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1:02

and but also I heard some of

1:04

you walking into an empty pool. I might

1:06

get a cold punch. Hey

1:20

everybody, welcome to Literally. Today

1:23

we are going into the

1:25

hottest corner of show business. Get

1:28

your fire retardant

1:30

clothes on because it

1:32

does not get any

1:35

hotter in the

1:37

zeitgeist than white

1:39

lotus and

1:41

we have Jason

1:44

Isaacs on the show

1:46

and we are going to

1:48

Open up the lotus

1:50

and find out what the hell

1:53

is going on right here

1:55

on literally What's

2:02

happening Jason? How are you? Well, it's

2:04

so nice to be intimate with you 100

2:06

miles away with 12 people between us

2:08

and a mountain of equipment. I know I'm

2:10

so sorry I was supposed to come

2:12

in to be with you today and then

2:14

I'm in the middle of building a

2:16

house and I found Let me just picture

2:18

you're wearing a tool belt and you're

2:20

up on your topless drinking diet coke and

2:22

all that stuff. I am... I don't

2:24

know if you've seen Once Upon a Time

2:26

in Hollywood when Brad Pitt wears the

2:29

tool belt. Very much. I have it on

2:31

my pillowcase. Yeah,

2:33

that's me. I'm up there

2:35

sucking in my pooch. And

2:38

yeah, no, I'm one of the

2:41

least handy men you'll ever meet.

2:44

Do you do what I do? I sometimes think I can fix things

2:46

at home because my wife can't do any of it. I think

2:49

I can do it and I do it and then I come home

2:51

a week later and I go, wait, and

2:53

she's had someone come in and fix my

2:55

fixings. So let's come on, come

2:57

in and line things up properly or just redo

2:59

the drawers or whatever. Dude, the way I

3:01

look at it, we were gifted with other gifts.

3:03

I don't know about that. I met the

3:05

person yesterday who made Station 11. Did you see

3:07

Station 11? It's another one of these shows

3:09

about the world has come to an end because

3:12

of who knows, climate change, nuclear war, whatever,

3:14

and people are trying to survive, and the actors

3:16

survive by doing Shakespeare. Like, that's

3:18

going to happen. Like, we have skills to

3:20

survive in apocalypse. Will be

3:22

the first against the wall I think

3:24

well, but but no see here It's

3:26

funny you say that because everybody's watching

3:28

anybody is not watching white lotus, which

3:30

we'll get to which everybody is they're

3:32

watching the show called paradise and yeah

3:34

the concept of that is there's an

3:37

Armageddon and certain people were chosen to

3:39

survive it. I had this talk about

3:41

Who would it be? I think artists

3:43

would be included. I do I

3:45

think I think well, I love your optimism

3:48

I quite like someone who can collect water.

3:50

Maybe you'll grow food. Well, that goes

3:52

without saying. The handy people, the smart people

3:54

goes without saying. But here's

3:56

the thing. I think... I'm

3:58

just gonna say it. I think you want some

4:01

good -looking people. Just

4:03

for breathing purposes. Yes!

4:06

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Literally, your job

4:08

is to have 10 kids. Listen,

4:10

I hope you're doing the picking and I

4:12

hope you are on the committee at

4:14

least. I'm not sure I've got many skills.

4:17

When COVID happened, I do think it's going to

4:19

be Mad Max. Within a few weeks, I thought

4:21

if there wasn't a food supply, I thought people

4:23

going to kick the door in. They're going to

4:25

eat us for food and I have nothing. I've

4:27

got a golf club. I've got

4:29

it by the door. I had to put

4:31

out a ruin one and the irons. I'd

4:33

have to get a whole new set. No,

4:35

no, you've got it all wrong. When they

4:37

come to the door because you're a brilliant

4:39

actor, you make up some bullshit and you

4:41

tell them, That if X, Y, and Z

4:43

happens my hands are registered weapons. My dad.

4:46

Yes. Come

4:48

on. Don't sell yourself short. Anyway,

4:54

hello, you. Hello, you. So

4:56

Patrick Schwarzenegger is basically like my second

4:58

son. I don't know if you know

5:00

that. Oh, he's mine, too. Yeah, I

5:02

know to fight over him. I love

5:04

that boy. That boy is the greatest

5:06

and he's i'm so proud of him

5:08

he's murdering on the show yes i

5:10

tell you something he was playing. People

5:13

completely got him wrong two things

5:15

but one people making facile comparisons between

5:17

him and the character in the

5:19

first season and actually you saw. When

5:22

it all fell apart when he played this

5:24

since a brilliantly this week where he just

5:26

came to me desperate and beg me to

5:28

find it something going on you suddenly realize

5:30

all that braggadoat show all the approaching women.

5:32

He's a loser none of these women sleep

5:34

with him. It's lockdown to get to have

5:36

sex. His lines don't work. None of

5:38

his, the fake stuff he shows off to his

5:40

younger brother, it's not the real him. He

5:42

has nothing except me and living

5:44

in my shadow. And it was

5:46

like a magic eye picture. It all suddenly came to focus.

5:48

You go, wow. And he'd been

5:50

keeping his powder dry for six episodes.

5:53

I thought he did that fantastically. Yeah,

5:55

that's the scene. It's

5:58

just spectacular. And

6:00

it's great when you

6:02

see... He's

6:05

best friends with both my sons, and so I've known him

6:07

since, I literally have known him since he was six years old,

6:09

probably. Well, so you or his new, I

6:11

imagine when I arrived at the set, I

6:13

thought, well, I know his dad is on this

6:15

moment, and he's going to be some kind of

6:17

Hollywood spoil brat. He's going to be a prince

6:20

of Brentwood or something. And it

6:22

just turned out to be such a

6:24

fantastic, solid human being. kind

6:26

and fun and game for

6:28

anything and humble. He

6:31

and my other two kids, screen kids, I've fallen completely

6:33

in love with. In fact, I called them my kids.

6:35

They called me dad and we went out all the

6:37

time and we'd say we're going out with the family.

6:39

Then my real kids arrived in Thailand and I said,

6:41

well, let's go out with the kids and they'll go,

6:43

dad, we're your kids. Right. Yes. You know what I'm

6:45

saying. I do, oh my god,

6:47

that's amazing. Thailand, okay,

6:49

how hot was it? It was hot enough that

6:51

nobody should think, fuck those people, they had

6:53

a holiday in Thailand. It was monstrously hot, like

6:56

not enjoyably hot at all. Plus you're wearing

6:58

makeup and costumes, not that you're gonna suddenly go

7:00

and jump in the pool a lot of

7:02

the time. But hot enough that

7:04

if you were so inclined, you would

7:06

just, as some people did, stay in your

7:08

air -conditioned room the entire time and never come

7:10

out. I really traveled around and went to different

7:12

countries and stuff, but yeah, it was unpleasantly

7:15

hot. And insects, and

7:17

animals, and jellyfish, and a whole bunch of

7:19

them. Nobody should be jealous and think that

7:21

we had a free holiday. It

7:23

looks pretty plush, I gotta

7:25

say. It's television program, Rob.

7:27

You've been in a few

7:29

yourself. I know. The other

7:31

thing that we all know

7:33

is all those endless scenes

7:35

of everybody drinking fake wine

7:37

and disgusting cheese plates. Or

7:40

eating in a beautiful restaurant. If it's dark

7:42

when you're watching television, people don't know. Then you're

7:44

looking at somebody who was filming at night,

7:46

which meant we started at six o 'clock at

7:48

night, we finished at six o 'clock in the

7:50

morning when the sun came up, and they shoot

7:52

the ladies first. And so my close -ups, thank

7:54

God a drugged -out lunatic in it. My close

7:56

-ups were always, you know, 4 .58 in the

7:58

morning. And it was a matchsticks in

8:00

the eyes to keep them open, yeah. Yeah,

8:04

I mean... By the way, sorry, no one should

8:06

be jealous, but no one should be sympathetic either.

8:08

We don't really deserve any sympathy. We did go

8:10

to Thailand for seven months. It is,

8:12

it's one of those shows where... I want

8:14

the DVD commentary. I would pay anything for

8:16

that. Well, Pasha can tell you the stories.

8:18

There's plenty of behind the scenes stories. I'm

8:20

on this podcast with you here. I'm glad

8:22

you're not here in person because I did

8:25

a podcast recently that a friend of mine

8:27

hosts in England and I thought it went

8:29

well and it had a nice response. friend

8:31

who is also my publicist in the UK, Claire,

8:34

I didn't realize had to cut about 25 minutes

8:36

out because I was horribly indiscreet, telling him things

8:38

I would tell him if we were at dinner. And

8:41

she went, you can't say that. You can't put

8:43

that out there. No one should know that. And

8:45

so I'm glad that there's some distance between us.

8:47

Hopefully I'll be able to maintain a level of

8:49

discretion today. But there are stories. And one day

8:51

on all of our deathbeds, we'll tell them. Well,

8:54

I've heard a couple of them from Patrick. I'm

8:56

sure you have. I mean, one of them

8:59

is already out there in the ether of you

9:01

running through the plate glass window. Oh, yes.

9:03

No, that's, well, that's, you know, that's PG. Yeah.

9:05

Yeah. I mean, I didn't run through it.

9:08

I nearly ran through it. In

9:10

my own defense, two things. One, it

9:12

was completely spotless. There was a crew on this

9:14

billionaire's super yacht. They had nothing to do while

9:16

we were shooting. So all they did was clean

9:18

these fucking windows all day every day so that

9:20

you couldn't see them for a start. And

9:22

the other thing is that they orient to the boat

9:24

with the right mountains and trees and islands behind us. And

9:26

when it was in the right position, they needed you

9:28

there in a hurry. But we were all huddled in this

9:30

tiny air -conditioned room because it was so hot. And

9:33

they went, Jason, I need you now. So

9:35

I jumped and I jumped into a window,

9:37

knocked myself out, was caught by the secondary day. He said I

9:39

was there for minutes. I think it was there for a

9:42

second. And yeah, I split my

9:44

head open, which was hilarious, hilarity abounded

9:46

for everybody. Oh, but

9:48

also I heard something like you walking

9:50

into an empty pool. I get a

9:52

cool Patrick when this is over. An

9:55

empty boy. Are you like the, come

9:57

on. I'm actually very coordinated. I was

9:59

a pro skateboarder. I'll have you know, I

10:01

just, I'm quite, I'm a little bit like

10:03

a seven year old or a bunny. I

10:05

have two speeds, Coma and Hysteria. Coma's not

10:07

that useful on a set. So yeah, I'm

10:10

enthusiastic and I tend to run at

10:12

things. Yeah. But you know, when there's water

10:14

in a pool. That's way more safe.

10:16

OK, so there's two pull episodes. One is I

10:18

was visible in the doorway about to enter

10:20

into a scene. They went back off, Jason. I

10:22

backed off without looking behind me. I backed

10:24

up and they had not made safe a corridor,

10:26

which had a big empty pool in it.

10:28

And I dropped quite a lot, quite deep and

10:30

smashed my head on a statue, but didn't

10:32

split it open. Thank God. The other one is

10:34

when we're in Bangkok. having the premiere in

10:36

Bangkok. I was late to a

10:38

restaurant, they were all out, and it was on

10:40

the top floor in some glamorous place. I walked out

10:43

and I saw all my friends, Patrick and the

10:45

others, they waved at me and I walked towards them,

10:47

not seeing that they were on a little island

10:49

where the table was, and there was a pool between

10:51

me and them, which was luckily only knee deep,

10:53

and I suddenly sank. I just kept walking

10:55

and got to the table and stepped out and sat

10:57

down and was just slightly damp for the rest of

10:59

the evening. You, truly, somebody

11:01

should follow you around with a

11:03

camera. Now, didn't you have a

11:06

reality show for a bit? I

11:08

did. My sons and I, this

11:10

is my favorite meet Hollywood meeting

11:12

I ever had. I met with

11:14

the head of A and E

11:16

networks. And they were like, we'd

11:18

like to get you to do something

11:20

and you're entrepreneurial. And would

11:22

you ever think about doing

11:24

like a maybe a home improvement

11:26

construction or travel to that?

11:28

I said, no, but I tell

11:30

you what I would do.

11:32

A show about my boys and

11:34

I looking for Bigfoot. Nice.

11:37

they were like, sold. So it

11:39

literally is my boys and

11:41

I in like a Scooby -Doo

11:43

van traveling the country like investigating

11:45

supernatural phenomenon. It's the most

11:47

fun thing I've ever done. So I was just

11:49

in Richmond, Virginia this last weekend and somebody

11:51

came and they had a badge and it said

11:53

Richmond Ghost Tours. And I'm terrified of

11:55

and fascinated by ghosts. And I said, have you seen

11:57

any? And she looked at me and she went, I've

11:59

seen many. And I go,

12:02

excuse me, is there something I should

12:04

go and see in Richmond? And she went, well, I'll

12:06

tell you where not to go. There's a place I get

12:08

punched every time I go in and slap. I don't

12:10

go in the building anymore. And she started to tell me

12:12

a story about this particular building. She only sends the

12:14

people in. She won't go anymore. And they always come out

12:16

and they've been slapped or punched. And it

12:18

scared the pants off me. I slept with

12:20

my lights on in the Jefferson Hotel, which is

12:22

apparently also haunted. Have you seen any

12:24

in your life? Have you seen ghosts? So

12:27

the first episode, we were

12:29

at a... in Ione, California,

12:32

a long since closed

12:34

boys reformatory. So

12:37

you can only imagine

12:39

what a boys reformatory

12:41

was like in 1700.

12:44

And we had an elevator that

12:47

would turn on and go up

12:49

and down the thing. We had

12:51

lights that turned on. We

12:54

saw a deflated Sort

12:57

of kickball like really super

12:59

deflated like it wasn't like you'd

13:01

have to pick it up

13:03

to move it and it rolled

13:05

around the floor on its

13:07

own We just kids Yeah, I

13:09

was but I also really

13:11

wanted to see stuff like I

13:13

was we also had one

13:15

of those voice things I don't

13:17

know what the hell they're

13:20

called. We're like You say who's

13:22

there and it will go

13:24

like I am And like And

13:27

there was, I guess, there was

13:29

a room where a woman was found

13:31

dead. Right. And so I made

13:33

my son go sit in it with

13:35

the voice thing. By himself? Yeah.

13:37

Wow. Great voice. Okay. I'm good

13:39

dad. I wouldn't do it. And

13:42

then, you know, you're like,

13:44

is there anyone in here? I

13:46

am. It's pretty cool.

13:49

It's pretty cool. So yes, I

13:51

believe... I don't want to believe. I

13:53

don't want to see one. But

13:55

I'm curious about it. I filmed, I

13:57

did a film called Cure for

13:59

Wellness, called Wominski Film. And

14:01

in just outside Berlin is the most haunted place

14:03

in Europe. This series of

14:05

buildings, this compound where Hitler was rehabbed after

14:07

the First World War. And then he

14:09

used it to rehab injured Nazis. And then

14:11

when the Russians took over East Berlin,

14:13

they took it over and they made it

14:16

this kind of, I don't know, this

14:18

compound for their psychiatric patients. But really it

14:20

was for dissidents. And they lobotomized everyone

14:22

there and there were lots of messengers. So

14:24

all these people arrived. Ghost hunters who were kept out

14:26

by a barbed wire fence while we were shooting, and

14:28

I went, what are they doing here? I thought they'd

14:31

come to see me and Dane Dahan, I don't think

14:33

so. And no, they came to see ghosts. And

14:35

they, we'd refurbished one of the buildings, but

14:37

the others weren't refurbished. I was just, I shat

14:39

myself other day. I never looked up at

14:41

the other windows, because they didn't want to see

14:43

a silhouette at these dilapidated buildings. And I

14:45

looked up, they said there's been lots of massacres

14:48

here in serial killings. And I looked up

14:50

and I saw there had in fact been a

14:52

serial killing just two years before. And I

14:54

was like, well, this has been inhabited. How come?

14:56

What was it? I look, look up deeper.

14:58

I have searched on the internet. And it was

15:00

a magazine shoot. And the photographer had flipped

15:02

and killed all the models, killed three models. Come

15:05

on. And then I searched further to see

15:07

what it was. And it was, it

15:09

was, this is one of those things my

15:11

policy should get cut out. Sorry, everyone. It

15:13

was a fetish magazine. And

15:15

he killed them with a frying pan. And

15:17

to this day, I'm dying to find out whether the

15:19

frying pan was part of the fetish or whether they were

15:21

on lunch break. I wasn't quite sure. I still don't

15:23

know. Do we have any idea what

15:25

the fetish was? Well, if it was cooking, I'd

15:27

be very curious. do know that it was

15:29

very, very haunted. And I just looked down at

15:31

the ground. I would hold the makeup people's

15:33

hair to go back to my trailer. A hand,

15:35

rather. I just couldn't. I'm terrified, of

15:37

course, is my point. I would not have done what

15:39

you'd done with your sons. I

15:42

want to go there. I want to

15:44

go visit that place. We also visited

15:46

a... a state prison and

15:48

I put my son, what would they had

15:50

a term for it? There's a theme

15:52

emoting here. I put my son, it's happening.

15:54

That's the second time you've said it.

15:56

Because they were very good television. Like

15:58

if you put me there, I'm like

16:01

into it. So it's way more fun

16:03

to put somebody who's petrified. This

16:06

is the follow -up season or the therapy they

16:08

needed. Yeah. So when you

16:10

hang someone in the gallows and they

16:12

drop through the floor, The

16:15

area where they dropped to the floor

16:17

and then the body is recovered is

16:19

called Something whatever so I made him

16:21

go down in that with that and

16:23

that was that was I got to

16:25

say that was one moment where I

16:27

felt like I'd gone too far and

16:29

And that's in the show where I'm

16:31

feeling like I this is because he

16:33

was really scared. Yes, the Gallows area

16:35

was But we had fun. We meanwhile

16:37

they they all want to do it

16:39

again. That's good. What are you

16:41

gonna look for this time? The

16:44

first episode would be in Hawaii. We

16:46

would look for the Manahunis. Are you

16:49

aware of the Manahunis? The

16:51

Manahunis are little

16:53

like elves, like

16:57

sprites that steal things and

16:59

are... They're like little tiny little...

17:01

First cousins of the leprechauns.

17:03

Yes, they're 100%. They're the Hawaiian

17:05

leprechauns. And then the night

17:08

marchers. Right. Which are really fucking

17:10

gnarly. The night marchers are...

17:12

I'm feeling like you're probably not

17:14

going to see any of

17:16

these things, as opposed to a

17:18

ghost. I will tell you,

17:20

I know lots of people who

17:23

have seen the night marchers. Fair

17:25

enough. Like, if you go back into the

17:27

backlands up in, like, you know, Kona, and

17:29

they have torches, and just a

17:31

series of people with torches, but they say that

17:33

if you look at them, then

17:35

bad things happen to you. I'm

17:40

intrigued. I'll be watching. I love it. You remind me

17:42

of a minute that one of my favorite episodes of

17:44

This American Life, I'm so sorry, it's a rifle podcast,

17:46

but they've been around a while, which was about kid

17:48

logic. And there was one of the producers on and

17:50

said that when she was a kid, she

17:52

came home. She was like seven of them.

17:54

She said, mom, I know about

17:56

the Tooth Fairy. And the

17:58

mother said, oh, I'm sorry, honey. you remember this episode?

18:00

she goes, what, how do

18:02

you know? she goes, well, Shari Silverstein told

18:04

me at school and Shari Silverstein was her friend

18:07

who's dad with their dentist and said, what

18:09

did she say? She goes, well, She woke up

18:11

and Mr. Silverstein was putting money under her

18:13

pillow. And she goes, oh,

18:15

no. And what does Shari think? She

18:17

goes, well, like me, she's confused. Like, how

18:20

does Mr. Silverstein get to everybody's house? Like,

18:22

does he do Europe? And she

18:25

said, I don't know. And so for years afterwards,

18:27

when she went to the dentist, the

18:29

guy would be doing her teeth and she'd go, how's

18:31

work, Mr. S? Just not mentioning it.

18:33

And then When she got a job, I think

18:35

of the New Yorker or something before she went to

18:37

this American life. One time she's in the copy

18:39

room and a guy ran in looking very, very panicked

18:41

and very upset. She says, what's

18:43

the matter? He goes, there are elves,

18:45

right? I mean, there are elves. And

18:48

she thought back as much as a kid and

18:50

she went, there are absolutely elves. And he left

18:52

the room. I love

18:54

that people believe. The

18:56

slogan for the show and the billboards

18:58

and the ads were, it's more fun

19:00

to believe. Yeah. But there is

19:02

a fact or not. I was just listening to

19:04

a fantastic, uh, so sorry, yet another

19:06

different podcast about Houdini. There's three part about Houdini

19:09

on Pushkin, Malcolm Gladwell's thing. And I didn't realize

19:11

he spent years of his life, the last many

19:13

years of his life, and the equivalent of tens

19:15

of millions of dollars of his money. trying to

19:17

disprove this wave of spiritualism and psychic phenomena and

19:19

ghosts and the rest of it that was sweeping

19:21

the world after the First World War and the

19:23

Spanish flu. So many people wanted to contact the

19:25

dead because so many people had died that people

19:28

were being taken in everywhere. And

19:30

he liked the great Randy who left that million

19:32

dollar challenge everywhere for a long time. When there

19:34

is no such thing, I will give a fortune.

19:36

I think it was $10 ,000 in those days, which

19:38

is the equivalent of millions today. If anyone can

19:40

show me anything supernatural that I can't do by

19:42

magic. And that was what his life was devoted

19:44

to. Houdinis. Houdinis, yeah.

19:47

Did Houdini die doing

19:49

a trick? No, he

19:52

didn't. He died because he

19:54

had sepsis. He had an infection in

19:56

his stomach. There is a question mark

19:58

over what might have happened because he

20:00

had students visiting his dressing room at

20:02

one point. And one of them, who

20:04

he didn't know, came in late. Possibly, you

20:06

can imagine someone sent him there he had lots

20:08

of enemies. Mostly these very famous spiritualists who were making

20:10

a lot of money. But it might just have

20:12

been an over -the -topic student who was in the dressing

20:14

room and he went, hey, do

20:16

you get this stuff about people can punch you in

20:19

the stomach and you have like the toughest muscles in the

20:21

world? Is that true? And being slightly

20:23

vulgar and the other guys said, well, just leave him. He

20:25

was resting between shows. And he went, I have

20:27

a good muscle. You can feel him. He felt his stomach. He goes,

20:29

can I punch you? Yeah, sure you

20:31

can he's just started wailing into him like

20:33

wailing again again again again again again and

20:35

The other students went that's enough. It's enough

20:37

and they pulled them off and who didn't

20:39

was fine when I did his showed all

20:41

these things But then a day later he

20:43

went to hospital possibly as a

20:45

consequence of the punches, but probably not. And in

20:47

those days, of course, they didn't have antibiotics and

20:49

stuff, and he had a massive infections in his

20:52

stomach, and he died a day or two later

20:54

from that. So if you want to be a

20:56

conspiracy theorist, you can say someone sent this guy

20:58

to the dressing room, who no one knew, to

21:00

punch him to death. Or go in and punch

21:02

him to death. Yeah. Yeah. But that's

21:04

not the story I knew. I thought someone came up

21:06

on stage and punched him in the stomach, and he

21:08

died. That's what I remembered, but I remembered incorrectly. Yeah,

21:11

I have in my mind. Maybe this is the

21:13

Mandela effect. You know that you are you familiar with

21:15

the Mandela effect? Oh, I don't know. What is

21:17

it? So the Mandela effect

21:19

is this notion that we had

21:21

a timeline shift At some point

21:23

I feel like it was maybe

21:25

around people say in the early

21:27

2000s and since then Things that

21:30

we grew up believing absolutely are

21:32

true actually aren't because we had

21:34

a timeline shift, right example like

21:36

the notion that yeah, no, um

21:39

Houdini died, he drowned, unable to do

21:41

whatever. Yeah, exactly. There's a thing

21:43

like the Fruit of the Loom underwear.

21:48

I don't know if they have them in

21:50

Britain. They have them. I had them

21:52

when I was a teenager. Because their logo

21:54

had a cornucopia on it. Well,

21:56

it never did, apparently. Oh. And

21:58

there's all these many, many

22:00

urban myths. Many, many, many of

22:02

those myths, yeah. Where

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Same goes from a water

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bottle, chewing gum, and conditions

24:00

apply. I

24:08

love that we've turned this into like... conspiracy.

24:10

Well, you know, it's technically I'm here to publicize

24:12

the most watch show in the world. It

24:14

doesn't need me to tell people to watch the

24:16

White Lotus. And if you're not watching it

24:18

already, you're not going to start and it finishes

24:20

on Sunday. So, you know, whatever. No,

24:22

I can believe it. That bit's over with. Now we can just

24:24

talk. What do... So no characters

24:26

from this year had been pre...

24:28

Oh, no, no. That's not true. There

24:30

are a few characters that had

24:32

previously lived in the White Lotus universe.

24:35

Yeah. There's two. Yeah. I

24:38

mean it's interesting talking nowadays about streaming shows

24:40

because a lot of people are watching it

24:42

obviously and it finishes on Sunday and people

24:44

constantly want to know what happens and I

24:46

guess after Sunday we will talk about who

24:48

dies and who doesn't stuff but it's also

24:51

on streaming platform so there are people who

24:53

haven't watched it yet and I'm aware of

24:55

a spoiler but then that means you'd never

24:57

talk about anything if you didn't talk about

24:59

it but yeah anyone who's already watched the

25:01

first seven episodes can be raised if you

25:03

haven't. Greg is back, Greg who was Tanya's

25:05

husband. But he's called Gary

25:07

now, and there is a big cloud of

25:09

suspicion over him. And the

25:12

fabulous Natasha's back is Belinda, who

25:14

comes across Greg and isn't

25:16

quite sure what to do about

25:18

it because he's on the

25:20

run from Interpol. But

25:22

the rest of us knew. My

25:24

son went to Duke. Oh, did he?

25:27

Yes. Did you see

25:29

the fuss online about the t -shirts and

25:31

all that stuff? Oh, yeah, that's right. We're

25:33

all very aware. So walk me through

25:35

exactly the hubbub. Well, so first of all,

25:38

my character, they're one of the story

25:40

dilemmas. If you're not watching the show, if

25:42

you're not watching the show, why the

25:44

hell aren't you going to watch it and

25:46

come back? My youngest

25:48

son is trying to decide between going to Duke and

25:50

going to, can't remember where is the other place. North

25:53

Carolina. But I

25:55

went to Duke. I'm a Duke alumni.

25:57

I'm a Saxon Patrick character as a

26:00

Duke alumni. And

26:02

consequently, when we're thinking about costumes, I'm

26:04

talking to Alex, the wonderful Emmy -winning

26:06

costume designer. I said, maybe he wears

26:08

a Duke t -shirt to sleep it. probably

26:11

president of something and fundraiser and all the rest of

26:13

it. So we got a juke t -shirt for me to

26:15

wear when I'm sleeping in it. And I'm pretty sure they

26:17

got it cleared because, as you know, you don't ever

26:20

go on television without getting all the logos cleared. And

26:22

there are scenes in it in which

26:24

I'm suicidal and even homicidal. And who knows

26:27

what's happening on episode eight. And they

26:29

are the ones in which I am wearing

26:31

my juke t -shirt because it's bedtime. Well,

26:34

someone at Duke decided that

26:36

was... really untoward and felt, you

26:38

know, was not happy with

26:40

the association. Other people

26:42

online were pointing out that there are real

26:44

life alumni of Duke to be far more

26:46

worried about than a fictional alumni. And

26:50

what hilariously, I was stuck at Charlotte

26:52

Airport the other day and my suitcases hadn't

26:54

arrived where I was going. So I

26:56

bought a t -shirt at the airport with

26:58

a devil on it, not realizing it was

27:00

a Duke t -shirt for the, but then

27:02

I was in Virginia and people drove

27:04

from Durham, North Carolina. Very

27:06

sweetly to come. I was at a convention appearing

27:08

somewhere They drive just to tell me that they

27:10

thought my accent was accurate and I shouldn't listen

27:13

to the people who don't know what a Durham

27:15

North Carolina accent is and they brought me Duke

27:17

t -shirts So I have a selection of Duke t

27:19

-shirts I didn't wear one today if I'd known

27:21

I'd have it on now But I am intending

27:23

to wear them whenever there's a camera around so

27:25

sorry Duke there goes my honorary degree Well, you

27:27

know, we have a dukes in the final four

27:29

this week. Yes, no, I understand it's a it's

27:31

a big it's a big deal and I wouldn't

27:33

be great if I went on and I would

27:35

say throw the first pitch, but it's the wrong

27:37

game. Oh my god. Why? That's

27:40

the greatest missed opportunity. Well, the show

27:42

is basically airing that night. So I'll

27:44

be busy. I also can't sing

27:47

and I'm English, but apart from all those reasons. What?

27:50

What? Would you ever sing? I

27:52

feel like that's singing the national anthem.

27:54

If I did, I would make Roseanne look like

27:57

Barbara Streisand. So I'm not sure it's a

27:59

good idea. And in.

28:01

In the UK, there's no equivalent. People don't get

28:03

out and sing God Save the Queen or whatever

28:05

the fuck No, not at all. But wait, you

28:07

can sing, right? A little bit. No, I think

28:09

you can sing. Didn't you do musicals at some

28:12

point? I did. I was trying not to crash,

28:14

but I was having to sing. It's the stuff about

28:16

Rob I should know as I was looking you up and

28:18

read traffic lights on the way here. I

28:20

would give a digit to be able

28:22

to sing. I love good voice. I love

28:24

musicals. I love great singers. They

28:26

moved me to tears. My dirty, embarrassing

28:28

secret is that I watch all those singing

28:30

shows. I watch them under the covers

28:32

while my wife is asleep and I'm shaking

28:34

with tears. All that horrible, manipulative editing

28:37

of, you know, they were born without a

28:39

head, you know, but they managed to

28:41

sing anyway through the orifices and that always

28:43

gets me sobbing. And then they sing

28:45

beautifully and I love it. And I wish

28:47

I could sing. Can't wait for

28:49

AI to fix that. I can't believe you.

28:51

I think you're again, you're selling yourself short. I've

28:53

never met a good actor that couldn't carry

28:55

it to him. No, I can sell a song.

28:57

I could revamp my way through the song.

28:59

That's half of it though. Yeah, I

29:02

go to musicals, I sit in a front

29:04

row, I know what a good boy. And

29:06

when someone's got a set of pipes, I

29:08

tell you, we did karaoke on White Loafs,

29:10

it's quite a lot, more than once. And

29:12

the first time Dave, a producer, Dave Bennett

29:14

threw a karaoke party in his place. And

29:16

I thought, well, whatever, a bunch of actors,

29:18

we're all getting to know each other. It's

29:20

good to make yourself vulnerable and sing badly.

29:22

Patrick, God bless him, is utterly unbothered, you

29:24

know, unshy about singing very badly. And it

29:26

really warms up. dude, I had Arnold sing

29:29

karaoke once. Arnold never has done it. It

29:31

was, I gotta say, he inherited his

29:33

singing ability from his father. Yes. Yeah, the

29:35

apple fell right in the middle of

29:38

the tree. Right in the tree. That's all

29:40

good suspicious minds. They're caught in

29:42

a trap. I can't

29:44

walk out. But I love people

29:46

who are just not embarrassed about it. I have

29:48

a musical ear. I can hear how far I'm

29:50

off. That's what kills me. But anyway, Natasha took

29:52

the microphone. Natasha sings like...

29:54

and Diana Ross and you know

29:56

i she's just got incredible

29:58

voice you know and sang non

30:00

-stop and then. Christian who

30:03

plays Fabian in a christian freedom germinator

30:05

sang we all did a triple take

30:07

and i had spun off our shoulders he's

30:09

had six albums out in germany and

30:11

then tame sang tame who plays guy talk

30:13

in it tame has been. a

30:16

special forces soldier, an anti

30:18

-terrorism czar, and a bodyguard

30:20

and trainer. But when he didn't

30:22

get into the SAS, I think it was

30:24

because of some infection or whatever, he was

30:27

disappointed. He came back to Thailand. And before

30:29

enlisting back in the Thai army, his

30:31

friends entered in for a singing competition. And

30:33

I think he won the equivalent of Thai's Got

30:35

Talent. And so Tame starts singing. We all went,

30:37

wait, did Ed Sheeran just arrive? Got a phenomenal

30:39

voice. The cast is full of people who can

30:41

sing brilliantly. Yeah,

30:43

so it was intimidating. We had karaoke

30:46

a couple of times. You don't want

30:48

to go up against any Thai person

30:50

with karaoke. I mean, it's... Oh, thanks.

30:52

My worst experience. Do you know Darius

30:54

Rocker? Yeah, of course. I've had him

30:56

on the podcast. He's great. Hooting the Blowfish, a

30:58

singer of old, but one of the great, greats. Yep.

31:00

I mean, he's one of the great soul singers,

31:02

but he does country a lot, doesn't he? Yeah, he's

31:04

doing, he lives in Nashville, and that's his main,

31:07

his main vibe. So years ago, when he was in

31:09

Hooting the Blowfish, they used to have a big

31:11

charity golf tournament. They still do called Monday After Masters.

31:14

And they phoned me and they said, will you come? And

31:16

I went, I'm really not a good golfer. I remember a

31:18

bad bogey golf, and they went, it doesn't matter what your

31:20

golf is like. Loads of people come. They're terrible golfers. It's

31:22

for charity. And you're in Harry Potter and

31:24

people will buy tickets and it will be

31:26

great for charity. I went, oh, honestly, because

31:28

there's loads of actors. Anyway, turn up in

31:30

wherever we were. And he'd lied. Everybody else

31:32

was a NBA player or a professional footballer.

31:34

They're all scratch golfers. Incredibly embarrassing. We have

31:36

a round the day before the crowds arrive

31:38

and I go, what are those ropes by

31:40

the thing? That's where the crowds will be.

31:42

And I go, are you fucking kidding me?

31:45

I'm going to kill people on every single fairway. They

31:47

went, I'm sure you're being modest. And then I hit

31:49

up all of them. They all ran around on their

31:51

way to talk. He's going, okay, we're going to have

31:53

to move the crowds back a long way when the

31:55

English guy's playing. Okay. A long way. So

31:57

anyway, I played embarrassing golf when the crowds come in. And

32:00

then Darius goes, you're going to, you come to the

32:02

party, right? And I go, there's a party? He goes, yeah,

32:04

the house of blues tonight. It's great. They

32:06

pay another $1 ,000. It's really great for the charity. It should

32:08

come and mix with people in the night. All

32:10

right. I go and I get there and he goes, what are

32:12

you singing? I go, no, dude. I'm

32:14

sorry. I've already played golf. That's bad enough. I

32:16

am absolutely not sinking. He goes, okay, look, I

32:18

lied to you about the golf. Of course there

32:20

were golfers. You wouldn't come otherwise. Believe me, they

32:22

can't sing. Believe me, these guys can't. I've heard

32:25

them every year. They really can't sing. And I

32:27

went, all right, I'll sing, I'll

32:29

sing a Beatles song. I'm from Liverpool. I'll

32:31

do it in a Liverpool accent. I can make

32:33

it a comedy. It'll be fine. So he

32:35

puts me down and she's right. They sing and

32:37

it's like a series of cats in a

32:39

mangle. The guy before me gets up, it's like

32:41

he's just been castrated. It's a horrible sound. You

32:44

know, everybody leaves the room. It's so awful

32:46

that he grabs the microphone. Darius goes, come

32:48

on, let's get the party started. Any requests?

32:50

And people go, yeah, do Stevie Wonder. He

32:52

does Stevie Wonder. He does Michael Jackson. He

32:54

does Frank Sinatra. Everybody comes into the room

32:56

now. The whole crowd's in the room. They're

32:58

going nuts. More, more. He goes, no, no,

33:00

let's get, let's get back to the, the

33:02

karaoke with the guy. Well, who I got

33:04

next? I got Jacob Isaacs. And that was

33:06

my, I went up after. Oh no, that's

33:08

not good. That was one of the great

33:10

traumatic memories of my life. For charity. Growing

33:13

up in Liverpool, what was your

33:15

relationship with the Beatles phenomenon? Oh, that's

33:17

the soundtrack in my life. That was the

33:19

soundtrack in my life. That's all anyone

33:21

ever played. From the time I came out

33:23

of the womb, that's all I ever

33:25

heard. And I'm both thrilled to say that

33:28

I'm choking to death. I'm both thrilled

33:30

to say that the generation, you know, the

33:32

younger generation are discovering the Beatles. And

33:34

Ben Ray Simpson is fantastic. And

33:36

horrified that my kids won't listen to it

33:38

because I pushed so hard for them to

33:40

say the Beatles is the greatest band they've

33:42

ever lived. Thought I don't think they're on

33:44

any of their playlists. I know what you

33:46

mean. But I

33:49

do think that they're being rediscovered.

33:51

I mean, it's hard to impart

33:53

to kids today, what

33:55

the Beatles were like. I'm

33:58

almost a generation too. That's not

34:00

true. I can remember Hey Jude on

34:02

the radio as a current single. I

34:04

can remember that. I remember it on eight tracks. My

34:07

dad had an eight track in the car. remember those,

34:09

like big, chunky cassettes. Of course. We had, I

34:12

guess they were called sci -fi or something. We

34:14

had a record play, but in the garage.

34:16

It wasn't done to have music in the house,

34:18

so my brothers and I were going to

34:20

the garage and listen to stuff. But it was

34:22

playing everywhere. It was Beatles or Stones. I

34:24

grew up and it was clearly Beatles. I never

34:26

got into Rolling Stones because it felt like

34:28

it was a betrayal. How

34:31

insane to grow up listening to

34:33

the Beatles, but then you'd actually go

34:36

to all of the places that

34:38

are written about in the songs. Yeah,

34:40

like Penny Lane was down the

34:42

road for me. And

34:44

actually, John's auntie lived around the corner. mean, I was a

34:46

little kid. We are all roughly the same age. I think

34:49

I might be a year old, which is all since I,

34:51

as I think, oh, look, there's Rob. I've been watching him

34:53

since I was a kid, but you were too, I guess,

34:55

because we're the same age. So I wasn't

34:57

going to the cabin or anything like that,

34:59

but I was aware of them. I thought that

35:01

was the only music in the world. That

35:04

and what my parents listen to, Barbara Streisand

35:06

and Frank Sinatra. They were

35:08

the only, that was the only music in the world. By the way,

35:10

it might be. mean, if you're gonna pick

35:12

the to it. I'll tell you, a couple of years ago,

35:14

I went to a slightly different... I went to a Globes

35:16

party here. I'm talking to you from Los Angeles. And

35:18

it was a Netflix party. So I was in a

35:20

series called The OA. It was on Netflix. We went

35:22

there and it was a fab party. was very cool.

35:24

They'd won a couple of awards. And they had... Someone

35:26

said to me, you've got to go. They've got the

35:29

coolest DJ in the world. He's just been to amazing

35:31

tracks. And I got there and he was spinning amazing

35:33

tracks. The whole place was throbbing. And I thought, I

35:35

got all of these tracks from the 70s on vinyl.

35:38

All the cool songs were the songs that, you

35:40

know... disco bursts, there were the same things

35:42

being remixed, which I love. Can I

35:44

just say to anybody, if they're watching this, I'm

35:46

looking up at Rob on a screen, and I

35:48

think, I don't know what the shot will look

35:50

like. It might look like he is Godlike, which

35:52

he is to me, obviously, but the reason I'm

35:54

looking up there all the time, it might be

35:56

an odd angle, but he's up above there on

35:58

the screen for me. He's above me. Yeah, so

36:00

many ways. I can't even count them.

36:03

He's above me. Tell

36:07

me again the name. Tell me a story about Patrick growing up.

36:09

That's what I want to know. Okay, you want to hear about Patrick

36:11

up? Yes. Well, he

36:13

is, and I would say this to his face, he

36:15

American. Was he always this nice? Did he go

36:17

through a phase at least? Please tell me when through

36:19

a phase of being an idiotic teenager. No,

36:22

he's always been. Oh, that's annoying. Well,

36:25

he has, he has parents who are super on

36:27

top of it. I mean, Maria Shriver is one

36:29

of the great women in the world and Arnold

36:31

ruled with an iron fist. I mean, you know, the

36:33

great. I got that sense. If he didn't, if

36:35

he didn't make the bed, a lot of times

36:37

the bed would be thrown out the window into the

36:39

pool. Wow. Not many people

36:41

can pick up a bed. And

36:43

fit it through a window. Yes, yes. There's

36:46

a lot of fold. It can,

36:48

Arnold Schwarzenegger is so strong, he can

36:50

origami a mattress. Right. I

36:53

love when he was pumping iron that he would go

36:55

and eat in the hall in front of all the other

36:57

people who were starving themselves just to intimidate them and

36:59

then throw up because he was doing, you know, he was

37:01

doing it just to annoy them. It's such a psych

37:03

out game. All competition is psych out. He's

37:05

one of my favorite people

37:07

in the planet. I love

37:09

him so much and Maria

37:11

as well. But I've known

37:14

him forever and he's always

37:16

had that sort of light

37:18

around him, that sort of

37:20

charisma, that sort of thing.

37:24

He's sort of a born

37:26

winner. And that's what

37:28

was so powerful to me about Watching

37:30

the scene we were referring to or

37:33

he talks about I have nothing without you

37:35

To see that that he had that

37:37

gear in him you there's nothing in his

37:39

upbringing That would prepare you for that

37:41

kind of well not to take away from

37:43

him But actually I think everybody's doing

37:45

fabulous work in it and the reason everybody

37:47

as you know as an actor We

37:49

get all kinds of credit when we're lucky

37:51

enough to be able to tell stories

37:53

with fantastic writing That's right. You know, I've

37:55

been an actor for almost as long

37:57

as you, not quite. And the times

38:00

in my life, I can count on one or

38:02

maybe two hands that I've had lots of praise

38:04

or even awards or nominations or whatever, have been

38:06

the times when I've been blessed enough to be

38:08

given a phenomenal three -dimensional part. And the day

38:10

you read it, you go, if I don't fuck

38:12

this up, people are going to think it's me. And

38:15

I'm the same actor in those completely forgettable things

38:17

that you don't notice or switch off. I'm just

38:19

lucky enough to be playing this guy. The

38:22

cliche is true, but we're only

38:24

as good as our material, and

38:26

everybody has been paying attention to

38:28

you guys. And also, every

38:30

week it feels like there's

38:32

this new sequence, and a

38:34

couple of weeks ago it

38:36

was Sam Rockwell. Yeah,

38:38

yeah. And I

38:41

always tell people, people

38:43

should watch that scene

38:45

because it's an acting

38:47

clinic, because all Sam Rockwell is

38:49

doing, And by the way, when I say all,

38:51

I'm not saying that in a diminishing way,

38:53

quite the contrary. He's doing one

38:55

of the hardest things ever. He's just

38:57

saying the words. Yeah. He's

38:59

just telling the story. He's just telling the

39:01

story. That's all you have to do. I remember my first

39:03

day at drama school. They lined us up in

39:05

the corner of the room, and the guy said, walk across the

39:07

middle the room, go through a door, and

39:10

walk across the other corner the room. And everybody

39:12

made this five -act opera. Like, you know, you get

39:14

to the middle of the invisible door and you can't

39:16

find your keys in your pocket. And then the door's

39:18

stuck. And then all your trip on it, oh, no,

39:20

you double -taked it. I leave the thing behind me. And

39:22

then the teacher just walked across, opened the door, walked

39:24

through, got the other figures. That's all I asked you

39:26

to do. Sometimes you just have

39:28

to tell the story and trust that the story

39:30

itself is doing the work and don't get in

39:32

the way. And with Mike, he's,

39:34

you know, he's just, it's a phenomenal story.

39:36

And it's a simple job acting to have

39:38

to be another person in another situation. Sometimes

39:40

it's... to do, but it's just that, no

39:42

more than that. And the other part of

39:45

it is listening. And,

39:47

you know, Walton's

39:49

got the role in that scene

39:51

of sitting there listening and he's

39:53

murdering it too, because he's just

39:55

listening and he's equally as compelling.

39:57

Listening can be as equally compelling

39:59

as talking, as you know. The

40:02

best performances I've ever seen, I think, in

40:04

my life have been off -camera. Like

40:06

someone when you're not thinking, Because

40:09

we all do it, we try not to, the

40:11

better you get at it, the more able you

40:13

are to forget this stuff, but you can't help

40:15

but think, oh, this is my big bit, this

40:17

is the bit where I cry, this bit where

40:19

I'm angry, this bit where I laugh. But when

40:21

you're off camera, you're just being with the other

40:23

person and making those moments come to life. And

40:25

then you get on camera you think, oh, just

40:27

do exactly what I did, but there's five cameras

40:29

on me and a hundred people watching, and suddenly

40:31

there's a feeling that you ought to be doing

40:33

something as opposed to... something from the other person

40:35

and that's all acting is is being with another

40:37

person like now I I'm doing all the talking

40:39

this is written down But you're nodding and that's

40:41

what I really want. I really want you to

40:43

know I guess what I really want to do

40:45

is think my god Jason's just a guru of

40:47

acting, you know, but it's all about what I

40:49

want from your brain not what I'm doing What

40:51

um when you were on the West Wing was

40:53

I still on the show? That's

40:58

too bad because that To have

41:00

his stuff to work with is hell me about

41:02

it. Yeah. No, I got I had a

41:04

license and all I inherited as you will well

41:06

know the Culture of you can't change an

41:08

ellipsis into a semicolon, you know it's because it

41:10

was still doing that on the West Wing

41:12

after Aaron left Yeah, they were they were trying

41:14

to but I made the character Irish So

41:17

I was able to say things that you know

41:19

Brad and Janelle and people have been on

41:21

it for years couldn't do which is like Actually

41:23

Irish people don't say that kind of just

41:25

flip it around a bit and they would look

41:27

at me with horror and jealousy because they

41:29

didn't get to do that ever. So

41:32

it was odd. It was my

41:34

first American television. I've come from British

41:36

television and from movies where things

41:38

are looser generally. It's more like making

41:40

a film. And so I'd never encountered

41:42

anything as rigid before when it came to

41:44

words and how scenes were played. It shocked

41:46

me. And I remember there was one point

41:48

at which I set a line very sarcastically.

41:50

So I made a joke out of it. And

41:53

Brad's line by playing Josh.

41:56

was meant to make a joke out of something.

41:58

And he said to the writer and the director

42:00

there, he goes, I don't think I can say

42:02

this line because he's already made a joke. Like,

42:04

I can't make a joke about a joke. He's

42:06

already made a joke. And so, you know, and

42:08

the director went, OK, and the writer said, well,

42:10

I'd like to see it. I'll decide in the

42:12

edit. And I'd never seen that

42:14

power dynamic before. Actually, writers aren't on British

42:16

things. They would in those days. There were never a

42:18

writer around. There were three jobs further back, you know. And

42:21

I just it was a, you know. It

42:23

was an education for me to see how

42:25

different American television was. It's not always been

42:27

like that. It certainly wasn't like that on

42:29

White Lotus. Mike is very free and collaborative,

42:31

and you can improvise stuff, and he just

42:33

wants the scene to work well and score,

42:35

and he actually wants many, many choices in

42:37

the scenes. But some of the network television

42:39

I've done before that, you know, the script

42:41

has been through 83 people with very expensive

42:43

suits, and they want exactly what they read.

42:46

And I'm not sure it's the most

42:48

creative atmosphere. It can definitely, I

42:50

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45:41

know what I keep forgetting to ask

45:43

is, when you were in Angels of America

45:45

at the National, who directed it? Declan

45:47

Donglin directed it. Okay. We went on to

45:49

work with the Moscow Arts Theatre a

45:51

lot. But I was just remembering West Wing,

45:54

because I was such a huge fan of

45:56

the show. I'd seen every episode multiple times.

45:58

I've even rewatched it. It's just, you know,

46:00

don't we all wish that Martin was in

46:02

the White House right now, or

46:04

Jed Bartlett was in the now? Well, how

46:06

about this? Let's make the distinction. Bartlett. Yes,

46:08

Bartlett, not Martin. Yeah, to be fair. We

46:11

don't need the president of

46:13

the United States chaining himself to

46:15

the market. No, no, absolutely

46:17

right. But I

46:19

was such a huge fan of it.

46:21

I was working, you know, I was

46:23

with Janelle and Brad who were Josh

46:25

and Donna, and I actually knew Janelle

46:27

socially, she was my wife. but

46:30

I could not think of them as Josh

46:32

and Donna, the great, unconsummated love story of

46:34

all the seasons. And so when I was

46:36

in there having a romance with Donna, I

46:38

was thinking, no, don't be with me, save

46:40

yourself for Josh. And there was one scene

46:42

in which it said on the page something

46:44

like, it's morning, Donna has slept with the

46:46

photographer. And the director said,

46:49

look, we'll do one when she's sitting writing an email,

46:52

and you'll just be lying in the bed behind

46:54

her, just, you know, asleep. And maybe

46:56

we'll do one also where you come up and just

46:58

put your hands on her shoulders. And we see your

47:00

hands and we pan up and see it's you. I

47:02

go, okay. So we do the one where I'm asleep

47:04

and Janelle's writing a thing. And then the second one

47:06

where I come up on my hands on shoulders, she

47:08

turns around, she stands up and just tongue wrestles me

47:10

to the ground, sticks her tongue down my throat, starts

47:12

making out on me. And I

47:14

go with it. And the director

47:16

goes, cut. And I go, Janelle,

47:19

the fuck was that? And she goes,

47:21

freebie. Me

47:24

that's free be free shot

47:26

on goal. Yeah, it's funny. Those

47:28

are the The you know

47:30

what after I left the show

47:32

I didn't see it so

47:34

much But when I did when

47:36

I would turn on the

47:38

show I would see scenes that

47:40

Aaron made a rule of

47:42

never. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no He's

47:44

like he would he would

47:46

never do a scene Of

47:48

of Donna's at her house or

47:51

yeah apartment or he would I

47:53

remember it finally when I gave

47:55

up when I turned on one

47:57

of the later seasons and there

47:59

was a 17 year old version

48:01

of John Spencer in a rice

48:04

paddy and nom right and I

48:06

was like oh my god somewhere

48:08

Aaron Sorkin is literally lighting himself

48:10

on fire. You could sense the

48:12

difference immediately. I could and

48:14

I was I was thrilled to be in

48:16

it, but it clearly wasn't his stuff.

48:18

Although I did think that thing, when I

48:21

re -watch it now, he's such a brilliant,

48:23

right, such an extraordinarily brilliant dialogue. No wonder

48:25

he wanted it done verbatim. I would only

48:27

want to deliver it verbatim because perfect. Yeah,

48:30

you don't want to change it, for sure.

48:32

But you did think all these characters are

48:34

so witty and so erudite, you could swap

48:36

the dialogue around. Almost anyone could say anything.

48:38

Yeah. Whereas when I look at what Mike

48:40

does extraordinarily in a very different way in

48:42

the way Lotus, All of those

48:44

characters are so perfectly uniquely defined.

48:47

You could never take a line

48:49

and put a swatman between characters

48:51

because how he imagines being the

48:53

Thai bodyguard and the three middle

48:55

-aged women and or a titan

48:57

of industry like me and also

48:59

an 18 -year -old and does it

49:01

so perfectly is is beyond it's

49:03

it's like something supernatural. I don't

49:05

think he ever saw you could never

49:07

have seen the success of White Lotus coming

49:09

like the West Wing. No, no. You

49:11

could those two shows on paper

49:13

in the culture and times within

49:16

which they were made are designed

49:18

to fail. I remember reading the

49:20

pilot of the West Wing. I

49:22

wasn't offered a pilot, I think, but maybe to

49:24

audition or something. I can't remember why, but I read

49:26

it thinking, I mean, it's about the other people

49:28

and not the president. That doesn't make any sense. All

49:31

the people in the back office, that's

49:33

just a terrible idea. Just

49:35

ludicrous, you know. I remember reading,

49:37

like, Lost. You're like, They're on

49:39

the fucking island the whole time.

49:42

They're never getting off the island. sent Lord of the Rings.

49:45

And I was like, wait a second. I mean, a giant fat

49:47

script. I kept on turning back to page one. Sorry, which

49:49

are the hairy ones? Which are the short ones? Is anyone

49:51

going to be able to keep track of these things? I kept

49:53

on. I had like a guide, a map of the front

49:55

page. Not that

49:57

that was enough for either. I don't want to, you know, the

50:00

hubris to be blinding. But there are

50:02

numbers of things I passed on that I

50:04

read and went. This is never going

50:06

to work. They've turned out to be massive

50:08

global successes for years. The career that

50:10

I didn't have from the exact past is

50:12

so much more impressive than the one

50:14

You just never... You just know... Okay, let

50:16

me ask you this. Is White Lotus

50:18

approaching Harry Potter for you in terms of

50:20

folks stopping you? It's so much bigger

50:22

than I thought it was. I knew

50:24

it was a great show. My family watched it. I

50:27

hadn't watched it because they wouldn't let me in the

50:29

room because I didn't start from episode one with them.

50:31

And so when they were on episode three or four,

50:33

it was during COVID night, I think I was always

50:35

washing up in the kitchen because they cooked the most

50:37

top. And they wouldn't let me, they said, got to

50:39

watch some episode one, daddy. And then when season two

50:41

came around, they're watching it together. They

50:43

went, you can't, you've got to see season one first. I'm

50:45

like, all right, banned from my own front room. So

50:48

I caught up, I watched it, it's fabulous,

50:50

but I cannot tell you how, you know, on

50:53

this publicity junket that we've been on all

50:55

of us for the last seven weeks, all over

50:57

the world. It seems like

50:59

every... I mean, you're in your own little echo

51:01

chamber. It feels like every biped on the planet has

51:03

both seen it and is obsessed with it. Now,

51:05

I know I'm in a bubble and that's not true,

51:07

but that's what it feels like. It

51:09

feels bigger than Harry Potter. Can't

51:11

be. And people still want to talk to

51:13

me about Harry Potter 20 years later. But

51:16

it's quite something. It's phenomenal. I

51:19

feel like... Because the way the

51:21

West Wing was like it felt like

51:23

like exacting you felt like everywhere

51:25

you went any room you went into

51:27

any restaurant anywhere on the street

51:29

You felt you could feel it in

51:31

the air. Yeah, that everybody was

51:33

watching Avid Lee and it doesn't happen

51:35

all the time and in 100 %

51:37

you feel it with with white

51:39

loads and they don't it's not just

51:41

they're watching it They're really thinking

51:43

about it and they're talking. Oh, yeah

51:45

What's odd is these young people

51:47

I come across you want to talk

51:49

about it or talking about it

51:51

like it's a brilliant, new, innovative way

51:53

to show television week by week. Like,

51:56

it's extraordinary because you get to talk about it in

51:58

social media and you go, you know, that's how it

52:00

always was until recently. It makes such

52:02

a difference that people have a week to... Such

52:04

a difference. know, marinate and all the rest

52:06

of it. I mean, look, I'm...

52:08

Ted Sarandas is one of my best

52:10

buddies and if he's listening, which he does

52:12

quite often. Ted, you could

52:14

turn this off right now. I

52:16

am a huge fan of... the

52:18

notion that there's some ceremony to

52:20

when the show comes out, as

52:22

opposed to just dumping it out

52:24

there. Oh, look,

52:26

I'm an addict. I can't stop myself. So

52:29

I binge shows when they're out. And there

52:31

is an exquisite agony in having to wait

52:33

a week. But during the agony,

52:35

you do get to say to people, I mean,

52:37

I was in a show on Netflix, which went

52:39

very, very well. Talk about

52:41

too much, I'll start crying. Ted, anyway,

52:44

called the OA, which was cancelled after two seasons. But

52:47

it had such a massive,

52:49

obsessed following, if it was Upload

52:51

on Friday, everyone would watch it

52:53

by Saturday morning. And so all that

52:55

money and all that time, you don't get to be

52:57

in the zeitgeist, you don't get to be in the

52:59

conversation, you don't. And so I

53:01

don't know, I'm loving, I am loving on behalf

53:03

of the audience, and me as a fan, the

53:06

White Loafs being week by week, I haven't seen

53:08

episode eight, and although I've read it,

53:10

think I know what happens and there's been an ending. I've

53:13

had to wait a week and I've been badgering

53:15

them at HBO and the publicist and everybody else

53:17

going, give me episode eight now and they won't.

53:19

Okay, let me ask you this. Is there any

53:21

way, any way in hell that whoever is dead

53:23

is not who you think is dead? I'm not

53:26

talking about the audience of perception. I'm talking about

53:28

somebody who read the script and shot the episode.

53:30

Well, my wife was there for five months and

53:32

she said to me, do you know which of

53:34

the endings Mike's chosen? I went, what?

53:36

which of the multiple endings she shot and

53:38

I went, what are you talking about? We

53:41

didn't shoot multiple endings. She goes, I know

53:43

you did. Well, she's completely wrong. So maybe

53:45

he went off and shot an ending that

53:47

I don't know about as well. I think

53:49

we all know exactly what's happening come Sunday

53:51

night. But quite, every episode came

53:53

in during the first edit about an

53:55

hour and a half. So lots

53:57

of things, it did actually change. I

53:59

mean, substantially from the original stories. People

54:01

lost things and things were reshaped. So

54:03

I'm not quite sure how everything will

54:05

play out, but I'm pretty sure I

54:07

know is. Wait, did you just

54:10

say that the initial edits of every episode came

54:12

in at an hour and a half? They were

54:14

long, yeah. Oh, that's what Mike told me. They

54:16

were long. And I've heard from other people they

54:18

were long. I mean, look, he writes all these

54:20

gorgeous stuff and then you shoot it and space,

54:22

you know, things take more time or they stick

54:24

monkeys in between or something. It's better to have

54:26

too much than too little. And we all notice

54:29

which bits are cut. We're all texting each other.

54:31

Me and my kids, Patrick,

54:33

Sam, Sarah, and Katharine, constantly texting each other

54:35

about bits that feel like we've had

54:37

organs cut out when we've lost a line

54:39

or something. Oh, God,

54:41

I remember. It hurts. Well, that was

54:43

the thing about going back to West

54:45

Wing. Nothing was ever cut because it was

54:47

so... Perfect. Aaron was so...

54:49

Yeah, he just works in a different

54:51

way where it's so precise. So

54:53

you would watch it and you'd never have

54:56

the, oh god, they cut my left arm off

54:58

in that scene. And we all know what

55:00

that's like. There's nothing worse. So why stories that

55:02

kind of in the ether were that near

55:04

the end... Aaron, such a perfectionist, and also so,

55:06

I don't know, obsessive, whatever the words are,

55:08

that aren't too negative, would be locked

55:10

in his trend. You'd be waiting for pages to

55:12

come under the door. You'd be on the set

55:15

waiting, and then it delivered. It'll be golden, but

55:17

that was why in the end you had a

55:19

new showrunner. Is that how it was? It wasn't

55:21

on the end. It was always like that. I

55:23

mean, you have to understand, Aaron

55:25

did, on the first season of

55:27

West Wing, I think he

55:29

did the single greatest writing accomplishment,

55:32

and it'll never be... Um, repeated he

55:34

wrote 22 episodes of sports night

55:37

and 22 episodes of the West Wing

55:39

in the same season And by

55:41

the way, I'm not I'm he didn't

55:43

he had no staff. I mean,

55:45

yes He had a staff there are

55:47

some of my great friends who

55:49

were great writers were on the staff

55:52

But they'll be the first to

55:54

tell you Aaron every single year at

55:56

every single thing so There were

55:58

about David Kelly as well. There are

56:00

other credit writers, but every syllable

56:02

has come through his pen or his

56:05

thing his keyboard The great ones

56:07

you can always tell I think they

56:09

have a voice they have a

56:11

vision David, you know, and you know

56:13

that David Chase, you know, sopranos

56:15

was a mad wine on madman as

56:17

well And Mike Mike is a

56:20

phenomenon. It's a it's upsetting that they

56:22

have new castes every season Because

56:24

when you come across people like that,

56:26

you just go, I want to do your next thing.

56:29

I just want to be part of the Repertory Company

56:31

forever. I don't want to say

56:33

anybody else's lines. How about Mike? Now he

56:35

just travels the world going, what amazing hotel

56:37

do I want to? I remember I was

56:39

at, I forget where I was, somewhere really

56:41

great. And they were like, some

56:43

insane hotel. And like, we're in the

56:45

final, it's between us and one other

56:47

place for White Lotus. Like the hotel

56:49

was an actor. Yeah, yeah, no, well, they

56:51

are the locations. I mean, Thailand specifically

56:53

is a place chose not just for

56:55

looks like, but because that's where people go

56:58

to seek spiritual enlightenment. So that's

57:00

a whole extra theme. People who wanted

57:02

the show to be repeating itself and who

57:04

are the same characters as last time

57:06

and who are misunderstanding the nature of his

57:08

artistry and his ambition and his growth,

57:10

even as an artist that, you know, this

57:12

time, it's I think it's much richer,

57:14

much more profound and much more moving. Certainly

57:16

my character's journey, the one who's who

57:19

couldn't be further from someone seeking enlightenment is

57:21

the one who is stripped down to the essence

57:23

of his core with everything gone. Who am

57:25

I if I'm none of the things I thought

57:27

I was and the things I thought I

57:29

had and the way people looked at me. It's

57:32

so clever and so human. There's

57:35

no archetypes. There's nothing taken off a

57:37

shelf. He's not making any political points. It's

57:39

almost like the characters speak to him

57:41

and he records it. He doesn't start with

57:43

a political agenda or something. Well,

57:46

I'm in love with him. I am in

57:48

love with him. What the hell? Well, no, listen,

57:50

are you kidding me? I've fallen in love

57:52

with anybody who gives me great language. Yeah, yeah.

57:54

Well, I didn't have any words. Unfortunately, it

57:57

was a big challenge with this. And I phoned him when I was

57:59

off at the job. It wasn't like I wasn't going to take the

58:01

job because it's Mike and Mike Lotus. But I did say, Mike,

58:03

what am I going to do? I'm out

58:05

of my head on downers for like five or

58:07

six episodes, not speaking. How is the audience

58:09

going to know anything I'm thinking? He goes, well,

58:11

you think it and I'll try and capture

58:13

it. And, you know, the unspoken sentence

58:15

was, and if it's boring, I'll cut away from you. But

58:18

it's a tough, it was a

58:20

tough challenge to think, am

58:22

I just going to be like this idiot asleep

58:24

in the corner for all these episodes? And I tried

58:27

not to be. And you're great

58:29

in it, and it's great. And enjoy the ride,

58:31

because you know how it is. They come

58:33

around every once in a while. I do know

58:35

how it is. And it's funny being around.

58:37

but not just the youngsters playing my kids, but

58:39

some the others are all younger than me,

58:41

watching this moment where everybody's in the kind of

58:43

white heat of the volcano and knowing I've

58:45

had a few before that, you know, this time

58:47

next week, I get on the subway and

58:49

I go to Ralph's and nobody gives you a

58:51

second look. And I know that when you're

58:53

younger, you can feel like you've arrived and you

58:55

do all these meetings in Hollywood and you

58:57

leave every meeting and you think, oh my God,

58:59

they love me. I actually might be the

59:01

greatest actor they've ever worked to face the planet.

59:04

I better make space in my cupboard because

59:06

scripts are going to be arriving this afternoon by

59:08

the truckload. And I keep counselling my friends

59:10

because you know we came very friendly lots of

59:12

us take a job quite soon Don't think

59:14

that this flow will continue forever. It's a wonderful

59:16

moment, but it passes Take a job quite

59:18

soon. I love you know always to I always

59:20

say to my friends writers and directors And

59:22

I go when before a films comes out get

59:24

your next film set up because it might

59:26

take it's never hotter than before it's come out.

59:29

I Love that. It's true. Thank you.

59:31

My friend is this is so

59:33

great lovely to not meet you It

59:35

was lovely to be at arm's

59:37

length with you. Well, I'm a

59:39

little bit gamey, to be honest with you. I was

59:41

up this morning, did the seven -minute workout, no time

59:43

for a shower. There's a lot of spray of

59:46

antiperspirant, so you're better off on the screen. Good. I

59:48

love it. Well, this was great. I'll tell your

59:50

son, Patrick. Tell Arnold to back off.

59:52

He's mine now. He was like, text me when

59:54

you're done. Text me when you're done. So I'm going

59:56

to text him and say you're super fun, super

59:58

fun. All right. Well, lovely to meet you. And sorry,

1:00:00

I was looking up at the screen all the

1:00:02

time, and you just saw the whites of my eyes.

1:00:04

All right, brother. Thank you. I

1:00:13

would love to be

1:00:15

stuck on a fancy hotel

1:00:17

drinking non -alcoholic Mai Thais

1:00:19

with him. Super funny

1:00:21

dude. I think he

1:00:23

probably made six months in

1:00:26

the sweltering heat of Thailand go

1:00:28

down very easily. Thank

1:00:30

you, guys. I mean so

1:00:32

much to me that you participate

1:00:34

on the show and some of you

1:00:36

coming up to me on the street and

1:00:38

saying, I'm loving the podcast, really makes

1:00:40

a huge difference. And I really do appreciate

1:00:42

it. And we're going to be back

1:00:44

bringing you some more good stuff next time

1:00:46

on Literally. You've

1:00:48

been listening to literally with Rob

1:00:51

Lowe produced by me, Sean

1:00:53

Doherty, with help from associate producer

1:00:55

Sarah Bagar and research by

1:00:57

Alyssa Growl. Engineering and mixing by

1:00:59

Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers

1:01:01

are Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile,

1:01:03

Nick Liao, Adam Saxon, Jeff

1:01:05

Ross for Team Coco, and Colin

1:01:07

Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by

1:01:10

Deirdre Dodd, music by Devin Bryant,

1:01:12

special thanks to Hidden City Studios.

1:01:15

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next

1:01:17

time on Literally. All

1:01:23

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