0:00

Dr. Courtney Tracy is on

0:02

the show today. She is

0:04

known as the truth doctor

0:06

and is a USC trained

0:08

psychotherapist recognized as one of

0:10

the most authentic perspective shifting

0:12

voices on mental health and

0:15

the human condition. And one

0:17

of the first therapists to

0:19

be openly talking about her

0:21

borderline personality disorder. If you

0:23

are a therapist, you know

0:25

that borderline personality disorder was

0:27

the treatment for that.

0:29

historically been DBT, which

0:32

is Marsha Linahan, who also

0:34

talked openly about her

0:36

personality disorders treatment. But Dr.

0:38

Tracy gives us a new

0:40

lens to look through how

0:42

we understand this disorder, as

0:44

well as any really mental

0:46

health disorders, which is all

0:48

about the unconscious. And in

0:50

her new book, your unconscious

0:52

is showing. She takes you

0:54

through her 12-step model similar

0:56

to A-A, but... really something that

0:59

can be applied to anybody at

1:01

any point in their life. They

1:03

don't need to be suffering from

1:05

a mental health diagnosis in

1:07

order to benefit from her 12-step

1:10

program. So with that, I bring

1:12

you today's incredibly moving, connected, we

1:14

felt we were both very aligned

1:17

in how we were thinking about

1:19

things, episode with Dr. Courtney

1:21

Tracy. We need at our table

1:23

of awareness, the logician. But equally

1:25

we need the intuitive, we need

1:28

the mystic. I was died. I was

1:30

allowed to go to the very precipice of

1:32

death, of life and death, and look over

1:34

the edge. And I was allowed to behold

1:36

what was there and allowed to come back.

1:39

Most people aren't. When we talk about

1:41

being aligned with our self or

1:43

being aligned with our solar, hearing

1:45

our higher self, that's really what

1:47

we're talking about is being connected

1:49

to that divine part of ourselves,

1:51

that light filled part of us

1:53

that is connected to God energy,

1:55

that is connected to everybody here

1:57

and every experience we've ever had.

1:59

More doctors, more. professionals can open

2:02

up to use intuitive gifts

2:04

in their work. That's really

2:06

important. Hi, I'm Dr. Amy

2:09

Robbins and welcome to Life,

2:11

Death, and The Space Between.

2:14

I'm a licensed clinical psychologist

2:16

and medium. And here we

2:18

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4:42

Welcome Dr. Courtney

4:44

to Life Death

4:47

and The Space

4:49

Between. Thank you

4:51

so much for having

4:53

me. Okay, you are one

4:56

of the... I read a lot

4:58

of books. I read almost every

5:00

book for this. I read every

5:03

book for this podcast. And you're

5:05

speaking my language in so many

5:07

ways in this book because I

5:10

feel like the book is titled

5:12

Your Unconscious is Showing. I don't

5:14

have a physical copy yet because

5:16

it comes out in two weeks.

5:19

It comes out March 12th, March

5:21

11th. And so the book is

5:23

Your Unconscious is Showing. And I

5:25

think so often. in the field

5:28

of psychology lately, I was

5:30

actually just speaking with someone

5:32

earlier, we've moved away from

5:35

talking about the unconscious. We've

5:37

moved into the space of

5:40

CBT, empirically supported, everything is

5:42

evidence-based treatment, and it's

5:44

really gotten us far from

5:47

where I think the underpinnings of

5:49

psychology are and are still

5:51

so critical. So tell me

5:53

about what your unconscious is

5:55

showing. is for what it

5:58

means that you're unconscious. is

6:00

showing. Yeah, well thank you so

6:02

much for breaking that down. Can

6:04

I agree with you with where

6:06

the field has gone? Your unconscious

6:08

is showing. ultimately is a message

6:11

to say that it is obvious

6:13

why what is happening and why

6:15

what you're doing is what's happening

6:18

and what you're doing. And you

6:20

don't actually need, I mean, of

6:22

course, we need clinicians, psychologists, therapists,

6:24

when when our thoughts, feelings, and

6:27

behaviors have reached a level where

6:29

we need professional support and outside

6:31

of that. we can see the

6:33

reasons why we are doing, thinking,

6:36

and feeling the way that we

6:38

are. So your unconscious is showing

6:40

as a message to tell everyone

6:43

to look at it. Because it's

6:45

obvious and it's there and

6:47

the book shows you so

6:49

many different ways to see

6:51

your unconscious in various parts

6:53

and how they present. And

6:55

it's really a calling to

6:57

say look at what is

6:59

already obviously visible. So let's

7:01

start if we can

7:04

by operationalizing these terms.

7:06

How do you define

7:08

unconscious, subconscious,

7:11

and conscious? I would

7:13

say that conscious is

7:15

the awareness and the

7:17

knowing of how you

7:19

are behaving, thinking, or

7:22

feeling. Unconscious is

7:24

everything you are unaware

7:26

of. that you may

7:28

be thinking, feeling, or

7:30

that is causing your

7:33

behaviors. And subconscious, I

7:35

would define as a

7:37

level of your unconscious

7:39

mind that can

7:41

be psychologically affected

7:44

by your life

7:46

experiences. So do you

7:48

think of unconscious in

7:50

the way that Freud

7:52

described it or a little

7:54

bit different? That's

7:57

a good question because

7:59

Freud originally used the word subconscious

8:02

in the first few years of his

8:04

work and then stopped using the word

8:06

subconscious because he didn't like that it

8:08

emphasized that the that the non-conscious parts

8:11

of us were un or that the

8:13

non-conscious parts of us were subs that

8:15

they were beneath and so I believe

8:18

it in a similar way you know

8:20

if I really think about Freud and

8:22

the limitations of what he had to

8:25

work with back then there's there's a

8:27

you know, there's a chance that

8:29

we thought about it the

8:31

same way and he didn't

8:33

have the science to really

8:35

look at the brain and

8:37

the body in the way

8:39

that we now can as

8:41

humans today and the way

8:43

that's described in the

8:45

book. So for the most part,

8:48

I think I feel the same way

8:50

as it just elaborated

8:52

with the larger consciousness.

8:55

that is sometimes like in

8:57

the spiritual space can look

8:59

a little bit different. Yeah,

9:01

well, it really depends on how

9:03

you conceptualize it. I

9:06

mean, if someone is

9:08

considering spiritual consciousness,

9:10

right, I would say that

9:12

like spiritual consciousness or meaningful

9:15

consciousness is directed consciousness, it's

9:17

purposeful, it's intentional, you are,

9:20

it's goal oriented. And I

9:22

guess you could argue and

9:24

say that everything that's sentient

9:27

and has consciousness maybe also

9:29

has that goal direction, but

9:31

no language to express that

9:34

to us. Survival itself

9:36

is a goal oriented direction.

9:38

So I think it's just

9:40

that we have language as

9:43

humans to conceptualize and verbalize

9:45

this conscious motivation that we

9:47

have. I don't think I

9:49

can say that there's possibly

9:52

different types of consciousness itself.

9:54

It just manifests differently in

9:56

the being that is expressing

9:58

it. So when can you give some

10:00

examples of, I mean you've

10:02

had a long history for people

10:05

who don't know, can you share

10:07

a little bit about kind of

10:09

your mental health journey? It's pretty

10:11

remarkable and I think the

10:14

status of your relationship really

10:16

is so remarkable and really

10:19

is a testament to like

10:21

making your unconscious conscious so

10:23

you don't continue to repeat these

10:25

same mistakes and that when you

10:27

do You have, I mean, you

10:29

have an, it sounds like an

10:31

incredible partner who has been able

10:33

to respond to you in a

10:36

really positive way that I'm sure was

10:38

very healing. Yes. Yes. Thank you

10:40

for asking me to go into that

10:42

because it is, it really is the

10:44

crux of my recovery. So I grew

10:46

up on food stamps and welfare with

10:49

a single mother and a multi-generational household.

10:51

That led to a lot of mental

10:53

health and substance use issues being around

10:55

me and both meat. both being around

10:58

me and me beginning to experience

11:00

them at a young age. I

11:02

found substances at between 13 to

11:04

15. I really liked that. It

11:06

numbed my body, my brain, and

11:09

my mind. These things made me

11:11

feel better. I went to treatment

11:13

for the first time at 15

11:15

for methamphetamine and psychedelics. And that's

11:17

when I was introduced to the

11:19

treatment world and to the fact

11:22

that people helped other people get

11:24

better. Started studying psychology, went to

11:26

college, was still using substances, and

11:28

then went into an inpatient psychiatric

11:30

detoxification ward at 22 years old

11:32

while I was getting my bachelor's

11:35

for psychology and I was

11:37

diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

11:39

It is a highly emotional

11:41

and dysregulated disorder that is

11:43

pervasive and was believed for

11:46

a long time and can

11:48

be for many people a

11:50

lifelong disorder that debilitates you.

11:52

Getting that diagnosis was

11:54

actually... Can I just pause you

11:57

for one second? For people who

11:59

don't know... When we're treating in

12:01

psychology, we treat on five

12:03

axes, like when we diagnose,

12:06

but access to is where

12:08

you hear of personality disorders.

12:10

So more characterological, longstanding, much

12:13

more people would say treatment

12:15

resistant or difficult to treat

12:17

disorders. And so a lot

12:19

of people, particularly when they're

12:22

treating people with borderline, who

12:24

have been diagnosed with borderline

12:26

personality disorder or narcissistic personality

12:29

disorder. or histrionic personality disorder,

12:31

which is a cluster

12:34

specifically of disorders, often

12:36

dismiss them as untreatable.

12:38

Yes. Yes, we are dismissed

12:40

as untreatable and it's because

12:42

of the pervasive nature and

12:45

the extreme nature of the

12:47

symptoms. So I got that

12:49

diagnosis and I actually didn't

12:51

drown in the stigma of it,

12:53

which was surprising, but it was

12:55

important. Once I got that diagnosis

12:58

and exited the detoxification word, I

13:00

started my journey to becoming a

13:02

therapist. I said, I can heal

13:04

from this, I can treat people

13:06

with this. Like, I know that

13:09

this isn't me. But it also

13:11

is me, because who else is

13:13

doing it? Nobody, me. I'm doing

13:15

these behaviors. So then I also

13:17

opened up my own treatment center

13:19

five years after that happened down

13:22

the street from the hospital that

13:24

I was diagnosed in. Got my

13:26

masters, got my doctorate. However, right

13:28

before I finished my doctorate, my

13:30

husband and I who owned this

13:33

treatment center together went out after

13:35

having our baby and had a

13:37

really traumatic family experience happen that

13:39

was unexpected and really brought

13:41

our unconscious to light. He

13:44

had a major PTSD episode

13:46

that was activated from the

13:49

first early years of our

13:51

relationship where I was unfaithful,

13:53

angry, aggressive, violent, self-violent. And

13:56

of course these memories were in

13:58

his mind. So we had this.

14:00

experience happened, it was broadcast all over

14:02

the city, and that was when I

14:05

started drowning in the stigma of borderline.

14:07

Because now the story was publicized not

14:09

by myself in a positive way, but

14:11

by the police in my city in

14:14

a negative way. And I started telling

14:16

myself, you don't deserve to be a

14:18

therapist, you're experiencing these symptoms, and

14:20

I hadn't even done anything. Nothing

14:22

had happened to me that evening,

14:24

but my response to it was

14:27

so extreme and overwhelming that I

14:29

thought I'm not allowed to be

14:31

a mental health professional.

14:33

For six months, I fell back into

14:35

all of my old behaviors, substance use,

14:38

aggression, anxiety, and isolation. And at the

14:40

end of that six months, I realized,

14:42

what in the world am I doing?

14:44

I have so many years of education

14:47

and experience and know that this is

14:49

a healing and I know that this

14:51

disorder can be healed and that I

14:54

deserve to be in this field. So

14:56

what was my truth? in fall of

14:58

2019. It was, I have a degree

15:00

and a license to treat people in

15:03

therapy and I am a human being

15:05

with a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder

15:07

and that is my truth and that is

15:09

okay. And so I took the, so

15:11

I told my husband, I want to go

15:13

on social media, I want to share

15:15

this with people and I want to tell

15:18

them that healing from this is possible. And

15:20

he said, you should name yourself the

15:22

truth doctor. And I said, why? And he

15:24

said, because the word doctor means to

15:26

heal and to heal and to teach. and

15:29

you can take your truth and heal

15:31

and teach people through that. I said, okay,

15:33

so we started a social media platform,

15:35

but then we also moved back home

15:37

to our home, then we also

15:39

moved back home to Orange County because

15:42

we had our son. There were

15:44

legal issues. We were in Santa Barbara.

15:46

Okay. Yeah, we were in Santa Barbara where

15:48

we lived for 10 years for

15:51

college. So we moved back home,

15:53

we're dealing with the aftermath of this

15:55

really extreme trauma that had happened, we

15:57

sold our treatment center because I needed

15:59

it. a break. But what we

16:01

did over those two years was

16:04

we really came together to figure

16:06

out how did this happen, what

16:08

is still remaining underneath our relationship,

16:11

all of these emotions and this

16:13

pain that ended up surfacing that

16:15

evening. and we worked through it.

16:17

And now, you know, skipping through

16:20

five years, we have platforms with

16:22

millions of people. He helped me

16:24

write this book that we're talking

16:27

about today. We are reaching 20

16:29

years in our relationship are better

16:32

than we've ever been and recently

16:34

had a daughter. It's such

16:36

a beautiful story. What? I mean,

16:38

it does, you asked me earlier who

16:40

my... who my listeners mainly are,

16:42

and we talked about spirituality, but

16:45

in some ways, in reading your

16:47

story and then hearing you tell

16:50

it, it feels like, and knowing

16:52

what I know about people who

16:54

have been diagnosed with borderline personality

16:57

disorder and how difficult it is

16:59

for them to remain in relationships,

17:02

he does feel like he was

17:04

an angel who's like, I am

17:06

just gonna hold steadfast, even when

17:09

things get tough. You know, it

17:11

makes me think like often

17:13

people with your diagnosis end

17:16

up destroying repeatedly good relationships

17:18

or they don't even have

17:20

good relationships. They're just one

17:22

bad relationship after another. How

17:24

do you understand how this steadiness

17:26

has, I mean, your, your forward

17:29

in the book or your, I

17:31

always love to read the acknowledgments

17:33

and who people think and who they,

17:35

because I just think it's telling about

17:37

what their journey has been. Like,

17:39

what do you attribute

17:41

that to? Honestly, I

17:44

still ask him today what

17:46

it was. And when we really

17:48

both sit down and think

17:50

about it, I think it has

17:52

to do with the fact that

17:55

we met at 14 years old,

17:57

that we didn't meet at 20.

18:00

and I had to explain,

18:02

I promise you, like, I'm a

18:04

good person. Like, I know, like,

18:06

it makes me so emotional, you

18:09

know, like, I love people and

18:11

I just feel so much and

18:13

I just don't know how to

18:16

handle it. He saw how I

18:18

was raised and he saw the

18:21

environment in the home that I

18:23

grew up in and he saw

18:25

the consequences of what I experienced,

18:28

not just the consequences of what

18:30

I made others experience. And he

18:33

allowed me to be the person that

18:35

I was and not ever give up

18:37

on me. And really, I don't

18:40

know what it is about this

18:42

man, but there is something about

18:44

him that I mean, he just

18:46

really loves me. And

18:49

he really has, and

18:51

he has changed my

18:53

definition of love, because

18:55

it is a conscious

18:57

love. He's so aware of

18:59

how we work as humans

19:02

and how I work as

19:04

a human, and he

19:06

accepts that wholeheartedly.

19:08

And you talk in

19:11

the book about humans

19:13

first. Yes. What does

19:15

that mean and how does that

19:17

show up in your work in

19:20

this book in our own

19:22

awareness of our own unconscious?

19:24

Yeah. So I have a tattoo that

19:26

is that says human first

19:29

and I created it in

19:31

2020 and many therapists around

19:33

the world have actually gotten

19:35

the tattoo when I when

19:37

I was in. You're like

19:39

Mel Robbins. Let them. Yeah.

19:41

In the auction for this

19:43

book, actually, one of the

19:45

editors had the tattoo, not

19:47

the editor I went with,

19:49

but I was so surprised.

19:51

It was incredible. So the

19:53

purpose of human first was

19:56

really what I, it's what I had to

19:58

come to terms with that fall of. which

20:00

was like, I'm, yes, I'm a therapist, but

20:02

I'm not a therapist first. Yes, I'm a

20:04

mom and I'm a wife and I'm a

20:06

sister. All of those things matter, but

20:08

first and foremost, I am a human

20:10

being. And if I can afford myself

20:13

that opportunity and afford everyone else

20:15

that opportunity to know I am

20:17

an unconscious human that has the

20:19

ability to be conscious. And this

20:21

is how we are all programmed

20:23

and how we all function. And

20:26

if we saw ourselves in the

20:28

world human first, there'd be more

20:30

permission to breathe, more permission to

20:32

understand, to be curious, to be

20:34

connected, because we don't live life

20:36

human first. We live at concept

20:38

first, and that gets us into

20:41

a lot of trouble. Can you expand

20:43

on that a little bit? What

20:45

is concept first? What does human

20:47

first look like in living? And

20:50

what does concept first look like

20:52

in living? Perfect. So concept living

20:54

or concept first living means

20:56

living your life through... Decided

20:58

definitions. I am successful if it

21:01

looks like this. This is the

21:03

right love if it looks like

21:05

this. I'm a mom, therefore I

21:07

have to act like this. This

21:10

is my job. A, B, C,

21:12

on and on. It's, it's solidified

21:14

perspectives. that hinder our ability to

21:17

change, to control, and to grow.

21:19

So that'd be concept first living.

21:21

Human first living is living through

21:23

the understanding that not only do

21:26

we function in conscious and unconscious

21:28

ways, but we have created a

21:30

world mainly from our unconsciousness and

21:33

how important it is to acknowledge

21:35

that it gives grace, permission to

21:37

other people. When you really learn.

21:39

about what it means to be

21:42

a human being and how our

21:44

brain functions and creates reality, we

21:46

get more permission to see other

21:48

people and situations for the way

21:51

that they really are, not the

21:53

way that our brain is perceiving

21:55

them automatically and conceptually. That is

21:58

exactly, that's the definition. in my

22:00

mind of what it means

22:02

to be conscious is being

22:04

able to take the space

22:07

from how I think things

22:09

are and put my own

22:11

projection onto it versus

22:13

the reality of how things

22:16

actually are. Exactly.

22:18

And borderline personality

22:20

disorder is like

22:23

the opposite of

22:25

that understanding. The brain

22:27

has learned a few. key concepts

22:29

and behaviors and perspectives that have

22:32

helped me and other individuals like

22:34

me survive. And it's becoming aware

22:36

of those concepts and how they

22:38

actually function body brain and mind

22:41

in yourself as a human that

22:43

you can then control those things

22:45

and do something about them. And

22:48

this applies to anyone. You don't

22:50

even have to have a disorder.

22:52

Humans have automatic thoughts, feelings,

22:54

and behaviors across the board.

22:56

Let's keep breaking this out

22:59

a little further. So can you,

23:01

let's walk through, you talk

23:03

about your unconscious somatic, cognitive,

23:05

and psychoanalytic experiences. Let's walk

23:08

through like maybe take one

23:10

scenario and can you show

23:12

how each of those is

23:15

illuminated in that one scenario?

23:17

It's been a while since I've talked

23:19

to you about what I'm up to.

23:22

I want to first start by thinking

23:24

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23:26

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23:29

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23:31

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23:36

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23:38

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23:40

values. So head on over to

23:42

my circle group. You can actually

23:45

find the link in the show

23:47

notes below and there's opportunities to

23:49

continue to support the podcast. And

23:51

I have to say your support

23:53

of the podcast is frankly what

23:55

has kept this podcast going over

23:58

time. I have been funding the

24:00

podcast solely by myself. I get

24:02

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So anything that you can give

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24:10

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24:26

over the many, many years. Also,

24:28

there's so many other ways now

24:30

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24:33

I am offering a group course

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24:37

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24:41

There's retreats coming up. There's workshops.

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25:01

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25:03

We all need so much more spirituality

25:05

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25:17

so you never miss an episode.

25:19

Definitely. So the example I like to use

25:21

is walking into a room when you don't

25:23

know what's going to be going on there

25:25

or who is going to be there. So

25:27

you walk into a room and you can

25:30

just take into consideration who you are as

25:32

a person. Are you going to be excited?

25:34

Are you going to be anxious? Just how

25:36

you would typically walk into the room. So

25:38

now imagine yourself walking into that room and

25:41

think, what is going on for your body?

25:43

Do you feel comfortable? Is your heart

25:45

pounding? Are you holding your breath? Do

25:47

you feel your shoulders kind of starting

25:49

to shake? And what does that mean?

25:51

What is the purpose of your body

25:54

reacting like that? So what's going

25:56

on inside your body unconsciously? And

25:58

you might think well... Now I'm

26:00

aware of it because I'm thinking about

26:02

it. That's right. It's still unconscious, but you've

26:04

brought consciousness into it. You are now

26:06

aware of it. The moment you look at

26:09

what time it is, now all of those

26:11

bodily processes have become unconscious and you're conscious

26:13

of the time. So what is going on

26:16

inside of your body? Your somatic unconscious is

26:18

telling you something. What is it? Then

26:20

you walk into the room and at the

26:22

same time that your body is reacting, it's

26:24

also showing people things from the outside. You

26:27

have nonverbal reactions. So this is another way

26:29

that your somatic unconscious is showing. Maybe

26:31

people looked over at you when you

26:33

opened up the door and you made

26:35

this face of being anxious. And so

26:37

now they are perceiving nonverbal, unconscious messages

26:39

from you that you might not even

26:41

know that you're sending. Then the second

26:43

thing would be your cognitive unconscious. So

26:45

you walk in and automatically your brain

26:47

is going to start to judge every

26:49

single face that you see. Are they

26:52

mad at me? Do they like me?

26:54

Are they happy to see me? Are

26:56

they dangerous? Are they neutral? Are they

26:58

a friend? That's just one way. It's

27:00

going to observe people. kind of

27:02

emotionally charge them and then decide

27:04

before you know it what table

27:06

you should sit at, what chair

27:08

you should sit, you should sit

27:10

at because it's trying to put

27:13

you in the most comfortable and

27:15

safe place possible. The last

27:17

aspect of this is... I was

27:19

going to write something down so I

27:21

don't forget it because otherwise I will

27:24

keep going. The last part of

27:26

your unconscious, the last part of

27:28

your three-part unconscious is your psychoanalytic

27:30

unconscious. And this part still involves

27:32

your brain, but it more so

27:34

involves the story that you're telling

27:37

yourself. So the psycho analytic unconscious

27:39

one part of that is that

27:41

we move toward pleasure and away

27:43

from pain and your brain does

27:45

this Automatically, but you think you're

27:48

doing it through telling yourself the

27:50

story So once these body messages

27:52

and once these brain messages all

27:54

come together, they create your mind

27:56

so you opened up the door and

27:58

your mind automatically says, this was a

28:01

bad idea, this looks just like the

28:03

room you were in last week, and

28:05

you did a horrible job when you

28:07

were here last week, and that person

28:09

gave you that face, turn around and

28:12

leave. You've created this story, the psychological

28:14

story, of why you should do something

28:16

or not do something. And all three

28:18

of these things are happening at the

28:20

same time, and each one of them,

28:22

if controlled, could give you a different

28:25

experience during that situation and more control

28:27

during that situation. Well, and I

28:29

think what you're saying is this

28:31

awareness like the other piece of

28:34

this that I think is important

28:36

is This relational piece

28:38

right that that typically

28:40

people who have Maybe Have

28:43

had more tumultuous

28:45

more traumatic early

28:47

childhood experiences are already

28:50

primed to see those situations

28:52

a certain way versus if

28:54

you didn't have that, you might

28:56

still feel those things, but you're

28:58

able to see a little bit

29:01

more of the reality of

29:03

the situation, depending on like

29:05

sort of the level of relational

29:08

trauma or attachment issues you

29:10

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30:06

ads. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it

30:08

definitely matters. But I would

30:10

also argue to say that

30:12

someone who like hasn't had

30:14

early relational childhood trauma, for

30:17

example, may think that there's

30:19

no solution to the fact

30:21

that they just want to

30:23

be able to walk into

30:25

a room and like feel

30:27

totally confident. And so it's

30:29

like. It's going to be harder for

30:31

someone who's experienced that relational trauma, but

30:33

I would say for different reasons, it

30:35

might be equally hard for someone who

30:38

hasn't experienced it, who just simply thinks,

30:40

I just can't change the stories of

30:42

my mind. And it's like, yes, you

30:44

can, because you're a human just like

30:46

this other person that you've

30:49

pathologized and considered to be different than

30:51

you. Right, right, so like a social

30:53

anxiety, I mean, is a diagnosis of

30:55

social anxiety, where it's like, so why

30:57

am I am I responding? in this

30:59

way. And then there's frustration about that.

31:01

I can't change this. Yeah, well, and

31:03

it's, and it's, you know, I

31:06

would say some, you know, some

31:08

clinicians and maybe, you know, pop

31:10

psych articles, for example, might have

31:12

that person that just has social

31:14

anxiety and no early relational trauma

31:16

searching. for early relational trauma to

31:19

explain why they feel like they're

31:21

acting unconsciously when that doesn't necessarily

31:23

have to be the case. And

31:25

I feel like that's that's an

31:27

important part of the book too is

31:29

like it's not just people with

31:32

a disorder who have these ways

31:34

of acting automatically, it's just that

31:36

these automatic ways then become out

31:38

of proportion to adaptive. And I think

31:40

that that's the human first piece,

31:42

right? Like that's how it kind

31:44

of circles back to this notion

31:46

of human first. And certainly in

31:48

therapy, one of the things that I

31:50

like to do for people is normalize

31:52

their experiences because everybody thinks I'm the

31:54

only one that fill in the blank.

31:56

And you know, it's just so, I

31:58

mean, I think. I think maybe you

32:01

have this, I don't want to speak

32:03

for you, but one of the things

32:05

that I think being a therapist has

32:07

certainly helped me, it's like the gift

32:10

of being a therapist, is that my

32:12

unconsciousness, my unconscious thoughts, don't phase me

32:14

in the same way, and they don't

32:16

take hold of me because I have

32:18

the ability to have seen 20 patients

32:21

in a week who are also feeling

32:23

something similar, so I'm like, yeah, welcome

32:25

to being human. Exactly.

32:27

Oh, I love that you

32:29

said that too, because it's,

32:31

that's what I felt, having

32:33

borderline, having substance issues when

32:35

I was younger, and then

32:37

going through 12 years of

32:39

clinical education, I'm like, wait

32:41

a minute. You know, I'm

32:43

not the only one. This

32:45

isn't... unchangeable and more people

32:47

need this information. It should

32:49

not be something that I

32:51

understand or that you understand

32:54

after X amount of clinical

32:56

education. To a degree, we should

32:58

be afforded this enough to where

33:00

every human can pause and say

33:02

what's going on in my body,

33:04

in my brain, and in my

33:06

mind. So where do you think

33:08

in terms, right, in the therapeutic

33:10

space, often we are told like

33:12

be very careful about what you're

33:14

self-disclosing, right? Like there's a lot

33:17

of boundaries that can, that are

33:19

extremely helpful. This is not to

33:21

say you should not have boundaries.

33:23

But I do think there can

33:26

be such a time in a place

33:28

to say, not just like I understand

33:30

what you're going through, but like I

33:32

know. what that feels like or I

33:34

have I mean sometimes my most healing

33:37

moments with people they'll come back years

33:39

later and say like when you said

33:41

X Y and Z I took a

33:44

sabbatical this summer and I really struggled

33:47

with Duke last summer I really struggled

33:49

with it because I didn't know that

33:51

I wanted to leave my clients for

33:53

that long and I was worried about

33:56

you know would they be okay and

33:58

and I had several people tell me

34:00

that me doing that gave them more

34:02

permission to take care of themselves.

34:05

And that wasn't a, I mean

34:07

I didn't disclose anything about why I

34:09

was doing it. I just said I

34:11

needed to take some time and it

34:13

was going to be time for me.

34:16

And it's just interesting to think about

34:18

in the field how that how on

34:20

how showing maybe a little bit of

34:22

ourselves more can help other people

34:24

realize that it's not everything

34:27

isn't so pathological. Definitely,

34:29

yeah, and thank you for sharing

34:31

that because I have worked the

34:34

majority of my career in the

34:36

addiction space and there is a large

34:38

community called Alcoholics Anonymous

34:40

and the thing is

34:42

you think it's anonymous until

34:44

you see your therapist there.

34:47

You think it's anonymous until

34:49

you see your therapist there.

34:51

You think it's anonymous until

34:53

you see your clients there.

34:55

And what I learned working

34:57

in like tech jobs and

34:59

coordinator jobs before becoming a

35:01

therapist in the treatment space

35:04

was that treatment owners, therapists,

35:06

clients, family members, we would

35:08

all be at these anonymous

35:10

meetings together, all talking about

35:12

the truth of our stories

35:14

of the substances that we've

35:16

used and the messed up

35:18

things that have happened and

35:21

there was permission and an

35:23

understanding. that what was happening

35:25

in that room was healing

35:27

for everyone and the concepts

35:29

of therapist and client were

35:31

not really there in that

35:33

room. The therapist must uphold

35:35

those concepts and those boundaries.

35:38

But that is where becoming

35:40

the truth doctor, I had

35:42

a confidence that I can share

35:44

it all because I have had

35:46

10 years of learning how to

35:48

do this already, of being in

35:50

the rooms that aren't anonymous if

35:52

they know who you are, and

35:54

learning how to have people know

35:57

information about me and not bring

35:59

it into. the room, or if they

36:01

bring it into the room, not to

36:03

say the general, well, what is this

36:05

bringing up for you, but to say,

36:07

I don't want to spend the session

36:10

talking about me because ABC, because you're

36:12

paying for it, because this is your

36:14

time, not my time. But I really

36:16

think that, you know, sharing everything that

36:18

I've shared about being unfaithful, about

36:20

being sexually promiscuous, about all of

36:23

the things that I've done in

36:25

my past. The stigma

36:27

is so intense for

36:29

people with substance use

36:31

issues and borderline personality

36:34

disorder and I guess for shame

36:36

and I guess for BPD there are

36:38

a lot less people who are saying

36:41

that they have this issue like

36:43

substance use disorder for example.

36:45

But there's just so few

36:47

people that have the ability

36:50

to both personally and professionally

36:52

understand it, that in a

36:55

similar way as Marsha Linahan,

36:57

I think I would be doing the

36:59

field a disservice by not verbalizing what

37:02

I know to be the experience of

37:04

borderline to help so many people who

37:06

not only have it, but who want

37:08

to treat it and who really... It

37:11

would be very hard for

37:13

people to understand the emotional

37:15

pain of BPD if someone

37:18

like me or Marsha or

37:20

other clinicians who have it

37:22

or educated individuals who don't,

37:25

you know, who maybe aren't

37:27

a clinician, actually explaining it

37:29

in a way where other humans

37:31

can get it, not just from

37:34

the outside from a textbook.

37:36

Yeah, I mean that's so, it's so

37:38

true, so powerful. And I think. where

37:41

we as a profession have to

37:43

be careful, but also want,

37:45

you know, where we really want to

37:47

encourage people to share their stories

37:50

in ways, maybe not with their

37:52

clients in a session, but where

37:54

they can see a little bit

37:56

enough to know, like, it's okay. It's

37:59

really okay. Yeah, like, yeah, like

38:01

you'll be okay, you know,

38:03

and it's so okay, and

38:06

you have the potential to

38:08

heal so much that I

38:10

can be, you know, an

38:13

upcoming psychologist with this disorder

38:15

in a successful relationship who

38:17

have never harmed my children,

38:20

which is a really big

38:22

misconception that happens with BPD,

38:24

and you can too. And

38:26

what an amazing way to

38:29

break so many cycles. Yeah.

38:31

And for other people. It

38:34

doesn't sound like it has.

38:36

It doesn't sound like it

38:38

has. So what was your

38:41

treatment? Like how did you, how

38:43

were you treated? I mean, I

38:45

know you said you were in rehab

38:47

and then you've been

38:50

in Alcoholics Anonymous. Were

38:52

you in traditional therapy?

38:55

Was it? Yeah, so I did. I

38:57

did treatment at 15. I

38:59

did stabilization at 22

39:01

and an outpatient treatment center,

39:03

which was basically CBT-based. But I

39:06

was in school, so I was

39:08

like learned a lot more

39:10

than I was just learning with

39:12

CBT. That was at 22.

39:14

And from then on, I

39:16

really have used. You know, I went

39:19

to school for seven more years

39:21

after my diagnosis to learn about

39:23

myself and as needed I will

39:25

take medication I don't take a

39:27

daily med because I just don't

39:29

need it But I have ERN

39:31

medication as needed medications and really

39:33

it is the practice of going

39:35

inward as you know, you would

39:37

do with a therapist, but I

39:39

can do that on my own.

39:41

And my husband is good at

39:43

checking me, you know, he runs

39:45

these businesses with me, he was

39:47

a psychology major, not that that

39:49

means you can treat people

39:51

with borderline personality disorder, but

39:53

obviously he's pretty good at

39:55

creating another awareness. Yeah, but

39:58

I think really. I

40:01

used a lot of dialectical behavior

40:03

therapy, just not in the therapy

40:06

room on myself, and it was

40:08

a lot of spirituality. The practice

40:10

of Buddhism and the concepts of

40:12

Buddhism have been really, really helpful

40:15

for me. And one of the

40:17

main things, really, there's two parts

40:19

of it. One is I've always

40:21

had this feeling of emptiness for

40:24

as long as I can remember,

40:26

and it is a... It is

40:28

a major criteria for borderline personality

40:30

disorder and Buddhism desires emptiness. And

40:33

I was able to accept that

40:35

part of myself and become and

40:37

normalize that part of myself and

40:39

realize that a lot of people try

40:42

to reach that point. And of

40:44

course, it's easier to have the

40:46

experience of emptiness when you are

40:48

the one actively emptying things, not

40:50

when you feel like you've been

40:53

given something empty. But it was

40:55

the reconceptualization of that feeling of

40:57

emptiness that really changed my life

40:59

as well as the general premise

41:02

of the middle path and just

41:04

being so black and white,

41:06

idealizing and devaluing and it

41:08

was as though I found

41:10

a spiritual practice that was

41:13

made to treat the condition

41:15

of borderline personality disorder and

41:17

in a way it did. Mm-hmm. So the

41:19

second half of your book is...

41:21

models, I guess, I'm

41:23

assuming, after the 12-step model.

41:26

Can you just walk us

41:28

through a bit? And the

41:31

12-step model is a very

41:33

spiritual model. It is. Worry

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42:12

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42:14

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42:19

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Go.acast.com/ads.com/ ads.com/ads. Yes.

42:32

Just a few of the

42:34

ways that we can begin

42:36

to step into becoming more

42:38

conscious in our lives. Yes, so they

42:41

are based on the 12

42:43

steps and they're the general

42:45

premise of the 12

42:47

steps of anonymous groups

42:50

combined with evidence-based practices

42:52

that I know to

42:55

work from various interventions

42:57

like DBT or acceptance

42:59

and commitment therapy. Basically,

43:02

you have to start by admitting that

43:04

you are unconscious, that there are three

43:06

parts of you that are controlling your

43:08

thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. And then you

43:10

have to come to believe that there

43:12

is something you can do about it.

43:15

And that isn't just a, okay, I

43:17

believe it, I'm going to try it.

43:19

It's sitting with it and thinking, like,

43:21

what is going to take this belief

43:23

away from me and make me say, meh,

43:25

this isn't going to work. And then

43:27

it's figuring out and accepting, well, okay,

43:30

I'm out of control and I believe

43:32

I can be in control. And so

43:34

what is the thing that's going to

43:36

help me be in control? And for

43:38

the 12 steps of consciousness, it is

43:40

the fact that you can be conscious.

43:42

And so it's sitting with that. And

43:44

it's conceptualizing or reconceptualizing what it means

43:46

to be an unconscious human that can

43:48

be conscious. And then you go into figuring

43:51

out the work. You really look into yourself.

43:53

You take this flashlight and you look into

43:55

your unconscious and you figure out all the

43:57

parts of you that you want to fix.

44:00

And then you come up with a plan. And

44:02

how each of the three parts

44:04

of your unconscious, somatic, cognitive, and

44:06

psychoanalytic, are contributing to this thing

44:09

that you want to change, always

44:11

being late, yelling at your partner,

44:13

never stopping working, whatever the behavior

44:16

is, you figure out how my

44:18

body brain and mind are affecting

44:20

it. And the best part of the 12

44:22

steps, what I like the most is

44:24

sure, that kind of sounds like therapy

44:26

in the beginning. There's a problem, I

44:28

want to fix the problem, here's the

44:30

solution to the problem, now let me

44:33

work on the problem. The later steps

44:35

require, if you're truly going to admit

44:37

that you have been and are unconscious,

44:39

the shame, the stigma, and the guilt

44:41

is to not only admit it to

44:43

yourself, but to admit it to those

44:45

that you may have harmed. Because if

44:47

we are unconscious and we've been out

44:49

of control, We've likely hurt people and

44:51

as hard as that is to admit

44:53

we need to do something about it

44:56

because if we can't look back because

44:58

of all this pain that we've caused

45:00

then we aren't really in control.

45:02

If we feel only comfortable looking

45:04

one direction then your past isn't

45:06

yours. So there's a process that

45:08

you'll go through to amend the

45:10

unconscious behaviors and consequences of your

45:13

past. And once you get through

45:15

that, which is not easy, you

45:17

have grown more consciously, you have

45:19

admitted your unconscious past and started

45:21

on this path to healing, then

45:23

the final steps really help you

45:25

learn how to continue to learn

45:27

about consciousness, how to share your

45:29

consciousness and conscious growth with other

45:31

people, and how to continue to

45:33

check in with yourself. because as much

45:36

as we can grow as conscious human

45:38

beings, our unconscious will always be more

45:40

powerful because it needs to be. There's

45:43

a car coming at us really fast.

45:45

We really do not want to have

45:47

to think about it. And so our

45:50

unconscious is going to be stronger. And

45:52

that's okay. As long as we continue

45:54

to consciously look back at it and

45:57

curate it how we need to. How do you see...

46:00

I mean, it feels to me

46:02

like when you say unconscious

46:04

to what I also think

46:07

of is like how

46:09

we're just projecting everywhere

46:11

and in the state of

46:13

the world today, how

46:15

much unconsciousness is

46:17

happening and how much

46:19

people are swimming in unconsciousness.

46:22

It's like. It's

46:24

extreme. Yeah, it's extreme. Even in

46:26

this. And I don't, this isn't

46:29

a political, I don't want to

46:31

go political here, but I just want

46:33

to kind of point out and get

46:35

your thoughts on that. No, yeah, I fully agree.

46:38

And not to get political, but

46:40

to bring up. one situation that

46:42

happened is just last week there

46:44

was a meeting that was broadcast

46:46

to the country and there were

46:48

different types of people there. Some

46:50

people in suits, some people in

46:53

like a general track outfit for

46:55

example, and some of the people

46:57

were very conceptually stuck. on the

46:59

fact that someone is disrespectful unless

47:01

they're wearing a suit. And there

47:03

was this huge conversation that took

47:05

place and the whole country blew

47:07

up about it and all I could think

47:10

as the author of Your Unconscious is showing

47:12

is I wonder if this person understands how

47:14

much a suit. means to them and

47:16

this perspective that they must have

47:18

about being in a suit. And

47:20

then there was like language barriers

47:22

between suit and the word costume

47:24

and then that made people. And

47:27

that's a concept too, the definitions

47:29

of words. And so I guess

47:31

something that's important to share is

47:33

for anyone who ends up reading,

47:35

your unconscious is showing or here's

47:37

this conversation or really starts to

47:39

be able to see the unconsciousness

47:41

of the world we have created.

47:43

It's difficult to accept. Once

47:45

you see it showing, you see it

47:47

everywhere. And there are people in the world

47:49

doing something about it. Consciousness

47:51

is continuing to grow. People

47:54

can be in control and

47:56

make better choices. And it

47:58

starts by being able to

48:00

see a... conversations such as

48:02

the one that I just

48:04

described and instead of falling

48:07

into the conceptual trap, pausing

48:09

and seeing what is happening,

48:11

taking yourself out of it

48:14

and then being able to

48:16

make a conscious human decision.

48:18

That is perfectly laid

48:20

out for I think so much of

48:23

what is going on right now. And

48:25

it's hard because everybody has

48:27

their, I hate the word

48:29

triggers, but triggers, right? Everybody

48:31

has their buttons that got

48:33

pushed with whatever it is,

48:35

and then they are off

48:37

to the races with their unconsciousness.

48:40

Yeah. And it's like there is

48:42

no stopping people. Like they have

48:44

just taken off and no amount

48:47

of like pulling back on the

48:49

reins is gonna stop it. But

48:51

it just feels like, I

48:54

mean, it feels to me

48:56

like that's a lot of

48:58

what's happening right now is

49:00

just like projection of unconscious

49:02

all over the place. Everywhere. Yeah,

49:04

all over. I agree with you.

49:07

So your book, I think,

49:09

could not come at a

49:11

more perfect time because we

49:13

all have to be looking

49:16

at our unconscious and where

49:18

it's showing and how we

49:20

can be more conscious in

49:22

our lives. We are collectively

49:24

interacting in ways that are

49:27

much healthier than the ways

49:29

that we've been programmed

49:32

to interact or have

49:35

been interacting based

49:37

on everything that we've

49:39

discussed today. Agreed.

49:42

Well, Dr. Courtney. Thank you.

49:44

You have so many platforms.

49:46

Where can people find you

49:48

to find out more about

49:50

your work and this exciting,

49:52

exciting book that is a

49:54

must read? It's got so

49:56

many great exercises in it.

49:58

I was reading. through it and

50:00

I'm like this is awesome this is

50:03

fantastic this is dead on this is

50:05

great and it's great to see someone

50:07

who's thinking about like I said at

50:09

the beginning thinking about things in this

50:11

way thank you thank you so much

50:13

this has been such a great interview

50:16

If you would like to learn more

50:18

about me, you can go to my

50:20

website at the Truth Doctor.com or you

50:22

can find me on Instagram, Tiktok, or

50:25

YouTube at the Period Truth, Period Doctor.

50:27

And if you're interested in the book,

50:29

then the book has its own Instagram

50:31

as well, which is more unconscious is

50:34

showing. And from there, we will be

50:36

building a community of everyone who is

50:38

going through the 12 steps to meet

50:41

one another and support one another.

50:43

That's great. Well, thank you

50:45

so much for your time and

50:47

for bringing this conscious awareness into

50:49

the world. It's so critical right

50:51

now. So thank you. Thank you

50:54

so much. Like what you heard

50:56

today and want to hear more,

50:58

wondering what comes next

51:00

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51:03

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