0:00

If you are listening to and even

0:02

enjoying this episode of the podcast and

0:04

want to go deeper, I have a

0:06

book recommendation for you. This is your

0:09

host Amanda, by the way, and the

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book is called The Age of Magical

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Overthinking, and I wrote it. I poured

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my heart into this book, and I

0:18

really think you might like it. It's

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about delusion and obsession in the information

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age and how the ways in which

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our minds naturally work are clashing with

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our current culture. Every chapter explores some

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confounding irrationality. from contemporary society, including extreme

0:31

cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement,

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mass embrace of Instagram manifestation gurus

0:35

during times of crisis, and why

0:38

our bodies sometimes enter literal fight

0:40

or flight in response to something

0:42

as objectively non-threatening as a curt

0:44

email from a co-worker. The book

0:46

blends social science with pop culture

0:48

analysis and personal stories, and if

0:50

you prefer audio books, I recorded

0:53

mine myself. So it's kind of

0:55

like an extension of the podcast.

0:57

Again, the book is called The

0:59

Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on

1:01

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3:00

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4:11

for details. Welcome to

4:13

the Magical Overthinkers podcast,

4:15

a show for Thought

4:17

Spirellers, exploring the subjects

4:20

we can't stop overthinking

4:22

about, from people-pleasing to

4:24

burnout. If you identify as an

4:26

overthinker, a ruminator, a dreamer, or

4:28

sometimes kind of feel like the

4:30

natural ways in which our brains

4:32

work are clashing with this particular

4:34

information overloaded time in history, then

4:36

you're in the right place. This

4:39

podcast is here to help dial

4:41

the temperature in our minds down

4:43

a little bit, to help us

4:45

think less about the things that

4:47

don't matter, and more about the

4:49

things that do. I'm your host

4:51

Amanda Montel. Today, with the help

4:53

of my friend Darnanor, climate reporter

4:55

at The Guardian, we're going to

4:57

be unraveling some thought spirals about

4:59

the climate crisis. And because time

5:02

is ticking, sorry, dark, we're going

5:04

to get right into the interview

5:07

today, Darna is going to be

5:09

addressing as many listeners submitted thought

5:11

spirals as possible, from how to

5:14

psych ourselves into mobilizing when capitalist

5:16

overlords are truly responsible for the

5:18

world burning to... What would happen

5:21

in the near future if we

5:23

truly did nothing more to stop

5:25

climate change? To what's the

5:28

deal with climate policy

5:30

under Trump? And we'll

5:32

also be sharing some

5:34

actionable, realistic, everyday ideas,

5:36

not only for how

5:38

to make a material

5:40

difference amid the climate

5:42

crisis, but also how to

5:44

feel better, less hopeless. Okay,

5:46

onward with the interview. Thank

5:48

you for joining the Magical Overthinkers

5:51

podcast. Thanks for having me. What

5:53

an honor. The listeners don't know

5:55

this yet, but we were buddies

5:57

in high school. Yes, we were.

6:00

Just so everyone's aware, Darna is

6:02

and always was the authentically coolest

6:04

person I've ever known. Oh my

6:06

god, stop. So everyone's where Darna

6:08

did introduce me to Bright Eyes.

6:10

You did have the neatest handwriting.

6:12

And now you report on the

6:14

single most pressing existential threat to

6:16

humanity, which is the coolest thing,

6:19

in my opinion. But for those

6:21

who didn't go to our high

6:23

school. Could you introduce yourself and

6:25

your reporting? Yeah, I'm Tharna. I

6:27

write about the climate crisis from

6:29

a fairly particular point of view, I

6:31

guess. My like title at the Guardian

6:34

is Fossil Fuels and Climate Reporter, which

6:36

means that I mostly focus on sort

6:38

of accountability reporting. I used to do

6:40

a lot of science reporting about the

6:43

latest findings about the climate crisis or

6:45

like, you know, solutions reporting about how

6:47

people are fighting back. Both of those things

6:50

are very important and I still do some

6:52

of those things, but most of what I

6:54

do now is here is... all of the

6:56

ways that politicians, fossil fuel companies, you know,

6:58

like the exons, the Chevron, the lobbying firms

7:00

of the world, here is all the ways

7:02

that they have delayed progress or kind of

7:05

halted progress on this issue, and here is

7:07

what we can try to do to hold

7:09

them accountable and bring the sort of lies

7:11

that they've told into life, which my personal

7:13

opinion is that that should be a part

7:15

of all climate reporting, but it is very

7:18

much not. So it's kind of a very

7:20

particular niche in an already fairly niche

7:22

world, although, everyone's rightfully very

7:24

concerned about this existential threat that

7:26

we're all facing, which is very good.

7:28

Yeah, including and especially the listeners of

7:31

this podcast who submitted the questions

7:33

that will define our conversation today. But

7:35

first, I have to post to you

7:37

the question that opens all of

7:39

my magical overthinkers interviews. It goes

7:42

like this, what is an irrational thought spiral

7:44

that has been living rent-free in your head

7:46

lately? Oh my gosh. I feel like I

7:48

have the same thought spirals constantly. Why is

7:50

everyone mad at me and why does everyone

7:52

hate me? That's a big one, you know?

7:54

But I feel like in a work-related way,

7:56

I feel like part of the difficulty of

7:58

being a journalist is constant fear. of getting

8:00

something very wrong. And so

8:02

recently I did some reporting about

8:04

a company that was very upset about

8:07

some of the things that I said

8:09

about them, and they chose to get in

8:11

touch with me and asked me to write

8:13

a big correction. And so what a good journalist

8:15

in this world says is I'm gonna

8:18

go back and check what I wrote.

8:20

Is it all correct? Yes, if it's

8:22

all good, like you tell them that

8:24

they should fuck off. But what I

8:26

do is outwardly say like I'm not

8:28

issuing a correction and then in my

8:31

brain I'm like, oh my god, maybe

8:33

I'm actually really bad at this, maybe

8:35

I got everything wrong, maybe they're actually

8:37

really good people, oh my

8:39

god, I can't believe that I would

8:42

ever, maybe nobody should ever trust me

8:44

again, you know, so that's my rule.

8:46

That is so fucking relatable

8:48

to me. But because so much

8:50

of my writing is opinion-based, some

8:52

things aren't wrong or not wrong.

8:55

They're just a particular perspective or

8:57

a take, and yet some people

8:59

disagree in a way that makes

9:01

it feel like I did get

9:03

something factually wrong. Yes, I feel

9:05

you. and the manner in which

9:07

they disagree is so aggressive. Or

9:09

at least it feels aggressive to

9:11

me because I'm a fucking weenie,

9:14

but like my first thought immediately

9:16

is not, oh this is just

9:18

a difference of opinion, my first

9:20

thought immediately is like I deserve.

9:22

pain. Yes, yes exactly and also part

9:24

of the point of all of this

9:26

is that you should be able to

9:29

like change your mind but of course

9:31

instead what I feel is like I'm

9:33

just too easily swayed by whatever person

9:35

is talking to me sometimes which is

9:37

like maybe my worst trait as a

9:39

journalist. Great now I've introduced myself and

9:41

basically told everyone why that shouldn't trust

9:44

me. No no that vulnerability is perfectly

9:46

suited to the vibe of this show.

9:48

Love that. I myself just have one

9:50

question to set us up, and then

9:52

we will transition into the thoughts,

9:54

spirals, and questions submitted by listeners.

9:56

My question is the vibe among

9:59

Americans like myself, who care about

10:01

the climate, who read about it

10:03

in the news, but who aren't

10:06

experts and struggle to parse through

10:08

everything, especially amid my own panic.

10:10

I find that groups of folks

10:12

like myself are generally quite scared,

10:15

have a feeling of doom, but

10:17

what would you say is the

10:19

vibe among climate reporters and scientists

10:22

regarding the crisis? Is all hope

10:24

lost? How has morale changed in

10:26

recent history? I love this question and

10:28

it's also a very difficult one to

10:31

answer because there are so many different

10:33

perspectives in this field. There are definitely

10:35

people who are on the doomier end

10:38

of the spectrum. I mentioned earlier that

10:40

like a lot of my work focuses on

10:42

accountability on like the reasons that climate politics

10:44

are in the horrible place that they are

10:46

and it's kind of in that is this

10:49

idea that things don't have to be this

10:51

way. And I feel like part

10:53

of the reason that I

10:55

chose to move in that

10:57

direction is because I was

10:59

finding myself moving into doomeness

11:01

in a way that frankly

11:03

was kind of unhelpful because

11:05

feeling helpless doesn't really change

11:07

anything. And in fact, I

11:09

think for me at least can

11:11

like provoke a sort of like

11:14

paralysis. And in fact, I think

11:16

for me at least can like

11:18

provoke a sort of like paralysis

11:20

and inaction. is not a thing

11:22

that makes me feel paralyzed. Like

11:25

sadness, definitely despair, definitely. But anger

11:27

often makes me feel more like,

11:29

okay, well, that means that I'm

11:31

angry because there is something else

11:34

that can come out of the situation

11:36

that we're in. And I feel like

11:38

that's kind of where a lot of

11:40

folks who spend a lot of time

11:42

thinking about the climate crisis are. And

11:45

like, anger doesn't always feel good, but

11:47

I think sometimes it can be really

11:49

useful. cross this threshold and all hope

11:51

is lost, or everything is like fine

11:53

up till we get there. It can

11:56

be really easy to misinterpret these things

11:58

about like not crossing 1.5 degrees. Celsius

12:00

over like pre-industrial temperatures, all these really

12:02

wonky things that come up really often

12:04

when we're talking about the climate crisis.

12:07

And those are like useful metrics insofar

12:09

as you remember that like there's not

12:11

some big scary horror movie moment that

12:13

happens at that point. Like every tiny

12:15

fraction of a degree that we can

12:18

stop the world from warming actually does

12:20

matter and can save countless lives. So

12:22

it's not like... Either hope is gone, like

12:24

either we can do something or we can't. It's

12:26

more like we have to do whatever we possibly

12:29

can. Even though it's not our fault that we're

12:31

in this place, it's kind of like all of

12:33

our responsibility to do whatever we can to mitigate

12:35

the situation. So I don't know. Holding all of

12:38

that at one time is like kind of difficult,

12:40

but I feel like it can be better for

12:42

the brain than to just be like we're

12:44

all fucked, it's all over. Yeah, that's

12:46

really helpful. to just like try to

12:49

separate from the binary thinking of we're

12:51

completely fucked or it's gonna be okay.

12:53

There's something in the middle and do

12:56

you think that living in the social

12:58

media age when attention spans are getting

13:00

shorter measurably and also when like

13:03

instant gratification is one of the

13:05

only ways that we accept information?

13:07

Do you think that is affecting

13:10

our patience or our ability to

13:12

orient ourselves around solutions to the

13:14

climate crisis? Yeah. Honestly, I feel

13:16

like my answer to is social

13:18

media inhibiting our ability to understand

13:20

X is always like probably yes.

13:22

In this case, I don't know,

13:25

I mean, I do think it's

13:27

probably good that people are seeing

13:29

the stories about climate progress all

13:31

around them too, but I do

13:33

think that there's like a tendency

13:35

to oversimplify, you know, like social

13:37

media, for instance, encourages you to

13:40

only read the headline or look at

13:42

the infrographic or, you know, like, go

13:44

through the slides on Instagram instead of

13:46

actually reading the article. And I do

13:48

think that can sometimes contribute to the

13:50

like a bad... threshold that we've crossed,

13:52

but it doesn't mean that all hope

13:54

is lost. So I think it can

13:56

sort of enable this inability for people

13:58

to grapple with gray area. in a

14:00

way that's probably not helpful. Yeah, because

14:02

obviously of course those who create headlines

14:04

know that a negative headline is going

14:07

to be more engaging and there might

14:09

be something more positive or nuanced in

14:11

the article, but social media doesn't really

14:13

incentivize you to click on the article.

14:15

Like who fucking clicks on the article?

14:17

Totally. Opening

14:20

up a merch shop is obviously kind

14:22

of like a podcaster dream, but I

14:25

always thought it was off limits for

14:27

me. I'm not very tech savvy, but

14:29

then last year I finally opened up

14:32

my very first merch store, Amanda Monk

14:34

held out store, using Shopify. And I'm

14:36

so glad I did. Nobody does selling

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strolling or scrolling, definitely check out Shopify.

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It's the... Service that all the businesses

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details. So let's transition to some of

16:33

our listeners' wonderful questions and thoughts spirals.

16:35

The first one goes, as a scientist,

16:38

I'm spiraling about seeing the predictions I

16:40

learned about happening before our eyes. Do

16:42

you relate to that? Yeah, I mean

16:44

I honestly for all of my like

16:47

channel anger and don't give into the

16:49

sadness this is honestly the thing that

16:51

makes that the most difficult for me

16:54

and I can't imagine being a climate

16:56

scientist and seeing the world that we're

16:58

in recently there was this new science

17:01

showing that the Arctic is now a

17:03

net emitter, meaning that like it used

17:05

to be a thing that takes planet

17:07

warming pollution out of the atmosphere, and

17:10

now because the earth has warmed enough

17:12

that this is the case, basically like

17:14

all of this carbon from like dead

17:17

stuff, dead plants, dead stuff, dead stuff,

17:19

and like all of this carbon from

17:21

like dead stuff, dead plants and animals,

17:23

that have been stored in permafrost for

17:26

thousands of years, it's basically like the

17:28

thing that could happen, eight, nine. years

17:30

ago and it's really crazy making to

17:33

be like oh that did actually happen

17:35

and you know we probably could have

17:37

taken some steps to prevent that even

17:40

if we didn't prevent that like particular

17:42

thing from happening it would have been

17:44

great if we'd taken some real action

17:46

to make things a little better by

17:49

now but also the difficult thing about

17:51

I think like assessing where we're at

17:53

with climate is that there's sort of

17:56

like two yardsticks that you can measure

17:58

things by, right? Like there's the yardstick

18:00

of history and then there's the yardstick

18:02

of what's actually needed. And by the

18:05

yardstick of history, for instance, it's like

18:07

true to say that like the US

18:09

in the past four years just invested

18:12

more in mitigating climate change than it

18:14

ever has before. That's true. It is

18:16

also true that that is nowhere near

18:18

what the yardstick of what's actually needed

18:21

demands. And I think it's important to

18:23

keep those two things in our heads

18:25

at the same time. So that's why

18:28

you can see two headlines on the

18:30

same day that are like, we've avoided the

18:32

worst possible case scenario for climate change and

18:34

also like scientists say we're nowhere near meeting

18:37

our climate goals. So like yes, a lot

18:39

of these things that we've known would be

18:41

really really bad. We're going to happen are

18:44

happening and that's horrible. But also, we have

18:46

truly avoided some of the worst-case scenarios, so

18:48

I don't know. That should not make you

18:50

feel good, I guess, but it maybe means

18:53

that all hope is not lost. I reference

18:55

this book all the time, and I want

18:57

to bring it up again. The book

18:59

that I want to reference is

19:02

That Children's Book, called Fortunately,

19:04

by Remy Charlotte. And it's about

19:06

this boy going throughout his day.

19:08

And normally... a story or a

19:11

fairy tale follows like Freightag's pyramid,

19:13

right? It's like a hero's journey

19:15

and there's conflict and a climax

19:18

and then resolution. But this book

19:20

was so sort of subversive as

19:22

a children's text because there's no

19:25

plot like that. It's just fortunately,

19:27

unfortunately, unfortunately, one line from it

19:30

is, fortunately, there was a parachute

19:32

in the plane. Unfortunately, there was

19:34

a hole in the parachute. Fortunately,

19:37

there was a haystack on the

19:39

ground. And like, that's the whole book.

19:41

And I think about that all the time

19:44

because I want the climate crisis,

19:46

my own personal crises that are

19:48

way smaller, not an existential threat

19:50

to anyone but me. I want

19:52

all these things to be like

19:54

a hero's journey fairy tale. But

19:56

instead, it sounds a lot more

19:58

like this book, fortunately. slash unfortunately.

20:00

Yes, totally. That is so deeply helpful.

20:02

Okay, the next question is like this,

20:04

how different will life look in the

20:07

30 years due to the climate crisis,

20:09

food, weather, travel, policies, etc. Not like

20:11

you know, you're not an Oracle, but

20:13

what would you say in response to

20:15

this? That's by really question. This is

20:17

also such a hard question because it's

20:19

like there's a number of different scenarios

20:21

that could play out over the next

20:24

30 years. And... If the latter changes

20:26

a lot, like if policies change a

20:28

lot, and we, for instance, change what

20:30

travel looks like in order to accommodate

20:32

trying to circumvent this crisis, trying to

20:34

avert the worst possible consequences of this

20:36

crisis, that could mean that policy and

20:38

travel change a lot, but it could

20:41

mean that like food and weather change

20:43

less. So for instance, one clear example

20:45

of this is like there's this sort

20:47

of longshot international policy proposal. where basically

20:49

every time you would buy a plane

20:51

ticket in the United States, because the

20:53

United States is like a highly emitting

20:56

country, you would have to pay an

20:58

extra tax, and that tax would go

21:00

to giving other countries, poorer countries, harshly

21:02

impacted by the climate crisis countries, some

21:04

amount of climate aid. That would really,

21:06

really change what policy it looks like,

21:08

not just in the United States, but

21:10

everywhere else, and it could change what

21:13

travel looks like, because it could make

21:15

travel even more expensive, which would be

21:17

shitty. access to the same foods that

21:19

we have now because we would not

21:21

have to change our trade routes when

21:23

some of these countries are literally underwater

21:25

in 30 years and things like this.

21:27

So in some cases you can change

21:30

some things in order to preserve the

21:32

other things. I mean, honestly, if we

21:34

don't do anything differently, like if we

21:36

kind of stay on the path that

21:38

we're on policy, we'll probably not look

21:40

that much different, at least in the

21:42

US. and all of this other stuff

21:44

will look vastly different. We could have

21:47

far less access to a lot of

21:49

the food that we really like. Coffee

21:51

could be harder to get and like

21:53

chocolate could be harder to get and

21:55

all these things. The weather could be...

21:57

more extreme and unpredictable travel could be

21:59

much much harder for that reason. So

22:02

there are a lot of different possible

22:04

ways that we could see the climate

22:06

crisis play out over the next 30

22:08

years, but definitely there will be big

22:10

changes. Also, I should say, the US

22:12

is experiencing really rapid changes right now

22:14

that is nowhere near the scale of

22:16

the rapidness that things are changing in

22:19

other places. So like in 30 years,

22:21

life could be a lot harder for

22:23

a lot of people in the United

22:25

States because of the climate crisis. Also

22:27

in 30 years the entire country of

22:29

the Marshall Islands could be completely gone

22:31

swallowed by the sea So I guess

22:33

just like important to remember that we

22:36

are horribly affected and also not the

22:38

worst worst affected So like it's awful

22:40

to say like be grateful for it

22:42

But I guess just like we should

22:44

all have the perspective that we're in

22:46

this together, but some of us are

22:48

way more in it than other ones

22:50

of us Yeah, okay. So then that

22:53

brings me to the next thought spiral

22:55

which I feel like is haunting everything

22:57

else which is how do we? cope

22:59

while watching capitalism wreak havoc because we

23:01

know the solutions it sounds like you

23:03

know scientists have notes have suggestions have

23:05

action items and yet we live in

23:08

a big fat fucking commercial and in

23:10

America who's gonna choose the right thing

23:12

over the profitable thing I mean, maybe

23:14

that's like a cynical way of putting

23:16

it, but that's how it feels. I

23:18

think that's totally right. Yeah. So like,

23:20

how do we reckon with that knowing

23:22

that these changes are so necessary and

23:25

the negative impact will be so fucked

23:27

for us and people who be way

23:29

worse off than those living in the

23:31

US? How do we hold that? knowing

23:33

that like a lot of these changes

23:35

probably won't happen because people holding the

23:37

fucking marionette and the purse strings or

23:39

whatever are like oh well I'm gonna

23:42

be dead in 30 years I'd rather

23:44

die rich. Yeah I feel like I

23:46

have two ways of answering this and

23:48

honestly the first one is like even

23:50

though tuning out of something doesn't help

23:52

like remember to go live your life

23:54

at some points and remember that there

23:56

is still beauty and goodness in the

23:59

world and like if that doesn't work

24:01

every once in a while if you

24:03

start to feel too paralyzed about it

24:05

truly my answer on occasion is like

24:07

a go to a rave or like

24:09

take a Xanax and go to bed

24:11

which is the worst possible answer to

24:14

this take his annex and go to

24:16

bed I love that full quote that's

24:18

the takeaway journalist says answer to climate

24:20

changes just do drugs and don't think

24:22

about it but seriously sometimes I do

24:24

kind of feel like there is a

24:26

weird thing where I'm like I have

24:28

to remind myself that spiraling about the

24:31

thing doesn't fix the thing every once

24:33

in a while. But also, part of

24:35

the reason that you have to stop

24:37

the spiraling is because we're up against

24:39

basically the most powerful forces in the

24:41

world here, and change is going to

24:43

be extremely hard, and it's going to

24:45

mean that we have to accept losing

24:48

most of the time. And unfortunately, sometimes

24:50

I feel like in the world, you

24:52

just have to do things where the

24:54

odds are super against you, and it's

24:56

really, do when you're watching our capitalist

24:58

overlords wreak havoc on ecosystems and people.

25:00

is take stock of that, understand it,

25:02

and then also remember that like the

25:05

vast majority of people are not benefiting

25:07

from this, and that the only possible

25:09

way that we can, I think, incite

25:11

any sort of change is to help

25:13

people to understand that they are not

25:15

benefiting from this. That's why I think

25:17

the labor movement is such a powerful

25:20

sort of force here. That's why like

25:22

organizing has such an important role here

25:24

is because we need to remember that

25:26

like there are fewer... of them. They

25:28

have a lot more money, they have

25:30

a lot more resources, but they don't

25:32

have people on their side. Like, the

25:34

current way that we're treating the climate

25:37

crisis is really, really bad for the

25:39

majority of people. Again, worse for some

25:41

people than other ones, but also really

25:43

bad for most of us in some

25:45

way or another. And I think important

25:47

to remember that like short of completely

25:49

over-throwing capitalism, there are anti-capitalist policies that

25:51

could be put into place that would

25:54

not only be good for like people's

25:56

lives. if we lived in a world

25:58

where it's like even climate deniers. are

26:00

on board with some climate policies because

26:02

everyone's like, yeah, I would love to

26:04

not have to like pay to fill

26:06

up my gas tank to go to

26:08

work every day. I would love to

26:11

have more public parks in my neighborhood

26:13

and live in a more walkable area.

26:15

Those are things that are probably less

26:17

profitable, but they're really, really good for

26:19

the majority of people again. And that

26:21

doesn't make them less winibable. It makes

26:23

them more winibable. The idea that they're

26:26

like better for people at least means

26:28

that there. I guess maybe the two

26:30

answers are like sometimes chill out

26:32

and then also don't get so

26:34

stressed that you can't try anyway.

26:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything in moderation

26:39

as they say. Yeah, I do

26:41

think that there is this like,

26:44

I don't want to say poison

26:46

because that feels catastrophizing, but there

26:48

is this sort of like American

26:51

mentality that can feel a little

26:53

noxious. that growing up in this

26:55

country a lot of us feel

26:58

like low-key maybe we want to

27:00

be those billionaires that we broadly

27:02

claim to hate so much and

27:04

thus we don't want to hold

27:06

them two two two two two

27:08

two two two two two two

27:10

two two accountable in the case

27:12

that like we become one which

27:14

like the odds of that are

27:16

I would argue even slimmer than

27:18

the odds of turning this nightmare

27:20

climate ship around 100% yes 100%

27:22

totally so like I'd rather bank

27:24

on the latter I'd rather wave

27:26

the white flag on one day

27:28

becoming a billionaire in exchange for like

27:30

community-based efforts to make the world greener,

27:32

but that's just me. Listen, I totally

27:34

agree. I feel like I would be

27:36

really bad at being a billionaire. Like

27:39

I would like to live in a

27:41

world where people are not incentivized to

27:43

do horrible things. I don't think there's

27:45

really a way to be a billionaire

27:47

that doesn't mean that you're like horribly

27:49

exploiting someone, so it's like, why don't

27:51

we just all share all of that

27:53

wealth? And then we can all have

27:55

nice things, well we can't all have

27:57

the nicest things that we probably shouldn't.

27:59

Okay, I'm gonna need some help

28:01

understanding the next question, but just because

28:04

I don't get it doesn't mean I

28:06

wanted to skip it. The question is,

28:08

how will eco zones shift? And what

28:10

does that mean for our conservation and

28:13

restoration efforts? Darno, what the fuck is

28:15

an eco zone? This question is so intimidating,

28:17

because I feel like even though I'm

28:19

sure that this is a term that

28:21

I... used in reporting that I did

28:23

while I was writing about climate science.

28:26

An eco-zone is basically like a zone

28:28

with a very specific climate, a very

28:30

specific ecosystem, like flora and fauna that

28:32

are home to that region, and I

28:34

think usually nowhere else. So extremely wonky

28:36

term, but I think that if you

28:39

think of it like it's a unique

28:41

place with a unique climate and unique

28:43

like ecological features, maybe easier to conceive

28:45

of. So I'm in an eco zone

28:47

in LA right now, right? because it's like

28:49

a desert that just burned down. It's

28:51

like part of an ego zone because

28:53

there's like... microclimate, then there's lyome, which

28:55

is like the whole desert, and then

28:58

I think the ecosone is like the

29:00

even broader one where it's like encompassed

29:02

in, but I don't know where the

29:04

boundaries of these things are. The listeners

29:06

are smarter than me, clearly. Same. 100%

29:08

same. I don't even know how they

29:10

know the things they know. Yeah, you

29:12

get extra credit, definitely. So, okay, let's

29:14

reframe the question in a way that

29:16

we can answer, which is how will

29:18

very special climate corners get

29:20

fucked soon. I mean, I think whether

29:22

you're talking about like the egosone

29:24

level or the city level, a

29:27

lot of things are already shifting

29:29

and going to shift a whole

29:31

lot more. And what that means

29:33

for conservation and restoration is basically

29:36

like, this is kind of an

29:38

annoying answer, but it's like we

29:40

need to be nimble and we need

29:42

to be nimble and adapt when needed.

29:45

So for instance, if we're working on

29:47

forest conservation to ensure that a specific

29:49

species of tree or a specific species

29:51

of bird that relies on that tree

29:54

in a particular place, if we're working

29:56

on that, and then there's a huge

29:58

fire and all those trees burn down,

30:01

that doesn't mean like, okay, great, give

30:03

up, it's not worth it anymore. It

30:05

means probably either work on preserving those

30:08

trees somewhere else in a similar climate

30:10

or like a climate that has become

30:12

similar due to global warming, or maybe

30:15

it means take a look at forecasts

30:17

and see how likely it is for

30:19

fires to happen there anytime soon, and

30:22

then see if there's anything that you

30:24

can do to like cut down trees

30:26

in a way that means that the

30:29

fire would spread less, things like this.

30:31

So we have to the world. honestly,

30:33

like very cool ways that people are

30:35

dealing with these kinds of shifts. Like,

30:38

one big change that we've seen, for

30:40

instance, is because of these shifts in

30:42

the climate, so places are either getting

30:45

too warm or too wet, birds are

30:47

not going on their normal migration paths,

30:49

which is horribly depressing to me, that

30:52

just makes me feel like truly awful.

30:54

But then you read about these scientists

30:56

that are literally in some cases putting

30:59

birds in planes and flying them along

31:01

migration paths that work for them because

31:03

it gets like hardwired. into these birds

31:06

and then they keep doing it. Like

31:08

then every year they like fly in

31:10

these paths that are going to put

31:12

them closer to food that they need,

31:15

like I don't know, the fish that

31:17

they eat or whatever. So there's like

31:19

really interesting ways that people are dealing

31:22

with this stuff too. So it's not

31:24

all bad. There's great stories out there

31:26

which is good. I know there are

31:29

and they come up in my YouTube

31:31

algorithm which is very like climate optimistic

31:33

I have to say. I watch all

31:36

kinds of mini documentaries that inspire very

31:38

temporary feeling of hope. Very temporary feeling

31:40

as hope is good sometimes. I have

31:43

a pronoun question. The word we, the

31:45

like first person plural, is thrown around

31:47

a lot when we're talking about climate

31:49

activism. What are we talking about? Are

31:52

we talking about the government? Are we

31:54

talking about non-profits? Are we talking about

31:56

literally me and Casey at home? Are

31:59

we talking about corporations? Who are we

32:01

referring to? Yeah, I love this question.

32:03

think about this all the time. Because

32:06

I feel like in all kinds of

32:08

writing I feel like it's so easy

32:10

to fall into the like we means

32:13

every one thing. But sometimes it like

32:15

really super doesn't. I didn't make climate

32:17

change happen. Like we live in this

32:20

world where I feel like we're all

32:22

supposed to take personal responsibility for everything

32:24

and that's fine to a certain extent

32:26

but I'm also like should I be

32:29

responsible for climate change because I'm putting

32:31

a plastic bag into my trash can

32:33

and that plastic bag is like made

32:36

of oil or gas and that's planet

32:38

warming. Is it me or is it

32:40

the company that sold me that plastic

32:43

bag? And like in the United States,

32:45

generally, in part because of like the

32:47

years and years of propaganda, the decades

32:50

of propaganda that we've been like sold

32:52

by the oil companies, the answer to

32:54

that is both, but mostly you. But

32:57

I feel like I didn't tell anyone

32:59

to sell me things that are bad

33:01

for the rest of humanity, like for

33:03

all of humanity, including myself, I didn't

33:06

ask for that choice. So yeah, I

33:08

think sometimes when we're talking about like

33:10

we are seeing So yeah, just who

33:13

the fuck is we? I'm not the

33:15

one who's responsible. So like in terms

33:17

of things that we can do, sometimes

33:20

when those pieces of advice are distributed,

33:22

I'm like, I don't think you're talking

33:24

about me. Like that sounds like something

33:27

that a corporation would have to do.

33:29

And look, I have an LLC, but

33:31

the word factory LLC doesn't use plastic

33:34

bags. So my question is like, what

33:36

can I do? like this afternoon? What

33:38

can I do tomorrow? Like we just

33:40

started composting. Is that good? A listener

33:43

asked, does recycling even matter when billionaires

33:45

are billionaireing? Like what can I do

33:47

literally today and tomorrow and does it

33:50

matter? Amanda, do you know this term

33:52

pre-figureative politics? No, enlighten me. Okay, bear

33:54

with me for a second. So there's

33:57

kind of, especially like sort of like...

33:59

soft anarchist movements in the United States,

34:01

but then also like leftist movements in

34:04

like South America, also radical liberal like

34:06

adbusters movements in, I don't know, the

34:08

90s in the US, we're very into

34:11

this idea where it's like, you do

34:13

politics pre-figuratively. So like.

34:15

you do politics to create the world that

34:17

you want to see, even if it doesn't

34:19

actually exist yet. And that's why you have

34:21

communes where everyone shares all resources equally, or

34:23

I don't know, in some ways like a

34:26

food not bombs, where you're like, we should

34:28

just do mutual aid in ways that like

34:30

provide people with vegan food when they need

34:32

it. That's all like pre-figureative, because like that

34:34

is not the way that the world works,

34:36

but we can create a tiny microcosm of

34:38

that world. And I am. One, very critical

34:40

of the idea that this is the

34:42

way to do politics, because it's like

34:45

you should take stock of what the

34:47

actual world is. But two, I feel

34:49

like on a tiny micro level, like

34:51

in. the human brain on the scale

34:53

of one person, sometimes I'm like, part

34:55

of the reason that we should do

34:57

with stuff isn't because it will change

34:59

the world, it's because we can remember

35:01

that it's possible to live in a

35:03

world where like people can take the

35:05

bus or not throw plastic in the

35:07

garbage and things like this, you know? I

35:09

was vegan for a few years, and I

35:11

feel like this was a large part of

35:14

the reason. It was because I was like,

35:16

okay, it's not that I am going to

35:18

have some like, I can remind myself that it is

35:20

possible to do this in a way that is not

35:22

horrible. And that doesn't mean that I think

35:24

that we should be like forcing people to

35:26

make choices because they're better for the planet

35:29

when in fact... Ideally, we live in a

35:31

world where you don't get to make choices

35:33

that are bad for the planet because governments

35:35

and corporations have made it so that the

35:38

things that are in front of you are

35:40

like fine and sustainable and good and whatever.

35:42

But also, I think it can like inspire

35:44

weird sort of hopefulness to be like, if

35:46

my life is okay, then I guess it

35:49

would be fine if everybody had to do

35:51

this. Yes, okay, so like a sprinkle of

35:53

the commune delulu. Be the change you wish

35:55

to see in the world. while also not

35:58

being so sort of dogmatic about that. that

36:00

you fail to recognize reality for yourself or for

36:02

others or for society. Totally. Also, sometimes I feel

36:04

like making those choices is hard, and then you

36:06

learn about why they're hard. I did this story

36:08

recently, where I was like, I'm gonna see if

36:10

you can eat the climate diet, which is a

36:13

diet that scientists came up with, that's like the

36:15

best possible way to eat for climate change. I

36:17

was like, I'm gonna see if I can do

36:19

that only from the dollar store, because lots of

36:21

their groceries, and it was not pleasant. And so

36:23

part of what I think that I learned from

36:26

that is like, I mean, I don't think that

36:28

I needed to be reminded of this. I think

36:30

most people don't actually need to be reminded of

36:32

this, but sometimes it's good to be reminded on

36:34

like an emotional and visceral level. Oh right, people

36:36

aren't just having in the ways that they're behaving

36:38

because they're choosing them and like out of like

36:41

vast array of options. It's like you live in

36:43

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36:45

put in front in front of you. So I

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mean from that are put in front of you.

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options available. Taxes and fees extra, C-ment,

39:04

mobile for details. What's the latest change

39:06

other than the experiment that you barked

39:08

upon? What's something that you're doing these

39:11

days that you weren't doing maybe ten

39:13

years ago? That feels very ochoral in

39:15

terms of like environmental impact. Honestly. It's

39:18

so horrible, but I think about the

39:20

kinds of changes that people make. And

39:22

in the past 10 years, I'm like,

39:24

I have moved in the other direction.

39:27

I started eating meat again a few

39:29

years ago. I like own a car

39:31

now, not an UV. I own like

39:34

a gas-powered car now, which is a

39:36

thing that I did not have three

39:38

years ago. And unfortunately, like, especially having

39:41

a car is a thing that has

39:43

improved my life quite a bit. Which

39:45

should not be the case, right? We

39:48

should be able to fucking take the

39:50

bus to the grocery store But now

39:52

it only takes me an hour to

39:54

go to the grocery store instead of

39:57

far longer But I feel like maybe

39:59

in some ways Paradoxically doing some of

40:01

these things that are maybe like more

40:04

normal and maybe not as good for

40:06

the environment on a personal level has

40:08

given me more buy into this idea

40:11

that what we actually need is to

40:13

press corporations to not be selling things

40:15

that are bad for us. In some

40:18

ways, I feel like moving away from

40:20

personal choices. I mean, whatever. I still

40:22

try not to fly a ton and

40:24

recycle, even though I know that oftentimes

40:27

the recycling is not actually getting recycled

40:29

and things like this. But I feel

40:31

like... having a car and eating sometimes

40:34

chicken makes me remember that like people

40:36

are just living the lives that they

40:38

are living and like what we need

40:41

is for all of us to be

40:43

given better choices and not by force

40:45

for us by force on the corporations

40:48

that are making those things possible in

40:50

the first place you know I feel

40:52

bad I didn't mean to make you

40:54

feel like I was like quizzing you

40:57

on how good of a person you

40:59

are I feel like actually talking about

41:01

our daily habits in terms of the

41:04

environment is a bit taboo, right? Because

41:06

we're like, how fucking shitty is your

41:08

behavior? Like how wasteful are you? Yeah,

41:11

yeah. How wasteful am I, you know?

41:13

And it is really good to hear

41:15

that. perspective because you know it's like

41:18

why should you have to be a

41:20

martyr you know and the other thing

41:22

that your point reminded me of is

41:24

that I felt like when I was

41:27

younger I was able to do the

41:29

more like experimental things like I was

41:31

vegan for a long time as well

41:34

and like only thrifting clothes for a

41:36

while too and you know when you

41:38

get older it's just not quite as

41:41

realistic to live that experimental life all

41:43

the time. To your point, that should

41:45

be okay. Like you deserve a car.

41:48

And you're exactly right. Like, I guess

41:50

just advocating and voting for people who

41:52

can push for those top down changes

41:54

is so fucking important. Yeah, totally. I

41:57

feel like for. really long time environmental

41:59

politics in general have been associated with

42:01

austerity basically like it's it's very associated

42:04

with what we can't have. You can't

42:06

have a car even though that helps

42:08

you see your parents more quickly. You

42:11

can't have beef stew even though it's

42:13

like the thing that your grandmother made

42:15

you when you were sick growing

42:17

up and like There is going to have to

42:19

be some of that sort of thing, but also

42:22

I feel like it's so important to remember that

42:24

like there's just so much that we can gain

42:26

and there's like a lot more joy and beauty

42:28

that we can find in a world that is

42:30

created more sustainably. I said this earlier, but if

42:32

we all live in like places where it's really

42:34

nice to walk around. where you don't need a

42:37

car, where you can take the bus, maybe you

42:39

also, as a result of that, it's not just

42:41

lowering carbon emissions, but maybe you like make friends

42:43

on the bus, you know your neighbor's better, you

42:45

see more birds and flowers when you're walking around

42:47

every day and these kinds of things, you know?

42:50

And so I feel like... putting the emphasis a

42:52

little bit more for me on what can possibly

42:54

come out of this in like a positive way

42:56

can make me feel like it's a little bit

42:59

more possible. I just don't think that we're gonna

43:01

win if we're like advocating for something where everybody

43:03

has to have at least what they perceive as

43:05

a worse life, you know? Yeah. I don't think

43:08

anybody is like I want to give up the

43:10

stuff that I already have, especially when like a

43:12

lot of people are already fucking struggling. I don't

43:14

want to make people's lives worse. Totally. Yeah, and

43:17

there is no reason why eating less

43:19

meat or whatever can't be fun.

43:21

Like what if you have

43:23

fucking meatless Mondays with your besties?

43:26

Like, you know, like that's

43:28

maybe like a dumb suggestion, but

43:30

like there are ways to

43:32

make it fun. It doesn't have

43:34

to be defined by lacking

43:37

or deprivation. Yeah,

43:39

exactly. So this one is very

43:41

concrete. Someone wants to know what

43:43

is going to happen now that

43:45

we aren't a part of the

43:47

Paris Climate Agreement. So for some

43:49

context, could you explain what that

43:51

is? Yes, the Paris Climate Agreement

43:53

is a United Nations agreement that

43:55

almost every country in the world

43:57

signed on to in 2015, which

44:00

Like many things in climate policy in

44:02

general was nowhere near sufficient to lower

44:04

carbon emissions and also the best thing

44:06

that we had seen up until that

44:08

time to maybe at some point averts

44:10

the worst possible consequences of carbon emissions.

44:13

So all these countries came to the

44:15

UN after many years of coming to

44:17

the UN every year, talking about climate

44:19

change, duking it out, talking about like

44:21

who should pay the most for climate

44:23

policy. who should be getting more money

44:26

to like transition away from fossil fuels

44:28

and things like this. They all came

44:30

together and they were like, look, we're

44:32

gonna all agree that we at least

44:34

have some goals on the books. And

44:36

one of those goals is to keep

44:39

the world well below. It says. 2.0

44:41

degrees Celsius of global warming, which sounds

44:43

very complicated, but it's basically just like

44:45

an amount of warming over like what

44:47

the world looked like before climate change

44:49

started, before industry was a thing, before

44:52

like we were using fossil fuels, it's

44:54

this increment where it's like if things

44:56

get beyond that, then there's horrible consequences

44:58

that we don't even know how we're

45:00

going to be able to deal with.

45:02

So let's at least try to prevent

45:05

us from getting to that point. And

45:07

the last time that Trump was elected

45:09

president, he removed the United States from

45:11

the Paris climate agreement and then Joe

45:13

Biden re-entered the United States into the

45:15

climate agreement, which I think is not

45:18

like a, oh my gosh, so great,

45:20

whatever, just like complete bare minimum. But

45:22

now of course we have a president

45:24

who wants to undo even the bare

45:26

minimum kinds of progress that we've seen

45:28

on this front. And so once again,

45:31

we have been, at least he has

45:33

put the word in that we are

45:35

going to come out of the Paris

45:37

climate agreement again, which it's going to

45:39

actually take a year for that to

45:41

happen. It basically means that the United

45:44

States is not going to be at

45:46

the negotiating table when it comes to

45:48

like these big international talks or we

45:50

all talk about how we're going to

45:52

take on this crisis together. And I

45:54

feel like even more important than that

45:57

is that it means we're not going

45:59

to be meeting our like financial responsibilities

46:01

here because like the United States has

46:03

been responsible for more greenhouse gas pollution,

46:05

more planet warming pollution than any other

46:07

country in the history of the world

46:10

by far. Right now we're not the

46:12

top emitter but when you take like

46:14

all of history we are by far

46:16

the top emitter and so that means

46:18

that we have like a pretty big

46:20

responsibility to help poorer countries cope with

46:23

the climate crisis and also like you

46:25

know stop polluting. Like get away from

46:27

fossil fuels, bring on more like wind

46:29

and solar geothermal, whatever. The United States

46:31

has a huge responsibility to do that

46:33

and now we are not going to

46:36

do any of it, at least for

46:38

the next four years. We're just not

46:40

going to help countries with this at

46:42

all. So that's really bad. Wait, I

46:44

have a question. Okay, I get that

46:46

someone like Trump wouldn't want to engage

46:49

in this bare minimum behavior for money

46:51

reasons. He wants to spend money on

46:53

something else. I don't fucking know. But

46:55

do you think there's also... a performative

46:57

aspect to this? Like do you think

46:59

he pulled out of the Paris climate

47:02

agreement as a gesture, almost like as

47:04

a way of pandering toward denying that

47:06

the climate is a serious issue, which

47:08

is like something that I guess conservatives

47:10

have attached themselves to for some fucking

47:13

reason? Like it doesn't make sense, but

47:15

like do you think that he honestly

47:17

did it in part as like a

47:19

fuck you to Democrats? and look how

47:21

powerful I am and look how connected

47:23

we are over our hatred of people

47:26

who care about the climate to certain

47:28

conservatives. Yeah, I totally think so. It's

47:30

crazy that like, I mean, culture war

47:32

stuff I think is like a problematic

47:34

way to even think about anything, but

47:36

like it's crazy that this would be

47:39

wrapped up for him and like, it's

47:41

like the most material issue that you

47:43

could possibly imagine, but it's become this

47:45

like culture war thing politicized in this

47:47

very specific way. So yeah, I think

47:49

it's totally like a gesturing thing. Also,

47:52

it's honestly like we know for sure

47:54

that it's a gesture towards oil and

47:56

gas companies who like poured tens of

47:58

billions of dollars into his campaign even

48:00

though So it's like, again, this thing

48:02

was like very insufficient, did not do

48:05

nearly enough to like actually take on

48:07

those oil and gas companies. But basically

48:09

by pulling out of this agreement, he's

48:11

like, look, even the bare minimum stuff,

48:13

you don't even have to do that.

48:15

You can have anything you want. We

48:18

don't care. You can have free reign.

48:20

So yeah, it's like this double jesher

48:22

where it's like to his little. Duckies

48:24

or whatever ducklings why do why is

48:26

that the image that comes to mine?

48:28

It's like honestly way too adorable his

48:31

little fucklings there we go We got

48:33

there That's what that's where I was

48:35

going him and his little fucklings are

48:37

all so old and I don't mean

48:39

that in an age of way. I

48:41

mean like Psychology studies show that we

48:44

conceive of our future selves as strangers.

48:46

This is why we procrastinate. This is

48:48

why we like, don't eat healthy. This

48:50

is why we don't care about our

48:52

future selves. I'm like, I should write

48:54

this down. I don't think I've ever

48:57

heard anyone say that before. And it

48:59

is so edifying. Like, participants in these

49:01

studies demonstrated that they conceived of their

49:03

not even that far in the future

49:05

selves as these like. Absolutely nobody's who

49:07

they were not going to do shit

49:10

for. Yeah. Donald Trump's like going to

49:12

die. He and his fucklings are all

49:14

going to die. They don't materially have

49:16

to worry about their future selves, much

49:18

less psychologically figure it out. So I

49:20

wonder like selfishly and narcissically, they must

49:23

just be like, this is so not

49:25

my problem. If we who theoretically care

49:27

are still on some level like, well,

49:29

it's not my problem today, you know.

49:31

If even we struggle we struggle. to

49:33

concretize our concerns. They must just be

49:36

like, fuck that, who cares? Yeah, 100%.

49:38

It's also, it's like easy to feel

49:40

that way because. There's literally nothing that

49:42

even the best possible US government could

49:44

do to stop climate change. It's like

49:46

if you are procrastinating going to the

49:49

gym, you can always be like, well,

49:51

I'm like not going to get buff

49:53

today. So why should I go today?

49:55

And then tomorrow, like, okay, well, today's

49:57

not going to be the day that

49:59

makes the huge difference. So I shouldn't

50:02

go today. It's like so easy for.

50:04

countries to keep holding the door and

50:06

being like, after you, after you, you

50:08

know, because it's like not something that

50:10

you can kind of fix all at

50:12

once. And I feel like JD Vance

50:15

is going to be alive probably for

50:17

a while, but I feel like even

50:19

people like him can be like, well,

50:21

we can't fix it all. And so

50:23

why should we be the ones that

50:25

don't get to like massively help our

50:28

friends in the oil and gas industry?

50:30

Why would it be our problem? You

50:32

know, it's like the bystander effect a

50:34

little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay,

50:36

I'm gonna ask one more big question

50:38

and then we're gonna do a couple

50:41

little lightning rounds for fun, because we

50:43

have to enjoy ourselves in this life

50:45

sometimes. That's right. Take a Xanax and

50:47

go to bed. Someone just wants to

50:49

know how actually to hold corporations accountable

50:51

for contributing to the climate crisis. Like

50:54

what can we as friends and neighbors,

50:56

fucking do to let them know we're

50:58

not happy about the bullshit they're selling

51:00

us that's bad for everyone. It's hard

51:02

because this is also the sort of

51:04

thing where it's like there's no one

51:07

thing that anyone can do that fixes

51:09

the whole thing and so it makes

51:11

it hard to want to do anything.

51:13

How can corporations be held accountable? I

51:15

mean like I feel like the answer

51:17

for me to that really is with

51:20

policy but you need people to advocate

51:22

for it to happen in the first

51:24

place. Where we're at right now is

51:26

basically that like corporations... say that they're

51:28

going to hold themselves accountable. So there's

51:30

been a lot of like, look, we

51:33

made a big climate pledge and that

51:35

means that you don't have to tell

51:37

us what to do here. Like we're

51:39

taking care of it. We promise. We

51:41

have all the solutions. We're going to

51:43

be fine. Don't worry. We're already lowering

51:46

our emissions. But that shit doesn't work

51:48

because like they're completely nonbinding. They can

51:50

always roll them back. In fact, a

51:52

lot of oil companies are rolling them

51:54

back now just because gas is like

51:56

gas is like more profitable. actually, we're

51:59

not gonna do all that climate bullshit

52:01

we were talking about, we're just gonna

52:03

stay the course and keep drilling, like

52:05

drillberry drill, you know? So I feel

52:07

like, one, the answer is like, it

52:09

can't just be on corporations themselves, it

52:12

has to be on governments to hold

52:14

them accountable. Unfortunately, I am sort of

52:16

the opinion that it can't be on

52:18

people without governments either, because we don't

52:20

have... I don't know, a monopoly on

52:22

violence or like the ability to like

52:24

send people to jail or find them

52:26

in huge ways. But what we can

52:29

do is like, a lot of people

52:31

do this, you can like try to

52:33

make their lives a living out when

52:35

they don't behave in ways that are

52:37

particularly sustainable. So yeah, it's like twofold.

52:39

It's like. The more fun answer is

52:41

bug the shit out of them. By

52:43

writing in, like, Dear Jeff Bezos, like,

52:45

what do you mean? You can definitely

52:47

do that. There's protesters who loved to

52:50

storm their fancy dinners and yell at

52:52

everyone in the room about how they're

52:54

all evil. Oh, okay, so it's like

52:56

the Jane Fonda approach. Yeah, you can

52:58

do that. There's probably no. evidence that

53:00

any of those individual like storming a

53:02

dinner leads to some kind of big

53:04

change but at the very least it

53:07

can be like attention grabbing and remind

53:09

people who the actual villains are and

53:11

that's good and then the other more

53:13

boring shit that you can do is

53:15

like get your ecosystem friends to run

53:17

for office and run people on really

53:19

really popular platforms that include

53:22

doing things like I don't know, making

53:24

the oil industry pay for the

53:26

horrible damages that they've caused and

53:28

use the money to make life

53:30

better for everyone. Some fucking PR

53:32

girlie has to come in here

53:34

and make all that shit sexy.

53:36

Yeah, I could not agree more.

53:39

I'm going to get in here

53:41

and make all that shit sexy.

53:43

Yeah, I could not agree more.

53:45

I'm going to get in trouble

53:47

for saying this, if any of

53:49

them hear me say this, which

53:51

it's fine. everyone. I mean you're

53:53

totally right that like you do have

53:55

to make the boring shit sexy sometimes

53:58

but also you live in California. If

54:00

one that is listening to this lives

54:02

in California, currently there is a bill

54:04

that's like a big make polluters pay

54:07

act, which sounds I think sexier than

54:09

like a lot of other ways you

54:11

can tang all this problem, it's literally

54:13

like tax the shit out of the

54:16

biggest companies that caused climate change and

54:18

make them pay to enact climate policy

54:20

in the state. which is a lot

54:23

sexier I think than being like putting

54:25

price on carbon and then when people

54:27

are driving in the street you need

54:30

to ensure that they pay seven dollars

54:32

extra you know like it's better than

54:34

how we've been doing so there's a

54:36

lot of those like bills around you

54:39

know you can advocate for those if

54:41

you're interested that's the thing that you

54:43

can do like right now today are

54:46

we advocating for that's we're doing it

54:48

right now well listen as a journalist

54:50

I would never advocate for anything Maybe

54:52

thought that it was a good idea

54:55

to take a fuckload of money from

54:57

big oil. All I'm saying is that's

54:59

a possibility, you know. Oh, okay. Well,

55:02

I'm a culture critic for those who

55:04

are confused about my title. And I'm

55:06

saying make looters pay. Okay, let's do

55:09

two lightning roundies. And then I'm going

55:11

to ask you my final question. This

55:13

is a yes or no question. Someone

55:15

asks, is Elon banking on being able

55:18

to move planets or something? I think

55:20

the answer is no. I think he's

55:22

banking on trying to make his company

55:25

look good so that he can get

55:27

a lot more money from the Department

55:29

of Defense. But that's just me. I

55:31

don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Okay. That

55:34

leads me to the second question, which

55:36

is, is there a safe place to

55:38

live? Where is the safest place with

55:41

the least amount of climate related disasters

55:43

to live? There are definitely places that

55:45

are safer, but nowhere is actually safe.

55:48

One place that people thought was relatively

55:50

safe was relatively safe was Asheville. Yeah,

55:52

there's places with less risk, but shit

55:54

is going completely crazy. I don't think

55:57

there's a place that you can go

55:59

where you can be like, I'm totally

56:01

good here. What about like Montana? I

56:04

don't, I mean, there's shit everywhere, man.

56:06

In Montana, there's like horrible droughts and

56:08

shit, and so farmers have like really

56:10

suffered, and then there's like... floods because

56:13

after a drought there can be floods.

56:15

What about New Zealand? I feel like

56:17

the reason to move to New Zealand

56:20

is because it rocks. Like not because

56:22

it's totally safe because it rocks. But

56:24

again, like there are places that are

56:27

more safe than other places. Like I'm

56:29

not being like, Montana and Bangladesh are

56:31

the same. But like, I don't know,

56:33

shit is getting worse. That said, like,

56:36

New Zealand sounds tight. I would go.

56:38

Okay. Now I'm gonna ask you one

56:40

final question. People are overthinking when it

56:43

comes to the climate crisis. And what

56:45

is the number one thing you think

56:47

they're underthinking? I think people are underthinking

56:50

the degree to which it's not their

56:52

own faults. Like I feel like if

56:54

you... Keep that in mind, it can

56:56

help with the spirals in general. And

56:59

I feel like, generally speaking, probably a

57:01

good idea. That doesn't mean it's not

57:03

your responsibility, but it's good to know

57:06

that like, it's not your fault that

57:08

the world is like this. And I

57:10

feel like one thing that people are

57:12

really overthinking, I know that you had

57:15

some people write in about this. And

57:17

I feel like one thing that people

57:19

are really overthinking, I know, I know

57:22

that you like, I'm really overthinking, overthinking,

57:24

I'm over thinking, to do. because climate

57:26

change, I think that's probably not a

57:29

super productive place to be. I think

57:31

that generally speaking, you can live your

57:33

life and also fight back against the

57:35

horrible like polluting capitalist overlords. I think

57:38

you can do both of those things.

57:40

So like, remember that it's fine to

57:42

be normal and have a normal life.

57:45

And also you can do that while

57:47

like staying at great and advocating for

57:49

change or whatever it is that you

57:51

need to do. Oh, that reminded me

57:54

of one of my favorite. quotes, which

57:56

is something Gustav Flaubert said, which is,

57:58

be regular and orderly in your life

58:01

so that you may be violent and

58:03

original in your work. I think about

58:05

this all the time. Really? Yes, 100%.

58:08

Do you feel ordinary in your life?

58:10

Sometimes I feel like I am aspiring

58:12

to be ordinary. I'm like, damn, to

58:14

be a norm. I don't know, I

58:17

feel like there's something to the idea

58:19

that like if you are too fucking

58:21

weird, no one's gonna listen to you.

58:24

Oh my god, yes, yes, that really

58:26

resonated with me. Okay, if folks want

58:28

to keep up with you and you're

58:30

writing, where can they do that? What

58:33

a horrible time to be answering this

58:35

question. Like you can follow me on

58:37

Twitter, it's my name, but that's a

58:40

bad place to be now. You can

58:42

go on the Guardian.com and look at

58:44

all of the articles by darn and

58:47

norm. That's where you can find my

58:49

work. Amazing! And thank you listener so

58:51

much for tuning into another episode. Now's

58:53

the time where I share a tidbit

58:56

of evidence-based advice for how we overthink

58:58

thinkers can get out of our own

59:00

heads this week. This one comes from

59:03

a really interesting study that I came

59:05

across titled Getting Out of Rumination, Comparisons

59:07

of Three Brief Interventions in a Sample

59:10

of Youth. In the study, researchers found

59:12

that to reduce states of rumination, or

59:14

lingering unproductively on a negative thought, methods

59:16

of distraction, in addition to mindfulness, were

59:19

actually more effective than problem-solving. I found

59:21

this so interesting. So basically, to get

59:23

study participants in a ruminative state. The

59:26

researchers would say things like, think about

59:28

why you are feeling the way you

59:30

do and think about the possible consequences

59:32

of the way you feel. So mean,

59:35

but anything for science. Then they found

59:37

that what was actually more effective at

59:39

boosting mood and interrupting that rumination than

59:42

the process of identifying a problem and

59:44

generating possible solutions was actually just straight

59:46

up distracting participants with a prompt about

59:49

something totally random. Think about the shiny

59:51

surface of a trumpet, or think about

59:53

the layout of the local shopping center.

59:55

So my takeaway from this was, if

59:58

you find yourself ruminating on something, don't

1:00:00

feel bad if someone's invitation to find

1:00:02

a logical solution seems annoying. Instead,

1:00:05

try maybe distracting yourself by, I

1:00:07

don't know, thinking through the layout

1:00:09

of your favorite mall in your

1:00:11

hometown as a kid. And you might

1:00:13

just be impressed with the

1:00:15

temporary relief it provides. That's

1:00:17

the show. Thanks again for

1:00:19

listening. And until the next spiral,

1:00:22

remember, think it over. Just don't

1:00:24

over, think it. Magical

1:00:29

Overthinkers was created and hosted by

1:00:31

Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan

1:00:34

Moore of the pod cabin. Our

1:00:36

theme music is by Casey Colve.

1:00:38

Thank you to our magical manager,

1:00:40

Katie Everson, coordinator, Reese Oliver, and

1:00:43

network studio 71. Be sure to

1:00:45

follow the pod on Instagram at

1:00:47

magical Overthinkers. We're also on YouTube,

1:00:49

Lincoln Show Notes, and ad-free episodes

1:00:51

as well as behind-the-scenes extras are

1:00:54

available on the Magical Overthink Thinkers

1:00:56

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