0:00

I see. Here's

0:37

another episode of mackerel and cheese

0:39

with your host Steve Grumbai All

0:41

right folks, this is Steve with

0:43

mackerel and cheese We're back into

0:46

the unions folks because let's just

0:48

be fair You've watched students at

0:50

encampments around the country showing up

0:53

to fight back against the genocide

0:55

and the politics didn't listen.

0:57

You've watched kids you've watched

0:59

people you've watched palsy You've watched

1:02

everyone go in the streets try

1:04

to get attention They haven't

1:06

done it. They have not made changes.

1:08

They're still going steady strong with

1:11

a full funding of the genocide

1:13

in Gaza right now. And I'm like,

1:15

okay, so where do we look? Where do

1:17

we turn? How do we make change

1:19

in a system that doesn't want

1:22

to be changed? The system that

1:24

doesn't have in-system mechanisms that

1:26

allow us to have agency

1:28

to make the kind of

1:30

changes, worker-led, people-led kind

1:32

of changes. And so I have

1:35

long since been putting my hope in my

1:37

faith, if you will, into the labor movement,

1:39

which is trying to come

1:41

back, trying to revitalize itself.

1:43

We've seen flips and spurts across

1:45

the country. We've seen Amazon workers.

1:48

We've seen John Deere. We've seen

1:50

teachers. We've seen all kinds of

1:52

different movements of labor to show

1:54

that there is a movement right

1:56

now. UAW is Sean Fane. You've

1:58

seen that movement. You've seen labor

2:01

saying, hey, don't forget about us.

2:03

We're still here. But the tactics

2:05

of the past have been business

2:07

unions, labor unions that are really

2:09

about the business floor, really not

2:11

class struggle, not worker led. They

2:13

tend to have that top down

2:15

strategy. And folks, if you've ever

2:17

been a part of a top

2:19

down strategy type union, you've probably

2:21

not been terribly thrilled by it.

2:23

You haven't seen the kind of

2:25

results over the years. And so

2:27

this is why my guest today

2:29

is so exciting. Eric Blanc, who

2:31

is an author, we'll talk about

2:33

his book here in a moment,

2:35

but he's also a director of

2:37

the worker-to-worker collaborative, co-founder of the

2:39

Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee, professor of

2:41

labor studies, author of the sub-stack

2:43

labor politics, and author of the

2:45

forthcoming monograph, we are the union,

2:47

how worker-to-worker organizing. It is revitalizing

2:49

labor and winning big. You see

2:51

Press 2025. Without further ado, I

2:53

want to just say hello to

2:55

my guest, Eric Blunk. Welcome to

2:57

the show, sir. Yeah, thanks so

2:59

much for having me on. Absolutely.

3:01

You know, you are like the

3:03

guy that I'm looking to for

3:05

some hope here, man. I've read

3:07

some of your work out there

3:09

on Jacobin and some of the

3:11

other interesting things you've written regarding

3:13

worker to worker organizing. And I

3:15

think that when I hear people

3:18

talk about, hey, it's got to

3:20

be grassroots. Hey, it's got to

3:22

be the people. Hey, the union

3:24

can't be beyond the people, the

3:26

laborers. You've got to stay in

3:28

step with them. And to see

3:30

you talking about worker-to-worker kind of

3:32

grassroots organizing is conspiring. And I

3:34

was wondering, maybe you could talk

3:36

a little bit about that. Yeah.

3:38

The reality is that we are

3:40

in really bleak times and I

3:42

agree with you that labor movement

3:44

is. for me, the major source

3:46

of hope and potential for turning

3:48

things around. And the goodness, it's

3:50

not just sort of pie in

3:52

the sky, but the labor movement

3:54

actually does have momentum. It has

3:56

been growing. It has been winning.

3:58

Not to the scale that we

4:00

need it to, but we can

4:02

see since 2020 in particular, really

4:04

the rebirth of a bottom-up grassroot

4:06

style organizing, but in the 21st

4:08

century, you know, so it's in

4:10

many ways like the 1930s when

4:12

labor movement made its big breakthrough.

4:14

with the sort of grassroots momentum.

4:16

But it's calibrated for our new

4:18

reality. So it uses a lot

4:20

of digital tools. It's not just

4:22

hard industry. You know, we've seen

4:24

auto workers, Amazon workers. But we've

4:26

also seen graduate students. We've seen

4:28

Starbucks workers, journalists. We've seen doctors

4:30

organizing. So it's really across the

4:32

board, across the economy. And the

4:34

thing driving afford is workers taking

4:36

the initiative to organize their coworkers

4:39

without having to wait. for an

4:41

established union to come in and

4:43

sort of give them resources off

4:45

the bat. Oftentimes these drives start

4:47

from below. And then many times

4:49

they'll connect with a union down

4:51

the road because they want legal

4:53

support and things like this, but

4:55

it's really workers driving it forward.

4:57

And it's workers training other workers

4:59

across the country. So in Starbucks,

5:01

you know, you might remember they

5:03

won one shot in Buffalo. And

5:05

then it set off a chain

5:07

reaction, an explosion, and they didn't

5:09

have enough staff to train like

5:11

you would do in a standard

5:13

model. workers across the country. So

5:15

they had to let workers training

5:17

over Zoom, other workers all across

5:19

the US, how to win and

5:21

organize. And so you see this

5:23

real effervescence of unionism. We've seen

5:25

it revitalizing unions like United Auto

5:27

Workers. And this I think poses

5:29

a way forward. Unfortunately, most unions

5:31

are not invested in this model

5:33

yet. Most unions aren't trying to

5:35

put real resources into new organizing.

5:37

What happens to this movement really

5:39

remains to be seen. It's an

5:41

open question. whether the labor movement

5:43

will seize this movement and kind

5:45

of get pressured into seizing this

5:47

movement from below before it's too

5:49

late. You know, I talked to

5:51

folks from the AFL CIO in

5:53

Vermont and these guys are straight

5:55

up ready to fight man. They're

5:57

renegades and they've got a real

5:59

can-do spirit and I've spoken to

6:02

several members and it gave me

6:04

a lot of hope and I've

6:06

also talked to Joe Burns who's

6:08

the author of class struggle unionism

6:10

and it seems like in order

6:12

for unions to really have the

6:14

kind of impact they need to

6:16

be beyond their own workplace. It

6:18

needs to be... larger than that

6:20

one small spot and yet we

6:22

jump up too far ahead. It's

6:24

like it sounds good in theory.

6:26

That's how we'd like it to

6:28

be, but it's got to start

6:30

somewhere. And that's what I think

6:32

is interesting about the stuff that

6:34

you've written. I don't really think

6:36

I understand fully what it means

6:38

when you say worker to worker

6:40

because I know amongst, you know,

6:42

activists, we talk to each other,

6:44

we use various pieces of social

6:46

media. chat programs, etc. to communicate

6:48

and maybe we go out and

6:50

we do an action or maybe

6:52

we go out and do a

6:54

protest or a march or you

6:56

know something else. What does it

6:58

mean to do worker to worker

7:00

unions? Because let's be fair, the

7:02

difference between a worker in a

7:04

job and an activist is that

7:06

a worker can get fired. A

7:08

worker without a union just trying

7:10

to start one up doing it

7:12

person to person. runs a great

7:14

risk because we're much stronger as

7:16

a fist than we are as

7:18

a finger. And we've dealt with

7:20

a lot of people in this

7:23

world that are soloists that are,

7:25

you know, just sort of, I

7:27

don't want to see self-aggrandizing, but

7:29

they can't imagine working in solidarity.

7:31

How does a worker-to-worker organizing tactic

7:33

work? Sure. So yeah, let's get

7:35

into it. The first thing maybe

7:37

to help clarify is to compare

7:39

it to what the dominant model

7:41

is right now, which I call

7:43

staff intensive unionism. and seven intensive

7:45

unionism. It's sort of a catch-all

7:47

term, but what it has in

7:49

common in all the different iterations

7:51

is that it requires a lot

7:53

of paid staff to help a

7:55

union drive move forward. The norm

7:57

for unions these days is to

7:59

pay for one staffer for every

8:01

100 workers that you want to

8:03

unionize. And so it's a really,

8:05

really expensive and staff heavy model.

8:07

So worker to worker unionism at

8:09

its core is moving away from

8:11

that model and finding ways for

8:13

workers to do a lot of

8:15

the tasks that normally and still

8:17

prevalently are done by staff. So

8:19

for instance. Instead of having a

8:21

staff full-time organizer training a drive,

8:23

which is the norm, as I

8:25

mentioned before, the Starbucks drive, but

8:27

then also, we've seen this across

8:29

the US, not just Starbucks, but

8:31

we've seen it a lot of

8:33

these different workers and worker drives,

8:35

we'll have workers training other workers.

8:37

Because one of the crucial things

8:39

in organizing, there's skills involved. It's

8:41

a high-risk situation, as you mentioned,

8:44

people can get fired. And it's

8:46

not obvious. It's not just intuitive,

8:48

how do you get a majority

8:50

of your coworkers workers on board.

8:52

So there's a lot of accumulated

8:54

experience over the last decades and

8:56

more about the tactics needed to

8:58

win an effective union fight, you

9:00

know, things like mapping out your

9:02

workplace, identifying leaders, how to have

9:04

one-on-one conversations, how to prepare your

9:06

coworkers or what the boss is

9:08

going to do, how you have

9:10

an escalating campaign, how do you

9:12

test your level of support? And

9:14

so the question is how do

9:16

we pass on those type of

9:18

skills to enough workers so that

9:20

we can reverse the decline of

9:22

the labor movement? So staff intensive

9:24

unionism does this by hiring staffers

9:26

and then trying to have staff

9:28

people train workers. And I think

9:30

in fairness at its best that

9:32

can work. It's not ideal, but

9:34

a good staff organizer can train

9:36

workers to then organize their coworkers.

9:38

The problem is there's just not

9:40

enough staff and enough money to

9:42

do this for millions of workers.

9:44

That's my main criticism of this

9:46

model. You just can't get the

9:48

type of mass movement we need

9:50

by relying on staff. even the

9:52

best stuff. So what worker- worker

9:54

unionism does is three things in

9:56

particular. One of them I already

9:58

mentioned is that workers are training

10:00

other workers. So you're not relying

10:02

on staff to train a new

10:04

drive that wants to organize workers

10:07

are doing that. Another thing is

10:09

that workers are self-organizing before they

10:11

affiliate with a union. So what

10:13

we see all across the economy

10:15

right now is workers taking the

10:17

lead to start talking to their

10:19

coworkers, start moving towards things like

10:21

petitions, trying to get a majority

10:23

of coworkers on board, and then

10:25

only after they've cohered themselves. And

10:27

then they reach out to a

10:29

union rather than vice versa. And

10:31

so it changes a whole dynamic

10:33

because the union hasn't had to

10:35

sort of pay for a bunch

10:37

of staff to get it off

10:39

the ground. And then also the

10:41

relationship between the workers and the

10:43

union is more of a partnership.

10:45

It's not a relationship of deference

10:47

and of just relying on the

10:49

established union. There's a real partnership

10:51

that happens when workers take the

10:53

lead and have more agency. And

10:55

then the third and final thing

10:57

is that unlike in a lot

10:59

of staff-intensive campaigns in worker-to-worker drives,

11:01

they have a decision-making over the

11:03

whole course of the effort. And

11:05

this is something that's often not

11:07

the case in union drives. Oftentimes,

11:09

it's sort of full-time organizers are

11:11

making a lot of crucial decisions

11:13

about the big questions of the

11:15

campaign. And worker-to-worker drives, workers themselves

11:17

are deciding, what do we do?

11:19

What is the political stances we're

11:21

going to take to win? And

11:23

just to give one example, ties

11:25

back to what we're saying before,

11:28

the Starbucks campaign, one of the

11:30

crucial turning points. that helped them

11:32

make a big breakthrough that were

11:34

Starbucks to come to the bargaining

11:36

table earlier this year was the

11:38

union came out for very strong

11:40

stance around Palestine and solidarity with

11:42

Gaza and it created this knockoff

11:44

effect that ended up leading to

11:46

a mass boycott that hurt Starbucks

11:48

the tune of $11 billion. And

11:50

there's just no way that if

11:52

workers hadn't been in the driving

11:54

seat of this campaign that they

11:56

would have done such a risky

11:58

thing. very early on, just very

12:00

soon after October 7th, to take

12:02

the initiative. stand very clearly in

12:04

solidarity with Palestine. And so it

12:06

shows you again, workers when they

12:08

have full democracy, full strategic say

12:10

over the campaign, it leads them

12:12

to take bigger risks, be more

12:14

militant, and this is on the

12:16

whole a very different model from

12:18

staff intensive unionism, and it's one

12:20

that I think can scale by

12:22

the millions. So let me just

12:24

ask this question. So if I'm

12:26

looking at. individuals like a multi-level

12:28

marketing kind of thing you know

12:30

I tell two people and so

12:32

forth that is shown to be

12:34

useful outside of this kind of

12:36

construct is that kind of what

12:38

you're talking about within the workspace

12:40

and how would that play out

12:42

I mean obviously have to be

12:44

somewhat cautious because boss is listening

12:46

in and sober how do you

12:49

without the protection of a union?

12:51

do this within a corporate structure?

12:53

Sure, I mean, all good organizing,

12:55

and I think this is what

12:57

you're getting at, all good workplace

12:59

organizing is fundamentally worker to worker,

13:01

which is to say that the

13:03

people who are best positioned to

13:05

win over other workers to understanding

13:07

the need for collective organization and

13:09

the union are not folks outside

13:11

of the company, it's not staff

13:13

organizers or that they can support.

13:15

It's people who are in the

13:17

trenches. who are there on the

13:19

shop floor, who are there at

13:21

the office, who are there at

13:23

the factory with you, because they're

13:25

experiencing it. And so, yeah, the

13:27

role of worker organizers fundamentally is

13:29

to talk with other co-workers about

13:31

what the problems are at work,

13:33

to identify what are the things

13:35

that are making them angry, what

13:37

are their fears, because a lot

13:39

of times people complain about jobs.

13:41

But most people don't think there's

13:43

anything you can do about it

13:45

except for quit. And so what

13:47

organizers do when they're worker organizers

13:49

is they talk through these issues

13:51

with their coworkers and they say,

13:53

hey, but look, if you tried

13:55

to go as an individual to

13:57

the boss and ask for a

13:59

raise. what happened, right? Or what

14:01

do you think what happened? Most

14:03

people say, yeah, I don't think

14:05

I would get anything, or I

14:07

tried, and they just sort of

14:10

ignored me. And what an organizer

14:12

says is, well, what if we

14:14

all go, you know, what if

14:16

we all say we need a

14:18

raise, or we need better working

14:20

conditions, or we need a more

14:22

regular scheduling, could they ignore us

14:24

all? That's the fundamental conversation that

14:26

drives unionization that drives unionization unionization,

14:28

over and over and over and

14:30

over and over again. That's the

14:32

heart of unionism. It's always been

14:34

the heart of unionism. And I

14:36

think that the recent efforts across

14:38

the country are showing how effect

14:40

that remains. So let me ask

14:42

you this, you know, within the

14:44

space that we see today, obviously

14:46

there is a, I think it's

14:48

more prevalent than ever, the bystander

14:50

syndrome, the, you know, hey, somebody

14:52

else is going to take care

14:54

of it. I don't have to

14:56

do this. And I think we

14:58

see this. in life right outside

15:00

of the workplace, but I know

15:02

I see it in activism. Lots

15:04

of lots of activists sitting on

15:06

the sidelines watching the few do

15:08

the stuff that the many need

15:10

to really be chipping in and

15:12

helping with. How do you prevent

15:14

bystander syndrome within this kind of

15:16

environment? Yeah, I mean in some

15:18

way that's the fundamental question, right?

15:20

The fundamental question is how do

15:22

we as organizers? help activate a

15:24

majority of our co-workers or a

15:26

majority of the working class. Like

15:28

that's the $64,000 question. And in

15:30

some ways, obviously it's difficult for

15:33

very real reasons, not least of

15:35

which is the fact that particularly

15:37

at work when you organize or

15:39

taking a real risk. So look,

15:41

it's understandable why if your family's

15:43

depending on when you got to

15:45

pay rent, you got to not

15:47

lose your health care and all

15:49

things like this, that you're going

15:51

to think twice before... signing union

15:53

card if you think it's going

15:55

to lead you to get fired,

15:57

right? And that type of risk

15:59

is real. So I think that the

16:01

bystander syndrome, particularly when we

16:03

look at the workplace, let's just leave it

16:05

to that question for now, is fundamentally

16:08

a question of fear. There's very few

16:10

workers who don't want improvements at their

16:12

job, and even there's very few workers

16:14

who wouldn't want to see a union.

16:16

And all of the polls are sort

16:19

of off the charts for unions these

16:21

days. But there's a real fear factor

16:23

because labor law doesn't protect. in a very

16:25

meaningful way, the right to unionize

16:27

in this country. So what do

16:29

you do given that circumstance? Well,

16:31

part of it is you need core

16:33

organizers, you know, people who maybe are

16:35

out there listening to take the initiative,

16:38

you can't just wait for other people.

16:40

So it does require folks who

16:42

feel very strongly about the issues

16:44

and feel very strongly about maybe

16:46

just the changes that need to happen

16:48

at work. You need people to take the

16:50

initiative, but it can't just stop

16:53

there. Stick with them. By definition,

16:55

a union is a unity of a

16:57

majority of your coworkers. And so the

16:59

steps that you take to get your

17:01

coworkers to stop being spectators and to

17:03

jump into the fray is first, you

17:06

ask to start talking to them. You meet

17:08

up or coffee or talk to them after

17:10

work or talk to them in your lunch

17:12

break. And you try to find out what

17:14

are the issues that at your work are

17:16

widely felt and are deeply felt. Because

17:19

different people that might have different

17:21

concerns. maybe it's like the manager was really

17:23

mean to you personally, but other people haven't

17:25

had the experience. What you need to do

17:27

if you're going to try to get a

17:30

majority of people to become active participants

17:32

is you need to find the issues that

17:34

are widely felt so that a majority of

17:36

workers feel strongly about, but that are sort

17:38

of deeply felt that they would be willing

17:40

potentially to take a risk on, right? And so

17:43

that might be something like, yeah, we need

17:45

better health care. We need them to provide

17:47

better or cheaper health care at work because

17:49

my family right now is struggling to survive

17:51

and we need to stop paying these insane

17:53

copays. Maybe that's a widely felt issue. And

17:55

so then the question becomes, okay, we know what the

17:57

issues are, we know what we need to see

17:59

change. and then you have to talk

18:01

through with your coworkers, what could

18:03

be done collectively? And the problem,

18:05

this is the catch-22 of organizing,

18:07

is workers don't necessarily feel their

18:10

own power. People feel atomized. People

18:12

feel nothing can change. And so

18:14

the way you start to shift

18:16

that perception is by baby steps.

18:18

You don't start all at once.

18:20

We're going to try to go

18:22

out and strike. If you do

18:24

something, can we at our workplace?

18:26

What if we all were... a

18:28

sticker the same day saying we

18:30

deserve a raise if maybe you're

18:32

working at a public-facing coffee shop

18:34

or something like that? Or what

18:36

if we just all collectively signed

18:38

a letter to management asking for

18:40

these changes? You don't have to

18:42

talk about union, but let's see

18:44

if we can get all of

18:46

our coworkers or a majority of

18:48

our coworkers to sign a petition

18:50

to management to the corporate asking

18:52

for these changes. So you can

18:54

take these baby steps that get

18:56

people to see that they're not

18:58

alone and that their coworkers will...

19:00

go with them if they take

19:02

that step. And by doing this

19:04

sort of escalating campaign where you

19:06

go from the literalist estimate to

19:08

middle ass to eventually something as

19:10

ambitious as going on strike, that's

19:12

the process in which people who

19:14

even are hesitant at first can

19:16

have the confidence that if they

19:18

take an action that they're not

19:20

going to be sort of left

19:22

hanging, that actually it's going to

19:24

be part of something bigger. And

19:26

so we've seen that happen over

19:28

and over and over again. That's

19:30

basically with the process of unionization.

19:32

and takes a lot of work.

19:34

I think part of the difficulty

19:36

is the process of this type

19:38

of deep organizing is very labor

19:40

intensive. It's not like you just

19:42

post something online and then, bam,

19:44

people come out. It requires a

19:46

lot of work. And I think

19:48

the tradition of activists in the

19:50

US, frankly, is a lot of

19:52

people like putting hot takes online

19:54

and don't necessarily have the patience

19:56

for this sort of deeper organizing.

19:58

But ultimately, it's this deeper form

20:00

of organizing that builds real power.

20:02

It's really incredibly well said. I

20:04

want to take you to an

20:06

article that you wrote right after

20:08

the UAW's defeat at the Mercedes

20:10

plant. Alabama. I don't know if

20:12

it's controversial, but it may sound

20:14

controversial, that they got crushed. But

20:16

if labor wants to win big,

20:18

it can't be afraid to lose

20:20

big. So it's kind of like

20:22

the whole scared money don't make

20:24

money approach that the capitalists say.

20:26

But from a labor perspective, you've

20:28

got to kind of fight fire

20:30

with fires, what I'm hearing you

20:32

say there. Can you elaborate on

20:34

that? Sure. So as I mentioned

20:36

before, labor law in this country

20:38

is broken. And that's part of

20:40

the reason why most unions are

20:42

very hesitant towards taking the initiative

20:44

around new organizing. And so the

20:46

norm for unions today, sort of

20:48

established unions, is to be very,

20:50

very, very riskabers. And part of

20:52

what that means is they will

20:54

generally only take on campaigns and

20:57

union drives that they know from

20:59

the get-go or that they assess

21:01

from very early on, will have

21:03

a very high likelihood of succeeding.

21:05

And so, you know, we have

21:07

good data on this because the

21:09

government tracks union win rates. If

21:11

you go back even just to

21:13

1970s, unions won about half of

21:15

the drives that they launched, you

21:17

know, you have to run an

21:19

election and they lost about half

21:21

the elections. Ironically, sounds maybe counterintuitive,

21:23

but as the number of union

21:25

elections has declined, so since the

21:27

80s, just support for new organizing

21:29

and support from established unions to

21:31

try to grow, really bottom line,

21:33

it's just tanked. As unions are...

21:35

investing less and less in organizing,

21:37

their win rates are actually going

21:39

up. So even though they're running

21:41

far fewer campaigns, you know, like

21:43

a fifth of the campaigns of

21:45

the 1970s, they're winning these far

21:47

more often. So the win rate

21:49

of unions these days is like

21:51

70, 80%. And so you might

21:53

ask, well, that seems, that doesn't

21:55

make sense, you know, why are

21:57

they running fewer elections, but they're

21:59

winning more of them? Well, the

22:01

reason is that they're choosing easier

22:03

targets and that they're only sort

22:05

of going forward with campaigns once

22:07

they've met. a whole series of

22:09

benchmarks that makes it very likely

22:11

that they will win. But the

22:13

problem is that there's all sorts

22:15

of workers who don't fit into

22:17

these sort of narrow frameworks for

22:19

what the union believes is necessary.

22:21

So just to give a concrete

22:23

example, so many of the recent

22:25

drives we've seen that have captured

22:27

the imagination of other workers across

22:29

the country, Starbucks, Amazon, taking on

22:31

these big corporations. Most unions up

22:33

until the last year or two.

22:35

We're extremely scared to even try

22:37

to organize these big corporations because

22:39

they're so powerful. But nevertheless, there's

22:41

a higher risk factor. You're not

22:43

guaranteed success when you go after

22:45

the biggest companies. But workers from

22:47

below are taking these risks and

22:49

sometimes they're going to lose. So

22:51

they lost in Alabama as you

22:53

mentioned in the UAW at Mercedes

22:55

because they went up against the

22:57

entire ruling class of Alabama. And

22:59

so there's no guarantee that when

23:01

you fight you win, but the

23:03

only way that you're going to

23:05

win. for millions of workers is

23:07

if you're willing to take on

23:09

more fights. And that's the spirit

23:11

that the movements always have. The

23:13

movements take risks. Movements sort of

23:15

jump into battle without being guaranteed

23:17

success ahead of time. And the

23:19

reality is, even if unions were

23:21

to start losing more frequently than

23:23

they did in the past, let's

23:25

say they go back to losing

23:27

half of the drives. If they

23:29

ran, if they initiated 10 times

23:31

the number of union elections, even

23:33

if they lost half of them,

23:35

that would constitute. a massive increase

23:37

in union organizing. So that's essentially

23:39

the way forward is, you know,

23:41

we need to be prepared to

23:44

lose more frequently, but we need

23:46

to simultaneously organize way more. We

23:48

need to be organizing about 10

23:50

times the amount that labor unions

23:52

are currently organizing. And that combination

23:54

is how you're going to get

23:56

millions and millions of workers to

23:58

unionize. Very well said again. We

24:00

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donations are tax deductible. Please consider

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becoming a monthly donor on patron.

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Substack. or our website Real Progressives.org.

24:08

Now, back to the podcast. So,

24:10

you know, I want to go

24:12

back to the deeper organizing concept.

24:14

I believe very strongly that Agit

24:16

Prop has a place. I think

24:18

it's a very important part of

24:20

shifting the way class-based propaganda. How

24:22

do you see this playing out?

24:24

I see some value in shocking

24:26

people to make them pay attention

24:28

to something that previously, maybe they

24:30

scrolled right past. That said, I

24:32

do hear you and I want

24:34

to understand more. When you say,

24:36

because I understand the patience required,

24:38

although I don't always have it,

24:40

I am very curious. What does

24:42

that mean? The deeper organizing, because

24:44

obviously what you're talking about is

24:46

less hot takes, more person to

24:48

person, the real struggle of why

24:50

aren't you into this? I would

24:52

like to hear you talk much

24:54

more about that. Sure. You know,

24:56

and I agree with you. I

24:58

don't actually mean to counterpart. public

25:00

agitation and I actually think and

25:02

I have a lot of interesting

25:04

data on this in the book

25:06

I just wrote at social media

25:08

today because it's in the absence

25:10

of sort of other spheres for

25:12

like there's no public square in

25:14

most cities right we live in

25:16

a situation in which unfortunately social

25:18

media is one of the few

25:20

avenues we have for spreading the

25:22

word so I actually think that

25:24

is crucial and part of the

25:26

reason the labor movement uptick is

25:28

going on is that the stories

25:30

of unions and workers fighting back

25:32

kind of gone viral online and

25:34

that's created more enthusiasm. The question

25:36

though is, is not like whether

25:38

you should do one or the

25:40

other, but how do we combine

25:42

this type of agitation and the

25:44

overall excitement we have around labor

25:46

or other issues and that kind

25:48

of agit prop? With how do

25:50

we channel that energy into power?

25:52

To me that's the question because

25:54

as you indicated earlier, there can

25:56

be all sorts of issues in

25:58

which people agree with people agree

26:00

with us, but we're not able

26:02

to force those in power. to

26:04

meet our demands. And so there's

26:06

a gap there, right? It's not

26:08

enough just to have people agree

26:10

with you. And so how do

26:12

you channel people's desire for change

26:14

into power? Well, historically and still

26:16

today, it's through organization. And so

26:18

you can't do that individually. It's

26:20

just almost by definition, just your

26:22

power as an individual under the

26:24

system is very limited, but workers

26:26

collectively do have power. And so

26:28

the obvious example of that, you

26:30

are strikes. So we saw Boeing

26:33

workers right now are on strike.

26:35

They actually just rejected a contract

26:37

yesterday. Even though it gave them

26:39

pretty significant wage increases, but because

26:41

they've seen their power on strike,

26:43

they want even more and they

26:45

deserve even more. And so the

26:47

reality is because every institution depends

26:49

on our labor, whether it's a

26:51

public sector or private sector, that

26:53

gives workers this tremendous amount of

26:55

potential power, you can't tap that

26:57

power unless you have an organization.

26:59

is not just sort of like

27:01

an abstract term, it's something really

27:03

concrete. It's structures in which a

27:05

majority of people can make decisions

27:07

collectively. So workers can go on

27:09

strike, it can make demands on

27:11

their bosses, and to get to

27:13

that type of structure, it's not

27:15

enough just to have people agree.

27:17

You need to do deporganizing. And

27:19

so, deporganizing is fundamentally based off

27:21

of one-on-one conversations. It's about building

27:23

relationships of trust. sort of building

27:25

solidarity. And so it's not just

27:27

conversations, but it's sort of rebuilding

27:29

a fabric of solidarity and community

27:31

so that the difference between a

27:33

unionized workplace and an ununionized one

27:35

is that at an unionized workplace,

27:37

people are atomized. People keep your

27:39

head down, you just work and

27:41

then you go home. And at

27:43

a unionized workplace, you know your

27:45

coworkers. you know if one of

27:47

them has an issue you're going

27:49

to be ready to fight back

27:51

from them and you know that

27:53

collectively you're part of something bigger.

27:55

It's not just you against the

27:57

world. it's you and your coworkers

27:59

and the broader class that you're

28:01

part of against the billionaires. And

28:03

so deep organizing is the mechanism

28:05

through which that sort of latent

28:07

power of working people becomes real.

28:09

And you can't do that just

28:11

through a social media post. Social

28:13

media post and ads can help

28:15

people think they might need a

28:17

union, but then you actually need

28:19

to go out and build it.

28:22

You know, it's very well said again.

28:25

I keep feeling like I'm repeating that,

28:27

but you are stating exactly what I'm

28:29

looking for. I'm curious. You said, hey,

28:31

maybe we just put a sticker on

28:33

as an act of solidarity and try

28:35

and organize people to do that simple

28:37

task. You know, when it comes to

28:40

some of the non-profit work and the

28:42

organizing work to spread messages, something as

28:44

simple as hitting like and retweet. It

28:46

is something that I see the establishment

28:48

do very well. Like it's almost amazing

28:50

to see how orchestrated they are and

28:52

being able to simultaneously snap their fingers

28:55

and all of a sudden I imagine

28:57

it's all these paid consultants and stuff

28:59

like that that are being paid to

29:01

do this so they do it and

29:03

it's no problem. But I am curious

29:05

how do you get people to take

29:08

that first step because I mean like

29:10

literally waking the dead it's like bringing

29:12

Lazarus out of the tomb. to try

29:14

to get people to do basic solidarity

29:16

shares or solidarity work out there. How

29:18

do you make that first step? Is

29:20

it all about building trust? I mean

29:23

if you're an organization you'd like to

29:25

believe you have it, but what are

29:27

your thoughts there? Yeah, you know, good

29:29

organizing is context specific. So what I

29:31

will say here is that it does

29:33

depend on where you're at. So you're

29:35

going to have to use different tactics.

29:38

So depending on... the state of how

29:40

angry your coworkers are, how scared they

29:42

are. There's not like a magic bullet

29:44

that's going to activate people everywhere. But

29:46

there is sort of a toolbox that

29:48

we know of that we have for

29:50

how you activate folks. I mentioned some

29:53

of them. Some of it is one-on-one

29:55

conversation. you'd be surprised about how far

29:57

that would go. Something if it could

29:59

be as simple as setting up a

30:01

spreadsheet amongst your coworkers to find out

30:03

how much each person's getting paid and

30:05

then you can compare, right? And you'd

30:08

be surprised at how often there's disparities

30:10

and how often people are getting underpaid.

30:12

And that's a way of seeing yourself

30:14

as part of a collective. And then

30:16

when you see these disparities, then you

30:18

can say, oh, wow, why don't we

30:20

do something about this together? Another common

30:23

tactic to kind of get things moving.

30:25

is not even explicitly political or organizing

30:27

focus, it's just, can you organize a

30:29

social event? Could you get your coworkers

30:31

to all come to picnic or to

30:33

go to the bar after work or

30:35

even get on a zoom call, play

30:38

some game, right? That stuff might seem

30:40

sort of like a side part, maybe,

30:42

you know, not urgent, but actually the

30:44

socializing piece, what we call socialized before

30:46

you organize, is really crucial because... If

30:48

workers don't even know each other in

30:50

a deep way personally and don't have

30:53

some sort of basic level of familiarity,

30:55

then it's actually very difficult to convince

30:57

people to take some sort of collective

30:59

political action. So you need to get

31:01

people to feel part of a collective,

31:03

oftentimes before you can get that collective

31:06

to do anything politically relevant. And then

31:08

the other tactic that I mentioned that's

31:10

just worth reiterating, is I always recommend

31:12

when I talk to workers who are

31:14

trying to, you know, can you get

31:16

a petition at your workplace? You know,

31:18

you don't have to use the word

31:21

union, which can be scary for some

31:23

people, but find out what the issues

31:25

are, most of your coworkers, and see

31:27

if you can get a majority of

31:29

them to sign a petition. You know,

31:31

even something as modest as like, we

31:33

want the break room to be better

31:36

stocked, or we want to have more

31:38

flexibility on XYZ thing. If you can

31:40

get workers to do something as simple

31:42

as that, then everything else becomes possible.

31:44

And so I do think part of

31:46

it is when you're coming to deep

31:48

organizing. in places where there's a lot

31:51

of fear. You know, it's a little

31:53

bit different if you're organizing outside the

31:55

workplace. But particularly the workplace where... fear

31:57

is a real issue, then you have

31:59

to start where people are at. I

32:01

think that's a big part of it.

32:03

You have to really not jump ahead

32:06

of yourself. You have to understand where

32:08

people are at and figure out what

32:10

is the very first thing, the most

32:12

modest but real step that individuals and

32:14

groups can take. And when you

32:16

identify that, that gets the ball rolling

32:18

for bigger and better things. I appreciate

32:21

that immensely. I mean, it puts the bull's eye

32:23

on it. Can't do big things unless you

32:25

can do small things. Let's give them a

32:27

taste test test test test. Let them flex

32:29

their muscle, let them see what it

32:31

looks like, to be in solidarity and

32:33

to do something together, and that will

32:35

be get other opportunities. You wrote another

32:38

article that I thought was really powerful, and

32:40

I'd like you to kind of go through

32:42

this. I mean, you've written a lot, you're

32:44

prolific, man. I just was shocked at how

32:46

many things you've written out there, but in

32:48

particular, this is a recent one here

32:51

in September. I kind of piggybacks on

32:53

all this stuff and you talked

32:55

about the new labor organizing model of

32:57

E-W-O-C. I've never even heard of

32:59

E-W-O-C and I probably should have as

33:01

much as I talk about union stuff, but

33:04

this emergency workplace organizing

33:06

committee. Let's talk about this a

33:08

little bit because I think this is interesting.

33:11

Interesting union and workplace organizing

33:13

is high, but proactive workers

33:16

have few opportunities to launch

33:18

their own organizing drives. Start

33:20

from there, man. Sure. The emergency

33:23

workplace organizing committee, or we call

33:25

it Ewok, for short, is a

33:28

project that emerged to fill a

33:30

gap. And that gap is that

33:32

there's millions and millions

33:35

of workers who want

33:37

to unionize. Most unions

33:39

aren't being proactive about

33:41

giving them the tools necessary

33:43

for them to start

33:45

organizing. And oftentimes say

33:47

no to them when workers reach

33:50

out. systematically and frequently will

33:52

say no to workers for a variety

33:54

of reasons. And so Ewok emerged

33:56

at a moment of crisis. It

33:59

emerged literally. in March 2020, right

34:01

at the beginning of the pandemic,

34:03

keep in mind, just put yourself back

34:05

in that moment, right? People were terrified

34:07

about going into work that companies were

34:09

forcing people to go in without PPE,

34:12

without sick time, and so you have

34:14

people to go in without PPE, without

34:16

sick time. And so you have all

34:18

of these workers who all of a

34:20

sudden started reaching out to the Bernie campaign

34:22

to ask for help. And so I

34:25

was a labor organizer for the Bernie

34:27

campaign, what can we do to fight

34:29

back? And so Ewok emerged out of

34:31

that moment where people from Labor

34:33

is from the Bernie campaign

34:35

joined together with the Democratic

34:37

Socialists of America, which is the

34:39

biggest socialist organization in the US,

34:42

together with the United Electrical

34:44

Union, which is maybe the

34:46

most long-standing left union in the

34:49

country, joined forces to found Ewok. At

34:51

first, it was just a Google forum

34:53

where workers could reach out to say,

34:55

hey, I need help, and then we'd connect

34:57

people. We knew the experienced organizers,

35:00

we knew the workers reaching out for help

35:02

to give them support. And ever since then,

35:04

it's now mushroomed into something far bigger.

35:07

We've had thousands and thousands of workers

35:09

reach out, trained over 5,000 workers in

35:11

the regular bimonthly trainings we do. The

35:13

basic process of Ewok right now is

35:16

to support any worker in any industry

35:18

who wants to organize. That most of

35:20

the time means unionizing, but it also

35:23

can mean something as simple as just

35:25

fighting back for better wages or conditions.

35:27

And so all you have to do, if

35:29

you're listening out there and you're saying, oh,

35:31

maybe this sounds good, maybe you've

35:34

been thinking about organizing, or even

35:36

just considering it, you just go to

35:38

the website, which is organized

35:40

workers.org, and you fill out a form in which

35:42

you just say where you work and we'll

35:44

get back to within 72 hours. And so

35:46

you fill out a short form, and then

35:49

what you walk does is it'll connect you

35:51

to a volunteer, an experienced worker organizer. who

35:53

will then help you start organizing your coworkers. So

35:55

that's what Ewok does. It's all of the

35:57

things we've been talking about. It's going to give

35:59

you a... personalized support system so that you

36:01

can start doing it. You don't have

36:04

to wait for an established union. We'll

36:06

help you connect to the union down

36:08

the road because we do think we'll

36:11

encourage workers to get the resources they

36:13

need. Sometimes workers decide to go independent.

36:15

Most workers decide to affiliate. Well, you

36:18

know, that's up to workers. But we

36:20

want workers to have power. And so

36:22

what we'll do is we will help

36:25

you take the first steps. One of

36:27

the things you mentioned in the article

36:29

though is putting a heavy emphasis on

36:32

lean on Volunteers as much as possible

36:34

and you know volunteers are great. You

36:36

love them But volunteers are volunteers and

36:39

after a while the urgency of said

36:41

issue you know I think of it

36:43

like you're on the beach and if

36:46

you ever watched that movie Moana There's

36:48

seen where they're trying to break out

36:50

into the open sea, but they can't

36:53

get past the coral reef. The waves

36:55

just keep crashing and pushing the boat

36:57

back and breaking up the boat. But

37:00

once you get past the waves, once

37:02

you get past the coral reef, you're

37:04

out to the open sea, you can

37:07

go. It just seems like getting past

37:09

the coral reef is a real challenge

37:11

with volunteers in particular because it requires

37:14

persistence to get over the reef. and

37:16

with something as difficult as relying on

37:18

unpaid staff, you've really got to have

37:21

people that really believe in the situation

37:23

to make that happen. I'm interested in

37:25

hearing a little bit more explanation on

37:27

that if you wouldn't mind. Sure, I

37:30

mean, the challenge you pose is real,

37:32

but be honest, we haven't lacked for

37:34

capacity for volunteers in Ewok for a

37:37

couple reasons. First of all... as I

37:39

meant before, we've been able to lean

37:41

on volunteers from Democratic Socialist of America

37:44

and United Electrical and there is something

37:46

about I think having radical politics and

37:48

feeling sort of a deep solidarity commitment

37:51

to making the world a better place

37:53

that leads people to put in in

37:55

an inordinate amount of time to make

37:58

the world better. And so just think

38:00

about the Bernie campaign in 2016, 2020.

38:02

We really come out of that moment

38:05

and there were so much effervescence of

38:07

volunteer. Think about all the people canvassing,

38:09

door knocking and all that. And so

38:12

that same energy has gotten channeled into

38:14

Ewok. and some of the same structures

38:16

to onboard people and things like that.

38:19

So the reality is there's a generational

38:21

dynamic in which so many young people,

38:23

Gen Z, millennials, are just very conscious

38:26

of how evil the system is on

38:28

just how much unnecessary human suffering it

38:30

causes that they're willing to and eager

38:33

to put in the work to turn

38:35

things around. And in particular, they're eager

38:37

to do that around labor organizing, because

38:40

as you mentioned before, given how hard

38:42

it is to make change, people understand

38:44

that the labor movement is really our

38:47

best hope, that if we can't turn

38:49

the labor movement around, then we're not

38:51

going to be able to win on

38:53

any of the issues that we need,

38:56

whether it's stopping the genocide in Gaza,

38:58

whether it's climate change, whether it's just

39:00

reversing economic and racial inequality. And so

39:03

I think that there's a large number

39:05

of people who understand this to be.

39:07

the task in front of us and

39:10

are willing to volunteer. And what's exciting

39:12

about Ewok is we're not just throwing

39:14

people in who have no labor experience,

39:17

putting you in touch with people who've

39:19

been organizing their own workplaces or helping

39:21

organize other workplaces for years. And that

39:24

is really what a movement is. So

39:26

in Ewok, for instance, workers who have

39:28

unionized their workers at Barbenshino, the first

39:31

pizza place to unionize in New York

39:33

City, but we helped them win. And

39:35

then they were so excited about unionizing

39:38

that they went out and organized. and

39:40

unionized and helped support a union effort

39:42

at the Nighthawk movie theater in New

39:45

York. And so you can see how

39:47

volunteers, the more organizing you have, creates

39:49

more volunteers. People. win a union drive

39:52

and it's a snowball effect. And so

39:54

Ewok is really built off of the

39:56

snowball model in which everyone who gets

39:59

involved in Ewok, we're training up new

40:01

people who are in turn training up

40:03

people. And it does have this exponential

40:06

factor. And to me, that's why it

40:08

feels like a movement. And it's very

40:10

exciting. That is very exciting. I want

40:13

to pivot now to your as to

40:15

be released yet to be released book.

40:17

We are the union, how worker to

40:19

worker organizing is revitalizing labor and winning.

40:22

I have a It's due out apparently

40:24

in February of 2025, so it's a

40:26

little bit out there. What can you

40:29

tell us about the book? The major

40:31

argument of it is that the potential

40:33

exists at this moment and over the

40:36

coming years to organize tens of millions

40:38

of workers. There's literally tens of millions

40:40

of workers who every poll have indicated

40:43

that they would vote for a union

40:45

tomorrow. And so the question is how

40:47

do we make that potential a reality?

40:50

And we need to make that potential

40:52

reality. Because otherwise... worse group. And the

40:54

argument is, as I mentioned before, is

40:57

basically that the existing model of union

40:59

organizing of most established unions can't make

41:01

that potential reality because it's too staff

41:04

intensive. It relies too much on staff

41:06

and there's just not enough staff and

41:08

not enough money to organize tens of

41:11

millions of workers that way. So we

41:13

need a new model. And my argument

41:15

is that the new worker to work

41:18

a model, which I sort of described

41:20

earlier, that's come out of the United

41:22

Auto Workers and things like this. I

41:25

guess the question is, you know, given

41:27

that we're coming up on time, what

41:29

would you want people to really take

41:32

out of this? Maybe what we didn't

41:34

cover, high points, is something that you

41:36

feel would really, really make an impact.

41:38

Getting copy of the book would be

41:41

to organize their workplace. And to take

41:43

that seriously as a possibility, a lot

41:45

of people feel like the labor movement

41:48

is something out there. You know, they

41:50

support it. They want to. see it

41:52

grow, but they haven't really in a

41:55

deeply felt way realized that they can

41:57

and that you should take the initiative

41:59

at your own workplace to unionize. Any

42:02

job can be a union job. It's

42:04

not just for blue collar workers, not

42:06

just this or that part of the

42:09

country. Any job can be a union

42:11

job. And the responsibility is of people

42:13

like folks listening to this interview and

42:16

to all the work you do is

42:18

to take that initiative. If you realize

42:20

that there's so many problems in the

42:23

world. And if you feel sort of

42:25

heartbroken about what you see every day,

42:27

then I just feel on a moral

42:30

level it's our responsibility to be strategic

42:32

about building the power necessary to defeat

42:34

the billionaires that are destroying this world

42:37

and so many people across it. And

42:39

the labor movement is our best hope

42:41

to do that because the labor movement

42:44

has power. The labor movement is how

42:46

we win. And the labor movement is

42:48

you. The labor movement is all of

42:51

us. So if you're thinking about it,

42:53

do it. we can support you through

42:55

Ewok. So again, just go to organize

42:58

workers.org, fill out the form, and we'll

43:00

support you taking those steps towards organizing.

43:02

And it's going to be like people

43:04

through you, that's how we're going to

43:07

change the world. And I'm optimistic, despite

43:09

everything, that the labor movement is going

43:11

to turn around its fate and that

43:14

we're going to transform this country in

43:16

the process. Fantastic. I really, really appreciate

43:18

your time. Folks, aside from purchasing the

43:21

book, which we'll put links and everything

43:23

in the show notes. Where can we

43:25

find more of your work? And by

43:28

the way, a lot of his work

43:30

is on Jacobin. But where can we

43:32

find more of your work, Eric? Sure.

43:35

I think the best place to follow

43:37

my work is subscribe to my free

43:39

sub-stax. It's just called Labor, if you

43:42

go to Labor Politics. Or the other

43:44

sub-sex, Labor Politics. That I put up

43:46

my writings. And I'm on Twitter. You

43:49

can just look me up, Eric Blong.

43:51

And then yeah, in the book, we

43:53

are, the union was getting out in

43:56

February, but pre-order is up. Those are

43:58

all good places to see what I'm

44:00

up to and to get connected to

44:03

the causes of trying to support. Fantastic.

44:05

All right, folks, I want to just

44:07

thank you. Eric for joining me today.

44:10

I appreciate you making time. I know

44:12

you're very, very busy. Really, I do

44:14

appreciate you making time for us here.

44:17

On behalf of myself and my guest,

44:19

Eric, this is Macro and she's podcast.

44:21

We are part of Real Progressives, which

44:24

is a non-profit organization 501c3. We survive

44:26

on your donations that are coming to

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website. real progresses.org. You can go to

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our sub stack, which is real progresses.substack.com.

44:35

And you can also find us online.

44:37

So with that, Eric, thank you so

44:40

much for your time. Folks, on behalf

44:42

of mackerel and cheese, we are out

44:44

of here. Production,

44:51

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