0:00

It's time for Mac Break Weekly. Reassembled

0:02

for 2025, Andy, for 2025,

0:04

and Jason are all here.

0:06

We're going to celebrate a very

0:09

important birthday for Mac users. We'll

0:11

talk about Apple's for Mac users. We'll

0:13

talk They agree to nothing,

0:15

admit nothing, to and a couple

0:17

of new Vision Pro ideas.

0:19

All that coming up and

0:21

a whole lot more all

0:23

Mac Break Weekly. up, and a

0:25

whole lot more next

0:28

on Mac Break Weekly.

0:30

from People You Trust.

0:32

This is Tweet. This

0:34

is Mac Break Weekly,

0:36

episode This is

0:38

recorded Tuesday, January Tuesday,

0:40

January 7th,

0:43

2025. It's time for

0:45

Mac Break It's time

0:47

for Mac Break Weekly,

0:49

the show we

0:51

cover at the the latest

0:53

Apple News! With Mr. Jason

0:55

Snell of.com. Occasionally see his

0:57

stories at at I'll swear.

0:59

Happy New Year Happy New Year to you

1:01

Leo to So Happy Happy to New

1:03

Year to you and your

1:05

you and your in your brain and have

1:07

many visits this year to year

1:09

to Sky Harbor yeah, so many flights.

1:11

many great to have you. to

1:14

at home home today. I I hope you had

1:16

a wonderful holiday. holiday. Also

1:18

you Mr. Anacco you're celebrating

1:20

the, the... it's called if

1:22

it's called Little Christmas, is this

1:24

Little Boxing Day? boxing day. There should

1:26

be. did I use I use I use the I use a

1:28

use the, I use little Christmas.

1:30

as excuse to like have a

1:33

nice dinner, but actually a I have

1:35

an excuse to do some shopping.

1:37

Excellent. Thank you very much. excuse to

1:39

do you're not shopping excellent. in Boston

1:41

who celebrates Christmas not go from from office

1:43

hours who Mr. Alex

1:45

Lindsey. Happy new year, Alex. office hours

1:47

good to be here. global. Mr.

1:50

Alex, hello. Good to be here

1:52

2025 Welcome to the

1:54

Gulf of America. It does

1:56

feel does feel like

1:58

a yawning gulf,

2:01

doesn't it? doesn't it? Yes, we're

2:03

all in it. The maw of America.

2:05

That would be even better. Let's see,

2:08

so 1821, right? I feel like I

2:10

got an announcement. Is that not true?

2:12

Yeah, but when I see point something,

2:14

point something, I figure, okay, whatever it

2:17

is that they didn't have time to

2:19

fix for 18.2, they finally said, yeah,

2:21

that's enough of a bug to fix

2:23

it in point two, not enough of

2:26

a bug. to like fix it at

2:28

the time. So yeah, I didn't really

2:30

pay attention to it. I didn't pay

2:33

any attention to it. There it is.

2:35

We got it right there. I was

2:37

distracted. There was figgy pudding everywhere everywhere.

2:39

You know that stuff goes bad like

2:42

and you can't phrase it. So it's

2:44

like, you know. So this update provides

2:46

important bug fixes and is recommended for

2:48

all users and is half a gigabyte.

2:51

When are the days, when are the

2:53

days end where we would like pay

2:55

attention? to the size of files and

2:58

like the internet. You think that the

3:00

size of it has to do with

3:02

Apple intelligence that from now on there

3:04

just aren't going to be any compact

3:07

updates because they got to show a

3:09

new on- device model to you like

3:11

if they have to fix anything. You

3:13

know that makes sense. In fact we

3:16

did learn that the Apple intelligence is

3:18

doubled in size. Yeah 95 Max said

3:20

something about how they... It's seven gigabytes

3:23

for 18.2 versus four gigabytes for 18.1.

3:25

So that's how much Apple intelligence is

3:27

going to cost you for storage. That's

3:29

how much more intelligence it is. Well,

3:32

I'm doing the update now. I guess

3:34

it's for iOS and iPad OS. Do

3:36

we know anything? Presumably there's some security

3:38

stuff. Apple's never very open about what

3:41

kinds of security patches they're providing, right?

3:43

Because they don't want to give the

3:45

bad guys. Any hints. Well, no, don't

3:48

they usually do? There's a, isn't there

3:50

a page? That basically says, here's what

3:52

the, here's what the security update tells.

3:54

I feel like they don't really say

3:57

until later. Like, I don't know, maybe

3:59

I'm wrong. Let me look

4:01

and see what the security update is. This

4:03

update provides important bug fixes and is recommended

4:06

for all users. That's it. That's the one

4:08

I'm talking about. Yeah. You might have one

4:10

there. 18.2.1, IOS, an iPad, a bit of

4:12

a bit of a bit, yeah, it doesn't,

4:15

there's no CV yet. Yeah, that's an important.

4:17

Yeah. Clearly when they say you should update

4:19

it, that means there is something there. That's

4:21

I guess what I'm getting to is this

4:24

is for security as well whether they say

4:26

it or not. And just as a rule

4:28

there's never a reason not to download a

4:30

point something point something update because the main

4:33

the integer updates are always huge disruptive changes

4:35

even if everything worse properly the point something

4:37

changes can inflict new problems that you won't

4:39

you aren't prepared to deal with but the

4:42

point something point something is always okay we've

4:44

we've fixed something minor that we didn't have

4:46

time to do like three months ago and

4:48

so now here it is. What say you

4:51

to that Alex Lindsay? I know you have

4:53

a... Rule about point updates. I update I'm

4:55

pretty aggressive about my my mobiles Probably too

4:58

aggressive should be you know, but I'm pretty

5:00

so my mobile my iPads I just I'm

5:02

on the beta. I just upgrade whatever it

5:04

says upgrade on my on a handful of

5:07

my computers on my Mac minis I'm usually

5:09

upgrading to the newest released schedule So not

5:11

not betas, but but I'm doing those and

5:13

then for my main computer. I'm still I'm

5:16

usually a year behind you know, you know,

5:18

so And that has to do, it has

5:20

less to do with Apple. I mean, it

5:22

has something to do with Apple, but it

5:25

also has to do with, I use a

5:27

lot of software that takes a long time

5:29

to update. So things like Dont, Audenates Dante

5:31

is a good example of something that is

5:34

not still. It just might be just starting

5:36

to work right now. So, you know, because

5:38

there, and especially when you're dealing with loopback

5:40

or you're doing with anything that's digging deep

5:43

into the OS, there's more for them to

5:45

update and it and takes them a little

5:47

longer once they have it there and once

5:49

people are using it. I let, you know,

5:52

I stay back on my main, my main

5:54

production computer for typically a year. You know,

5:56

I might start thinking about it February, March,

5:58

but the other ones I'm pretty aggressive about

6:01

because I feel like I need to know

6:03

what's going on. And there's all this good

6:05

stuff. There's all this candy that's laying around

6:07

and I want, I want some of the

6:10

candy too. Not in this case. I think

6:12

it's, point ones I, I'm not too afraid

6:14

of. is not does not have any new

6:17

features so that's probably why it is a

6:19

bug fix right? Yeah but I think as

6:21

a bug fix the point ones I think

6:23

are oftentimes the most stable updates because they're

6:26

not trying all they're doing doing house cleaning

6:28

not doing any kind of adding features yeah

6:30

not anymore though now they're plowing in new

6:32

features and Apple intelligence yeah All sorts of

6:35

stuff like that. Again, like for my mobile

6:37

devices, I'm pretty like, yeah, whatever. Let's just

6:39

keep going. And with my, again, with my,

6:41

my Max Studio is the one that stays

6:44

way behind so that I can always have

6:46

something to go back to and get stuff

6:48

done. There are some 18-3 betas that are

6:50

cycling through. There were new ones that dropped

6:53

earlier today. those are so far quiet. I

6:55

don't know whether that's just going to be

6:57

a quiet cycle or whether there's going to

6:59

be another beta that gets released that adds

7:02

features in that aren't in there, but it

7:04

sounds like maybe 183 is being worked on

7:06

quietly and then there'll be an 184 that

7:08

will be out later. That will be the

7:11

one that has those kind of last remaining

7:13

Apple intelligence features. It's kind of unclear right

7:15

now, but they're still working in the background.

7:17

So the general, our general advice is update.

7:20

Good update, no noticeable problems. This, by the

7:22

way, yesterday was, I didn't note this, but

7:24

I will note it now, I didn't like

7:27

note it yesterday, like have a party or

7:29

anything, but it's the 25th anniversary of OS

7:31

10. Yeah, I mean, or at least. It's

7:33

the 2000 Macworld Expo where Steve Jobs unveiled

7:36

the Aqua interface and showed off what we

7:38

really think of. I mean I watched the

7:40

whole video, I wrote a piece about it

7:42

at Macworld. Actually technically I wrote a piece

7:45

about it at Macworld in the year 2000

7:47

and that's up there. You can read that.

7:49

You know later. I found the files on

7:51

my in an archive on my server and

7:54

I still have the word files that I

7:56

wrote it turns out I wrote that whole

7:58

story that day like I got went back

8:00

to the office I've still got the time

8:03

stamps on it from that day January 2000

8:05

and anyway I wrote a new story on

8:07

Macworld about it on Sunday and it's uh

8:09

it's quite a trip to watch that event

8:12

because I mean, there are so many anniversaries

8:14

of OS-10, because there's like when Ten-O shipped

8:16

and when the public bay the shipped and

8:18

when they brought Steve on stage in 1997

8:21

and when they brought him back in 1998

8:23

and he was there talking about the transition,

8:25

but like for me, this is the big

8:27

one, because so much of what he's demoing,

8:30

first off, people are reacting to it like

8:32

they've never seen anything like it. And yet

8:34

from the perspective of 25 years later, it

8:36

all seems totally normal. It did kind of

8:39

blow you away as a Mac user because

8:41

it was a completely new interface. But all

8:43

that stuff, I mean, keep in mind the

8:46

Mac was only 16 years old at that

8:48

point. And Steve Jobs even undersold it and

8:50

said, you know, this will be the foundation

8:52

of what we do for the next decade.

8:55

And it's like, well, okay, a quarter of

8:57

a century later, still so much of what

8:59

he showed is just what the Mac is

9:01

now. It really was a remarkable moment. So

9:04

if you need to celebrate a single kind

9:06

of birthday for OS 10. Yeah that's and

9:08

100% the significance of of OS 10. Remember

9:10

that OS 10 is the fount was. from

9:13

the very, very get-go, designed to be the

9:15

foundation of everything Apple does in the future.

9:17

So when it became time to do a

9:19

phone interface, there's OS-10, and now we've turned

9:22

that into iPhone OS, OS, OS, when it

9:24

time to an iPad became a version of

9:26

OS10, that was an iPad OS, everything is

9:28

now built on OS10. And also from the

9:31

very, also from the very, very get-go, it

9:33

was designed to be CPU, non-specific, so that

9:35

if at any point they wanted to make

9:37

a what CPU they were using, they wouldn't

9:40

have to undo everything in order to do

9:42

it. And it's, and also make sure. that

9:44

we all remember, those of us who were

9:46

there for the 90s man, MacOS was in

9:49

a really sad state. People were switching, lifelong

9:51

like Mac lovers, were switching to Windows because

9:53

it was simply more stable. It would, if

9:56

something, it had the ability to like let

9:58

a piece of code crash by taking the

10:00

entire platform down with it. And so many,

10:02

even not only that, but. the creature comforts

10:05

of life preenness things like that it was

10:07

so stagnant that we felt as though thank

10:09

goodness we don't have to leave the Mac

10:11

Apple realizes they have a problem here they're

10:14

not going to try to just keep polishing

10:16

the same incandescent light bulb we're going into

10:18

the LED yeah and the problem we're we're

10:20

we're polishing 80 light bulbs I mean I

10:23

I remember trying to buy my parents a

10:25

computer and I got an Apple 2E when

10:27

I was 12 and have Apple computers all

10:29

the way up into it. And it's 1996

10:32

or 1997. and I'm trying to buy my

10:34

parents a computer and I couldn't figure out

10:36

which one to buy because they were all

10:38

so, there were so many and they were

10:41

all so close together like do I need

10:43

the TV option or do I need the

10:45

CD, you know, like there was so many

10:47

versions of it and I just was so

10:50

frustrated that I ended up not getting them

10:52

one. I got something else for them or

10:54

something like I'm not, like I just, it

10:56

was like, it was like, it was a

10:59

disaster. And I think most companies have. fall

11:01

into this thing where they try to compete

11:03

with Microsoft head to head like we're gonna

11:05

do everything the Microsoft does and Microsoft's a

11:08

different beast like it's just it's got its

11:10

own ecosystem and you know learning you know

11:12

trying to do what Microsoft does is usually

11:15

a recipe for disaster and Apple went down

11:17

was one of the first ones to really

11:19

go down that path keeping it all turned

11:21

around when they brought Steve Jobs back and

11:24

along with Steve Jobs they brought the next

11:26

operating system. Well, that's the thing is jobs

11:28

came back because they needed an operating system.

11:30

Right. And they had tried multiple times to

11:33

do that in those 16 years. They had

11:35

tried Copeland. Symphony. Oh, what ended up shipping

11:37

is OS8 was. really just just

11:39

a of of system seven and any

11:42

classic MacOS. And then you had BOS building.

11:44

Yeah, they wanted to sell

11:46

BOS to and Apple

11:48

didn't want to buy

11:51

it. to buy it. Yes, they, that.

11:53

that. thing is is, like. As

11:55

much as it was much as

11:57

it was loved, mean,

12:00

it was a product

12:02

of that late early

12:04

early 80s, early days

12:06

of personal computers and

12:09

it was not a

12:11

modern operating system in

12:13

any sense of the in

12:15

any sense of And so

12:18

they were desperate to

12:20

do something. Next step

12:22

ended up being the

12:25

answer and then Steve

12:27

came along with a

12:29

ride. then good throw in if

12:31

you ask me. good throw-in, if you ask

12:33

me. And yeah, Andy's absolutely right, by the

12:35

way. In that era, I was

12:37

working at I was working on Mac User those

12:39

mid to late 90s. And I

12:41

I I have these visceral memories

12:43

of force rebooting rebooting my times a day

12:45

times a day to a it would crash to

12:48

a dead there was no And that was because there

12:50

was no protected memory, the multitasking wasn't really

12:52

real. And that's part of what's in this

12:54

jobs presentation. like, there's a moment where he's

12:56

playing a video and he drops a menu

12:58

bar down and the video keeps playing and

13:00

people lose their minds. And you're And as

13:02

a model. as a you're like person, like back

13:04

then if you drop that menu bar

13:07

the whole whole Mac stopped. to to drop a

13:09

menu item because he doing move to task. I was was

13:11

doing the radio show at the time and

13:13

I was very critical of Apple of Apple because

13:15

System 7 and OS-9, which the current operating system at

13:17

this time at this time, had terrible memory

13:19

management. Yeah. that's what you're talking about.

13:21

talking about. Because it couldn't... it didn't have modern memory

13:23

couldn't do anything a modern computer

13:25

could do. a modern down the whole system.

13:27

fact, One bad it. He has an

13:29

app called system. In fact, he runs in it.

13:31

He demo. he says, this does everything.

13:33

It writes to memory it can.

13:35

And he's playing a video. It's actually

13:38

Mission It writes trailer because Tom Cruise

13:40

is can. And he's And It's the bomb app.

13:42

And the video just keeps playing

13:44

in the background. And again, people lose

13:46

their minds. But as a Mac

13:48

user, bomb app and the video like that just takes

13:50

down the system and you got a reboot

13:52

again, they couldn't do it minds. So the other

13:54

thing about this that's really interesting is he's

13:56

trying to sell. I mean jobs, What a salesman,

13:58

right? He's trying to sell sell OS-10 to Mac. users

14:00

here. And the thing about it is it's

14:02

important that he does this because to Andy's

14:05

point, especially Windows in this era, the era

14:07

of the wind in the sales from Windows

14:09

95, like already, everybody, especially like the design

14:11

pros, everybody's like go to Windows, go to

14:13

Windows, drop the Mac. Apple, Steve Jobs can't

14:16

just sell this thing as, hey, we built

14:18

you a brand new operating system for you

14:20

to switch to. Because if they do that,

14:22

everybody who's got a brain in their head

14:25

is going to look at it and say,

14:27

well, if I'm going to have to adapt.

14:29

to a brand new operating system that is

14:31

nothing like what I've used before, I'll just

14:33

go to Windows. Like, the only thing holding

14:36

people on the Mac was familiarity with the

14:38

Mac. So all these next step engineers come

14:40

in and there is huge friction between the

14:42

next people and the Apple people, but they've

14:45

got like, the next has the code base.

14:47

If they implement next features, they don't have

14:49

to rewrite the code, but then it doesn't

14:51

look like the Mac like the satisfy Mac

14:53

users. they'll just switch to windows. So it

14:56

was really an existential moment for Apple to

14:58

get OS 10 right. And keep in mind,

15:00

they bought Next in 97. This is 2000

15:02

where they announced what they were going to

15:05

do in terms of the interface and they

15:07

said they'd ship it that summer. They didn't

15:09

ship to public beta. They shipped it the

15:11

next summer. So we're talking. like a four

15:13

plus year period just to get to 10.0

15:16

shipping. It took them a long time, but

15:18

what is brilliant about it is what they

15:20

shipped, it took, it took, it took a

15:22

while, point O wasn't very good, point one

15:25

was a lot better, they had to optimize

15:27

for speed, point O was really slow, but

15:29

like They did indeed build the foundation for

15:31

Apple's future, not just for a decade, not

15:33

just for the Mac, but for all these

15:36

other interfaces and for a quarter century and

15:38

counting. It's really quite remarkable. So it's a

15:40

very hard problem to solve and they did

15:42

end up getting there. And not only did

15:45

they solve it, they sold it. I think

15:47

we just have to keep on coming back

15:49

to how good Steve Jobs was at selling

15:51

things. Was this his best example of, it

15:54

was an early example, but one of his

15:56

better examples of, one of his better examples

15:58

of, of Steve Jobs, the pitch man, the

16:00

seller? I think, I mean, I think that

16:02

his pinnacle was. This is the one where

16:05

he said one of the design goals. Steve

16:07

said was when you saw it you wanted

16:09

to lick it. Yep. Very famous, right? And

16:11

then how long did we deal with all

16:14

that aqua? How many buttons did we have

16:16

to create? I have finally created a set

16:18

of actions in Photoshop that would create the

16:20

aqua button. So you could just select it

16:22

and hit a button and it would just

16:25

go and turn it into an aqua button

16:27

because that was that's how you look modern

16:29

and there was some point. that it all

16:31

was not modern anymore. And remember, remember for

16:34

like a hot minute there, they said, hey,

16:36

we thought that the Apple menu would look

16:38

good in the middle of this menu bar

16:40

and set it to the side. Non-functional logo.

16:42

And then yeah, that was one of those

16:45

public beta things where people are like, no,

16:47

you need an Apple menu and they and

16:49

they retas the Apple. It really wasn't until

16:51

10.4 until it was a finished like usable

16:54

operating system. It was like, they made lots

16:56

of progress and I think, but there was

16:58

a while before. Okay, will it print? Yes.

17:00

Will I will have file company? Yes. Will

17:02

all the multitasking work? Yes. All this sort

17:05

of stuff that we were waiting to actually.

17:07

And the. created a picture of an Apple

17:09

that finally had stuff together and that if

17:11

they said that this is we have a

17:14

plan and we have a plan to execute

17:16

that plan you might even start to believe

17:18

them. I mean this was before before OS

17:20

10 this was when they were trying to

17:22

develop Rhapsody when they're trying to develop like

17:25

symphony Copeland all the sort of stuff. This

17:27

was still this was the time where I

17:29

was still getting emails that were intended for

17:31

worldwide Apple executives at the VP level. And

17:34

so I was hearing about lots of back

17:36

abiding about. Lots of stuff of wasted after,

17:38

oh well, the print system kind of works,

17:40

but we decided to toss everything and put

17:43

this under. new manager for organizational reasons. And

17:45

that as much as anything else, I mean,

17:47

you can write an entire book just about

17:49

all the things that Apple needed to do

17:51

and successfully did to convince each other that

17:54

they had their act together finally and actually

17:56

become the seeds of the company that they

17:58

would once become. Well, and I think part

18:00

of it. James Thompson talks about watching this

18:03

because, of course, he's very well known as

18:05

the author of Peakehock and Dragthing, but before

18:07

there was Dragthing, he wrote the doc. for

18:09

this and he talks about his experience of

18:11

watching, this is the original duck which was

18:14

hideous with Square, he talks about watching Steve

18:16

hoping it didn't crash from his home in

18:18

Ireland. It's a really good piece by the

18:20

way if you haven't read it for his

18:23

from his three He's given a letter acronym

18:25

He's given a bunch of presentations about this,

18:27

but he's never put it down in words

18:29

and I was writing my story for mackerel

18:31

And I said I sent him an eye

18:34

message and I basically said is there a

18:36

preferred link where you tell this story and

18:38

he's like you know I don't think there

18:40

is I think there's just various presentations I've

18:43

given over time because the thing is Steve

18:45

really wanted everybody in Cupertino, so the classic

18:47

moment is, somebody offhandly mentions that they'll get

18:49

their developer who's working on the dock in

18:51

from Ireland. And Steve goes like, hmm, okay.

18:54

And then goes to another room and finds

18:56

the manager in charge of James and basically

18:58

says, it has come to my attention that

19:00

the engineer working on the dock is in

19:03

effing Ireland. Yeah. And then, and so he

19:05

was given an ultimatum that he had to,

19:07

he had to move to Cupertino or he

19:09

had to quit. to Cooper team up. So

19:11

what they did is they like gave him

19:14

an office and they had him fly in

19:16

and they'd like hit him for quite a

19:18

while and then finally he was found out

19:20

and he was and he just said I'm

19:23

not going to move to California so he

19:25

that was it. And he went back to

19:27

doing drag thing and they threw out a

19:29

doc. They actually rewrote the next person on

19:31

the project rewrote that doc again. Also that

19:34

doc demo is weird. There are things in

19:36

that demo that are very strange. They're like

19:38

the one... The single window mode that you

19:40

clicked on another button that was on the

19:43

right side of the title bar, they got

19:45

rid of that. The Apple menu in the

19:47

center was very weird. And the doc at

19:49

that point, there's actually a doc folder in

19:52

your user folder. So you could drag a

19:54

file from the desktop and Steve does in

19:56

the demo onto the doc and the file

19:58

disappears from the desktop and there's a modern

20:00

Mac user. You're like, wait, what, where to

20:03

go? And then he takes the file off

20:05

the doc and directs it back to the

20:07

doc and directs it back to the desktop.

20:09

later on that metaphor because it used to

20:12

be you could literally just save a file

20:14

into the doc folder and it would just

20:16

show up on the doc. Yeah. By the

20:18

way that's how Microsoft did it and so

20:20

that's naturally the way that they would attempt

20:23

it. Yeah. Because it's easy to configure then

20:25

but much easier just to drag it to

20:27

the doc. Pretty incredible. Yeah. Yeah. So it's

20:29

a big it's I mean it's a long

20:32

thing but even if you just watch the

20:34

part where Stephen throws it. It is. Yeah,

20:36

yeah, the genie effect, which was definitely a

20:38

steam cruise. jumps out of the dock in

20:40

a which you know, but it doesn't play

20:43

in the dock and Steve actually says we're

20:45

gonna make it so you can actually see

20:47

the video playing in the dock But it

20:49

doesn't actually do it during the demo and

20:52

they did get there with that and there

20:54

are a bunch of things that clearly are

20:56

just for Steve right like the finder he

20:58

talks about the finder and finder is very

21:00

different. It's more like a browser than it's

21:03

more like a what they added was They

21:05

added, they had icon support and list support,

21:07

which were the things that Mac users were

21:09

used to. And then they, and Steve, you

21:12

can hear it in his voice. He's like,

21:14

and then you've got this really cool column

21:16

view. And it's like, well, yeah, that's the

21:18

next view, that's Steve's favorite view. Yeah. And

21:20

he's really into that. Just like he introduces

21:23

mail, Apple Mail, also 25 years ago that

21:25

it was introduced, because Steve's favorite email program

21:27

was on Next Step. And when he.

21:29

went back to Apple

21:32

and he was using

21:34

the Mac. was He was

21:36

really mad, Mac, he

21:38

didn't like the email

21:41

programs on the Mac

21:43

and he got them

21:45

to start moving on the Mac

21:47

over. them to so he's,

21:49

you know, it's Steve

21:52

Jobs. If you hate

21:54

over. And love it, you

21:56

know, either way, blame

21:58

Steve Jobs, that was hate

22:01

Apple Mail mail it, that's

22:03

what he wanted. And

22:05

so he got it

22:07

and you can see,

22:09

he demos that too.

22:12

And you can see

22:14

his delight in it

22:16

because he loved that

22:18

app. So that things that

22:21

Steve clearly made happen

22:23

because he liked them

22:25

so much. much. Yeah. Yeah,

22:27

mean, he does this his

22:29

genie effect. The genie affects so slow Yeah, of

22:31

it in could hold down a couple

22:34

of keyboard commands and do the you could

22:36

hold he just kept doing it. my

22:38

commands and do the slowmo. showing off that they're

22:40

using a much more advanced graphics

22:42

imaging system that's based on that just

22:44

like how Nex was on more -credits. Look

22:46

how happy he is, though. It's

22:48

so cute. system is. mean, based on kind

22:50

of a master like too, because it's

22:52

just a dude at a keyboard and

22:54

a mouse. there's there's not a lot

22:56

to it. He's just a guy

22:58

using his computer on on stage. And he does a

23:00

pretty good job. He things that other that other couldn't

23:02

do, know, do. wasn't like, know, like, you know,

23:04

it was like, well, it doesn't do

23:06

that. it think that one thing that

23:08

Apple's good at, I think Steve was

23:10

exceptionally good at, it's picking out things

23:12

that good at, it's not. out

23:14

things that but they give you you

23:17

little like, oh, that's cool. that surprise and

23:19

delight, you know, know, and delight. It's delight.

23:21

That's pretty important. doing something. Well, it

23:23

i think it's actually one of

23:25

the most important things, because what what

23:27

happens is people That's what sticks

23:29

with you. yeah what people people make decisions subconsciously

23:31

about products, and that's the most

23:33

dangerous place for them to make

23:35

those decisions. if If they make

23:37

a decision, because when they do

23:39

it consciously, you you can argue with

23:42

them and persuade them that to some

23:44

other direction. But once subconsciously decide it's

23:46

cooler it's that it's a little

23:48

sleeker or whatever. whatever, you know, you

23:50

talk to big companies, they

23:52

talk about this talk design teams, design

23:54

thinking about things thinking about that kind

23:56

of thing all the time kind of thing all

23:58

the time of how, you know, if You know if something looks just

24:00

a little bit more refined or just

24:02

a little bit cooler, not crazy, but

24:05

just a little bit more, people like,

24:07

and that gets into the radiuses of

24:09

the corners, the how it feels in

24:11

your hand, all this stuff, and I

24:13

think that the companies that have done

24:15

really well have paid a lot of

24:17

attention to those things. And I think

24:20

a lot of times, you know, when

24:22

people don't pay attention to those things,

24:24

they pay a price because people make

24:26

that subconscious decision. There's nowhere to get

24:28

to it. That's like in the bios.

24:30

Like you can't get to that decision

24:33

and change it because they don't even

24:35

see it. They don't even see it.

24:37

They don't see that they've made that

24:39

decision. And I think that this kind

24:41

of, there's so many things that Apple

24:43

does that are in that little world

24:46

that are subconscious things people make decisions

24:48

make decisions about. Now and may have

24:50

even seemed trivial then that are still

24:52

really important. I mean you're absolutely right

24:54

Alex there's a subconscious level going on

24:56

here and to again beloved hallowed venerated

24:59

classic Mac OS but here's the thing

25:01

about classic Mac OS it was a

25:03

black and white operating system designed in

25:05

the early 80s and although yeah system

25:07

seven they had color and graphite interface

25:09

and all these things that the bottom

25:12

line was it was a black and

25:14

white interface and that color was sort

25:16

of like Stuck onto it to say

25:18

yeah, yeah, yeah, we got color but

25:20

even then like yeah, sure you can

25:22

have a colorful backdrop But like everything

25:25

was still really monochrome with little tiny

25:27

highlights And so one of the messages

25:29

he's sending with aqua and the lickable

25:31

interface and and taking the graphics and

25:33

maximizing them and doing all these things

25:35

He's showing you cool special effects that

25:38

you could call you could probably just

25:40

wave your hands at it and say

25:42

it's just sort of trendy graphic junk

25:44

and it's meaningless and it's just empty

25:46

calories. But it serves the larger purpose

25:48

of like the Mac being the weak

25:51

sister of computer operating systems in terms

25:53

of graphics. Ironically as a graphics powerhouse

25:55

in Photoshop and all that but the

25:57

OS itself being kind of this pale

25:59

thing from the early 80s. That's Steve

26:01

making it. very clear that that the

26:04

era of the Mac being a kind

26:06

of colorless computer is gone because of

26:08

the the graphics power that this thing

26:10

had. Now ironically all that graphics overhead

26:12

meant that it was super slow until

26:14

point one or point two. They got

26:17

there like the hardware advanced and the

26:19

software got tuned but he was sending

26:21

that message right up front that like

26:23

this was not the old Mac interface

26:25

with its kind of black and white

26:27

things everywhere. This was just, you know,

26:30

everything. Even the, even the buttons were

26:32

animated, rendered, blue, glossy, lickable things, right?

26:34

Like that was, that was, it was

26:36

on one level, yes, sort of silly,

26:38

on another level, super important to send

26:40

that message. Yeah. I'm gonna speak for

26:43

the geeks here and say that none

26:45

of that mattered at all, the real.

26:47

Reason this is still an operating system

26:49

25 years later is based on Unix

26:51

Darwin and the Darwin kernel Yeah, and

26:53

it was based on the mock kernel

26:56

and had a real largest install on

26:58

Unix in the world. Oh, yeah. And

27:00

Unix, by the way, invented in 1970

27:02

is also still in widespread use. We

27:04

did, we got to do all these

27:06

articles of Macworld in that era where

27:09

we started to, I basically. I hired

27:11

one of my friends from college who

27:13

was a Unix guy and said write

27:15

articles about how to use the command

27:17

line because nobody, no Mac user knows

27:19

how to do it. And I found

27:21

it funny because I learned how to

27:24

use the command line in college too.

27:26

And suddenly OS10 comes out and I

27:28

think to myself, wait a second. I

27:30

know how to use VI, right? It's

27:32

like, why are all these skills I

27:34

learned in 1990 suddenly relevant again? But

27:37

it was actually a huge boon to

27:39

Mac users to get access to that

27:41

command line for the first time. But

27:43

before that, there was like Max bug

27:45

and stuff, but really there was no

27:47

proper command line like you could get

27:50

on Unix. And then we got it

27:52

all. To me, it's more, it is

27:54

that of course, and I use the

27:56

command line more than anything else on

27:58

the Mac and eMac, but it's really

28:00

the idea of you changed from what

28:03

people thought. Not, you know, kind of,

28:05

the people at Bell Labs look down

28:07

on them. But people at companies like

28:09

Microsoft and Apple thought, yeah, this would

28:11

be a good idea for an operating

28:13

system to a real operating system, an

28:16

operating system that was robust, that had

28:18

memory management, that was scalable, that would

28:20

have get better and better with age,

28:22

instead of breakdown with age. And that

28:24

was really the right choice. It was

28:26

very lucky they did that. And in

28:29

those early days, I don't think the

28:31

software story gets enough credit. There were.

28:33

And Jobs talks about this in the

28:35

presentation, right? There were Coco apps, which

28:37

is basically their Next Step apps. And

28:39

there were some of those. The Omni

28:42

Group had those and Stone Design had

28:44

some, and Apple brought some over from

28:46

Next as well. That was what going

28:48

forward was the native Mac app, Coco

28:50

app experience. And they built Carbon, which

28:52

was this API, that was basically the

28:55

Mac compatibility layer that let you spend.

28:57

A little bit he says like three

28:59

months or whatever to convert your apps

29:01

or runs natively on OS 10 using

29:03

the carbon APIs from classic MacOS and

29:05

that's what the bulk of the apps

29:08

were but it took time for them

29:10

to come over. What I don't think

29:12

gets enough credit is. that there was

29:14

also an influx of software that was

29:16

basically never intended to be on the

29:18

Mac and was never built for the

29:21

Mac. It was Unix stuff, it was

29:23

X Windows stuff, and they did over

29:25

those first few years, you kept seeing

29:27

all these apps that looked terrible, but

29:29

they were very powerful. And the reason

29:31

was that that Unix underpinning mean... meant

29:34

that they could bring it over and

29:36

that was in the early days of

29:38

the Mac some of the most mind-blowing

29:40

apps that that came out were actually

29:42

these ugly things that were brilliant and

29:44

powerful and they had never even considered

29:47

running them on an Apple platform. Like

29:49

VI. And so well and they would

29:51

put gooies on them and there's a

29:53

whole class of apps there are still

29:55

a few around caliber the e-book app

29:57

is a good example of this where

30:00

it's really not a good interface on

30:02

top of it, but it is a

30:04

cross-platform app that would never have existed

30:06

before. There's a lot of the handbreak

30:08

is really FFM peg with a nice

30:10

UI. There's actually quite a few. Yeah,

30:13

but in the early days, yeah, and

30:15

the UIs were really bad in the

30:17

early days, but getting that influx of

30:19

this stuff where, like literally, how many

30:21

people, I knew a lot of people

30:23

who were basically Unix nerds, and they

30:25

all started buying Max because they could

30:28

get. a nice UI when they wanted

30:30

it and then you get a command

30:32

line when they needed it. And that

30:34

was super powerful. So it was incredibly

30:36

good decision to have UNIX underneath. And

30:38

then of course that meant that that's

30:41

the layer that was the most easily

30:43

transportable to the iPhone, the iPad, etc.

30:45

it actually made it more saleable because

30:47

just like they say you don't market

30:49

dog food to dogs you market dog

30:51

food to you package it for an

30:54

advertiser for the people who buy the

30:56

dog the dog food and by suddenly

30:58

giving all these system administrators and IT

31:00

people here's a command line that you

31:02

will enjoy actually using it makes it

31:04

more likely that they're going to recommend

31:07

this as why don't we make or

31:09

approve a buy of a hundred of

31:11

these units because they know that they're

31:13

going to have a good time using

31:15

this on their desk to administer the

31:17

rest of the rest of the network.

31:20

And you know, it's interesting because at

31:22

this point, no, you know, 25 years

31:24

ago, people couldn't wait to get away

31:26

from OS9. But at this point, nobody's

31:28

saying, oh, how do we replace OS10?

31:30

It's so superannuated. We needed something better.

31:33

We needed something better. Nobody's saying, oh,

31:35

how do we replace OS10? It's so

31:37

superannuated. We needed something better. advancements in

31:39

the operating system be something I complain

31:41

about more than more. Yeah, don't mess

31:43

with it. Yeah, like I'm just kind

31:46

of like, okay, we got it, it's

31:48

working. It's like just make it, stop

31:50

it. Make it fast. You're watching Mac

31:52

Break Weekly, happy birthday to OS-10. So

31:54

they, in fact, come to think of

31:56

it every January, we're probably gonna have

31:59

happy birthday, because it was all announced

32:01

at MacWorld. How long before OS10 shipped

32:03

Jason. So they shipped, they said they

32:05

would ship it that summer, they shipped

32:07

instead what was called the public beta.

32:09

So they had some. developer previews and

32:12

then they had the public beta which

32:14

you had to pay for and was

32:16

broken and that and and then the

32:18

next summer 2001 they shift 10.0 and

32:20

it was super slow and we didn't

32:22

nobody was recommended to use it. Then

32:25

they did 10-1 the next year and

32:27

I actually thought that 10-1 that was

32:29

the first time that I officially moved

32:31

over and used MacOS10 the whole, like

32:33

every day all day was 10-1 and

32:35

even then it was really right on

32:38

the edge, but you could do it.

32:40

So it was a real transition and

32:42

that, you know, they made the classic

32:44

compatibility layer, which was essentially you could

32:46

run old apps in a in classic

32:48

MacOS on top of OS10 and they

32:51

had that. kept them for a little

32:53

while and it wasn't really until Steve

32:55

did his little funeral for Maco's 10

32:57

for Maco's 9 where they brought out

32:59

the Maco's 9 casket and everything and

33:01

that was WWDC 2002 so that was

33:04

the moment you know two years two

33:06

and a half years later where Apple

33:08

really just said guys it's over is

33:10

a stop stop with the cost. This

33:12

is when the big cats began this

33:14

was puma. to be followed by JAGU-R.

33:17

Yeah, they weren't originally... They were, yeah,

33:19

they were originally code names that nobody

33:21

knew, and then they started just using

33:23

them in the marketing, which was kind

33:25

of weird. Yeah, Puma was secret, or

33:27

a secret code name. I do have

33:29

one story I'll mention. Back what Steve

33:32

was out in the wilderness, still working

33:34

it next in 1995, I think it

33:36

was. I got to hang out with

33:38

him a little bit for a weekend.

33:40

And I remember him vividly saying, and

33:42

this is a little bit bitter because

33:45

he's not at Apple yet, they haven't

33:47

started the conversations. We had a 10-year

33:49

lead on Microsoft with the Macintosh and

33:51

we blew it. In 84, they had

33:53

a 10-year lead. By 1995, Windows 95

33:55

came out. He said there was nothing,

33:58

no reason to buy a Macintosh. And

34:00

Remember, he's not an not at Apple, But I think

34:02

even then, in his mind, he's thinking, how do

34:04

we get rid of? get rid of, you know, you

34:06

know, how do we replay? how How do

34:08

we put next step in the in the it

34:10

was a very smart move smart move part.

34:12

They Apple's did the right thing. the right thing. to

34:15

have you all on this very special

34:17

birthday, Jason Snell. Thank you Thank you for writing that

34:19

article and getting James getting James down his

34:21

thoughts. I didn't realize that was I chain

34:23

of events that was good idea. I was

34:25

really pleased to read that. Very good idea. Jason

34:28

of course, of course,.com, handy and

34:30

not Andy and Ico, W.G.B.H. Boston from Office

34:32

Hours. Global, Alex Lindsay, ladies and gentlemen,

34:34

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Here's zscaler.com/security. We're really great product. And

37:10

we thank them for support in Mac

37:12

Break Weekly. You do the same when

37:15

you use that address.zscaler.com/security. Speaking of security,

37:17

Apple has agreed to pay a $95

37:19

million fine. Actually, the fine is... de

37:21

minimis from Apple's point of view I

37:23

mean that's that's pocket change that's in

37:26

Tim Cook's couch but and and by

37:28

the way you may get as much

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as $20 each for up to five

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in Syria enabled devices. So 100 bucks,

37:34

that might be not pocket change to

37:37

you. The point more is that Apple

37:39

is, you know, after five years, finally

37:41

kind of said, well, all right, they

37:43

don't admit any wrongdoing, but the settlement

37:45

refers to, and this is what you

37:48

want to know, the actionable thing, unintentional,

37:50

Syria activations that occurred after he's, hey,

37:52

back at 2014 and later. Recordings were

37:54

apparently prompted without users ever saying, hey,

37:56

you know who. And oh, sorry, I

37:59

activated, I apologize, I shouldn't have said

38:01

that. Hey, you know who. Sometimes Shlomo

38:03

would be inadvertently activated. A wish a

38:05

blower told the Guardian when an Apple

38:07

watch was raised. Actually, I turned that

38:10

feature off pretty darn quick. And worse,

38:12

it seems, Siri might have set that

38:14

out. to marketing people. No, no, that's

38:16

that's an allegation that is never supported.

38:18

Apple denies it. And there's no there's

38:21

no way there's no way that happened.

38:23

That this is the the phantom thing.

38:25

It's like fake conspiracy period. I've been

38:27

talking about breadsticks all day and now

38:29

I'm getting an olive garden ad. It's

38:31

people who don't understand how good. Internet

38:34

tracking is they don't need to listen.

38:36

They don't need to listen and also

38:38

Apple I mean like Apple doesn't even

38:40

know what apps you're you want in

38:42

the app store and they're gonna they're

38:45

gonna perfectly target like this is not

38:47

gonna happen Apple doesn't Apple said unequivocally

38:49

told us ours technical Syria data has

38:51

never been used to build marketing profiles.

38:53

It's never been sold to anyone for

38:56

any purpose. Yes And they said Apple

38:58

settled to avoid additional litigation. We just

39:00

want to get get it. And this

39:02

is the story that we all we

39:04

all talked about before them. And this

39:07

was actually a few years ago now,

39:09

right? But it's the idea that they

39:11

used to have a human crew of

39:13

people who would listen to activations as

39:15

part of their like quality for Siri.

39:18

But it meant and then. there was

39:20

that story about how those things were

39:22

being shared among the people in that

39:24

human group where there would be like

39:26

an activation and people would be having

39:29

sex and you could hear it in

39:31

the background and they like it was

39:33

like high school they were basically like

39:35

sharing these audio clips around and Apple

39:37

had to apologize profusely and actually put

39:40

a feature that's still in there if

39:42

you ever gotten that warning that is

39:44

like would you like to improve Siri

39:46

by sharing audio that was the feature

39:48

that was added because of this where

39:51

you could say no I do not

39:53

want to share my audio files with

39:55

Siri. So obviously Apple made some mistakes

39:57

here and they're paying a very small

39:59

amount of money for it to be

40:01

honest, but like let's not get like

40:04

that one statement that's in there is

40:06

never corroborated. There's no evidence about it.

40:08

It is going to feed every conspiracy

40:10

theory and like seriously the fact that

40:12

people want to believe that assistance are

40:15

listening to them and feeding all that.

40:17

information so that you can be profiled

40:19

the next time you open a web

40:21

page, versus the very clear way that

40:23

people are profiled and tracked in our

40:26

world today. The fact that people would

40:28

rather believe that it's Siri listening to

40:30

them than that everybody knows everything about

40:32

you without needing to listen to you.

40:34

I find it kind of baffling, but

40:37

there we are. I was talking to

40:39

someone who works on that algorithm for

40:41

a network and not Apple somewhere else

40:43

that does a lot of it where

40:45

you think that they can hear you.

40:48

And they said, you know, the idea

40:50

of using the audio is just so

40:52

inefficient. He said, it would be such

40:54

a mess. He said, no one uses

40:56

that. He goes, the person, I can

40:59

tell whether you're standing next to somebody

41:01

and whether you're talking to them because

41:03

your body and their body move in

41:05

a certain way with the accelerometersometers. when

41:07

you're standing and talking to someone or

41:10

interacting with them, there's these things that

41:12

we know. So we know the two

41:14

of them, as soon as we've linked

41:16

the two of you, I know all

41:18

the information that they searched, that they

41:21

bought it Safeway 10 minutes before, that

41:23

they did all like all. that's

41:25

all that data. data. And

41:27

so I can can guess

41:29

really quickly what

41:31

they're talking about because

41:34

this is all

41:36

on top of all

41:38

for them. mind And you

41:40

know, are doing the

41:42

best thing which

41:45

is searching while they're

41:47

talking, is like they're

41:49

talking and they're

41:51

searching some item or

41:53

whatever, know, and

41:56

they don't, talking, invisible,

41:58

people don't even know

42:00

that they're doing

42:02

it. Like you're constantly

42:04

asking Google for

42:07

something or figuring something

42:09

out while you're

42:11

talking to someone like,

42:13

what is that?

42:15

Where did that come

42:18

from? they're And you

42:20

forget that you

42:22

even did that, but

42:24

the idea that

42:26

we would use audio,

42:29

talking, He said that would just grind

42:31

our servers to the ground. know, he

42:33

goes, he was like, even the NSA

42:35

doesn't You know, he was right. I'm going

42:37

to pause here because I them. Well, otherwise. I'm

42:39

going to don't think Apple does it. I

42:41

don't think Google does it. And I

42:44

don't think Amazon I don't think Amazon your Apple

42:46

does it. I do it. Oh yeah.

42:48

Your smart TV, which has a microphone and

42:50

a camera. does it. and I a lot

42:52

of incentives, why TVs are so cheap,

42:54

to send this stuff back. I

42:56

don't does. Just the you could do, I don't

42:58

does it with for keywords. they're looking for

43:00

keywords, for keywords. do that too. do don't

43:02

think I listening, think they're listening to what

43:04

you say in your room as

43:07

much as they're just watching what you

43:09

watch say in able to infer everything

43:11

about you from what you watch. you watch

43:13

and are should never connect your TV

43:15

to the internet. you No, don't you watch. Well,

43:17

do that. should never connect your TV never had

43:19

internet. No, don't do it. think they're probably... that. Don't

43:21

do that there it. You know, we've and looking at

43:23

what's going back, although it's hard to see

43:25

because it may be encrypted, out be, know

43:27

know, in some way parsed before it goes

43:29

out on the network. You probably don't

43:31

want to send the audio of the conversation

43:33

out. Let's, let's face it. audio of the But

43:36

cars and let's let's face

43:38

it but cars I think I

43:40

think continually we cause

43:42

concern because both manufacturers of

43:45

cars and and TVs in

43:47

their their privacy statements.

43:49

say we could if we

43:51

wanted to. to yeah secondly Cox, and

43:53

I bet others, bet others have,

43:55

there are companies out

43:57

there marketing. this this ability to.

44:00

target using audio from consumers. lying, I they

44:02

may be lying. guess I mean, that

44:04

knows. My guess is that it's

44:06

not content. like My guess is that

44:08

it's things like they've got an

44:10

algorithm that will predict the number

44:12

of people in the household and

44:14

the gender know they're Well, we know

44:16

they're doing that, I'm not sure they're transcribing what they're saying.

44:18

They material, they said we hear

44:20

what people are saying and we

44:22

know what they're talking about. All right. specifically

44:25

say that. say I'm not sure

44:27

I believe sure believe that. I BS, that might be

44:29

part more than But nobody have a

44:31

feeling that that's more So I have a

44:33

feeling that that's more them pitching

44:35

their non-existent services. However, there's no

44:37

trust. Zero trust them. no no

44:39

reason to trust them. No.

44:42

TV makers or the car

44:44

trust the TV makers or the it's

44:46

not and it's not just that it's just

44:48

it's not just that. It's part is is that the

44:50

technology is that the technology getting is

44:52

so bad for that internet. You know, the chips, the know,

44:54

I mean, I I chips, mean, you have so you know, I

44:56

build I build I to, we I have to, we

44:59

have to dumb down all of our stuff for

45:01

these stupid TVs, know, you know, because chip sets are

45:03

are so bad, you know, and I have to

45:05

admit, to a luxury. a I stream a lot

45:07

of stuff to Apple TV. of The Apple TV

45:09

is by far. I mean, there's not any other

45:11

is that's close to the Apple TV from a

45:13

power perspective. So you can throw anything at

45:15

it. to it just will do TV from a the last

45:18

five years. It'll just, so you can throw whatever

45:20

you're sending it. at it. the but when you deal you

45:22

deal with these you realize we because we look

45:24

at the sets because we have to figure

45:26

out what, what can we deliver to

45:28

those TVs. to And we have to dumb

45:30

everything down so much because they're just such

45:32

cheap. such cheap pieces of electronics and

45:34

the same thing in the cars. in the You know,

45:36

it's a cheap piece of of electronic I just

45:38

got a new radio any radio my car and you know I'm

45:40

a very a very old car, a car guy a car

45:42

guy. a I And I radio because the the radio because

45:44

the headphone jack was broken. That's all I

45:47

cared about was can my iPhone connect to my

45:49

headphone jack? And iPhone the headphone jack finally gave

45:51

out I I paid a and some dollars and

45:53

bought one with a new screen on it and

45:55

everything else. screen on It doesn't know how to

45:57

do anything other than play music other than I

45:59

hook it up. And it does does

46:01

to my and it looks better

46:03

it looks better than looks better It looks

46:05

better than most, you know, the just the

46:07

makes the whole thing work. the whole thing work,

46:09

you know. And ability know, Apple's ability

46:12

to build all this stuff up people.

46:14

other people, mean, making making great stuff

46:16

with some of the some of the tools as

46:18

well. as well. But what I would

46:20

say is that the I would say is that

46:22

the stuff that's built into the cars. the stuff

46:25

the stuff that's built into your your TVs.

46:27

is not worth the trouble. Like you should just

46:29

disconnect as much of that as you can as

46:31

giving up a bunch of privacy for. giving

46:33

know a bunch of fast food you

46:36

best, food at best. badly made fast

46:38

food. food. Yeah, and and the that can

46:40

do do to you, but they're selling that

46:42

information to insurance companies. So God

46:44

forbid, forbid, like you have to make a

46:46

claim. a claim, If it's a serious

46:48

enough claim, they can just basically buy

46:50

information from your car maker from your

46:52

but you know what? We yeah, but you know

46:54

you tend to break a lot

46:57

more you tend to break 18 % of the, 18%

46:59

the, so we're going to, yeah, Well, and I

47:01

would say say the that's more apparent is

47:03

that they charge you differently for

47:05

your flights. you They charge you different,

47:07

they're profile using that profile the kind of person that

47:09

you're the kind of person that would pay

47:11

more for your flight than somebody else not even

47:13

so same not even seeing the same where getting

47:15

to the point where you're not seeing the

47:18

same if they they decide that you're that kind

47:20

of person person. that's you know know so it's

47:22

not even something that's theoretical or it might

47:24

happen at some point when you wake up at

47:26

happening every single day when you're on there

47:28

and you know, day when you're on that you get

47:30

you know it's yeah that you get a better price

47:32

If you're if you're accessing the app or

47:34

the if or whatever from an Android phone

47:36

then from the app or the hotel chain or very difficult

47:39

to separate, than from an I mean,

47:41

there are people now in our very difficult

47:43

to you know, I I was, people

47:45

is my favorite. I was talking

47:47

about this is my tree ornaments favorite the

47:49

day and I got ads for pierogi

47:51

Christmas tree ornaments, uh, that night.

47:54

that night. You hear that all hear

47:56

that all the time, I hear it from

47:58

every, all all normals. Absolutely. believe

48:00

this is happening. is happening. And

48:02

I guess what I try to say I

48:04

try to say is... this is I think

48:06

this is what you were saying, Jason. They They

48:08

don't really need to listen to

48:11

what you're saying because they

48:13

already know so much about you.

48:15

I mean, if they much would, but

48:17

you. I mean, like trying to avoid want

48:19

to know that, they would, but it's was, what

48:21

bubble has been unsealed since Like, okay. But

48:23

you going to live in now?

48:26

that was, what know that it's

48:28

Christmas time. They know that at

48:30

some point you bought those been unsealed

48:32

know you love are right? Yeah, to

48:34

live in now? So. Well, and they know that I

48:36

had on low Christmas. time. Or the progee ornaments

48:39

are somebody that you know, or somebody that you know

48:41

maybe you ordered them or maybe you ordered them

48:43

somewhere in the past, and now it's

48:45

the right time for you to do that, they you

48:47

to do that. explain it. Absolutely. I

48:49

mean, even just they know data, they know

48:51

that you're walking around in a way

48:53

that would be what you do when

48:55

you put things on the Christmas tree.

48:57

the the thing, though, that does make

49:00

people, I think, reasonably nervous, is nervous,

49:02

is the of computing. of

49:05

the the and with with AI

49:07

has increased so. over

49:09

the last the last 10 years that

49:11

marketers can do so much more with

49:13

this data than they could ever

49:15

do. ever do. that's why it seems like

49:17

magic. magic. But and I

49:19

think people should and I think

49:22

people should reasonably be afraid of

49:24

what people are doing with with AI

49:26

in the vast volume of data that they, the

49:28

NSA didn't didn't build that giant data

49:30

center the in the Midwest because

49:32

they could crack encryption. They just

49:34

figured down the road we'll be

49:36

able to. to. And so all this is being all

49:38

this is being collected has always

49:41

been collected. And now they really

49:43

have some powerful tools. Yeah, that's why it's

49:45

it's absolutely imperative that collectively society

49:47

decides that we are going to

49:49

make this a priority for our lawmakers,

49:51

that we need laws settle laws

49:53

enforceable that basically protect

49:56

personal user information. I've I've always

49:58

wanted a framework. basically says

50:00

that these are some specific categories of

50:02

information that belong to you, and ownership cannot

50:04

be transferred to any other entity under

50:06

any reason. It could be leased, but it

50:08

cannot be transferred, which would create a

50:10

requirement to say that every year or so,

50:12

whether they do it in a lame

50:15

way or in a legitimate way, they have

50:17

to basically renew that lease with you

50:19

in a direct and specific way. unless there

50:21

are consequences, you'd fall afoul of what

50:23

I always refer to as the big bag

50:25

of money on the table phenomenon, where

50:27

a big bag of money on the table.

50:30

and a sign of it saying it

50:32

is not illegal to take this bag

50:34

of money and take it home with

50:36

you, people are going to take that

50:38

big bag of money. When do we

50:40

get to despair of this, Andy? Because

50:42

I don't think it's ever going to

50:44

happen more than we're going to get

50:46

money out of politics. Well, we - they're

50:48

just fundamental structural problems here But every

50:50

clear -minded person knows are a problem.

50:52

But because of money and because of

50:54

the power that billionaires and

50:56

marketers and these oligarchs have,

50:59

we're never gonna see any. reasonable

51:01

privacy. Yeah, well, the only thing, I

51:03

don't know what we can do.

51:05

The only thing we can't do is

51:07

give up because as soon as

51:09

we, because that's despair is what the,

51:11

the, the most operandi of the

51:13

devil metaphorically speaking is to lower our

51:15

standards until we don't care anymore.

51:17

I read the screw tape letters. I

51:19

know, actually, actually, was more quoting,

51:21

uh, broadcast news, Albert Brooks, but it

51:23

started with C Lewis. I promise.

51:25

If If you want to know the

51:27

devil's ways, the screw tape letters

51:30

is hysterical. Anyway, and there's a John

51:32

version of it on Audible that I

51:34

really enjoy. anyway - know, I think that

51:36

it is typically these kinds of things

51:38

happen that when people start to have

51:40

a lot of friction or start to

51:42

have it upset or start to become

51:44

conscious to it, it also beyond the

51:46

government provides market opportunities for a way

51:48

of doing things. And I think that's an interesting

51:50

point. That's what Tim Berners -Lee is trying to

51:52

do with solids. yeah. And that turns into

51:54

disruption. You know, like when you see disruption, a

51:56

lot of times it's people being built up

51:58

and more and more frustrated with something. someone comes in

52:00

comes in with something that solves that, that itch

52:02

that's become, you know, intolerable. that's Suddenly you jumps

52:04

over and that's when you see something happen really

52:06

quickly. Suddenly everyone moves over to something else. so

52:08

And so, you know, I don't think that

52:10

I think the government may be able to do

52:12

something about think it's think going to be more

52:14

likely that someone that someone I think that there's

52:16

an there's no social media. media Someone's gonna

52:19

build a human a social media that requires

52:21

you to biometrically log in all the

52:23

time all the time not gonna allow any

52:25

bots any going to, going to you be a

52:27

little harder to communicate. won't be as

52:29

automated. it won't be any automated posts. There

52:31

won't be any way to do, posts there

52:33

gonna have to be you. And I

52:35

think that like kind of thing be you and

52:37

I think that that kind of thing up to people

52:39

are so tired of so tired know, like

52:41

that half of half is, you know,

52:43

half of it is bots you know, You know, like they

52:45

would of Facebook is going to be

52:47

Half of Facebook Do you feel like be

52:49

that maybe we're just the though that maybe we're

52:51

just the tin hat wearing? I don't think, I think that we're talking,

52:54

right? I guess what I would

52:56

say is we are consciously talking about

52:58

it, but I think that when

53:00

you look at that rates, when you

53:02

look at rates, when you know, when you

53:04

look at this, it's, it's affecting

53:06

everyone. it's affecting they're just not, everyone, you know, like

53:08

not conscious to it, it, know, like it's, but they're,

53:10

but it's affecting, you know, a a lot

53:12

of people, you know, and, and I think

53:14

that, you know, you we we more. more... as a

53:16

a group, we oftentimes become more sensitive to

53:18

this. to this, more sensitive to,

53:20

like, for instance, now, for foods right

53:23

moment, you know, like where suddenly

53:25

having a moment, maybe we shouldn't be eating everything out of

53:27

a box, like, hey, know, shouldn't know, know,

53:29

be know, and there's a whole bunch of

53:31

market opportunities that are occurring underneath all of

53:33

that. And I think that, you know, so

53:35

what happens is that I think a lot

53:37

of, a lot of folks, of that. And I that, you know,

53:39

a lot of folks, you know, know, we see these snaps, does

53:42

it it fix everything? Probably not, but I

53:44

think that you will, you will. You know, I think and

53:46

know, I think, and I also think

53:48

that that's why, I mean, an Apple user, you

53:50

know, a lot of times I want Apple to you know,

53:52

a lot of times I want Apple to keep on

53:54

tightening all those you I want them to say, you

53:56

know, I don't want to share the third parties. I

53:58

want them to be able to, I want to keep. having

54:00

them close that stuff down, you know,

54:02

because, you know, I think that, that,

54:04

that. But how do you explain that

54:06

there's still hundreds of millions of people

54:08

using X? I mean, I think, I

54:11

think you're an optimist, I guess is

54:13

what I would say, Alex, you're a

54:15

wide-eyed optimist. You can just, you know,

54:17

but I think that I think that

54:19

it's, again, I, I, to take. Elon

54:21

Musk for a moment. Maybe I'm a

54:23

citizen. Is that everyone was really resigned

54:25

about about that there's no way you

54:27

could build an electric car until Tesla

54:30

came out. And so it's just he

54:32

took advantage of a moment that people

54:34

were paying attention to that and didn't

54:36

try to have us eat broccoli to

54:38

do it. He just said we're going

54:40

to make something that's cooler that happens

54:42

to be electric. And so that, you

54:44

know, so I think that that shows

54:47

you where there's weak points in a

54:49

lot of these things. spies on you

54:51

more than your Tesla. I don't have

54:53

a Tesla, so I don't know. I

54:55

can tell you for a fact. I'm

54:57

a 10-year-old God's caravan that I had

54:59

to pull by the rate that the

55:01

headphone jack broke on. So I don't

55:03

know. You're smart. And by the way,

55:06

you said, I'm not a car guy.

55:08

Car guys all own old cars. Car

55:10

guys love old cars. I have an

55:12

enclosed truck. That's how I look at

55:14

it, because I put all the seats

55:16

bad if it gets wet. So it's,

55:18

but outside of that, I'm, you know,

55:20

a country boy with a truck that

55:23

I can close the, I can close

55:25

the top on. And so, so, but

55:27

I, but when I, but I do

55:29

look at some of the newer cars

55:31

and I do think about, oh my

55:33

gosh, there'll be a lot of tracking

55:35

going on that I don't, you know,

55:37

deal with. I also don't put a

55:39

lot of miles on cars. I don't

55:42

drive that much. Yeah. We're going to

55:44

a little break. Andy Anako, Alex Lindsay,

55:46

Jason Snell. Our show today brought to

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58:31

Do we care why Apple won't make

58:33

a search engine? Eddie Q says

58:35

it's economically risky to compete with Google.

58:37

You know what the risk might

58:40

be though and Apple actually filed a

58:42

brief. in this is that they may

58:44

lose their 20 billion or so a year

58:46

from Google. If the court rules that

58:48

Google has to stop those payments, that's the

58:50

real risk. This was part of that. that

58:53

briefing that they filed with the Department

58:55

of Justice. Yeah, this is part of

58:57

the remedy portion of the antitrust case

58:59

against Google search where they lost the

59:01

case. And now we spend lots of

59:03

months with a DOJ and Google arguing

59:05

about, okay, well, how do we remedy

59:07

this? Won't go on much longer. I

59:09

I think the judge has to decide

59:11

soon, right? Yeah, and a couple of

59:14

months, I think. Oh, is it that

59:16

long? Okay. Not too long. And of

59:18

course, the DOJ is asking, essentially, Google

59:20

shut down everything, sold Chrome. One of

59:22

the things that the DOJ is asking

59:24

for is, sorry, backing up one step, DOJ

59:26

does not have the ability to make

59:28

an order. They simply file a document with

59:30

the judge saying, here's what we think

59:32

will remedy the situation and restore balance to

59:34

the force, so to speak. One of

59:36

the One things they want to do is

59:38

Apple, they can no longer have any special

59:40

deals with Apple that benefit Apple in

59:42

any way. On that basis, Apple filed a

59:45

brief basically saying that, hey, we think

59:47

that this means that we get to be

59:49

part of this conversation because now you're

59:51

directly interfering with Apple's ability to do this.

59:53

business, because if you if you a

59:55

10 -year ban on Apple having an

59:57

agreement with Google that benefits Apple,

59:59

that that That means means that not just

1:00:01

search, we we can't support Android

1:00:03

devices. We can't out to have

1:00:05

links that anything out to

1:00:08

Google Docs. Anything that involves

1:00:10

Google will short us out, and

1:00:12

and us this is, if you and

1:00:14

if you read the document,

1:00:16

it's actually very, very, like, very plain English, very,

1:00:18

very, English, to understand. to understand,

1:00:20

they're saying that because Google

1:00:23

has more than their hands

1:00:25

full, about about themselves, they're not going worry

1:00:27

about not going to worry

1:00:29

about interests. So we have a very we have a very

1:00:31

important interest in being able to have a

1:00:33

voice in this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. The The development of

1:00:35

us, us, this is what Eddie wrote in the

1:00:37

filing with the federal court. court

1:00:40

week, It says it says I name. I

1:00:42

don't think Eddie really wrote it. Eddie, the

1:00:44

the lawyers who Eddie wrote this, the development

1:00:46

of a search engine would cost

1:00:48

Apple billions of dollars to take many

1:00:50

years many years diverting and employees away in

1:00:52

other growth areas. It would hurt us,

1:00:54

your It would The search business is

1:00:56

rapidly evolving. That I'll admit admit to do that

1:00:58

that artificial intelligence. So So it would

1:01:00

be economically risky for Apple to

1:01:02

create a search engine. That's probably true. I think

1:01:04

that don't, I think that sometimes we

1:01:06

get into the thing where we get

1:01:08

we by the time by ending. something's ending and

1:01:10

think. for is ending. ending. I think search

1:01:12

is way more time asking time asking

1:01:14

chat cheapity or or sonnet or than I

1:01:16

do Google than I Google I mean, I

1:01:18

Google search, the summaries are

1:01:21

pretty good, but outside of that.

1:01:23

of that. I find that I get my answer much faster

1:01:25

with chat GT so I don't think using arc now which

1:01:27

uses perplexity and and it summarizes summarizes search results

1:01:29

much better. I very rarely also Google has a I'm

1:01:31

sorry I'm I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sorry I'm sorry I

1:01:33

was going to say is that I

1:01:35

think that I'm sorry I'm sorry one is I

1:01:37

don't think this has gone to the

1:01:39

Supreme Court yet. So we don't know

1:01:41

I'm sorry they actually force them to do

1:01:43

something. I'm This is still a couple

1:01:45

of years away, maybe. maybe maybe all the

1:01:48

years away. And by the time by the time they get

1:01:50

to the Court will search still be a thing at be a

1:01:52

thing that it the level that it is now. Number

1:01:54

you know we're about to that, you know, we're about to

1:01:56

have a new going to Like, are they going

1:01:58

to continue to fight it? Like you know, so If it

1:02:00

goes into a- Well, at this point, I

1:02:02

think it's up to the court, right? I

1:02:04

mean, I- No, I mean, if it got-

1:02:06

The DOJ, can he go to the court

1:02:09

and say, hey, your honor- No, no, because

1:02:11

it was a- It's done, it's a done

1:02:13

deal. If it gets a- It hasn't gone

1:02:15

up to the screen. Oh, they don't have

1:02:17

to defend an appeal. They could just say,

1:02:19

if they appealed it, the DOJ could decide

1:02:22

not to move forward. like they can just

1:02:24

go you know this is not oh you're

1:02:26

right not about it you know so so

1:02:28

in the next four years that explains why

1:02:30

Tim Cook put a million dollars down on

1:02:32

the inaugural ball that's why everyone's putting it's

1:02:34

pretty transactional this one you know I think

1:02:37

it terms a lot easier to calculate for

1:02:39

when it comes to like will it make

1:02:41

a difference yeah it's much simpler no guessing

1:02:43

involved at all yeah but this could affect

1:02:45

Google search because they're putting together so many

1:02:47

products so many products that leverage off of

1:02:50

essentially the Google search product. They have a

1:02:52

brand new, the marketing hype that they're putting

1:02:54

together for AI in 2025 is now they're

1:02:56

going to move the Gemini model into agentive,

1:02:58

what they're calling AI, which is stuff that

1:03:00

actually uses other tools and apps to do

1:03:03

things for you. And one of the first

1:03:05

things they introduced to people who are paid

1:03:07

subscribers are essentially research this topic for me

1:03:09

on Google search. And here's why I'm interested

1:03:11

in, here's your parameters. And we'll come back

1:03:13

not just with a Google search, not just

1:03:16

with a search summary, but here is like

1:03:18

a couple of pages on this topic and

1:03:20

a whole list of here web pages to

1:03:22

take a look at for more exploration. And

1:03:24

if you say, oh, refine this, I really

1:03:26

want you to talk about limit the talk,

1:03:28

don't tell me more about Paris in the

1:03:31

1890s in the 1890. So if Google is

1:03:33

barred from using Google Search, not only will

1:03:35

it bar that, it will also bar them

1:03:37

offering Google Search as a product to essentially

1:03:39

double check other people's AIs, which is another

1:03:41

service that they're trying to offer through Google

1:03:44

Search for developers. So it's a moving target

1:03:46

and it is a very, very complicated thing.

1:03:48

And yeah, it's a million dollars. I guess

1:03:50

the question is like a small amount of

1:03:52

money to pay. As a user, I guess

1:03:54

the question is like, is this going to

1:03:57

make my life any better. I don't know

1:03:59

if it well. Like I don't don't know if

1:04:01

the breaking these up is to make him to make

1:04:03

it to make my to better. search Like better. don't

1:04:05

think that think that think we go down this path

1:04:07

this path like Google like is so much better than

1:04:09

everybody else's search. else's search. Like not really, I don't

1:04:11

feel like it's close. it's close. Like I try other other

1:04:13

ones. like they're well well, that's why the argument, if

1:04:15

you're going to still use search you search is. In fact,

1:04:17

best remedy for this is for Google to be

1:04:19

forced to be forced to be forced to index.

1:04:22

I its I actually pay money

1:04:24

to use Kagi pay they use in

1:04:26

a very kind of clever a

1:04:28

way the Google results along with

1:04:30

other results. Google results, gets the benefit

1:04:32

of all the of the Google. so

1:04:34

it gets the benefit of all the of

1:04:36

the Google without the Google

1:04:38

the Google ads, without the Google algorithmic

1:04:41

of its own its own up at the

1:04:43

top the top. I haven't used I haven't used

1:04:45

Google in stopped using stopped using it

1:04:47

a it long time ago. Oh the

1:04:49

problem is still still in there, right?

1:04:51

And so what the the judge has

1:04:53

to do I think is tell Google

1:04:55

look you got to give companies

1:04:57

like companies like to your index at

1:04:59

either a reasonable fee or no fee. fee

1:05:02

or no fee, no would be a punishment, right?

1:05:04

right? And go ahead. And that's, and that's when

1:05:06

the remedies that the did propose that. And

1:05:08

I think They didn't a long list

1:05:11

of, that. And I is like, well, how

1:05:13

much one. It's a long list of, car got

1:05:15

dented. How much my car got car. How much

1:05:17

do you dented my I'm sorry, how much, got

1:05:19

dented by my construction company, like how much

1:05:21

do you think you should get in

1:05:23

compensation? You do started a million dollars and

1:05:25

you negotiate down how much you asked for everything

1:05:27

knowing that you're going to have to

1:05:29

settle for what you settled for, uh, going a

1:05:31

but dollars and you that Google is down. is the

1:05:33

word that people use people use for searching

1:05:35

something on the internet. That's like, how popular

1:05:37

it is. it is. And this is

1:05:39

another one of those things where people

1:05:42

in this conversation might understand that

1:05:44

there are other tools that there are other nothing

1:05:46

else give you a different perspective,

1:05:48

a different ranking of search results, of search

1:05:50

results. Google is simply the concierge to

1:05:52

the the to I think this might

1:05:54

be one case where Alex's thesis of

1:05:56

the market thesis things might be. things,

1:05:58

might be, might actually hold. I'm more

1:06:00

and more talking to normal people who

1:06:02

are dissatisfied with Google's results. I hear

1:06:04

that a lot more. I 100 %

1:06:06

agree with Alex on this point because

1:06:08

the Mata's ruling was so bizarre when

1:06:11

you read it because almost every paragraph

1:06:13

could be used in a billboard ad

1:06:15

for Google search. Okay, billboard because everything that

1:06:17

he was saying said that it is

1:06:19

the best. It is soon the ascendancy.

1:06:21

It's what everybody wants to use and

1:06:23

it's not because they're being unfair, because

1:06:25

it legitimately is the best. Other companies

1:06:28

don't want to compete with them because

1:06:30

they don't want to start 20 years

1:06:32

of research and spending on it, on

1:06:34

and on and on and on and

1:06:36

on. Nonetheless, we feel as though they're

1:06:38

abusing their market power and so we're

1:06:40

going to Nonetheless, to fix it. It's

1:06:42

not like, I thought that the big

1:06:45

deal, I thought that search was going

1:06:47

to be something, either

1:06:49

a win, a minor, minor, minor win

1:06:51

at best. I thought there would be something

1:06:53

that the DOJ would have to appeal

1:06:55

really to get a win on. I thought

1:06:57

that, I mean, they still got the

1:06:59

ad business antitrust suit over their heads and

1:07:01

that's where they're going to absolutely get

1:07:04

destroyed. I don't think that anybody is benefited

1:07:06

by breaking up Google search. I do

1:07:08

think there could be a benefit by giving

1:07:10

third -party searches and third -party tools access

1:07:12

to their search rankings, not the algorithm, but

1:07:14

at least what is the value of

1:07:16

this link as a result for these words

1:07:18

and get that information back and use

1:07:20

that to build a cooking search engine and

1:07:22

an academic search engine that I think

1:07:24

is more within the ballpark of what's good

1:07:26

for the market and what's good for

1:07:28

users. I guess I think it would still

1:07:31

be like noise. Like, mean, the number

1:07:33

of people that would do that would be

1:07:35

noise and I think that it is,

1:07:37

and I think the era of the government

1:07:39

trying to remedy all these things is

1:07:41

probably over. so, I think that that was

1:07:43

a moment that the government had to

1:07:45

do that and I think they still have

1:07:47

to get to the Supreme Court. I

1:07:49

don't think the Supreme Court is the kind

1:07:51

of court that's gonna think that this

1:07:53

is a good idea. So, I think that

1:07:56

this is... current, you know, know, it could change

1:07:58

and there's lots of things that can

1:08:00

change. things that can change. So, over the next three

1:08:02

or four years, think that the chances of

1:08:04

it succeeding the chances at the level that

1:08:06

the level is asking for, if the DOJ

1:08:08

continues to appeal it, which will be in

1:08:10

question, be in because, you know, it's not

1:08:12

going to be Google because I don't think

1:08:14

because to be Google cares about Google. think

1:08:16

might be, cares know, Tim but it might

1:08:18

be, you know, Tim Apple talking to, uh, talk, know, know,

1:08:21

you know, you know, whispering, like, hey, this is

1:08:23

dumb, you know, know, let's not do

1:08:25

this. And, and not do I think

1:08:27

that I don't, I just don't

1:08:29

think that there's any think that

1:08:31

I I don't know if it's relevant.

1:08:34

I guess I'd probably think more

1:08:36

about it if I thought that Search

1:08:38

had a future, but I just

1:08:40

don't see what the future is when

1:08:42

know if it's my whole family I sits

1:08:44

there and finds things on ChatGPT all

1:08:46

the time. Like just, it's just

1:08:48

like a constant, I thought that search had a know,

1:08:50

but I just the when I but I, When I

1:08:53

need, I needed to figure out how to

1:08:55

do something pretty complex eventually resolve through three pieces

1:08:57

pieces of hardware to output to a

1:08:59

stream. is all I did is BT how

1:09:01

to do to do it and just

1:09:03

ask one piece after the other. find, it

1:09:05

was such a was such a weird connection.

1:09:07

find couldn't find that on the I

1:09:09

I started in Google then in that moment, that

1:09:11

moment, or months ago or whatever, changed

1:09:13

changed everything for me, which is that

1:09:15

I I'd. I with with And if I'm

1:09:17

not sure, then I go to

1:09:20

Google. not sure, then I go to Google, but I rarely, someone

1:09:22

who, we used to joke that

1:09:24

in our I'm it's not what you

1:09:26

know, it's how well you Google. to joke

1:09:28

that in our all that information was out

1:09:30

there, we don't need to figure it out. well now

1:09:32

I'm constantly, I'm using know,

1:09:34

and for other things and,

1:09:36

you know, was out there, we just

1:09:38

feel like I to figure it I can

1:09:40

go a whole day now as someone

1:09:42

who used to using sonnet five or

1:09:44

10 times an hour an hour. at least. now can go a whole

1:09:47

day it can go a whole day without opening.

1:09:49

and I think that I think think that there But

1:09:51

I think we're sitting there building all this legislative

1:09:53

stuff around something that I don't know how relevant they

1:09:55

is. I think they are worried that they don't

1:09:57

know how relevant it is. And I think that

1:09:59

now starting to wait. down with a bunch of legislation

1:10:01

when it's, they're going to be, I think

1:10:03

Google's going to be fighting for its existence

1:10:05

because, you know, Google search and Google ad

1:10:07

words, nothing else at Google really works. Like,

1:10:09

you know, like, you know, like, it's like,

1:10:11

nothing else makes money. Like, nothing else makes

1:10:13

money like ad. Like, I used to, you

1:10:15

know, I've been in a lot of Google

1:10:17

events. And I can tell you, you can

1:10:19

tell when you're at a Google ad event

1:10:22

because it's like, because it's like... looking into

1:10:24

the sun like it and and when you

1:10:26

look at what they're doing but the only

1:10:28

thing that's really generating lots of money at

1:10:30

Google is ads you know like or is

1:10:32

the Google search and display ads and YouTube

1:10:34

you know and and so the the the

1:10:36

I think that this disruption that's happening with

1:10:38

AI around search is the end of search

1:10:40

like I just don't think it's going to

1:10:42

happen that it's going to And so I

1:10:44

you know I didn't think that until six

1:10:46

months ago when I again when I started

1:10:48

asking complex questions I'm writing whole apps without

1:10:50

having to open you know without having to

1:10:52

know how to code like you know like

1:10:54

it's and when you do all of that

1:10:56

I used to Google all of that to

1:10:58

try to figure it all out and I

1:11:00

just don't do that anymore. Yeah I kind

1:11:02

of disagree I still think that most people's

1:11:05

first point of access is Google for myself

1:11:07

I mean I for reasons not unrelated to

1:11:09

Tim Cook's alleged million dollar donation to Trump's

1:11:11

inauguration fund. I had to learn a whole

1:11:13

lot about the Federal Election Commission and how

1:11:15

donations are registered and that sort of stuff.

1:11:17

And the number one, the first place I

1:11:19

went to was Google Gemini, just to ask

1:11:21

for a broad what do I need to

1:11:23

know. But the next step was to Google

1:11:25

Search to find. Okay, now I know I

1:11:27

need to find form FE-13 for each of

1:11:29

these election commissions. I also need to know

1:11:31

what names these election commissions are registered under.

1:11:33

And that's when. ChatGPT, all these search bots.

1:11:35

A. are not going to produce the results

1:11:37

that I wanted and B. If they

1:11:39

did, have I would

1:11:41

have to back back through

1:11:43

Google anyway because I I

1:11:45

wouldn't trust it. it. The AI

1:11:48

is is not a

1:11:50

place where you trust

1:11:52

any fact that it

1:11:54

gives it at this point.

1:11:56

at this point. it's really

1:11:58

good at sending you

1:12:00

on the right direction, right

1:12:02

giving you that overview

1:12:04

that things you can

1:12:06

verify yourself, but it's

1:12:08

not something that I

1:12:10

would use something that All

1:12:12

I'm saying is that

1:12:14

Google has a plan

1:12:16

that goes beyond simply

1:12:18

Google search and involves

1:12:20

keeping that monetized. And lastly, yeah,

1:12:22

yeah, you're absolutely right.

1:12:24

right. The Lastly, The ad, the

1:12:26

business is to slash alphabet, what

1:12:28

the the business is to Apple. It's It's

1:12:31

roughly the same percentage of

1:12:33

their revenue. revenue. If something were

1:12:35

to destroy that market, they'd be

1:12:37

in super, super big trouble. big For

1:12:39

the record, Google has fewer has

1:12:41

fewer great successful profitable bets than Apple

1:12:43

does. Google Cloud is working extremely

1:12:45

well, but it's still in the

1:12:47

launch phase. phase. And The thing is,

1:12:50

like, the appetite for iPhone sales

1:12:52

is not go down any down any time

1:12:54

soon, and and Apple has plenty of time. if two or

1:12:56

in two or three years, Google has to

1:12:58

find a way to replace 52, 53% of 53 % of

1:13:00

its annual revenue, you're in a don't think we're in

1:13:02

don't a position to do that right now. I

1:13:04

guess what I would say is that say is that also

1:13:06

that it's that no other search it it doesn't make

1:13:08

sense to go into the search business now or

1:13:10

to even try to try to if Google suddenly suddenly

1:13:12

just, know know, is disrupted, or told that it has

1:13:14

to do all these things things. it's just

1:13:16

not not a, just not a good business other

1:13:18

people to get into not just google's not

1:13:20

just Google's. Google's the best at what they're doing

1:13:22

at what you're in a deteriorating market why

1:13:24

would you invent Why would you, you know, it's not a

1:13:26

good, I just don't know if it's a good. I disagree and that's all

1:13:28

I have to say. all I have to say. BBC says

1:13:30

Apple has been has been urged to

1:13:33

withdraw out -of -control urged by the alerts urged

1:13:35

by the BBC, I believe, the headline.

1:13:37

but they You read left that out

1:13:39

of the headline. on how You were taught

1:13:41

good piece, the day, Jason, write on how

1:13:43

you were taught day. in the

1:13:45

day, how to write headlines. in

1:13:47

my day. Back in my day

1:13:49

that created clicks, but did it

1:13:51

without hiding information. the problem lot going on

1:13:53

here. a lot going on here.

1:13:55

So the BBC has had its push

1:13:57

push notifications summarized by Apple intelligence in.

1:14:00

what gets created is things that are

1:14:02

factually untrue. And the problem is, and

1:14:04

Apple has said that they'll address it,

1:14:06

but it sounds like they're gonna put

1:14:08

a more prominent warning label on it,

1:14:10

which is not the same as saying

1:14:12

they're gonna fix it. And don't understand

1:14:14

what the feature works like. The warning

1:14:16

would be like, we made this up,

1:14:18

but here's what we think the BBC

1:14:20

is saying. There are a lot of

1:14:22

things going on here. Part of the

1:14:24

problem here is that what Apple is

1:14:26

doing is summarizing a summary. It's they're

1:14:29

summarizing a, if not a headline, a

1:14:31

push notification text written by somebody that's

1:14:33

being sent out through the BBC app.

1:14:35

And it depends. Some of those are

1:14:37

automated. Sometimes the people who write the

1:14:39

headlines write the push notification text. Sometimes

1:14:41

it is the headline. It doesn't matter.

1:14:43

It is a summary made by a

1:14:45

human. And then what Apple is doing

1:14:47

apparently is throwing all of these summaries

1:14:49

in a bin, you know, all together.

1:14:51

into their LLLM and saying summarize this.

1:14:53

And the problem there is that you

1:14:56

get weird crossover, you get mis-parsing of

1:14:58

phrases, and you know, it's an LLLM,

1:15:00

but the challenge here is that you

1:15:02

end up with things that are not

1:15:04

factual. And the BBC has been making

1:15:06

noise about this because it keeps happening

1:15:08

where there was a headline that was

1:15:10

like the shooting suspect of that health

1:15:12

care CEO had made some like gestures

1:15:14

and stuff as he was being led

1:15:16

into court. And Apple summarized, took shooting

1:15:18

suspect and the guy's name and turned

1:15:20

it into that he was shot. Yeah.

1:15:23

Because it misread and it's using that.

1:15:25

It's a big difference. Yeah. So yeah.

1:15:27

So I mean my complaints about modern

1:15:29

headlines being bad are there was a

1:15:31

there was a company called Artifacts that

1:15:33

went under that they had an app

1:15:35

where you could actually mark a headline

1:15:37

as clickbate and have the AI rewrite.

1:15:39

And the AI rewritten headlines. The AI

1:15:41

rewritten headlines were pretty good, but the

1:15:43

thing is, and this is a key

1:15:45

point, the AI headlines were based on

1:15:47

the story text. And here Apple is

1:15:50

rewriting a summary of a story. It

1:15:52

is a summary of a summary. And

1:15:54

of course. it's going do

1:15:56

a bad job with

1:15:58

that so the

1:16:00

question is in the

1:16:02

long run run, I mean, first

1:16:04

off, I think this is an

1:16:06

effect of Apple rushing rushing forward because

1:16:08

I think there are ways you could

1:16:11

do this in terms of classifying

1:16:13

the push the push being a news app

1:16:15

or something else. app or Changing the

1:16:17

behavior of summarization summarization. Maybe you you news the

1:16:19

news app to supply more information and

1:16:21

you you summarize that than just... Is Apple

1:16:23

using the on device model to do Yeah, that's part

1:16:26

of the problem is this is kind

1:16:28

of not a super smart model.

1:16:30

It is, model. but I think that

1:16:32

if it had better data better data. it's

1:16:34

not a stupid model. The The

1:16:36

problem is is it's a summary, summary. Right. And

1:16:38

so there's so little data for

1:16:40

it to infer what's going on

1:16:42

and our human on in can do

1:16:44

it. brains And so it. Yeah. And so like Apple's

1:16:46

Apple has... even responded to stuff like

1:16:48

this before. So like this which is

1:16:50

very brief and very vague, which

1:16:52

saying brief some more labeling later, we'll, you

1:16:54

know, we'll do it's a start. But

1:16:56

I think what really needs to

1:16:59

happen is Apple needs to, you

1:17:01

know, is Apple needs to, you a know, and

1:17:03

Which is fine, it is a beta, but

1:17:05

it's a beta in a final version

1:17:07

of an operating system so a already a

1:17:09

little shaky and it's heavily marketed. so that's

1:17:11

And they don't say in the marketing, shaky,

1:17:13

but it's a a be careful. careful. So I

1:17:15

So I just Apple just needs to

1:17:17

be more diligent here. And I think

1:17:19

we all need to to not be as be

1:17:22

as understanding about the fact that

1:17:24

Apple is trying to struggle to

1:17:26

catch up here, because the fact

1:17:28

the is shipping a feature that

1:17:30

takes news takes news and a certain certain percentage

1:17:32

of it turns it into things that didn't

1:17:34

happen bad. And we should that's bad, right? That's and if they

1:17:36

can't do we should say it's bad and we

1:17:38

should say they need to do better. what they

1:17:40

need to if they can't do better, they need

1:17:42

to turn that feature off until they can

1:17:44

do better. the BBC says, line, that's what they

1:17:47

need to do. the Not only that, here's but need

1:17:49

the BBC says, and here's the BBC says, and here's the BBC says, and Apple

1:17:51

says, and says, BBC blah, blah, blah. the BBC says, here

1:17:53

here's the BBC says, and here's the and here's the logo

1:17:55

for the BBC says, to it. They're basically not

1:17:57

only coming up with things that are says, and

1:17:59

not just a little wrong, completely wrong. It's they're

1:18:01

basically also putting other people on the hook

1:18:03

for it. The BBC and others are very,

1:18:06

very right to be miffed off about this.

1:18:08

And I also think that it's super, super

1:18:10

weak sauce for Apple to simply say, oh,

1:18:12

well, we'll be modifying how these things are

1:18:15

notified. They need to, this is a broken

1:18:17

feature. that spreads misinformation and an error where

1:18:19

misinformation online is one of the biggest crises

1:18:21

that the news industry faces. They need to

1:18:24

terminate this, they need to unplug this feature

1:18:26

right now and come back with it in

1:18:28

18.3, 18.4. And you're absolutely right, like it's

1:18:30

not just, you can't hide behind, oh well,

1:18:33

we're still working on it, it is a

1:18:35

beta. Not only are they putting it out

1:18:37

as anybody who has the full version, the

1:18:40

mainstream edition of the golden version of iOS

1:18:42

can use this, but they're also, all their

1:18:44

marketing is, wow, it's part of Apple Intelligence,

1:18:46

it's magic, and it makes everything better. Like,

1:18:49

no, it doesn't, this feature. is bad bad

1:18:51

bad you need to take responsibility for what

1:18:53

it is doing and and just basically turn

1:18:55

it off it's perfectly fine to this you

1:18:58

aren't the first organization that's had this problem

1:19:00

with AI summaries of these kinds certainly not

1:19:02

to say nothing of how early you are

1:19:04

in your adventure towards implementing AI No harm,

1:19:07

no excuse me. It's not embarrassing or humiliating,

1:19:09

but if you decide that no, it's perfectly

1:19:11

fine to keep this feature going, even though

1:19:13

we know it can cause harm, that's not

1:19:16

the responsible thing to do. They need to

1:19:18

terminate this feature and come back to it

1:19:20

later. Fair enough. What's your prescription in that

1:19:23

art? You wrote a great article, by the

1:19:25

way. I appreciate the nod to Ben Folds,

1:19:27

although I doubt very many people have got

1:19:29

that. Fred Jones. It's a Ben Foulds deep

1:19:32

cut. Thank you. It's a wonderful, wonderful song.

1:19:34

But what is your prescription? Maybe they could

1:19:36

do it artifact did. Yeah, I think there

1:19:38

are a lot of things they could do

1:19:41

and that the fact that they didn't is

1:19:43

because they rushed the feature out because they're

1:19:45

rushing all of Apple Intelligence out. And that's

1:19:47

why I think that we need to not

1:19:50

cut them as much slack because I think

1:19:52

we need to say this isn't good

1:19:54

enough enough, up to

1:19:56

your standards, your standards, that could

1:19:59

classify those apps by

1:20:01

what they're doing. even

1:20:03

they could a make a

1:20:06

and say, you know

1:20:08

what, we're going to

1:20:10

turn off summarization of

1:20:12

news headlines now. Or

1:20:15

they could do something

1:20:17

like something like headline headline. on its

1:20:19

own own and then put them together. Cause

1:20:21

I think one of the of things they

1:20:23

may be doing is putting them together

1:20:25

in a them a bushel a summarizing the bushel.

1:20:27

And you end up getting kind of

1:20:29

like leakage between headlines. I don't know that

1:20:31

for sure. That's just a guess that that

1:20:33

they're feeding different headlines feeding over, which is

1:20:35

also bad. They could also build something

1:20:37

in build something in where And again, this this takes time

1:20:39

because you got to work with developers with

1:20:41

you got to work in the app

1:20:43

store and you might need to build a

1:20:45

new API. and you might I think it's a

1:20:48

great idea. The reason I brought up

1:20:50

the I brought that you could summarize full articles

1:20:52

is is. If the comes comes with a URL

1:20:54

as well as a payload. your LLLM, go look at

1:20:56

the have your and go look at the

1:20:58

URL and summarize that instead point in my

1:21:00

is, and this was my point in

1:21:02

my follow -up article, pretty good at are actually

1:21:04

pretty good at writing headlines. If you

1:21:06

give them the whole article, if you

1:21:08

give them 8 words words or 4 ,000

1:21:10

words or even 1 ,000 words, a they

1:21:13

can do a pretty good job at

1:21:15

writing you a headline. But when they're

1:21:17

given 20 words or 10 words, all

1:21:19

they're doing is rephrasing based on very

1:21:21

little information. So I think that that they're, you

1:21:23

letting apps opt which I know I know

1:21:25

that doesn't to do because it wants apps

1:21:27

to take advantage of this feature, letting

1:21:29

classes of apps like news apps opt out

1:21:31

out, or changing the game a of the game

1:21:34

a little bit so that there's more information

1:21:36

that they can glean for their summary.

1:21:38

All of these are options. Some of them

1:21:40

are harder to implement than others, but than

1:21:42

others, but like I think. The The problem is just, you

1:21:44

you can't just throw this out there and

1:21:46

say, okay, we got it. And I

1:21:48

know it's a beta, a but like, of being

1:21:50

a beta is that it's a on the

1:21:52

developer to take the feedback and make changes.

1:21:54

I And I think we risk got thinking

1:21:57

they got away with this. And I think

1:21:59

that's why - BBC shouting like this is

1:22:01

really valuable because it's them saying this

1:22:03

is not okay you have a lot

1:22:05

of work to do here this is

1:22:07

this is not how we want our

1:22:09

content to be presented to our customers

1:22:11

and I think that's fair enough. Independent

1:22:13

press organizations are also calling for the

1:22:15

same thing so they're not it's not

1:22:17

a quite problem. I know that this

1:22:19

is going to sound basic. Where is

1:22:21

this showing up? And the reason I

1:22:23

ask is I don't ever see any,

1:22:26

any, any summer. I've tried turned off

1:22:28

the AI summaries. If you have AI

1:22:30

summaries turned on and you have a

1:22:32

news app that feeds you lots of

1:22:34

headlines, like the BBC app, if you

1:22:36

opt to have them fed to you,

1:22:38

then in the lock screen or in

1:22:40

the notification center, instead of seeing a

1:22:42

stack of headlines, you'll see a single

1:22:44

notification bubble that will summarize with little

1:22:46

semi columns in between a few of

1:22:48

those headlines together, which again. as an

1:22:50

idea of you, you know, 10 push

1:22:52

notifications have gone by, we're going to

1:22:54

tell you what you really need to

1:22:56

know in a really quick blurt. Like,

1:22:58

that's okay. That's not a bad idea.

1:23:00

The problem is when it says, Raphael

1:23:02

Nidal comes out as gay, when that's

1:23:04

not the headline, that's not the story,

1:23:06

it's not true, but the BBC now

1:23:08

is allegedly saying that because it's been

1:23:10

filtered true. I don't have any notifications.

1:23:13

I don't have any notifications on it.

1:23:15

It doesn't sound like you, it doesn't

1:23:17

sound like you. It doesn't sound like

1:23:19

you. What is our, there's the, by

1:23:21

the way, the New York Times headline.

1:23:23

I never see that. Trudeau will be

1:23:25

the next Congress. I think that's pretty

1:23:27

darn exciting. I just got that one.

1:23:29

And it's not just these summaries either.

1:23:31

Remember that it's one of the things

1:23:33

that Apple Intelligence was supposed to benefit

1:23:35

us for is that, hey, we're going

1:23:37

to make sure that we're going to

1:23:39

make sure that we're not going to

1:23:41

give you alerts for every single email

1:23:43

or message that you get. We'll make

1:23:45

sure that the most important ones, I

1:23:47

get special alerts, but it's too dumb

1:23:49

to know that yeah, the reason why

1:23:51

spammers put extremely, things, it's because it's

1:23:53

attention getting it. So now

1:23:55

spammers are getting

1:23:58

at the top of

1:24:00

my are getting at the top

1:24:02

of my mom,

1:24:04

my friends, my doctors.

1:24:06

It's not good. my

1:24:08

doctors, it's do we

1:24:10

feel about it with

1:24:12

notifications? about it with I mean, I

1:24:15

mean notifications. They

1:24:17

are also also sometimes hysterically wrong,

1:24:19

but I think it's not quite

1:24:21

the same, right? I wish same,

1:24:23

were better, but I think

1:24:25

they have more context because they

1:24:27

get to summarize the entire

1:24:29

text of the message. they get to summarize

1:24:32

wrong. We've seen some really

1:24:34

crazy. So absolutely. I think that

1:24:36

there's potential really be useful, But I

1:24:38

not, know, there's potential there stakes feel

1:24:40

a little bit lower to me

1:24:42

it's not, you know, and the stakes these. bit lower

1:24:44

mean, me than. When I first turned

1:24:46

it on, on, my ring doorbell were multiple people

1:24:48

at my front door. I got a

1:24:50

little nervous nervous I realized, so that's just

1:24:52

a rollup of all the different people

1:24:55

that came and went over a five

1:24:57

hour period. over a like they were there

1:24:59

with pitchforks and torches forks and torches, and I

1:25:01

bar the door, but that wasn't it. that

1:25:03

So you it. So it's funny. it's funny. I I

1:25:05

think that one's useful. I don't, but

1:25:07

the difference is it's not claiming to come

1:25:09

from a news organization. news organization. think that think

1:25:11

the simplest things that could do to

1:25:13

please partially could do to simply say, guess what?

1:25:15

Every notification that you get that's been filtered

1:25:17

through Apple Intelligence has a special background

1:25:20

on it. been That is - There you go.

1:25:22

Just give it a different shade of

1:25:24

colors background on with this. Just give That's fine. different shade

1:25:26

of colors right, let's take a little break

1:25:28

more to come. Yeah, You're watching Yeah. right, let's take a

1:25:30

little the twit podcasting network.

1:25:32

is our, Weekly. By the the when did we,

1:25:34

when did you start you start Alex? This

1:25:36

was, it would have been, I

1:25:38

think would week I think, this week in 2000, I I

1:25:40

think it's 2006. it Cause it was

1:25:42

Macworld Expo. The Expo, we we around with with

1:25:45

Emory Wells and and you and I, and

1:25:47

we covered it. And then we, that

1:25:49

week we recorded a whole bunch

1:25:51

of episodes that took me a long

1:25:53

time to put together. So this

1:25:55

is the 19th anniversary of Mac So this

1:25:57

I think it is. anniversary is, Break.

1:25:59

our 20th anniversary for a twit in

1:26:02

April. We've been doing this a long

1:26:04

time almost as long as you Jason.

1:26:06

It's pretty amazing. So happy birthday to

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1:28:12

I'm doing Matt's podcast. a few days.

1:28:14

I have to check my calendar. I

1:28:16

remember I'm doing that. It's coming up.

1:28:18

All right. Strava integration into fitness plus.

1:28:20

Nothing. I don't exercise enough to have

1:28:22

a comment on this. I don't use

1:28:24

strava. I actually I really like fitness

1:28:26

plus as it is in Apple's activity.

1:28:29

I've been using something called gentler streak,

1:28:31

which is basically the same stuff Apple

1:28:33

tells you, but in a nicer way.

1:28:35

I like that. I love the, I

1:28:37

love all the apple health. I mean,

1:28:39

I think that it's so valuable. It's

1:28:41

so great. I finally, my. My wife

1:28:43

was kind of like, I don't want

1:28:45

to watch, I don't want to watch,

1:28:47

I don't want to watch, I don't

1:28:50

want to watch, and then she said,

1:28:52

do you have any of the old

1:28:54

Apple watches, right around Christmas, so I

1:28:56

very quickly got our 10. Like I

1:28:58

just went and bought her, bought her,

1:29:00

like here, I want to make sure

1:29:02

you have a great experience, and I

1:29:04

want to make sure you have a

1:29:06

great experience, and she just really enjoys

1:29:08

it. like if I go to swim,

1:29:10

then I don't have my watch or

1:29:13

my watch battery, you know, if I

1:29:15

if I if the battery ran low

1:29:17

or whatever, I feel like the swim

1:29:19

doesn't count. I have to go do

1:29:21

something else. You know, like so, so

1:29:23

the, uh, the tracking of that has

1:29:25

been kind of amazing. Like, and just

1:29:27

all of that, I think that that's

1:29:29

the biggest, I think Apple had a

1:29:31

lot of assumptions about what I think

1:29:34

we talked about before, but what the

1:29:36

watch would, what the watch would, what

1:29:38

the watch would, what the watch would,

1:29:40

what the watch would, what the watch

1:29:42

would, what the watch would, what the

1:29:44

watch would, what the watch would, what

1:29:46

the watch would, what the watch would,

1:29:48

what the, what the watch would, what

1:29:50

the watch would, what the watch would,

1:29:52

what the watch would, what the watch

1:29:55

would, what the, what the watch, what

1:29:57

the watch, what the watch, what the

1:29:59

watch, what the watch, what the watch,

1:30:01

what, what, what, what, like that's the

1:30:03

lock-in. I can't imagine using something else

1:30:05

at this point. But I think their

1:30:07

their fitness stuff is great. I haven't

1:30:09

found a space that I wanted to

1:30:11

do. I've done it a little bit,

1:30:13

but hadn't found a space that I

1:30:16

really found there was the right space

1:30:18

to do it in. But I think

1:30:20

that the what's fun as a production

1:30:22

person is to watch what happens when

1:30:24

someone builds fitness videos where they used

1:30:26

all the money. Like the production value

1:30:28

on the business was so hard. Well,

1:30:30

they're gonna have some Strava athletes in

1:30:32

the fitness videos. I love the fitness

1:30:34

videos. There was a, you know, there

1:30:37

was an Apple Newsroom mark. So it's

1:30:39

this big enough video side to put

1:30:41

a Newsroom piece in it in addition

1:30:43

to a whole bunch of like little

1:30:45

new features for fitness plus, such as

1:30:47

pickleball. You can now, you got credit

1:30:49

for like. The fist fights you get

1:30:51

into with tennis players as you're trying

1:30:53

to use the same court, that should

1:30:55

also count too because that's very, very

1:30:58

aerobicic. And so, as, and manages your

1:31:00

blood pressure and stress levels. But yeah,

1:31:02

so the Strava stuff is that. Essentially,

1:31:04

there's integration between fitness, the fitness app

1:31:06

and the Strava app. And also, the

1:31:08

Strava app can get access to data

1:31:10

off your phone, that's fitness related and

1:31:12