0:03

Hello, welcome listeners to another

0:05

episode of Listen, Learn, and Love

0:07

hosted by Richard Osler. My

0:10

guest on today's podcast joining

0:12

me from his home

0:14

in Snowflake, Arizona is my friend

0:16

Leon Crandall. Welcome to the

0:18

podcast, Leon. Hi, Richard.

0:21

Glad to have you here. And

0:24

you listeners know that I kind of introduced

0:26

my guest. As I mentioned, Leon is

0:28

from Snowflake, Arizona. Let me

0:30

just read you a message. We've been

0:32

trading messages for five years. I went back

0:34

and reread all of our messages, but this

0:36

one I'd like to share with our listeners. I

0:40

am out on my morning run

0:42

this morning and the past little while I've had

0:44

these impressions to reach out to see if I

0:46

could be a guest on your podcast. I'm

0:49

a latter -day saint and gay. I

0:51

am married and there are a few things in my

0:53

story that are a lot like others. but

0:55

also feel drawn to stay in the

0:58

church, stay married, keep my family together, and

1:00

strive to help bring understanding,

1:02

acceptance, and love for

1:04

everyone who is in the church, and

1:06

hoping to give space so that other

1:08

people, other people whose

1:11

experiences that I have experienced, there's a

1:13

place for them. So

1:15

that was a pretty brave

1:17

message for Leon to share

1:19

with me, and I'm honored people

1:21

open up. And so here we

1:23

are. on

1:25

this podcast a little

1:27

more about Leon. He's

1:30

a cosmopologist. He's been

1:32

in that profession for

1:34

30 years. I admire

1:36

the cosmotologists that I know if

1:38

I'm saying that word right. He grew

1:40

up in Mesa. He spent a lot of

1:42

time in North Carolina and

1:44

also more time in Brazil. In

1:47

Arizona, I'm reading ahead. He's a

1:49

return missionary. from Brazil. So

1:51

let's keep that straight. You lived

1:53

in the United States and served

1:56

in Brazil. He has been

1:58

married for 27 years, has eight kids,

2:00

four grandkids. He's

2:02

going to talk a little bit about

2:04

most men of Leon's age don't come out

2:06

in the dating process. Just probably what

2:09

he was canceled not to do and probably wasn't

2:11

in a position to fully accept who he

2:13

was. So most of

2:15

these stories with people, Leon's 50 year. stories

2:18

of coming out during the marriage and

2:20

I think Leon will share some of

2:22

that. He's also going to bravely talk

2:24

about being a survivor of sexual abuse. When

2:27

he told me he was willing to talk about on the

2:29

podcast, my heart just sort of grew

2:31

with empathy and courage and respect

2:33

for Leon's courage to do that

2:36

because there's other listeners that may

2:38

also be a survivor of sexual abuse

2:40

and feel they're alone and there's no hope for

2:42

them and they've done something wrong or it's all

2:45

their fault and it's not. And

2:47

so I'm grateful for Leon talking

2:49

about that. He's also

2:51

going to talk about that, you know, maybe

2:53

about the context of one speeding. That's why

2:55

he had same sex attraction or gay, but

2:58

how he feels about that now. I

3:01

had certainly thought that everybody, you

3:03

know, that people were straight and

3:05

I could just figure out the backstory,

3:07

like being a survivor of sexual abuse.

3:10

That's why they're gay. And it's more nuanced

3:12

than that. And Leon will share that. His

3:15

label. our same -sex attraction

3:17

slash gay, but only

3:19

using those labels in the context of

3:21

when he's talking about a sexual

3:23

orientation. He's also going to

3:25

talk about his own podcast, Coming

3:27

Unto Christ, and we'll link to

3:29

that in the show notes. So that's my introduction

3:32

for Leon. Is that okay? It

3:34

is. Thank you, Richard. We set

3:36

a prayer before we started, and

3:38

we just... These brave people that come on

3:40

the podcast are the heroes, but you listeners, I'm

3:43

grateful that hopefully...

3:45

You find some principles in

3:47

Leon's story that will help you

3:49

find more hope and perspective in your path in

3:51

life. So with that, I'll turn over to

3:53

Leon. Thanks, Richard.

3:56

I really appreciate that. And

3:58

just so you and everybody else

4:00

knows, I do wear

4:02

my heart on my sleeve. So

4:04

I get emotional quite often.

4:07

But you reading

4:09

that that I wrote

4:12

five years ago. I

4:15

actually had forgotten

4:17

that I had

4:19

written you something and

4:21

shared. I think

4:23

at the time I

4:25

was very, I

4:27

think afraid to open up. I

4:30

think I had just really

4:32

let my wife in fully 100

4:34

% at that point. and

4:36

wasn't in a place

4:38

to really open up

4:40

and share. So thank

4:42

you for that. It

4:44

actually was quite touching

4:46

that. I mean, it brought me

4:48

back. So that's awesome. So

4:51

like you said, yes, I

4:53

do live here in Snowflake, Arizona. It's

4:55

in the White Mountains. I

4:59

grew up actually

5:01

in Heber, which is

5:03

just 30 minutes from Snowflake.

5:05

So that's where my mom and

5:08

a few of my other

5:10

siblings reside. But I did. I

5:12

was born in Mesa, Arizona.

5:16

And we moved to

5:18

North Carolina when I was

5:20

two. That's where my mom is

5:22

from. My dad had

5:24

met my mother on his

5:27

mission. And when he

5:29

came home, he called on her and

5:31

she came out and they dated.

5:33

And the rest is history. They got

5:35

married. And

5:37

I

5:40

had two older brothers before me.

5:42

And so we returned back

5:44

to North Carolina where my mom

5:46

was from. And I just remember such

5:48

a great childhood. I

5:51

really felt that I had

5:53

a good childhood. I

5:57

do remember reflecting

5:59

as I've matured

6:01

and kind of in my process

6:03

in recognizing my same -sex attraction

6:05

and how to reconcile and

6:07

deal with it. I

6:10

do remember feeling

6:12

very drawn

6:14

towards the men on

6:16

television. And

6:18

so a lot of times

6:21

where I think as I was

6:23

processing through my my acknowledging

6:25

to my same -sex attraction that

6:27

I really kind of felt at

6:29

the time, you know, that, you

6:31

know, men were attractive. And I,

6:34

but it, as a kid, it

6:36

just, it never really, it

6:38

wasn't anything that I really focused

6:40

on, I guess, but

6:42

being there in North

6:44

Carolina, we were there

6:46

for about seven years. And during

6:49

that time, there was, a

6:52

young man. And I say

6:54

young man, I really

6:56

can't remember exactly. He may

6:58

have been in the

7:00

priest's quorum. I believe

7:02

he must have been one of

7:04

the older priests. Anyway,

7:08

I did

7:11

fall victim to sexual

7:13

abuse with him. And

7:16

I don't remember.

7:19

ever feeling afraid or

7:22

threatened. So

7:24

I think when I hear

7:26

a lot of stories about

7:28

people who are maybe sexually

7:30

abused, they have this

7:33

fear that

7:35

if they say something, it's

7:37

because the perpetrator threatened

7:39

them. He never threatened me.

7:41

I just never felt

7:43

like I needed to share.

7:45

because I didn't feel

7:48

like there was anything wrong.

7:51

And maybe that was part

7:53

of just our connection.

7:55

I don't know. And I

7:57

think a lot of

7:59

my shame does come from

8:01

that because I never felt

8:03

like I was being

8:05

abused at the time. I

8:08

didn't feel like there was anything wrong. And in

8:10

fact, I think because

8:12

that was my first sexual experience,

8:14

I think that um you

8:16

know it was special and

8:18

I think even today as

8:21

a 50 year old man

8:23

um I think

8:25

that caused this shame

8:27

because I feel that way

8:29

um but I'm

8:31

able to process and and

8:34

not hold on to that

8:36

very long but um That

8:39

was, as a teenager though, that

8:41

was a little different because I

8:43

think internally there was a lot

8:45

of shame and fear and I

8:47

didn't know how to deal with

8:49

it. But while living

8:51

in North Carolina, that experience,

8:53

it wasn't just a one -time

8:55

thing. It happened repeatedly. It

8:58

also happened with a

9:00

cousin. And

9:02

I think these experiences, I

9:04

think later on in my life

9:06

as I've processed through them, I

9:09

did feel like,

9:12

what was I

9:14

exhuming? Was there

9:16

a sign on my head

9:18

saying, hey, come

9:21

molest me? I mean, I'm

9:23

open. I don't know.

9:26

That was just part of something

9:28

in my mind as I

9:30

was growing up. When

9:32

I was nine, our

9:34

family moved back to

9:37

Arizona where my dad's

9:39

from. He grew

9:41

up in Heber and we

9:43

moved back. And so I

9:45

was in the fourth grade. I

9:48

loved musicals.

9:51

I loved theater. I loved

9:53

being able to perform.

9:55

And maybe that was because

9:57

I was, you know,

10:00

trying to escape maybe really

10:02

what had happened and

10:04

kind of mask it. I

10:06

don't know, but I

10:08

do know that I did

10:10

love musical theater and

10:12

I just wanted to perform

10:15

all the time. So

10:17

we lived with my

10:19

grandparents for a short time before

10:21

we got a house in Heber and my

10:23

dad was a school teacher. He

10:26

happened to teach me. in

10:28

the sixth or seventh grade.

10:30

That was quite interesting to

10:33

have your dad be your

10:35

teacher. I

10:37

remember not following

10:39

the rules. and oftentimes

10:41

getting pulled out into the

10:43

hallway. And that's when we were

10:45

able to get swats in

10:47

school. So I remember fearing that

10:49

my dad would walk around

10:51

the corner as I'm grabbing my

10:54

ankles and getting paddled in

10:56

the hallway. But

10:58

I loved growing

11:00

up in the small town, Heber. But

11:04

I will say as growing up

11:06

in a small town, You

11:09

have limited resources. People

11:12

don't. Well, people do

11:14

talk, but it's just

11:17

something you just kind

11:19

of hold within yourself.

11:22

I do remember being different

11:24

than other kids. I

11:26

remember the kids, you

11:28

know, they wanted

11:30

to play smear the

11:32

queer and as they would call

11:34

it. And I remember you

11:37

know, running in so excited that these boys

11:39

were wanting to play with me. And I

11:41

would run in and tell my mom that,

11:43

you know, these guys, they want

11:45

to play Smear the Leon, right? I just,

11:47

it was just one of those things that I

11:49

just kind of felt so connected that they wanted

11:51

to play with me. But

11:54

it's interesting as developing, as

11:57

adolescents is developing, you

11:59

know, I began to get

12:01

this stronger, connection

12:05

to to men for whatever

12:08

reason I remember you

12:10

know being in the locker

12:12

room I remember seeing

12:14

older guys and I just

12:17

remember being I think

12:19

I don't know if it

12:21

was male envy I just

12:23

remember really being attracted to

12:25

you know their bodies and

12:27

how fit they were and

12:29

and I believe that that's

12:31

kind of where that began

12:33

and so I had this

12:35

first encounter of being sexually

12:37

abused and then now I'm

12:39

now growing and I'm developing

12:41

and now I'm starting to

12:43

see other people other guys

12:46

and then I start to

12:48

make this interconnection and and I

12:50

think that it

12:52

wasn't really

12:54

talked about like I don't I

12:57

think I just kind of kept that to myself. But

13:00

I think as

13:03

I developed into

13:05

puberty, because

13:07

all of

13:09

those occurrences were

13:11

happening, I think

13:13

it just sort

13:15

of shifted to making

13:17

it a little

13:19

more concrete that I was

13:21

attracted to men. not

13:24

really able to talk to anybody.

13:27

I didn't know how to say

13:29

anything. I didn't know how

13:31

to talk about any of it. I

13:34

do remember turning to

13:36

substance abuse because I

13:39

felt that they accepted

13:41

me. I felt that that

13:43

group was more real. And

13:46

maybe I was just telling myself that.

13:48

I'm not quite sure, but...

13:51

I just remember feeling a

13:54

part of. And

13:56

so I was

13:58

pretty into cigarettes

14:00

and alcohol at

14:02

a young

14:04

age. And I

14:06

remember one day

14:09

in school, I had

14:11

come back in with two of

14:13

my friends. We were in the

14:15

parking lot and we were smoking

14:17

in the car on campus. Two

14:22

guys who I know very

14:24

well, they were in our ward

14:26

in Heber and they went

14:28

in and they told my dad,

14:31

and of course you could

14:33

smell it. I mean, I

14:35

couldn't hide. And

14:37

I just remember my

14:39

dad, you know, putting

14:41

me up against the wall

14:43

and just grounding me from

14:46

from speech and debate tournaments, which I

14:48

loved. And that was the one

14:50

thing that really was my lifeline. And

14:53

I just remember

14:55

just being just devastated.

14:58

And I don't know

15:00

what caused me

15:02

to feel like there

15:04

was a connection

15:06

between me smoking and

15:08

drinking. and being

15:10

molested. I think

15:12

maybe it finally was

15:14

coming to a head

15:16

where I was like,

15:18

huh, what happened to

15:20

me in North Carolina

15:22

probably wasn't right. And

15:25

then the shame, like I

15:27

just did not know how

15:29

to say anything. And so

15:31

I would just mask what

15:34

I was feeling. maybe

15:37

just pushing it away with drinking

15:39

or smoking. And I do remember

15:41

talking to some friends and saying

15:43

how I just felt like I

15:45

wanted to just kill myself because

15:48

it would just, I didn't wanna

15:50

talk about it. And I don't

15:52

think that they even really knew

15:54

why, but I remember my friend

15:56

saying, why would you ever do

15:58

that? That is so selfish. And

16:00

I'm really grateful to her

16:03

for saying that to me because

16:05

it really got me out

16:07

of going deeper down that rabbit

16:09

hole. And

16:11

so after my dad

16:13

grounded me, what seemed

16:15

like eternity, I went

16:17

home and my mother,

16:20

who is very

16:23

intuitive, like

16:25

she just knew

16:28

something was

16:30

off. My

16:33

mom had, I mean, she had

16:35

nine children. And

16:37

here I am, the third oldest,

16:40

and she's seen that there's something

16:42

wrong with me. So she

16:44

takes me into her bedroom, and I'm a

16:46

sophomore in high school at this point. And

16:50

she sits me on the

16:52

bed, and she just says, what's

16:54

going on? And I just,

16:56

what felt Richard like hours? Like,

16:58

I really felt like I was

17:00

in her bedroom for hours, not

17:02

saying a word. I

17:05

just couldn't bring myself to

17:07

say the words. Oh,

17:10

that was so hard. Gosh,

17:12

I don't even know why it was so hard.

17:14

It wasn't even my fault. But

17:17

sitting on that bed, I

17:20

think maybe the fear of

17:22

what it would do to

17:24

my mother. I

17:26

don't know. It wasn't something that

17:28

I was mentally thinking like

17:30

if I tell my mom is

17:33

she gonna blame herself like

17:35

I didn't think any of that

17:37

but maybe um deep down

17:39

that's why I I kept myself

17:41

from saying anything but but

17:43

man Richard I just remember sitting

17:45

there and I just I

17:48

just said the words I just

17:50

said I was molested and

17:52

oh my word my mother She

18:02

just

18:04

broke down.

18:09

I'm crying more because of that

18:11

than what happened to me

18:14

because it just devastated my mother.

18:17

And I can only imagine what

18:19

was going through her mind in

18:21

thinking. I wasn't

18:23

there enough. I wasn't present. I

18:25

wasn't watching. I wasn't protecting my

18:27

baby. All of these things I'm

18:30

sure went through my mother's mind.

18:34

But she just held me

18:36

and she just questioned why.

18:38

Why did it have to

18:40

happen to you? It's

18:44

silly, but I still get

18:46

emotional over that. It

18:52

was a relief, but

18:54

yet it was still very

18:56

difficult because after that,

18:58

we never talked about

19:01

it again. And

19:04

again, growing up in a

19:06

small town and not having resources, of

19:08

course, this is in the 80s. Who

19:11

talks about this? We'll

19:13

just brush it under the rug

19:15

and we're not gonna talk about

19:17

it. And I do

19:20

not blame my parents at all. To

19:22

this day, I love my parents.

19:26

They are the most

19:28

incredible people. And

19:30

I just can't imagine what

19:32

it was like for them to

19:35

hear that. But

19:38

after that, you know,

19:40

she hugged me. We went

19:42

along and I had

19:44

to go to work. and

19:47

I was in the car

19:49

with my dad and I

19:52

will not fault my dad

19:54

for this because I think

19:56

he was only doing the

19:58

best that he could because

20:00

I felt like I had

20:03

been turning to substance abuse

20:05

to feel better about myself

20:07

after you know what had

20:09

happened and he just simply

20:11

said do two wrongs make

20:14

a right. And

20:16

that was the last we ever talked

20:18

about it. I still

20:20

didn't stop the substance

20:23

abuse for quite some

20:25

time. But when

20:27

I did stop

20:29

the substance abuse, it

20:31

was I

20:34

was ready. Like it

20:36

was, I was ready

20:38

to make a change.

20:40

And that happened probably

20:42

the summer of my

20:44

sophomore year going into

20:46

my junior year. And

20:48

I really believe, Richard,

20:50

that that was where

20:52

the first time that

20:54

the Savior's healing began. And

20:57

it's a process. It

20:59

didn't stop there and it

21:01

wasn't complete. Because from

21:04

that point, yes, I

21:06

stopped my substance abuse. I was

21:08

in a much better place. I

21:11

loved seminary. I latched

21:13

on to the gospel.

21:15

I latched on and

21:17

I gained my testimony

21:19

and I was good.

21:23

There was it was very

21:25

pornography was a very difficult

21:27

thing to come by back

21:29

then it was magazines So

21:31

there were some and so

21:34

pornography wasn't a huge issue,

21:36

but masturbation was a big

21:38

one again, you know how

21:40

to how to process what

21:42

had happened as a kid

21:44

and then what to deal with.

21:46

And now as I'm older,

21:48

I recognize that it was just

21:50

a coping mechanism. It was

21:52

just something that I was turning

21:54

to feel better or to

21:56

forget what I was feeling or

21:58

to try and feel maybe

22:00

what my abuser had felt when

22:02

he was molesting me. And

22:04

I know that sounds sick and

22:07

twisted. but that's the

22:09

reality of someone who has

22:11

been abused who didn't ever

22:13

think that it was wrong.

22:16

And I will say

22:18

that that is

22:20

probably has been the

22:23

most challenging aspect

22:25

of my being abused

22:27

and being married

22:29

has been probably the

22:31

most difficult challenge

22:33

is feeling that way.

22:35

And I still

22:38

periodically go to counseling

22:40

so that I

22:42

can continue to process

22:44

through that, right? But

22:47

that'll come later

22:49

as I share a

22:51

little bit. But

22:53

I remember from that

22:55

point, graduated high

22:57

school. And

23:00

I had a year off

23:02

before I was called to

23:04

serve in Brazil, the Belo

23:06

Horizonte mission. And I

23:08

was terrified going

23:10

to a foreign country.

23:13

Actually, I was the only one

23:15

out of the nine children

23:17

that went foreign, which was so

23:19

interesting. But I'm grateful

23:21

for my mission. I loved it.

23:23

I learned so much. But

23:26

once again, an occurrence

23:28

happened when my companion, when

23:30

I was sick, we

23:32

went to the hospital and

23:34

my companion left me alone. And

23:37

the doctor did things

23:39

to me in the hospital.

23:42

And I don't know that

23:44

he was, you know, what

23:46

he was doing, what he was thinking, like,

23:49

because none of what I was experiencing

23:51

had anything to do below the belt. But

23:54

he definitely

23:56

had his

23:59

way. It

24:01

wasn't horrible, but it

24:04

was still nonetheless. Once again,

24:07

this is now

24:09

one more thing

24:11

that's telling me

24:14

that I have

24:16

some sign that

24:19

is saying, hey, You

24:22

can have your way with me. It's

24:24

not a big deal. It's

24:26

happened before. It's

24:28

fine, anyway. I

24:30

kept that quiet. I didn't say

24:32

anything. Through

24:34

my whole mission, everything was

24:37

okay. I

24:39

did have a

24:41

companion that had suggested

24:43

that I was

24:45

gay, and so I

24:47

had a really hard time with

24:49

that. So I

24:51

would talk to my mission president about that. And

24:55

he just didn't

24:57

understand. I

25:00

don't know. He was just kind

25:02

of, I mean, he did his

25:04

best. And I'm grateful for him.

25:06

He was such an incredible mission

25:08

president. Shout

25:11

out to President Smith. I

25:13

love him. But his advice,

25:15

I think to me, was

25:17

to, you know, don't ever accept

25:19

callings in young men's, don't

25:21

ever, you know, be in theater,

25:24

because if you are, you

25:26

know, it's just gonna be super

25:28

hard for you. So I

25:30

think some of his advice was,

25:32

you know, trying to protect

25:34

me, but, you know, it certainly

25:36

wasn't going to stop those

25:38

feelings. But once again, it

25:40

was like, Maybe it was

25:43

like, well, once I get married, it'll

25:45

all go away. Thinking,

25:47

right? And again, this is in

25:49

the 90s. And we

25:51

don't talk about those things,

25:53

you know? Still, I

25:55

think that was probably the gist of it.

25:57

And maybe it wasn't shame. Maybe it

25:59

was just the fact that it was just

26:01

like, we just don't talk about sex.

26:03

We don't talk about things that happen to

26:06

us. We don't talk about, right? And

26:08

so that was the real difficult

26:10

aspect of it. So I don't

26:12

know if it was shame, but whatever.

26:16

It must have been because

26:18

I met my wife in

26:20

the singles ward. We

26:22

were in a calling together and

26:24

I felt like a big

26:26

part of it was like the

26:28

next step when we come

26:30

home from our mission is to

26:32

get married. And

26:35

I felt like everything

26:37

was okay. I

26:39

hadn't had a real problem with masturbation

26:41

for a long time, but I think

26:43

as soon as I came home, that

26:46

kind of came

26:48

back. And again, I don't

26:50

know if it was another coping mechanism. Again,

26:53

feeling not processing

26:55

really what had

26:57

happened, but I

26:59

met her. We

27:01

dated and we

27:03

got engaged rather

27:06

quickly. And

27:08

we got married and

27:10

everything seemed okay. Like

27:13

it's like nothing. I

27:16

mean, everything seemed okay.

27:19

And so I think I

27:22

did tell her about my

27:24

sexual abuse. And that

27:26

was just kind of the

27:28

extent of it. I didn't

27:30

go into further detail of

27:32

my feelings and what I

27:34

was really attracted to. Because

27:38

I think I was just trying to

27:40

push that aside, like, oh, it'll go away.

27:42

It'll be fine. Once

27:45

I'm married, it'll be OK. And

27:48

I do

27:50

remember having

27:53

a feeling

27:55

of not

27:57

fear, but

28:01

I think, just kind

28:04

of. feeling like I

28:06

was doing what was

28:08

right and what was

28:10

expected, but not sure

28:12

how everything was going

28:14

to work. But

28:17

everything seemed okay. We

28:20

had our first

28:22

daughter and just I

28:24

was doing hair,

28:27

working in the salon

28:29

and I'm not

28:31

sure. I think

28:33

those feelings still

28:36

were there pretty strongly

28:38

and I think

28:40

my wife had a

28:42

kind of a

28:45

feeling and we processed

28:47

through that. And

28:49

I think I felt like we

28:51

were moving forward, like we had

28:53

processed. Never did I say that

28:56

I was attracted to men. I

28:58

didn't say that I was gay.

29:00

I never said any of that,

29:02

but somehow we just kind of

29:04

processed through it. And

29:06

we had our second

29:08

daughter and everything seemed

29:10

okay. And then

29:12

we decided that we

29:15

wanted to adopt. I

29:18

had a client at the

29:20

time who was a lawyer

29:22

of the mother of two

29:24

boys and somehow that fell

29:27

into our laps and we

29:29

went from two having two

29:31

daughters to then having four

29:33

kids and having two boys

29:35

and they of course came

29:38

with their baggage and I

29:40

mean not their fault but

29:42

I think it sort of

29:44

then kind of started having

29:48

me kind of

29:51

revert inward and, you

29:53

know, just

29:56

not being able to have

29:58

anybody to talk to about

30:00

what had happened. And

30:03

I have one of

30:05

my dearest friends. I

30:07

remember having a conversation

30:09

with him and I remember

30:11

him talking about him

30:13

being molested by his grandfather

30:15

and I just remembered

30:18

saying, and you're not attracted

30:20

to men. He's like,

30:22

no. I was like,

30:24

how is that possible? So at the

30:26

time I thought, because I had been

30:28

molested, I thought that that made me

30:30

attracted to men. But then when he

30:32

told me that, I was really kind

30:34

of blown away. And so

30:36

I started seeing his counselor,

30:38

which was helpful. But

30:42

I think The

30:44

fact that we had adopted two

30:46

more kids, so we had four,

30:48

and those kids had baggage, it

30:51

was really a lot.

30:53

So I didn't really

30:55

utilize the counselor fully

30:57

to process through all

30:59

of what I had

31:01

experienced. So again, put

31:03

that on the back burner, and

31:06

we were

31:08

just plugging

31:10

along. And

31:12

then something kind

31:15

of happened where I

31:17

felt like we

31:19

needed to adopt more

31:22

kids. And

31:24

maybe it was because

31:26

I needed to feel

31:29

like I was making

31:31

up for the vasectomy

31:33

that I got prematurely,

31:35

selfishly. And

31:37

so I felt like, well, this will

31:39

make up for it, but I really felt

31:41

like we needed to have more kids.

31:43

I really did see more kids running around.

31:46

So I approached my wife,

31:48

I told her and she

31:50

was very apprehensive at first,

31:52

but then felt like, okay. And

31:55

it took a couple of a

31:58

year or more before we got

32:00

a phone call three days before

32:02

Christmas. And there

32:04

were three boys

32:06

that needed a

32:08

home. And

32:10

there was a set

32:13

of twins. They were four. And

32:15

then their youngest brother was two. And

32:19

I was at work.

32:21

It was on a Wednesday, I remember. And

32:24

I remember getting that phone

32:26

call and my wife, I got

32:28

home. She had to run

32:30

out to Target and go get

32:32

car seats, go

32:35

get clothes, diapers,

32:38

like everything, because we were not

32:40

prepared. And this was three

32:42

days before Christmas. And

32:45

again, you know, my

32:48

optimism, you

32:50

know, this will be great. It'll be

32:52

fine. I just remember

32:54

my wife had to speak on

32:56

that Sunday and I had to

32:58

sing and oh my word, it was

33:00

a lot. I'm

33:03

surprised we're alive.

33:06

It was a lot. But

33:09

we plugged along

33:12

and about a month

33:14

later, the person

33:16

that would come and

33:18

do visits with us, the

33:20

in -home visits, said

33:23

that they had a sister

33:25

who was in a group home

33:27

that had been longing to

33:29

be with her brothers. She

33:31

had been the present

33:33

mother for her brothers for

33:35

a really long time. Their

33:37

mother was in and

33:39

out very, she

33:42

would just disappear. And so our

33:44

daughter had to take care of

33:46

them. And we

33:48

were very, very afraid because

33:50

she was 11. And

33:52

what did she experience? What

33:54

did she see? What did she

33:56

know? And anyway,

33:59

so it was really a little scary with

34:01

our two oldest daughters and then the two

34:03

boys. And then this girl coming

34:05

in and she's the same age as

34:07

our second oldest daughter and the boy

34:09

that we adopted. So it was just

34:11

like, oh, my word, this is going

34:13

to be crazy. But

34:15

we relented and she came and

34:17

it was a little struggle,

34:19

but it was awesome. But

34:23

a year later, we

34:26

were asked if we wanted

34:28

to adopt them. And

34:31

again, in my optimism,

34:33

and I think it was

34:35

more just making sure

34:37

that I'm making a right

34:39

or a wrong right. I

34:42

just felt like this needs

34:44

to happen. But I, Richard,

34:46

I couldn't imagine sending them

34:48

anywhere else. I

34:51

just I couldn't for everything

34:53

that we had taught them and

34:55

and had we we had

34:57

experienced it with that year. And

34:59

and of course, thinking because

35:02

they've now, you know, accepted the

35:04

gospel, you know, or will

35:06

have anyway. I just, but

35:09

my wife was very like,

35:11

I don't know that I

35:13

can do this. And I

35:15

pushed and she relented and

35:17

we adopted them. And

35:20

a year later, we

35:22

ended up having them sealed

35:24

to us. So we

35:26

went from four kids to

35:28

now eight kids. And

35:31

it was a crazy

35:33

household. It was fun.

35:35

It was full of

35:38

laughter and it was just

35:40

incredible to be able to

35:42

have a large family. And

35:44

our two daughters, we were

35:46

always very aware about what

35:49

they were feeling. And we

35:51

wouldn't have done it if

35:53

they had felt like they

35:55

couldn't. And I just

35:57

remember our daughters saying,

35:59

you know what, our lives

36:01

are so much better

36:03

because we've brought other kids

36:05

into our home. We

36:08

love them, and there

36:10

are siblings. And it

36:12

really, Richard, has just

36:14

been an incredible experience

36:16

aside from dealing with

36:18

three teenage boys now.

36:21

That is a struggle.

36:23

But it really, truly

36:25

has been a joy.

36:29

So, but during all of that,

36:31

I think there was a lot

36:33

that was going on. So I

36:35

tried counseling again. And then my

36:37

wife and I both tried counseling

36:39

and trying to work through that.

36:41

And there was still the underlining

36:43

that I still wasn't talking about.

36:45

I wasn't opening up. I wasn't

36:47

letting her in. And

36:49

my oldest son

36:51

had a friend

36:53

who was gay.

36:57

was talking to him and he

36:59

wanted to become a member

37:01

of the church and he was

37:03

just really afraid and I

37:05

was like Hey, it's okay that

37:07

you feel that way like

37:09

you can become a member of

37:11

the church We just don't

37:13

act on those feelings like it's

37:15

okay And so I just

37:17

remember helping him through that at

37:19

the same time, you know

37:21

opening up just enough so that

37:23

My wife was comfortable enough.

37:25

Well, he was finally,

37:28

he got baptized, which

37:30

was awesome. And I just

37:32

felt like I was

37:34

doing the world a great

37:36

service, right? Here I

37:38

am, same sex

37:40

attracted. I'm experiencing all

37:42

this and I have to

37:44

be able to use

37:46

it for a purpose. And

37:49

if I can't use it for a purpose,

37:51

then why am I existing? Why

37:53

am I here? It's

37:56

kind of what I was thinking. And

37:59

at that time, I wanted

38:01

to just completely bust out

38:03

and just help everybody and

38:05

help everybody see like, it's

38:07

okay. You can feel

38:09

this way and you can

38:11

still be in the church and

38:13

you can keep your covenants

38:16

and you can do all it,

38:18

but... wife wasn't ready at

38:20

the time for me to completely

38:22

be all the way transparent

38:24

to everybody. And

38:26

I was then called

38:28

to be a seminary

38:30

teacher and there was

38:32

a therapist. He was

38:35

the seminary coordinator and he

38:37

would come and I was

38:39

able to talk to him

38:41

and he has a son

38:43

who's gay. And it

38:45

was just really great how I

38:47

could start to see like the

38:49

Lord was placing specific people in

38:51

my life at the right time

38:54

to help me know what I

38:56

was supposed to be doing because

38:58

of what I had experienced and

39:00

what I felt. And

39:02

it was just a great

39:04

growing time for myself. I

39:07

think it was a good

39:09

growing time for my wife,

39:11

although I wasn't fully open

39:13

and transparent. It

39:15

was just, but it was the

39:17

beginning. And I do remember

39:19

having an opportunity where I was like,

39:22

Heavenly Father, what do you think

39:24

of me? Like, I didn't

39:26

know. I had never asked that question

39:28

before. I was like, I

39:31

truly don't know what you

39:33

think of me because of

39:35

all of this that's happened

39:37

and what I feel. And

39:40

I remember being in... Creek

39:42

Canyon, and that's in Sedona

39:44

in Arizona. It's absolutely beautiful.

39:47

I was by myself. I had walked

39:49

up the creek and I was

39:51

just saying an audible prayer and I

39:53

leaned up against a rock. And

39:56

when I asked that

39:58

question, I got a phone

40:00

call. And

40:04

it happened to be

40:06

a brother in our ward

40:08

who knew nothing. Nothing

40:10

of what I was going through,

40:12

what I had experienced, any of

40:14

it. And he said, Leon, my

40:17

son just came home off

40:19

of his mission and he's

40:22

gay and he's struggling. Can

40:24

you help him? Richard,

40:28

in that moment, I

40:30

knew what God

40:32

thought of me. And

40:36

man, that was empowering.

40:39

And I just knew, like, I

40:41

have to be able to

40:43

open up and share to help

40:45

people. I mean, regardless,

40:48

yeah, okay, I'm still gonna

40:50

feel attracted to guys, right? But

40:52

it's how I react to,

40:54

you know, what I'm experiencing is

40:56

really what it comes down

40:58

to. And so I went over.

41:00

one morning and his son

41:02

got in the truck with me

41:04

and we sat and we

41:06

talked for about a half an

41:08

hour. And I

41:10

just felt so good that

41:12

I was doing some good.

41:15

But most importantly, I

41:17

knew that God knew

41:19

who I was and

41:21

what I had experienced. He

41:24

was going to allow me to

41:26

use it for good. And that

41:28

was just, that took

41:30

me quite a while, like

41:32

that just carried me for quite

41:34

some time. And then

41:36

still wasn't able to fully

41:39

feel like I could be

41:41

fully transparent and open to

41:43

everybody. I was trying to

41:45

be respectful to my wife

41:47

and I think she was

41:50

just a little afraid of

41:52

maybe what people were thinking.

41:55

And again, I

41:57

totally understand. Again, part

42:00

of that shame, I think, was

42:02

the fact that I wasn't completely 100

42:04

% transparent before we got married. And

42:06

so I carried that for all

42:09

of those years. And so

42:11

that was on me. And

42:13

so I do believe that that

42:15

did cause a lot of shame

42:17

because of that and not really

42:19

giving her the full ability to

42:21

open up. choose

42:24

me fully knowing all

42:26

of me when in reality

42:28

she only knew a

42:30

portion of me and so

42:32

that was a lot

42:34

of shame and so I

42:36

again I think to

42:38

to help you know cope

42:40

with that masturbation was

42:42

a big a big deal

42:44

because it was how

42:46

I coped and again I

42:49

think it all just stemmed back

42:51

from my childhood. And I don't

42:53

want to say this as an

42:55

excuse. This is just reality. This

42:58

is just, I think,

43:00

how a lot of people

43:02

will deal and cope

43:04

with the real difficult things

43:06

that have happened to

43:08

them in their life. pornography

43:13

wasn't really an issue. I

43:15

mean, but then I think

43:17

images, you know, I would

43:19

justify by by looking at images

43:21

that, you know, I would, I would,

43:23

you know, say, well, it isn't

43:26

so bad, right? But again, it just

43:28

caused me to stay in a

43:30

state of being stuck or in that

43:32

contention state, you know, where Satan

43:34

keeps me, you know, and I can't

43:36

move forward. I, you know, I'm

43:38

going to feel bad. And so I'm

43:40

going to, you know, keep this

43:43

vicious cycle going. So

43:45

we moved and

43:47

it was a

43:50

good move. And

43:53

I had met a really good

43:55

friend of mine there in our

43:57

ward. And

43:59

it was interesting,

44:02

the first Sunday, I

44:04

saw him and

44:06

we connected eyes

44:08

and I knew.

44:11

that he was gay and

44:13

he said he knew that

44:16

I was gay and it

44:18

was interesting we became running

44:20

partners but it was so

44:22

healing because I wasn't attracted

44:24

to him. We didn't

44:26

have any, you know, it wasn't

44:28

any of that, but it was

44:30

a safe place to be able

44:33

to open up and fully share.

44:35

For the first time I had

44:37

somebody that understood he was married,

44:39

had five kids, so he knew.

44:41

And so it was so great

44:43

to be able to just fully

44:45

open up and share. And then

44:47

it was great because then he

44:50

told his wife, and then that

44:52

in turn allowed me to finally open

44:54

up and tell my wife that

44:56

he was experiencing the same thing I

44:58

was experiencing. So once again, God

45:00

knows me, God loves me, he knows

45:02

what I need. And

45:04

so he allowed us to

45:06

become these really dear

45:08

friends. And it was so

45:11

healing. It

45:13

still didn't keep me from, you know,

45:16

dealing with a lot of still

45:19

the shame, I think of

45:21

it all. And

45:23

so it was just

45:25

super, super neat to be

45:27

able to have that

45:29

for a time. And then

45:31

they moved. And

45:33

then I was fully able

45:35

to just be open. So

45:37

I wrote my wife an

45:39

email and I literally just

45:41

said the words. that I

45:43

had never said before that

45:45

I was gay, that

45:47

I wanted to stay married,

45:50

that I just needed to

45:52

be fully transparent. And

45:54

so that caused a little

45:56

bit of a challenge over time.

45:58

But I think it needed

46:00

to happen so that it would

46:03

finally normalize it between us

46:05

so that she could allow me

46:07

to be fully transparent with

46:09

everybody else. There was

46:11

another young man, another young man

46:13

that the mother had heard

46:15

that I was experiencing this and

46:18

her son was experiencing it.

46:20

So she brought her son over.

46:23

So it was the mom, the son

46:25

and myself and my wife and

46:27

we sat there and we talked and

46:29

I pled with him to live

46:31

the gospel to stay in

46:33

the church. He could still stay

46:35

in the church and feel

46:37

the way that he was feeling.

46:39

And I just really felt

46:41

like I was fulfilling some kind

46:44

of purpose so that I

46:46

was doing something that the Lord

46:48

needed me to do so

46:50

that I didn't feel like what

46:52

had happened to me was,

46:54

you know, all

46:56

negative and all bad. I

46:59

had to make something positive come

47:01

out of what had happened to

47:03

me. Otherwise, what's my purpose? Why

47:05

am I here? And

47:07

I really, truly

47:09

believe that God has

47:11

made it known

47:13

to me that, and

47:15

I'm not, again,

47:18

I'm not somebody to

47:20

a poster child,

47:22

but I do believe

47:24

that the Lord

47:26

needs me to step

47:28

up and let

47:30

people be aware that

47:32

you can be

47:34

gay and stay in

47:36

the church and

47:38

keep your covenants and

47:40

rely on their

47:42

Savior, Jesus Christ, to help

47:45

heal them. And that's really

47:47

what it's all about. And

47:49

so since then, I've

47:51

gone to a couple of

47:53

men's retreats that have

47:56

completely helped heal me. through

47:58

my Savior. It isn't what

48:00

they do there, but it's

48:03

the way that they help

48:05

point you to your Savior

48:07

Jesus Christ. And

48:10

just really quick, while

48:12

I was there, I

48:14

remember sitting in one

48:17

of the sessions

48:19

and they were teaching

48:21

about how

48:25

to approach the Savior

48:27

and tell Him how

48:29

and what had happened

48:31

to you. And for

48:33

the first time, Richard, in my life, it's

48:35

always, and I think we as members

48:38

of the church are so great at,

48:40

it's always Heavenly Father. Like

48:42

I'm approaching Heavenly Father in prayer, I'm letting

48:44

Heavenly Father. But why

48:46

can't I have a moment

48:48

where I can sit,

48:50

whether it's on a rock,

48:53

under a tree, in

48:55

my bed, wherever, in

48:57

a dark place, wherever, and

48:59

just say, Jesus, this

49:02

is what

49:04

happened. This

49:07

is how I feel. This

49:10

is the anger that

49:13

I feel. This is the

49:15

fear that I feel.

49:17

All of these things and

49:19

actually have a conversation

49:21

with the one person that

49:24

knows exactly what you

49:26

feel and how you've experienced

49:28

all of that. And

49:30

for the first time, Richard,

49:32

I was able to

49:34

go out in the woods

49:37

and I sat on

49:39

a rock and I just

49:41

remember imagining my Savior

49:43

Jesus Christ sitting next to

49:45

me and being able

49:48

to tell him what it

49:50

felt like. how

49:54

sad I was that

49:57

it was wrong. It

50:03

was just a healing moment,

50:05

but I never thought that

50:07

I could actually ask Jesus

50:09

to sit next to me

50:11

and have me tell him

50:14

everything that I was feeling.

50:17

It was always deferred to Heavenly Father,

50:20

say it in prayer, but

50:22

In that moment I'm telling you that

50:24

was the most healing moment where

50:26

I was able to open up and

50:28

fully tell my Savior Jesus Christ

50:30

what it felt like and how it

50:32

felt and what he thought of

50:34

me and I needed him. And

50:37

I can reflect on

50:39

that quite often and I

50:41

can do it often.

50:43

I don't feel embarrassed to

50:45

say, Jesus, I need

50:48

you here. I

50:50

need some some

50:52

strength. I need some help.

50:56

But in all of this,

50:58

I don't know, it

51:00

was a few years back,

51:02

there was something that

51:04

kind of kept nagging at

51:06

me that I needed

51:09

to find the person that

51:11

abused me. It

51:13

wasn't super difficult, but

51:15

I found him and

51:17

I messaged him. And

51:20

then I did a video chat

51:22

with him. And

51:24

I had to ask

51:26

the questions. Why

51:29

me? Did

51:31

you do it to somebody else?

51:35

And that I

51:37

needed him to

51:40

know that I

51:42

forgave him. And

51:46

I had asked if it happened to

51:48

him. And

51:51

after that conversation, he had

51:53

shared with me that he

51:55

had had a partner for

51:57

16 years who had died.

52:00

And I felt for him. And

52:05

it was probably

52:07

a week, a week

52:09

later, his brother had

52:11

sent me a message

52:13

and said that he was

52:15

found dead in his

52:18

car. I

52:31

was just really grateful that

52:33

I had the moment and the

52:35

prompting to find him and

52:37

tell him that I forgave him.

52:41

Because I don't know what

52:43

road he walked, what shoes

52:45

he wore, and I will

52:47

never judge him for that. That's

52:50

for my savior. But

52:56

he too is God's son.

53:01

And I just

53:03

needed him to

53:05

know that even

53:07

though I was

53:09

left with hurt

53:11

and scars that

53:13

will continue to

53:15

make challenges in

53:17

my marriage, but

53:19

I just needed

53:22

him to know

53:24

that I forgave

53:26

him. And

53:31

so after

53:34

this men's retreat,

53:36

things just

53:39

really started to

53:41

feel so

53:43

much better for

53:46

me. I

53:48

was listening to Kurt Frankham's

53:50

book. I love Kurt Frankham.

53:52

He is one of my

53:54

heroes. He wrote,

53:56

Is God Disappointed in Me? completely

54:00

changed my view

54:02

of God. And

54:05

I don't believe God has

54:07

ever disappointed in us. I

54:09

believe that he loves us. He

54:11

understands the difficult hard roads

54:13

that we are on in

54:15

this life. And it

54:17

just gives me peace to

54:20

know that his love never stops.

54:23

I was introduced to

54:25

Rob Farrell through

54:27

Leading Saints. And

54:29

I have become a very, very

54:32

close friend to Rob Farrell. I

54:34

love that man. That man

54:36

has changed my life. And

54:40

all of this, Richard, is

54:42

because Heavenly Father is so good.

54:48

He knows me. He knows what

54:50

I need. And he

54:52

has given me these men in

54:54

my life that I have

54:56

needed. so that

54:58

I can heal, so that

55:00

I can understand the gospel

55:03

of Jesus Christ in such

55:05

a way that gives me

55:07

hope instead of shame and

55:09

fear. He's

55:14

been able to teach me principles

55:16

of the gospel that I would have

55:18

never understood, such as what's the

55:21

purpose of Satan, and that

55:23

is to cause contention in the hearts of men. And

55:25

that's what he does for

55:27

everyone. And anything that

55:30

is negative that has happened

55:32

to us, he will attach onto

55:34

that and he will use

55:36

that against us. And that's what

55:38

causes the shame. That's what

55:40

causes us to be stuck in

55:42

this cycle of contention. I

55:45

will forever be grateful to Rob Farrell

55:47

for teaching me that. And

55:50

I am grateful for the patience

55:52

that the Lord has given me to

55:54

not react

55:56

so quickly to things

55:58

that maybe what

56:00

I hear from maybe

56:02

what the world

56:04

has to say about

56:06

the way gay

56:08

people should live. Because

56:11

I will tell you

56:13

in the challenges of

56:15

coming out and coming

56:17

or inviting my wife

56:19

in fully made it

56:21

super easy. to

56:24

where I could have easily

56:26

turned and said, I'm

56:28

gonna be happy. I'm

56:31

gonna go be with a

56:33

man because that's what's going to

56:35

fulfill me. That's what's going

56:37

to make me happy. And

56:39

so I'm so grateful for

56:41

the Lord giving me patience

56:44

to wait on the Lord,

56:47

to wait and to allow Him

56:49

to teach me and to

56:51

allow Him to give me

56:53

something to look forward to and

56:55

to then learn, and then give

56:57

me something else, and then another,

56:59

and then another, and all of

57:01

these things have built. And

57:04

then people, he

57:06

brings these people into my

57:08

life that teach me something that,

57:12

oh, that is

57:14

a possibility. So I

57:16

think before I

57:18

felt like, I

57:20

was gay because I was molested. I

57:23

didn't hold on to that very long. Then

57:26

I thought, well, maybe

57:28

I was born that way.

57:30

And that felt okay to

57:32

be able to process, but

57:34

it didn't sit. Like

57:36

I'm like still that, if

57:39

I felt Richard, like

57:41

if God made me

57:43

this way, then he

57:45

is creating, someone

57:48

to fail to make it back to

57:50

the celestial kingdom if he made me

57:52

gay. Because if he

57:54

made me gay, then he has to

57:56

make a way for me to be

57:58

happy. That would be the most unfair

58:00

God out there if he made me

58:02

gay. And so I could

58:04

not live like that. I could not.

58:07

So that didn't sit right. And

58:09

then I have a dear

58:11

friend in our ward who is

58:13

a counselor, and he introduced

58:15

me to Dr. Robinson. And

58:18

Dr. Robinson taught all

58:20

of those things about emotionally,

58:22

all things, emotional nature

58:24

versus nurture, all of those

58:26

things. And then it

58:28

just, he presented something else

58:30

and he said, I

58:33

teach my clients that

58:35

if you can learn to

58:37

think that it is

58:39

just something you know how

58:42

to do, it changed

58:44

my perspective. Oh,

58:46

so. I can actually say

58:48

that this is some sort

58:50

of a gift, like, wow.

58:53

Like, I'm ambidextrous.

58:55

Like, I'm left -handed, I

58:57

can right -hand it, and I can

58:59

right -hand it. Oh, okay. So

59:01

I can be attracted to

59:03

men, and I can be attracted

59:05

to women. Okay. It's

59:07

something I know how to do. And

59:10

when he presented that, and I

59:12

haven't fully processed through all of

59:15

it, but that really changed a

59:17

lot for me because it gave

59:19

me the ability to think that

59:21

God is fair. And

59:23

I recognize that we

59:25

live in a fallen

59:27

world and that we

59:29

are subject to things

59:31

that are not fair.

59:34

So if that's the case,

59:36

then it's how I

59:38

react to what I know

59:40

I can do. So

59:43

if I know that I can

59:45

be with a man, It's how

59:47

I react. I can either choose

59:49

that or I can not, right?

59:51

And so that's the key. That's

59:54

what keeps

59:56

me fully engaged

59:59

in the

1:00:01

gospel of Jesus

1:00:03

Christ. That

1:00:05

gives me hope because now

1:00:08

no longer do I think

1:00:10

that God made me this

1:00:12

way. He did create my

1:00:14

spirit, but he also allowed

1:00:16

me to come to a

1:00:19

fallen world where I am

1:00:21

subject to allow things that

1:00:23

I don't understand and to

1:00:25

allow me to react, to

1:00:27

choose in which way I'm

1:00:30

going to go. And

1:00:32

that is more freeing

1:00:35

to me than being put

1:00:37

into categories of all

1:00:39

of these other things. and

1:00:42

it just doesn't sit well with

1:00:44

me. And so

1:00:46

I'm forever grateful for that. I'm

1:00:49

grateful for other people

1:00:51

who I've come in

1:00:53

contact with, who are

1:00:55

doctors and other people

1:00:57

who think that way,

1:01:00

and other people who

1:01:02

recognize once they've learned

1:01:04

about this principle, they've

1:01:06

decided that, you know, living

1:01:08

the gay lifestyle isn't right.

1:01:10

And so they've, you know,

1:01:13

they've chosen to turn away

1:01:15

from it. And it's

1:01:17

just fascinating to me to

1:01:19

see that. And again,

1:01:21

I'm just so grateful for

1:01:23

a loving God who

1:01:25

knows me personally and was

1:01:27

patient with me and

1:01:29

allowed me to sit with

1:01:31

things for a while. I'm

1:01:35

not done with my

1:01:37

process. I'm not done growing.

1:01:39

I'm not done becoming. And

1:01:43

so it doesn't keep

1:01:45

me from still being

1:01:47

attracted to men and

1:01:49

having those often pangs

1:01:51

of wishing that I

1:01:53

could be with a

1:01:55

man. But that's, I

1:01:57

think, just part of

1:01:59

the process. And

1:02:01

I think it

1:02:03

said in 2 Nephi

1:02:05

chapter 2 verse

1:02:08

24, it says,

1:02:10

Behold, all things have been

1:02:12

done in the wisdom of

1:02:14

him who knoweth all things. Like

1:02:17

God knows everything.

1:02:19

He's aware. And I'm

1:02:21

just so grateful for

1:02:24

that knowledge, Richard. It's

1:02:26

just... a great time

1:02:28

to be alive. It's a

1:02:30

great time to be

1:02:32

a member of the Church

1:02:34

of Jesus Christ of

1:02:36

Latter -day Saints, and I'm

1:02:38

not perfect, and I still

1:02:40

fall short many times.

1:02:42

I still numb out to

1:02:44

stupid things because I'm

1:02:46

still dealing with shame or

1:02:48

whatever, but I'm just

1:02:50

grateful for a Savior who

1:02:52

is so loving and

1:02:54

who who

1:02:57

suffered so much so

1:02:59

that we could become

1:03:01

like him. And I'm just

1:03:03

so grateful for that. Thank

1:03:07

you, Leon. You

1:03:11

did a great job of sharing your

1:03:13

story. And there's a lot of people that

1:03:15

you brought to tears. And so thank

1:03:17

you for your courage. One of the words

1:03:19

I wrote, I'll go through

1:03:21

my notes as Leon was sharing

1:03:23

is just brave with big exclamation points.

1:03:27

I love your focus on

1:03:29

shame and your courage to

1:03:31

be open and vulnerable about

1:03:33

your younger years, being

1:03:36

a survivor of sexual

1:03:38

abuse and also being open

1:03:40

about substance abuse and

1:03:42

masturbation. And yeah,

1:03:44

those, we teach your sins and you're

1:03:46

teaching the same thing, but I also thought

1:03:48

you did a good job of, you

1:03:51

didn't wake up one day and say, what

1:03:53

can I do to displease God? These

1:03:56

are sort of coping mechanisms. I

1:03:59

agree or escapes. I agree with

1:04:01

your words to deal with painful things.

1:04:03

And so those still need to

1:04:05

be solved. But I thought

1:04:07

you did a great job of just being open

1:04:09

about some of your journey there. And

1:04:11

I call that bottom of the iceberg

1:04:13

stuff. Sometimes the top of the iceberg

1:04:15

stuff is the sins we see in ourselves

1:04:18

or others. And often for long

1:04:20

term healing, we have to get to the

1:04:22

bottom of the iceberg and that takes Jesus. and

1:04:24

sometimes therapists. I

1:04:26

thought you were open about

1:04:29

your abuse by a doctor

1:04:31

in Brazil. And

1:04:33

then the added shame of not only

1:04:35

being a survivor, but is there some sign

1:04:38

on me that says abuse me? I

1:04:41

thought that and you can't share that with

1:04:43

anybody. So here you are, you

1:04:45

know, leaving the doctor's office in

1:04:47

Brazil as a missionary, just you can't

1:04:49

tell anybody what just happened to

1:04:51

you. and the shame of that. And

1:04:53

so I'm just, I'm glad you're

1:04:55

live. I'm respect for talking

1:04:57

about that because there's other people that

1:04:59

are walking a similar road that

1:05:01

have never known how to process what

1:05:03

happened to them. So

1:05:06

that just led me to the

1:05:08

word brave, super brave and super courageous

1:05:10

for talking about some of your

1:05:12

journey. I love your story of adoption.

1:05:14

That's a whole nother podcast, but

1:05:17

I just love that you've adopted. you

1:05:20

know these six kids and to have

1:05:22

eight kids and I love your two

1:05:24

oldest daughters how they feel about this

1:05:26

big family so that you also say

1:05:28

it's not easy and it's taken work

1:05:30

but you recognize that this is a

1:05:32

beautiful family love story and six people's

1:05:34

lives are better plus your two daughter

1:05:36

you know your first two daughters I

1:05:38

don't want to draw a line in

1:05:40

the sandwich between biological and adopted kids

1:05:42

you didn't so I'm not trying to

1:05:44

do that either Then

1:05:47

you said something or tried to write

1:05:49

down word for word because it was

1:05:51

super, super powerful. Heavenly

1:05:53

Father, what do you think

1:05:55

of me? And

1:05:59

then, you know, this phone call you

1:06:01

got from your buddy. We just knew

1:06:03

intuitively it could reach out to you

1:06:05

because in the moment of their family

1:06:07

crisis, they somehow figured out

1:06:09

Leon Crandall could help with their

1:06:11

son coming home from his mission

1:06:13

and out as gay. how

1:06:17

you recognize through personal revelation that

1:06:19

I can use this for good and

1:06:21

it's empowering and it's sort of

1:06:23

the opposite of shame. So

1:06:25

I just thought that was just

1:06:27

super powerful and something I've seen

1:06:29

other guests do is just what

1:06:31

you did is Heavenly Father, what

1:06:34

do you think of me? And

1:06:36

often those conversations are incredibly

1:06:38

healing and filled with hope and

1:06:40

perspective and purpose and just

1:06:42

the opposite of shame. So

1:06:45

I thought that was terrific. Then

1:06:47

you have these other experiences on your

1:06:49

road to healing that a brother

1:06:51

moved in your ward and you both

1:06:53

figured out you were gay, married

1:06:55

to straight women, and you went running

1:06:58

together. But you also said, just

1:07:01

in passing, I wasn't sexually attracted to him.

1:07:03

And I think sometimes we make

1:07:06

the wrong assumption that every gay

1:07:08

person is sort of sexually attracted

1:07:10

to every other gay person. Just

1:07:12

we don't do that with straight people.

1:07:14

We know that not every straight woman

1:07:16

or straight man is sexually attracted to

1:07:18

everybody in their circle. So why do

1:07:20

we sometimes pigeonhole gay people or sort

1:07:23

of just identify, we identify them as

1:07:25

their sexual orientation and sort of think

1:07:27

they're out of control or something. And

1:07:29

that's not true, as you know. So

1:07:31

here you became running partners, I believe

1:07:33

your wives connected. And I just think

1:07:35

it's so great to have people walking

1:07:38

the same road. So there's

1:07:40

a need for community, whether it's

1:07:42

organically happens like that or the men's

1:07:44

retreats or some of the things

1:07:46

like North Star Gather that can help

1:07:48

people walking same roads. Your wife

1:07:50

probably has enjoyed that too. I'm

1:07:53

connecting with other women in

1:07:55

mixed orientation marriages. They're support groups

1:07:57

because they need community and

1:07:59

often that helps them fill purpose.

1:08:02

Then I just love this

1:08:04

conversation you had with Jesus

1:08:06

and sort of This

1:08:08

is kind of you. You're somewhat

1:08:10

of a theologian because you recognize that

1:08:13

you can have a conversation with Jesus,

1:08:15

and we say he's our Savior, he's

1:08:17

our elder brother, he wants to heal

1:08:19

us. Yeah, we pray to our

1:08:21

Heavenly Father, but it doesn't mean we can't

1:08:23

have this conversation with Jesus that you had. So

1:08:26

that's consistent with our doctrine. And

1:08:28

it is correct. We talk in

1:08:31

D &C about Christ descended below all

1:08:33

things, so he understands. all

1:08:35

of our pain even if there's

1:08:37

not a scriptural reference to our

1:08:39

specific road. So you understand

1:08:41

Christ and you know that we don't

1:08:43

burden Christ when we talk about

1:08:45

our pain. He's already paid the price

1:08:47

to help heal us. So

1:08:50

I just thought that was a

1:08:52

homerun segment Leon to talk about

1:08:54

Jesus and how you feel, including

1:08:56

feeling angry and disappointed and discouraged.

1:08:59

I just thought that was terrific

1:09:01

and sometimes culturally we don't do

1:09:03

that. But I think

1:09:05

we should do that. And

1:09:08

Christ, I think, wants to

1:09:10

be there to heal us. He's

1:09:13

already paid the price. You

1:09:15

know, the atonement's in the past. He's given

1:09:17

us this great gift and some of his

1:09:19

atonement is to heal us some sin, but

1:09:21

a lot of it's just to heal us

1:09:23

some woundedness. So a lot of

1:09:25

your journey, very literally, your journey is

1:09:27

about sin. Most of your journey is about

1:09:29

the woundedness of being gay. and

1:09:32

your journey to find the opposite

1:09:34

of shame, hope, and healing. Your

1:09:37

story of reconnecting with

1:09:39

your abuser is unique, and

1:09:42

I think both of us

1:09:44

would probably say that may not

1:09:46

be everybody's journey, but your

1:09:48

spiritual impressions to connect with him

1:09:50

are unique and valid and

1:09:53

thoughtful, and healing probably to him,

1:09:55

as you mentioned, and you. And

1:09:57

then these empathetic questions you asked

1:09:59

him, Leon, an insight into your heart,

1:10:01

that you recognize there was probably some

1:10:03

backstory in his life that was

1:10:05

causing this behavior and you wanted to

1:10:07

understand that. And I bet

1:10:09

that was incorrect. You know, obviously

1:10:11

he knew what he did. Sounds like

1:10:13

he didn't deny it, but I

1:10:15

just thought that was awfully gracious and

1:10:17

awfully kind and just an insight

1:10:20

into your heart and your goodness and

1:10:22

your wanting to heal other people. Didn't

1:10:25

excuse the abuse. You didn't do

1:10:27

that. It doesn't mean everybody needs to

1:10:29

do that. But I just

1:10:31

thought that was really neat. I love

1:10:33

your shout out to our friend Kurt Frankham. We're

1:10:36

going to link to his book in the show

1:10:38

notes. His God disappointed in me. He's been on

1:10:40

the podcast. What a terrific

1:10:42

book. And

1:10:44

then just this, you know, you said

1:10:46

hope instead of shame and fear.

1:10:48

And for those of you who listened

1:10:51

to LDS conference, we're recording this

1:10:53

right after conference. Sister Rune, you talked,

1:10:55

one of the better talks I've

1:10:57

heard about shame and worth and

1:10:59

those of you that saw this

1:11:01

she just lifted her hand during

1:11:03

her talk and said my worth

1:11:05

is set and then just kept

1:11:08

it up there of all these

1:11:10

things that could happen to us

1:11:12

and our worth is still set

1:11:14

and I believe that so much

1:11:16

and for her to visually communicate

1:11:18

that was great and you know

1:11:20

that it's not theoretical for you

1:11:22

Leon it's you know that and

1:11:24

it just helps so many other

1:11:26

people that are questioning their worth

1:11:28

questioning how God feels about them, and

1:11:31

so it's just really vulnerable and

1:11:33

brave. Vulnerability brings vulnerability

1:11:35

listeners, as Bernay Brown talks about,

1:11:37

and being vulnerable with others helps

1:11:39

heal each other. Often it's our

1:11:41

vulnerability that creates real, authentic connection

1:11:43

and allows healing to come into

1:11:45

our lives, and that can't happen

1:11:47

in every situation. Some circles, it's

1:11:49

not going to happen, but I

1:11:51

think you've done a great job

1:11:53

of just talking about how that

1:11:55

can happen, how it has happened

1:11:57

for you, and this long

1:12:00

journey of self -love, self -acceptance, staying

1:12:02

in the church, staying in your marriage,

1:12:04

and owning who you are. But

1:12:07

that is just remarkable. It helps younger people

1:12:09

walking this road, helps other people on the same

1:12:11

road. So there's

1:12:13

a lot of people that love to

1:12:15

jump out through the podcast, earphones, or

1:12:17

headphones they're listening to, and say your

1:12:19

courage to share what was some of

1:12:22

your story. helps me not feel alone,

1:12:24

helps me not feel I'm the only

1:12:26

one, helps me realize God loves me

1:12:28

and the Savior's there for me and

1:12:30

gives me principles that can help me

1:12:32

my way forward. And there may be

1:12:35

listeners that they're straight, but they've also

1:12:37

dealt with shame and self -loathing and

1:12:39

feel like they're outside of God's love.

1:12:41

And so the principles you teach scale

1:12:43

to all of us is Latter -day Saints,

1:12:45

Leon. It's just an

1:12:47

honor to have you on the podcast. I'm

1:12:50

in the show notes will link

1:12:52

to your podcast will link to Kirk

1:12:54

Frankham's book and Leon other thoughts

1:12:56

you'd like to share in closing. Yeah,

1:12:59

I think Richard just

1:13:01

really quick. I think that

1:13:03

if whether you're gay,

1:13:06

whether you're dealing struggling with

1:13:08

something, I think that

1:13:10

if we can approach it

1:13:12

by the fact that

1:13:14

it is a gift. then

1:13:20

I think we can utilize

1:13:22

it and turn it for good

1:13:24

and use it to help

1:13:26

other people. Whereas oftentimes I think

1:13:28

we think of it as

1:13:30

a curse and that's where the

1:13:32

shame sets in and it

1:13:34

causes us to run from it

1:13:36

and it causes us to

1:13:38

want to numb out because of

1:13:40

the shame and because we're

1:13:42

just so hurt by it. But

1:13:44

I think that if we

1:13:46

can utilize, what

1:13:49

we have, whether

1:13:52

it's God -given or whether

1:13:54

it's something that we've

1:13:56

inherited because we've been born

1:13:58

into a fallen world, if

1:14:01

we can utilize that and

1:14:03

turn it for good, then I

1:14:05

think we can do more

1:14:07

good and have less shame. And

1:14:10

I think we can

1:14:12

continue to press forward.

1:14:16

and we can press forward to

1:14:18

the tree of life, as

1:14:20

Lehi says, and we can fall

1:14:22

down at the Savior's feet.

1:14:24

And I can tell you, in

1:14:27

Lehi's dream, when

1:14:29

anyone who fell down at

1:14:31

the tree after partaking

1:14:33

of the fruit, none

1:14:35

of those, none of

1:14:38

them, turned and went to the

1:14:40

Great and Spacious Building. None

1:14:42

of them. And so

1:14:44

I think that if we can

1:14:46

utilize and take what we

1:14:48

have, what we've been given, whether

1:14:51

it was God -given or because

1:14:53

of just what we've gathered

1:14:55

in this world, then we can

1:14:57

use it for good and

1:14:59

fall down at the Savior's feet

1:15:01

and not listen to other

1:15:04

people that are trying to get

1:15:06

us to think that there

1:15:08

are ways better that, you know,

1:15:11

that we have to live a certain way,

1:15:13

that we have to do it their

1:15:16

way, or we have to do it. And

1:15:18

I just think that the more we

1:15:20

stay at the base of the tree or

1:15:22

at the feet of the Savior, the

1:15:24

more people will want to stay

1:15:26

with us. And

1:15:29

I think, like President Nelson

1:15:31

said, this is the greatest

1:15:33

time in the church

1:15:35

where we're gathering Israel. This

1:15:37

should be more of the time

1:15:40

where we're wanting people to stay, stay

1:15:42

with us rather than leave and

1:15:44

try to go find out for

1:15:46

themselves, but stay.

1:15:50

And that's just my thing.

1:15:52

Like I just, I

1:15:54

really want people to stay

1:15:56

regardless of what they

1:15:58

have figured out or haven't

1:16:00

figured out because eventually

1:16:02

it will get figured out.

1:16:06

That's great. Tell, and the show notes, well,

1:16:08

should we put any of your social

1:16:10

media in case someone wants to find you?

1:16:12

Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You

1:16:14

can find me, Leon

1:16:17

Crandall, Messenger.

1:16:21

I wish that

1:16:23

I had meant

1:16:25

to, you can go to

1:16:28

the website on Coming Unto Christ, and

1:16:30

there's an email there. You can email

1:16:32

me there. You can go onto the

1:16:34

website there. and

1:16:36

you can reach me that way or

1:16:38

you can reach me on messengers through Facebook. I

1:16:41

don't do a whole lot of

1:16:43

like Instagram or any of that,

1:16:45

but I am on there as

1:16:48

a hairdresser, but most people can

1:16:50

reach me on Facebook or... can

1:16:53

call me. I'm

1:16:55

open. I have no problem giving

1:16:57

my phone number out. So that's great.

1:17:00

So we will put in the show

1:17:02

notes Leon's Facebook and we'll also

1:17:04

put that website. So you can get

1:17:06

to, from that website, you can

1:17:08

get to his email and contact Leon

1:17:10

if you want to. And Leon,

1:17:12

thank you. I love

1:17:14

the gathering of Israel that you

1:17:16

brought up just right now. And

1:17:18

I've shared this on prior podcasts,

1:17:20

but... of Israel, to me, includes

1:17:22

LGBTQ, SSA, Latter -day Saints. They're

1:17:25

Israel. They're part of the covenant. They're

1:17:28

good trees and good fruit representing

1:17:30

Jacob 5. And I have probably

1:17:32

done a little scattering of that

1:17:34

group in my life with gay

1:17:36

jokes and things that were not

1:17:38

accurate. And so part of the

1:17:40

purpose of this podcast is to

1:17:42

help us better gather LGBTQ, Latter

1:17:44

-day Saints. Because as you can

1:17:46

see, from Leon, you

1:17:48

know, the fruit of his life

1:17:50

is good. And the roots he

1:17:53

creates strengthen the whole, you know,

1:17:55

Jacob five, um, using that metaphor.

1:17:57

And so we need to do

1:17:59

a better job of helping LGBTQ

1:18:01

Latter -day Saints feel like we're,

1:18:03

better off with us. Um,

1:18:05

strengthen us. Everything about the gathering visuals

1:18:07

represented in this group too. So is

1:18:09

my new friend. Well, my friend who's

1:18:11

been my friend for a long time,

1:18:13

but now He's, you know, know

1:18:16

more of his story. just a hero

1:18:18

to me. Thank you, Leon

1:18:20

Crandall, being on the podcast. Thank

1:18:22

you, our listeners for listening and

1:18:24

sharing this others. And this is

1:18:26

Richard Osler off from another episode

1:18:28

of Listen, Learn, and Love.