0:00

This episode was recorded

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on camaragal land. Hi

0:04

guys and welcome back to

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another episode of life on

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cut, I'm Brittany and I'm

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Keisha. And today we're going to

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talk about something that affects every

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single woman I know, every single

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person I know, but today we're

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really going to hone in on

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women. Stress. Think about the last

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time you spoke to a friend,

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when did you run into somebody

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and say, hey, how you going?

0:30

And they answered with, I am

0:32

great, I've been having so much

0:34

fun lately, I'm super relaxed, I'm

0:36

loving my life. It's not, it's

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not often that you hear that

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response. The most common response

0:42

is... Overwhelmed, stress, flat out like a

0:45

lizard drinking, can't sleep, running around chasing my

0:47

tail, running around after the kids, anxiety is

0:49

high, having had a day off in weeks,

0:51

I feel like that is the most common

0:53

response. I do too, and I just feel

0:56

like even within myself. I just have this

0:58

constant feeling of not being able to quite

1:00

catch my tail, like not being able to

1:02

quite catch up, you know, we joke a

1:04

lot about the whole, oh, this week's been

1:07

really stressful, but don't worry, next week will

1:09

be better, but then we just keep on

1:11

saying that time after time after time. And

1:13

next week's work. Exactly, and stress is something

1:16

that I think we are all experiencing to

1:18

such a large extent, but none of us

1:20

really have... particularly easy and simple ways to

1:22

break that stress down and to reduce it

1:25

in our lives. And that's why today's guest

1:27

is the wonderful Dr. Rungen Chatterji. Now

1:29

he is a practicing medical doctor. He's

1:31

got over two decades worth of experience.

1:34

He's also a writer. He's written over

1:36

six books. He's hosted TV shows for

1:38

over a decade and he has one

1:41

of the most popular podcasts in the

1:43

world in the health and wellness category.

1:45

It is called Feel better live more.

1:48

And I think we all underestimate just

1:50

how much. stress affects our lives and

1:52

affects our body, mentally, spiritually, physiologically, the

1:55

whole kit and caboodle. And the best

1:57

thing about Dr. Chattagie is he

1:59

really... breaks it down to make it

2:02

simple. It's not complex. He wants to

2:04

make it palatable because he genuinely cares

2:06

about changing people's lives. So from your

2:08

23 years practicing medicine, what do you

2:10

think are some of the most common

2:13

issues women are facing? I know from

2:15

the outside, from people in my life

2:17

and myself included, I feel like burnout

2:19

and overwhelm are the things that seem

2:22

to be consuming everyone's lives. Yeah, I

2:24

would agree. I think stress, fatigue, burnout,

2:26

overwhelm seems to be... the symptom of

2:28

the day, right? I mean, you're asking

2:31

for women, I think a lot of

2:33

men feel that as well, but specifically

2:35

with women, I would say absolutely, that

2:37

is a huge issue. I think it's

2:40

getting worse, and I think we're looking

2:42

at it the wrong way, actually. One

2:44

thing I've realized over my, you know,

2:46

23 years of practice now is that

2:48

stress doesn't just come from the outside.

2:51

We think it does. We think stress

2:53

is only to do with what we

2:55

have going on. I've got to do

2:57

this, I've got to do that, I've

3:00

got to pick this person, I've got

3:02

to do that, my boss has asked

3:04

me to do this. That is true.

3:06

Those things are all stresses. At the

3:09

same time, I would say for most

3:11

of us, the majority of stress we

3:13

experience is generated by ourselves. What do

3:15

I mean by that? This was probably

3:18

the key learning in my life a

3:20

few years ago, which is probably... the

3:22

number one reason why I generally feel

3:24

calm happy content generally in control of

3:26

life even though I have a busy

3:29

life because I realize that we have

3:31

the power with our minds to frame

3:33

every situation we can take what I

3:35

call a victim mindset to life and

3:38

I say that with compassion I honestly

3:40

do I'm not I'm not blaming anyone

3:42

for that or we can say what

3:44

I call the architect mindset to life

3:47

where we understand that we get to

3:49

frame every single situation and so You

3:51

know it's it's it's something that until

3:53

you get it seems like what you

3:56

talk about right but I tell you

3:58

how I got this one of the

4:00

most powerful conversations I've ever had on

4:02

my own podcast which has been running

4:04

for seven and a half years now

4:07

is with a 93 year old lady

4:09

called Edith Eager. Now when I spoke

4:11

to her she was 93 years old

4:13

and she was telling me about her

4:16

childhood and when she was 16 years

4:18

old she got taken to Auschwitz concentration

4:20

camp with her sister and both her

4:22

parents were murdered within two hours of

4:25

getting there. right she's a 16 year

4:27

old young you know young lady and

4:29

two hours after her parents have been

4:31

murdered she's asked to dance and perform

4:34

for the senior prison guards and you

4:36

know what she said to me she

4:38

said wrong and listen I never forgot

4:40

the last thing my mother said to

4:43

me my mom said to me Edith

4:45

never ever forget nobody can take from

4:47

you the contents that you put inside

4:49

your own mind so she then tells

4:51

me when I was dancing in Auschwitz

4:54

I wasn't actually dancing in Auschwitz. In

4:56

my mind I was in Budapest Opera

4:58

House. There was a full orchestra playing,

5:00

there was a full house, there was

5:03

beautiful music, it was wonderful. And I'm

5:05

thinking, your parents have been murdered, you're

5:07

literally in a death camp and you're

5:09

reframing this in your mind. And there's

5:12

many things she told me, but the

5:14

final word she said to me, which

5:16

relates to your question is, she said,

5:18

Ronkin, I have lived in Auschwitz. And

5:21

I can tell you the greatest prison

5:23

you will ever live inside is the

5:25

prison that you create inside your own

5:27

minds. Wow. And I'll tell you, Brittany,

5:29

Keisha, the penny dropped for me that

5:32

day. I thought, that's what we all

5:34

do. We go around the world and

5:36

the car driver cuts us up and

5:38

we get stressed and angry. And we

5:41

feel that it was the car driver

5:43

that made us stressed and angry. But

5:45

it isn't actually. It's our... response to

5:47

the car driver that's making us angry.

5:50

so much and I've spoken about this

5:52

and we wrote about it in our

5:54

book but I spent a month with

5:56

this Buddhist monk and the one thing

5:59

the big takeaway that I took from

6:01

his learnings was that your whole life

6:03

and quality of life depends on your

6:05

reaction to the given situation it's not

6:07

the situation because that's happened regardless you

6:10

can't change it. but you can change

6:12

the way you think about it, you

6:14

can change the way you deal with

6:16

it, and you can change the way

6:19

you move on. And I still try

6:21

to put that into practice now. I

6:23

even had road rage this morning on

6:25

the way here, and then I had

6:28

to stop myself for a second and

6:30

think, why am I so angry? I

6:32

can't change what is happening right now.

6:34

Yeah, that is such a peaceful example,

6:37

and there's so many things there. First

6:39

of all, even if we know this

6:41

stuff, we won't still do it right

6:43

so as you said you had road

6:45

rage this morning but you're at least

6:48

aware now that actually you know what

6:50

I was generating that stress like it

6:52

wasn't the driver it was actually me

6:54

I didn't need to that's the key

6:57

learning for people because why I'm so

6:59

passionate about this idea is yes it

7:01

relates to your contentment and your happiness

7:03

but it also relates to your health

7:06

right and this is the the big

7:08

thing I try to outline in my

7:10

in my latest but make change at

7:12

last so I try to say guys

7:15

the reason why we're struggling to make

7:17

changes that actually last in the long

7:19

term and we keep trying to think

7:21

why can't I give up sugar why

7:23

can't I do this why can't I

7:26

do that is I think we forget

7:28

about internal stress so let's use the

7:30

car driver as an example right so

7:32

we all know that feeling when we're

7:35

driving our car when someone cuts us

7:37

up and that we might start shouting

7:39

or shouting or going, you know, stupid

7:41

drivers shouldn't have a license, whatever, you

7:44

know, whatever story, whatever our version of

7:46

that is, what we do in that

7:48

moment is we're creating internal emotional stress.

7:50

That internal emotional stress is not neutral.

7:53

You will half the neutralize it in

7:55

some way or another and how do

7:57

most of us try and neutralize it,

7:59

sugar, coffee. alcohol, two, three hours

8:01

sort of doom scrolling on Instagram,

8:03

whatever it might be, those things

8:06

are a response to the stress

8:08

that we created by the way

8:10

we interacted with that neutral situation.

8:12

And once we learned to go, wait

8:14

a minute, maybe I can train myself

8:17

to not go mad every time a

8:19

driver comes into my lane because I

8:21

used to be that guy and I'm

8:23

not anymore, right? I've become aware, first

8:25

of all, and little by little by

8:27

practice, or I couldn't do it, and

8:29

that night I was like, ah, wrong, you

8:31

know what? You did it again today, didn't

8:33

you? Next time, you don't need to react

8:36

like that. Just like if you're going

8:38

from the sofa to a 5K, we

8:40

understand that you can train your

8:42

body physically, but you can also

8:44

train your mindset. And so going

8:46

back to your original question, loads

8:48

of women are struggling with stress,

8:50

overwhelm, fatigue. I'm not at all

8:53

saying that aren't external stresses

8:55

on women. That they're absolutely

8:57

are. But what I'm also

8:59

trying to say is that actually a

9:01

lot of the stress in our lives

9:03

is by the way we look at

9:05

the situation. And if we learn to

9:08

look at situations differently, often we

9:10

won't feel the stressed. Dr. Chattagie, it's

9:12

something that I've heard you speak about before

9:14

that is kind of related to this whole

9:17

mindset shift around food in particular. Like you

9:19

just mentioned, a lot of us seem to

9:21

struggle with the whole sugar craving, the whole

9:23

like it gets to a certain part of

9:25

the evening and we scurry away into the

9:28

kitchen and we'll find whatever we can in

9:30

the pantry or in the freezer or in

9:32

the freezer or in the fridge because we're

9:34

just trying to kind of feel something that

9:36

we describe as a sugar craving. What's your

9:38

take on emotional eating and why is

9:40

it that especially when we're fatigued we're

9:42

burnt out and we're stressed so many

9:44

of us are kind of turning to

9:46

this this little buzz that we're trying

9:48

to get overnight time before we go to

9:51

bed? Yeah it's a great question and I

9:53

think again this is the big missing piece

9:55

when we talk to people about food or

9:57

improving the way that they eat people are

9:59

eating not just for physical hunger, they're eating

10:02

for emotional hunger as well, right? And if

10:04

you're eating for emotional hunger, you don't need

10:06

another diet, but telling you about the principles

10:08

of healthy eating, right? You already kind of

10:11

know that. You need to understand what are

10:13

these internal triggers, one of the exercises that

10:15

I love and have been. doing with my

10:18

patients for years is called the three Fs

10:20

or the freedom exercise, okay? So the three

10:22

Fs are feel, feed, and find. Okay, so

10:24

next time someone is on their sofa at

10:27

9 p.m. in the evening and even though

10:29

they had a full meal at 8 o'clock,

10:31

they feel like some ice cream. I'm not

10:33

saying that's ever happened to you. It was

10:36

literally me last night, I was just thinking

10:38

this is me last night. Just in case

10:40

it applies to anyone, okay? The three F

10:43

exercise can be really really powerful, okay? So

10:45

you're sitting on the sofa, you've got an

10:47

urge to have ice cream. Okay, the first

10:49

step, so I say, have a little pause

10:52

before you go and get the ice cream

10:54

out of the freezer, just ask yourself, what

10:56

am I actually feeling? That's the first death,

10:59

okay. Is this a physical hunger? Tired, am

11:01

I stressed? Have I just had a row

11:03

with my partner? You know, as the children's

11:05

bedtime gone on too long, whatever it might

11:08

be, what am I really feeling? Then go

11:10

and get the ice cream and have it,

11:12

if you want to, okay? The next time

11:15

it happens, you go through the first stuff

11:17

again, what am I feeling? And then you

11:19

go to the second F. And then you

11:21

go, oh, well, what I have my ice

11:24

scream. In the short term at least I

11:26

feel less stressed. Ah, okay, so that's why

11:28

I'm eating. I'm like, I'm feeling stressed in

11:31

ice cream, mate, so we feel better. Okay,

11:33

great. The next time it happens, you then

11:35

go to the third F. So you again

11:37

go through the process. What am I feeling?

11:40

I'm feeling stressed. How does food feed the

11:42

feeling? Oh, the ice cream makes me feel

11:44

less stressed. The third F is fine. Now

11:47

that I know the feeling, now that I

11:49

know how food feeds the feeling, can I

11:51

find an alternative behavior to feed that feeling?

11:53

Don't you're going to say, can you find,

11:56

can I find the food? Can I find

11:58

the thing that's going to say that's fine?

12:00

No, well, you could, you could, you could

12:03

apply it like that, or you could go,

12:05

okay, so I feel stressed, are you normally

12:07

going to ice cream, What else can I

12:09

do to manage that stress? Okay, let's say

12:12

you like yoga for example, right? You could

12:14

put on YouTube and go, actually I'm gonna

12:16

do five minutes of yoga, right? You could

12:19

identify that, you know what, I'm not at

12:21

any time to myself today, right? I've just

12:23

been on Zoom calls, and so ice cream

12:25

was a way of just treating myself, Maybe

12:28

I'll run myself a bath and nourish myself

12:30

in a slightly different way. If it's loneliness

12:32

that's causing you to eat, as it is

12:35

for many people, they feel about isolated or

12:37

lonely, instead of going to the eyes scream,

12:39

what else could you do? Well, if you

12:41

live with someone like your part or a

12:44

flatmate, you could go and talk to them,

12:46

if you don't, you could pick it your

12:48

phone, you could phone a friend, you could

12:51

phone one of your parents if they're still

12:53

alive, or whatever it might be, and I

12:55

know it sounds super simple. but I have

12:57

used these three S with patients for years

13:00

and it can often be life-changing because you

13:02

know your question was why do we do

13:04

this right a lot of the time we're

13:07

not conscious of why we're doing this we

13:09

get the urge and before we know the

13:11

spoons in our mouth right with ice cream

13:13

and it's and all this exercise does it

13:16

just starts to give you a little bit

13:18

of a gap between the stimulus which is

13:20

I want to eat something and your response

13:23

which is the ice cream And the more

13:25

you just create a little gap there, the

13:27

more you start to understand yourself. And once

13:29

you understand why you're going to that behavior,

13:32

right? you've automatically changed your relationship with that

13:34

behavior. Even if you go to it in

13:36

the future, you'll know, I'm managing stress here

13:39

by eating this ice screen. And it means

13:41

for most people, they're less likely to do

13:43

it once they're tuned in to why they're

13:45

actually engaging in that behavior. So again, it's

13:48

a simple exercise that you can apply to

13:50

food. You can also apply. It's an alcohol

13:52

or three hours scrolling, TikTok or Instagram. It's

13:55

a very simple, you know, will it work

13:57

for serious addictions? No, probably not. But at

13:59

the same time, for many of us, when

14:01

we've got these behaviors that we're really trying

14:04

to cut back on, it can be a

14:06

very powerful exercise. How much do you think

14:08

willpower comes into playing and having said that

14:11

do you think willpower or something that you

14:13

can learn? I even say this last night

14:15

yesterday you mentioned if you're really stressed you

14:17

want to eat yesterday I was really stressed

14:20

I'd been crying in the day I had

14:22

a whole lot of things got to nighttime

14:24

and I bought 22 easter eggs big ones

14:27

and I started to eat them couldn't stop

14:29

and then there was a complete disconnect with

14:31

my brain and my body my brain was

14:33

literally saying stop eating them like stop it

14:36

now put what is in your hand down

14:38

and then I couldn't do it and then

14:40

I said to myself at least choose slower

14:43

and I could not that's why I said

14:45

I was like enjoy the egg that is

14:47

in your mouth and I could not I

14:49

could not my mind was being like slow

14:52

it down enjoy the moment and then I

14:54

just was like a guzzle guts and I

14:56

thought what is happening there why is this

14:59

huge disconnect happening between my brain and my

15:01

body were you stressed at the time? Yeah,

15:03

and you know, stress causes a disconnection, right?

15:05

Because when you are stressed, it literally changes

15:08

the way you experience the world, right? So

15:10

when you're stressed, your physiology completely changes, right?

15:12

You're not expansive, you're not compassionate and empathetic,

15:15

looking at the other perspective, your whole... focus

15:17

comes in when you're stressed, you're looking for

15:19

problems, you feel a bit tense, anxious, hyper

15:21

vigilant, that's natural because stress ultimately is your

15:24

body saying that it thinks that it's in

15:26

danger, right? And that's the problem these days

15:28

is that our stress response has been activated

15:31

not by wild predators, it's been activated by

15:33

the state of our daily lies, by our

15:35

email inboxes, by our... multiple social media channels

15:37

we're trying to keep up to date with

15:40

or whatever it might be right and our

15:42

body responds in a different way but that's

15:44

the key point Brittany you have to understand

15:47

that actually stress literally changes your physiology so

15:49

you know you're saying there's a disconnect there

15:51

yeah there is a disconnect there that's literally

15:53

what is going on right so instead of

15:56

beating yourself up about that it's like recognizing

15:58

oh wow okay when I get really stressed

16:00

and you know Let's say yesterday happens again

16:03

in two weeks, right? Is there anything you

16:05

can learn from yesterday? What you didn't do,

16:07

for example, that you could have done, that

16:09

could help you have less stress if a

16:12

similar day happens in two weeks? Yeah, I

16:14

mean, absolutely. Firstly, I wouldn't buy the Easter

16:16

Eggs Don special. Secondly, I would probably do

16:19

Pilates. Yeah, but also, did you take a

16:21

break in the day, right? Were you just

16:23

powering through and the stress just accumulated because...

16:25

That's another thing often when we're busy and

16:28

we're stressed we don't take breaks and all

16:30

those breaks even a five minute walk can

16:32

help reduce stress levels, reduce stress levels so

16:35

you're less likely to get to your threshold

16:37

and at your threshold is when you buy

16:39

the 22 Easter eggs right you don't buy

16:41

it when you're just a little bit stressed

16:44

you buy it when you're right at your

16:46

threshold so again I don't believe in the

16:48

concepts of wasted time anymore right in the

16:51

sense that we spend time. it wasn't a

16:53

waste. So your stressful day yesterday could be

16:55

a very powerful teaching moment for you. Could

16:57

be like, oh wow. So I've still got

17:00

that tendency when I'm really stressed to going

17:02

by 22 Easter eggs. might I not have

17:04

that much stress in my life if the

17:07

same events happen next time? Could I take

17:09

a walking break? Could I do a bit

17:11

of meditation halfway? On what I'm commuting home,

17:13

instead of listening to the news, I'm not

17:16

saying you did that, but could I put

17:18

on some relaxing music for five minutes or

17:20

put on a meditation app and just reset?

17:23

It's not as hard as we think it

17:25

is once we're aware of what's actually driving

17:27

our behaviors? On this concept of relaxation, I

17:29

think a lot of us, I mean, particularly

17:32

for women in our age categories, they've got

17:34

a lot on their plates, a lot of

17:36

them will be raising young children, a lot

17:39

of them will still have full-time jobs, and

17:41

even for us who don't have kids, like,

17:43

I feel as though my day is just,

17:45

go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go,

17:48

go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go,

17:50

I get to get to the. And the

17:52

concept of relaxation is one that we've had

17:55

many conversations about things like toxic productivity and

17:57

how we are not meant to be trying

17:59

to fit every single minute and every hour

18:01

of our day to be the most productive

18:04

that we can. And relaxation is something that

18:06

I feel quite uncomfortable with. Guilty. Yeah, I

18:08

think it is guilt. And there's definitely a

18:11

discomfort when I'm taking time, you know, time

18:13

that I would say would be time out

18:15

to try and... put myself into a relaxed

18:17

state. And it almost creates like a bit

18:20

of a cycle for me where I'm like,

18:22

okay, I know that relaxation is necessary so

18:24

that I can get good sleep and so

18:27

I can feel good and maybe say that

18:29

I can be good tomorrow. But then when

18:31

I'm actually trying to do the things that

18:33

relax me, I feel guilty about the fact

18:36

I'm not using the time more efficiently. Is

18:38

this something that you see a lot like

18:40

in your clinical practice? Oh yeah, especially with

18:43

women. I've seen this for years. wrote about

18:45

this and I actually said in that book

18:47

that one thing I've heard from female patients

18:49

over the years time and time again is

18:52

when I taught something about me time and

18:54

some time each day for it you know

18:56

I one of the things I would I

18:59

would often say, you know, can you find

19:01

10 minutes a day where you do something

19:03

unashamedly for you, not for your partner, not

19:05

for your kids, something that just you want

19:08

to do? And often if I was able

19:10

to persuade them and inspire them to go,

19:12

no, this is really important, give it a

19:15

try, they would come back and say, you

19:17

know what, you gave me permission to relax.

19:19

And it was a really interesting phrase I

19:21

heard, because I thought... I never thought my

19:24

job as a doctor was to give anyone

19:26

a permission to do anything, but I do

19:28

find that it's particularly with women, they would

19:31

often describe to me exactly what you just

19:33

said. I've seen definitely with moms loads of

19:35

times and I appreciate both you said that

19:37

you know you don't have kids so that's

19:40

not necessarily the reason why. But what I'll

19:42

often say to him is look if you're

19:44

feeling guilty about this, what I often encourage

19:47

them to do is what is it you

19:49

would love to do? Like absolutely love. Not,

19:51

you know, I want, I need to do

19:53

this because it's going to help me relax.

19:56

I need to do my meditation. All right,

19:58

forget all that for a minute. What would

20:00

you love to do? That sounds like fun.

20:03

Because we know from the research that regularly

20:05

doing things that you love makes you more

20:07

resilient to stress and at the same time

20:09

being chronically stressed makes it harder for you

20:12

to experience pleasure from those things that you

20:14

used to love. And so... I remember this

20:16

one patient, she was a four, I think

20:19

she was 44 years old, and she was

20:21

a mother, and she had a Crohn's disease,

20:23

inflammatory bowel disease, which is on the rise,

20:25

unfortunately, there's many reasons for that. But I

20:28

said to her, look, I really want you

20:30

to take 15 minutes each day for yourself,

20:32

I want you to do something that you

20:35

love, and literally for her it was getting

20:37

into salsa dancing, right? She'd always wanted to

20:39

do that. but she never thought she could

20:41

justify the time. She was doing so for

20:44

her husband, doing so for her children, doing

20:46

so for her community. She never felt... Yeah,

20:48

actually I'm worth it. it's okay to have

20:51

50 minutes a day for me. And just

20:53

doing that for four weeks, her symptoms, her

20:55

symptoms from chromosomes went down by over 50%.

20:57

Wow. And you know, didn't cure it, just

21:00

to be clear, but it was much more

21:02

manageable for her because her stress levels went

21:04

down. And so, you know, and I think

21:07

what better prescription to get from your daughter

21:09

than do something that you love, right? This

21:11

could be... Dancing, it could be playing your

21:13

guitar if you're into playing guitar, it could

21:16

be singing in your kitchen, dancing in your

21:18

kitchen, it could be watching your favorite comedian

21:20

on YouTube for 10 minutes and laughing. But

21:23

I often find that's a simpler and easier

21:25

way to get into relaxation sometimes, and it

21:27

can be very effective. Dr. Chattagie, your book,

21:29

The Four Pillar Plan, how to relax, eat,

21:32

move and sleep your way to a longer

21:34

healthier life. What a great name for a

21:36

book, because everybody wants that. Let's talk about

21:39

the four pillars, and how did you decide

21:41

that these were going to be the specific

21:43

special for? Well, so the four pillars of

21:45

health, sleep, and relaxation. And what I say

21:48

in that book, and I still maintain to

21:50

this day, is that you don't need perfection

21:52

in any one of the four pillars, but

21:55

you need balance amongst all four. Okay, you

21:57

need to think about those four. And I

21:59

think a really helpful piece of advice for

22:01

anyone listening to this right now is to

22:04

ask yourself, in which of these four pillars

22:06

do I need the most help? Most of

22:08

us intuitively know that if you ask, you

22:11

know, food, food, movement, sleep, and relaxation. Which

22:13

one is our kind of weak area? What

22:15

happens if you have two? Well, let's come

22:17

to that. If you've identified that, actually this

22:20

one's really bad, right? I would say you're

22:22

much better off making one change in that

22:24

weak area rather than trying to strengthen your

22:27

favorite area and you're... your strong area a

22:29

bit more. So what I would often see

22:31

is people, let's say people who are really

22:33

interested in nutrition, their diet's already, let's say,

22:36

85% goods. They're obsessed with taking the diet

22:38

from 85% good to 90 or 95% good,

22:40

but neglecting the fact that they're really sleeping

22:43

five hours a night. And I'm like, you

22:45

know what, keep your diet where it is,

22:47

a little bit of sugary stuff at the

22:49

weekends. Fine, don't stress about that. I would

22:52

much rather you focus on bringing that five

22:54

hours of sleep up to five and a

22:56

half hours or to six hours if you

22:58

can. Yeah, sure, seven hours if you can,

23:01

but you know, just a little bit of

23:03

improvement. I found over the years that it's

23:05

much more effective to strengthen your weakest pillar.

23:08

which pillar do I need the most work

23:10

in and pick one thing in that area

23:12

where you can start to make it better

23:14

in response to your question if you find

23:17

there's two areas well the first thing I

23:19

say is which one is weaker if you

23:21

know and if if you don't know I

23:24

would say yeah put your attention on those

23:26

two right don't worry about the other two

23:28

pillars just go these two reel a lot

23:30

of attention at the moment I don't know

23:33

let's say it was stress and sleep and

23:35

sleep for example you know, you would say,

23:37

okay, what's one thing I can do each

23:40

day to help me distress? And what's one

23:42

thing I can do that's going to help

23:44

me sleep better? And just focus on those

23:46

things. I think where we really get into

23:49

trouble is where we try and make loads

23:51

of changes in all of these four pillars

23:53

and we end up doing nothing. Brit, what

23:56

do you reckon you'd struggle with the most?

23:58

Sleep's definitely mine 100% and that's actually something

24:00

that I wanted to chat to you about.

24:02

Obviously men and women are wired very differently.

24:05

How do these pillars, or sorry, which category

24:07

or which pillar itself, affects women and men

24:09

differently? Yeah, that's a great question. I would

24:12

say stress, okay, is probably one of the

24:14

big ones where you see, A, I think

24:16

it's the thing that affects so many of

24:18

us. these days, you

24:21

know, the world health

24:23

organizers say that stress

24:25

is the health epidemic

24:28

of the 21st century.

24:30

I would say the

24:32

way that we can

24:34

often manage stress and

24:37

the way we look

24:39

at stress can be

24:41

quite different. I think

24:44

women absorb a lot

24:46

of the stresses off

24:48

the world around them

24:50

into their bodies. I

24:53

think, you know, it

24:55

really relates to what

24:57

you said before about

25:00

this guilt. I think

25:02

women are very much

25:04

all wired to want

25:06

to, you know, look

25:09

after the world around

25:11

them, you know, nurture.

25:13

And I think the

25:16

way modern society has

25:18

changed where there is

25:20

so many things to

25:22

do and so many

25:25

pressures. I think it

25:27

probably adversely affects women

25:29

more than men. And

25:32

we know that women,

25:34

for example, get higher

25:36

rates of autoimmune disease

25:38

than men and stresses

25:41

a big part off

25:43

that. Right. In fact,

25:45

Gabel Maté, Dr. Gabel

25:48

Maté trauma expert, he

25:50

calls women, I think

25:52

modern society stress absorbers,

25:54

right, which is really

25:57

interesting. He says there's

25:59

all this stress in

26:01

the modern world and

26:04

women seem to be,

26:06

I'm not saying men

26:08

have no stress to

26:10

be clear, but I

26:13

do think women are

26:15

quite unique with how

26:17

they take that stress

26:20

on and how much

26:22

it affects their bodies.

26:24

I feel like we

26:26

internalize it more. I

26:29

think so. Yeah, very

26:31

much so. And often

26:33

don't vocalize it, whereas,

26:36

you know, you can't

26:38

say men and women,

26:40

we're all different within

26:42

that, but broadly speaking,

26:45

I think men can

26:47

be better at compartmentalizing

26:49

things and just moving

26:52

on. Actually, I'll leave

26:54

that in its slot

26:56

there and I'm, I

26:58

can move on to

27:01

a different part of

27:03

my life and not

27:05

think about that. Whereas

27:08

I, I certainly my

27:10

experience with seeing patients

27:12

over the years is

27:14

that women don't do

27:17

that in the same

27:19

way. I think potentially

27:21

people can learn to

27:24

do that, but I

27:26

don't, I think men

27:28

more naturally tend to

27:30

do that. I always

27:33

think food, we can

27:35

think about differences between

27:37

men and women. And

27:40

again, these are just

27:42

broad generalizations, broadly speaking,

27:44

a lot more men

27:46

tend to thrive on

27:49

fasting plans than women,

27:51

right? That doesn't mean

27:53

women can't fast. Just

27:56

to be clear, I've

27:58

got many female of the years

28:00

who thrive on a certain form of fasting.

28:02

What do you mean when you say

28:05

thrive? Do you mean that they have

28:07

the results thereafter or that they actually

28:09

feel better and have better physical health?

28:11

Both really. Both. Because I think

28:13

there is this narrative now that

28:15

fasting is maybe okay for men

28:17

but it isn't something women should

28:19

do. I agree broadly speaking that

28:21

men and women deal with this

28:23

stuff differently. I think fasting can

28:25

be a stressor on the body.

28:27

right? It is a stress on

28:29

the body. So if you're already

28:31

experiencing lots of stress and we've

28:34

just mentioned how women may be

28:36

internalized stress in a different way to

28:38

men, fasting can be an additional stress

28:40

and tip them over. I have seen

28:43

that as well. But I do think

28:45

broadly speaking to that sort of general

28:47

question, what do men and women respond

28:49

differently to? I think the way they

28:52

deal with stress I think can be

28:54

quite different, but also the way that

28:56

they deal with fasting can be very

28:58

different as well. A lot of this is

29:00

cultural in the sense that, you know, these

29:02

things are quite punchy areas of people to

29:05

talk about, right? But there is a lot

29:07

of pressure on women these days, I think,

29:09

and I'm saying this as a man, this

29:11

is what I've observed with patients, what I've

29:13

observed with my wife and her friends. Let's

29:15

compare to, I don't know, 50 years ago,

29:18

right? Just to be clear, I'm not

29:20

saying we should be going back to

29:22

the way things were 50 years ago.

29:24

I'm the record. I'm just, just

29:26

to be super clear, life 50

29:28

years ago for all the potential

29:31

negatives, in some ways it was

29:33

simpler. Right? People knew what their

29:35

role was, whether we agree with

29:37

those roles or not, those roles

29:40

were quite well defined in

29:42

many cultures. And I think

29:44

those well-defined roles led to

29:46

a simplicity and... potentially lower

29:48

stress, whereas I think one

29:50

of the risks or one of

29:52

the unintended consequences of all

29:55

the increased opportunity now that

29:57

women are getting compared to 50

29:59

years ago. even saying it's as good

30:01

as it should be. I'm just saying

30:03

compared to 50 years ago. What I

30:05

find is that, yeah, women are working

30:07

out. They're doing great jobs. They're starting

30:09

amazing businesses. Yet, if and when they

30:11

choose to have children, they still feel

30:13

that maternal instinct of being the carer,

30:15

being the nurture, being the one who

30:18

wants to look after the kids. So

30:20

in the 50 years ago, perhaps broadly

30:22

speaking. their focus could just be on

30:24

that. Whereas now the focus is I'm

30:26

still trying to run my business, I'm

30:28

still trying to crush it on Instagram,

30:30

and I'm also trying to look after

30:32

the kids. That is a lot to

30:34

contend with, right? And I don't think

30:36

this has been planned, I'm saying this

30:38

is an unintended consequence, but I think

30:40

it's something we need to wrestle with

30:42

as a society. I think we need

30:44

to wrestle with this idea. It's like,

30:46

are we putting too much on women's

30:49

plates? How could we change that? But

30:51

I also, to defend men here, and

30:53

I'm a man saying this, but I

30:55

also do believe that men are also

30:57

struggling with the new gender roles, right?

30:59

Men are also struggling with, well, what

31:01

is my role now? I remember my

31:03

dad was never ever at a school

31:05

play, a school performance, like dad worked,

31:07

right? Dad's job was to earn the

31:09

money to feed us all. Whereas I

31:11

remember when my kids were young, when

31:13

my kids were young, I had a

31:15

busy job but I still felt huge

31:17

pressure and I wanted to be at

31:19

my children's performances. I wanted to be

31:22

at school at 2 p.m. to watch

31:24

them read out a recital lever it

31:26

might be. And again I'm not complaining

31:28

right I'm not complaining at all. But

31:30

I do think it's interesting and I

31:32

don't I think we need to have

31:34

honest conversations about how our roles have

31:36

changed and it's okay to say actually

31:38

was struggling with this and I think

31:40

saying that we struggle with this doesn't

31:42

mean we want it to go back

31:44

and it doesn't mean we're being sexist

31:46

it just means hey this is a

31:48

real problem let's come together and try

31:50

and figure out how we might move

31:52

forward with this did that all make

31:55

sense absolutely I also think what play

31:57

is in here is the way we

31:59

now live, right, is quite alien to

32:01

how we used to live. So the

32:03

nuclear family, for example, is a modern

32:05

invention. For most of human evolution, we

32:07

did not bring up kids by ourselves,

32:09

you know, in nuclear families. It was

32:11

in tribes, it was in communities. And

32:13

so this has a real... consequence, right?

32:15

Now, everything has plus points and negative

32:17

points. Pretty much everything alive. There's an

32:19

upside and a downside, okay? So one

32:21

of the upsides of many people were

32:23

saying now is we have independence, we

32:25

can move away, get a really good

32:28

job, go to the city, have all

32:30

this opportunity that we didn't have in

32:32

the past. Great, that's an upside. Downside

32:34

is we've often moved away from our...

32:36

parents, our siblings, our community, the people

32:38

who knew us, the people who would

32:40

support us. So the consequence of nuclear

32:42

families is so many couples, their relationships

32:44

are under huge stress after they have

32:46

kids. You know, I've seen it with

32:48

a lot of my friends, I've seen

32:50

it with countless patients, and it's not

32:52

that people don't love each other. it's

32:54

just it's too much for two and

32:56

this is on the assumption that there's

32:59

two parents living together which of course

33:01

much of the time isn't the case

33:03

but if two parents are working and

33:05

then they have children so look after

33:07

and they have no support nearby that

33:09

is full on you have no time

33:11

to nourish your relationship you know so

33:13

you know the partners become distant they

33:15

start niggling with each other that in

33:17

and if itself creates stress right and

33:19

so I think the only way we

33:21

get to a solution is by honestly

33:23

identifying what is the roots of this

33:25

problem and understanding that I don't think

33:27

we were designed to do all this

33:29

by ourselves that I think is one

33:32

of the root causes of why there's

33:34

so much sort of stress going on

33:36

and why we're struggling with these new

33:38

roles. On this topic of stress I

33:40

think for me that The first thing

33:42

that is affected when I feel stressed

33:44

is that I'm not able to get

33:46

as good quality sleep. And I think

33:48

that that is something that probably everybody

33:50

experiences. But another thing that I think

33:52

is specific to women is that these

33:54

hormonal fluctuations that we go through, whether

33:56

that be, you know, throughout a time

33:58

of life or even a time of

34:00

the month, I mean, I guess I'm

34:02

samples study of one. But I've definitely

34:05

experienced different sleep patterns and the quality

34:07

of sleep that I'm able to get.

34:09

I feel like it changes over the

34:11

course of my menstrual cycle and throughout

34:13

different periods of my life. What are

34:15

those changes? How are they affecting, you

34:17

know, firstly our stress levels and how

34:19

are they affecting our ability to get

34:21

quality sleep? When you mention the cycle

34:23

there, the menstrual cycle and how in

34:25

different stages of the cycle, you feel

34:27

different levels of stress and different amounts

34:29

of sleep. That is normal, okay, that's

34:31

completely normal. You know, your body is

34:33

harmonally different throughout the menstrual cycle. That's

34:35

one of the key differences between women

34:38

and men. We operate on these 24

34:40

hours cycles. Women operate on, you know,

34:42

traditionally this more 28 day cycle. Of

34:44

course, there's a bit of variation there,

34:46

whether it's 28 days or 26 or

34:48

30, 31. But, you know, broadly speaking,

34:50

that's a massive difference between men and

34:52

women. And I actually remember, I spoke

34:54

to Dr. Some Mindy Pelt on my

34:56

podcast about... maybe three years ago, she

34:58

was just breaking down the different stages

35:00

of a female cycle and how a

35:02

woman might want to eat differently at

35:04

various times. She was, you know, I

35:06

remember very clearly she was saying, you

35:09

know, the week before the periods, she

35:11

was saying actually, you know, most women

35:13

do crave carbs and it's okay to

35:15

actually indulge and have those carbs in

35:17

that week. But, you know, at the

35:19

start of the cycle, You may not

35:21

as much, so if you do want

35:23

to change a diet and go lower

35:25

carb, for example, then that's the time

35:27

to do it. But we also discuss

35:29

in that conversation, let's say in a

35:31

heterosexual couple, for example, let's say a

35:33

man and a woman, right? benefits of

35:35

actually being quite open about what stage

35:37

on someone's cycle someone is. So I

35:39

think for many years we thought well

35:42

it's you know it's not the man's

35:44

business you know what's going on with

35:46

a woman's mental cycle but we were

35:48

just hypothesizing well might it create more

35:50

harmony in relationships if the other partner

35:52

whether it was a man or woman

35:54

frankly doesn't really matter that knew that

35:56

actually yeah at this point you know

35:58

I'm not sleeping as well I'm a

36:00

bit more moody, I'm craving carbs. Actually,

36:02

then you know at those points, actually,

36:04

you could, if you, let's say if

36:06

that was my wife, for example, and

36:08

I knew, okay, this is the wheat

36:10

leading it's a period, and she's struggling

36:12

with her sleep, with that knowledge, I

36:15

can be more patient, I can, you

36:17

know, try to not take things personally

36:19

and go, oh, this is hormonal, she's

36:21

struggling with this, and I think increasing

36:23

that communication over these things, I actually

36:25

think. While some people may say it's

36:27

an infringement of privacy and it's no

36:29

one else's business, fine, I'm not here

36:31

to tell you know what everyone should

36:33

or shouldn't do, I just think it's

36:35

quite a nice thing to think about.

36:37

Actually, might that be helpful? And certainly

36:39

since that conversation, my wife and I

36:41

do communicate about this kind of stuff

36:43

and I would say it's really, really

36:46

helps because I have a much better

36:48

understanding of where she has in her

36:50

cycle and how that also affects her

36:52

relationship. Do women need more sleep than

36:54

men? As a rough generalization, I would

36:56

say in my experience, I would say

36:58

yes, right? That seems to be the

37:00

case, but I can't say it's the

37:02

case for everyone. Right, you just can't,

37:04

we're all individual, we're all different. So

37:06

I can't say that every woman needs

37:08

more seat than every man, but as

37:10

a broad principle, I do think women

37:12

tend to thrive on a little bit

37:14

more seat than men. Certainly, this is

37:16

again an n equals one, but in

37:19

my own marriage. I would say my

37:21

wife absolutely needs more seat than me.

37:23

good hour a night more sleep than

37:25

me and it's very noticeable if she's

37:27

not getting that. And I don't mean

37:29

that in a derogatory way just to

37:31

be really clear just so I'm just

37:33

genuinely it's sort of just I'm just

37:35

defending my wife that I'm not saying

37:37

anything negative it's just I would I

37:39

think we would both agree she does

37:41

seem more seek to me and that's

37:43

certainly what I've seen with my patients.

37:45

There was an interview that you did

37:47

with Dr Gable Matte and for me

37:49

it was so powerful and it was

37:52

something that really changed the way I

37:54

think and it was sort of around

37:56

you know he's in his late 60s

37:58

and it was around if you had

38:00

to go back and do something differently

38:02

in your life what would you do

38:04

and it was really powerful when I

38:06

watched it and he talked a lot

38:08

about he would do everything differently and

38:10

he would spend more time sitting in

38:12

joy and things that you know, his

38:14

family and the things that matter to

38:16

him because he just thought he had

38:18

to work, work, work. For me, I

38:20

really took a lot away from that

38:22

conversation and I've been thinking about it

38:25

a lot. Out of all the conversations

38:27

you've had over the years and all

38:29

the incredible people you've had the chance

38:31

to speak to, is there something or

38:33

someone or a piece of advice that

38:35

has really stuck with you and changed

38:37

the course of the way that you

38:39

think and act? Yeah, he wishes he

38:41

played more. Right? He, for all his

38:43

success, for all his expertise, for all

38:45

the fact that he's invited all over

38:47

the world to speak, and he sold

38:49

his squilian books, he again has regrets,

38:51

he wishes he'd live life. Definitely he

38:53

wishes he'd played more. I think it

38:56

goes back to what I said earlier,

38:58

about passion, right? Doing things that you

39:00

love, that you enjoy, is really good

39:02

for you. It helps you become more

39:04

resilient to stress as well. So I

39:06

think too much of the health conversation

39:08

these days. is about deprivation and restriction.

39:10

We don't talk enough about joy. Doing

39:12

things that you love is good for

39:14

you. It's really good for you. And

39:16

actually, it's something I wish we would

39:18

talk about a lot more. And actually,

39:20

when I come on tour to Australia

39:22

this summer, I will absolutely be talking

39:24

about this and the benefits of more

39:26

joy and passion. in your life. So

39:29

I've had four conversations with Gabra on

39:31

my podcast over seven years and they've

39:33

all touched me in different ways, but

39:35

if you say what was the conversation,

39:37

what was the piece of advice that

39:39

has had the most impact, it's what

39:41

I started the show with, right? It's

39:43

my conversation with Edith Eager that I

39:45

re-released recently for an episode 500 special.

39:47

That conversation changed me, fundamentally changed who

39:49

I was because... Not only did she

39:51

say those magical words, you know, wrong

39:53

good, I've lived in Auschwitz and I

39:55

could tell you the greatest prison you

39:57

will ever live inside is the prison

39:59

that you create inside your own minds,

40:02

but it literally, you know, I remember

40:04

coming out of that conversation and I

40:06

said to my videographer, I'm not the

40:08

same person anymore. The way I view

40:10

myself and the world has fundamentally changed.

40:12

Because for me... understanding that in a

40:14

death camp she could reframe her experiences,

40:16

it just really powerfully taught me that,

40:18

oh, wrong, you know what? Even on

40:20

your worst day, you're not in a

40:22

death camp. Right? So if she can

40:24

reframe her experiences in Auschwitz, you can

40:26

reframe them in your own life. And

40:28

that single realization... has changed the way

40:30

that I experience life. It's changed the

40:32

way I experience stress. And if I'm

40:35

ever struggling, I go, what's the other

40:37

perspective here? How can I take a

40:39

different perspective on this situation, which would

40:41

mean it would not be as stressful?

40:43

So I've had over 500 conversations. Many

40:45

of them have left a profound effect

40:47

on me. But if you make me

40:49

choose, it would still be that conversation

40:51

with that 93-year-old lady Edithika. What a

40:53

beautiful and powerful woman that's so special.

40:55

Thank you so much for joining us

40:57

today. We are so grateful to be

40:59

chatting to you from the other side

41:01

of the world, but we might not

41:03

have to chat to you from the

41:06

other side of the world for very

41:08

long because you are coming to visit

41:10

us in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane in

41:12

July. We are going to have

41:14

to have links to

41:16

Dr. Chatterjee's social media, and

41:18

tour in our show in

41:20

our show notes. you so

41:22

much you, thank you,

41:24

thank you so

41:26

much for joining us.

41:28

Guys, thank you

41:30

very, very much. chat

41:32

enjoyed my chat and

41:34

I cannot wait

41:36

to be in Australia

41:39

this summer. we're So

41:41

we're coming for

41:43

a family holiday and

41:45

those and those three dates. We

41:47

cannot wait. some if

41:49

you have some

41:51

time in Sydney, to

41:53

love to show you

41:55

around and if

41:57

you would like to

41:59

have a chat

42:01

in I mean, I I

42:03

mean, I don't necessarily

42:05

to to make you

42:07

worth more on

42:09

your family holiday, but

42:12

if you've got

42:14

the time, we would

42:16

love to have you with

42:18

it. Right, let me

42:20

check it out. And

42:22

if it out. yes,

42:24

I'll see you guys

42:26

in Sydney. I

42:28

look forward to it.

42:30

We would love

42:32

that. love care, guys.

42:34

Bye -bye. bye, bye-bye.