0:00

It's time for Mac Break Weekly.

0:02

Andy, Alex, and Jason are all

0:04

here. Big shakeup in the executive

0:06

suite at Apple, all tied to

0:08

the AI failure, has Apple lost

0:10

its luster? That's the question. We'll

0:13

ask. Also, vibe coding. It's coming

0:15

to the world, but it's not

0:17

coming to Apple. Tim, don't kill

0:19

my vibe. We'll talk about that

0:21

and a whole lot more. It's

0:24

all coming up next on Mac

0:26

Break Weekly. Podcasts

0:28

You Love from People

0:31

You Trust. This is

0:33

Twit. This is Mac

0:35

Break Weekly, episode 965,

0:38

recorded Tuesday, March 25th,

0:40

2025. A lot of

0:43

goodwill to squander. It's

0:45

time for Mac Break

0:48

Weekly. The show we cover

0:50

the latest Apple News. And

0:52

of course we do it

0:54

with the best people. In

0:57

the business, Jason Snell is

0:59

here from Six colors.com. Hello,

1:01

Jason. Present? Present and accounted

1:04

for. Present? Sir, present? You

1:06

have lovely blue eyes. I didn't

1:08

notice that before. Thank you, man.

1:10

Oh, yes. That's what they tell

1:12

me. Yeah. My children both had

1:14

blue eyes, too. Oh, isn't that

1:16

nice? My wife, who has brown

1:18

eyes, was like, basically, come on,

1:20

you gotta give me blue eye children.

1:22

And mission accomplished. Yep, yep, yep,

1:24

yep. How many Apple executives have

1:26

gotten lost in those eyes during your

1:28

briefing, Jason? That's a little bit

1:30

more than they should have. That's

1:32

the green eye, Andy and Ako.

1:34

Hello, Andrew. Good to see you.

1:37

Also here, Alex Lindsay, from Office

1:39

Hours. Global, who like me, has

1:41

poop brown eyes. You don't even have

1:43

to, you don't, you take loads of

1:46

pictures and there's like no, nothing, nothing

1:48

eyes. Brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown

1:50

eyes. I don't know why your eyes

1:53

are bluer than ever, Jason. They really

1:55

are. There's something going on. It's my

1:57

dock pop microphone. That's it. It really

1:59

brings out my eyes. Your eyes are

2:02

popping. That is the ultimate podcast or

2:04

pickup line. Your mic pop brings out

2:06

the color of your eyes. I don't

2:08

know where to start here. There's all

2:11

sorts of stuff going on in the

2:13

Apple world. It's losing a billion dollars

2:15

a year, according to courts on Apple

2:17

TV plus. And which was actually, the

2:20

information broke that story, but the information,

2:22

let's give the information credit. Okay, yeah.

2:24

And we have to remember that at

2:26

the same timeline that Netflix was running,

2:29

they were losing a lot more. So

2:31

this is, this is actually, Apple's actually

2:33

being fairly, is what you're saying. Well,

2:35

there's, there's like a balance here. Like,

2:38

number, number one, all streaming services are

2:40

finding it hard to struggle. Number two,

2:42

Apple, unlike the competition, they can absorb

2:45

that. they don't like they they're not

2:47

business not relying on it so it's

2:49

possible they have they have motives and

2:51

motivations for that service that go beyond

2:54

simply having a profitable single streaming service

2:56

and third yeah but Netflix was like

2:58

inventing a product category. It's probably, it's

3:00

significant, but maybe not terribly significant though,

3:03

that they're spending $5 billion a year

3:05

losing a billion dollars a billion dollars

3:07

a year on a service. But nonetheless,

3:09

the fact that it is one of

3:12

the, it has managed to create a

3:14

prestige streaming service. It's not just an

3:16

also rant. That's pretty significant too. Interesting

3:18

information because Apple doesn't give out any

3:21

data whatsoever. Unless it's severance or Ted

3:23

Lasso, which has been renewed by the

3:25

way for another season, super hits, they

3:27

don't tell any information. So every time

3:30

the information or somebody gets information about

3:32

exactly the streaming numbers, the viewership numbers,

3:34

the profitability, that's something to talk about

3:37

for all week long. Tim Cook apparently.

3:39

This is all from the information. Great,

3:41

as usual, great scoop from Wayne Ma,

3:43

who's really good at covering Apple, was

3:46

asked last year about Apple TV, plus

3:48

it's the only Apple subscription service that

3:50

is losing money, according to two people,

3:52

to direct knowledge of the matter. They

3:55

asked him about Argyll. Remember that? That

3:57

was the one with the spy and

3:59

the cat. Yeah, bad movie. Bad movie.

4:01

I really was ready for it. I

4:04

thought it's going to be great. I

4:06

love a cat, but no. 200 million

4:08

dollars to make. Hadn't found much of

4:10

an audience, according to Wayne, or generated

4:13

more subscribers. Cook told his colleagues, according

4:15

to a former Apple TV plus employee.

4:17

Subscriptions are 45 million, which ain't bad.

4:19

I mean, if they're losing money, it's

4:22

because they're spending money, right? Yeah, there's

4:24

some churn going on. So I don't

4:26

think them spending money is a big

4:29

deal. They seem to be losing less

4:31

money than they used to, which is

4:33

also a good direction for them to

4:35

go in. They also seem to be

4:38

reducing their spend, especially on the movie

4:40

spend, especially on the movie side. And

4:42

when you mention a $200 million movie,

4:44

it does not take very many expensive

4:47

movies to lose a billion dollars. You

4:49

can do it real quick. And they've...

4:51

Netflix's situation was different, but the cost

4:53

of content is still enormous. My understanding

4:56

is Netflix spends more money on licensing

4:58

catalog titles from other companies than Apple

5:00

spends on originals today. Like it's just

5:02

the money involved here is enormous. So

5:05

you see a billion and you think

5:07

oh my goodness, it used to, the

5:09

money involved here is enormous. So you

5:11

see a billion and you think, oh

5:14

my goodness, it used to be a

5:16

billion and a half that they were

5:18

losing and they're spending five billion and

5:21

they're also won't tell anybody anything. is

5:23

I saw a number that suggested that

5:25

the churn rate, which is how people

5:27

kind of come on and then go

5:30

back off and come on and go

5:32

back off, that Apple's churn rate for

5:34

TV Plus is a lot higher than

5:36

most other services. And honestly... given it's

5:39

limited catalog, even though it's catalogs a

5:41

lot better than it used to be,

5:43

that's not too surprising. I hear from

5:45

a lot of people who say, well,

5:48

yeah, I signed up, I watched severance,

5:50

and then I dropped off, and maybe

5:52

I watched a couple of things while

5:54

severance was on, but then I'm done.

5:57

So that's part of their challenge is

5:59

to reduce the churn rate. And then

6:01

the other data point that came out

6:03

of this whole hubbub about Apple TV

6:06

Plus data is that. Some very positive

6:08

numbers about subscription pickup since Apple TV

6:10

Plus has been available as an Amazon

6:13

video channel where you can buy TV

6:15

Plus and add it to your Amazon

6:17

package like many others. That was a

6:19

new thing that Apple did and it

6:22

looks like according to these third party

6:24

metrics where they're kind of making guesses

6:26

is that that Apple has actually had

6:28

quite a bit of success from that

6:31

in adding to TV Plus's mix. So,

6:33

you know, it is kind of the

6:35

very definition of a hobby, which is

6:37

that it's a thing you want to

6:40

do, but you're not making any money

6:42

and you're probably losing money on it.

6:44

But I don't find it. troubling and

6:46

I think interestingly the the tenor of

6:49

a lot of these reports in Hollywood

6:51

circles is seems to me to be

6:53

like please Apple please stop spending money

6:55

keep spending money on us please keep

6:58

spending money on us please keep spending

7:00

money on us please keep spending money

7:02

in Hollywood and I know folks that

7:05

work on Apple work on some of

7:07

the Apple productions and they're like it's

7:09

the best in fact it's hard to

7:11

go back catering is excellent friend of

7:14

mine friend of mine was working on

7:16

an Apple one and then and then

7:18

immediately finished it went to Hulu went

7:20

to Hulu and he was just like

7:23

oh it was just like oh it's

7:25

just like playing football on pavement, you

7:27

know, compared to like, you know, and

7:29

he said it's not so much that

7:32

it was like that the catering was

7:34

better, he said just everything is organized

7:36

and there's enough money to do all

7:38

the things you wanted to do and

7:41

you're not you're not constantly, you know,

7:43

trying to figure out where you're going

7:45

to get pens, you know, like all

7:47

those things are kind of managed because

7:50

there's enough money to do it. Often

7:52

we'll look at almost everything that Apple

7:54

releases. I don't really pay much attention

7:57

to what the other ones are other

7:59

releasing But I pay a lot of

8:01

attention to like what is Apple going

8:03

to release next because I'm going to

8:06

give it a chance because the quality

8:08

is so high. You know, and it

8:10

doesn't mean that they're all like, I

8:12

watched the Gorge, which was kind of

8:15

a yawner. You know, like I finally

8:17

watched it, it took a couple weeks

8:19

to come around to it. And I

8:21

think you had to be desperate before,

8:24

but who doesn't love Anna Taylor Joy?

8:26

So, right. I just, it looked like

8:28

an interesting puzzle. So the pitching it.

8:30

They're pitching it with a quote from

8:33

some sort of weird, unknown. Internet TV

8:35

reviewer as. the hitman romcom you've been

8:37

waiting for it it was it was

8:39

it was right up there with red

8:42

notice like like you know like that

8:44

was not great either i know i'm

8:46

just saying like red notice gray man

8:49

you know gray man was a huge

8:51

money was a huge money loser for

8:53

netflix that was a three million million

8:55

dollars but i'm saying from a cost

8:58

perspective it's kind of like it's a

9:00

formula it kind of like we'll do

9:02

these things for there and and and

9:04

and and and i think that that

9:07

has not been very successful for most

9:09

of most of the most of the

9:11

streamers in general. And yet Apple has

9:13

some great shows. I mean, Ted Lasso,

9:16

Severance, Slow Horses, there's some great stuff

9:18

on there. Presumed, presumed innocent. I mean,

9:20

I thought was really good. I don't

9:22

know if you saw it on, but

9:25

it was. Dark Matter, great. A lot

9:27

of good ones. It's just like Jason

9:29

said, it's like I decided to cancel

9:31

once I realized that I would, I

9:34

would have like a two-week period in

9:36

which I was all in streaming, streaming,

9:38

streaming, there was I was just not

9:41

watching it for another couple of months.

9:43

So like I'm right now I'm planning

9:45

on renewing for as long as it

9:47

takes to get caught up on the

9:50

to get caught up on severance. Then

9:52

I'll probably cancel and then renew again

9:54

for Ted Lasso season four and severance

9:56

season three. and whatever else seems to

9:59

a deep catalog and the ads are

10:01

so horrible exactly and the ads are

10:03

so horrible and Max slash HBO Max

10:05

because they have so many great movies

10:08

not just current movies but old ones

10:10

like as I as I keep diving

10:12

in I never run out of things

10:14

to watch but Hulu Netflix Apple TV

10:17

I can kind of take them for

10:19

a while then leave them for a

10:21

while and just with their prices keeping

10:23

going up it's like I feel like

10:26

a dope for not I wonder what

10:28

percentage of Apple will never tell us

10:30

this Apple TV plus users are actually

10:33

subscribed to Apple one and get it

10:35

as part of a larger package. I

10:37

would not churn because I'm getting also

10:39

I cloud. That's why I don't entirely

10:42

believe the churn numbers and Apple I've

10:44

seen some reports about these and I

10:46

think it's antenna group numbers that suggest

10:48

that people inside Apple don't think they're

10:51

entirely accurate because of the way that

10:53

they're being measured and that you've got

10:55

things that are in the bundle and

10:57

there's all sorts of different ways to

11:00

get it. But it's worth, I mean,

11:02

the truth is Apple's business doesn't stand

11:04

or fall on this. In that way,

11:06

they are like prime video where they've

11:09

got a whole- It's one percent of

11:11

their profit. It's a teeny tiny bit.

11:13

And I think the truth is, they

11:15

like being connected to Hollywood. They like

11:18

getting nominated for awards. They like basking

11:20

in the glow of it. And also,

11:22

it serves a purpose. We talked about

11:25

the last time Apple did their quarterly

11:27

results. that there's all this talk about

11:29

the services narrative and the truth is

11:31

apples services narrative which is it keeps

11:34

growing it's a huge part of their

11:36

business it's it's it's more than the

11:38

Mac and the iPad put together at

11:40

this point and growing 96 billion dollars

11:43

enormous part of their business and actually

11:45

Apple TV plus puts a face on

11:47

that surface line even though it is

11:49

a tiny portion of it because the

11:52

truth is most of the services is

11:54

app store revenue it's Google Kickbacks you

11:56

know it's not it's it's Apple Care

11:58

revenue it's boring stuff or stuff Apple

12:01

doesn't want people to talk about you

12:03

know there's a little Apple music in

12:05

there, but like the entertainment stuff kind

12:07

of launders Apple's strategy a little bit

12:10

in making it be like, oh yeah,

12:12

services, I get it, Ted Lasso, and

12:14

it's like, well, Ted Lasso is not

12:17

throwing off, you know, 20, 30 billion

12:19

dollars, but that's okay. And it doesn't,

12:21

to your point, we need to call

12:23

it a marketing budget. Yeah, yeah, that's,

12:26

in fact, Ted Sarandos, one of the

12:28

CEOs of Netflix, said exactly that. He

12:30

says, I don't really understand what they're

12:32

doing. Last week he did an interview

12:35

with Variety. I don't get what they're

12:37

doing, but I guess it's good marketing.

12:39

Yeah. I understand. He says, I don't

12:41

understand it be on a marketing play,

12:44

but they're really smart people. Maybe they

12:46

see something we don't. I'm sorry, go

12:48

ahead, you're talking. All I was going

12:50

to say is that you're sure, but

12:53

I think that the last three standing,

12:55

if there gets down to three, it's

12:57

going to be Apple, Amazon, and Netflix,

12:59

because Netflix is making so much money

13:02

and Apple, Amazon, don't need to make

13:04

money. The rest of them are all

13:06

trying to figure out how to actually

13:09

make money, the rest of them are

13:11

all trying to figure out how to

13:13

actually make a profit, predators that are

13:15

not close yet, but they can probably

13:18

see the trajectory if they just keep

13:20

dumping money into it. You know, it's

13:22

not. There is some sense that none

13:24

of the services on Apple One are

13:27

quite as good as competing services. I-Cloud's

13:29

not as good as Dropbox. And Apple

13:31

News is not as great as some

13:33

of the freeze offerings. And Apple Music

13:36

is, the growth is stalled. It's not,

13:38

it's like good. third of Spotify. You

13:40

know, that in every case fitness plus

13:42

is fine, but there are better standalone

13:45

fitness applications out there. As a bundle,

13:47

I think it's good, but Apple Arcade

13:49

is not bringing people to the table.

13:51

I can tell you that. The information

13:54

report also included some news, some information

13:56

about Apple Arcade basically saying it's unlikely

13:58

to be profitable, unquote, as a standalone

14:01

service. And also, there's a lot of...

14:03

of, we're asked, look, if you compare

14:05

Apple Arcade to Apple Music, Apple Music,

14:07

they keep putting lots and lots of

14:10

new services into it, they keep putting

14:12

lots and lots of new. Classical Spin

14:14

Up dated, we'll talk about that later,

14:16

because I know you're a fan, they

14:19

added DJ, they added DJ features to

14:21

Apple Music, all the sort of stuff.

14:23

Apple Arcade, however, it's like every time

14:25

that there's a big announcement about, hey,

14:28

we've adding X, Y, Y, and Z

14:30

to this, like, that's a mobile game

14:32

that. first appeared on iPhone and Android

14:34

in 2014. There's a really good news

14:37

gaming news site, mobile gamer dot biz,

14:39

for dot biz. It's actually very, they

14:41

did a couple of really good reports

14:43

talking to people who are working in

14:46

inside the ecosystem and basically saying the

14:48

payouts are like dribbling down to nothing.

14:50

Apple is vindictive if they find that

14:53

your studio is working with Amazon or

14:55

anybody else. and they're just about had

14:57

it. But the thing is, as a

14:59

value add to the iPhone, as a

15:02

parent to say, well, no, I'm not

15:04

going to give you unfettered access to

15:06

the app store to buy the games

15:08

you want. However, I will let you

15:11

have this walled garden, this protective sphere

15:13

in which there are no in-app purchases.

15:15

Everything's been vetted for kids, and it's

15:17

not something that I think I need

15:20

to keep a close eye on. For

15:22

that, it helps to sell iPhones. and

15:24

helps us all iPhones, helps to sell

15:26

Apple One membership. It's, it's, it's, we

15:29

should be talking about whether something is,

15:31

could be, could survive on its own

15:33

or not. It's an interesting discussion. But

15:35

again, when Apple is making, is a

15:38

3.4 trillion dollar company, they have the

15:40

ability to, unlike Spotify, to keep this

15:42

thing going just because it helps out

15:44

with a larger, larger ecosystem. And that's

15:47

why Netflix, not necessarily scared, but they're

15:49

aware that Netflix faces challenges challenges. in

15:51

the business community that Apple TV Apple

15:54

TV Plus absolutely does not. Extensions of

15:56

the brand is a really great way

15:58

to look at this. You could all.

16:00

say that a lot of these services

16:03

are the online equivalent of you go

16:05

into an Apple store to buy an

16:07

iPhone and you know you could say

16:09

no I don't want a case I'll

16:11

go on Amazon or I'll go find

16:14

a website that recommends a case and

16:16

I'll buy a case but you know

16:18

what I'm at the Apple store Give

16:21

me the Apple case. And you know,

16:23

that's why, and oh, you have airpods

16:25

here. Okay, give me the Airpods. And

16:27

like, there is real power in just

16:29

kind of, and Alex has talked about

16:32

this a lot on this show, on

16:34

just sort of like relaxing and falling

16:36

into the soft embrace of Apple. And

16:38

it is easier. The products are good.

16:41

Some of them have better products out

16:43

there. Some of them don't, but like

16:45

they're good. They're comfortable. They work. really

16:47

well with all of Apple stuff. They're

16:49

integrated. And if you pay a little

16:52

bit more for them, like if you're

16:54

willing to pay for that convenience, and

16:56

they're very profitable for Apple, and that

16:58

goes for these services too. Like I

17:00

still pay for Dropbox. I still pay

17:02

for Dropbox. I've gotten a lot better.

17:04

There are still things that doesn't do

17:06

that I need that Dropbox does. But

17:08

I like Apple TV plus. I have

17:11

people keep telling me that News Plus

17:13

is actually way better than it used

17:15

to be. journal articles on it, that's

17:17

nice. And it's just, but that's part

17:19

of the way to look at this

17:21

is that Apple is playing a big picture

17:23

game with some of these investments because they

17:25

just want you to feel good about Apple

17:28

and Apple stuff and be in the ecosystem

17:30

and be tied to Apple in every way

17:32

possible. And they know there's competition and that

17:34

some of their customers are going to take

17:37

advantage of the competition and they're fine with

17:39

that. have beer in your life in lots

17:41

of ways and and make it easy for

17:43

you to give them more money. Is it

17:45

analogous to page his numbers keynote that they

17:48

kind of it's the freebie that you get?

17:50

Yeah but except those are I mean actually better

17:52

free free. I mean other people use

17:54

them but I mean there's there's nothing

17:56

that says that you're a cog in

17:58

a large machine like my Microsoft Office,

18:00

you know, like, and so. Yeah, but

18:02

I still get everything in DocX format,

18:05

right? Everybody's using it. Yeah, but the

18:07

thing is, is that they're not, I

18:09

mean, as someone who's used both of

18:11

them for 20, 25 years, I mean.

18:13

a lot more people use word, but

18:15

it's not better. And the letters will

18:18

use, like Excel, if you're going to

18:20

do huge numbers to calculate something that's

18:22

near the level of an ERP, then

18:24

Excel is definitely better than numbers. But

18:26

if you're organizing budgets, numbers is faster

18:29

and easier and looks nicer. And keynote,

18:31

no one in my world. talk, starts

18:33

talking about PowerPoint being better than keynote.

18:35

You know, like, you know, like, you

18:37

know, like, no one, like, when people

18:40

start saying that, you just stop listening

18:42

to them. Like, you know, you're just

18:44

like, I can't hear you anymore because

18:46

I can tell you when the slides

18:48

are one or the other, you know.

18:51

And so, so the, so I think

18:53

that those are a little different in

18:55

the sense that I think Apple actually

18:57

produces something that has been a problem,

18:59

you know, it started, as early as

19:01

when Steve Jobs was trying to get

19:04

everything back together. He gets in there,

19:06

the house is on fire, he keeps

19:08

on putting one room out after another,

19:10

and they make this deal, some people

19:12

would say to keep direct macromedia director

19:15

on the Mac, they buy final cut,

19:17

they want to prove that you could

19:19

build. something on top of quick time.

19:21

It was a kind of an experiment.

19:23

And then Abbott comes out and says,

19:26

we're going to drop the Mac platform

19:28

while the whole house is on fire.

19:30

And there was something about Apple not

19:32

wanting to ever be accountable to anyone.

19:34

Because again, they had to do a

19:37

bunch of stuff to keep Microsoft office

19:39

on the Mac until they built their

19:41

own office tools. And so there's all

19:43

the stuff of their survival was. external

19:45

to Apple. And I think that there's

19:47

always this thing at Apple wanting to

19:50

make sure that all the things that

19:52

their users use on a daily basis

19:54

is something that they make a version

19:56

of. It doesn't have to be the

19:58

best version, it just has to be

20:01

a version that is a good solid

20:03

solution. And you know, I think that

20:05

the notes is probably my most used

20:07

Apple piece of software. So, you know,

20:09

because it's just, it's, as Jason said,

20:12

it's ubiquitous, it's easy. Yeah, but nobody

20:14

says, oh, I'm gonna buy a Macintosh

20:16

because I can use notes. No, but

20:18

man, but I couldn't, I couldn't, if

20:20

I couldn't, if I couldn't, if I

20:23

go. outside of my Apple ecosystem. This

20:25

is an example to your point. No

20:27

one buys it for notes. But as

20:29

soon as I go outside the Apple

20:31

ecosystem, I don't even know how to

20:33

live. It's the overall play rather than

20:36

any individual. And the thing is that

20:38

Apple allows, you know, by having all

20:40

of these things working, like maps is

20:42

a good example. I hated maps when

20:44

it came out. I wouldn't, I installed

20:47

Google Maps immediately, but. It slowly wore

20:49

me down because every link that someone

20:51

sends you on messages or whatever takes

20:53

you to the Apple maps, right? And

20:55

then after a while, you're just like,

20:58

well, it's easier. And then to Apple's

21:00

credit, it got to a point where

21:02

if I went back to Google Docs,

21:04

I felt like I dropped back three

21:06

or four years, and because Apple put

21:09

billions of dollars. They don't talk about

21:11

how much they lost, but I don't

21:13

know what they spent on maps, but

21:15

it was. So much money like so

21:17

much money to make that after they

21:19

got embarrassed. I'm gonna say something controversial.

21:22

And maybe I'm wrong. I read like

21:24

apples and I feel like apples in

21:26

trouble. I feel like the Apple intelligence

21:28

thing is the tip of the iceberg.

21:30

What we just described is a bunch

21:33

of also rans, not quite the best.

21:35

If Microsoft had a decent product with

21:37

Windows, I think it would be real

21:39

problematic. I'm getting and this is maybe

21:41

this is just me. So you guys

21:44

tell me I'm full of it. I'm

21:46

getting a little tired of Tim Cook.

21:48

I see him and I'm starting to

21:50

think, there's no, there's no artistic creativity

21:52

there. Here's going to China and saying,

21:55

yeah, that deep sea is pretty darn

21:57

good. He's a company. He's starting to

21:59

remind me of a McKenzie consultant. It

22:01

doesn't excite me. And I think Apple's

22:03

got a problem. You know, Google just

22:05

announced they're going to put Gemini into

22:08

their Android auto so that you will

22:10

have an AI now in your auto.

22:12

You know, Apple's not going to say,

22:14

hey, good news, you got Siri. I

22:16

feel like, am I wrong? But I

22:19

feel like the shine is coming off

22:21

the Apple a little bit. I agree

22:23

with some of what you're saying. I

22:25

don't think he likes to take, excuse

22:27

me, from what I've seen Apple actually

22:30

accomplish, I don't know if Apple in

22:32

2025 loves to take the really big

22:34

swing. They love to make moves that

22:36

make a lot of sense that fit

22:38

into a larger business plan. I don't

22:41

think that they're as in love with

22:43

disruption, even self-disruption as they once were.

22:45

I think that's natural for a company

22:47

of Apple size and its age, but

22:49

the fact they're a three and a

22:51

half trillion dollar company means that whatever

22:54

they're doing, it's making sense from a

22:56

business point of view. I do think

22:58

that their success is because the competition

23:00

is so weak. Well, Microsoft and Google,

23:02

we're producing products. that were competitive, but

23:05

when I look at, you know, I'm

23:07

all Apple, right? Everywhere I look, it's

23:09

Apple. But if I were to look

23:11

at leaving Apple, it's hard to put

23:13

together anything near the cohesive platform that

23:16

Apple offers. And I think that's a

23:18

failure of the competition as much as

23:20

anything else. Apple's winning by default is

23:22

how I feel. There is a lot

23:24

of you can define better a whole

23:27

bunch of different ways and the thing

23:29

is Microsoft office is better than I

23:31

work in many ways Google workspace is

23:33

better than I work in so many

23:35

ways and that that way is that

23:37

every everybody can come in and play

23:40

on an equal playing route. It's not

23:42

like, oh, well, if you don't have

23:44

a mid-range to expensive desktop machine made

23:46

by Apple, you can kind of get

23:48

a web version of this going, as

23:51

opposed to if you spend a lot

23:53

of time learning how to be extremely

23:55

efficient in Google Workspace on Microsoft Office,

23:57

no matter what job you're hired to

23:59

do for the next 10 years, you

24:02

can plug right in and do it.

24:04

If you are the master. of Apple's

24:06

sheets. That's nice. Hopefully you can translate

24:08

that into what the address of the

24:10

company actually uses and you'll be competing

24:13

with people who've been using sheets for

24:15

the last 10 years. And that's a

24:17

lot of what Apple does. If they

24:19

have one weakness that I don't like,

24:21

it's that they've never proven their ability

24:24

to compete on a global basis on

24:26

a level playing field with everybody else.

24:28

Notes is amazing. And it also helps

24:30

to it's a... It's a bona fide

24:32

gift to everybody who owns Apple hardware.

24:34

It is such a great showcase for

24:37

the iPad in the way that no

24:39

third-party notes app can possibly do, maybe

24:41

because of the restrictions that Apple puts

24:43

on other developers. But... If Apple had

24:45

to make a notes app that says,

24:48

well, what if it doesn't work on

24:50

this one platform? What if it doesn't

24:52

work on the operating system that we

24:54

created using the APIs that we created

24:56

on the hardware that we created? How

24:59

good of a notes app could they

25:01

create? And they probably... you wouldn't think

25:03

that they are the company that quote

25:05

gets it in terms of user interface.

25:07

So I think that I think that

25:10

if there's one thing and this is

25:12

something that came up in the six

25:14

colors like annual report card over and

25:16

over again I really think that how

25:18

whatever focus they're putting on the quality

25:20

of their software they need to add

25:23

more improvements to that they need to

25:25

really really improve the quality of their

25:27

releases they need to improve their vision

25:29

for where the OS is going hopefully

25:31

we'll see some of that. later this

25:34

year, as a rumor, there's going to

25:36

be a big rewrite of iOS with

25:38

implications for MacOS. Hopefully it won't just

25:40

be a freshening up or, well, we

25:42

want to make this look like VisionOS.

25:45

I don't think that they like doing

25:47

that. And that's one of their big

25:49

weaknesses. That's one thing that I think

25:51

that Tim, being a logistics guy, not

25:53

that I have a really masterful understanding

25:56

of what makes him tick. I don't

25:58

think that he is by nature somebody

26:00

who is, well software is great, software

26:02

is awesome, software is the, yeah, the

26:04

hardware is wonderful, but unless the thing

26:06

is we can't upgrade the, we can't

26:09

upgrade the, we can't upgrade the, we

26:11

can't upgrade the, we can't upgrade the,

26:13

we can't upgrade the hardware more than

26:15

once a year, and users can upgrade

26:17

it more than three, once every three

26:20

or four year old phone, it keeps

26:22

getting brand new features that take advantage

26:24

the whole platform. I think Google gets

26:26

it, Microsoft to an extent gets it.

26:28

I'm not sure that Apple really gets

26:31

that, or at least that's not their

26:33

philosophy. I mean, I think that, I

26:35

mean, like, for instance, for Google, Google

26:37

Sheets, I mean, we use Google Sheets

26:39

all the time, but as soon as

26:42

I want to show it to an

26:44

external client, I take it out of

26:46

Google Sheets and put it in numbers

26:48

and make it look pretty. you know,

26:50

like, you know, and I can tell

26:52

you that if I know that you're

26:55

coming in with any other presentation platform

26:57

and I come in with a keynote

26:59

document, there's a 50-50 chance I'm going

27:01

to win. Like, you know, like, you

27:03

know, like, you know, like, you know,

27:06

like, they're 50-50. That's where I start

27:08

at and my hit ratio is in

27:10

the 90s. I think that There are

27:12

two kinds of people in a company,

27:14

maybe probably more, but I'll just take

27:17

two types of people. There are project

27:19

people and process people and there's people

27:21

who are project people who make, make,

27:23

make, make, do things, you know, and

27:25

they're typically the ones that have one

27:28

size like, oh, that guy, like he's

27:30

doing all this crazy stuff and everything

27:32

else and the process people come in

27:34

and have to clean everything up and

27:36

make it all work and everything else.

27:38

And you need about one project person

27:41

for every... 10 process people. But what

27:43

you want, in my opinion, as a

27:45

CEO oftentimes, is if you want to

27:47

do great things, you need a project

27:49

person as the CEO. If you want

27:52

to grow and build logistics, you have

27:54

a process CEO. And the problem is

27:56

that Tim is a process person who

27:58

has been able to take Apple to

28:00

places that Steve Jobs would have never

28:03

been capable of doing. So now they

28:05

have a scale that Steve Jobs could

28:07

not have done. like Tim Cook did

28:09

what Steve Jobs, Steve wouldn't have done

28:11

many things that Apple's done, added many

28:14

features, made things more complicated, did all

28:16

those other things, he would have said

28:18

no. And Apple would be half the

28:20

size it is today if Steve was

28:22

running it, in my opinion. But what

28:24

I and we would have been excited

28:27

about some product or something else. The

28:29

biggest thing that I feel like the

28:31

Apple intelligence is is a symptom. I

28:33

don't think it's the turning point. I

28:35

think it's the turning point. is having

28:38

a problem with not saying no. Like

28:40

what Steve Jobs was really good at

28:42

is just throwing things away, you know,

28:44

and saying no, we're not going to

28:46

go down that path or we spent,

28:49

I know we spent $500 million on

28:51

this product and we're not going to

28:53

release it. And Apple still does that.

28:55

I mean, they spent, I don't know.

28:57

how many billions on a car that

29:00

they never released. But the point is,

29:02

is that is that what I see

29:04

constantly in most of the Apple apps,

29:06

or the most of the features, are

29:08

a bunch of stuff I didn't ask

29:10

for, and they're not fixing the things

29:13

that I really need done. So, you

29:15

know, and I think about the Siri

29:17

thing, and I posted something on Twitter

29:19

about this, but I was like, I

29:21

don't really care whether Siri has Apple

29:24

Intelligence, but what I do care about

29:26

is the fact that I'm on a

29:28

phone call. is not change the source.

29:30

Like literally, I've been on this call

29:32

for the last five minutes and I

29:35

just need you to be smart enough

29:37

to know that when I sit in

29:39

my car or I walk near another

29:41

Bluetooth device that I'm not going to

29:43

jump over to that because I don't

29:46

want to. And it is that kind

29:48

of stuff. You're like, go fix that

29:50

and don't worry about some of the

29:52

shiny. things. But Apple keeps on adding

29:54

more features and more things, and let's

29:56

do all these more, more, more, more,

29:59

more, more, more, because they're trying to

30:01

keep up. And this is what Apple

30:03

did. I feel like this is what

30:05

Apple did in the 90s. You know,

30:07

they were, you know, they didn't have

30:10

Steve Jobs there, and they went into

30:12

this whole thing, and now we have

30:14

these complicated skews on my phone. Never.

30:16

Ever, the only time I do it

30:18

is by accident. Is this just, I

30:21

mean, it may be that the whole

30:23

technology sector is going to hell and

30:25

Apple is, you know, just, you know,

30:27

like everybody else, because there isn't any

30:29

good competition for Apple. I'll acknowledge that.

30:32

But they really seem to be flailing.

30:34

They just fired or reassigned. John Gendrea,

30:36

who was a big acquisition from Google

30:38

to run. Right, didn't fire him. He's

30:40

in charge of their AI research, but

30:42

he's no longer in search of Syria.

30:45

They shuffled him. Mike Rockwell, who is

30:47

one of the fixers, is now in

30:49

charge of Syria reporting. He's now in

30:51

charge of Syria. He's now in charge

30:53

of Syria. She was like paving the

30:56

way for Rockwell, clearly, because she was

30:58

working for Rockwell before that was what

31:00

was going on there clearly. Here's the

31:02

thing Leo. It's complicated because Apple, I

31:04

would argue, on the hardware engineering side,

31:07

is at the top peak of that

31:09

scale. Apple Silicon is the best. Apple

31:11

Silicon, their Mac designs, the iPhone designs,

31:13

the iPad designs, their hardware group is

31:15

at the top right now. They are

31:18

killing it. Nobody's better. I agree. And

31:20

yet there is this other side and

31:22

and forgive me for going back to

31:24

the locker room but I'm going to

31:26

say John Madden classic phrase which was

31:28

winning is the greatest deodorant. And that's

31:31

part of what this issue is. Apple

31:33

has had for close observers of Apple,

31:35

there have been issues with Apple's software

31:37

process. that had been visible four years.

31:39

Not even like the last two years,

31:42

like the last 10 years, where they

31:44

seem to move people around from project

31:46

to project. They launch something with a

31:48

great PR push and then they abandon

31:50

it. And maybe a few years later

31:53

they go back and they fix it

31:55

again. There was a podcast I was

31:57

listening to a couple weeks ago where

31:59

an anonymous person wrote in and said,

32:01

oh, by the way, the only way

32:04

you can get your bug fixed. is

32:06

to get it fixed during the beta

32:08

process when the feature gets put in.

32:10

After that, if you find a bug

32:12

in Apple software, it just gets ignored.

32:15

And it's like, well, that's sort of

32:17

what it looks like from the outside.

32:19

So I guess that's a confirmation that

32:21

that's what it is from the inside.

32:23

And so this is the thing. When

32:25

you're number one, when you're doing great,

32:28

when you're making all the money, and

32:30

you're having all the success, it is

32:32

very hard, if not impossible, if not

32:34

impossible, if not impossible, if not impossible,

32:36

if not impossible, if not impossible, if

32:39

not impossible, if not impossible, impossible, if

32:41

not impossible, if not impossible, if not

32:43

impossible, if not impossible, if not impossible,

32:45

if not impossible, if not impossible, if

32:47

not impossible, if not impossible, if not

32:50

impossible, if not impossible, if not impossible,

32:52

if not impossible, if not impossible, if

32:54

not impossible, if not impossible, if not

32:56

impossible, if not impossible, if not impossible,

32:58

if not impossible, if because there's no

33:01

feedback that you have a problem in

33:03

terms of the things that people are

33:05

looking at like customer sat ratings and

33:07

sales and your stock price and all

33:09

those things. And then too, it's really

33:11

hard to tell people who are embedded

33:14

in this successful company, actually you're not

33:16

being successful because. And so a lot

33:18

of stuff just. great deodorant, it just

33:20

sits there and it really stinks, but

33:22

nobody can smell it. And I think

33:25

with the Apple Intelligence thing, because of

33:27

the added pressure of time that they

33:29

felt they needed to do Apple Intelligence

33:31

to get back out in front of

33:33

AI because they were caught flat-footed onLLMs,

33:36

that added a little more pressure to

33:38

their already kind of problematic rickety. culture

33:40

of software organization or I don't know

33:42

what it is something about their culture

33:44

and it broke it visibly publicly where

33:47

executives were making claims about what they

33:49

were going to do and they couldn't

33:51

do it and it looks really bad

33:53

for them, and they've had to do

33:55

some re-orgs. So my question is, was

33:57

this bad enough? Did this stink enough

34:00

for Apple to say, I know we're

34:02

riding high, but not like we used

34:04

to be, and we've got problems, and

34:06

we need to fix them? And is

34:08

moving Rockwell in there to be in

34:11

charge of Siri and working with Craig

34:13

Federegi? Is that enough to change the

34:15

culture, or are they rearranging deck chairs?

34:17

I don't think Apple is doomed, but

34:19

Apple for a while now has been

34:22

a company that is a company that

34:24

is that has been let down by

34:26

its software organization, even though its hardware

34:28

organization is great. And I don't think

34:30

anybody would debate how great Apple's hardware

34:33

is, but I remember back when Apple

34:35

software was great and their hardware was

34:37

kind of not that great. And they

34:39

have come all the way around because

34:41

hardware was kind of not that great.

34:43

And they have come all the way

34:46

around because they felt hardware was a

34:48

huge problem and they needed to fix

34:50

it. But they've let the software side

34:52

coast. And it's not, I mean, there's

34:54

something wrong. make substantive changes. My fear

34:57

is that they're all still too afraid

34:59

of going against the doctrine that was

35:01

put in by Steve Jobs in the

35:03

corporate culture in the early 2000s that

35:05

got them where they are and so

35:08

the argument's always going to be no

35:10

no we can't change because this is

35:12

why we got here even though the

35:14

world has totally changed and they're not

35:16

who they used to be. So that's

35:19

it's a real question. Is Tim Cook

35:21

the guy to fix this? I mean

35:23

he's an he's an operation I think

35:25

he could but as somebody who's been

35:27

a CEO for whatever 10 or 15

35:29

years and has been in this position

35:32

he's the guy who's not a change

35:34

agent right he's the guy who put

35:36

them there if you ask me yeah

35:38

yeah yeah and I you know I

35:40

think that the issue again is that

35:43

is that I think that Apple is

35:45

got caught up in what it's so

35:47

tempting because it's so visual that it's

35:49

like let's create new features this has

35:51

got this many new features and and

35:54

what they're forgetting is like part of

35:56

what made like the iPad the original

35:58

iPod magical was that wheel I don't

36:00

know how long they spent making that

36:02

wheel work, but man, when you grabbed

36:05

onto it, you felt like you were

36:07

dealing with something different. And what Apple

36:09

used to be good at is, I'm

36:11

going to make every little feature just

36:13

work perfectly, as opposed to I'm going

36:15

to add a bunch, just work perfectly,

36:18

as opposed to I'm going to add

36:20

a bunch of new things. And I'm

36:22

going to make every little feature, just

36:24

work perfectly, as opposed to an Android

36:26

I'd buy one. my notes work and

36:29

things connect and my earphones connect like if

36:31

all of those things as an Apple user and

36:33

I think Apple users are different than Android users

36:35

or Windows users I'm not looking for every

36:37

feature what I'm looking for is everything to work

36:39

well together and for it to all be smooth

36:42

and everything else I don't really care about every

36:44

little thing doing the heightened whatever because I want

36:46

it to be in the background like I have

36:48

other things I want to do in my life.

36:50

I just want this part not to be complicated

36:53

not to be complicated and when it gets complicated

36:55

you're like oh You know, like, why did you

36:57

add all these things that I don't need? You

36:59

know, and it would be great if they all

37:01

worked well, but they don't. You know,

37:04

like they're, I feel like

37:06

constantly on every platform I'm on,

37:08

things are quirky. You know, like

37:10

they're just, they're not quite working

37:12

correctly. But you see Apple kind

37:14

of lean into it. Like I

37:16

don't know whether, is it part of the

37:19

beta that the recipe, are the, have

37:21

you seen the recipes in news? This

37:23

is the thing that I haven't seen them

37:25

yet, but they have added recipes into. When

37:27

did they add it? Was it a long time?

37:29

No, no, no. I think it's part of

37:31

this beta process that they're doing now. They're

37:34

putting the recipes in. I was like, everybody's

37:36

in trouble. Like, like, you know, like, it's

37:38

really smooth. Like, you see a bunch of

37:40

new recipes. And you're just, but I think

37:42

that's what Apple does well is that you,

37:44

you start to see things like, like, oh,

37:47

You can easily tag recipes and I'm going

37:49

to put it in a pretty interface and

37:51

I'm going to you know break it all

37:53

down in there They're just going to slow

37:55

roll into that industry And I think that

37:57

that's where they they do well is to do is

37:59

to you know, make things that all work

38:02

well together. See, I disagree. I think

38:04

news is irreparably hampered by the fact

38:06

that you cannot share a link to

38:08

anybody except other news users. That's absurd,

38:10

and that's a very common problem at

38:13

Apple. Is this whole thing, oh, you

38:15

gotta stay in the ecosystem? I think

38:17

Apple is only surviving because nobody else

38:19

has provided any decent competition. It's a

38:21

sad reflection on the state of the

38:24

technology industry. I think that people make

38:26

a lot of decisions that are very

38:28

difficult to get over. Like Google really

38:30

wants everything to happen in the browser

38:33

and there's a whole bunch of limitations

38:35

to that. Yeah, they're all tampered by

38:37

their business model. Right. And so the

38:39

thing is is Google wants to do

38:41

that and Microsoft is really about how

38:44

do we sell to corporations? It's not

38:46

how do we sell to individuals? Zero

38:48

days every month. in its when I

38:50

open up I don't use teams the

38:52

the app on my phone I'm on

38:55

teams meetings a couple times a day

38:57

and I'm always joining from the browser

38:59

because when I open up the the

39:01

the app on the Mac it opens

39:03

up a big white screen that covers

39:06

everything else up that doesn't do anything

39:08

but it's been there for years yeah

39:10

like you know and it's like okay

39:12

you know you're just like okay you

39:15

know so it's an interesting situation I

39:17

don't, I just, I notice, you know,

39:19

because I, I ingest many, many articles

39:21

and I'm starting to notice, even among

39:23

the Apple Faithful, this kind of a

39:26

little bit of a turn. to unhappiness.

39:28

And I just I just wonder what's

39:30

what's going on. The money and they've

39:32

got the right people to make the

39:34

turn to come back. They got the

39:37

money. I don't know. They have the

39:39

right people. I think that's the real

39:41

problem is the executive team. It may

39:43

be because again, I think it goes

39:45

back to the whole great deodorant issue,

39:48

which is they've been there so long,

39:50

they've made so much money and they've

39:52

been successful doing it. We see this

39:54

with their approach to regulation to regulation

39:57

in places. like Europe too, where I

39:59

think that there's an argument to be

40:01

made that they could have been more

40:03

defensive in making policy changes that would

40:05

have gotten them off the hook from

40:08

a lot of regulation, but they were

40:10

going to do it by their playbook

40:12

and they were probably a little more

40:14

combative than they should have been. because

40:16

that was the way that they did

40:19

it. And you know, again, you've got

40:21

a bunch of people who've been in

40:23

those positions of authority for a lot

40:25

of years, and they've made a lot

40:27

of money. And so it's a real

40:30

question about whether they're going to be

40:32

interested in, not capable necessarily, but interested

40:34

in change. I will say this, though,

40:36

Leah, which is, yes, we are having

40:38

a moment now where there is a

40:41

real question about an aspect of what

40:43

Apple is doing. I'll just point out.

40:45

In the mid to late 2010s, the

40:47

mess was completely adrift. They messed up

40:50

all the ports and the keyboards on

40:52

all their laptops, which are three quarters

40:54

of the max they sell. So like,

40:56

I don't want to go and say,

40:58

Apple, oh, it's all downhill from here

41:01

because Apple messed something up and this

41:03

is the beginning of it because Apple's

41:05

hardware group, which we just said is.

41:07

on all cylinders right now, there was

41:09

a time not very long ago. Is

41:12

that who we give credit to for

41:14

that? No, because it's also it's also

41:16

the hardware engineers, right? It's not. Yeah,

41:18

they're really good. And maybe whoever they

41:20

hired. And maybe whoever told Johnny I

41:23

that it was time to leave. But

41:25

I mean, John Turner is one of

41:27

the key people in hardware and there's

41:29

been a discussion of him potentially being

41:32

the next CEO. What Apple did in

41:34

the late 2010s is fix it. And

41:36

the question now is, we can't tell

41:38

from the outside especially, but without the

41:40

benefit of time, whether making these moves

41:43

and some other invisible moves beneath the

41:45

surface, is them fixing it or rearranging

41:47

the deck chairs. We just can't tell.

41:49

Remember Mike Rockwell quit? Yeah, he sounds

41:51

like a really interesting guy. And he

41:54

shipped a vision pro, which say what

41:56

you will about the vision pro. I

41:58

actually think it's a great product. the

42:00

door that's by itself is good it's

42:02

too expensive and it's got lots of

42:05

weird design decisions on it but it's

42:07

good in the OS which he's still

42:09

in charge of is good and I

42:11

feel like they wanted to use Siri

42:14

to control it and he had the

42:16

good sense to say no no it's

42:18

worse than it's worse than it's worse

42:20

than that Leo he wanted to use

42:22

Siri to control it and he was

42:25

like we need to make Siri better

42:27

and was sort of told no and

42:29

he was sort of told no and

42:31

he was but I yeah I get

42:33

the sense that he's almost like what

42:36

Bob Mansfield was for hardware back in

42:38

the day which is a fixer someone

42:40

who knows how to ship products and

42:42

they need somebody like that over there

42:44

for a lot of this stuff right

42:47

now because they have been struggling I

42:49

should also say there are a lot

42:51

of really good talented people who work

42:53

on software at Apple and they got

42:56

they got handed a bit of an

42:58

unpleasant sandwich, I'm not going to say

43:00

what's in that sandwich, but spinal tap

43:02

knows, when they were told you've got

43:04

six months to implement a whole AI

43:07

strategy out of the blue because that

43:09

was they were, that was a, an

43:11

executive decision to not go down that

43:13

path and then an, oh no, go

43:15

down that path fast and like. They're

43:18

not built, we could argue that maybe

43:20

they should be built better to do

43:22

stuff like that, that they should be

43:24

more nimble, but they were put in

43:26

a really rough situation by the managers.

43:29

And that's why, that's the question here

43:31

is, is there going to be a

43:33

change in attitude and approach by management?

43:35

Because the rank and file will march

43:37

where they lead. And I would say,

43:40

because we have listeners who work at

43:42

Google and Microsoft, it's the same everywhere.

43:44

That the people on the ground are

43:46

often very good. Yeah, but they're often

43:49

not led by the best people. I

43:51

guess you could say that about governments

43:53

as well, right? I mean, the other

43:55

big advantage of Apple is that you

43:57

don't, the kind of infighting that's become

44:00

very public about how Google runs internally

44:02

and how Microsoft runs internally hasn't come

44:04

out in Apple, which means that either

44:06

A, they have a better way of,

44:08

a better culture of saying, okay, we're

44:11

going to argue until we make it.

44:13

decision and then we make a decision

44:15

we're all pulling together or they're much

44:17

better and intimidating people not to talk

44:19

to outside people but Google has had

44:22

a bunch of reports over the past

44:24

year about how like we the the

44:26

their their their Google assistant group Ordered

44:28

basically was upset that the pixel group

44:31

was introducing a voice assistant feature to

44:33

the pixel And so they had to

44:35

fight and daddy had to step in

44:37

and say okay guess what you don't

44:39

get to have that on the pixel

44:42

You shouldn't have done that this group

44:44

should have done it and then they

44:46

had to basically turn into an entire

44:48

different product That's not the sort of

44:50

thing that you're who knows if that

44:53

thing is happening inside Apple, but the

44:55

thing is I wouldn't expect that to

44:57

happen inside Apple so I think the

44:59

management structure is really really good, but

45:01

again that there There's some bits of

45:04

culture and dogma that could bear some

45:06

adjusting. We're going to take a break.

45:08

There is a lot of Apple News,

45:10

including a date for WWDC. We'll get

45:13

to that in just a bit. You're

45:15

watching Mac Break weekly. With Andy Anako,

45:17

Jason Snell, Alex Lindsay. I'm Leo Laport.

45:19

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47:25

when you go to that address I

47:27

know you could just go get the

47:30

app but if you go to the

47:32

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you saw it here zock.com/Macbreak and I

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can absolutely say I've used it many

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times now it's fantastic. W. D. D.

47:41

C. And we're interested to see how

47:43

Apple responds to all of this at

47:45

W. W. D. C. Oh man. about

47:47

yeah it's it's it's it's exactly when

47:49

you'd expect it which I those of

47:52

us in the Bay Area know it's

47:54

always the week of the last week

47:56

of school so if you're a parent

47:58

you've got your kids then so sorry

48:00

to all those Apple employees who are

48:03

gonna miss their kids final recitals or

48:05

whatever because it's June 9th through the

48:07

13th and it will be so the

48:09

keynote will be on the 9th they're

48:12

gonna invite you know they're gonna invite

48:14

developers I think it'll be interesting that

48:16

it might be a little less worldwide

48:18

worldwide worldwide this year given the year

48:20

given the various travel to the US

48:23

is difficult but it is going to

48:25

be entirely online says Apple as always

48:27

right it's it's they'll invite some people

48:29

to Apple Park but the truth is

48:31

anybody who talks about this as if

48:34

it was an in-person event in 99.9%

48:36

of it is an online event they

48:38

do a they do a little in-person

48:40

thing but it's not what the event

48:42

is it's mostly for the people on

48:45

the outside and it's going to be

48:47

for my money the most interesting WWDC

48:49

maybe I've ever seen because we all

48:51

we know is everything we've talked about

48:54

and then they're big announcements last year

48:56

about Apple intelligence so like what went

48:58

wrong what did they learn and what

49:00

we don't know is are they going

49:02

to lean deeper into Apple intelligence are

49:05

they going to back off are they

49:07

going to apologize are they going to

49:09

do something totally different are they going

49:11

to change their strategy to integrate more

49:13

third-party stuff? What do you want to

49:16

hear? I want to hear from them

49:18

to say We learned a lot in

49:20

the last year. We're gonna try to

49:22

give more tools to you, the developers,

49:24

so that you can leverage our models

49:27

or other models on our devices, because

49:29

our devices are great for running AI

49:31

models. We're gonna do more in our

49:33

private cloud compute. We are going to

49:35

improve the AI features that we've already

49:38

introduced and ship the ones that we

49:40

promised you. You know, that's kind of

49:42

what I'd like to see is I'd

49:44

like to see them back off a

49:47

little bit on. rolling out a whole

49:49

bunch of new AI features and say

49:51

we're gonna fulfill our promises and we're

49:53

gonna empower developers because that's the thing

49:55

that we talked about it at the

49:58

time, but just to remind you, like

50:00

for a developer conference, they announced almost

50:02

nothing that developers could actually use to

50:04

build their own apps. It was all

50:06

just OS stuff. And developers, it would

50:09

be, it would unlock the potential of

50:11

iOS apps and Mac apps so much,

50:13

especially iOS apps where there are a

50:15

lot of real resource issues. If Apple

50:17

said, hey, you know those image generation

50:20

and textual models that we have running

50:22

for our stuff on our device, you

50:24

can now, here's an API. Here's an

50:26

API. Here's an API. and you can

50:29

now write around those with your apps

50:31

and you can use the power of

50:33

of machine learning on our devices more

50:35

easily without having to build and bundle

50:37

your own model like the more kind

50:40

of extolling the virtues for developers of

50:42

how having this powerful device with all

50:44

of this great machine learning at their

50:46

beck and call could be really powerful

50:48

for them. So I think I think

50:51

bottom line would be an acceptance that

50:53

they've learned a lot in the last

50:55

year. and that they are here is

50:57

where they're they're headed in terms of

50:59

being kind of more careful and also

51:02

I would say integrating with partners I

51:04

think that I would like to see

51:06

them say yes Gemini is also going

51:08

to be integrated and Claude is also

51:11

going to be integrated and you can

51:13

choose which model you want to use

51:15

etc. I think that would that would

51:17

go a long way. Yeah 100% I

51:19

think that last year for reasons that

51:22

we've been discussing for the past couple

51:24

of weeks they had to lay out

51:26

what they intend to do about AI

51:28

this year for obvious reasons. I think

51:30

they need to underscore how they're going

51:33

to do it. That's going to be

51:35

more important that here is our plan,

51:37

here is the resources that we have

51:39

as brilliant what you said, like here's

51:41

what we have learned, and here's how

51:44

we're not going to just continue to

51:46

hammer at the same rock face. We're

51:48

going to look for we're not going

51:50

to try to walk through a wall

51:52

anymore. We're going to try to find

51:55

the door and then walk through that.

51:57

I hope that they make it more

51:59

important. As you say, they make it

52:01

clear that how... easy it's going to

52:04

be to embrace other models. I think

52:06

that they need to bite the bullet

52:08

and say that we are going to

52:10

consider Siri to be a competitor to

52:12

the Google assistant, a competitor to other

52:15

AI voice assistance, because if we don't,

52:17

we don't want the iPhone to be

52:19

the one machine that doesn't run Microsoft

52:21

office, for instance. Okay, we don't, if

52:23

this is what people want to actually

52:26

use, if people are getting to the

52:28

habit of using this tool, we want

52:30

to make sure that we're not artificially

52:32

making it too hard for these people

52:34

to use those assistance. But in addition

52:37

to AI, they also, we've had, we've

52:39

had stories from Mark German about, again,

52:41

the rewrite of iOS and MacOS. It

52:43

will be cool to see if they

52:46

decide to say, okay, we're going to

52:48

have to show you how this works

52:50

so that you can. be ready to

52:52

go as soon as we're released in

52:54

September. That's going to be really, really

52:57

vital to see. We're going to have

52:59

to see, we're going to hear a

53:01

lot about the cloud and servers. Another

53:03

new news item that just broke today

53:05

or yesterday is that they're making a

53:08

billion dollar year investment in invidia and

53:10

other AI hardware, another cloud hardware. So

53:12

to basically make the bet that, yeah,

53:14

whatever apps you choose to write that

53:16

leverage Apple technologies, we're going to be

53:19

able to host them, we're going to

53:21

be able to run them in our

53:23

secure enclaves. It's going to work just

53:25

great. They have a lot to do

53:28

this time. And not, it's kind of

53:30

hard to fit it all into an

53:32

hour, hour and a half. And the

53:34

last thing, they sure as hell have

53:36

to start showing some live on-state, live,

53:39

okay, it's not on stage anymore, but

53:41

live demos in which they captioned saying

53:43

that here is. Here is an alpha

53:45

or a prototype code of this Apple

53:47

intelligence feature actually working as opposed to

53:50

yeah, look how wonderful are we are

53:52

at final cut To make this thing

53:54

actually look like it's working. They have

53:56

a lot of they put it this

53:58

way. This is the first year long

54:01

time that I think that Apple is

54:03

entering WWDC on the back foot. They

54:05

have a lot to reassure people and

54:07

to show people as opposed to

54:10

showing them that yeah we're on

54:12

a great road. I'll wind up

54:14

by saying I'm not sure if

54:16

this will be a keynote which

54:19

we hear our customers love this

54:21

product and we're making it even

54:23

better in the next iOS. It's

54:26

going to be it's going

54:28

to be a thing man. Whether they

54:30

do much with Apple intelligence or AI

54:32

or or multiple models as it relates

54:34

to being directly tied into X code

54:36

You know because I think that that

54:39

has become such a you know a

54:41

thing You know and you know I've

54:43

developed more apps on my own I've

54:45

I've managed lots of teams to build apps

54:47

over the last two decades, but me sitting down on

54:49

a Saturday afternoon and deciding I want to build something

54:51

and having it working by that later that afternoon and

54:53

that's without the integration. That's me sitting there in Claude

54:55

or in chat gBT doing exactly what I'm doing exactly

54:57

doing there in chat gBT, doing exactly what I do,

55:00

doing exactly what I do, doing exactly what I do,

55:02

doing exactly what I do, doing exactly what I do,

55:04

doing exactly what I do, doing, doing exactly what I

55:06

do, doing exactly what I do, doing, doing exactly what,

55:08

doing, doing, doing, doing exactly what, doing, doing, doing, doing,

55:10

doing, doing, doing exactly what, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing,

55:12

doing, doing, doing, what, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing,

55:14

what, doing, doing, what, doing, doing, doing, what, doing, doing,

55:16

doing, what, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, what,

55:18

doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, what, doing, doing,

55:21

doing, doing, You know, one of the things

55:23

I had this conversation with the developer, they're

55:25

coming out with something new and they're writing

55:27

the manual for the AI, for AI. So the

55:29

manual is being, the way it's being

55:32

structured is they're writing one manual for

55:34

humans and one manual for machines so

55:36

that you can use that manual as

55:38

reference. So you can drop that into

55:41

your into your into your AI and

55:43

it will give it better information. in

55:45

the way that it expects it so

55:47

that it can write better code for

55:50

what they're doing. Like it was, then

55:52

I was just like, oh, that's, you

55:54

know, and so Apple starting to think

55:56

about how they define documentation, how

55:58

they, you know. work with AI, how

56:01

they tie that into X code, you

56:03

know, could, you know, greatly change. If

56:05

you start, when you start seeing developers

56:07

start to look and think that way,

56:09

you know, I think that that could

56:11

be an explosion of, you know, app

56:13

development as well. Now, people being able

56:15

to, there's a, there are millions and

56:17

millions of apps out there that are

56:19

an idea in someone's head, and they

56:22

just don't know how to make it,

56:24

and they don't know how to make

56:26

it, and they don't know how to

56:28

make it, and they don't know how

56:30

to make it, taking a working prototype

56:32

and handing it to a that you're

56:34

80% happy with and handing that to

56:36

a developer saying I don't expect you

56:38

to use any of this code or

56:40

any of these other things I just

56:42

this is what I wanted to do

56:45

or this is roughly what I'm trying

56:47

to get it done would revolutionize you

56:49

know software development. And that's a really

56:51

interesting thing I hadn't thought of before

56:53

like this is the keynote itself. as

56:55

we all know, for years and years

56:57

and years, it's been to a broad

56:59

audience. Developers, yes, but also analysts, reporters,

57:01

news people, and reports news people, and

57:03

also regular civilians. But as a developer

57:05

conference, what, how do they, it must

57:07

be interesting how they are going to

57:10

tread the line between how AI is

57:12

empowering developers to develop their best apps

57:14

more quickly and make sure the creative

57:16

stuff they spend make sure developers spend

57:18

most time other time on the creative

57:20

part of it as opposed to the

57:22

main just the you know slog laying

57:24

bricks of coding versus the other audience

57:26

for AI coding which is people like

57:28

you and me and people who are

57:30

not even necessarily tech people people who

57:33

want to have a conversation with a

57:35

chat bot and say I want an

57:37

app that can basically log events. I

57:39

just need a button that starts a

57:41

clock. I need three buttons, one that

57:43

adds to the log this kind of

57:45

event, the second kind of event, the

57:47

third. of it. I want this to

57:49

be saved as a spreadsheet and be

57:51

able to pop out that app without

57:53

doing a whole lot of coding. Will

57:56

Apple decide that we don't want X

57:58

code to be that user-friendly, not only

58:00

because it will compete with actual live

58:02

human developers, but also because it might

58:04

not be a good experience for the

58:06

consumers? want to put that kind of

58:08

stuff in shortcuts or the other like

58:10

consumer grade automation tools that they do?

58:12

Or are they going to go whole

58:14

hog and simply say we've created our

58:16

own version of Copilot that is an

58:18

expert not on programming in general but

58:21

on specifically X code specifically our APIs.

58:23

It is the easiest fastest way to

58:25

turn an idea into a functioning app

58:27

and we are going to turn millions

58:29

and millions of people from people with

58:31

good ideas for apps to people who

58:33

conceivably might have successfully successful commercial apps

58:35

on the app store. There must be

58:37

a lot of conversation about where they

58:39

want that butter zone to be. And

58:41

it could be something between shortcuts and

58:44

X code because like the stuff that

58:46

I'm building right now in AI, I

58:48

never expect to release because it's too...

58:50

Right. Me too. It is, but it's

58:52

kind of cool. It's an Andy app.

58:54

It's an Alice app. It's not a

58:56

general app, right? It's what I used

58:58

to use scripts for, right? What I

59:00

used to do, it does the thing

59:02

that I needed to do. It's like

59:04

having your own 3D printer. I'm not

59:07

selling the things that I'm printing. I'm

59:09

not selling the things that I'm printing,

59:11

right? I need to fix some little

59:13

thing to my rig or whatever. And

59:15

I can print that's kind of what

59:17

I need software to do. Shortcuts is

59:19

too simple and X code is oftentimes

59:21

just too laborious for me to do

59:23

what I'm trying to do is so

59:25

using AI or something like it and

59:27

and Apple could easily be structuring the

59:29

documentation not easily I don't want to

59:32

say easy and some Apple could structure

59:34

the documentation for AI and then develop

59:36

it either with their own AI or

59:38

with, you know, some other, you know,

59:40

service, allow people to be writing code

59:42

and have it tied directly into X

59:44

code where it can see it. does

59:46

it, you're simply asking questions and having

59:48

it produce that. And again, I don't

59:50

need it, I don't ever need to

59:52

release that software. It's me gluing things

59:55

together. When you see this in this

59:57

sensor, I'm gonna get the sensor, whatever

59:59

it is, put it out there. When

1:00:01

I see that sensor, whatever it is,

1:00:03

put it out there, when I see

1:00:05

that sensor, do this thing, I want

1:00:07

you to do this thing, I want

1:00:09

you to do this thing, it's the

1:00:11

same as automated or shortcuts. Love notal

1:00:13

compositing love notable things and I've never

1:00:15

found I never I use Automator I've

1:00:18

never found Automator or and I love

1:00:20

Sal I mean the only reason I

1:00:22

know any part about automators because of

1:00:24

Sal But it was never both it

1:00:26

and shortcuts has never worked the way

1:00:28

my brain works And so I I

1:00:30

fiddle with them and I build shortcuts

1:00:32

and I build stuff with them, but

1:00:34

it's always like oh, how do I

1:00:36

you know, and I? Just wish I

1:00:38

had a notal programming interface. You've all

1:00:40

seen this article by Steve Iris, right?

1:00:43

I'm sorry, Brian Iris. He's a software

1:00:45

developer, works as Stripe. He worked on

1:00:47

the Tumblr, iOS app and so forth.

1:00:49

Tim, don't kill my vibe. What he's

1:00:51

talking about is this so-called vibe. I'm

1:00:53

coding. Coding, which I'm a little skeptical

1:00:55

of, but the idea is instead of

1:00:57

writing code, you write a prompt, you

1:00:59

give it the vibe of what you're

1:01:01

going to write, and then it'll write

1:01:03

it for you. But his point, which

1:01:06

I think is good, is that despite

1:01:08

the fact, you know, whatever you think

1:01:10

about vibe coding, Apple just has not

1:01:12

developed the tools, aside from this one

1:01:14

X code plug-in, like cursor or Repolate

1:01:16

or V0. to do this and this

1:01:18

is what people want and you know

1:01:20

you're going to lose a generation of

1:01:22

developers. That's yes. Right? And it's more

1:01:24

than that too. It's also that these

1:01:26

things these walls that Apple has erected

1:01:29

that they did in the days of

1:01:31

the early days of the app store

1:01:33

and when it was not when they

1:01:35

weren't walls I mean honestly when those

1:01:37

walls were just assumed. It's like, well,

1:01:39

you need X code, and then you're

1:01:41

gonna need to submit, and we've come

1:01:43

up with a process and all of

1:01:45

that. And in that era, those things

1:01:47

were not insurmountable barriers, right? And this

1:01:49

is, and this is, I think, a

1:01:51

great point, which is when you go

1:01:54

by the old rules and you just

1:01:56

assume they're fine, you miss changes like

1:01:58

this, which is what his blog post

1:02:00

said to me was, a lot of

1:02:02

young. developers view this development as like

1:02:04

quick iteration and they're using, you know,

1:02:06

CGI, you're a CGI, yeah, they are,

1:02:08

it's all a CGI, don't believe it.

1:02:10

It's a, it's a, and they cut,

1:02:12

it's a, and they cut, it's a,

1:02:14

they're using, LLLMs, they're using other AI

1:02:17

code completion tech to build software really

1:02:19

rapidly and then turn it around and

1:02:21

they want to run it and see

1:02:23

how it runs, and a lot of

1:02:25

those normal classic systems that Apple built

1:02:27

that Apple built that were not meant

1:02:29

to be an impediment to be an

1:02:31

impediment to be an impediment to the

1:02:33

next generation, but since they haven't really

1:02:35

been revised, are now an enormous impediment

1:02:37

to the next generation. And his point

1:02:40

is kind of like, Apple needs to

1:02:42

see the writing on the wall here

1:02:44

and, you know, they don't need to

1:02:46

tear all the walls down, but they

1:02:48

need to find a pathway so that

1:02:50

this generation of people who want to

1:02:52

build things doesn't feel like they just

1:02:54

can't build them on Apple platforms. And

1:02:56

I think it's a great point. Here's

1:02:58

the ex post from Theo of some.

1:03:00

Weird chat platform, but but a legit

1:03:02

post He says I legit think Apple's

1:03:05

risking it all now creating apps has

1:03:07

never been easier releasing the app is

1:03:09

harder than making it If they don't

1:03:11

reduce the friction they will lose Yeah,

1:03:13

it's really interesting I mean we can

1:03:15

talk about App Store policy and like

1:03:17

do you want to get approval and

1:03:19

all of that? But this is this

1:03:21

is like it's just very hard to

1:03:23

go through layers and layers of what

1:03:25

is now essentially Apple bureaucracy. And if

1:03:28

you were somebody who was a veteran

1:03:30

developer, you know about the code signing

1:03:32

and where you need to go and

1:03:34

X code and all of that. But

1:03:36

there's another generation of people who are

1:03:38

like, if you're going to make me

1:03:40

do that, I'm just not going to

1:03:42

bother. And so like, how do you?

1:03:44

reach them and how do you change

1:03:46

your approach in order to make it

1:03:48

less friction and again I've also heard

1:03:51

that it's not just about getting it

1:03:53

in the app store it's like getting

1:03:55

it on devices to to play with

1:03:57

that is even complicated. I raise rights.

1:03:59

I recently built a small iOS app

1:04:01

for myself. I can install it on

1:04:03

my iPhone directly from X code, but

1:04:05

it expires after seven days because I'm

1:04:07

using a free Apple developer account. I'm

1:04:09

not trying to avoid paying Apple, but

1:04:11

there's enough friction involved in switching to

1:04:13

a paid account. I simply haven't been

1:04:16

bothered, and I used to wrangle provisioning

1:04:18

profiles for a living. I can't imagine

1:04:20

that I'm alone here that others with

1:04:22

less tribal iOS development knowledge. Remember, he

1:04:24

wrote. the Tumblr app for iOS are

1:04:26

going to have a higher tolerance for

1:04:28

this. A friend asked me to send

1:04:30

the app to them. But that involved

1:04:32

creating a test flight group, submitting a

1:04:34

build to Apple, waiting for them to

1:04:36

approve it, and so on, compare this

1:04:39

to simply pushing a cloud fair or

1:04:41

let Netlify and automatically having a URL

1:04:43

you could send to a friend to

1:04:45

share via Twitter, or using codes like

1:04:47

V0, or Replet, we're hosting distribution, or

1:04:49

already baked in. There is a new

1:04:51

world of development. It's very different from

1:04:53

the old way of Apple development. Yeah,

1:04:55

and if you don't know the right

1:04:57

incantations, it can be extremely difficult to

1:04:59

get into this. be clear there are

1:05:02

also a lot of people out there

1:05:04

who don't have Max who want to

1:05:06

develop for Apple's platforms for the iPhone

1:05:08

and the only you can't I mean

1:05:10

basically you can't and I would say

1:05:12

I talked a while ago to a

1:05:14

developer of an extremely popular chrome extension

1:05:16

when Apple did their big thing where

1:05:18

they said we're gonna support this new

1:05:20

standard for extensions browser extensions that will

1:05:22

make it much easier for people to

1:05:24

bring chrome and Firefox extensions to safari.

1:05:27

And I talked to this developer and

1:05:29

I said what do you think and

1:05:31

he said running in safari would be

1:05:33

really great. But to do this, it's

1:05:35

not just a matter of making my

1:05:37

code compliant with this API, which is

1:05:39

fine. He said, I have to buy

1:05:41

a Mac, I have to get a

1:05:43

developer account, I have to learn how

1:05:45

to submit a browser extension using Apple.

1:05:47

And he said, it's not worth it

1:05:50

to me. I'm doing this on my

1:05:52

own time for fun, and I'm not

1:05:54

going to invest all of that. And

1:05:56

you know what, the safari is poorer

1:05:58

because that developer and a lot of

1:06:00

people like him aren't going to be

1:06:02

bothered for a browser extension. And it's

1:06:04

just, it's a really good example that

1:06:06

what seemed like traditional developers would say,

1:06:08

are not barriers, have become barriers. Well,

1:06:10

and I think that what's interesting is

1:06:12

that the coding part was 90% of

1:06:15

the work. And then there was all

1:06:17

this other weird stuff that you had

1:06:19

to do. Now the coding part suddenly

1:06:21

got squished in a small amount and

1:06:23

the other ones look really big because

1:06:25

they were really small before because you

1:06:27

were spending all this time writing this

1:06:29

code. But again, I'll sit down and

1:06:31

write Hunt, you know, the last one

1:06:33

I built thousands of lines of code

1:06:35

to do something that I didn't realize

1:06:38

I built so much. And I did

1:06:40

it in like two or three hours.

1:06:42

That would have taken me a month

1:06:44

to write, you know, and to figure

1:06:46

out to figure out. And so, and

1:06:48

to figure out. That's been compressed and

1:06:50

now you're right what I've learned a

1:06:52

lot more about because I didn't have

1:06:54

to do it by myself before Was

1:06:56

all the signing and all the other

1:06:58

bits and pieces because it was always

1:07:01

someone else developing it because I couldn't

1:07:03

do the code part So I didn't

1:07:05

get to the signing part and so

1:07:07

so I think that that is I

1:07:09

do think that it's a little bit

1:07:11

of an impediment, but I will say

1:07:13

I know more about app development than

1:07:15

I did before because I was the

1:07:17

coding part was taking so long I

1:07:19

wasn't really bothering with the other parts

1:07:21

and so and I was always just

1:07:23

hiring a team to do it and

1:07:26

so I give credit to Frederico Viteach

1:07:28

you brought this article to my attention

1:07:30

at Max stories he says that it

1:07:32

reminds him a little bit of the

1:07:34

early days of blogging if you wanted

1:07:36

to Do a blog 30 years ago,

1:07:38

you had to know a little bit

1:07:40

about hosting, and I know, because I've

1:07:42

done an HDML. Then Blogger came along

1:07:44

and allowed anyone, regardless of their skill

1:07:46

level, to be read. What if the

1:07:49

same happened to mobile software? Should Apple

1:07:51

and Google be ready for this possibility

1:07:53

within the next few years? Apple never

1:07:55

will, because of security, right? They're going

1:07:57

to say, no, we don't want to

1:07:59

make this too easy. Yeah. Also, the

1:08:01

quality of apps that are created by

1:08:03

people who only know how to use

1:08:05

coding assistance is not going to be

1:08:07

as good as what can be created

1:08:09

by people who use it as an

1:08:12

assistant and not as a replacement for

1:08:14

developer. And this is why I think

1:08:16

that if Apple were to create its

1:08:18

own bespoke AI for coding for coding

1:08:20

Mac apps, that would be really, really,

1:08:22

very interesting. I think the interesting puzzle

1:08:24

is that we see that happen over

1:08:26

and over and over again, which is.

1:08:28

When I started learning Photoshop I was

1:08:30

getting paid $3.75 an hour and I

1:08:32

and I was competing with guys that

1:08:34

had Cytext and they went to school

1:08:37

and they had an apprenticeship and everything

1:08:39

else and I was some kid who

1:08:41

worked in promotions right and so and

1:08:43

so the thing is is that and

1:08:45

I made horrible mistakes. I once printed

1:08:47

a square of black because I didn't

1:08:49

understand what dot gain was in a

1:08:51

newspaper in New Mexico, you know, because

1:08:53

I just didn't know what I was

1:08:55

doing and and the thing is is

1:08:57

that but and then we had that

1:09:00

era of Ray gun and we have

1:09:02

all this like Ray gun wasn't for

1:09:04

those of you who aren't old enough

1:09:06

to remember Ray gun. It was a

1:09:08

magazine that looked really cool that you

1:09:10

couldn't read. But it was, but you

1:09:12

could buy it at Barnes and Noble,

1:09:14

you know, and so, and so the,

1:09:16

so we had, you know, so the

1:09:18

thing is, is we went through that,

1:09:20

and when you look at YouTube, a

1:09:23

lot of us that do production, we're

1:09:25

like, wow, it's a bunch of kids

1:09:27

who don't know what they're doing, and

1:09:29

there's all this bad, bad content, like,

1:09:31

you know, and so it is, part

1:09:33

of it is getting caught up in

1:09:35

the, the old machinery. that holds that

1:09:37

does better work, to be honest. I

1:09:39

mean, I still think that most of

1:09:41

the guys that I work with do

1:09:43

cleaner and better video work than the

1:09:45

YouTubeers that I work with. You know,

1:09:48

we understand pixels and the things and

1:09:50

everything else, but I watch what Justine

1:09:52

Ezra does with her iPhone and it's

1:09:54

very adventurous and tells a great story

1:09:56

and gets past whatever that was. And

1:09:58

then, of course, what happens is they

1:10:00

built. all this up and then you

1:10:02

end up in this whole other place

1:10:04

where they're now bigger cameras and better

1:10:06

quality and more interesting than what we

1:10:08

had in the old days of broadcast.

1:10:11

I mean I feel like I mean

1:10:13

we were talking about streaming before the

1:10:15

what you mentioned Andy that and I

1:10:17

think we've all mentioned at some point

1:10:19

is that you know like I would

1:10:21

say 80% of my viewing right now

1:10:23

is YouTube. You know like 80% of

1:10:25

what I watch every day is on

1:10:27

YouTube it. traditional broadcast or even the

1:10:29

streamers. I watch because there's this incredibly

1:10:31

rich and then in addition to that

1:10:34

incredibly rich content, there is this ecosystem.

1:10:36

If you look at what DGI and

1:10:38

all these other folks are building, there's

1:10:40

this huge ecosystem that supports that group

1:10:42

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Just add a scoop of roughgreens. Yeah,

1:11:38

but I think you come up something

1:11:40

that's very, very, very, very relevant. understand

1:11:42

that there is nothing more powerful than

1:11:45

when your reaction to having done something

1:11:47

for the first time is, wow, that

1:11:49

was terrible. I can't wait to do

1:11:51

it again. That means that it really

1:11:53

has triggered you into, I don't care

1:11:55

how long it's going to take me

1:11:57

to learn how to do this. I'm

1:11:59

engaged, I'm involved in this. This really,

1:12:01

really, you play the piano. So that's,

1:12:03

well, but what, what I'm getting that

1:12:05

is that one of the reasons why

1:12:07

YouTube has become such a great incubator

1:12:10

for great storytellers is because There's no

1:12:12

barrier to entry. Basically, you can put

1:12:14

it up because you decided you wanted

1:12:16

to put this up. And as you

1:12:18

keep going and going and going and

1:12:20

getting better and better and better, that

1:12:22

becomes evident. People don't have to see

1:12:24

the first terrible hundred videos you put

1:12:26

in there. You're learning along the way

1:12:28

and you're so excited that you really

1:12:30

really want to keep doing this and

1:12:33

learning more and trying to get better.

1:12:35

Now imagine if there were like an

1:12:37

app store sort of interface to that

1:12:39

where. First, I can't just simply click

1:12:41

a button and it transcodes and it's

1:12:43

available. I have to submit it. And

1:12:45

there's a bureaucracy for having done so

1:12:47

and I have to make sure it's

1:12:49

in the certain incantations I've been done.

1:12:51

And then a panel has to decide

1:12:53

whether it is worthy of inclusion. Is

1:12:56

it unique? Is it a high quality

1:12:58

thing or am I going to reject

1:13:00

it? I'm not going to try to

1:13:02

submit a second or third video that

1:13:04

way. this is something that I think

1:13:06

is going to affect app development when

1:13:08

there's a difference between the ability to

1:13:10

simply say, yes, there's an app store,

1:13:12

but there's also a side loader. So

1:13:14

if you want to, like first on

1:13:16

the play date, my favorite gaming platform,

1:13:18

if you want to go through the

1:13:21

panic play date store, you can do

1:13:23

so. Or you can just sell it

1:13:25

directly as a side loadable app and

1:13:27

the side loading is very, very easy

1:13:29

to do. Imagine that. a game platform

1:13:31

where every single thing has to be

1:13:33

vetted and has to be discussed and

1:13:35

has to be gone through. Here's the

1:13:37

10-point quality plan that has to go

1:13:39

through. That's how you make you have

1:13:41

to tap into people who are very

1:13:44

very self motivated to try to make

1:13:46

your platform awesome just because they think

1:13:48

it's awesome and they want to keep

1:13:50

nurturing it. So what I'm getting at

1:13:52

is that a lot of these co-pilot

1:13:54

systems are going to give people that

1:13:56

ability to create great Python, to create

1:13:58

great individual apps. But if they hit

1:14:00

a brick wall of letting other people

1:14:02

see those apps because it has to

1:14:04

go through an app store versus, well,

1:14:07

or I can just simply ask the

1:14:09

AI, can you convert this to a

1:14:11

rust app? And I'll just post it

1:14:13

as a web app. that is going

1:14:15

to affect the quality of apps that

1:14:17

are available both to the Apple store

1:14:19

and to the Google store. It is

1:14:21

the way of technology, isn't it? I

1:14:23

mean, you could say YouTube is to

1:14:25

video what Blogger was to the written

1:14:27

word. And next is coding. Vibe coding,

1:14:29

if you will. I'm very interested in

1:14:32

what's going to happen. I don't think

1:14:34

Apple's well positioned. in this at all.

1:14:36

I think they could be though. I

1:14:38

mean, I think that there's, I think,

1:14:40

maybe with web apps, you know, maybe

1:14:42

that's what Apple's thinking as well. We're

1:14:44

going to support web apps, right? I

1:14:46

mean, I still think that it's, I

1:14:48

mean, it is, for me to publish

1:14:50

something that someone else could use on

1:14:52

my phone meant I had to spend

1:14:55

an extra three hours sitting there with

1:14:57

chat, I was like, okay, I know,

1:14:59

I know. have that in my quiver

1:15:01

of I know how to do that

1:15:03

and it wasn't that big of a

1:15:05

deal I guess I would say that

1:15:07

that the I do think the web

1:15:09

is available for us right now to

1:15:11

do things that if you want to

1:15:13

do them and they don't require the

1:15:15

performance of a the big thing is

1:15:18

does do they require a performance of

1:15:20

the phone or not like you can

1:15:22

build a lot of things that just

1:15:24

work on the web I mean I

1:15:26

build a lot of things that are

1:15:28

just really good web experiences but as

1:15:30

soon as I want them to use

1:15:32

audio and video or 3D and be

1:15:34

and be performance then I immediately go

1:15:36

well I have to build something on

1:15:38

the I have to build something to

1:15:40

the to the hardware yeah and I

1:15:43

think that again I think about again

1:15:45

thinking about talking to this developer about

1:15:47

developing manuals for the AI, I think

1:15:49

Apple really going down this path of,

1:15:51

we're gonna build a whole bunch of

1:15:53

documentation for everything that we do that's

1:15:55

designed so that AI can use X

1:15:57

code more effectively, I think would be

1:15:59

a huge jump. That being able to,

1:16:01

and having a package that you can

1:16:03

download as a developer and just load

1:16:06

it into Claude and just go, we're

1:16:08

gonna give you this thing that's all

1:16:10

done, and you can just load it

1:16:12

into something, whether it's our own stuff

1:16:14

or whatever, and then we're gonna help

1:16:16

you code those things. At this year,

1:16:18

WWC doesn't cook the whole turkey, but

1:16:20

at this WWC, it would be a

1:16:22

lot. That would be a huge explosion

1:16:24

of giving people an opportunity to, you

1:16:26

know, be part of that, you know,

1:16:29

like to be part of developing things.

1:16:31

And again, I... I'm mostly just working

1:16:33

on ideas or clumping something together to

1:16:35

fix something else to make it work

1:16:37

or experimenting with an idea before I

1:16:39

talk to the programmer about it. So

1:16:41

before I ask the programmer to spend

1:16:43

three weeks working on something, I'll sit

1:16:45

there and play with the idea and

1:16:47

go, well, does that actually work and

1:16:49

does that actually work and does that

1:16:51

actually work? Because what I don't want

1:16:54

to do is ask for something and

1:16:56

then have them code out a bunch

1:16:58

of stuff that's like going to... school

1:17:00

for computer science, where just had audiences

1:17:02

of one. Before WordPress, I wrote my

1:17:04

own CMS, and it was basically every

1:17:06

feature I wanted, I put into it,

1:17:08

and every time the technology changes, I

1:17:10

changed the code to make it work.

1:17:12

By the time WordPress came along, it

1:17:14

was really very sophisticated. Also, an app

1:17:17

for a friend of mine who after

1:17:19

surgery lost his voice and wanted a

1:17:21

bespoke app for his own personal needs

1:17:23

to be able to still speak to

1:17:25

friends but also to give public appearances

1:17:27

and I think there's a lot of

1:17:29

people who are in that sort of

1:17:31

situation where I don't necessarily want to

1:17:33

be a professional developer but there's this

1:17:35

one app that I can't find the

1:17:37

I can't find something that does this

1:17:40

there should be something that it does

1:17:42

this I want there to be something

1:17:44

that does this. And I'm willing to

1:17:46

create this just for myself. You're very

1:17:48

humble, Andy. You're very humble. If you're,

1:17:50

if the one audience of one for

1:17:52

your app is Roger Ebert, that's pretty

1:17:54

damn cool. Oh, yeah. I didn't know

1:17:56

you did that. That's really awesome. Yeah,

1:17:58

he was, yeah, it was, it was

1:18:00

a way to help out and also

1:18:02

he was, he was, he was, such

1:18:05

a great tech guy. that like you

1:18:07

could always explain well I really want

1:18:09

to could you do a shortcut button

1:18:11

for this and I also want to

1:18:13

be able to and so it was

1:18:15

great like every day like in addition

1:18:17

to our regular emails it would be

1:18:19

and I'd be able to post back

1:18:21

to him okay here's a new here's

1:18:23

an alpha dot one point four four

1:18:25

one or whatever and so that was

1:18:28

fun but like a cyber came was

1:18:30

was writing a dial a song where

1:18:32

they might be giants but that's you

1:18:34

know that's good you beat that one

1:18:36

If you code old school, you look

1:18:38

at this, I do a scan and

1:18:40

go, that's not coding. But, um, and

1:18:42

it's just tanking. Again, if you're a

1:18:44

Sytext operator, you looked at Photoshop and

1:18:46

said that. Exactly, exactly. And if you

1:18:48

were a video producer when YouTube came

1:18:50

out, and you would look at that

1:18:53

and go, that's not like, that's disgusting.

1:18:55

And each one of the podcasting is

1:18:57

not radio, you know, you know, so

1:18:59

all of these things are the, to

1:19:01

me, to me, it just feels like

1:19:03

it just feels like it's the, it's

1:19:05

the, it's the, it's, it's, it's, it's,

1:19:07

it's, it's, it's, it's, um, um, um,

1:19:09

um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

1:19:11

um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

1:19:13

um, um, um, um, um, um, same

1:19:16

thing, same thing, same thing, same thing,

1:19:18

same thing, same thing We're going to

1:19:20

have on, of course, is one of

1:19:22

the things we covered in Intelligent Machines,

1:19:24

our new show, on Wednesdays replacing this

1:19:26

week in Google. Well, it is this

1:19:28

week in Google, but we just changed

1:19:30

the name. But we do a lot

1:19:32

more AI. One of our guests coming

1:19:34

up in the next couple of weeks

1:19:36

is Harper Reed, you may know, who's

1:19:39

a coder who wrote a very, I

1:19:41

thought a fascinating blog post about how

1:19:43

he does partner coding, and let the

1:19:45

AI code it. I think that that

1:19:47

that that, at least for now is

1:19:49

not ideal. But partner coding, a lot

1:19:51

of people are doing. And that's what

1:19:53

cursor AI does. And I think that's

1:19:55

probably, you know, something Apple has got

1:19:57

to support. You've used the X code

1:19:59

AI. plug-in, right, Alex? Is it? I

1:20:02

haven't, actually. Oh, you have. No, I just do

1:20:04

it straight out of either clutter check.

1:20:06

Is it just auto-compliant? I mean, we've

1:20:08

had a telesense for ages and ages.

1:20:10

E-Max does it for crying out loud.

1:20:12

I'd be very curious what Apple has

1:20:14

planned for AI and coding. But I think

1:20:16

that's the thing, but making that a

1:20:18

lot easier just opens up the door,

1:20:20

just opens up the door, because, again,

1:20:22

I think that... I think as if

1:20:25

you're actually developing software that you want

1:20:27

to release to the app store, you're

1:20:29

going to hit a wall at about

1:20:31

80% of the development, 90% of the

1:20:33

development, that, hey, if you really want

1:20:35

this to work and not get a

1:20:37

bunch of one stars, you're going to

1:20:39

need to really understand the code, or

1:20:41

you're going to need to hire someone

1:20:44

to understand the code. Well, that's the

1:20:46

problem if you do vibe coding. There

1:20:48

are things that can't do. You can

1:20:50

keep asking and it just keeps rearranging

1:20:52

those deck chairs again, but it doesn't

1:20:54

actually solve the problem because you've you've

1:20:57

reached the end and sometimes you have

1:20:59

to go back and revert or sometimes

1:21:01

you start again. And I love it.

1:21:03

I've used it for all sorts of

1:21:05

things, but like it is not a

1:21:07

one and done, your problem is solved.

1:21:09

There's work you have to put in

1:21:12

to get it to work right. That

1:21:14

may change. That may change over the

1:21:16

years. But again. I asked you to do

1:21:18

something very simple. I know where I want to

1:21:20

get to, but I don't write a prompt that

1:21:22

gets me there. I write, I need you to

1:21:25

do this, now I need to add this button,

1:21:27

now I need to add this, now I need

1:21:29

to add this, and I go and I build

1:21:31

it all up. Now, again, there are a hundred

1:21:33

dead ends that I would have. plowed a coder

1:21:36

into the ground with of like, oh, that button

1:21:38

doesn't work there, or this isn't working, or I

1:21:40

need it to do this quite, and I can

1:21:42

go do all of that really, really fast, so

1:21:44

that when I hand it to somebody, I'm like,

1:21:47

this is 80% of what I like,

1:21:49

this is what's missing, this is what's

1:21:51

broken. That is 10 times faster for

1:21:53

an advanced coder to just look at

1:21:55

what I did. They don't have to

1:21:57

look at any of the result of

1:21:59

it. advanced figma. In fact, what I'd

1:22:01

love to do is be able to

1:22:04

take figma and just import into AI,

1:22:06

which would spit something out that was

1:22:08

close. Again, I still think that you

1:22:10

need someone to come in and clean

1:22:12

it up and may not clean it

1:22:15

up, maybe rewrite it from scratch. man

1:22:17

the the amount of meetings that I

1:22:19

have you know to build a piece

1:22:21

of software to try to explain what

1:22:24

I wanted when I could just sit

1:22:26

down for a Saturday afternoon and build

1:22:28

what I wanted and then be able

1:22:30

to say okay this is what it

1:22:32

should look like or this is how

1:22:35

I want it or this is how

1:22:37

I want it or this is how

1:22:39

I want it to feel and these

1:22:41

are all the things that are missing

1:22:44

I mean it's just a night and

1:22:46

day on how long it will take

1:22:48

an advanced people who can write you

1:22:50

know bulletproof code but how do you

1:22:52

get to become an advanced code or

1:22:55

if you don't yeah well that was

1:22:57

a question that broadcasters asked when we

1:22:59

saw these YouTubeers pop it up it's

1:23:01

like well they're never gonna learn the

1:23:03

real thing and they never did like

1:23:06

what's funny is that they never did

1:23:08

they never did I mean they've gotten

1:23:10

a lot better and in some ways

1:23:12

they've done a lot of things that

1:23:15

I think they've invented a new language

1:23:17

it's different and it's you know for

1:23:19

instance my son used to he took

1:23:21

broadcast journalism at see you Boulder, that

1:23:23

was his major. And he used to

1:23:26

mock these old teachers who were teaching

1:23:28

him AB cutting. He said, I'm never

1:23:30

going to do that. And like they,

1:23:32

you know, the thing is that there's

1:23:35

like a culture on YouTube of, you

1:23:37

know, in this show, all of us

1:23:39

are sitting in front of microphones talking

1:23:41

into the mics. You don't see that

1:23:43

on broadcast television and let's face it,

1:23:46

labs stink. They're just horrible devices that

1:23:48

we use because we don't want to

1:23:50

look bad or whatever, but the culture

1:23:52

has become, I'm going to show you

1:23:54

the mic, I'm going to put the

1:23:57

mic where it needs to be to

1:23:59

be the best highest quality, and that's

1:24:01

an entirely different paradigm than what we

1:24:03

had in broadcast that was. Holding back

1:24:06

quality if anything. Yeah, it's always the

1:24:08

you don't see this quite as much

1:24:10

as you used to but you could

1:24:12

always tell the difference between Someone who

1:24:14

just came to you from television or

1:24:17

movies or because they heard that YouTube

1:24:19

is a great place to do like

1:24:21

video but you don't need a network

1:24:23

you don't need a broadcaster and the

1:24:26

people who came to it naturally who

1:24:28

basically learned how to create YouTube videos

1:24:30

there's like you would see these shows

1:24:32

I'm sure you can come up with

1:24:34

like lots of examples I'm thinking of

1:24:37

one specifically whom I won't name but

1:24:39

it's like wow you built an entire

1:24:41

like set that you don't need and

1:24:43

you created all of these host and

1:24:45

guest segments that get in the way

1:24:48

and you overscripted everything that makes it

1:24:50

seem stilted in this little window versus

1:24:52

all you needed to do was clean

1:24:54

your office or your living room and

1:24:57

talk into the camera and know how

1:24:59

to tell a story and it's like

1:25:01

you could say and this is why

1:25:03

this is why like old people are

1:25:05

terrified of young people because like learning

1:25:08

YouTube is oh I'm going to add

1:25:10

this to my bag of tricks and

1:25:12

basically you can't start from scratch and

1:25:14

understand what makes it you can't natively

1:25:17

understand what makes this unique and why

1:25:19

it's great like Photoshop is something that

1:25:21

oh I've been I've been doing photography

1:25:23

I'm doing image prepess and whatever for

1:25:25

years and years and years now I

1:25:28

suppose I'll add this to my bag

1:25:30

of tricks as opposed to someone who

1:25:32

grew up like the first time they

1:25:34

edited was in Photoshop and they're 14

1:25:36

years old. They're using a pirated copy

1:25:39

and as soon as they come home

1:25:41

from school every single day, all they

1:25:43

want to do is spend six hours

1:25:45

learning more Photoshop. Whereas you took a

1:25:48

weekend seminar and still don't think it's

1:25:50

very good. This is why you're going

1:25:52

to get your butt handed to you

1:25:54

by that 14 or 15 year old

1:25:56

kid. Well, and you know, it's never

1:25:59

been easier for all of these tools.

1:26:01

My son is learning resolve right now

1:26:03

and actually. for time lapse that I

1:26:05

don't know anybody else I don't know

1:26:08

if I'm the only one that does

1:26:10

it but I add motion blur back

1:26:12

from video and it's this whole process

1:26:14

to it and it's a little tricky

1:26:16

to do it like it's not something

1:26:19

that would be obvious but it's using

1:26:21

plugins from like when after effects was

1:26:23

COSA. You know, and no one else

1:26:25

uses that plug-in. So I show my

1:26:27

son how to do it. I show

1:26:30

him how to build the source document

1:26:32

in motion and then how to bring

1:26:34

it into after effects and then everything

1:26:36

else. And that took me a long

1:26:39

time to figure out. And within. three

1:26:41

hours he was doing it better than

1:26:43

I was like he was just he

1:26:45

was like it was like it was

1:26:47

like one of those like when you

1:26:50

wake up like when you're not caught

1:26:52

up in all the other stuff that

1:26:54

you have to do he just sat

1:26:56

there and played with it and and

1:26:59

and I realized that that fluidness of

1:27:01

not knowing what it can and can't

1:27:03

do because I had a bunch of

1:27:05

rules about how you have to do

1:27:07

that mathematically to make that work and

1:27:10

he didn't have that. limitation and I

1:27:12

came in and I looked at it

1:27:14

and I was like I don't even

1:27:16

understand how you did that and but

1:27:18

but I think that that's what opens

1:27:21

up when we are vibe coding is

1:27:23

people who have ideas who are going

1:27:25

to just start and the same thing

1:27:27

we saw with blogging same thing we

1:27:30

saw with podcasting things and we saw

1:27:32

our Photoshop people with ideas there's so

1:27:34

many ideas out there that aren't being

1:27:36

brought to the world because of the

1:27:38

infrastructure and so I think that that

1:27:41

we're going to see a lot a

1:27:43

lot more of that. And I think

1:27:45

that Apple needs to pay attention to

1:27:47

that to go back to WWC. We

1:27:50

have to see something about how AI

1:27:52

is going to make it easier for

1:27:54

us to publish. Or at least even

1:27:56

build stuff for our house, like a

1:27:58

CG, or a coding version of a

1:28:01

3D, or a coding version of a

1:28:03

3D printer, I just need to be

1:28:05

able to publish stuff for our house,

1:28:07

like a CG, or a coding version

1:28:09

of a coding, so that it just

1:28:12

does the little funky thing that I'm

1:28:14

trying to show that they're going to

1:28:16

do that they're going to do that.

1:28:18

All right, we're gonna take a little

1:28:21

break. We have gotten to two stories

1:28:23

so far, and I think we should

1:28:25

probably do about 80 more. So a

1:28:27

speed round coming up, you're watching Mac

1:28:29

Break or listening. You know, you can

1:28:32

do that too. Mac Break Weekly with

1:28:34

Andy Anako. IH natco.com, coming soon. Bless

1:28:36

you, sir. You don't have to write

1:28:38

your own CMS every time, do you?

1:28:41

No, but you do have to pick

1:28:43

one. Yeah, it's not easy, is it?

1:28:45

Yeah, I know. Since I realize I

1:28:47

can stop fighting with WordPress, which was

1:28:49

not working, it's like, oh, wait a

1:28:52

minute, I can leave WordPress forever, like,

1:28:54

oh. I am such a fan, I

1:28:56

know I've plugged it before, of micro

1:28:58

blog, and it's just doing exactly what

1:29:00

I want, cross posts to all the.

1:29:03

Socials is it does short posts does

1:29:05

long posts it's really worse. I'm sorry.

1:29:07

Well, I'll be quick about this, but

1:29:09

this looks back to what Alice was

1:29:12

saying earlier like. If WordPress did what

1:29:14

I wanted it to do 15 years

1:29:16

ago, I'd still be using WordPress. I

1:29:18

want something that will let me run

1:29:20

a blog with a couple of features

1:29:23

on it. I don't want a complete

1:29:25

like web publishing and web app development.

1:29:27

Yeah, e-commerce platform. Well, I don't know.

1:29:29

I shouldn't give you any more ideas.

1:29:31

I've already I've already picked up this.

1:29:34

Hello. where they are constantly chewing over

1:29:36

these exacts issues today is our fifth

1:29:38

anniversary oh happy birthday that's fantastic we're

1:29:40

gonna have a little special on at

1:29:43

six o'clock tonight where we talk about

1:29:45

a little bit tonight where we talk

1:29:47

about a little bit but this is

1:29:49

we have not missed a single day

1:29:51

since March 25th 2020 so that's remarkable

1:29:54

that's fun days no so this was

1:29:56

your COVID project that just never ended

1:29:58

once you've done it once you've done

1:30:00

it straight for a year and a

1:30:03

half. It just can't break it. Can't

1:30:05

break it now. Well congratulations. Happy birthday.

1:30:07

That's amazing. Five years. Every single day.

1:30:09

Every single day. Every single day. Not

1:30:11

me every single day. And most days.

1:30:14

But somebody's been there. I'm a group

1:30:16

of people have been there every day.

1:30:18

And Jason Snell Six colors.com. When did

1:30:20

you make this switch to doing your

1:30:22

own thing? How long? I was doing

1:30:25

my own thing. It was a little

1:30:27

more than 10 years ago last fall.

1:30:29

Nice. And I. That's a good thing,

1:30:31

right? It's all good. We didn't know

1:30:34

at the time. And it hasn't gone

1:30:36

exactly the way I expected because, you

1:30:38

know, podcasts really grew beyond what I

1:30:40

expected to be part of my job.

1:30:42

And I wouldn't give up writing even

1:30:45

though I the more I write these

1:30:47

long articles and then nobody says anything

1:30:49

and then I'm on a podcast and

1:30:51

I talk about them and then suddenly

1:30:54

I get all this feedback and I

1:30:56

realize, oh, yeah, people are listening more

1:30:58

than the reading. It's all part of,

1:31:00

some people read, some people listen. You

1:31:02

gotta do it at that content of

1:31:05

both. It's the Snell Trans Media Empire,

1:31:07

my friends. As long as I can,

1:31:09

as long as I can, you know,

1:31:11

pay my mortgage, I'm happy with it.

1:31:13

Yeah, it's the major. And I'm also

1:31:16

much less stressed out than I was

1:31:18

when I worked at a corporate job.

1:31:20

Yeah. I honestly, I know it's courageous,

1:31:22

it's risky, but the more people I

1:31:25

see doing this. Now it's, I think,

1:31:27

a little bit less courageous because you

1:31:29

see so many people succeeding. Jessica Lesson

1:31:31

just got featured in the New York

1:31:33

Times for starting the information 10 years

1:31:36

ago and having the boldness. And now

1:31:38

she's done so well. She's investing in

1:31:40

other startup blogs to help other journalists

1:31:42

have a voice that they own of

1:31:45

their own. And I think that's, we're

1:31:47

living in interesting times, yes. And sometimes

1:31:49

that's not a bad thing. Exactly. Not

1:31:51

all bad. Yeah. Sometimes that's not a

1:31:53

euphemism. You talked about blogger earlier, like

1:31:56

I had to build my own site

1:31:58

myself and build it with membership plan

1:32:00

myself and figure out all that stuff.

1:32:02

And today. All that stuff is like

1:32:04

out there of various products will let

1:32:07

you do it and you plug into

1:32:09

it and I know that Andy is

1:32:11

working on one in particular and like

1:32:13

it's it's good. It's really good because

1:32:16

I have helped over the last 10

1:32:18

years a bunch of non technical people

1:32:20

to, you know, steer them toward a

1:32:22

place where they can make money making

1:32:24

content because that's what they're good at.

1:32:27

They're not good at the computer stuff

1:32:29

and it's. great that you can do

1:32:31

that. You know, there are lots of

1:32:33