0:22

Hello, my fellow coffee nerds. It's

0:24

December. And I'm recording this a

0:26

few days after our first

0:29

FTC camp in Guatemala. And

0:31

even though this was our fifth camp, it was

0:33

the first time that we had a

0:36

special guest. My mom came

0:38

to help. and I

0:40

wanted her to help because. FDCs

0:43

have, since the beginning, since its inception

0:46

have always been bilingual, but

0:48

in previous camps, the way that we accomplish

0:50

that was by me doing the whole thing twice.

0:53

Meaning I would do all of the presentations

0:55

in English. The English group would go take a break and then

0:57

the Spanish group would come in and then I would do it all.

1:00

Again in Spanish. So

1:02

the activities. The

1:04

actual fermentations, all

1:06

of that was done as a, an

1:08

entire group altogether. You

1:11

know, he would. sort cherries,

1:13

pulp coffee. I do our yeast, rehydration,

1:16

our inoculation wash the coffee,

1:18

drying. All of that

1:20

cuppings were altogether. But

1:22

when. We had to do classroom

1:24

time and get a lot more into the theory

1:27

of the microbiology and what's going on. I

1:29

would have to separate the groups. And this was a

1:31

difficult setup for me because not only

1:33

was it a lot of energy to do everything

1:35

twice in both languages. but I didn't

1:37

like having to separate the groups because there's

1:39

such a rich discussion when we can all be

1:41

together and just get a lot more diversity

1:44

of perspectives and experiences. So

1:47

I. It took five. Take

1:49

five camps, but I eventually had the idea

1:52

to ask my mom for help. So

1:54

she flew down from California to join us

1:56

for a few days because she is a professional

1:59

interpreter. So having

2:01

her, we were able to do a simultaneous

2:04

translation. So I was giving

2:06

my presentation in English and then we

2:08

had her on. Headphones. And

2:10

all of the Spanish speakers had their little headphones

2:14

and we were able to do a simultaneous live

2:16

translation. And

2:18

it was really exciting because we were able to keep

2:20

the entire group together. And I

2:22

just had a lot more energy to.

2:24

Just be present for the event.

2:27

And then also it gave us a lot more

2:29

time to have discussions and to have,

2:31

these kind of rich interactions

2:34

that aren't just like me talking at a group, but

2:36

the group talking to each other. And

2:38

that was important to me because what I love more than

2:40

coffee microbiology is getting to

2:42

interact with other folks who like to talk about

2:45

coffee, microbiology, and just. The

2:47

coffee scene in general. Which

2:50

brings me to today's episode today

2:52

is episode number 60. And

2:54

as long time listeners know every 10 episodes,

2:57

I get to answer your questions. I

2:59

personally really like these episodes because it

3:01

helps me get out of my head and hear what's still

3:03

confusing or perhaps what I could do

3:05

a better job communicating to you guys. The

3:08

question you will hear today are very similar

3:10

to the types of questions we get to discuss on

3:12

discord. So if you like these kinds

3:14

of topics or this kind of

3:17

discussion episode, I

3:19

think you would really enjoy our live office hours.

3:22

I've had to make some changes because I am

3:24

very much a morning person and

3:26

historically. They, when they started,

3:28

they've been Friday mornings at 10:00 AM

3:31

my time, local time when there was Guatemala or

3:33

Columbia. But I

3:35

eventually heard for many listeners from Hawaii

3:38

and Australia and Indonesia who

3:40

couldn't join because it would be, I don't

3:42

know, like three o'clock in the morning for them, which is

3:44

ridiculous. So I recently

3:47

added a session in my night times to

3:49

include Asia Pacific. We

3:51

recently had our very first

3:53

Asia Pacific discord office hours.

3:56

And one of the questions that came up was

3:58

about the yeast pickier. And

4:00

the question was posed, not just to me, but to

4:02

the group in general. And what was the group's

4:04

experience fermenting with this non Saccharomyces

4:07

east? So this was

4:09

a very into the weeds type

4:11

of discussion. Um, you know, getting

4:13

to talk about a particular fermentation

4:16

protocol, but it's not always

4:18

hardcore microbiology discussions. We

4:20

also have some casual topics that we talk about,

4:23

like brewing and then some more general

4:25

stuff like our favorite coffees and

4:27

just discussions about how we feel about the industry.

4:30

And it's just a really nice place to share. So

4:33

I hope you enjoy this listener Q and a,

4:35

and if you want more episodes like this, I

4:38

hope you'll join us in Patrion because we

4:40

do these chats a few times a month in English

4:42

and in Spanish and for multiple times

4:44

zones. So there should be something in

4:46

that configuration that works for you. And

4:49

if that still doesn't work. Then

4:51

before an episode or before

4:53

a discord live session, I

4:56

just take general questions. And if you can't

4:58

make it live, I'll usually answer your question during

5:00

the session, and then you can watch the replay whenever

5:03

you want. Okay.

5:05

I think that's it for the intro. Let's get into

5:07

your questions. Our

5:11

first question comes from Alex.

5:13

He asks. Are there any

5:16

insights Lucio would be able to share

5:18

on the modern with quotes

5:20

and quotations, the modern wave of processing.

5:23

That seem to involve quite wild temperature

5:25

swings, AKA thermal shock.

5:28

And while it's less fermentation based, there

5:30

seems to be equal amounts discussed about

5:33

how the drying is modulating to

5:35

fix again in quotations, the

5:37

aromatics to the green coffee. Seems

5:40

a lot of terminology is thrown around sometimes

5:43

in seemingly contradictory ways for these

5:45

proprietary processes. And it would be super

5:47

interesting to hear Lucy his take on it. Alex,

5:50

I think this is really great. And. Okay.

5:52

So I'm going to try to avoid my usual

5:54

thing where I take one question and turn it into

5:57

an entire episode or multiple episodes,

5:59

because this one's quite fascinating, but

6:01

I want to honor. The

6:03

spirit of this episode, which is

6:05

trying to get through your listener questions and

6:07

give you maybe some way to think about

6:09

it. If not necessarily. I exhaust

6:12

the entire topic. So

6:14

I do think that this one requires a little bit of

6:16

background in case you haven't heard of this

6:18

process of Thermo shock. And.

6:22

Alex's right. I think one thing to really keep

6:24

in mind is that Thermo shock is not a type

6:27

of fermentation. Eight days and

6:29

method used in processing, in conjunction.

6:32

With a fermentation. And

6:34

this process involves exposing

6:36

coffee at any state. So you

6:38

can use their most shock in the cherry stage in

6:41

the parchment stage. And like you said, even

6:43

in the drying stage, so it's not restricted

6:45

to any one part of processing. It's

6:47

a method that you can. Apply

6:50

to the coffee fruit. The

6:53

coffee parchment or the seed

6:55

at any time. And it involves both extreme,

6:58

cold or extreme heat. One

7:00

place where. I could see

7:02

this making sense, is it, this

7:05

is a method used in other agricultural

7:07

processes. In. An

7:09

agribusiness in general. So something like

7:11

pasteurization or blanching. Pasteurization

7:15

is carried out in milk and wine and beer

7:17

and sauces and fruit juices. So this is something

7:19

very common to help stabilize and

7:22

reduce the microbial activity.

7:25

In those food products. So in

7:27

coffee, we haven't needed to do this

7:29

from a food safety point of view. We don't

7:31

need to pasteurize our coffee

7:33

because we. Do that when we roast

7:35

it, we have a heat step. We have a heat

7:37

kill step already built in. So

7:40

this additional heat for the fruit.

7:43

Hasn't traditionally been necessary for food

7:45

safety. However, now it's becoming

7:47

interesting for this idea

7:49

that Alex mentioned about quote, fixing

7:52

flavors about using heat to.

7:55

Trap some of the flavors that we're

7:57

making in fermentation. So

7:59

I guess what I want to say about The

8:01

process of adding

8:03

heat to cherries to reduce the microbial

8:06

load. I think it's an incredibly effective

8:08

method if that's why you're using it.

8:10

So I think being aware of why

8:12

Thermo shock is being. Used

8:15

is a good thing to keep in mind it. It

8:17

sounds really cool. It looks really cool on a label.

8:20

But it could be the opposite

8:23

of what you think. Right. So if you're

8:25

seeing Thermo shock and you think, oh, wow, maybe

8:27

this is going to be an extra. Flavorful

8:30

and extra interesting process, maybe.

8:32

Or maybe not, maybe the Thermo shock was used

8:35

to reduce the microbial load to

8:37

eliminate some of that microbial

8:39

activity and maybe create more of a flat

8:42

or. You know, plane profile. Or

8:45

it could be the first step using conjunction

8:48

with inoculation. So when you're adding

8:50

each and you're inoculating for your coffee,

8:53

it really helps your fermentation

8:55

to be secure if you're eliminating

8:57

the competition before you do your inoculation.

9:00

So Thermo shock could be used to,

9:02

you know, Really superheat

9:04

the cherries. For a very short

9:06

time. I think that's another thing to keep in mind

9:09

is for pasteurization in new it's high

9:11

temperature, short time. So maybe you

9:13

would be doing something like 80 degrees Celsius

9:15

for 30 seconds, right? You want it to be really

9:17

short, which means you need very specialized

9:20

equipment to be able to do that. So,

9:23

this is not. Traditionally

9:25

a cheap or a super accessible

9:27

step to a lot of coffee producers. You need

9:29

to have access to energy and you need

9:31

specialized equipment to. Achieve

9:34

something like this. But

9:36

again, I think it's really effective if we're reducing

9:38

the microbial load. So then we can inoculate

9:40

with something else. Something else

9:43

that I think is worth considering

9:45

is at this high temperature will also denature

9:48

or inactivate enzymes. Enzymes

9:50

potentially like a pectineus that helped

9:53

break down the mucilage and make it more accessible

9:56

for the fermentation. So you

9:58

could potentially notice maybe a

10:00

slowing down of the fermentation or

10:03

maybe reduced. Efficiency,

10:05

not that your fermentation won't work, but it's

10:07

something that if you're like, oh, I started

10:09

to do this temperature treatment and now my fermentations

10:12

are behaving a little bit differently. It

10:14

could be because of denaturing, those enzymes.

10:17

But. It could

10:19

not happen Because you are.

10:23

Producing the competition. And so

10:25

if you're inoculating with another microbe,

10:27

you could even see more increased activity

10:29

because you've eliminated your competition.

10:32

So I think this is, you know, not

10:35

a particularly satisfying answer because

10:37

microbiology is complicated, but those are

10:39

some of the things that I, I want you to think about

10:41

or the questions that you can ask sort of like, why

10:43

is this Thermo shock happening? Is

10:45

it too. Again, reduce.

10:47

So microbial activity to then inoculate

10:50

with something else. anD that's on the heat side.

10:52

So the other. End

10:55

of this could be cold, extreme,

10:58

cold. This is often used in

11:00

this, in this combination. to do

11:02

a high temperature short time. Treatment,

11:05

you would need to increase the temperature really

11:07

quickly for those 30 seconds, and then you need

11:09

to bring it back down. So it kind of has

11:11

to go hand in hand. You can't really just do the one

11:14

heat treatment and then not do an immediate

11:16

cold treatment because you have to bring the temperature

11:18

of the coffee back down as quickly as possible. So

11:21

that you don't damage the seat. So

11:23

this is the balance that we need to have

11:25

when we think about Thermo shock is that we want

11:27

to have high heat so

11:29

that we're affecting our microbes

11:31

and our enzymes in our coffee,

11:34

but not so much heat that we are. Killing

11:37

the germ that we are destroying.

11:40

The viability of the seat,

11:42

because if you kill the seed, Then

11:45

you get faded and

11:47

you are destroying the shelf life of your coffee.

11:49

So if you're not careful, so this is a

11:51

tool to be used with a lot of care,

11:53

because For the benefit of more flavor

11:56

or a more efficient process, you

11:59

could be compromising the shelf life of your

12:01

coffee. It'll taste really great. But

12:03

it'll fade, in a month it'll,

12:05

Get stale very quickly. I think another

12:07

thing I will share especially in the

12:09

drawing. Part is that we know

12:11

very well from studies done by

12:13

Flavio Bahram in Brazil. That

12:16

when you have coffee drying

12:18

at the temperatures above 60 Celsius.

12:21

They have microscope pictures

12:23

of cells have coffee seeds,

12:26

and you can see the cells and the ones

12:28

that were dried at around 40 degrees

12:30

Celsius. Our round

12:32

cells completely intact and.

12:34

They look like a normal cell when the temperature

12:37

has gone up to around 60

12:39

degrees Celsius. Then under the

12:41

microscope, you can see that these cells have

12:43

completely burst. It looks like, you

12:45

just. He had a bag full of groceries

12:47

and you just spilled it and everything just kind of rolling

12:49

around on the floor. So you can see that

12:52

the cells have spilled their contents because

12:54

the heat was too much at damage. The structure.

12:57

And that also, releases your volatile

12:59

compounds so that they're not available, for

13:01

your flavor. And then it also exposes

13:03

some oil so that you have more

13:05

exposure to oxygen oxidation,

13:08

therefore going stale

13:10

and branded. So

13:12

we know that in drying these extreme

13:14

temperatures are much more

13:16

of a concern for the longevity.

13:19

I think you have much more flexibility if you're doing

13:21

these heat treatments in cherry for

13:23

a short time for the microbial purpose.

13:26

So when I'm working with my clients, this

13:28

is not a process that I would recommend

13:30

that they start using. If

13:32

it's not something that's already in part of their protocol.

13:35

But for example, I do have one client that

13:37

uses Thermo shock that they started

13:39

before I arrived. And

13:41

they have to do it. They do cold storage

13:44

because are transporting their Sherry's from a,

13:47

a farm that's very far away. So it takes several

13:49

hours to get to their processing facility.

13:51

So they move it in a refrigerated truck.

13:53

So they have cherry that's incredibly

13:55

cold. And that's great because

13:57

you're preserving it during that stage. I think that's

14:00

really helpful. So they're trying

14:02

to also do it

14:04

from a microbiological point of view. They're trying

14:06

to prevent the microorganisms. That

14:08

are on the coffee cherries from

14:10

starting to activate before they can get it into

14:13

their facility. But then once they get

14:15

into their facility, then it warms up. They

14:18

have a long fermentation. And then because

14:21

they have these bioreactors that

14:23

they are able to control the temperature.

14:26

They can do maybe a. Let's

14:29

say 30 or 40 hour fermentation.

14:32

And then they can crash the tank. So this is

14:34

something that's used in beer and in wine where

14:36

you can have a fermentation happening at room temperature,

14:39

and then you chill it to freezing. You

14:41

don't want to freeze the liquid, but you chill it significantly

14:44

so that you crash the fermentation to let you can pause

14:47

it and then get to it when

14:49

you have more time. So it's kind of like, Yeah,

14:51

push pushing the pause button. And

14:54

this allows them to work. More

14:57

at their own pace. So we know that a lot of

14:59

coffee producers who don't have access to.

15:01

You know, this type of technology can get very

15:03

stressed because you're like, I need to deal with this right now.

15:06

And maybe you don't have enough workers or

15:09

it's, Four o'clock in the morning and nobody's

15:11

there and you may be miss your window. So,

15:13

this is a really wonderful tool to

15:15

be able to control the temperature of your fermentation

15:17

so that you can work on it. At

15:20

your leisure. However, my concern

15:22

was with the longevity of their seat. If

15:24

they're kind of freezing the cherry first and then getting

15:27

warm for your fermentation and they crashed

15:29

the tank. That's a lot of

15:31

physical stress. We know that when

15:33

water freezes, we get that expansion

15:36

and then contraction, when we

15:38

melt again. So, I'm not saying

15:40

that they're necessarily freezing

15:42

the cherry, but I think that when you're going

15:44

with extreme, cold and hot and then extreme cold,

15:46

again, you're stressing out the

15:48

cellular structure of the seed and that

15:50

stress. Compromises the longevity

15:53

of your seat. And maybe

15:56

that doesn't matter because you're able to sell

15:58

your coffee really quickly. Maybe you don't

16:01

even export it. Maybe it's consumed domestically, so

16:03

it doesn't have to travel and maybe you'll never notice a problem.

16:06

So it's not that it's bad.

16:08

It's that? It depends. Where is this coffee going?

16:10

Is this process going to help?

16:12

Or are you potentially compromising, for

16:15

a goal? Is this a coffee that needs to be exported

16:17

to Australia? And it's going to take, you know, five

16:19

months to get there. I don't think that

16:21

Thermo shock is a good. Method.

16:24

With coffees that need to survive

16:26

long travel distances

16:29

or that you want to house. For

16:31

a long time, let's say you want to buy a coffee and be able

16:33

to offer it. In your cafe

16:35

for a couple of months, four months,

16:37

six months, something like that. I wouldn't

16:40

look to a thermal shock coffee for that.

16:42

Or I'd be wary of that, but if you. Don't

16:45

have that issue. If you know, you're going to consume it right away,

16:47

or if it's pretty sold, then I think Thermo

16:49

shock is a really interesting tool to use.

16:52

Don't think we know enough about how it behaves

16:54

in coffee. And I think that we're getting

16:56

a little too excited, borrowing. This

16:58

method from again, beer and wine

17:00

and other industries. I do not

17:03

encourage temperature shocks as a tool

17:05

for my clients, but again, my goal

17:07

is not to create crazy coffee. I do

17:09

not create competition coffee. I'm

17:11

not interested in that type. I'm interested

17:14

in creating stable, homogenous and consistent

17:16

coffee. So for me, Thermo shock

17:19

is a high risk strategy. To

17:21

potentially fix some flavors,

17:23

increase some flavors. But ultimately

17:25

I think it really compromises the longevity

17:28

of that coffee. So just paying attention

17:30

to that. The

17:34

next question is from Natalia. Totally

17:36

different change of. pace.

17:39

She asks, how do you make your morning coffee?

17:41

Maybe it was answered before. So

17:44

I don't think I have ever talked about how I prepare

17:47

my coffee on the podcast, which I

17:49

think is a fair question

17:51

too. Ponder because

17:54

we talk about coffee. So I guess I

17:56

will share with you what I do. So

17:59

when I first started drinking coffee, seriously.

18:02

In 20 14, 20 15. I

18:04

started with a baby Cemex because

18:06

I was allured by the beauty of the brewer.

18:09

I thought it was so cute. I was eventually

18:11

talked out of this method by my friend, Tyler

18:13

Duncan. Who used to be at Topeka.

18:16

Roasters. But more recently started coracle

18:18

instant coffee. But anyway, Tyler.

18:20

He pointed out to me that the dramatic

18:23

angle of the baby Cemex, it's a very steep

18:25

angle. It's a very, thin, narrow cone.

18:28

Made my brewing more variable. And

18:30

I'm all about consistency. So as soon as he

18:32

said that, I. Decided

18:35

to look into other methods. And I started

18:37

using the V6. Pour over pretty much exclusively.

18:40

And there was a phase during our heavier

18:42

travel days that Nick and I had a

18:44

very long arrow press phase. So

18:47

I've gone through a couple of different brewers. I'm not

18:49

that interested in trying like the newest and

18:51

latest brewer. So it's not like I have a

18:53

ton of experience with all

18:56

of the brewers out in the, in the market.

18:58

I said, as you guys probably know, I'm I'm

19:00

most of a minimalist. I like to not have

19:03

that much gear. But I have

19:05

tried the clever dripper, which I also really like. But

19:07

today where we've landed in our house,

19:10

We tend to go back and forth between two. Right

19:12

now we have the Kalita wave and the origami

19:15

pour-over. So I definitely

19:17

love the ritual. I always make my coffee on

19:19

a scale. I have a gooseneck kettle. And

19:22

it's also really important for me, that

19:24

glassware that I drink out of. So

19:26

I like to drink out of like a heavy ceramic

19:29

mug. I like a nice stoneware.

19:31

I do sometimes drink

19:33

out of the sense cup. The sense is

19:35

this really beautiful, delicate class.

19:38

I love a thin lip. It's really beautiful. It makes coffee

19:41

look beautiful. And sometimes I'll,

19:43

I'll drink out of that. But I find

19:45

myself more and more going back to like

19:47

a heavy ceramic. Feeling, I like having

19:49

that kind of weight. In my hand. I

19:52

will also share that I am not an

19:54

espresso person. I have not yet learned

19:56

the art of enjoying and espressos. I

19:59

like my poor overs Next

20:03

question is from BCU. It

20:06

says, my question is purely consumer facing.

20:08

As I don't have much knowledge on what goes on behind

20:10

the scenes. Just really curious out

20:12

of all of the labels that roasters are putting on

20:14

their bags, which one are the ones that are really

20:16

important. Well, if you

20:18

listen to episode 59 the

20:20

episode right before this one, I actually go

20:22

into this in quite a lot of detail.

20:25

It's probably like a 20 minute answer

20:27

on what I personally think is important.

20:30

On a coffee label or what I look for.

20:32

Because there can be. You

20:35

know, it almost looks like the. The credits rolling

20:37

at the end of a movie where you just have all

20:39

of this information kind of rolling by. And for

20:42

me, I think that it can create

20:44

a lot of noise when, you

20:46

know, we don't, we don't know what we're looking at or just this,

20:49

this flooding of information.

20:51

Which. What I mentioned in that

20:54

episode is that I think that that

20:56

was very important to start to differentiate

20:58

specialty coffee from commodity coffee

21:00

to say, You know, this isn't anonymous.

21:03

Random coffee. Look at all this information

21:05

that, that I, the roaster know about this

21:08

coffee, so that you know, that it's you know, it,

21:10

it gives this nod

21:12

towards traceability, like this

21:14

isn't anonymous coffee, because look at all this information

21:16

I know about it. But I don't necessarily

21:19

think that's helpful for a consumer.

21:21

Like, I think that's good to have, and I think that's a good

21:23

philosophy to have, but

21:25

I don't think it translates to people just

21:28

trying to learn what kind of coffee they like.

21:30

I think it can be really overwhelming and I think it

21:32

can be confusing. So

21:34

I much prefer simpler

21:37

labels. I like to have You

21:40

know, Identifying markers

21:42

so that you, as a consumer can know what to look

21:44

for, if you want to explore and repeat.

21:46

So, you know, what I mentioned in that episode

21:48

is I think it's really important to talk about.

21:51

The producer, like the chain of custody,

21:53

the provenance of this coffee. So it's not

21:55

just the roaster, but it also talks

21:57

about who had custody of the coffee

21:59

before the roaster did. I think that's important.

22:02

As well as the variety plant

22:04

genetics, I want to see the cultivar on

22:06

there because then you start to learn too as a consumer.

22:09

Oh wow. The last 10

22:11

coffees that I've liked are really good and they're all were born.

22:14

So then, you know I'm pretty safe.

22:16

If I find another board one. I

22:19

think it's also important to have the

22:21

processing. And then that's why that episode

22:23

got really long is talking about. How

22:25

much processing information is important,

22:27

but just a general guideline. I'm okay.

22:29

If it says washed, you know, or dried

22:31

in fruit, like just something that says, how

22:33

were these cherries treated? So

22:36

to review, I like to know. Who.

22:40

Grew the coffee. Where

22:42

was it grown as specifically as you can

22:44

sort of in the region? Like what, what

22:46

part of the world? And not just country, but

22:48

if you can get region specific or sub

22:51

region, I think that's really helpful. And.

22:54

The plant variety so that you know, that genetics

22:56

that you're drinking and then the processing,

22:58

I think with those four. Simple

23:01

like that gives you a good baseline. Personally

23:04

don't buy coffees, looking on altitude,

23:07

which is what the last episode was about.

23:09

So I don't think that's necessary information

23:11

to put on the bag. And then I am also

23:13

not looking for any certifications.

23:16

So my. Buying

23:18

decision is not swayed by

23:21

organic. Fair trade

23:23

bird friendly. Carbon neutral.

23:26

Women powered coffee, any of those things,

23:29

not that those things aren't important and aren't good.

23:31

And are not things worthy of being supported.

23:33

I'm just sharing with you what I look for when I buy

23:35

a coffee. So if I have to coffee side

23:38

by side, and one says, Fair

23:40

trade. And the other one doesn't that doesn't change my

23:42

purchasing decision. I look at those other

23:44

things first. And

23:46

then if there's maybe some other additional

23:48

marker. Sure. I maybe

23:51

consider it. But I think that most of

23:53

those. Systems are poorly

23:55

regulated. Kind of there's

23:57

so much. Politics. Involved

24:00

in that. That it's

24:02

not how I make a purchasing decision

24:04

for coffee, and it's not necessarily

24:06

what I want to see at the expense

24:08

of the other information. But

24:10

what I think is interesting about this conversation that

24:12

maybe I didn't explore too much in the last episode

24:15

is that. I think,

24:17

not just looking at what the label says,

24:19

but looking at. What a roaster

24:22

decides to put on the label, tells you a lot

24:24

about their values and tells you a lot about

24:26

what they find important. It's more of a psychology

24:28

exercise to see if you know, what

24:30

they think is important, aligns with what

24:32

you feel is important. And I guess

24:34

just that feeling of like, do you feel good

24:36

buying this coffee? And that's, that's so

24:39

personal. And that's so arbitrary.

24:42

But yeah. I guess that's all I have to

24:44

say about that. This

24:49

next question comes from Margo. Margo

24:52

asks. How do you know when you've hit the

24:54

one for both fermenting and roasting?

24:56

It seems like there's a lot of tinkering done on

24:58

both profiles. When do you know that? You've

25:01

nailed it. Are there ways to get

25:03

to that point other than pure small batch experimentation.

25:07

This is also a question that could really

25:09

go into philosophy for, for a while.

25:11

I don't think there is a single the one

25:14

coffee fermentation, or even, you

25:16

know, a roasting profiles soulmate.

25:19

I don't think that there is just one option. I

25:22

think that there are many options. And I think

25:24

it's more about reverse engineering.

25:26

So thinking about what are our needs and

25:29

then how do we accommodate them? So

25:31

for fermentation. I'll take

25:33

a fermentation example. First let's say I

25:35

have a specific client in mind. Or

25:37

a certain market. Like, let's say I want to

25:39

sell to Korea or Dubai.

25:42

And I know in general,

25:44

those flavor profiles, those markets,

25:46

like kind of the extreme, fruity boozy

25:48

flavors. So then I think about

25:51

in those situations, my perfect fermentation

25:53

would be one where we play up the temperature

25:56

extremes and maybe go for

25:58

extended times. Or

26:00

the opposite. Let's say I know that my

26:02

clients don't like boozy,

26:04

whiny whiskey characters in their

26:06

coffee. I know that they like more of a classic

26:08

profile. I would then look for

26:11

reduced temperatures in my fermentation.

26:13

I would reduce the oxygen contact during

26:15

the fermentation. And I would not

26:17

go for extended times. I would stay within

26:20

maybe that 30 to 40 hours

26:22

of contact time. So

26:25

in those cases, the one really

26:27

depends on who you're trying to target

26:29

and who's going to ultimately be buying or

26:31

drinking this coffee. So I would first

26:33

figure out what kind of coffee you want

26:35

to make. And then I would have worked backwards.

26:38

And you can reverse engineer a fermentation

26:40

in this way. So you definitely don't have

26:42

to do what most producers do, which

26:44

is just try a bunch of different things.

26:47

Throw spaghetti at the wall cup,

26:49

a bunch of coffees, and then, you know, sort

26:51

of see where you land. You can be much more thoughtful

26:53

and much more methodical when you have some of these.

26:56

fermentation principle, some of these like little

26:58

basics of temperature time. anD

27:01

then oxygen contact. So you can reverse engineer.

27:04

The flavor profile that you're trying to go

27:06

for. It still matters. What genetics

27:08

is still matters. What. Coffee,

27:11

you are fermenting with these methods

27:13

because that'll also help kind of

27:15

accentuate kind of like turn up or turn down

27:17

the volume. But in general,

27:19

you don't have to go into a fermentation blind,

27:22

which is what most coffee producers do.

27:24

Let's say, however, you don't know your

27:26

target, you, you don't know what you're

27:28

headed for. Maybe you're a producer who

27:31

doesn't have the luxury to pick and choose your clients

27:33

this way yet. And you don't know what they

27:35

want. And in that case, I would keep

27:37

the flavor profile more classic

27:40

so that you can cast a wider net. If

27:42

you don't have a client yet making

27:45

a really polarizing coffee flavor profile.

27:48

Is more risky. And

27:50

maybe that's your personality, you know, high risk,

27:52

high reward, but most of the coffee producers

27:54

I have met and have worked with are highly

27:56

risk averse. So playing

27:58

it safe is still really the best advice

28:01

if you don't already have a customer. In

28:03

that case, I would, you know, design

28:05

a processing protocol that is really easy

28:07

to replicate and then execute. And.

28:11

You know, maybe that doesn't give you a crazy wild

28:13

flavor that you can get a really high price

28:16

for. But if you make a process that is

28:18

simple. Then, if you find

28:20

a client that likes it, you can easily scale

28:22

up. They're like, oh, I like these five bags next

28:24

year. I'd like to get 20 or 50. And

28:27

you feel confident that you can do that? And

28:29

if you also keep the process simple if

28:32

the prices are fluctuating, at least

28:34

you can control your overhead a little bit more. At

28:36

least you haven't purchased a bunch of tanks

28:38

or a bunch of microbes or

28:41

a, you know, invested in making a 100

28:43

hour process and you have to pay more people to work

28:45

a hundred hours versus doing a 20 hour fermentation.

28:48

If we keep it simple, we can also, you know,

28:50

reduce the cost of production in these

28:52

uncertain times. So

28:55

that's my general advice. I would answer

28:57

this a little bit. Differently

28:59

for a traditional coffee producer.

29:02

But because I know Margo, I know where

29:04

this question is coming from. Margo

29:06

has the ability to process

29:09

and roast coffee in a very close loop

29:11

that vertical integration, which is very rare

29:13

for most coffee producers. Few

29:15

producers have the ability to, roast

29:18

profile their coffee. But I know that Margot does.

29:20

So. She's right. There's a lot of tinkering

29:23

done on both processing and roasting

29:25

and there are an infinite.

29:28

Combination of this fermentation

29:30

with this roast profile. So

29:32

to not drive yourself crazy.

29:34

I wouldn't do what most people

29:36

do, which is again, this experimenting

29:39

blindly and tweak. That's how you end up

29:41

with. You know, 40 combinations and

29:43

total overload. So I

29:45

would use the guiding principle

29:48

of what do you like to drink?

29:51

I remember hearing. This about

29:53

music. I, I wish I could remember who said this.

29:56

But it's stuck in my brain as the

29:58

advice with this. Artist.

30:00

I gave, and it said never sing a song you don't

30:02

like, because it might end up being a hit.

30:05

And you'll be stuck singing the damn thing forever.

30:08

So I would give the same advice for

30:10

your coffee, with your coffee profile.

30:13

Look for something or think about something,

30:15

making something that you like and that you

30:17

like to drink because you should

30:19

be the master of quality control. If

30:22

you personally, don't like boozy whisky

30:24

coffees. How are you going to taste 10

30:26

versions of a boozy whiskey flavor, coffee,

30:28

and decide which one is good. All right.

30:30

So then it's up to other people

30:32

to tell you what's good. And then you don't have

30:35

that. That control

30:37

you don't have that. Judgment

30:39

in your hands. So,

30:41

if you make something that you like and

30:44

that you like to drink, you will know

30:46

when it's getting better. You will

30:48

know when you're getting closer

30:50

or further away. And if you're headed

30:53

in the right direction or if you're kind

30:55

of lost in a spiral somewhere, so.

30:59

I think that's. Something that's missing.

31:01

From a lot of coffee producers, you know, they ask

31:03

me what other people want.

31:05

And I'm like, well, That's

31:07

really hard to know what other people want.

31:10

But if you know what you want, then you have that guiding

31:12

light. So, yeah, my best advice

31:15

is make something that you like. So that

31:17

you are the best judge.

31:19

kNowing what direction that you're heading in. Okay,

31:25

this next question is from shepherd. Shepherd

31:28

asks. Okay. I

31:30

got something that is bothering me, listening

31:32

to it a third time in episode 30,

31:34

when it's about sugar, moving out when drying

31:37

on raised beds. The statement

31:39

is that sugar is moving out

31:41

in the same direction as water. Out.

31:44

But since the water is not really flowing,

31:46

but evaporating, if that's what's happening.

31:48

Shouldn't the sugar stay, where it is while

31:51

the water is leaving. I'm

31:54

really glad that shepherd ask this clarifying

31:56

question, because I definitely feel

31:59

bad that it was not clear in

32:01

the original episode and that other of you

32:03

were. Confused about this

32:06

concept. What I meant to say.

32:08

What it should be saying is that. If

32:10

sugar was moving. And so this is

32:12

the idea of honeys

32:15

and dry process coffees being

32:17

sweeter because the mucilage on the outside

32:20

is. Infusing into

32:22

the seed is going into the seed it's it's

32:24

sweeter because of that reason. I

32:27

said if that was happening, if sugar

32:29

was able to move across those boundaries,

32:31

which it's not too gross as much

32:34

too large of a molecule to move,

32:36

to permeate the the cells of the

32:38

parchment and get into the seed. So that

32:40

doesn't happen, but if it did.

32:43

Then the only direction would actually be out,

32:46

not in. So the point shepherd

32:48

is that it doesn't happen in either case.

32:50

Sugar is not moving into

32:52

the seed. And it's also

32:55

during drying, not moving out

32:57

of the seed because as you're saying, yes, the

32:59

water is leaving very gently. So

33:01

the sugar is not. Flowing

33:03

out in that sense, cause

33:06

sugar can't move, but if it could, it

33:08

would be more logical because sugar is

33:10

hygroscopic attracted to water. It

33:12

would be more logical that the sugar would move out.

33:14

Then it would move in. So my point

33:16

is that. a nonsensical

33:19

reason. It's a nonsensical concept

33:22

that sugar would get into the seed during a honey

33:24

or a dry process. Coffee. Because

33:27

that's not how physics works. But

33:30

there is a point when sugar does

33:32

flow out of the seed and that is not

33:35

during drying, but during the fermentation.

33:37

So a wet process coffee, if it's submerged.

33:40

Underwater and it's completely. Surrounded

33:43

by water. Then the glucose

33:45

and fructose that's in the green seed does

33:48

tend to flow out because it is attracted

33:50

to water. And in that case, there's a lot of water

33:52

available in a submerged fermentation

33:55

tank. And in studies, they've

33:57

seen that the sugar can drop up to

33:59

90%. So if you have

34:01

the same coffee and you process one

34:03

and you split the lot and you process it as a

34:05

wet process, Pulped submerged underwater.

34:07

And then you do the other one dry process

34:09

or a honey. when you analyze

34:12

the contents. You can see that the wet

34:14

process has up to 90%

34:16

last glucose and fructose inside the seed.

34:19

So we know that submerged

34:21

allows the sugar to come out.

34:24

However, I don't want people to be alarmed with that

34:26

dramatic number of 90%, less sugar,

34:28

because we know that wet process coffees are

34:30

not 90% less sweet.

34:33

There's a lot of other. Components

34:35

that go into making a wet process, coffee,

34:37

sweet. You know, in our fermentation we're

34:39

making polysaccharides. So we get

34:41

that heaviness of the molecules. We get

34:43

that syrupy flavor, we're creating

34:45

different esters and thiols so you get that fruity

34:48

component. So if you have something that

34:50

tastes fruity. And has

34:52

thickness and weight like. Syrup

34:55

or honey then. Your brain fills in

34:57

that sweetness. Your brain says this coffee is sweet,

35:00

even if you don't necessarily have that sugar

35:02

in there, but it's just interesting to note.

35:04

That if, if you're a scientist and you have access

35:07

to this equipment, And

35:09

where you can measure. The sucrose

35:11

and the seed you can knowing

35:13

absolutely nothing about the coffee, even not

35:15

even looking at it visually, just by looking at a printout

35:18

of the contents of the seed. You can

35:20

tell how this coffee was processed. You

35:22

can be blindly given some

35:25

green seeds. Run them in your machine

35:27

and say, ah, this coffee was a

35:29

natural dry process, or this coffee was

35:31

wet process just by how much sugar

35:33

is in the seed. I think that's a really, really interesting,

35:35

you don't have to look at it. You don't have to taste

35:37

it. By looking at it. I mean, looking at the

35:39

physical green, cause we know that a green seed

35:42

of a wash coffee looks different, physically

35:44

looks different than a dry process. Coffee.

35:47

So, I'm sorry if that was confusing. I hope

35:50

my answer right now. Wasn't even more confusing.

35:52

So I'll just summarize again. No

35:55

during drying the sugar does not come

35:57

out. While it's drying, but

35:59

during a wet submerged fermentation,

36:02

The sugar can come out because you need all

36:04

of that water to attract

36:06

the sugar, but not

36:08

to worry because it doesn't mean that you're

36:10

getting a less sweet tasting

36:13

coffee because there's other things that we can do

36:15

in a fermentation to compensate.

36:17

So it's not necessarily the sugar,

36:20

the sucrose and glucose and fructose that's giving us

36:22

sweetness. It's some of those other precursors

36:24

that we get in fermentation that make

36:26

our brain perceive sweetness. So

36:29

I think. Just to reiterate, we've

36:31

been looking at our sugar conversation in a

36:33

very simplistic way. It's much more

36:35

complicated, layered. But

36:37

that's good news because. We

36:40

don't have to be. Too worried about sugar.

36:42

We don't have to be so concerned about getting super

36:44

high bricks. In our cherry and

36:46

we don't have to be worried about doing a

36:49

wet process. That. As

36:51

pulling some of those sugars out of the seat, you

36:53

can still find a balance in any

36:55

process. You just have to keep these things in mind. Okay,

37:01

this next question is from Yani. The

37:04

question is I'm currently researching

37:06

the genealogy of citrus fruits. They

37:09

seem to have originated in Asia. How

37:11

do we get citrus flavors in coffee,

37:13

which is not something that originated in

37:15

Africa. So

37:18

I really like this question because it speaks

37:20

to a couple of different concepts

37:23

that are really. Easily confused.

37:26

For example. If I have

37:28

a yellow flower growing next to

37:31

a red flower, at some point they may

37:33

cross pollinate and we will get an orange

37:35

flower. Right. So we know plants growing

37:37

near each other can influence. These

37:40

characteristics, we can have a tall one and a

37:42

short one, and maybe they cross-pollinate and we

37:44

get a medium one, something like that. We

37:46

know that this happens in plants. But

37:49

flavors. In fermentation.

37:51

Don't work this way. That's not how the citrus

37:53

gets into the fruit. So a coffee

37:56

that has a flavor of citrus. Didn't

37:58

come by that citrus flavor because

38:00

there was a citrus nearby at

38:02

some point. It's because.

38:05

The citrus flavor is coming from

38:08

the microbes in the fermentation.

38:11

And that's how we can get some of these.

38:13

Interesting flavors. So for

38:16

example, A coffee cherry

38:18

will have all kinds of microbes on

38:20

its surface. We've talked about this many times and

38:22

that's coming from soil. That's coming. From,

38:25

other insects landing on it. It's coming from

38:27

our water supply. It's coming from just

38:29

all over the environment. There's all these microbes

38:32

that are already present on

38:34

coffee cherries. And these can include bacteria,

38:36

yeast, and fungi. So

38:39

we've talked many times on

38:41

this podcast about sacrificing

38:43

service EA because Saccharomyces is

38:45

the the geese that I use the most for.

38:48

My fermentations it's one that

38:50

has a lot of research done in terms of.

38:53

The metabolism of the yeasts and

38:55

the. Flavor compounds that they can

38:57

produce. And. We

39:00

know that sacrifices, certain strains

39:02

of sacrifice he's can produce a

39:04

terpene called limonene that

39:07

has the flavor descriptor

39:09

of citrus and sweet.

39:11

And there's another one. Another compound called

39:13

linalool. Which is

39:15

described as citrus, but a little

39:17

bit more floral. And

39:20

linalool. When I first smelled pure

39:23

linalool, to me, it smells like fruit

39:25

loops. There's this. Cereal.

39:28

With colorful cereal that smells like fruit loops

39:30

with that. Roma for me has always

39:32

been linalool. And

39:34

Saccharomyces when they're fermenting can

39:36

create both of these compounds, limonene,

39:38

citrus, and linalool. So citrus has also

39:41

a whole host of different compounds.

39:44

That give that, citrus aroma.

39:48

And not just Saccharomyces, but also

39:50

certain strains of lactobacillus can

39:53

also create lemonade and linalool

39:55

in their fermentation. So both yeast

39:58

and bacteria. Can create

40:00

these compounds and not

40:02

just that, but certain strains of

40:05

fungi can also

40:07

create these compounds. I

40:09

was reading a paper recently. It's all Lincoln

40:11

in the show notes. It's called. Relationship

40:13

between the different aspects related to coffee,

40:15

quality and their volatile compounds. So

40:18

this is, was new information for me. Cause I really

40:20

focus on yeast and bacteria. I

40:22

don't really focus on fungi because. They're

40:25

mostly associated with defects,

40:27

but you know, Not all

40:29

the time. For example, there is

40:31

a in rock coffee seeds that were inoculated

40:34

with penicillium. Um,

40:36

they identified volatile compounds that included

40:38

aldehyde. So to Okta NOL and detrimental.

40:41

Anil and ketones. And

40:44

these compounds are generally characterized

40:46

by citrus or fresh

40:48

notes. In each of these three categories,

40:51

there are. Strains. That

40:53

produce the citrus. Volatile

40:56

compound. So it doesn't come from.

40:59

Coffee being grown near or

41:02

by any citrus or maybe being crossed

41:04

with citrus some point and it's. Ancient.

41:06

History. But it has to do

41:08

with the microbes, present, able to do

41:10

the fermentation. I hope that's clear.

41:17

The next question is from follow. So

41:19

he says, I drank this mystery coffee in August.

41:21

You have to guess the country processing variety

41:24

as well as the flavors. So when Paula

41:26

got the coffee, it was a mystery. He

41:28

didn't know where the country or the processing

41:31

or, or whatever. He didn't know anything about it. And

41:33

then he found out after tasting

41:35

it and getting his first impression. That

41:38

it was a Caturra from Panama

41:40

Finca. And

41:42

he says the strange thing is that

41:44

the coffee had Ethiopian notes. So

41:47

his notes are lemon cooked,

41:49

lemon, green tea, honey. He

41:52

said, initially we tasted Mandarin, but

41:54

the coffee lost its flavors quickly after

41:56

roasting and it became flat in one month. First

41:59

question. Why did this prolonged

42:01

anaerobic honey processing create

42:03

wash notes. So why

42:05

did one process mimic

42:08

another one? And I think this also

42:10

has to do with his, his question about.

42:13

This is a coffee from Panama,

42:16

but for him it tasted like an

42:18

Ethiopian. So not only is

42:20

there a, an origin.

42:23

Kind of mimicry. Central American coffee

42:25

was mimicking an African coffee,

42:28

but also in the process, he was surprised

42:30

that this wash process was mimicking

42:33

a. honey process something else. So

42:36

that was the first question. And the second question is

42:39

can the process be the cause of its rapid

42:41

degradation or are there other

42:43

problems, for example, the air travel

42:45

of the green beans. So

42:48

I like this one because it also talks about this lemon.

42:51

Flavor compound the citrus note. That

42:54

is not the monopoly

42:56

of a certain variety. Or the

42:58

monopoly of a certain country.

43:01

Or the monopoly of a certain. Microbe

43:04

or process, right? Because bacteria

43:06

can produce citrus notes. Yeast can

43:08

produce a Trish notes. And now even

43:10

I just learned even fungi can produce

43:13

these citrus notes. So

43:15

wherever you have a combination

43:17

of. Some of these microbes,

43:19

you can create citrus notes. Anywhere

43:22

with any process. Meaning

43:25

you can have a dry process with these microbes.

43:28

And you can get a citrus characteristic or you can

43:31

do a wet process. With

43:33

these microbes and still get a citrus characteristic.

43:35

So Palo's question is how

43:37

did this central American mimic.

43:41

An African, or how did this wash to mimic

43:43

this other process? And

43:45

the fundamental like foundational

43:48

flaw in the, in the question

43:50

is a premise that flavor only

43:52

comes from a certain country or flavor only

43:55

comes from a certain process. Right.

43:57

Like a honey can only taste like

43:59

a honey because it was dried on raised

44:01

beds with its mucilage. Or

44:03

a wash can only taste like a washed.

44:06

If it was pulped and fermented submerged.

44:09

For a certain number of hours. So the flaw

44:12

is thinking that the flavor comes from

44:14

the process. Not

44:16

from the microbes that are present in

44:18

that process. That's how you can get this

44:20

crossing over of

44:23

flavor, like a flavor that's traditionally

44:26

associated with something and have

44:28

it show up somewhere else. So for example

44:31

one of our participants and FTC three,

44:34

Julie. As processing coffee

44:36

in Hawaii and on her farm,

44:38

they don't have a lot of access to water. So

44:40

she processes in a dry process

44:42

in a natural way, which we have in

44:44

association with natural coffees, being

44:47

heavy bodied, really fruity

44:49

and then very prone to getting,

44:51

you know, this whiny boozy over

44:54

ferment defect. So

44:56

she doesn't personally like that flavor profile.

44:59

She likes a wash profile, but she doesn't

45:01

have access to a lot of water. And she

45:03

also doesn't want to produce a coffee that uses

45:05

a lot of water because of ecological reasons.

45:08

So she's found a way to increase

45:10

the moisture. Of of

45:13

her cherries when she's fermenting in the beginning,

45:15

so that she's encouraging. The environment

45:17

more associated with a wet process.

45:20

So that her dry process coffees

45:23

actually tastes like washed. So,

45:26

you know, that's a mimicry there

45:28

just kind of using our environment.

45:30

But it works out because that's the coffee that she's trying

45:33

to make and she can make it with fewer resources.

45:35

So just because you do dry

45:37

it and cherry. Dry process.

45:40

Doesn't mean you have to always get the

45:42

flavors associated with that process.

45:45

If you know what you're tweaking. So I

45:47

hope this is wasn't more confusing, but the

45:49

point Paolo is that this is not

45:51

a fluke. This is not

45:54

something that is. Crazy.

45:57

This is something that's, anybody can do

45:59

is looking at the microbes that are

46:01

present in that environment. We can mimic something

46:03

else. And you can absolutely

46:05

have a central American coffee tastes like an

46:08

Ethiopian or an Ethiopian tastes like

46:10

a central American coffee. That's

46:13

that's very normal. And that is because

46:15

the flavor is not coming. Exclusively

46:17

from the location or the variety

46:19

or the process. It's a combination of

46:21

those things. Plus. An

46:24

addition of the microbes that are in

46:26

those environments. And

46:29

his second question. Can the process

46:31

be the cause of this rapid degradation?

46:34

Yes, this is what we were talking about at the

46:36

beginning of the episode where I have

46:38

seen this. Come up time

46:40

and time again and coffees that I've tasted. And

46:42

then in comments from, from you guys, Is

46:45

that you'll have these extended processes,

46:47

these Thermo shocks these anaerobics

46:50

500 hour fermentations and they have

46:52

really intense flavors and they're

46:54

impressive. But you almost

46:57

can't even finish a single bag before

46:59

the flavor has faded, so they're incredibly

47:02

volatile. They're incredibly

47:04

delicate flavors that can disappear

47:06

really quickly. you have this

47:08

trade-off and yes, maybe

47:10

because this copy had to travel far. Um,

47:13

by the time it got to Paulo in Italy,

47:15

most of the, you know, flavor

47:17

life or the longevity of that coffee.

47:20

Had been significantly reduced from the travel.

47:22

But I really don't think it's mostly

47:25

the travel because coffee. As we

47:27

know travels very far all the time. So

47:30

I think that a lot of the fade is more

47:32

coming from. The harsh

47:34

way that the coffee

47:36

is being treated, the processing

47:39

and not from a

47:41

little long. Travel times.

47:47

Thanks again for spending your time with me today. This

47:50

is a completely community driven effort.

47:52

I keep making new episodes because of the listeners

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48:12

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48:14

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49:03

a. Thanks for listening.

49:06

And remember, life's too short to

49:08

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