0:00

It's time for Mac Break

0:02

Weekly, Andy Anacco, Alex Lindsay,

0:04

Jason Snell are here. John

0:06

Gruber is sad. He's mad,

0:08

and he's no longer a

0:10

believer. We'll find out why.

0:12

We'll also talk about the

0:14

new iPhone Air and debunk

0:16

one common myth or rumor

0:18

about it. And then it's

0:21

time to do some headbanging,

0:23

Metallica on Vision Pro, all

0:25

that coming up next. I'm

0:27

Mac Break Weekly. Podcasts

0:30

You Love from People

0:32

You Trust. This is

0:35

Twit. This is Mac

0:38

Break Weekly, episode 964,

0:40

recorded Tuesday, March

0:42

18th 2025. I'm

0:45

just disappointed. It's

0:47

time for Mac

0:49

Break Weekly! The show we

0:51

cover the latest Apple News!

0:54

And Apple is feeling really

0:56

bad today. Because they were

0:58

spanked. They've been spanked. Andy

1:00

Anako is here. Hello, Andrew!

1:02

Hey, they're ho there. Yeah,

1:05

it's, there's very few times

1:07

that I say, gee, I'm

1:09

glad that I'm not in a

1:11

high position of authority at Apple

1:13

with the commensurate pay and respect.

1:15

This is one of those weeks

1:17

where I'm very happy to just

1:20

be a commentator. Just to come.

1:22

Just a lowly commentator. That's just

1:24

to be able to judge. Jason.

1:26

Jason. I'm not mad either. I'm

1:29

just disappointed. Yes, that's right.

1:31

I'm just disappointed. The worst

1:33

thing a father could say,

1:35

I'm disappointed in you. I

1:38

expected better. And Alex Lindsay

1:40

from Office Hours. Global, hello,

1:42

Alex. Hello, good to be

1:44

here. Hello, hello, hello. So

1:46

you know who's disappointed? John

1:48

Gruber. It's hysterical to

1:50

watch. Because... I mean,

1:53

maybe it's because he expected so

1:55

much more of Apple than I

1:57

did. that he also added in

1:59

like the class the thing that

2:01

makes it hurt twice as much

2:03

but when your dad says I

2:06

just blame myself because I guess

2:08

I just screwed up and expecting

2:10

so much he actually said in

2:12

like paragraph in second I can't

2:14

I can't believe that I didn't

2:16

see this this is the biggest

2:18

mistake I've ever made my life

2:21

like not not not pointing out

2:23

that these they'd never actually shown

2:25

this thing working And that's like,

2:27

oh, this is why we love

2:29

you, Joe. So we should probably,

2:31

for those who are not like

2:33

us, obsessively following the Apple, the

2:36

Apple, the Apple ups and downs.

2:38

It's all about Apple intelligence, which

2:40

if you've been listening to this

2:42

show, I think you probably knew

2:44

long ago was, you know, struggling.

2:46

Not great, having a hard time.

2:48

Eventually, Apple told, gave a statement

2:51

to John Grubber's daring fireball saying,

2:53

yeah, we're probably not gonna have

2:55

Apple Intelligence until next year, which

2:57

is 2026 and Apple, or later

2:59

this year, or whatever they said.

3:01

Anyway, 2026. So, then John apparently

3:03

went back, wrote the story, and

3:06

then, and then saw about it.

3:08

Steward. if you will. And put

3:10

out a piece. Yeah, he stood

3:12

on my podcast. I caught him

3:14

mid-mid, he was on upgrade last

3:16

week and I caught him mid-moment

3:18

where he was working through his

3:21

feelings and he used the word

3:23

bamboozled at one point and I

3:25

was like, oh, he's feeling hard

3:27

here, a lot of feelings going

3:29

on. Wow. He basically... He kind

3:31

of implied that Apple, something's rotten

3:33

in the state of Cupertino, he

3:36

said. Which is not a good,

3:38

not a felicitous headline. I'm just

3:40

going to say for a number

3:42

of reasons. Mainly, because Cupertino is

3:44

a city, United States. But anyway.

3:46

Okay. He said I should have

3:48

had my head examined. How I

3:51

missed this. Ultimately, he says Apple

3:53

lied to us. And Apple, oh

3:55

my God, this was, I couldn't,

3:57

when I'm reading this, I'm going,

3:59

what the hell? See, this is

4:01

what comes of thinking of Apple

4:03

as something other than a company.

4:06

A corporation. A corporation. Yeah. This

4:08

is what comes of thinking Apple

4:10

is your lover. It isn't your

4:12

lover, it is a company, it

4:14

is dedicated to profit. Let me

4:16

find the paragraph, he goes on

4:18

and on and on. My deeply

4:21

misguided mental framework for Apple Intelligence,

4:23

it gets worse, Apple had its,

4:25

anyway, he basically says Apple has

4:27

fallen off its pedestal. Apple used

4:29

to be the greatest, most wonderful

4:31

company in the world. But now

4:33

now that just so, so, damaged.

4:36

By, I'm sorry, I'm scrolling through

4:38

this whole thing. I should have

4:40

probably. He got a lot of

4:42

feelings out. He got to. It's

4:44

a good read. Yeah. So, um,

4:46

has, is, the ride is over.

4:49

He ends. Yeah. When mediocrity excuses

4:51

and BS take root, they take

4:53

over. A culture of excellence, accountability

4:55

and integrity cannot abide the acceptance

4:57

of any of these things and

4:59

will quickly collapse upon itself with

5:01

the acceptance of all three, a

5:04

plague on your house, Apple. Oh

5:06

no, he didn't say that part.

5:08

But he was really hurt that

5:10

Apple would have lied. Is it

5:12

fair to say they lied about

5:14

Apple intelligence? I think really what

5:16

he kind of implied and I

5:19

think most people have said is

5:21

Mark, we have said this last

5:23

week, marketing got a little ahead

5:25

of what the engineering team could

5:27

do. I think that this is

5:29

definitely a. This is where we

5:31

finally get open warfare, so to

5:34

speak, between engineering and marketing at

5:36

Apple. This was, I think most

5:38

of us noticed that when Apple

5:40

announced all of these Apple intelligence

5:42

features, we didn't see even a

5:44

scripted, recorded demo. We saw a

5:46

mock-up video of what this would

5:49

look like if it were actually

5:51

working. I don't think that they...

5:53

necessarily lied, they did marketing. And

5:55

I know that's often a great,

5:57

there's a big gulf, there's a

5:59

hard to tell the difference between

6:01

those two. But some people, I

6:04

don't think, I don't think John's

6:06

included, but I think some people

6:08

were free to think that, oh

6:10

wow, this is a demo of,

6:12

of course it's a lab demo,

6:14

it's not ready to ship yet,

6:16

but this is what's going to

6:19

do. Other people were able to

6:21

see that this is just. again

6:23

an illustration of here's an IOU

6:25

for what we hope to do

6:27

comparing contrast with what Google has

6:29

always done with Gemini which is

6:31

they will give you a really

6:34

lame highly controlled demo but it

6:36

will be like a live demo

6:38

so you can say that wow

6:40

this doesn't look like very much

6:42

right now but at least they

6:44

showed something that was actually working

6:46

what I think my interpretation of

6:49

what of reading Guru's post was

6:51

that his he was He really

6:53

felt upset about this because he

6:55

felt as though marketing overstepped itself

6:57

and suggested that Apple intelligence was

6:59

further along than it actually was

7:01

where they didn't have anything working

7:04

whatsoever that under those circumstances it

7:06

was extremely sketchy for them to

7:08

show a mock-up of this thing

7:10

actually working. He writes, it's easy

7:12

to imagine. Someone in the executive

7:14

ranks arguing, we need to show

7:16

something that only Apple could do.

7:19

But it turns out they announced

7:21

something Apple couldn't do. And now

7:23

they look so out of their

7:25

depths, so in over their heads,

7:27

that not only are the years

7:29

behind the state of the art

7:31

and AI, but they don't even

7:34

know what they can ship or

7:36

when. headline features from nine months

7:38

ago not only haven't shipped but

7:40

still haven't even been demonstrated, which

7:42

I for one now presume means

7:44

they can't be demonstrated. This is

7:46

italicized because they don't work. Yeah,

7:49

I mean it is, I don't

7:51

know, I think part of this

7:53

is that he obviously brought a

7:55

little more credulity to the demos

7:57

last year than most of us

7:59

did. I mean, I think it's

8:01

very clear that Apple felt incredible

8:04

pressure. to show that they were

8:06

in pushing it hard and potentially

8:08

lowering their standards right there were

8:10

some things that were very clearly

8:12

going to be very hard for

8:14

them to pull off clearly not

8:16

going to happen until 2025 right

8:19

even at the time they made

8:21

no claims that those things were

8:23

going to happen soon and so

8:25

i mean john's not wrong in

8:27

saying that they felt pressure they

8:29

lowered their standards and i don't

8:31

know if i would say that

8:34

they lied and he is right

8:36

it is marketing and i think

8:38

also there's probably a cultural disconnect

8:40

a cultural problem where somewhere someone

8:42

said well we can probably do

8:44

this and in normal circumstances the

8:46

executives in question would be like

8:49

hmm that's probably is not good

8:51

enough let's just boot it to

8:53

next year and they were not

8:55

gonna boot AI features to next

8:57

year they really wanted them out

8:59

really couldn't and so they lowered

9:02

their standards now I think that's

9:04

one issue which is they clearly

9:06

someone somewhere misjudged whether they could

9:08

ship this stuff in the, you

9:10

know, in the, in the, in

9:12

the Apple OS year that we're

9:14

in right now, the iOS 18

9:17

year. So that was a mistake.

9:19

The secondary mistake, and I think

9:21

that this is actually a better

9:23

reason for, for John to get

9:25

mad and for all of us

9:27

to be grumpy, is the marketing

9:29

plan. And I go back to

9:32

my thing that I've been saying

9:34

for a while now about Apple,

9:36

Apple seems only have one playbook.

9:38

So they sort of have the

9:40

way that you, when you're winning,

9:42

why, why change anything, was handed

9:44

these features as if they were

9:47

done and said, great, we'll make

9:49

a commercial with Bella Ramsey where

9:51

we talk about all these things

9:53

that aren't gonna ship maybe ever.

9:55

And we'll just advertise it as

9:57

if it's real happening today. And

9:59

I think that was a huge

10:02

disconnect and a major problem because.

10:04

The whole Apple Intelligence campaign started

10:06

before Apple Intelligence shipped any feature,

10:08

right? I would like to point

10:10

out that I've been saying this,

10:12

I've been watching these ads, saying

10:14

Apple's pushing these features that it

10:17

doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah. I mean,

10:19

this was, I think, obvious. Now,

10:21

I guess because it's John Gruber,

10:23

the entire chattering class is going

10:25

crazy over this. Ben Thompson, you

10:27

know, skated right on and, and

10:29

Owen, oh, Alec his, says, he

10:32

writes, you have to read the

10:34

whole thing. Rubers, a long time

10:36

follower of Apple, close to its

10:38

high priests and kings. He has

10:40

a historical understanding of Apple like

10:42

no other. When he criticizes Apple,

10:44

you know the situation is much

10:47

worse. I mean, is it wrong

10:49

to say, for our younger viewers,

10:51

maybe they won't remember this, but

10:53

it's the, if we've lost Cronkite,

10:55

we've lost the American people. It's

10:57

like that kind of moment in

10:59

Vietnam, where it's like, bad. And

11:02

that's when the people in the

11:04

government were like, uh-oh, like if

11:06

Uncle Walter and Middle America is

11:08

now questioning the war in Vietnam,

11:10

things are bad. Well, it's like

11:12

if John Gruber is is thoroughly

11:14

disgusted with something that Apple's been

11:17

doing, that's a bad sign. I

11:19

think that Apple has, and we've

11:21

talked about this on the show,

11:23

quite a few times, I think

11:25

they have a no problem, which

11:27

is that they're not using it

11:29

often enough. And I think that

11:32

that's been, we see the Steve

11:34

Jobs was brought to the table

11:36

right right he just he just

11:38

where we get you know you

11:40

see this kind of creep of

11:42

the number of products that are

11:44

out at one time the this

11:47

confusing process with the the chipsets

11:49

the the constant changing of the

11:51

OS in a way that not

11:53

necessarily is always forward. And oftentimes

11:55

if it is forward, it's too

11:57

far forward, too fast. A lot

11:59

of things just not being stable.

12:02

And you just feel like they're

12:04

just not, they're so aggressively trying

12:06

to keep up with someone that

12:08

is imaginary for them. Like, you

12:10

know, I don't know who they're

12:12

trying to keep up with. It's

12:14

not like Apple users are going

12:17

to jump ship next week, you

12:19

know. And so, so I think

12:21

that. And again, I think that

12:23

their belief that they needed Apple

12:25

intelligence there was much stronger than

12:27

the actual need and whatever, whether

12:29

they needed it or not, it's

12:32

a lot worse to have this

12:34

happen. I think that I applaud

12:36

John for, you know, slapping him

12:38

on the wrist. I think a

12:40

lot of us have been talking

12:42

about Apple moving too fast down

12:44

the path of, you know, their

12:47

ideas rather than really making sure

12:49

that it makes impact. The question

12:51

really is what's going on the

12:53

next. different and special, which I've

12:55

not believed, I've never believed. And

12:57

so I wasn't, I'm less surprised.

13:00

I mean, Google did the same

13:02

thing with Google, I mean, this

13:04

is not unusual. You know, I

13:06

would say that Apple does tend

13:08

to move a lot slower and

13:10

with a lot more intentionality than

13:12

most of the other companies out

13:15

there. I mean, they really, I

13:17

mean, a lot of the other

13:19

companies, you know, but they're a

13:21

company, I can take plenty of

13:23

failures in Apple's part. What I

13:25

can't think of and I think

13:27

Gruber's right is I can't think

13:30

of time that Apple marketing has

13:32

said they had a feature that

13:34

they didn't have. But that very

13:36

few companies will do that. That's

13:38

a fumble. I'm just not hurt

13:40

by it. Like, that's just, that's

13:42

just, well, and I say, screw

13:45

it up, Mark goes screw up.

13:47

That he's invested some of his

13:49

own personal, you know, worth in,

13:51

in his calibration of, of being

13:53

able to read and, right, what

13:55

Apple says and trust, what they

13:57

say, and what's the level where

14:00

you can trust them. And I.

14:02

I think that's the thing that

14:04

bugs him the most, is that

14:06

Apple has always prided itself on

14:08

being a company, that when you

14:10

see something, when they announce something,

14:12

it's either going to ship or

14:15

it's very close. They have a

14:17

high degree of confidence. They don't

14:19

do the fear and certainty and

14:21

doubt. Here's some vaporware. We'll get

14:23

to it eventually. It's a CES

14:25

product that may or may not.

14:27

You know announcing things that don't

14:30

exist like that bottom line is is

14:32

that here we are in March Nine months

14:34

after WWDC and that that product you know

14:36

those things aren't in data Nobody's seen them

14:38

and they may never ship and it feels

14:41

like again for me who I mean I

14:43

use AI all day every day, it's really

14:45

important to me and I just don't care

14:48

when Apple gets around to it because I'm

14:50

plenty full. So I have this whole thing

14:52

like I don't understand why it had to

14:54

happen and it feels like just a very

14:57

enforced error in the same way that the

14:59

mag charging that they announced that never

15:01

came to like who cares like who

15:03

cares about that product. And so they

15:05

got excited in both cases they got

15:07

excited and had to tell us something

15:09

that didn't exist when. No one was

15:11

really waiting for it. Like I

15:14

just don't, I mean, I get

15:16

the analysts are really waiting for

15:19

it, but I don't think that

15:21

the average Apple user was like,

15:23

oh my gosh, when is Apple

15:26

intelligence coming? So, you know, maybe

15:28

that's what I'm talking about

15:30

the average app, every, when

15:32

it comes to, they're not

15:34

alone in this. I mean,

15:37

companies have done this for years,

15:39

I guess. If you thought Apple was

15:41

somehow special, but I've never, I've always

15:43

thought Apple's a company like any other

15:45

company and they're gonna make mistakes like

15:48

this. I don't think it's the end of

15:50

the world. I think you're right, Alex, when

15:52

you say that's not why people buy iPhones.

15:54

I don't think there's, I don't think the

15:56

market is, the Apple customers are gonna

15:58

say, oh, I'm not buying any. more Apple products,

16:00

they lied. I mean, what I really

16:02

hope this leads to is Apple lets

16:05

us just say, hey, for Siri, I

16:07

would like you to activate chat cheap

16:09

ET all the time. I'm gonna say,

16:11

I'm gonna give you the approval for

16:13

it to be just used, and let

16:15

me just use that. Because that's what

16:17

I do right now, is I have

16:19

to fumble around to get chat cheap.

16:22

chat GBT to open up, and then

16:24

I just start hitting the button. I

16:26

sit there and talk to it about

16:28

what I'm trying to figure out while

16:30

I'm working. And it is seamless. But

16:32

I have to just get to that

16:34

first bit. And I can't just say,

16:36

hey, Shlomo, ask a question. And I

16:38

just want to be able to, as

16:41

a user, I'm hoping this failure and

16:43

the delay, means that Apple will stop

16:45

trying to protect us from ourselves and

16:47

just let us have the AI that

16:49

we're already using all the time. I

16:51

almost, I mean here, we will never

16:53

know for sure, but my theory is

16:55

that this decision was made not because,

16:57

and this is one of the reasons

17:00

it's sort of a sin. It was

17:02

made not because of consumer demand. I

17:04

think the consumer demand for AI is

17:06

overstated. And also, as Alex points out,

17:08

a lot of that demand is fulfilled

17:10

by just using the apps and doing

17:12

it that way. I think this was

17:14

about Apple feeling, executives feeling like the

17:16

in the pressure cooker of like the,

17:19

sorry, the echo chamber really of Silicon

17:21

Valley that everybody's talking about AI and

17:23

maybe investors are worried about their stock

17:25

price and they're worried about recruiting people

17:27

or retaining people. because of the perception.

17:29

Hiring is another reason you do stuff

17:31

like this, but I don't think the

17:33

Apple's thing that they usually focus on,

17:36

which is consumer demand and fulfilling the

17:38

needs of consumers, was a motivator here,

17:40

and that is part of the problem,

17:42

is that they tried to do a

17:44

spin on it. A lot of these

17:46

features, when you look at them and

17:48

when we've talked about them, it doesn't

17:50

read as. Apple sensed a problem and

17:52

then is using AI to solve it.

17:55

All of them are Apple had an

17:57

agenda to push AI into their operating

17:59

system and found places to stick it,

18:01

which is not the same thing as

18:03

solving a problem. Right. Organically because the

18:05

problem existed. It's because they wanted to

18:07

shove AI features in so they could

18:09

make those claims. And if this, I

18:11

think the best news of this whole

18:14

story is, like I said earlier, when

18:16

you're going great, there's no reason to

18:18

change anything. And I have to hope

18:20

that after lots of behind the scenes

18:22

grousing about Syria for 10 years and

18:24

about AI for the last couple of

18:26

years, that this may be finally... serves

18:28

as a kind of a punch in

18:31

the gut to Apple to make them

18:33

say, oh, the way we're structured internally,

18:35

because I don't think this is a

18:37

lazy programmer somewhere. I don't think this

18:39

is one bad Apple in the management

18:41

camp. I think this is a cultural

18:43

structural problem inside Apple that caused this

18:45

to go on like this. And maybe

18:47

it is the punch that they need

18:50

to say, oh, we need to actually

18:52

rethink things and change things and make

18:54

things different. And what Alex says is

18:56

absolutely right. able to rely on third-party

18:58

AI solutions and put it in the

19:00

APIs for iOS 19, providing APIs for

19:02

developers to use Apple's models so that

19:04

they don't have to bake in their

19:06

own less efficient models when you download

19:09

an app and try to run it

19:11

on your iPhone. Like there are lots

19:13

of things they could do that are

19:15

more Apple-like that they didn't do because

19:17

they had this bad decision and I

19:19

think a broken structure internally that led

19:21

to this kind of dysfunction. And it's

19:23

like it's easy to just ignore it

19:25

when you're number one. And they've been

19:28

number one for a long time. Maybe

19:30

now they've finally gotten the message. I

19:32

disagree slightly. I agree that it wasn't

19:34

important to, for the purposes of improving

19:36

the product, it was not important for

19:38

them to ship Apple intelligence in late,

19:40

to start rolling it out in late

19:42

2024 and make serious upgrades in late,

19:45

excuse me, in 2025. Absolutely agree with

19:47

that. However, we talked about this a

19:49

little bit last week about how at

19:51

that moment, that moment in June, Apple

19:53

had just come off of two serious,

19:55

one. hugely embarrassing development hitch and one

19:57

slightly embarrassing one where they'd spent a

19:59

billion dollars a year for 10 years

20:01

on a car they decided never to

20:04

ship and they had spent the the

20:06

product to their credit they had never

20:08

sent anything about that car right right

20:10

no I'm saying but but it was

20:12

well known that this it was yeah

20:14

but they never made the announcement they

20:16

didn't start running ads about you're gonna

20:18

love the Apple car I'm going somewhere

20:20

with this. They had shipped, then they

20:23

shipped the Apple Vision Pro, which Tim

20:25

had spent the past year or so

20:27

hyping up in the way, in the

20:29

limited way that Tim can hype up

20:31

an unannounced product by saying, oh, we

20:33

think VR is a very big thing,

20:35

and yes, we're very, very looking forward

20:37

to, we're doing stuff like that. Okay.

20:39

I think that they, it was very,

20:42

very important for them to. Let's make

20:44

a clear statement that we haven't let

20:46

AI pass us by. We've been working

20:48

on AI since, for the past, since

20:50

2016, 2017, or earlier. Here is our

20:52

roadmap for AI because you can't. just

20:54

simply as Apple has proven, you can't

20:56

just announce a roadmap and then start

20:59

shipping something a year later. That's a

21:01

10 year process to get where everybody

21:03

else is right now. Okay. So they

21:05

least it was very important to analysts

21:07

to their own culture to indicate that

21:09

we have we're not just thinking that

21:11

this is something simple that we can

21:13

knock off. We're not thinking that this

21:15

is something that we can absolutely ignore.

21:18

This is potentially something like support for

21:20

the internet support for the worldwide web

21:22

support for Wi-Fi. And we promise you

21:24

that if you buy a computer, a

21:26

Mac today or an iPhone today that's

21:28

supposed to last five or six or

21:30

seven years, it's not going to be

21:32

functionally obsolete in five or six years

21:34

because in that time we will have

21:37

developed our own in-house stuff. So I

21:39

can see the pressure that there was

21:41

some pressure that was necessary. However, where

21:43

they've really screwed up is... They could

21:45

have just simply said, this is a

21:47

long road. We have seen, we have

21:49

noticed the missteps of our competitors, the

21:51

serious missteps of our competitors in spreading

21:53

disinformation. in creating deep fakes and we

21:56

don't we don't care to repeat those

21:58

mistakes so that we will proceeding we

22:00

will be proceeding carefully and slowly and

22:02

we have no timetable to announce as

22:04

yet however here is our vision for

22:06

the future that would have been absolutely

22:08

sufficient but I don't I don't think

22:10

that that Apple had the option of

22:13

say of pretending that we allowed the

22:15

open AI app and the chat GPT

22:17

app into the app store so we

22:19

got it. No they have to. be

22:21

able to show what they got. They

22:23

got some skin the game. But there

22:25

was a spectrum there, right? Like, they

22:27

didn't need, the features that didn't ship,

22:29

they didn't need to announce, I don't

22:32

think, right? Like, Gen Mogee seems like

22:34

a pretty no-brainer. I don't love image

22:36

playgrounds, but Gen Mogee seems like a

22:38

pretty no-brainer. I don't love image playgrounds,

22:40

but Gen Mogee seems to have actually,

22:42

image playgrounds, but Gen Mogee seems like,

22:44

I have, I have, I have, I

22:46

have, they've actually deleted, they're, they're, they're,

22:48

they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're,

22:51

they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're,

22:53

they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're,

22:55

they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're,

22:57

they Turns out, yeah, they were way

22:59

behind, they were caught flat-footed, and they

23:01

made some rash decisions that are coming

23:03

back to hurt them now. But the

23:05

real question is not, you know, details

23:07

about why they made this decision. The

23:10

real question is, what do they have?

23:12

Are those features dead? Are they coming

23:14

back? What are they, and what are

23:16

they gonna announce in June, and are

23:18

they going to... Learn from the last

23:20

year because remember those were on Apple

23:22

or on Apple terms rash decisions Right

23:24

like Apple doesn't do things in six

23:27

months a turn like that that doesn't

23:29

happen and they did it this time

23:31

and we see the result So like

23:33

what have they learned in the last

23:35

year? And are they learned in the

23:37

last year? And are they going to

23:39

change direction? Are they going to stay

23:41

the course? Are they going to throw

23:43

features out and put different features in?

23:46

Are they going to? to add, no

23:48

matter what our level of skepticism is

23:50

about anything Apple says in its marketing,

23:52

all of us took a step, like,

23:54

plus five, to skepticism. Wherever you started,

23:56

we're all more skeptical now than we

23:58

were a year ago. I'm not because

24:00

I don't, you know, Amazon. Nobody, nobody's,

24:02

no, John, John Gruber of Amazon, which

24:05

doesn't exist, of course, wrote an article

24:07

saying, geez, Amazon promised Smart Alexa Plus

24:09

a year ago and they still don't

24:11

have it. Oh my God, they lied,

24:13

because nobody expects anything from Amazon or

24:15

Google. But the real question you say

24:17

that that that means that people who

24:19

used to expect something from Apple are

24:21

now. Yeah, much less inclined to expect

24:24

something from Apple that they're now more

24:26

like the rest of them. Yeah, I

24:28

mean, the thing is is that, you

24:30

know, all of life is a confidence

24:32

game and and when people start losing

24:34

confidence, things start to fall apart really

24:36

quickly. You know, there's a lot of

24:38

things that are held together just because

24:41

we all stop at stop signs and

24:43

stop lines because we have the confidence

24:45

that everyone else is going to do

24:47

it and everyone has the confidence that

24:49

we're going to do it. You know,

24:51

but it's the confidence that we're going

24:53

to we're going to do. Right, to

24:55

be honest. So, but the point is

24:57

we have- We stop because we think

25:00

they're not stopping. There's so many things

25:02

that we do that all live inside

25:04

a confidence. A trust, a confidence, and

25:06

the reality distortion only works when that

25:08

reality distortion is followed up with something

25:10

that is a result, looks like a

25:12

result. And if that fades away, then

25:14

absolutely, and it is, I do think

25:16

it's fading away. You know, like the

25:19

only thing that matters. Shouldn't matter to

25:21

anybody, you know, only thing that matters

25:23

to me is, is Gruber right that

25:25

there's a structural problem at Apple? You

25:27

know, I'm sorry he got but hurt,

25:29

I'm sorry people's faith in Apple was,

25:31

no, this is a structural problem and

25:33

we've seen it because Siri's been so

25:35

bad for so long and they hired

25:38

John Jan Dreya from Google what, five

25:40

years ago, longer, and he was gonna

25:42

fix Syrian, fix all their machine learning

25:44

stuff and all of that, and, and

25:46

yet they have been, I mean... Part

25:48

of it is a tactical problem, which

25:50

is they looked somebody at Apple certainly

25:52

raised their hand and said, hey, LLLM's

25:55

are a thing. And senior people at

25:57

Apple were like, nah. it's dumb, it's

25:59

never going to amount to anything and

26:01

that was a mistake. But I do

26:03

think that if you look at this,

26:05

there seems to be a real, I

26:07

got it, you take it kind of

26:09

thing going on between Craig Federagi, who's

26:11

in charge of software and John Gendreya,

26:14

who's in charge of AI, and whatever,

26:16

you know, in the end, we can

26:18

speculate about what's broken in there, but

26:20

What ships is what matters in

26:22

series of mess and Mark Herman

26:24

says they're not going to get

26:26

new conversational series until 2027 like

26:29

it's not good. Even if Apple

26:31

hadn't I mean what if Apple

26:33

had never even mentioned AI and

26:35

just shipped a few things they shipped

26:37

wouldn't they be in the same boat

26:39

people would say oh Apple's missing the

26:42

bus. Yes. So it doesn't. I

26:44

think it would be worse. I think

26:46

that there is a more broad public

26:48

perception now that Apple is on it.

26:50

Even if they're struggling, even if it's

26:53

messy, and honestly those ads as misleading

26:55

as we say they are, I think

26:57

if you asked a member of the

26:59

general public, if Apple stuff does AI,

27:01

they'd say yes. They were. And I think

27:03

one thing that they're missing is I

27:05

don't think that the leadership right now

27:07

is the same level of strength that

27:09

of course it had under under some,

27:12

you know, a lot of the corporations

27:14

that you see moving really quickly often

27:16

move because they have a strong man

27:18

as the CEO, like someone who, you

27:20

know, whether it was Leger at T-Mobile

27:22

or Jensen at an invidia or, you

27:24

know, those types of things where you

27:26

have somebody who is pointing the ship. Very

27:28

vigorously and that person can destroy the ship

27:31

as well like like that we're seeing that

27:33

in other in other companies right now But

27:35

the but the point is is that that

27:37

that that growth of making decisions and whether

27:39

that person has good taste or not and

27:41

in Apple's case Steve had good taste But

27:44

I don't feel like after he left there

27:46

hasn't been somebody else with this kind of

27:48

singular vision of this is what we need

27:50

to do or this is what we're all

27:52

about. There's a lot of people that are

27:54

having a lot of meetings that have a

27:57

lot of things going on and it's which

27:59

is a typical operation problem, but it's

28:01

not, it doesn't have that singular vision,

28:03

which is allowed Apple to expand into

28:05

a lot of other places, but I

28:07

do think it has taken their eye

28:10

off of the, the original ball, whether

28:12

that's plus or minus. And I think

28:14

that makes, I think that that's why

28:16

we see more features than stability. I

28:18

think that that's why we see more

28:20

announcements than products. Those all are things

28:22

that are absolutely very common with large

28:25

corporations that are that are making decisions

28:27

by committee. Yeah, and also the thing

28:29

we have to remember what Apple is

28:31

My theory of all businesses, particularly tech

28:33

businesses, is that there is one machine

28:35

in the basement that is responsible for

28:37

generating all of the money, or at

28:40

least so much of the money that

28:42

it is really the entire business. And

28:44

everything has to... enhance the operation and

28:46

the function of this machine. For Apple,

28:48

it is hardware, hardware, hardware, hardware. Every

28:50

question has to be at some point

28:53

filtered through the question, how will this

28:55

help us sell more iPhones? How will

28:57

this help us sell more Max, more

28:59

iPads, more AirPods? And yes, they have

29:01

services, but I think that that's still

29:03

one of the biggies. So when you

29:05

ask them a question like, AI is

29:08

not, whereas Google is in a position

29:10

where Their machine is services. What can

29:12

we turn into services? Particularly, what can

29:14

we turn into cloud services? What can

29:16

we turn to cloud computing services? AI

29:18

is an absolute natural fit. And also

29:20

a feature that will help Android users

29:23

continue to use the phone and continue

29:25

to feed information into the ecosystem. Apple

29:27

doesn't have that. So when you... Ask

29:29

them internally when they debate what should

29:31

we do with AI. There's no obvious

29:33

answer to the question how will this

29:35

help us sell phones or how will

29:38

this help us sell services in the

29:40

short term. And that's I think where

29:42

they can often do things that are

29:44

hard to do things that are hard

29:46

to predict from the outside. I think

29:48

one of the things that's really hard

29:50

here is that that Siri is the

29:53

obvious one that if you could fix

29:55

it, it would be a huge deal.

29:57

Like I get on a get on

29:59

a drive, I'm trying to figure to

30:01

figure out. I want to do with

30:03

Siri. Siri. And so, and the only

30:06

thing that bugs me about it is

30:08

that I have to go find the

30:10

app. I can't just ask, say, hey,

30:12

slomo, what is this, and get a

30:14

reason. Like my wife. Ask Siri something

30:16

the other day and I was like,

30:18

what are you doing? And I just

30:21

opened up like, like, because Siri came

30:23

up with some kind of crazy answer.

30:25

And I was like, why are we

30:27

asking the Siri that? That's not what

30:29

she does. She does timers and she

30:31

does the weather and the sunrise. Like,

30:33

like, that's what she knows how to

30:36

do. She'll ask Siri things and I

30:38

just know that's like, you're not going

30:40

to get an answer. What's interesting though

30:42

is that I asked, we asked of

30:44

course chat GT and it gave this

30:46

very complete answer. And it gave us

30:48

some extra stuff that you might want

30:51

to know. And then we said, well,

30:53

what about this? And then it gave

30:55

us a whole bunch of other stuff

30:57

and it was magical. Like it was

30:59

a magical. Yeah. So this is something

31:01

Ohm Mallic actually does say he has

31:04

an update to his piece and he

31:06

says, my premise that Apple did this

31:08

for the market. was disputed by a

31:10

number of Wall Street insiders who said,

31:12

no, if Apple cared about the market,

31:14

they'd focus on the profit maker and

31:16

they wouldn't be worried about this kind

31:19

of stuff. So this isn't really, I

31:21

mean, he disputes, and I maybe don't

31:23

know if I agree with that, that

31:25

this was done because Apple had to

31:27

for the market. Maybe it was humorous.

31:29

I think it's absolutely the market, because

31:31

I think that it is, because the

31:34

market, but the market is not. The

31:36

issue is that you got things they

31:38

can talk about though like Apple Silicon

31:40

and yeah, everybody have so many and

31:42

the cameras in the iPhone There's so

31:44

many good things they can talk about

31:46

that are reasons people actually buy But

31:49

you have a bunch of analysts that

31:51

are asking you every meeting. What are

31:53

you doing about AI? What are you

31:55

doing about AI? And then you have

31:57

this little echo chamber of people who

31:59

say well Apple doesn't have a solution

32:01

for this and then you have then

32:04

you have the idiots who are the

32:06

stock brokers who don't know really anything

32:08

about anything. They just kind of listen

32:10

to the analysts and they sit there

32:12

and buy and sell and everything else.

32:14

But the problem is, is that you

32:17

talk to any employee who works at

32:19

a company with lots of stock options,

32:21

when the stocks hit a, you know,

32:23

start sliding, there's a huge morale problem.

32:25

And to me, you know, because that's

32:27

the cost of. It's not the stock,

32:29

the most important stockholders in a company

32:32

are the employees. You know, and they

32:34

are, and they have all of this,

32:36

they've taken lower salaries for higher stock

32:38

options, which works great as long as

32:40

it keeps going, but it's a bit

32:42

of a pawn. Well, I mean, everybody's

32:44

stock is going down right now, so

32:47

I mean, but Apple would have been

32:49

going down earlier. Apple might have been

32:51

more worried that people would start buying

32:53

Android phones because, I mean, all of

32:55

the things that they promote. in these

32:57

ads, a Google pixel nine can do,

32:59

right? Yeah, this is, this is, I

33:02

think, ultimately explained entirely by being a

33:04

defense against the potential future where AI

33:06

features are enough to make you not

33:08

buy an Apple product, right? And I

33:10

don't even think that, and this may

33:12

be part of the problem, I don't

33:14

even think that this is an effort

33:17

to make sure that Apple is a

33:19

leader. In AI enabled features, I think

33:21

it's literally a defensive move to say,

33:23

it kills us. I mean, the people

33:25

switching to AI PCs over Max, I

33:27

guess, is a little bit of a

33:30

problem, although the Mac is so open

33:32

in terms of software that it probably

33:34

doesn't matter. But on the iPhone, like

33:36

Apple's got, this is the downside of

33:38

it being so locked down is there

33:40

are apps on the iPhone. But if

33:42

you want it. interwoven with your operating

33:45

system, like that is the existential risk.

33:47

Maybe not this year, but like if

33:49

they don't start down the path, is

33:51

there a point where random consumer says,

33:53

well, I need to get a Samsung

33:55

or a Google phone because Apple doesn't

33:57

do whatever that thing is, that is

34:00

what I need to do with my

34:02

phone. That could kill, I mean, kill

34:04

half of their revenue if they, if,

34:06

so it's existential. So that's what they're

34:08

playing defense against. They are, they are

34:10

protecting their, their chief product. Yeah. John

34:12

Girard in our club to a discord

34:15

says, because of the Apple ads, my

34:17

sister and sister-in-law were asking about it

34:19

and wanting to upgrade their old iPhone

34:21

to take advantage of the AI. Before

34:23

that, all I'd heard was AI stealing

34:25

my data and I'll never use it.

34:28

So maybe Apple's not completely. misguided here.

34:30

They just got to deliver. That's ultimately,

34:32

you know, John could get mad about

34:34

the marketing and all those things, but I

34:36

think what he's really mad about and I

34:38

think that we all need to look at is

34:40

Apple has failed to deliver. That's what's

34:43

going on here is they failed

34:45

to deliver AI things when other

34:47

people were and they're behind their

34:49

image model isn't very good. The

34:51

you know they promised some features

34:53

that were going to differentiate them

34:55

and they they can't ship them

34:57

and that's the I think the

34:59

most troubling thing. The good news

35:01

is I think the events of

35:03

the last six months suggest that

35:05

AI models are more of a

35:07

commodity and that you know it's

35:10

not it's highly unlikely that somebody like

35:12

Google invents an AI thing that blows

35:14

everybody away that is not replicable by

35:16

literally every other company if they've got

35:18

enough time and money. And if that's

35:20

the case, that's an advantage for Apple

35:22

because it doesn't really matter that they're

35:25

behind because it's not something that's gonna

35:27

be the crown jewels that AI is

35:29

gonna be much more of a commodity

35:31

that's easy to generate. Well, and I think

35:33

that. It feels like they blinked. You

35:35

know, like, you feel like in a

35:37

lot of ways, you feel like Apple

35:39

is this giant ship that doesn't really

35:41

pay attention to anybody else and just

35:43

kind of plow, whether they do or

35:45

not. It just feels like they're just

35:47

always just, they're just making great products

35:49

and people, they're just happy that people

35:51

are showing up, that kind of thing.

35:53

And in this case, it just feels

35:55

like they're just making great

35:57

products, they're just making great.

35:59

first time that you've seen your

36:02

parents not drunk but a little

36:04

bit buzzed and they're a little

36:06

bit silly and it's like it's

36:08

like it's like you're used to

36:10

thinking wait a minute they never

36:12

like laugh and like just dance

36:14

in the middle of the kitchen

36:16

and have like a have an

36:18

egg fight in the middle in

36:20

the middle of the room what

36:22

is going on here so the

36:24

first time that Apple announces something

36:26

and doesn't and clearly can't deliver

36:28

it not only that but It's

36:30

you start to think about what

36:32

in Apple's corporate culture what in

36:34

their management system allowed them to

36:36

screw up this badly to be

36:38

able to say okay with if

36:40

there are conversations internally saying what

36:42

can we promise and not even

36:44

a fixed deadline but vaguely when

36:46

can we promise it and so

36:48

okay we feel as though we

36:51

can have this feature ready by

36:53

A lot of this stuff could

36:55

be ready in 2025, let's say.

36:57

What failure happened so that no,

36:59

they're not even close to it.

37:01

There is a, I think it

37:03

was a german's column this week,

37:05

was it? Where they, someone, or

37:07

somebody mentioned that there was sort

37:09

of a, let's all feel better

37:11

about the horrible week we had

37:13

meeting, all hands meeting at Siri,

37:15

in which one of the heads

37:17

of the project base was showing

37:19

off, here's some stuff that's actually

37:21

working, so that at least the

37:23

team can see. we haven't just

37:25

been sort of like rating the

37:27

vending machine here we actually have

37:29

some work done and there is

37:31

something we can build upon that's

37:33

pretty shocking that that's where they

37:35

are right now and so that's

37:37

i think that's why this causing

37:39

a lot of people to rethink

37:41

a lot of these things a

37:43

lot of their impressions of Apple

37:46

that were not Apple's responsibility as

37:48

I as I often say people

37:50

think of Apple as hey they're

37:52

two hippies in a garage and

37:54

hey wow they care about humanity

37:56

and no they are a 3.5

37:58

trillion dollar company they are as

38:00

dysfunctional as any other huge tech

38:02

company they are as selfish as

38:04

any other huge company. But they've

38:06

learned a lesson not to pre-

38:08

announce stuff. I mean that was

38:10

always their tradition is don't pre-

38:12

announce. Maybe they felt like they

38:14

had to. They have had to.

38:16

Besides putting out the press release

38:18

and the statement to John Gruber,

38:20

they also have had to modify

38:22

the Apple page about Siri. They've

38:24

added some fine print. to the

38:26

big paragraph that says, with all

38:28

new superpowers, Siri can assist you

38:30

like never before. This is still

38:32

on the Apple page. Awareness of

38:34

your personal context enables Siri to

38:36

help you in ways that are

38:39

unique to you, need to check

38:41

when your mom's flight is arriving,

38:43

and you need to check when

38:45

your mom's flight is arriving. Siri,

38:47

this is exactly, by the way,

38:49

what was in that Bella Ramsey

38:51

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38:53

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38:55

or compromising your privacy, and then

38:57

the future software update. So they,

38:59

I mean, that's not exactly saying

39:01

mea culpa. Maybe they should take

39:03

that whole paragraph out. It's what

39:05

I think, I think that this

39:07

is we, we sometimes or I

39:09

sometimes think that one of the

39:11

things I've often said about Apple

39:13

is that wow, unlike Google, unlike

39:15

Microsoft, and like a lot of

39:17

other companies where I'm so aware

39:19

of all of the internal fighting

39:21

and backbiting and undermining that happens

39:23

like, wow, Apple seems to act

39:25

with one. concerned mind. And that

39:27

could be overstated. What happened, this

39:29

debacle happened after a long series

39:32

of, I'm sure, very intense arguments

39:34

inside Cupertino about marketing, engineering, the

39:36

C suite, basically, and the right,

39:38

in this case, the people with

39:40

the right argument lost that argument

39:42

in a good healthy environment, which

39:44

I think Apple is, that means

39:46

that the next time that person

39:48

or that group or that one

39:50

makes that argument, they basically might

39:52

be listened to a little bit

39:54

harder. So hopefully, we won't see

39:56

another embarrassment like this. Let's take

39:58

a break. It's not really the

40:00

big story of the week, but

40:02

I couldn't resist. I just thought

40:04

it was fascinating. There is tea.

40:06

There was tea. to spill it.

40:08

Andy and Aacco, Alex, Lindsay, Jason,

40:10

Snell, Mac Break Weekly, continues in

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44:53

some good news. Apple executives believe

44:55

you will love the upcoming iOS

44:57

overhaul. What a relief. They're still

44:59

living down the last time where

45:01

they said that nobody wants this

45:04

and nobody's going to like our

45:06

stuff. It's a weird marketing choice.

45:08

I'm glad they're back on the

45:10

train now, on the wagon. You

45:12

may remember we talked last week.

45:14

Mark Herman reported IOS 19 is

45:16

going to be, quote, one of

45:19

the most dramatic software overhauls in

45:21

its history. And now Bloomberg reports

45:23

Apple executives are confident. Do you

45:25

think it was a phone call

45:27

where they called up and said,

45:29

I just want you to know

45:32

Mark, we're confident. You're gonna love

45:34

it. No users will love the

45:36

record, no attribution on deep background.

45:38

We think this is good. We

45:40

have learned from VisionOS that people

45:42

love round icons. They love them.

45:45

The redesign will span across Apple's

45:47

biggest platforms. It will, according to

45:49

German, look a little bit like

45:51

Vision OS. They'll adopt the design

45:53

principles introduced in Vision OS. By

45:55

the way, are we going to

45:58

get German on next week? Is

46:00

that... Is that true? Working on

46:02

it. We can ask him. Mark,

46:04

how do you know Apple executives

46:06

believe you should love the upcoming

46:08

overhaul? It's interesting that, obviously

46:11

Apple planted that, it's interesting that

46:13

Apple felt a need to plant

46:15

that. Well, who knows, but it's

46:17

I mean, I'm who we talked

46:19

a little bit about this last

46:21

week about how Iowa 7 was

46:23

the last huge overhaul of at

46:25

least the mobile OS and they

46:27

really had to walk a lot

46:29

of the direction that direction back

46:31

and make it a little bit

46:34

more productive. One thing that I've

46:36

been thinking of the last week

46:38

though is like, so there's, there's,

46:41

the rumors about. a folding phones,

46:43

folding Macbook, folding iPad are starting

46:46

to accelerate. What if as part

46:48

of this overhaul they're trying to

46:50

give MacOS a redesign to make

46:53

it a little bit more sense

46:55

if it had a touch interface?

46:57

Like if they were to create

47:00

a foldable Macbook that when unfolded

47:02

could be just a 16 inch tablet

47:04

that could be used in and of

47:07

itself. Yeah, it is if you think

47:09

about their stories about chips, right,

47:11

that every M chip that gets

47:13

generated, they know what. all the

47:15

systems are that are going to

47:17

use that chip. Like that's part

47:19

of their integrated model. There is

47:21

no way you would build a

47:23

next generation cross operating system design

47:25

language without anticipating your next few

47:27

years of products on the roadmap,

47:29

like if there's a touchscreen Macbook,

47:31

like maybe, because we've heard those

47:33

rumors, and it's like, well, of

47:35

course, that would be one of

47:37

the challenges that they would want to address

47:39

in doing a new design like this. German

47:42

also talks in his Sunday Power

47:45

On newsletter, which has become

47:47

a staple of this program. Four

47:49

new iPhones, including an iPhone 17

47:51

Air. Well, now that's not this

47:53

year, is it? Or is it?

47:55

No, that would be next year.

47:57

Next year. But he says this

47:59

year. There is going to be 17

48:02

heirs this year this fall. Oh, it

48:04

is this year. Oh, yeah, 17. Sorry,

48:06

I can't count. We have 16 now,

48:08

right? Okay. Thank you. The company will

48:11

roll at one entry level phone. Well,

48:13

I think they already did that, the

48:15

16e, right? Two high-end models. He means

48:18

the 17, the base model, 17, the

48:20

17, pro, Pro Max, and then a

48:22

17 heir. Okay, that all makes sense.

48:24

Right. Right. chatter that it might not

48:27

have ports. This might be the one.

48:29

Everybody's been talking about. German says no.

48:31

German says that they thought about. In

48:34

something that I looked in our notes,

48:36

Andy and I both twig too, where

48:38

he's like, they're afraid that the EU

48:41

will be angry at them for eliminating

48:43

USBC, which is stupid. And I'm sure

48:45

that that is not, that maybe German

48:47

source said that, but there's no way,

48:50

because there's a specific carve out. If

48:52

you have no ports, the EU doesn't

48:54

care that you don't have USBC. It's

48:57

only if you have. And as Jason

48:59

said, it is explicit that says that

49:01

if your device, if your phone does

49:03

not have any ports whatsoever, such as,

49:06

and it's charged only by wireless charges,

49:08

it is not affected by this. So

49:10

yeah, so I don't know where he

49:13

was going there. So this report did

49:15

not come from Mark Herman, the port-free

49:17

rumor. I don't know where it came

49:20

from. Let me see. I'm trying to

49:22

find it. Sunny Dixon. Sunny Dixon actually

49:24

shared some, he's a long time, he's

49:26

usually pretty reliable, especially when it comes

49:29

to things like the supply chain. He

49:31

showed the slugs, the dummies of the

49:33

first iPhone 17. Here's the four different

49:36

models. It has buttons. So these are

49:38

supposedly basically what the case manufacturers are

49:40

betting on the phone looks like. But

49:42

it really, but it really, well, who

49:45

know, it's unsourced, but it is, these

49:47

are products that are products that are.

49:49

that are commissioned by case manufacturers to

49:52

have a physical object that they can

49:54

put inside purported case. But it does

49:56

mean that what you have these large

49:59

companies that are putting lots and lots

50:01

of money on tooling, they would not

50:03

be. There would not be speculating on

50:05

what it looks like. They were based

50:08

on, they're based on designs that they

50:10

think are pretty good, or at least

50:12

good enough to get a head start

50:15

on. But it is, and unlike the

50:17

renders, and unlike the CAD files we've

50:19

been seeing beforehand, it is kind of

50:21

fun to see them as actual physical

50:24

objects, particularly stacked up next to each

50:26

other. I think that the camera bump

50:28

is probably going to be controversial for

50:31

some people, because it is such a

50:33

non- Such a detour for Apple's phone

50:35

design language, but it does open up

50:38

a lot of possibilities I think for

50:40

case design and for camera design The

50:42

new air will according to German have

50:44

the C1 modem that was in the

50:47

iPhone 16e Yeah, better battery life. We're

50:49

seeing that right more responsive data and

50:51

congested conditions, but the new M3 air

50:54

iPad do not have it, does not

50:56

have it, nor does the regular iPad

50:58

nothing nor the Mac book air. So,

51:00

although maybe this is a chance to

51:03

do a cellular Mac once they get

51:05

the internal modem working. I think the

51:07

one that surprised me was pro motion

51:10

because that is a thing that we've

51:12

talked about here how the table stakes

51:14

for phones are getting to the point

51:17

where apples lower refresh models look a

51:19

little bad. And German says that this

51:21

error, which is not a pro phone,

51:23

will still have pro motion. It will.

51:26

Yeah. That's what he says. And I

51:28

wonder, and honestly, I wonder if some

51:30

of it is actually power savings, which

51:33

seems weird because a higher refresh rate

51:35

would seem like it might be a

51:37

problem, but I believe those phones also,

51:39

those screens have the ability to ramp

51:42

down the frame. they're not in use

51:44

and if that's a if that's a

51:46

power saver sounds like a lot of

51:49

decisions were made because this is going

51:51

to be a thinner phone which means

51:53

the overall battery volume is less and

51:56

they're trying to keep he says they

51:58

will keep the battery level basically the

52:00

same as another models and that means

52:02

that they're finding every way they can

52:05

possibly save on power yeah then there's

52:07

this foldable phone that wouldn't be this

52:09

year to the year after he says

52:12

yeah That's interesting. And then... Next year,

52:14

he quote, had a piece last week

52:16

that was basically round, adding a couple

52:18

of details, but also rounding up all

52:21

of the information he thinks he's put

52:23

together with the past year. And so

52:25

one of the things that, one of

52:28

the highlights of his report and this

52:30

new report is that it is going

52:32

to be a premium phone. It's going

52:35

to cost like $2,000, $2,500, which makes

52:37

sense. I mean, that's what a folding

52:39

phone cost. panels aren't just not cheap.

52:41

And also, this is, we talked about

52:44

how Apple's machine is a machine that

52:46

makes profits based on selling high-end hardware

52:48

with a good markup. This is absolute

52:51

catnip for the iPhone product line. I

52:53

guess, I mean, I have like, I

52:55

was like negative interest, not even zero

52:57

interest in a foldable phone. Every person

53:00

I know that has bought a foldable

53:02

phone didn't buy a second one. Like

53:04

I, so far, like it just, their

53:07

next upgrade to the fold of a

53:09

phone was like a moment that they

53:11

had. And then it became so problematic

53:13

that it was, that they, I just

53:16

don't, it just seems, it seems, it

53:18

seems like. But this is the moment

53:20

where Apple says now it's worth doing,

53:23

right? And that's the question is, it's

53:25

easy to say, oh, you know when

53:27

he wants an iPod with a video,

53:30

right? It is, maybe this is the

53:32

moment, I mean, skepticism about this as

53:34

a use case. I don't know. Apple

53:36

has the good tablet and the OS

53:39

supports tablet apps really well. And by

53:41

all accounts, this seems to be. a

53:43

nice iPhone that unfolds into an iPad

53:46

mini. And that is an interesting use

53:48

case to me. That's super hard. Particularly

53:50

if it's thin, particularly when it's folded,

53:52

it's thin. And we've seen, like, Oppo,

53:55

I think Oppo, has a new phone

53:57

out that is, it is, when you

53:59

fold it, it's only marginally, marginally thicker

54:02

than an iPhone 16. And the only.

54:04

cost that app that iPhone fold users

54:06

might pay is they might not get

54:09

that really great array of cameras they

54:11

would get with the top of the

54:13

line iPhone 17 pro. It'd be more

54:15

like the air. Yeah. Yeah. I just

54:18

feel like I feel like I found

54:20

the transit or iPad is I don't

54:22

have I don't have let me make

54:25

it clear I don't have $2,000 let

54:27

alone $2,500 to spend on a phone

54:29

but if I were at another higher

54:31

level of of of of of money.

54:34

That would be very much in line

54:36

with mine. I do know some people

54:38

who are, I think Alex is right

54:41

that it's not a mainstream product partly

54:43

because of the price, but the progress

54:45

has been made since Samsung made their

54:48

first fold, which is a semi-disaster. The

54:50

ditch is no longer really noticeable. They're

54:52

a lot more reliable. They're a lot

54:54

more durable. They'll never be as durable

54:57

as a standard slab phone, but they're

54:59

a lot more durable as a standard

55:01

slab. Do you see a lot of

55:04

foldables out in the wild? Interesting. In

55:06

my, in my group. Yeah, I don't,

55:08

I don't, I have to say that

55:10

I have never seen someone on public

55:13

transportation or even just like out in

55:15

the Boston, on Boston, common using one.

55:17

But that doesn't mean, there's, there's a

55:20

reason why all these, every major, major,

55:22

major, major, has one. For me, this

55:24

is the other, going the other direction,

55:27

this is to make a smaller. form

55:29

factor that then folds out to a

55:31

normal size phone. There are a lot

55:33

of really cool, this is why I

55:36

love foldable displays, that there are so

55:38

many ways to change up the paradigm

55:40

that we've been stuck with for now

55:43

like 10, 15 years with phones and

55:45

for 20 or 30 years with laptops.

55:47

I love the idea that designers who

55:49

only have stuff in their sketchbooks that,

55:52

gosh, wouldn't be nice to be able

55:54

to do this sometime, can now actually

55:56

realize that there's an Android manufacturer that

55:59

I can't remember the name, but they,

56:01

like this is why, like Android and

56:03

Windows, this is one of the things

56:06

that are singularly wonderful about them. There

56:08

are so many manufacturers that there's room

56:10

to try out really weird things and

56:12

see if they fly. So this one

56:15

Android phone designer, not a major one,

56:17

that's decided to. a slab-style folding phone.

56:19

So it folds out into a regular-sized

56:22

phone, but make it fold twice so

56:24

that it folds into like a box

56:26

of tick-tack size sort of thing. And

56:28

I don't know if there's a market

56:31

for that, but I'm glad that someone

56:33

is trying to make it and see

56:35

if for the 1,000 people in the

56:38

world who are like, oh my God,

56:40

finally something that I can put into

56:42

a compact purse. are now have like

56:45

a smartphone that opens up that unfolds.

56:47

I love to say failures are just

56:49

as illustrative as successes because here's what

56:51

we done we tried it people but

56:54

here's what people the people who liked

56:56

it liked this part of it we

56:58

will carry this over into the next

57:01

design and try again. I watched last

57:03

night I was just because I wanted

57:05

to catch up on 2013's vision of

57:07

AI I watched her again and he

57:10

has a little really little phone that

57:12

opens that opens up that opens up

57:14

that opens up that opens up that

57:17

opens up that opens up that that

57:19

he carries around in his pocket. See,

57:21

that's an idea that I wish that

57:24

people hadn't given up on. I love

57:26

the idea of two screens separated by

57:28

a mechanical hinge because Damn, I mean,

57:30

it's obviously if people have a problem

57:33

with a ditch, they're not going to

57:35

like a gap that's an actual hinge.

57:37

But the idea of so many different

57:40

applications where you're reading or consuming media

57:42

where left page and right page are

57:44

absolutely a working paradigm, so many use

57:46

cases where I want to have my

57:49

email app open on the left page,

57:51

I want to have a notes taking

57:53

app or a calendar app open in

57:56

the right page, or even just the

57:58

ability to fold it like a traditional

58:00

laptop that has. as a 180 degree

58:03

or 360 degree screen. I want to

58:05

be able to fold it back up

58:07

back part of itself and basically have

58:09

it as an easel so I can

58:12

be watching videos while I'm having lunch.

58:14

I really wish they hadn't given up

58:16

on that quite so quickly because that's

58:19

one of my favorite form factors. I

58:21

thought there's a lot of potential

58:23

there. Another thing German points out

58:25

is this week, the Apple 100

58:27

off site. Now, Gruber said that

58:29

Steve, remember, brought the mobile me

58:31

group together in the auditorium and

58:34

said, you guys, you're ruining our

58:36

reputation, etc. I just wonder if

58:38

maybe when they all go to

58:40

the, and they're sitting at the

58:42

giant tea cups or something at

58:44

Disneyland, if they don't have a

58:47

little, if Tim Cook just doesn't

58:49

say something to him. German doesn't

58:51

think so because there's enough responsibility

58:53

for the AI failure to go

58:56

around. He says the company's marketing

58:58

heads, Jaws, and Bob Borchers are

59:00

ultimately responsible. But then there's Tormiron's

59:03

marketing communications team which made the

59:05

TV ads. They earlier this year

59:07

made the squish ad. Craig Fedaregi

59:10

that couldn't integrate the features in

59:12

the compelling fashion. Of course, John Jen

59:14

Andrea, who gets all the heat because

59:17

he's bleeding the AI group. The

59:19

product managers and of course cook

59:21

so he says given the nature

59:23

of the collective failure You're all

59:25

fired We're gonna start over and

59:27

put somebody else in charge anyway.

59:30

I wonder where they're going. Do

59:32

you know where they're going anybody?

59:34

Just be fun to see how did

59:36

Apple executives all at that Disney World

59:38

thought I don't know No, I get

59:40

to sit in the front seat in

59:42

the millionaire falcon. No, I get to

59:44

see the front seat in the millennial

59:46

falcon. Sleepy, slapy, slapy, slap. I think

59:48

this one might be more like esselin.

59:50

You know, they need to. Yeah. They're

59:52

gonna really need to think here. Sit.

59:54

Yeah. A lot of whiteboard activity and

59:56

bean bags involved. Yeah. What shall we

59:58

do about the working? class, I tire

1:00:01

of their petty claims for compensation

1:00:03

for the work that they have.

1:00:05

If you're gonna do that, you

1:00:08

gotta go up to the Redwoods

1:00:10

at the Mehemian Grove. If you

1:00:12

really wanna plan to take over

1:00:14

the world. Actually, next, intelligent machines

1:00:17

tomorrow, we have the executive of

1:00:19

the Future of Humans Institute, who

1:00:21

is a very respected physicist at

1:00:23

UCSC and AI expert. This is

1:00:26

the group that put out that

1:00:28

letter to pause AI for six

1:00:30

months. They're really concerned about super

1:00:33

intelligence. Like, they think it's an

1:00:35

extinction event for humans. So this

1:00:37

should be interesting tomorrow. You may

1:00:39

be happy that Apple AI is

1:00:42

just making little emogies. Doesn't really

1:00:44

want to take over the world

1:00:46

or anything. So I'm actually really

1:00:49

looking forward to hearing what's the

1:00:51

worst that can happen. And the

1:00:53

good news, iPhone owners won't even

1:00:55

know what's happening. All right, we're

1:00:58

to take a little break. Future

1:01:00

of Life Institute, thank you. F-O-L-I,

1:01:02

Folly. Yeah, they probably don't use

1:01:04

that acronym. Should be fine. Anthony

1:01:07

Aguirre will be joining us tomorrow

1:01:09

on intelligent machines. Thank you, Anthony.

1:01:11

Our show today brought to you.

1:01:14

We'll have more with Mac Break

1:01:16

weekly and just a bit, including

1:01:18

a fabulous Vision Pro segment. We're

1:01:20

gonna rock out rock out and

1:01:23

term isn't pro goats shall be

1:01:25

eggs in night This episode of

1:01:27

Mac break weekly brought to you

1:01:30

by Zscaler the leader in cloud

1:01:32

security Did I ever tell you

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James Hetfield said I have a

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1:01:43

billions of dollars on firewalls and

1:01:45

VPNs. How's that working out for

1:01:48

y'all? Well, breaches continue to rise

1:01:50

by an 18% year over year

1:01:52

increase in ransomware attacks. $75 million.

1:01:55

record payout last year. So I

1:01:57

guess those perimeter defenses really aren't

1:01:59

aren't working as you'd hoped. Traditional

1:02:01

security tools actually expand your attack

1:02:04

surface with public facing IPs. That's

1:02:06

something that bad guys can hang

1:02:08

their hat on and more easily

1:02:11

than ever with AI tools. They're

1:02:13

really getting clever. If you listen

1:02:15

to security now, they have some.

1:02:17

It's amazing what they're doing. And

1:02:20

they struggle. We had a story.

1:02:22

It was fascinating. Last week Steve

1:02:24

was talking about a hacker gang

1:02:26

that got in through a VPN,

1:02:29

you know, and they browsed around

1:02:31

and they couldn't, they couldn't set

1:02:33

off their ransomware bombs. So they

1:02:36

found a camera, a security camera

1:02:38

that was running Linux and they

1:02:40

were able to hack that. And

1:02:42

they actually ran the ransom, they

1:02:45

ran the whole thing from the

1:02:47

software in the camera. And all

1:02:49

of this is because AI makes

1:02:51

it easier, right? And then of

1:02:54

course, this was the problem. Once

1:02:56

people get in, they get through

1:02:58

those permanent offenses, most security just

1:03:01

assumes, well, anybody inside the network

1:03:03

is good. They're an employee. So

1:03:05

what do bad guys do? They

1:03:07

can go anywhere inside the network.

1:03:10

They look for things like those

1:03:12

cameras to attack. They look for

1:03:14

where you back stuff out up.

1:03:17

And they also start exfiltrating embarrassing

1:03:19

information, customer information, emails, that kind

1:03:21

of thing. And of course. Your

1:03:23

primitive defensive struggle to inspect that

1:03:26

encrypted traffic at scale. So it's

1:03:28

easy for them to leak that

1:03:30

out. Here's the bottom line. Hackers

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1:04:50

Let's do the Vision Pro segment

1:04:52

now. What do you see? What

1:04:54

do you know? It's time to

1:04:57

talk the Vision Pro. A little

1:04:59

headbanging from Jason Snell. You've been

1:05:01

watching that Metallica Vision Pro. Sorry,

1:05:04

I've watched it a couple times

1:05:06

about it. The band is very

1:05:08

happy with the Vision Pro Metallica

1:05:10

concert. Sits on the front edge

1:05:13

of a lot of the stuff.

1:05:15

I mean, if you say there's

1:05:17

a new technology, Metallica, where do

1:05:20

we sign up? Yeah, which is

1:05:22

great. Yeah, so you've watched it,

1:05:24

anybody? Yeah, watched it a couple

1:05:26

times. For an apple immersive it's

1:05:29

long. I thought it was the

1:05:31

whole concert. Three songs. Okay. But

1:05:33

for an apple immersive it's longer.

1:05:35

I think it's like 20 minutes,

1:05:38

half an hour, I mean it's

1:05:40

like 22. And it's a doc,

1:05:42

it's not just the performances, it

1:05:45

has the performances, but it has

1:05:47

the thing where they like, also

1:05:49

you see them behind the scenes

1:05:51

and you hear them talking between

1:05:54

the songs and before the songs.

1:05:56

And that's good. I'm as always

1:05:58

super curious what Alex thinks about

1:06:01

this, but I'll just say it

1:06:03

simultaneously reinforced in me just how

1:06:05

amazing this technology is. and that

1:06:07

Apple is still trying to over-produce

1:06:10

it. I felt like, I don't

1:06:12

want to sound like an old

1:06:14

man here, and I know Ben

1:06:16

Thompson, this protector, was like, they

1:06:19

should just have one camera angle

1:06:21

for the whole concert, which no,

1:06:23

no, no, no, no, no. But

1:06:26

if I had to say, there's

1:06:28

a tempo that you want, where

1:06:30

it's like, cut, cut, cut, and

1:06:32

the tempo is I'd say twice

1:06:35

as fast as it should be.

1:06:37

a cut and I'm looking at

1:06:39

nothing and I have to go

1:06:42

find the person again. And that

1:06:44

happens in immersive, but the solution

1:06:46

is you've got to cut less.

1:06:48

It doesn't mean you can't cut,

1:06:51

it doesn't mean you can't use

1:06:53

other cameras. It's really effective. There

1:06:55

are some amazing moments. The highlight

1:06:57

of the whole show is when

1:07:00

they come down to the front

1:07:02

of the stage and are singing

1:07:04

with the fans in the front

1:07:07

row. And as he walks away,

1:07:09

as he walks away. it's the

1:07:11

camera stays on the fans who

1:07:13

completely lose it and start crying

1:07:16

and are hugging each other because

1:07:18

they can't believe the moment they've

1:07:20

just had and you get to

1:07:22

witness it and you couldn't do

1:07:25

that plus they're on a giant

1:07:27

stage where they're often there are

1:07:29

like 50 yards apart from each

1:07:32

other so you really couldn't do

1:07:34

it as a single camera but

1:07:36

I do think and it really

1:07:38

is amazing but I think they

1:07:41

are still producing it too much

1:07:43

I think that there need to

1:07:45

be fewer cuts it needs to

1:07:48

feel like you're immersed in a

1:07:50

way that you can if it's

1:07:52

cutting every five seconds. Filmed in

1:07:54

Mexico City during the sold-out second-year

1:07:57

finale of their M72 World Tour.

1:07:59

Apple built a custom... layout featuring

1:08:01

14 Apple immersive video cameras using

1:08:03

to make stabilized cameras cable

1:08:06

suspended cameras remote control camera dolly systems

1:08:08

and you see them in the video

1:08:10

I guess how could you not see

1:08:12

them right if you have that many

1:08:14

yeah what do you think yeah what

1:08:16

do you think Alex did they cut

1:08:19

too rapidly yeah I mean one of the

1:08:21

things I thought about watching it I

1:08:23

watched it a couple times just to

1:08:25

kind of watch it the first time

1:08:28

you start analyzing things and And I've

1:08:30

streamed Metallica and I've also and I

1:08:32

also went to see Metallica's Fathom event

1:08:35

which was on in theaters. So I've

1:08:37

seen a lot of different versions of

1:08:39

this specific band and I think that

1:08:42

one of the things I really realize

1:08:44

there's this collision going on with

1:08:46

the current products that are going out

1:08:48

is is this is the Apple Vision

1:08:51

Pro a new film medium or is

1:08:53

it an experienced platform? and I think

1:08:55

you got to decide when you make

1:08:57

something, whether you're trying to give someone

1:08:59

an experience of being there, or whether

1:09:01

you're giving them a 180 degree film.

1:09:03

That's Ben Thompson's complaint. He said, at

1:09:06

no point did I feel like I

1:09:08

was at the concert. Yeah, and but

1:09:10

there were parts of it that, you

1:09:12

know, so there were... It was a

1:09:14

documentary. And what I will say is some of

1:09:16

the best concert experience that I've, and I

1:09:18

do a lot of this, the best I've

1:09:20

ever seen. Like, like it is really... even

1:09:22

at its you know rough edges i mean

1:09:24

and and many of the other apple releases

1:09:27

in hundred eighty degrees i have been very

1:09:29

negative about like i just felt like they

1:09:31

shouldn't even release them you know the art

1:09:33

the concert for one the weekend the like

1:09:35

all those i just thought were horrible uh...

1:09:37

but uh... this is the first one i

1:09:39

was like wow this is really good now

1:09:41

there's a bunch of things i don't like

1:09:43

but this one's really this one was like

1:09:45

really enjoyable and really impressive there's moments there's a

1:09:47

whole bunch of moments that I wouldn't do and

1:09:49

I still wouldn't do and then there were some

1:09:51

moments that I wouldn't do that I was like

1:09:54

oh that was pretty good idea like so there's

1:09:56

a there's a trucking shot at the beginning behind

1:09:58

James as it goes under the And moving a

1:10:00

camera like that in 180 degrees is not

1:10:03

something we normally do. And it works so

1:10:05

well. Like it is just magical. Like you

1:10:07

know, and I was like, I'm writing that

1:10:09

down. We're going to do that more often.

1:10:12

The almost every crowd shot could have been

1:10:14

cut out as far as I'm concerned. I

1:10:16

hated the crowd shots. The one that James,

1:10:19

that Jason was talking about. is an exception

1:10:21

to that because he was there and then

1:10:23

he walks away but these random like cut

1:10:25

to the crowd many of them were way

1:10:28

too close and most of them were superfluous

1:10:30

in my opinion the wide shots yeah sure

1:10:32

maybe one but they did it too often

1:10:34

because who cares and then the shot with

1:10:37

Lars by his drum set was just two

1:10:39

feet too close. I know why they did

1:10:41

it. They needed to put the camera on

1:10:44

the so close on the riser rig, but

1:10:46

the problem was is it just wasn't quite

1:10:48

right. Nobody wants to be that close to

1:10:50

Lars. Any drummer? There's a couple shots that

1:10:53

they forced you to look up and the

1:10:55

and the the convergence doesn't work when you

1:10:57

look up. So when you so when you

1:10:59

look up it makes your eyes cross just

1:11:02

a little bit because it's not quite, you

1:11:04

don't want to. you don't want to put

1:11:06

a 180 degree lens there. And so you

1:11:09

always want people to kind of have this

1:11:11

circle there. They did these black and whites

1:11:13

that are not 180 degrees. They're 3D that

1:11:15

were kind of faked into 180 degrees. And

1:11:18

as a result, they're really big in front

1:11:20

of you. And it was too close, the

1:11:22

black and white ones of each person. But

1:11:24

one thing that they did there that I

1:11:27

thought was really cool is they had a

1:11:29

much softer mat on the edges that kind

1:11:31

of just faded. and I'm going to use

1:11:34

that all the time. Like I realize that

1:11:36

there was something that instead of having this

1:11:38

hard mat that's like a three or four

1:11:40

maybe five degree mat that sits on the

1:11:43

edge when you look over and you see

1:11:45

this black line where the one of the

1:11:47

ends, I kind of like this idea of

1:11:49

an iris that has this slow, you know,

1:11:52

fade out, you know, that I didn't, hadn't

1:11:54

seen before, I've never done it and haven't

1:11:56

seen it before. I was like, I love

1:11:59

that, love, because you don't know when to

1:12:01

stop looking over to the side because it

1:12:03

just kind of disappears to the side. Beautiful

1:12:05

presentation there. The shots where James is like

1:12:08

singing to the, or some of the other

1:12:10

ones are singing to the audience and the

1:12:12

audience is reaching out towards them. It's a

1:12:14

great 3D moment. You get this really, you

1:12:17

get the geometry. But it also felt the

1:12:19

wide shots all feel soft. Most of them

1:12:21

felt a little soft. I didn't really feel

1:12:24

like I was looking at 8K per I.

1:12:26

I don't think I was. I think it

1:12:28

was more like 4K per I, maybe 6K

1:12:30

per I, but it wasn't the full resolution

1:12:33

that that I think that the headset's capable

1:12:35

of. But overall, I guess I would say

1:12:37

it was a pretty exciting experience that that

1:12:39

as someone who owns the headset, you just

1:12:42

feel like, oh, I can see this isn't,

1:12:44

you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't,

1:12:46

you know, this is, you know, this, this

1:12:49

is, you know, you know, you know, this,

1:12:51

you know, this, this, this, this, this is,

1:12:53

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

1:12:55

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

1:12:58

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

1:13:00

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

1:13:02

I, I, I And so it's a great

1:13:04

step forward. There's still a ton of room

1:13:07

to grow for everyone. I cannot wait for

1:13:09

the new camera to come out and people

1:13:11

to experiment because I will say to back

1:13:14

to what was what was mentioned about. It

1:13:16

should be a single camera. You know, the

1:13:18

stage that we used to use in 3210,

1:13:20

which was the old island stage, Metallica actually

1:13:23

rehearsed there, you know, for their tours. And

1:13:25

I was like, man, if you took them

1:13:27

and put them in the old stage they

1:13:29

rehearsed in, lit it up and put it

1:13:32

up and put a camera in, put a

1:13:34

camera in, put a camera in, put a

1:13:36

camera in there. uh... you know with some

1:13:39

you know what some mild effects and so

1:13:41

on so forth i may enjoy that more

1:13:43

you know that to feel like they're doing

1:13:45

a concert for me uh... there rather than

1:13:48

bouncing around the stage well it's it's what

1:13:50

what is the concert right this concert is

1:13:52

a stadium concert right so you you wouldn't

1:13:54

shoot a stadium concert the same way you'd

1:13:57

shoot at a at a different kind of

1:13:59

venue and it and it was additionally challenging

1:14:01

i agree with you about the about the

1:14:04

fan shots so there there there are It's

1:14:06

just one of those. I actually wonder how

1:14:08

much of this was Metallica and how much

1:14:10

of it was Apple because I wonder if

1:14:13

Metallica wanted it to feel a little more

1:14:15

like a concert film, but there were way,

1:14:17

and I praised that moment where they sing

1:14:19

with the fans and all that, but like,

1:14:22

there are way too many moments where I

1:14:24

am really, really getting into the fact that

1:14:26

the musicians are playing and performing, and suddenly

1:14:29

I gotta spend 10 seconds watching a bunch

1:14:31

of people bounce around in the front row,

1:14:33

and I don't care. I see them from

1:14:35

the back in the crane shots, I don't

1:14:38

need to, right? Like weird decisions. And some

1:14:40

of those are practical decisions that they don't

1:14:42

have a shot. Yeah, they got a cover.

1:14:44

I get it. They're covering their paper in

1:14:47

over something. The biggest paper over of the

1:14:49

whole thing was during enter the Sandman, they

1:14:51

never went. They never went to Kirk. Kirk

1:14:54

is doing a solo and they never go

1:14:56

to him and they can't that you could

1:14:58

tell it was the ball. I watched it.

1:15:00

They have these bouncing balls that they dropped.

1:15:03

It was covering the other little. Each ball

1:15:05

was. Yeah, so they went to the cable

1:15:07

cam and it was pulled back from the

1:15:09

drummer and it wasn't. Yeah, you could you

1:15:12

could see it. But it's good. I mean,

1:15:14

I agree 100% Alex. This is really great.

1:15:16

It is one of the best things that

1:15:19

they've done. And yet I had that moment

1:15:21

where I'm like yeah. you're getting there but

1:15:23

this is not the end product like it's

1:15:25

just not it's just a little like they're

1:15:28

finding their way and I agree in a

1:15:30

different space where they're not I mean literally

1:15:32

at one point they are all like 50

1:15:34

yards apart from each other on this giant

1:15:37

stage and what what do you do with

1:15:39

that where you can't see the band they're

1:15:41

playing to the giant stadium audience and that's

1:15:44

great but like you for this it's it's

1:15:46

actually kind of the wrong experience for that

1:15:48

so but it's great. Meta has meta has

1:15:50

run up against these rocks for years with

1:15:53

with the Quest and their streaming concerts is

1:15:55

that you know you go to a stadium

1:15:57

because it's really hard to get a band

1:15:59

to put all the energy and time and

1:16:02

effort and money into something that is only

1:16:04

going to be played. It's really expensive because

1:16:06

you got to pay them for what they

1:16:09

would have made that stadium generated eight million

1:16:11

dollars or ten million dollars for the band.

1:16:13

Does Apple really want to pay? them $8

1:16:15

million to play in a warehouse. You know,

1:16:18

and so it's hard to get bands to,

1:16:20

you know, if you want all the effects,

1:16:22

it's hard to get the bands to do

1:16:24

that. Is there a time in the future

1:16:27

though when this becomes less expensive and these

1:16:29

headsets become more ubiquitous where bands will do

1:16:31

this instead of touring or that? concert goers

1:16:34

will do this instead of spending a lot

1:16:36

of money in time. Well, I think, I

1:16:38

think, I mean, obviously, I mean, I'm working

1:16:40

on a project for that. So, yeah, but

1:16:43

into theaters, so, so the, oh yeah, you

1:16:45

want to move them to theaters though, not,

1:16:47

not headsets. The advantage of that is mostly

1:16:49

that they're around each other, they're around 300

1:16:52

other people singing, where we build. Someone's going

1:16:54

to build a studio that's designed for the

1:16:56

headset. You know, and it's going to be

1:16:59

kind of the Austin City limits, Tiny Desk,

1:17:01

W-E-X. That would be smart. You know, like

1:17:03

W-E-X-P, is that right? The one in, out

1:17:05

of, what, sorry? K-E-X-P, yeah, in Seattle. Like,

1:17:08

they all have these sets where bands come

1:17:10

in, you're not changing the set every time,

1:17:12

you're not on tour, you're not on tour,

1:17:14

like for instance, I would be super excited

1:17:17

to see Tiny Desk put a 180 degree

1:17:19

camera. Like that would be an incredible experience,

1:17:21

you know, to see that. So those are

1:17:24

the kind of things, those little spaces, I

1:17:26

think we could, we'll see more of that.

1:17:28

Like Tiny Desk doing that would cost almost

1:17:30

nothing, because they already got the ban. You

1:17:33

think it was so? In this, you know,

1:17:35

in the chat room we're talking about this

1:17:37

too, like concerts are special, going to them

1:17:39

is special. They're also one time only and

1:17:42

maybe not in your town and very expensive

1:17:44

and we can say well the Vision Pro

1:17:46

is very expensive. Yes it is although maybe

1:17:49

in the long run these kinds of devices

1:17:51

will be less expensive but it doesn't matter

1:17:53

if you've got the money even if they

1:17:55

don't come to your town and you can't

1:17:58

afford to travel whether it's money or because

1:18:00

your family or whatever like there are lots

1:18:02

of reasons where you miss a great concert.

1:18:04

And then I would say even for the

1:18:07

artists, a little like live theater, which we've

1:18:09

also talked about in terms of the Vision

1:18:11

Pro, like they are ephemeral once the experience

1:18:14

is over, it's over forever. And I think

1:18:16

there's, if I was an artist, I'd think,

1:18:18

wait a second. I'm going to still do

1:18:20

all my dates, but I also want a

1:18:23

product that I can sell after the fact

1:18:25

to all the people who couldn't come because

1:18:27

all the seats were full or because we

1:18:29

weren't in their town or because we had

1:18:32

to cancel or whatever the reason they couldn't

1:18:34

make it. And I can sell them that

1:18:36

experience. That gives me another product that's not

1:18:39

the same as a live product, but it's

1:18:41

something that's better than... you know our other

1:18:43

ancillary like just the audio or just a

1:18:45

concert film on prime video or something like

1:18:48

that. Yeah I mean the I mean Taylor

1:18:50

Swift obviously and Beyonce blew that door right

1:18:52

wide open where people are you know it

1:18:54

doesn't I talk to a friend whose whose

1:18:57

wife and daughter went to see the film

1:18:59

went to see the film of it a

1:19:01

week before they went to see it live

1:19:04

it didn't matter to them like they had

1:19:06

tickets they want tickets to all the things

1:19:08

to all the things right? Sure. And so

1:19:10

I think that those different experiences are going

1:19:13

to theatrical experiences will be interesting but again

1:19:15

that they have the same challenge Fathom has

1:19:17

had the same challenge that Apple has which

1:19:19

is that you're shooting like concert films like

1:19:22

people there's thousands of people and that subtly

1:19:24

tells you you're not there because there's you

1:19:26

know the advantage of building a set without

1:19:29

seeing a lot of other people is it

1:19:31

feels like this is a concert for you.

1:19:33

You know, and so I think that that's

1:19:35

going to be the interesting thing that I

1:19:38

think Apple's going to be able to take

1:19:40

advantage of. We're already talking to venues, like

1:19:42

I'm just waiting for that camera to drop.

1:19:44

Like so of which venues do we put

1:19:47

the camera into and using like the sound

1:19:49

checks at first just to capture two or

1:19:51

three songs that you know for people to

1:19:54

experience. So I think that a lot of

1:19:56

us are, you know, super excited to see

1:19:58

and what's great about it. were months away,

1:20:00

two or three months away from having a

1:20:03

camera. that isn't a science project. This has

1:20:05

been, this whole system has been junked up

1:20:07

by either low resolution, low frame rate, or

1:20:09

really complicated. Those are the, those, and they've

1:20:12

been huge bottlenecks. And regardless of, I mean,

1:20:14

people think that 30, you know, $30,000 is

1:20:16

a lot for a camera, but the reality

1:20:19

is, is that that from a production camera

1:20:21

perspective, it's $1,000, $1,000, $1,000, $1,000, $1,000,000, $1,000,

1:20:23

$1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 you know you can go out and

1:20:25

shoot with often and I think we're going

1:20:28

to see an explosion of experiments that a

1:20:30

lot of them won't work but I think a

1:20:32

lot of them will and again I don't think

1:20:34

that they exist without the headset we talk about

1:20:36

the expense of the headset an 8k

1:20:38

per I 90 frame per second headset

1:20:41

is what drives 8k per I 90

1:20:43

frame per second footage you know and

1:20:45

I think that that's the thing that

1:20:47

that that we're we're it's going to

1:20:49

be really interesting it's going to be

1:20:51

interesting summer Metallica's new bassist Robert Trujillo

1:20:53

knew for the last week new I

1:20:56

think of him as the new bassist

1:20:58

too I still think of his new

1:21:00

bassist although I love him he Hollywood

1:21:02

Porter had an interview with him he

1:21:04

said when the band first saw it

1:21:06

he said it was it was

1:21:09

very real James he said was

1:21:11

was like playing the drums as

1:21:13

he's watching himself singing Trujillo says

1:21:16

I found myself riffing and playing air guitar

1:21:18

too. It's almost impulsive. That's what I think

1:21:20

the reaction would be for anybody who watches

1:21:22

it. Even people who have never seen Metallica

1:21:24

or aren't familiar. It's hard not to get

1:21:26

into pulled into the performance. He says it's

1:21:28

a very physical experience in a

1:21:31

lot of ways. I would have loved

1:21:33

to have this when I was a

1:21:35

kid in the 70s and hammered with

1:21:37

bands like Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin.

1:21:39

Imagine seeing Jimmy Hendricks playing Jimi Hendrix

1:21:41

playing guitar having him right in front

1:21:43

of you. So I think he's probably

1:21:45

right. This might be a new way

1:21:47

to experience music that isn't a concert

1:21:49

that is a performance, but something else.

1:21:51

He also snuck up behind a

1:21:53

couple who were getting a demo

1:21:56

at the Apple store in Hollywood.

1:21:58

We're watching the concert. they took

1:22:00

off the headset and there he is

1:22:02

in person, which must have been kind

1:22:05

of scary. I hope I could almost

1:22:07

smell the basis. I smell I smell

1:22:09

him. So I think pretty cool. I

1:22:11

mean I've been totally with you Alex.

1:22:13

It's like I'm gonna get a lot

1:22:16

more excited about these kind of experiences

1:22:18

once it makes that leap of like

1:22:20

what smartphones did for video where everybody

1:22:22

has a video camera, everybody has nonlinear

1:22:24

editing, everybody can shoot whatever they want

1:22:27

to and develop their own style and

1:22:29

basically serve whatever niche they want because

1:22:31

like as we're talking about like concert

1:22:33

footage, I'm also thinking about the way

1:22:35

that the Metropolitan Opera does their met

1:22:38

and HD broadcasts. And the way that

1:22:40

the number of times I've been like

1:22:42

in the orchestra seats at the Met

1:22:44

and I usually have binoculars with me

1:22:46

because that's a way if you can't

1:22:48

afford the $400 seats you can basically

1:22:51

upgrade your cheap like back of the

1:22:53

house seats with binoculars because there are

1:22:55

times where like I want to zoom

1:22:57

in I want to focus on like

1:22:59

what this character is singing right now

1:23:02

or even I want to see like

1:23:04

what the choristers are doing in the

1:23:06

background right now and the ability to

1:23:08

If these kind of events, be it

1:23:10

plays, be they concerts, be they opera,

1:23:13

were recorded in this fashion where I'm

1:23:15

just seated in the orchestra, there isn't

1:23:17

like a hundred camera angles, they're not,

1:23:19

like, choosing, they're not switching angles and

1:23:21

switching shots, like on the director's whim,

1:23:24

but I have the ability to essentially

1:23:26

keep looking around, I can change the

1:23:28

focal length of what I'm looking at,

1:23:30

so that if I do want to

1:23:32

see, like there's a scene in... Agropina

1:23:35

where this action is happening like at

1:23:37

the front of the stage but there's

1:23:39

a bar it's happening in a bar

1:23:41

like in the back of the stage

1:23:43

the they're called super numeraries or actors

1:23:46

there are people who don't have non-singing

1:23:48

parts for they got hold this scene

1:23:50

for like 15-20 minutes and they had

1:23:52

almost this entire you could tell them

1:23:54

during rehearsals they'd worked out this entire

1:23:57

storyline of okay this guy's drunk off

1:23:59

his butt this other woman is got

1:24:01

trying to it thinks it's amazing that

1:24:03

he got drunk so early they're taking

1:24:05

selfies with me he doesn't know and

1:24:08

it's like I'm so glad that it

1:24:10

met in HD, of course, was focusing

1:24:12

on the expensive tenor and the expensive

1:24:14

soprano who were singing at the front

1:24:16

of the stage, but I was so

1:24:19

loving this action happening in the back

1:24:21

and the ability to simply focus on

1:24:23

what catches your attention and what catches

1:24:25

your attention and what you really want

1:24:27

to look at. That I think is

1:24:30

going to be transformative and that's going

1:24:32

to really increase my level of interest

1:24:34

in this kind of presentation. Well, and

1:24:36

I think that we did some tests

1:24:38

with OZO's alone a long long time

1:24:41

ago. That could have been done. we

1:24:43

took a stage play and an off-Broadway

1:24:45

play and we just put you where

1:24:47

the best place to sit is for

1:24:49

that scene and so you just get

1:24:52

and but every scene we would change

1:24:54

where that was and so you would

1:24:56

just sit in the you know we

1:24:58

would kind of this is the place

1:25:00

the best place to be to watch

1:25:03

this unfold and we'd maybe moved it

1:25:05

a little bit and it was the

1:25:07

best play experience over here. like just

1:25:09

like I was like I can do

1:25:11

this all the time you know like

1:25:14

because it's it's it's it's still live

1:25:16

it has this feel like you're looking

1:25:18

around you're watching everybody it's not a

1:25:20

camera shot but but it's still happening

1:25:22

it feels like it's happening right in

1:25:25

front of you and that was at

1:25:27

a much lower resolution and a much

1:25:29

lower frame rate so I'm excited people

1:25:31

are going to figure the main character

1:25:33

is like can't quite see around a

1:25:36

door because someone who's kind of doing

1:25:38

something suspicious is making a phone call,

1:25:40

but the door to the room is

1:25:42

kind of half open. And if you

1:25:44

see this in the movie theater, like

1:25:47

when this scene happens, the entire audience

1:25:49

goes. They're trying to get around the

1:25:51

door. They're trying to see around the

1:25:53

door because it's like... That's the sort

1:25:55

of stuff that I think is going

1:25:58

to be pretty incredible once this stuff

1:26:00

lands. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that

1:26:02

one of the great things is that

1:26:04

Apple is... the kind of money it

1:26:06

takes to do some of these shows

1:26:09

so that we learn a lot. Like

1:26:11

I've learned stuff watching every Apple event,

1:26:13

every Apple release, these cost millions of

1:26:15

dollars. Like I don't know what, I

1:26:17

would have budgeted for that metallic issue,

1:26:20

my budget would have been somewhere between

1:26:22

two and three million dollars for the

1:26:24

shoot. I don't know what Apple spent,

1:26:26

but for that many cameras and what

1:26:28

it takes to do those in the

1:26:31

sky cams and the prep and the

1:26:33

prep and the. post and everything else.

1:26:35

It would have been at least that

1:26:37

much money. And so for Apple to

1:26:39

take those chances and do those allow

1:26:41

us to look at a bunch of

1:26:44

things that some of us agree that

1:26:46

they worked or didn't work, but it

1:26:48

doesn't matter. We never had the budget

1:26:50

to do that kind of thing. So

1:26:52

Apple doing, you know, taking some of

1:26:55

the hits here and and being part,

1:26:57

you know, showing us that stuff. And

1:26:59

again, there's in every Apple thing so

1:27:01

far, every Apple release I've seen a

1:27:03

ton of things that I wouldn't do.

1:27:06

but I've seen a couple things that

1:27:08

I never thought would be possible that

1:27:10

I go, oh, I'm definitely gonna, you

1:27:12

know, so I think that that is

1:27:14

exciting because they are investing in things

1:27:17

that we wouldn't, we wouldn't invest in

1:27:19

other ones, you know, that we wouldn't

1:27:21

have the money to do without somebody,

1:27:23

because the, again, the market is small

1:27:25

right now. But I think that it's

1:27:28

gonna be, so I think it's gonna

1:27:30

be really interesting to see. Well, that's

1:27:32

your Vision Pro segment, everybody. Now you

1:27:34

see, now you know, we're done talking,

1:27:36

the Vision Pro. Yeah. Whiplash won and

1:27:39

entered Sandman. That's a, that's a, that's

1:27:41

three good classics. Crowd, Pleaser. Sleep with

1:27:43

one I opened. Yeah. Okay, let's take

1:27:45

a break. You're watching Mac, break, weekly,

1:27:47

get it. We didn't

1:27:49

know this when we played it. We

1:27:52

didn't even have ads, but it turns

1:27:54

out we have to take breaks. Andy

1:27:56

and Anako, Alex Lindsay, and Jason Snell,

1:27:58

great to have all three. Is your

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1:29:12

me! What is the theory behind

1:29:15

Apple dropping? It's 23 million dollar

1:29:17

lawsuit against the recycler accused of

1:29:19

stealing iPhones. The theory, so this

1:29:21

was the. Kerfuffle that happened a

1:29:23

few years ago were when their

1:29:25

cycles was found to be sort

1:29:28

of holding on to a certain

1:29:30

recycled Apple watches and a lot

1:29:32

of these devices were fine. They

1:29:34

were supposed to take them apart.

1:29:36

Right, exactly. It's supposed to destroy

1:29:39

them about a hundred thousand devices

1:29:41

did not get destroyed. They sold

1:29:43

them on instead. Yeah, and so.

1:29:45

There was a

1:29:47

lot of stuff

1:29:49

going on. So

1:29:52

this week, Apple

1:29:54

sued this disassembler,

1:29:56

but one day

1:29:58

before the court

1:30:00

was going to

1:30:03

dismiss the suit.

1:30:05

Anyway, for lack

1:30:07

of progress, Apple

1:30:09

decided to withdraw

1:30:11

it. And

1:30:13

the theories that I've been seeing are

1:30:16

that, number one, the discovery process on

1:30:18

this would have been not very productive

1:30:20

for Apple because they would have had

1:30:22

to talk about what they do to

1:30:24

phones, including the ones that they just

1:30:26

simply destroy that could be recycled and

1:30:28

sold on or given away or that

1:30:30

they don't want to reveal that they're

1:30:33

not in fact recycling them. Yeah, and

1:30:35

also doing it properly. Yes. And also

1:30:37

someone who's I'm afraid I don't have

1:30:39

their name. But by the way, that

1:30:41

is just that is just a gas.

1:30:43

That's pure speculation. We don't have another

1:30:45

speculation from someone who is in that

1:30:48

in the industry of recycling, basically said

1:30:50

that the purpose of that lawsuit wasn't

1:30:52

necessarily to win the lawsuit or to

1:30:54

punish this company, but to put the

1:30:56

fear of God into all the other

1:30:58

companies that Apple does business with. Yeah,

1:31:00

we if you screw up, we will

1:31:02

find out and we will make we

1:31:05

will we will end a very harmonious

1:31:07

relationship in much the same way that

1:31:09

multiple characters found out because auditors went

1:31:11

to the facility. They found Apple watches

1:31:13

being stored in a section that didn't

1:31:15

have any security cameras. Geep actually admitted

1:31:17

the accusations that said that it was

1:31:20

a rogue employee and it then sued

1:31:22

the rogue employee. So you know what

1:31:24

these kinds of things is complicated. I

1:31:26

can see why it might not be

1:31:28

anything suspicious. It might just be this

1:31:30

is a remember that every time we

1:31:32

get something juicy about what goes on

1:31:34

inside Apple, it's because they decided to

1:31:37

find a lawsuit. So yeah, that's right.

1:31:39

This is all of us, but probably

1:31:41

the right thing for Apple. Yeah, they

1:31:43

can be bad. So no, I don't

1:31:45

this really not an Apple story, but

1:31:47

I guess it's kind of peripheral to

1:31:49

Apple has decided not to do the

1:31:51

Pinewood streaming video player. This was going

1:31:54

to be something to compete directly with

1:31:56

Apple TV was going to launch this

1:31:58

year and it was going to do.

1:32:00

something that even Apple TV hasn't managed

1:32:02

to do which is kind of

1:32:04

unify all the different streaming platforms

1:32:06

into one easy to use interface

1:32:08

but Sonos probably wisely decided that maybe

1:32:11

they should get their app working first.

1:32:13

I don't I mean I don't even

1:32:15

know what shows on what channel

1:32:17

shows are on now I just like hit

1:32:20

the little thing on my on my Apple

1:32:22

TV controller and say this show. But that's

1:32:24

why you never see any Netflix shows

1:32:26

because it doesn't search Netflix. As

1:32:29

we talked about that, yeah. This

1:32:31

is a kind of move

1:32:33

you do as a company

1:32:35

when there are no other

1:32:37

worlds to conquer. You finally

1:32:39

control the entire premium audio,

1:32:41

digital space, really, people want

1:32:43

your hardware, they're paying a

1:32:45

premium, you make huge profits.

1:32:47

What could we do next?

1:32:49

Let's do a video player

1:32:51

too, right? I know so

1:32:53