yeah. So he didn't see anything.

23:07

Unbelievable. And of course, he would

23:09

have been in a lot of

23:11

trouble, but he had a mate.

23:13

who'd driven him there. And the

23:15

mate said, no, I drove him

23:18

there, it was 10 o'clock and

23:20

I was in, you know, and

23:22

he was okay. But there's two

23:24

guys that could have been in

23:26

a world of trouble, and also

23:28

John Grant, the journal, who stayed

23:30

next door the previous night. I

23:32

remember him, he was a very

23:34

knockabout fellow for a journal, he

23:36

ran around with a lot of

23:38

crooks, he was well known to

23:40

crooks, pretty well respected by crooks

23:42

in a way that we don't

23:44

see these days because he worked

23:46

for the truth newspaper which was

23:48

a sort of a scandal rag,

23:50

but a very good newspaper in

23:53

its way, I used to break

23:55

a lot of stories and John

23:57

Grant was good at breaking stories

23:59

and he had good contacts among

24:01

the crooks. among the police and

24:03

did a lot of drinking and

24:05

all the rest of it. He

24:07

had one problem and his problem

24:09

was he'd been one of the

24:11

last to see alive a girl

24:13

called Julie Garcia Salé about 18

24:15

months earlier in North Melbourne and

24:17

she clearly was abducted and murdered.

24:19

Yeah. There's no doubt. That's true.

24:21

That's what happened. And three men

24:23

have been at her flat that

24:25

night. And one of them was

24:27

John Grant. And the other two,

24:30

the other two were scalywags. Yeah.

24:32

But one of them was a

24:34

very bad man called John Joseph

24:36

Power, who undoubtedly killed her. I

24:38

remember John Joseph Power. Yes. No

24:40

good. You didn't remember him. I

24:42

do. Yes. Why is that? Oh,

24:45

I remember hearing about him when

24:47

I was a kid. Oh, yeah.

24:49

Yeah, he was bad, yes. So

24:51

John Grant had a big problem.

24:53

He didn't have form, but he'd

24:55

been, here he was next door

24:57

to a double murder, and 18

24:59

months before, he'd been one of

25:01

three men at a flat where

25:03

Julie Garcia Sala California girl had

25:05

disappeared from. And John Grant was

25:07

probably fairly frank with the police

25:09

when he was interviewed about that,

25:11

but I note with Easy Street,

25:13

I think he went through a

25:15

very robust interrogation I was told.

25:17

He must have felt incredibly unlucky.

25:19

He was very unlucky and he

25:21

would have felt more unlucky after

25:23

24 hours at Russell Street because

25:26

they gave in the rounds of

25:28

the kitchen. I know that because

25:30

the head of the homicide squad

25:32

told me later and no doubt.

25:34

So he had a real rough

25:36

time. Totally totally innocent. There's nothing

25:38

to connect with it whatsoever. Yep.

25:40

Always was. Always was. Andrew, can

25:42

I fast forward to September 2024?

25:44

Please. It was a Saturday morning,

25:46

the usual Saturday morning in the

25:48

office here. Yep. You were at

25:50

home or it was your day

25:52

off? Yep. Can you talk us

25:54

through the first few moments when

25:56

you learned that there had been

25:58

an arrest and a... in

26:01

this case. Obviously you've covered it so many

26:03

times in previous years. I was staggered. It

26:05

was just unbelievable. And I mean, seriously, this

26:08

decade, one of the great crime stories that

26:10

they've made in arrest over Easy Street. It's,

26:12

it's, you know, it's right up there and,

26:14

you know, Beaumonts is the other one and

26:16

there's not many others that you could think

26:19

of. And Mr. Cruel, I guess. Yeah. If

26:21

they suddenly arrested someone for Mr. Cruel it

26:23

would be, it'll be that big. Did you

26:25

think they would ever arrest anyone? No. Had

26:28

no reason to think that. But looking at

26:30

it now, I go, well, a lot of

26:32

lazy policing in those days and they didn't

26:34

have all the tools that we've got there.

26:37

And DNA is the big one. And DNA

26:39

is the big one. Now the Italian police

26:41

have been coordinating their efforts with Australian authorities

26:43

over this. They obviously had a specialised team

26:46

ready to go when Interpol picked him up

26:48

flying into Rome. He was obviously arrested at

26:50

Fumichino Airport. Yes, Karumbulis sat in an Italian

26:52

prison for a while. There was a fairly

26:54

straightforward extradition process and three members of Victoria

26:57

Police, including the head of the homicide squad

26:59

Dean Thomas, went over and collected him. He

27:01

was interviewed by police and charged with murder

27:03

and rape. And now, Olivia, he's on remark.

27:06

the remand where he'll maybe be in some

27:08

slightly better conditions than in Rome where it's

27:10

very overcrowded and subpar jail cell as we

27:12

understand but he would have undergone a health

27:15

check I think as well and he's understood

27:17

to be in pretty good health and is

27:19

understood to be quite worried about what he's

27:21

up against. But he agreed to return. That's

27:24

the interesting thing. He did. He didn't fight

27:26

it. And I think as you said Andrew,

27:28

he probably thought he'd have a better shot

27:30

at fighting this thing if he's got better

27:33

legal representation with his interest at heart in

27:35

his hometown or his home city. He was

27:37

appointed a public defender in Rome who has

27:39

obviously fulfilled her duty and done a good

27:41

job and made sure he's OK physically and

27:44

mentally and mentally and everything and facilitated a

27:46

visit with at least one of his brother.

27:48

his sort of temporary detention in Rome, but

27:50

now that job will be handed over to

27:53

a legal counsel of his own choosing, which

27:55

he can do. Corumbus has already chosen his

27:57

representation. Bill Dug, who's a high profile solicitor

27:59

in Melbourne, he gets a lot of the

28:02

big cases. So he's already got a lawyer

28:04

and now he could even go for bail

28:06

possibly, but he would have to go to

28:08

the Supreme Court to get that. It's quite

28:11

rare in murder cases, but it's not out

28:13

of the realms of possibility. So what do

28:15

you think Andrew? That'd be interesting. Someone somewhere

28:17

will have to pull a large tin of

28:19

money out of the backyard. Someone will argue

28:22

that he's a light risk, but I think

28:24

I think that's given that the Crime is

28:26

so long ago He will he might just

28:28

go for bail. He and he it's conceivably

28:31

get it He does have support from his

28:33

brothers, Andreas and Greece, and he's got another

28:35

brother in Boleyn, which is obviously in the

28:37

eastern suburbs, which isn't too far from where

28:40

he lived for quite a long time. Not

28:42

too far from his old business in Dandenong,

28:44

so he does have people here that may

28:46

back him if he does apply for that.

28:49

Well, that's one of the interesting aspects of

28:51

this case. Given he's been charged, it'll be

28:53

up to the court to determine whether he

28:55

gets bail and indeed whether he's guilty or

28:57

not guilty. And so I suppose it's a

29:00

case of watch this space and it's only

29:02

really interesting to see where this case goes

29:04

in 2025. Well, it's been quite enlightening talking

29:06

to you, I think we should. Hi, it's

29:09

Gary Jublin here. Do you want a real

29:11

and raw look inside the world of crime?

29:13

Well then check out my podcast, I Catch

29:15

Killers, where I interview people from all sides

29:18

of the law. I draw my firearm and

29:20

I went into fight mode. I wanted to

29:22

find and confront this government. I'm not getting

29:24

verbal demo. I shouldn't have trusted you. See,

29:27

I'm trying to open my mind up to

29:29

defense policy. I know, it's just begging to

29:31

be said. Fair call. Fair call. We have

29:33

amazing guests every week, search for eye catch

29:36

killers, wherever you get your podcast. you know

29:38

that you know that

29:40

there's more than 2 ,000

29:42

stocks listed on the

29:44

Australian stock exchange? Most

29:47

of which you've never

29:49

heard of, most of

29:51

which are actually right

29:53

at the cutting of,

29:56

of what's going to

29:58

drive our economy into

30:00

the future. at the They're

30:02

in mining, searching for

30:05

the battery metals to

30:07

power us into the

30:09

future. Medical companies, researching

30:11

the next big breakthrough for

30:14

make us healthy into

30:16

the future. power us companies,

30:18

brilliant young Australian entrepreneurs

30:20

seeking the next big

30:22

tech unicorn. Well, Well

30:25

you want to know

30:27

about them, search them, search

30:29

Stockhead is focused on

30:31

the small you never

30:34

know. You could find

30:36

the next big thing, find

30:38

the.com .au. stockhead.com.a.U. Come back and back and

30:40

do this again. See you next week.

30:42

you. you. Let's do it. Thanks, Andrew.

30:52

Thanks for listening. listening. Life

30:54

a Sunday Herald is

30:56

a Sunday Herald Australia. Our

30:59

producer is Johnty Burton. For

31:01

my columns, is

31:04

and more, go True

31:06

to For my.com .au to

31:08

heraldson.com.a you forward word. For

31:11

one word. For go to inquiries

31:14

go to news at

31:16

news.com .au. That

31:18

is all one word, news

31:20

podcasts sold. And if you want you

31:22

want further information about

31:24

this episode, links are

31:27

in the description. you.

31:55

if you. you