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It is me, Michelle, your co-host,

1:43

and I am so grateful that

1:45

you are back with us for

1:47

another week talking about life's most

1:49

interesting and meaningful topics. This

1:51

week, in honor of one of

1:54

mine and my mom's favorite authors,

1:56

Melody Beatty, and the recent news

1:58

of her passing, we wanted to

2:01

to re-share an episode that we

2:03

recorded back in 2023 highlighting our

2:05

favorite book of hers, codependent no

2:07

more, and the lessons that we've

2:10

learned from her book, and just

2:12

the power of learning all about

2:14

codependency and releasing codependent tendencies and

2:16

habits and behaviors. Melody Beaty's work

2:19

has touched both of us deeply.

2:21

I've taken so much inspiration from

2:23

her and her words. and my

2:25

mom has as well. And so

2:28

we wanted to take this week's

2:30

episode to honor her work and

2:32

to offer up gratitude for the

2:34

lessons that we learned from her.

2:37

My mom wanted me to share

2:39

this quote of hers that is

2:41

one of her favorites before we

2:44

dive into the episode and it

2:46

goes, worrying about people and problems

2:48

doesn't help. It doesn't solve problems.

2:50

It doesn't help other people and

2:53

it doesn't help us. It is

2:55

wasted energy. So thanks so much

2:57

for listening and tuning in and

2:59

we will chat with you next

3:02

week This episode has me Literally

3:04

if you were in the living

3:06

room with us right now I

3:08

would be standing on the sofa

3:10

jumping up and down on the

3:12

sofa like Tom Cruise. Yes. Oh

3:15

my gosh. Yes So like because

3:17

I We're gonna do a whole

3:19

episode probably the next episode we

3:21

do but we're gonna do a

3:23

whole episode on reading and the

3:25

books that Michelle and I love

3:28

the most and that have taught

3:30

us the most and shaped our

3:32

lives the most. But this particular

3:34

topic that we're going to talk

3:36

about today, literally, I would have

3:39

to say has been the foundation

3:41

of my bulimia recovery, but has

3:43

also been the foundation of my

3:45

life. Whenever I'm at a loss

3:47

or whenever I'm in trouble or

3:49

when I don't mean trouble that

3:52

ooh, did something to somebody, but

3:54

I just mean stuck or like,

3:56

oh my gosh, what what do

3:58

I do here? Whenever I think

4:00

about anything, especially if it has

4:02

to do with relationships or difficulties,

4:05

extreme difficulties in life. This is

4:07

the book that I turned to.

4:09

This is the author that I

4:11

turned to and I am really

4:13

excited to have a conversation about

4:15

this today. Well it's funny that

4:18

we had not yet talked about

4:20

this because like you said this

4:22

is really the this is one

4:24

of your favorite topics. The book

4:26

that we're going to talk about

4:28

is like a book that you

4:31

probably have 20 copies of in

4:33

your house that you're just constantly

4:35

giving to people. I probably have

4:37

five copies at least in my

4:39

house. This is a topic you

4:41

and I have talked about in

4:44

our own lives. The concepts of

4:46

this topic have really helped me

4:48

to grow and evolve into like

4:50

go of bad relationships, not bad

4:52

toxic relationships or get out of

4:54

romantic relationships and to just really

4:57

see where I'm contributing to difficult

4:59

relationships. It's just like it's wild

5:01

to me that we haven't talked

5:03

about it yet. And it came

5:05

up to me, and I'm like,

5:08

when you talk about it. And

5:10

especially coming off of our conversation

5:12

last week about friendships and relationships

5:14

and them coming and going and

5:16

ending, it's like, this is a

5:18

huge piece of all of it.

5:21

Oh, because I think this shines

5:23

the light on our part. You

5:25

just said it's a huge piece

5:27

because it's our piece. It's how

5:29

we interact. It's how we show

5:31

up. It's what's happening inside of

5:34

us that's driving us to form

5:36

the relationship that we're in and

5:38

to form the relationship that we

5:40

have with ourselves and to actually

5:42

dictate how we're showing up in

5:44

the world, actually. And I know

5:47

we've talked about this book several

5:49

times throughout different episodes this past

5:51

year, but we've never really highlighted

5:53

the book, so I'm excited. All

5:55

right, all right, so we're gonna

5:57

talk about codependency. Dada-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a by Melody

6:00

Beatty. Okay, so that's the book,

6:02

obviously. She revolutionized how we show

6:04

up for relationships in my mind.

6:06

I actually remember when I was

6:08

going through the breakup that I

6:10

allude to all the time on

6:13

the show, I have a vivid

6:15

memory of like sitting in my

6:17

bathtub being like so unwell and

6:19

depressed and sad and just blah

6:21

and reading that book and just

6:23

like help me. figure out my

6:26

life. And like, as I was

6:28

reading it, I'm like, okay, this

6:30

makes sense. I understand. It sucks,

6:32

but I understand. And just her

6:34

words and this concept of codependency,

6:37

like, you know, you're like, oh,

6:39

you're, I don't know, do people

6:41

call each other? You said you

6:43

don't feel like you hear this

6:45

term a lot anymore. I don't

6:47

feel like I hear it a

6:50

lot. And I really think that

6:52

it's time for it to be

6:54

brought back into the mainstream of

6:56

relationships. Probably because I

6:58

think it's been the number one

7:00

book that has changed my life

7:02

when it comes to relationships with

7:04

myself and relationships with others, relationships

7:06

with the world, relationships with work,

7:08

relationships with nature, just relationships. It

7:10

is so telling of how we

7:13

show up and really basically what

7:15

it is that... You know, I

7:17

say how we show up, but

7:19

what are we embodying when we

7:21

show up? Like, what do we

7:23

think? What do we feel? What

7:25

is our motive? It's like, for

7:27

me, it encompasses everything. So I

7:29

really want to revolutionize, revolutional. Revolutionize?

7:31

Is that a word? Revolutionize? Revolutionize?

7:33

I don't know. I'm too excited,

7:35

like I'm over the moon. Make

7:37

up your own word. I'm over

7:39

the moon about this book, but

7:41

I want to, I really want

7:43

people to be aware of this

7:45

because for me it did two

7:47

things. Not only is it the

7:49

foundation that I've relied upon since

7:51

1984, so that would be almost

7:54

what, almost 40 years? Don't say

7:56

that please so not only did

7:58

it math Not only did it

8:00

I just say that because that

8:02

I know I know not only

8:04

did it do that But I

8:06

also feel that the age button

8:08

and me not only did it

8:10

do that for me But the

8:12

I think it even I don't

8:14

want to say even bigger thing

8:16

but an equally substantial thing that

8:18

it did for me is it

8:20

made me feel better It gave

8:22

words and meaning to what I

8:24

was feeling and doing and doing

8:26

And so to have Melody Beatty

8:28

talk about this and her own

8:30

relationships and her own experiences, which

8:32

I love how vulnerable she was

8:34

in this book and is to

8:37

this day with her work, it

8:39

made me feel not alone. It

8:41

made me feel like, wow, I'm

8:43

not the only one. Well, there's

8:45

a name for what I'm doing.

8:47

There's a way that I could

8:49

actually transform all of this. I

8:51

don't have to be this way.

8:53

I actually have a choice and

8:55

there's another path for me. All

8:57

those light bulbs went off for

8:59

me when I read the book.

9:01

Now just to remember, I read

9:03

the book. I just want to

9:05

make sure if you haven't listened

9:07

to other episodes, please go back.

9:09

You know, I went into treatment

9:11

for bulimia when I was 28

9:13

years old. So when I got

9:15

out of treatment, this was one

9:17

of the first books that I

9:20

read. So it does seem like

9:22

this concept is used a lot

9:24

in... treatment and recovery from addiction,

9:26

or alanon, which I think is

9:28

how I knew the concept. You

9:30

told me about it, and then

9:32

I read the book. So maybe,

9:34

I don't know. And I'm going

9:36

to give a plug for the

9:38

book here. Every therapist should be

9:40

using it, because if you're going

9:42

into therapy, there is two things

9:44

happening. You have relationship issues with

9:46

other people, or you have a

9:48

relationship issues with yourself. It's relationship.

9:50

Everything is relationships. So I think

9:52

any therapist. would be served greatly

9:54

and their clients would be served

9:56

well with this book. All right.

9:58

So codependency, according to psychology, today

10:00

is a dysfunctional relationship dynamic where

10:03

one person assumes the role

10:05

of the giver, sacrificing their

10:07

own needs and well-being for

10:09

the sake of the taker.

10:11

The bonding question doesn't have

10:13

to be romantic. It can

10:16

occur just as easily between

10:18

parent and child friends and

10:20

family members. Oh, hello. The

10:22

term codependency first appeared in

10:24

substance abuse circles to describe

10:26

a lopsided relationship that had

10:28

been consumed and controlled by

10:31

one person's addiction, but of

10:33

course it grew in popularity

10:35

and became shorthand for any

10:37

enabling relationship. Codependency is

10:39

not a clinical or

10:41

diagnosis or personality disorder,

10:44

but I guess there's some debate in

10:46

controversy amongst it, but it's

10:48

a relationship pattern. Yeah,

10:52

just it's a background. It's a better.

10:54

It's what I said. It's a it

10:56

gives name to what we're doing It

10:58

gives name to when we want to

11:00

put someone else's happiness and best interest

11:03

above our own You know it gives

11:05

name to being okay if we're if

11:07

someone abuses us Just because then

11:09

later they say I'm sorry. I

11:11

love you like it gives name

11:13

to everything that some of us

11:15

many of us experience experience in

11:17

life. So No, it's not a diagnosis, but

11:20

for me it was like wow, I'm doing

11:22

all of that And it makes sense

11:24

that this is what I am I'm

11:26

being codependent Well, what's interesting

11:29

and we can link to this

11:31

article by psychology today if you

11:33

want to read more about the

11:35

clinical aspects of it, but Like we

11:37

talked about in the episode last week,

11:39

you know, what how do we view? relationships

11:42

and what makes them healthy

11:44

and what makes them? strong or

11:46

whatever the The things that we

11:49

want in relationship might be

11:51

It's an equal exchange. We

11:53

both show up with that

11:56

grace space and understanding You

11:58

know you show up for me. I up

12:00

for you, we communicate. But that's

12:02

not the case when you're in

12:04

a co -dependent relationship. It's lopsided. It's

12:06

lopsided. And I think what what

12:08

I realized when I first read

12:10

this book and heard about this

12:12

term co -dependency is that I

12:14

was fully reliant, fully, fully, imagine

12:17

this, fully reliant on the actions,

12:19

the beliefs, the opinions, even the

12:21

identity of another person. So what

12:23

it said to me when I

12:25

got out of treatment was, Barb,

12:27

it is so vital that you

12:29

find out who you are. Like

12:31

you don't even know who you

12:33

are. And I think so many

12:35

of us, I mean, that is

12:37

the million dollar question in life.

12:39

Who am I? Why am I

12:42

here? That is the beautiful question

12:44

of, of, you know, understanding, you

12:46

know, who we are, what we

12:48

want in life. But let's just

12:50

keep it simple here that who

12:52

am I? Like, what matters to

12:54

me? Or what actions would I

12:56

want to take? What do I

12:58

actually believe? What do

13:00

I think? What do

13:03

I identify as? You

13:06

know, who it's just so,

13:08

it's so, you can, I hope

13:10

you can hear it in

13:12

my voice and my energy. Like

13:14

I am always so beautifully

13:16

amazed that I didn't know any

13:18

of that. Or

13:21

if I thought that I knew what I

13:23

believed, I would

13:25

bypass it to make someone else

13:27

happy. Oh,

13:29

okay. I don't really believe what you're saying. I

13:31

don't really like what you're saying, but it's okay

13:33

because I want you to be happy. Or I

13:35

want you to be right. Or I want you

13:37

to be my friend. So

13:40

it's really, really, really, it's

13:43

just so, it's just, I don't even

13:45

have the words. It's just that important. And

13:49

a codependent person

13:51

is, I'm going to

13:54

use these words

13:56

again, is fully, is

13:58

someone who is

14:00

fully reliant, reliant. and other

14:03

people's actions and beliefs and opinions, and

14:05

for our own identity. So when I

14:07

went to a retreat, I don't

14:10

know, 15 years ago with one

14:12

of my favorite teachers, he said,

14:14

he went through this whole talk,

14:16

and at the end, he said,

14:18

listen, no one ever has the

14:20

power to name who you are. That

14:23

is your right. You are the one

14:25

that can name who you are. And

14:27

I just started crying, I remember thinking,

14:29

wow, it just tied me right back

14:32

to this book for this idea, who

14:34

I am matters so much, why would

14:36

I ever put that power in

14:38

someone else's hands? So if you're

14:40

at all wondering if you're in

14:43

a codependent relationship or you

14:45

are codependent with life or

14:47

nature or work or whatever it is,

14:49

just think about it. Yeah, I mean,

14:52

I mean, it's interesting. No one and

14:54

nothing has the power to name who

14:56

you are. That is your right. So

14:58

owning your own greatness and owning

15:00

your own power is crucial, I

15:02

think, in living the life that

15:05

we came here to live and

15:07

being happy and successful and being

15:09

well-rounded in the life that we

15:11

want to live and feeling grounded

15:14

and safe. I mean, we can't be

15:16

safe if other people have the key

15:18

to our lives. How does that ever

15:20

make us safe? safety

15:23

comes from knowing you have everything

15:25

that you need within you to

15:27

handle whatever life throws your way. Yeah,

15:30

and I think what's interesting for a

15:32

lot of us is that maybe we

15:34

get down the road in a

15:36

relationship and it takes us a

15:38

while to kind of come to

15:41

the realization that we're in a

15:43

codependent relationship or that we're acting

15:45

codependent on somebody, at least for

15:47

me in my experience,

15:50

in my experience, you know.

15:52

And it's hard because one of

15:54

my biggest examples

15:56

of this is when I was

15:58

in my 20s and a... romantic

16:01

relationship and I think perhaps

16:03

I didn't know any better

16:05

but for me my whole

16:08

persona like you said who

16:10

am I I had no

16:13

concept of that because I

16:15

was so overly invested in

16:18

maintaining this relationship that I

16:20

let all aspects of myself

16:23

go to the side and

16:25

I did whatever I felt

16:27

like it took to make

16:30

that person happy. And I

16:32

was miserable. And I think

16:35

the other person in the

16:37

relationship was miserable. But it

16:40

was like this weird dynamic

16:42

that you keep going to

16:45

go. And what's interesting about

16:47

it is just nobody's happy

16:50

in a codependent relationship. Nobody

16:52

wants the other person to

16:54

go. In a healthy relationship.

16:58

The other person does not

17:00

want you to give up

17:02

your entire sense of self

17:04

to maintain a relationship. It's,

17:06

you know, two whole people coming

17:08

together, not a shell of

17:10

one person, like encapsulating another person.

17:12

I think it's totally impossible

17:14

to give up yourself and live

17:17

with any sense of... freedom or

17:19

happiness or caring. It's just

17:21

not possible. We can give of

17:24

ourselves, but we can't give

17:26

ourselves up. And I hope this

17:28

makes sense to everyone listening,

17:30

because I really spent a lifetime

17:32

sorting this out, because I gave

17:35

myself up. I totally thought

17:37

that all of other people's needs

17:39

had to come before mine.

17:41

I thought that I couldn't live

17:44

without certain people that my

17:46

life would be over if certain

17:48

people weren't in it. I mean,

17:51

my happiness depended on if

17:53

you were happy. And if you

17:55

weren't happy, then... And I

17:57

was, I mean, it's just that

17:59

that's what codependency means. Like you

18:02

aren't your own self. We

18:04

are not meant to be immeshed

18:06

with other people. We're meant

18:08

to be our own selves. And

18:11

then we come together as

18:13

two complete selves. That's why I

18:15

really, really, really despise that. Jerry

18:17

McGuire. You complete me. Other

18:19

people cannot complete us. They can

18:22

add to our happiness. They

18:24

can add to our success. They

18:26

can add to. But if we

18:29

need something from the outside

18:31

world to complete us in order

18:33

to be happy, successful, loving,

18:35

caring, it can never work. Because

18:38

the outside world changes every

18:40

single moment in every single minute

18:42

of every single day. So I

18:44

think not being grounded in

18:46

your own sense of self with

18:49

the capital S. is a

18:51

disaster. It can't work. It will

18:53

lead to unhappiness, discomfort, being

18:55

unsatisfied, constantly searching. And I think

18:58

we are searching. I mean, we're

19:00

always learning and growing and

19:02

becoming, but I just, I really

19:04

feel strongly, and I hope

19:06

you can hear this in my

19:09

energy. I think they can. I

19:11

just feel so strongly that

19:13

we are meant to be an

19:16

independent person. coming together in

19:18

a relationship with another independent person.

19:20

No one can be fully

19:22

reliant on another person. It cannot

19:25

work. So if you're thinking that

19:27

and if you find yourself

19:29

feeling that, it's really important just

19:31

to be okay that you're

19:33

normal. I would say probably most

19:36

of the people on the planet

19:38

are that way. Rarely do

19:40

you find someone who understands that

19:43

I have to be independent.

19:45

And then I can be interdependent

19:47

with another person. You know,

19:49

and everyone in the world loved

19:51

that You Complete Me, that line

19:54

in the Jerry McGuire movie,

19:56

and it just can't be. So

19:58

I think let yourself off

20:00

the hook, give yourself blessings and

20:03

grace, as you always say, Michelle.

20:05

in some space and just

20:07

kind of think about this for

20:10

a minute and really just

20:12

think about I think start to

20:14

contemplate over the next week

20:16

to month year lifetime you know

20:18

what do I need who am

20:21

I and how do I

20:23

want to show up and and

20:25

I've been using this word

20:27

shape shift a lot I'm not

20:30

sure how this came into

20:32

my vocabulary lately because I used

20:34

to say it you used to

20:36

say it a lot like

20:38

don't shape shift be who you

20:41

are in the present moment

20:43

exactly how you are. Okay, that

20:45

was a lot. I know, I

20:48

know. It was good, but

20:50

now let's dissect it. So I

20:52

wanted to say that this

20:54

ties into a lot of what

20:57

we talked about in last

20:59

week's episode of relationships because of

21:01

that concept of loyalty or, you

21:03

know, long-standing relationships doing whatever

21:05

it takes to maintain it or

21:08

family you know blood is

21:10

thicker than I think that phrase

21:12

blood is thicker than water leads

21:15

us into codependent behaviors you

21:17

know accepting anything because of their

21:19

family and I know at

21:21

least for me in my relationships

21:23

or this particular relationship that

21:26

I was talking about I thought

21:28

that like a good girlfriend quote

21:30

unquote, whatever that means, was

21:32

just loyal and loving and willing

21:35

to do whatever it took

21:37

to make the relationship work. And

21:39

so I viewed my behaviors

21:41

as like good. Like, oh, I'm

21:44

just doing what I need to

21:46

do to maintain this. And

21:48

because I had all of those

21:50

beliefs and notions instilled inside

21:52

of me. And really it took

21:55

reading the book codependent no more

21:57

to kind of break down

21:59

some of those beliefs. and preconceived

22:02

notions and just really be

22:04

able to kind of zoom out

22:06

of my own life to

22:08

see that being quote-unquote

22:10

good in a relationship

22:12

is being yourself and

22:15

not trying to force something

22:17

or make something happen

22:19

the way that you think

22:21

that it should but just

22:23

showing up in that way that's

22:26

authentic to you in a

22:28

respectful way. But the dynamic

22:31

is so different it's it

22:33

changes everything You

22:35

just said the quote of

22:37

the episode You were doing in

22:39

the relationship what you

22:41

thought you needed to do to

22:44

doing what you thought you needed

22:46

to do you were doing the

22:48

good thing you were doing the

22:50

right thing you were doing what

22:52

you what was expected of

22:55

you what you thought you

22:57

needed to do so I

22:59

think Back in that period

23:01

of time, I was in

23:03

this relationship.

23:06

Was I happy

23:08

sometimes? Fully? No.

23:10

Was it a healthy

23:12

relationship? No. But my

23:14

own sense of self-worth

23:17

was clearly very

23:20

lacking. So I didn't

23:22

think that. For me, the

23:25

idea of ending that relationship was

23:27

not even on the table. It

23:29

wasn't possible because this relationship

23:32

can't end. What would I do? Where would

23:34

I go? Who would I find next?

23:37

What would that mean about my life?

23:39

What would that make me if this

23:41

relationship didn't work? So before even thinking

23:43

about the other person, those were all

23:46

of the things going through my head

23:48

about this romantic relationship. Thinking about all

23:50

of that I had to put everything

23:53

else aside like if I didn't like

23:55

something in the relationship or if there

23:57

was a dynamic that didn't make me

24:00

feel good or if there were

24:02

social patterns that I didn't like

24:04

or just things that weren't aligned

24:06

with who I am or what

24:09

I wanted, I put all of

24:11

that aside to keep the relationship

24:13

going because there was in my

24:15

mind there was no other option.

24:18

Like I have to keep it

24:20

going because what else is there

24:22

for me? It was like in

24:24

my mind there was nothing else

24:27

out there that I could do

24:29

or have or be. It was

24:31

like that or nothing, which is

24:33

so wild. It's that black and

24:36

white thinking where life is really

24:38

in the gray. But that's where

24:40

it cut me stuck and created

24:42

that codependent pattern because there was

24:45

no leaving it. It was just

24:47

making something toxic, maybe a little

24:49

less toxic, by making it work.

24:51

And I think what you just

24:54

said equals codependency, but I don't

24:56

even know if you even identified

24:58

it as being toxic at the

25:00

time. It's only been passed. I

25:03

mean, because I think what, to

25:05

go to the extremes that you

25:07

just talked about, toxic, but I

25:10

can change it, I can fix

25:12

it. To go to the extremes

25:14

that you just talked about means

25:16

that you were participating in a

25:19

relationship, in things, many, that went

25:21

against your best interest, that... you

25:23

know, ignored your intuition. You went

25:25

against everything that you knew that

25:28

you wanted and it kind of

25:30

corrupted or co-opted what you thought

25:32

you wanted. And so you feel

25:34

stuck and you feel trapped. And

25:37

you basically lost yourself. Because you

25:39

have in things, many, many things

25:41

that went against your best interest.

25:43

That you know. ignored your intuition.

25:46

You went against everything that you

25:48

knew that you wanted and it

25:50

kind of of corrupted or co-opted

25:52

what you thought you wanted and

25:55

so you feel stuck and you

25:57

feel trapped and you basically lost

25:59

yourself because you had no yourself

26:01

was so tied up in all

26:04

of this and I got to

26:06

do this I can't leave I

26:08

can't we're engaged in a relationship

26:11

in things many many things that

26:13

went against your best interest that

26:15

you know ignored your intuition you

26:17

went against everything that you knew

26:20

that you wanted and it kind

26:22

of corrupted or co-opted what you

26:24

thought you wanted and so you

26:26

feel stuck and you feel trapped

26:29

and you basically lost yourself because

26:31

you had no yourself was so

26:33

tied up in all of this

26:35

and I got to do this

26:38

I can't leave I can't change

26:40

it I can't all the things

26:42

but I think when you just

26:44

said what you said was really

26:47

really telling there was a little

26:49

piece of you that thought ultimately

26:51

it might change. Like if I

26:53

just do all the things that

26:56

I need to do make him

26:58

happy whatever it is It'll eventually

27:00

change, but I think the key

27:03

to relationships that are codependent the

27:05

key to everyone listening right now

27:07

the idea of that You lose

27:09

yourself your sense of identity your

27:12

desires There's a there's such a

27:14

blurred line to even if you're

27:16

happy or not And you think

27:18

there's no kind of boundaries because

27:21

there is no sense of a

27:23

boundary. So I think it's people

27:25

pleasing at the most extreme level

27:27

possible. So it's really interesting as

27:30

we look at this and please

27:32

don't judge yourself if you feel

27:34

like you're falling into this category

27:36

because I'm telling you, many, many,

27:39

many people are in this category.

27:41

It's so hard to actually identify

27:43

it because we're so used to

27:45

it. Well, we think especially when

27:48

we're younger, we think it's a

27:50

phase. Like I thought, you know,

27:52

this is a difficult time, we

27:54

have different interests. We're still young.

27:57

We're growing and evolving. And at

27:59

some point, it'll be OK. Things

28:01

would be better. I just have

28:04

to get through the bad parts.

28:06

But yes, that happens to young

28:08

people. It happens to middle-aged people.

28:10

OK. It's speaking from my own

28:13

experience of what people in my

28:15

age range at that time thought.

28:17

I understand it. And what I

28:19

want to say is I think

28:22

it progresses to every age. Yes,

28:24

it does. So I think it'd

28:26

be good to just maybe highlight

28:28

what are some of the what

28:31

are some of the signs if

28:33

you if you think you are

28:35

codependent because I feel like it's

28:37

so black it's so it needs

28:40

to be it needs to be

28:42

a little bit more black and

28:44

white it needs to be more

28:46

defined for us to really talk

28:49

about different signals as to whether

28:51

you think you might be codependent.

28:53

It was unmistakable what I needed

28:55

to do to get out of

28:58

a relationship where I actually lost

29:00

myself So we're gonna get into

29:02

it, but before that let's take

29:05

a break And we're back and

29:07

not ease and that this is

29:09

easy to figure out how to

29:11

how to make a change or

29:14

how to do things differently But

29:16

an ease like oh gosh, but

29:18

I said earlier in the episode

29:20

that it's Like there's really nothing

29:23

wrong with me that can't be

29:25

tweaked and that can't be Looked

29:27

at in terms of changing my

29:29

behaviors And really what I love

29:32

the most about it was it

29:34

deepened my relationship with myself and

29:36

I started to get an understanding

29:38

of what I wanted and what

29:41

I needed and who I am

29:43

and Yeah, it was really the

29:45

beginning. I guess, you know, we

29:47

talked so much about the relationship

29:50

that you have with yourself is

29:52

the most important relationship you'll ever

29:54

have in life. It really was

29:56

the beginning 1985, 1984, late 84,

29:59

was real. beginning of 85 was

30:01

really the beginning of the

30:03

relationship that I have with myself

30:06

today. It was that unfolding

30:08

of that and really

30:10

understanding the importance of it.

30:12

And if nothing else too, it's

30:14

breaking down what you think is

30:16

what a relationship should look

30:18

like because of what society

30:20

has told us and starting

30:22

to formulate your own ideas

30:24

of what's healthy and what's...

30:27

healthy for you or aligned for you

30:29

and not what you think that you

30:31

have to do. Let me give you

30:34

an example really fast Michelle before we

30:36

I just had this happen to me

30:38

in the past month I was in

30:40

a really difficult discussion with someone

30:42

and we have a working relationship and

30:44

at the end of it I said

30:46

you know what I said I'm not really

30:49

happy with the outcomes of all of

30:51

this and how this is all unfolding

30:53

I said I'm really bothered by some

30:55

of it I said I think I

30:57

need to digest some of this so

30:59

I'm taking a break. I'm going to

31:01

take a break from this and I'll

31:04

let you know and I'll come back

31:06

to it later. And the person said

31:08

to me, you know what, I'll call

31:10

you in a couple of days once

31:12

you've come down. And so I

31:15

thought, no, I'm perfectly fine right

31:17

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31:19

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31:21

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31:23

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so I use that example because

35:22

it was the perfect example. Probably

35:24

what would have happened to me

35:26

in the past decades ago, I

35:28

might have said, oh my gosh,

35:30

okay, yes, you know, I am

35:33

pretty irritated right now. And I

35:35

would probably explain myself of why

35:37

I don't, why I don't like

35:39

what's happening or why I'm unsettled

35:41

with what's happening. But no, I

35:43

said it perfectly. I don't exactly

35:45

know what it is inside of

35:47

me. but I'm not liking what

35:50

I'm feeling right now and what's

35:52

happening in this situation and how

35:54

it's unfolding. I'll get back to

35:56

you once I sort it all

35:58

out. But instead the person took

36:00

it as, oh you're being really

36:02

emotional, you're, you know, when you

36:04

come down I'll get back to

36:06

you. So I just, this is

36:09

an example of codependency and how

36:11

if you can just stay, learn

36:13

to stay in your power of

36:15

what it is you're feeling and

36:17

believing and not get triggered by

36:19

what another person might say or

36:21

do. Yeah, totally. You know, it's

36:23

just, it's interesting to look at

36:26

relationships through this lens now. You

36:28

can pick up on things. It's

36:30

like the tools in your back

36:32

pocket like, oh, okay. So let's

36:34

get into some of the science.

36:36

We won't make you wait any

36:38

longer. Firstly is putting other people's

36:40

needs above your own. And this

36:42

is, as I was researching a

36:45

bit, you know, this is where

36:47

some, it's aligned to toe, because

36:49

obviously if you're a parent or

36:51

you have young children, you're gonna

36:53

put your children's needs sometimes above

36:55

your own. That's how things work.

36:57

So clearly. We're looking at these,

36:59

at this particular one in a

37:01

situation of specificity of, okay, a

37:04

romantic relationship where you go above

37:06

and beyond, or a friendship where

37:08

you go above and beyond, or

37:10

a family member where you go

37:12

above and beyond, but not what's

37:14

the quote unquote normal dynamic of

37:16

whatever. So I want to clarify

37:18

that. I love what you just

37:21

said about. Children and all of

37:23

that I want to clarify that

37:25

because this is how I've been

37:27

defining it over the years and

37:29

Really take this really take this

37:31

with life is on it's all

37:33

the learnings are unfolding So I

37:35

learned about this book and read

37:37

it and started really engaging with

37:40

it and putting into practice in

37:42

my life in you know almost

37:44

40 years ago And it's still

37:46

unfolding for me. So what I

37:48

take putting other persons needs above

37:50

your own. So here's my take

37:52

Of course I might have to

37:54

put my children's needs above mine.

37:57

Of course I might have to

37:59

put my elderly parents... or caregiving

38:01

needs above mine. Of course, as

38:03

loving people, we will do

38:05

that. But I'm not also going

38:07

to allow everyone else in

38:10

the world, everyone else in my

38:12

sphere, to have their needs above

38:14

my own. So I really feel

38:17

strongly about this. My father was

38:19

sick for 40 some days in

38:21

the hospital, and I was there

38:24

every day. and

38:26

I wanted, I put his need and

38:28

my deep desire to care for him

38:30

and be there for him first. But

38:32

that meant I had to also look

38:35

at what do I need in order

38:37

to be able to do that. And

38:39

what I needed in order to be

38:41

able to do that was put everyone

38:43

else in the back burner, like all

38:45

the rest of my family, all the

38:48

rest of my friends, my work, or

38:50

whatever it was that I was doing,

38:52

took second place. So I just want

38:54

to make sure that people understand that

38:57

because we get some pushback on that.

38:59

Well, of course we're going to put

39:01

our kids first, of course we're going

39:03

to put our elderly. Yes, but you also

39:06

then have to look at your life and

39:08

what then has to give so that I

39:10

can have the energy and the

39:12

sustainability to be able to do that

39:14

because I cannot give everyone their

39:16

needs first. I will not survive. I

39:18

would not have had the energy for

39:20

40 plus days to be there fully

39:23

for my dad. So I just really

39:25

want to make that clear we get

39:27

a lot of pushback from that of

39:29

course there are times when and children

39:31

and all of that But that means

39:33

something else has to give along the

39:35

way that means you can't be there

39:37

for someone else or you can't put

39:39

your needs last all the time if

39:42

you're putting your needs first and taking

39:44

care of someone else Yeah, and it's

39:46

like that concept of putting on

39:48

your own oxygen mask on the airplane

39:50

before you go to put the

39:52

mask on your loved one, like

39:54

they say in the safety videos.

39:57

Of course you have to take

39:59

care of... yourself and fill your

40:01

own cup before you can pour

40:03

and fill up somebody else's. Taking

40:05

care of yourself is kind of

40:07

separate from how you show up

40:09

in your relationships, but it's like

40:11

the way that I look at

40:13

this one is just, at least

40:16

in that relationship that I was

40:18

talking about. this person would need

40:20

X, Y, and Z, and I

40:22

would put aside all of my

40:24

needs, wants, goals, desires, wishes to

40:26

fulfill those needs for this one

40:28

person and putting aside all of

40:30

the other relationships too in my

40:32

life to make that person happy.

40:34

Denying maybe family. work friends for

40:36

that person. So it's like that

40:38

person wants to go do this

40:40

instead of the thing that we

40:42

had planned with all these other

40:44

people. Oh, we have to go

40:46

do this. This person doesn't want

40:48

to do it. Oh, we have

40:50

to do that. It's like making

40:52

that person almost have like a

40:54

godlike complex, but we'll continue. And

40:56

then the second is like feeling

40:58

like you can't live without another

41:00

person. I think that's the being

41:02

independent, feeling like you're. being comfortable

41:05

in your own skin, feeling your

41:07

own power, feeling your own strength,

41:09

knowing that whatever life sends your

41:11

way, you have enough to not

41:13

only survive, but to thrive. And

41:15

I think it's really, really important

41:17

to understand that other people complement

41:19

our lives. They bring joy, they

41:21

bring happiness, they bring fulfillment, they

41:23

might bring success, beauty, all of

41:25

the things, of course, and we

41:27

will miss them dearly, miss them

41:29

dearly, miss them dearly. but we

41:31

can survive and ultimately thrive If

41:33

someone is no longer in our

41:35

lives I think it's really important

41:37

to understand that because then it

41:39

makes the beauty of the other

41:41

person even stronger for me. It

41:43

does anyway Makes me appreciate and

41:45

be even more present Yeah, I

41:47

think that's very well said The

41:49

next is relying your happiness on

41:51

someone or something else, which for

41:54

me was huge, I was only

41:56

happy if the relationship was okay.

41:58

If the relationship was not okay,

42:00

I was miserable. I mean, what

42:02

I thought was happy. Obviously I

42:04

was miserable throughout, but in my

42:06

mind, if I could make the

42:08

relationship okay, then I could be

42:10

happy. And of course, relying your

42:12

happiness on anything in the external

42:14

world just does not work. For

42:16

sure. And I think back on

42:18

relationships that I've had, especially this

42:20

one that I'm... almost out of,

42:22

I remember back thinking, you know,

42:24

are you happy? Asking other, asking

42:26

him or asking other people, are

42:28

they happy? You know, and if

42:30

they said no, it destroyed, you

42:32

know, it would, it would, it

42:34

would. destroy me. It was like,

42:36

oh my gosh, well, how can

42:38

you be happy? Can you please

42:40

be happy? So it is interesting.

42:42

And I think it leads perfectly

42:45

to the next one. It's people

42:47

pleasing to an extreme level. Like

42:49

I'll do anything to make you

42:51

happy. I'll do anything to do

42:53

whatever it is that you want

42:55

to do. I'll do anything for

42:57

you to be successful. I'll do

42:59

anything if you just like me

43:01

and be happy. We're so amesh

43:03

and we're so codependent, I'm so

43:05

codependent with you that I'm not

43:07

happy unless you are. So I

43:09

gotta make you happy. Yeah. So,

43:11

and not even thinking about what

43:13

would make me happy. I don't

43:15

even think I knew. I don't

43:17

have any idea. Maybe that's why

43:19

you see me. Disconnection from self.

43:21

You have no connection. It's almost

43:23

like when you're so deeply embedded

43:25

in a codependent situation, you have

43:27

to cut it from yourself off

43:29

from yourself because it. The more

43:31

that you connect with yourself, the

43:34

more you'll hear that voice of

43:36

like, this isn't right, you don't

43:38

want this, this isn't what's in

43:40

your best interest, you should do

43:42

something differently, maybe you should take

43:44

a br- whatever, you have to

43:46

cut yourself off from yourself to

43:48

keep it afloat eventually because you

43:50

can't keep having that battle. So

43:52

for me at least, this situation

43:54

went on for so long. I

43:56

was fully cut off for myself

43:58

and just kind of this weird

44:00

half Michelle that I don't even

44:02

know. Well, and that's why you

44:04

started this episode. You see me

44:06

so happy today and so much

44:08

energy and so lively. I'm not

44:10

worried about trying to make other

44:12

people happy. I'm just happy. I'm

44:14

being myself and showing up fully

44:16

in my own grandeur and my

44:18

own presence and I'm fully present

44:20

with the people that I'm with.

44:23

So the happiness that I'm feeling

44:25

from the inside out. I mean,

44:27

I hope other people are feeling

44:29

happy and that they're enjoying their

44:31

time, but that's not my primary

44:33

concern. Or your problem or your...

44:35

Or my thought. Not even my

44:37

thought. I'm only thinking about how

44:39

can I show up and be

44:41

me, and I'm really excited to

44:43

do that. So, you know, not

44:45

having rigid, next one, not having

44:47

rigid expectations of what we think

44:49

will make ourselves happy or make

44:51

other people happy. Like this whole

44:53

idea of what happiness is, so...

44:55

Yeah. I

44:58

think to the rigid expectations is like,

45:00

for me at least in that situation,

45:02

I did not think that I could

45:04

not be in it. The only way

45:07

to be happy was that figuring that

45:09

relationship out. Like, there was, there wasn't

45:11

even option A or B, it was

45:13

just option A, and there was nothing

45:15

else. But in reality, like you said

45:17

that your therapist said to you all

45:20

those years ago, you think you have

45:22

option A or B, B, B, you

45:24

have options A through Z. of options

45:26

and opportunities and possibilities and obviously my

45:28

life has progressed past that relationship into

45:30

a completely different life with completely different

45:32

people and all of the things that

45:35

I never even could have imagined because

45:37

I was so honed in on and

45:39

so rigid into that that was it.

45:41

I had to have that was the

45:43

key to happiness. So it's that rigidity

45:45

and I love that because then that

45:48

leads to the next one. Because we're

45:50

that rigid we lose our sense of

45:52

any boundaries of what we will. and

45:54

won't tolerate because the ultimate goal is

45:56

this is the only choice that I

45:58

have. I've got to stay in this

46:01

relationship and I've got to make it

46:03

work and I've got to be happy

46:05

and the other person has to be

46:07

happy. So you don't have boundaries. You

46:09

don't even know what you know. There

46:11

are things that you don't want to

46:14

tolerate but you're thinking okay this will

46:16

change if I just change this and

46:18

myself or if I just make this

46:20

other person happy. So we're constantly then

46:22

the next one going against and participating

46:24

in participating. Yeah, so it's really interesting

46:27

to see can you see how the

46:29

domino of that is? Don't have any

46:31

choices I've got to stay in this

46:33

relationship So I got to make it

46:35

work. So I got to make them

46:37

happy so I got to forgo Any

46:40

things that are not in my best

46:42

interest I've got to I don't even

46:44

know what I will and won't tolerate

46:46

because I'm so a mesh in this

46:48

idea that it doesn't matter I got

46:50

to make it work at all costs

46:53

And I think this is why it's

46:55

so hard for so many of us

46:57

to set boundaries as we grow out

46:59

of these dynamics and these situations because

47:01

We've gone so long in this sense

47:03

of no boundaries Lucy goosey Whatever and

47:06

now she then flipped the script in

47:08

our own mind of what's healthy the

47:10

thought of boundaries is like sometimes impossible

47:12

So just thinking about that Yeah, that

47:14

not leads into the next one. We

47:16

ignored the intuition or the hits that

47:19

we're getting in our stomach sometimes that

47:21

I always say the body Always knows

47:23

first the body is sending us messages

47:25

all the time so we might be

47:27

feeling You know pits in their stomach

47:29

upset stomach pain in the neck all

47:32

the things in the bodies trying to

47:34

tell us what's happening, but we ignore

47:36

the intuition and I'm sure you mean

47:38

you had me on you quite a

47:40

bed I don't I don't think I

47:42

was a nag or anything but You

47:45

could tell that I was not a

47:47

fan of this relationship because I could

47:49

just see you losing and losing and

47:51

losing yourself every time And I also

47:53

saw his behavior in his ways that

47:55

he treated you and just the way

47:57

he acted and so I think loved

48:00

ones, you know when you're in a

48:02

codependent relationship, there are loved ones around

48:04

us all the time trying to help us

48:06

see, wait a minute, this is not okay,

48:08

you know, you deserve better, you know, other

48:11

people are seeing how amazing we are, how

48:13

much we deserve better, but it's really hard

48:15

for us to see it. Yeah, I think

48:17

that ignoring your intuition and advice of loved

48:20

ones piece was huge for me. I always

48:22

at the beginning would get these hits like

48:24

this isn't, you should not do this or

48:26

don't move to Chicago. I know I know

48:29

I talked about that. don't do this or

48:31

don't do that and I ignored it

48:33

but then ignoring what other

48:35

people would the loved ones the advice

48:37

you know of course you said it

48:39

often but I had other people other friends

48:42

who were like this you could do

48:44

better than this like this is not

48:46

what you deserve or this is not

48:48

what's this isn't right for you like

48:51

when are you gonna end this and

48:53

it was almost like I would hear

48:55

those things don't be like I'll prove

48:57

you wrong It was almost like

49:00

a challenge of like, okay, you

49:02

think that? I'll show you that

49:04

you're wrong. So the more you start

49:06

to sever that connection

49:09

to yourself and be so

49:11

rigid with the expectations of

49:13

what you think you want,

49:15

the more lengths you'll go

49:17

to prove everybody else wrong

49:20

that it's good in that.

49:22

You might think it's bad, but I'm

49:24

going to show you once we get

49:26

out of this phase It's going to

49:28

be fine, and you're going to say

49:30

oh wow I was wrong I always

49:32

was like yeah, you might think that

49:34

That's nice of you to think that

49:36

but I'll show you I'll show you So it's

49:38

just it's interesting to

49:40

look back on it for sure It

49:42

is and I think is the longer

49:45

you're in a relationship like that because

49:47

yours lasted five years I think four

49:49

or five years longer longer so the

49:51

longer you're in it then as you

49:53

keep enduring it and keep enduring it

49:55

then it starts to seep in this

49:57

next one you start to feel stuck

50:00

You know, I'm stuck, I'm trapped. And

50:02

now I really don't even know how

50:04

the change is gonna happen, but now

50:06

you're more desperate than ever for the

50:08

change to happen. Like I've invested so

50:10

much time in this, I've been doing

50:13

it, now I really feel stuck, I

50:15

don't even know what my options would

50:17

be, even if I thought I had

50:19

some to begin with. And you start

50:21

to really become unclear and trapped, and

50:23

then it leads to the last one,

50:26

you really don't have a sense of

50:28

your own identity. So you can kind

50:30

of see the picture that the puzzle

50:32

that we just put together for you

50:34

that the ultimate then is you've truly

50:36

lost yourself That there is no separation

50:39

between you and the other person You

50:41

literally are trapped. This is my life

50:43

This is my lot in life. I'm

50:45

gonna have to endure it somehow. Let

50:47

me figure out how to do this

50:49

and you've totally lost your sense of

50:52

who you are and your sense of

50:54

desires and wishes and ultimate dreams for

50:56

your life Yeah, there's no

50:58

separation whatsoever in the end stages.

51:00

I believe of codependency whatsoever in

51:02

the end stages. I believe of

51:05

codependency No, there isn't Sorry, I

51:07

traveled back to a different time.

51:09

I know, sorry. It can bring

51:11

up a lot. It's huge. That's

51:13

why we started this. No, it's

51:15

just, this is a huge topic.

51:18

It is, it is probably the

51:20

most important, I just believe it's

51:22

the most important thing that we

51:24

could be talking about right now.

51:26

How do we, how do we

51:28

lose ourselves? How do we get

51:30

to a place where that teacher

51:33

said to me decade ago, no

51:35

one has the power to name

51:37

who you are? It's

51:39

just very interesting to look back

51:41

and reflect back on this time

51:43

and to remember You know certain

51:45

things and certain dynamics and certain

51:47

situations and just Really that deep

51:49

feeling of always yearning for like

51:52

the next nice pleasant experience and

51:54

never knowing when you're going to

51:56

get it and living your life

51:58

based around that is just really

52:00

sad, but I'm so grateful for

52:02

it because what that loss of

52:04

sense of identity and desires, and

52:06

I think ultimately too, those codependent

52:08

relationships, they can't work, they can't

52:10

last, and so they end badly,

52:12

you know, that relationship of mine

52:15

ended really badly and badly for

52:17

me. You know, I got... really

52:19

so sucked in and duped that

52:21

like it took just seeing the

52:23

worst things and feeling the worst

52:25

things in order to push me

52:27

out you get pushed out and

52:29

so that happened to me which

52:31

was of course so painful I

52:33

literally thought that I was gonna

52:36

die live my whole life a

52:38

whole full life and die and

52:40

never get over this situation. I

52:42

thought I was going to be

52:44

sad and heartbroken and miserable and

52:46

never ever ever get over it

52:48

in that moment. So it's fascinating

52:50

for me to look back on

52:52

it because and feel grateful for

52:54

it, which is something I never

52:56

thought that I would say, that

52:59

whole death of myself of course

53:01

led to a new exploration of

53:03

who I am and what I

53:05

wanted because being pushed out of

53:07

that, being pushed out of my

53:09

life, you know, because like you

53:11

right now, going through a divorce,

53:13

you have some friends that come

53:15

and go, you have some parts

53:17

of your life that are leaving

53:20

or falling away, and you're just

53:22

kind of left of like, okay,

53:24

what do I do now? And

53:26

that happened to me. Friends, situations,

53:28

habits, work, all of it kind

53:30

of fell away, and you're left

53:32

with, okay, well, what do I

53:34

want to create now? And that

53:36

led me on a different path,

53:38

a different journey, and I mean,

53:40

ultimately, I'll be working with you.

53:43

Here we are today. But you

53:45

do, it's like you lose yourself

53:47

and then you really have to

53:49

find your way back to yourself.

53:51

And that is the blessing. I

53:53

mean, it's so hard to ever

53:55

see a blessing, but I think

53:57

as I look at all that

53:59

I'm going to be sharing in

54:01

the next year, the idea that

54:03

the blessing is I have a

54:06

blank slate now and I can

54:08

create whatever I want. I can

54:10

actually look at my life. What

54:12

do I like? What do I

54:14

want to take out? I remember

54:16

when you were in the throes

54:18

of this relationship. I remember saying

54:20

to you once, Michelle, you either

54:22

need to dump him first before

54:24

he dumps you and you got

54:27

so angry with me. I remember

54:29

this whole conversation because I could

54:31

see it on the wall and

54:33

I love what you just vulnerability

54:35

shared that you were literally pushed

54:37

out. What happened to you, it

54:39

was very traumatic and just the

54:41

whole way that that unfolded to

54:43

the very end. And I think

54:45

I am so grateful and so

54:47

loving. and proud and just so

54:50

happy for you that you can

54:52

be sitting here today talking about

54:54

how grateful you are that it

54:56

even happened because look at the

54:58

part you you've actually embodied your

55:00

whole self now you and these

55:02

are some of the things we

55:04

want to talk about how can

55:06

you create the life that you

55:08

came here to live and start

55:11

to dissolve some of the codependent

55:13

behaviors and this is exactly what

55:15

you did little by little by

55:17

little and look at you today.

55:19

you are extraordinary. I mean we're

55:21

all extraordinary but we lose the

55:23

light. We lose our ability to

55:25

see how magnificent we really are

55:27

and so I think it starts

55:29

with you know you need that

55:31

clean break and so he actually

55:34

did you a favor by by

55:36

throwing you out or pushing you

55:38

out or ending it or however

55:40

that whole thing went down. Yeah

55:42

thank God. And so now you

55:44

know looking at the things that

55:46

then as you were as you

55:48

were not picking up the pieces

55:50

of your life. See that's where

55:52

I don't. care for that phrase

55:55

so much. You were picking up

55:57

the pieces of your life. Did

55:59

I say that? No, people say

56:01

that. No, you didn't say that

56:03

at all. I'm just saying we

56:05

like to redefine situations in life.

56:07

I like better, like you now

56:09

have a blank sheet and you're

56:11

now creating, you're adding into, you're

56:13

actually looking at your life, what

56:15

do I want here? Who am

56:18

I? What do I want? What

56:20

do I want? What is going

56:22

to serve me in this moment

56:24

so that I can be the

56:26

greatest version of who I am?

56:28

So then I can show up

56:30

in life and be helpful and

56:32

a great version for others. Yeah,

56:34

and you know. This process of

56:36

coming out of a co-dependent situation

56:38

and starting over is not Pleasant

56:41

or nice or easy or it's

56:43

horrible or any of those things

56:45

Because when I you know got

56:47

pushed out of the relationship and

56:49

pushed out of all of the

56:51

things that I was comfortable, but

56:53

miserable and you're alone and you're

56:55

sad and you're confused and you

56:57

just have to sit with yourself

56:59

in this new situation and you

57:02

can't change it and you can't

57:04

fix it but you just have

57:06

to be with the feelings and

57:08

not push them away anymore like

57:10

you had for so long and

57:12

that really really sucks and it's

57:14

difficult and it's painful but as

57:16

you start to sit with it

57:18

and kind of move through it

57:20

and feel a little bit stronger

57:22

you start to establish that connection

57:25

with yourself again. And of course,

57:27

having some tools and practices that

57:29

help you connect, obviously, are even

57:31

better. But I had a life

57:33

coach say to me years ago,

57:35

Allison, like what I always loved

57:37

is just follow the breadcrum, follow

57:39

the breadcrums of like, of what

57:41

excites you or interests you. And

57:43

at that time, yoga was it

57:46

for me. So I followed that

57:48

breadcrum and went into yoga teacher

57:50

training. that breadcrum let me to

57:52

this, to that, to this. So

57:54

it's like following the breadcrumbs of

57:56

what excites you can help bring

57:58

you back to that. person

58:00

that you are that's been

58:03

living inside of you that

58:05

you've disconnected from yourself. Bring

58:07

you back to yourself? And I

58:09

think that yoga, you know, as we

58:12

now move into ways to start to

58:14

dissolve, really, to start to tease away,

58:16

to start to tease away, like to

58:19

start to tease away, like a knot,

58:21

think about a hair being all knotted

58:23

up and you're taking a comb and

58:25

you're trying to tease out all the

58:28

knots and condition to do. And so

58:30

that yoga teacher training led you to

58:32

a daily meditation and mindfulness practice. And

58:35

I think that's the first step. Those

58:37

ways of coming back to yourself

58:39

and really starting to establish

58:41

the second part, establishing that

58:44

strong, centered relationship with yourself, that

58:46

deep friendship where you can kind

58:48

of trust and love and accept

58:50

yourself completely and learning how to take care

58:52

of yourself for the very first time. What

58:55

do I need? What do I want? Who

58:57

am I? Yeah, and getting clear

58:59

on what you want

59:01

in your life, establishing

59:03

a sense of self-confidence

59:06

and self-worth and believing

59:08

that you're worthy of

59:10

your desires and not

59:12

just what's in front

59:14

of you. You know, you don't

59:17

have to settle. That was

59:19

the biggest thing for me

59:21

too, is that I don't have

59:23

to settle for anything

59:25

less. And of course having boundaries

59:27

getting clear of what you will and

59:30

will not tolerate and that's a big

59:32

one You know you think I thought

59:34

that everyone would like me if I

59:36

was just chill and I didn't care

59:38

about anything Everything was fine But that's

59:41

it's not a way to be happier

59:43

to live your life and people don't

59:45

like you anymore if you're just this

59:47

person that's Flapping in the wind and

59:50

I think think about that if you're

59:52

saying that to yourself Everything is

59:54

just fine. If everyone likes me, everything is

59:56

just fine. I don't really care about anything.

59:58

I'm fine. I'm fine. You know,

1:00:01

I don't really care. It's not true.

1:00:03

We're really abandoning ourselves big time. We

1:00:05

are not giving ourselves any credit for

1:00:08

being worthy, extraordinary human beings. So we're

1:00:10

really abandoning. Of course we care. Of

1:00:12

course, it's not fine if certain things

1:00:15

happen. So we really have to deny

1:00:17

ourselves. to say something like that. I

1:00:19

don't care. You know, whatever you want

1:00:22

to do, it's fine. That was so

1:00:24

neat. I don't have any feelings about

1:00:26

it. I'm fine. You know, it's just

1:00:29

not true. So I think really understanding

1:00:31

that and starting to say, wait a

1:00:33

minute, if your mind says I don't

1:00:36

care, I'm fine. Wait a minute, I

1:00:38

do care. Let me take a moment

1:00:40

here and see how I feel. People

1:00:43

like confidence and clarity and clarity and

1:00:45

clarity. trying to teach me to be

1:00:47

assertive. And I'm like, why would I

1:00:50

want to be assertive? Who likes that?

1:00:52

And now I'm like, no, he was

1:00:54

right. And lastly is, of course, to

1:00:57

seek professional assistance when necessary. I don't

1:00:59

think, outside of you, mom, codependent or

1:01:01

more of the book, and my therapist,

1:01:04

I don't know how I would have

1:01:06

gone through that, the three pillars of

1:01:08

my healing. And therapy is. I think

1:01:11

probably pretty necessary when untangling codependent situation.

1:01:13

Especially when you think about some of

1:01:15

the traumas you've been through as well,

1:01:18

which I'm sure will impact and unfold

1:01:20

as we move through these episodes of

1:01:22

the podcast. We have so much... Gonna

1:01:25

trauma mind me for the pod for

1:01:27

content? We have so much to share

1:01:29

with you all, but I think, you

1:01:32

know, and if you can't afford a

1:01:34

therapist or there isn't one available that

1:01:36

you mesh with, I really think reaching

1:01:39

out and having one other person... That

1:01:41

you can just talk to that isn't

1:01:43

there to give you advice that isn't

1:01:46

there to tell you what's right or

1:01:48

wrong with you Just someone that you

1:01:50

can express your feelings to is huge

1:01:53

There was a time in my life

1:01:55

when I didn't have some I didn't

1:01:57

have the opportunity So having that one

1:02:00

that I could actually, you know, just

1:02:02

say how you feel and what's happening

1:02:04

without looking for someone to fix it

1:02:07

or help you, but just to actually,

1:02:09

just to be able to speak it.

1:02:11

Because the more that you can, you

1:02:14

love journaling, we should do a whole

1:02:16

thing on journaling, but you love journaling,

1:02:18

and just to write it down, just

1:02:21

to be able to express it, just

1:02:23

to get it out on paper, to

1:02:25

get it out to another human being.

1:02:28

Getting it out helps you get clear,

1:02:30

I think, for me. It helps me

1:02:32

get, it has helped me get clear.

1:02:35

And it's like putting it out there

1:02:37

in the universe, well, this is what

1:02:39

I desire, this is what I want,

1:02:42

this is how I'm feeling. And it

1:02:44

really kind of acts, I think, as

1:02:46

a, well, not a block, but it

1:02:49

acts as a guard for you to

1:02:51

go back on yourself. Well, maybe I

1:02:53

didn't really feel that way. Oh, maybe

1:02:56

they were right and I was wrong,

1:02:58

and I was wrong. in every given

1:03:00

moment. Yeah. I love this. I love

1:03:03

it. So hopefully this is helpful for

1:03:05

you to just start to identify some

1:03:07

of the common symptoms, signs of codependency,

1:03:10

how you can start to unravel it.

1:03:12

Definitely check out the book. We'll link

1:03:14

it in the show notes if that

1:03:17

appeals to you. But just know that

1:03:19

you're. You're worthy of loving, kind, compassionate,

1:03:21

supportive relationships. You don't need to be

1:03:24

a certain way for people to like

1:03:26

you and to love you. And if

1:03:28

you're feeling that way, just know it's

1:03:31

a sign that there's better out there.

1:03:33

Yeah, those people aren't for you. There's

1:03:35

a good to know. Eight billion people

1:03:38

on the planet. And you are worthy.

1:03:40

I love you and you are loved.

1:03:42

Thank you, Michelle. I love you dearly.

1:03:45

Love you, Mom. Thanks for sharing your

1:03:47

whole experience with that relationship. Always happy

1:03:49

to trauma mine for the pod for

1:03:52

the BKB community. But yeah, let us

1:03:54

know how you, what you think and

1:03:56

what comes up for you or if

1:03:59

you have any thoughts about codapend- as

1:04:01

always. And thank you so much for

1:04:03

listening to this week's episode. We're so

1:04:06

grateful for all of you. And it

1:04:08

really is special for us to be

1:04:10

able to share life with you all,

1:04:13

honestly. So, thank you. If you haven't

1:04:15

yet, make sure you're following us on

1:04:17

social media, at Peaceful Barb, at Michelle

1:04:20

Maros, at Barb, knows best pod. Of

1:04:22

course, that's the best way to stay

1:04:24

in touch with us. Please make sure

1:04:27

you like and subscribe to the podcast

1:04:29

wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple Google,

1:04:31

Spotify, and if you haven't yet kept

1:04:34

us a five-star rating and a glowing

1:04:36

review, it helps us so much and

1:04:38

we'd be so grateful. Thank you so

1:04:41

much for listening again. Thanks for being

1:04:43

with us and we'll chat with you

1:04:45

next week because as we know, Barb

1:04:48

knows best. Bye! Stay

1:05:03

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