0:21

Hello, and welcome to a new episode

0:23

of Making Coffee with Lucia Soli. It's

0:26

the end of March and it's the tail end of

0:28

our third harvest in Guatemala. It's

0:31

been a while since I sat down to record my thoughts,

0:33

so I was tempted to do a longer intro

0:36

and catch everyone up on the last few months.

0:39

But as I've been listening to new podcasts, I

0:41

find myself getting impatient with long intros.

0:44

There are exceptions, of course, namely podcasts

0:47

I have been listening to for years where

0:49

a long rambling intro feels like catching

0:51

up with a friend instead of a barrier. But

0:54

when I find a new podcast, when

0:56

I'm jumping in cold, anything over two

0:58

minutes has me impatiently wondering when

1:00

they are gonna get to the point. If

1:03

you're new here and clicks because of the naturals title,

1:06

I don't want you to click away just yet. In

1:09

essence, this is a rambling podcast.

1:11

I am a long-winded narrator. There

1:14

will be tangents, there will be stories,

1:16

and I do my best to include practical

1:18

advice in an effort to have a better conversation.

1:22

I will try to replace the vague term naturals

1:24

with the term dry process or whole cherry

1:27

as often as I can remember, but

1:29

inevitably I will slip back into using

1:31

the colloquial term naturals. Also,

1:35

since this is a podcast that often compares

1:37

and contrasts widen coffee, I do

1:40

want to start by disambiguating these terms

1:42

because they refer to very different concepts

1:44

in their respective beverages. If

1:47

we are speaking about natural wine. That

1:49

means non inoculation with a commercial

1:51

yeast strain and no use of preservatives

1:53

like sulfur dioxide. The

1:55

norm in modern day wine making is commercial

1:58

inoculation, so the term natural

2:00

wines signals going against the grain,

2:02

a rejection of the status quo, rebellious

2:05

wine. If we

2:07

are speaking about coffee. A natural

2:09

coffee has nothing to do with microbes or

2:11

fermentation. Instead, it refers

2:14

to how the coffee cherries are treated a

2:16

natural coffee. The coffee cherries

2:18

remain intact during processing and

2:21

dry with their skin Still on. This

2:23

is why it's less confusing to talk about this

2:25

process as whole cherry because

2:27

many of the newer methods involve submerging

2:30

the cherries underwater. So even

2:32

if water is involved, it's still referred to

2:34

as dry process. This

2:36

is in contrast to wet process where the

2:38

outer exo carp is removed and the

2:40

sticky sugar and pectin rich mucilage

2:42

is exposed during processing and drying.

2:46

Coffee is so unbothered by imprecise

2:48

terms that it is possible to have

2:50

a water submerged dry process

2:53

or a wet processed coffee that never met

2:55

a drop of water. So if at

2:57

times during this episode you feel like some

2:59

concepts are too rudimentary, just

3:01

remember that coffee is sloppy and we often

3:03

think we are speaking of the same thing when

3:06

we are actually miles apart. So

3:09

in today's episode, I will share with you my very

3:11

first ever whole cherry fermentations

3:14

on this farm. And you may be

3:16

asking yourself why you should listen to someone

3:18

who is admitting to not having done this style

3:20

of processing before. In

3:23

my defense, I have been fermenting

3:25

fruit for a living since 2008, and I

3:27

have 10 years of experience fermenting wash

3:30

coffees. So fermenting whole cherries

3:32

is not a completely foreign endeavor.

3:35

Actually, I don't want to gloss over this point

3:37

just yet. I am seeing a lot

3:39

of advice and information shared from people

3:41

who are passionate about a subject, and

3:43

that's great. They also have insight to share,

3:46

but I feel there is an imbalance of people sharing

3:48

advice who make a living from the thing that

3:50

they are talking about and

3:53

not just make a living from talking about it.

3:56

this is not a podcast by someone

3:58

who really loves coffee or

4:00

someone who reads a lot of research or textbooks.

4:03

Science is great, but small scale

4:05

studies can miss a lot of the practical elements.

4:08

So I am not sharing today's information

4:10

from a place of passion or interest

4:13

at this point in time. Processing coffee

4:15

is how I keep a roof over my head and

4:17

food on the table. There

4:20

was a time when a significant portion of my

4:22

income came from your support for this podcast.

4:24

So talking about coffee was important,

4:27

but in the last few years, that percentage

4:29

has shifted and Nick and I make

4:31

more from coffee sales than podcast

4:33

donations. Part of the

4:36

reason why is because this podcast exists

4:38

solely on your support and Patreon. I

4:41

listen to a lot of podcasts and get annoyed

4:43

at the interruptions. Thanks to Patreon,

4:45

you don't have to worry about being in the middle of a coffee

4:47

story and listen to me, interrupt myself

4:50

to encourage you to do online therapy

4:52

or get a new mattress. Now

4:54

what I share about coffee processing even

4:56

more directly affects my family's income

4:59

because I need to sell this coffee, not

5:01

just the words. As they

5:03

say, the proof is in the pudding, or

5:06

the longer expression, the proof of the pudding

5:08

is in the eating. So

5:11

why should you listen to me about naturals? While

5:14

I specialize in pulp to wash coffees,

5:16

not whole cherry slash dry process

5:18

naturals, I do have some thoughts

5:20

about their place in specialty. And while

5:22

I am not an economist and generally stay away

5:24

from topics like that in this podcast, since

5:27

my income is directly affected, I have

5:29

some things to share about the economics of dry

5:31

and wet process for today's coffee producers.

5:35

Now, let me tell you how I inadvertently picked

5:38

the worst possible year to set up

5:40

my first dry process natural

5:42

trials. Okay,

5:44

let's jump back to the very beginning of harvest,

5:47

December 6th, 2024. For

5:49

many people. December is a quiet

5:51

month. Many people take time

5:54

off for the holidays, and business generally

5:56

grinds to a halt. However,

5:59

if you're a coffee farmer or producer in Guatemala,

6:01

it's the busiest time of the year. The

6:04

coffee cherries are ripe and need to be harvested

6:06

and processed. Nick and I

6:08

could have started our coffee fermentations a

6:10

little later in December, but we wanted

6:13

to start as soon as possible so we could have fresh

6:15

coffee to share for FTCA

6:17

Fermentation Camp Workshop that I host for producers

6:20

to teach them how to use microbiology to their advantage.

6:24

Because of the upcoming workshop, we had several

6:26

coffees drying on the patio by Christmas time

6:29

on December 26th at 3:00 AM

6:32

we were awakened by the sound of rain.

6:35

I imagine that while most people were fast

6:37

asleep after a day of family food and

6:39

drinks and contrast, Nick

6:41

and I lay awake with our hearts racing

6:43

and panic in our eyes. If

6:47

this was any other time of the year, the sound

6:49

of rain would soothe and coax us to sleep.

6:52

Rainy nights on the farm are a special kind

6:54

of peaceful because the falling rain

6:56

drowns out the coyote howls the dog

6:58

barking and the sounds of traffic. However,

7:02

in December, the sound of rain

7:04

brings nothing but anxiety. Anxiety,

7:07

because the drying method at this benefic

7:09

is 100% concrete

7:11

patios, 100% open

7:14

and 100% exposed.

7:17

In an Guatemala, the wet and dry

7:19

seasons are historically so demarcated

7:22

that you can almost set your watch to them December

7:25

through April. The coffee harvest season is

7:27

also the dry season. Our summer

7:30

and may to November is the wet season.

7:32

Our winter, the wet season

7:34

is very wet. Usually by

7:36

the end of November, it's like a faucet in the

7:39

sky gets turned off, and we usually

7:41

have five to six months of dry, dry,

7:43

very dry days. The

7:45

humidity this time of the year is so low

7:48

during the day that since moving here,

7:50

I have to carry lubricating eyedrops because

7:52

for about four months, I feel like my eyeballs

7:54

are going to shrivel up and fall off of my

7:56

face. So

7:58

we went to bed Wednesday, December 25th

8:01

with coffee at 12% moisture content,

8:03

planning on giving the coffee one more day

8:05

of sun and picking it up on Thursday and

8:08

to put it away in storage. Then

8:11

a rainstorm on December 26th

8:13

happened, and it was a huge

8:15

surprise and completely uncharacteristic

8:18

of the season. The

8:20

drying parchment was completely exposed

8:22

to the rain, and by the time we got to the patios

8:24

the next morning, you could see where the rain had

8:26

not just soaked the parchment, but

8:28

had also created small rivers through the

8:30

coffee. The patios

8:32

are arranged in three tiers and in a far

8:34

section of the second tier, there was enough

8:37

water that coffee was swept up and

8:39

carried over the edge to a lower tier,

8:41

A literal wave of coffee parchment

8:43

crashing down. Due

8:46

to the cool weather. Fortunately,

8:48

this harvest had been slow to start, so

8:50

the patios were not as full as they had been

8:52

in other years. However, there

8:55

was still a significant amount of coffee on the patios

8:57

that was very nearly dry and ready

8:59

to be bagged and put in storage, and

9:02

now we had to start all over again.

9:05

The morning of December 26th, Nick and I stood

9:08

above the patios in awe of the situation.

9:10

The rain had blended lots together, pushed

9:13

coffees from one side of the patio to the other,

9:15

and created a soggy mess that we needed

9:17

to deal with. Unfortunately,

9:20

that rain event was not the only challenge

9:23

the next few days. So December

9:25

26th, the 27th and the 28th were

9:28

dry, but still overcast with barely

9:30

a few hours when the sun broke through the clouds.

9:33

Not enough heat and warmth to make up for

9:35

that downpour, so we couldn't back

9:37

up the lots and get them into storage yet for

9:40

several days we made no drying progress.

9:43

And then on Sunday, December 29th,

9:46

we had a second rain episode that lasted

9:48

much longer and further pushed back drying

9:50

progress. This

9:53

farm has at least two guys that have been working

9:55

in this patio for the last 30 years,

9:57

and they told me that they had never experienced

9:59

a December like this. Nick

10:02

and I were better prepared for the second rain

10:05

and managed to pile up the coffee and cover it with

10:07

plastic tarps to avoid the worst of the downpour.

10:10

There was so much rain that the water ran

10:12

along the bottom and we were not able to protect

10:14

all of the coffee. Usually

10:17

I can get coffee off the patio in 10

10:19

days, but we had five lots that

10:21

were 21 days in and still

10:24

not dry. I

10:26

shared this all in real time during our biweekly

10:28

discord sessions, and many of you couldn't

10:30

understand how we had been so caught

10:32

off guard because rain during the harvest is

10:35

quite common around the world. When

10:38

we lived in Columbia, rain during the coffee harvest

10:40

was normal. In Columbia, coffee

10:43

is dried with rain in mind. That

10:45

is why you see greenhouses retractable

10:47

rooftops, and mechanical drying. but

10:49

December in Antigua has been historically

10:51

dry for so long that in

10:54

this mill there are no mechanical dryers,

10:56

no coverings, no greenhouses

10:58

or poly tunnels. No plan

11:01

B. Even the smallest

11:03

farmer in Columbia who dries their coffee

11:05

on the roof of their house because the coffee growing

11:07

areas are so mountainous that there is precious

11:10

little flat space. Even they

11:12

have a second roof on wheels that can

11:14

roll out to catch the sun and can quickly

11:16

roll back in when it starts to rain. During

11:20

our years living and processing coffee in Columbia,

11:22

it always rained. So there are structures and

11:24

plans for drying coffee during a rainy period.

11:27

In Antigua rain in December is so rare.

11:30

Our only option was to run

11:32

to the patios at the first sign of gray clouds.

11:35

Frantically. Push coffee into as small

11:37

a pile as possible. Cover it

11:39

with plastic tarps and pray. Throughout

11:42

the rest of the harvest, there were a few more rain

11:44

episodes and even more threats, but

11:47

none that dumped as much water. As a first

11:49

two in December, it was an

11:51

ominous start to a wacky year

11:53

with record low coffee cherry yields, and

11:55

record high market prices despite

11:58

the difficult start. Once we were able to

12:00

get the finished batches, milled, roasted, and

12:02

ready to taste, we were very pleased with

12:04

the results. We

12:06

made a few changes from the previous harvest

12:09

that improved the quality of the copy. For

12:11

example, the 20 23

12:13

20 24 harvest was a blend of

12:15

three farms Riata.

12:19

At the end of last harvest, we identified

12:21

that we preferred the profile from Lata.

12:24

And this current 20 24, 20

12:26

25 coffee harvest we have processed

12:28

only from the single farm Lata. This

12:31

gave us more control over the profile. In

12:34

total, we have processed approximately 83

12:37

bags of green coffee this year. A slight

12:39

increase from last year's, 70 bags. Once

12:43

the main production of Wash coffee was safely in

12:45

the warehouse, I could turn my attention

12:47

back to naturals. I

12:49

also felt it would be helpful to talk about this

12:51

now because I have noticed a resurgence

12:53

of this method in the specialty sector, especially

12:56

since the trendier methods like anaerobics

12:58

and carbonic maceration or thermo shock

13:01

are usually done on whole cherries. It's

13:03

the cutting edge of processing, but relies

13:06

on the traditional foundation of dry process.

13:09

So let's talk about it. Since

13:12

these coffees are getting the most attention and

13:14

winning competitions, a lot of producers

13:16

of traditional wash coffees are either

13:18

staring down the barrel of executing

13:20

their first whole cherry fermentations, or

13:23

more likely staring down at the disappointing

13:25

results from their whole cherry trials.

13:28

If you're a producer who is looking to improve your naturals,

13:31

I hope to provide some insight into how to

13:33

make these coffees with less mystery and difficulty.

13:37

And if you're a consumer, my goal in today's

13:39

episode is to give you a framework for how to think

13:41

about naturals that I hope serves you

13:43

both. If you love drinking this type of coffee

13:46

or if it's something that you have previously avoided

13:48

on a menu, if you're a newer

13:50

consumer of specialty coffee, you'll

13:52

notice that naturals are popping up in specialty

13:54

menus all over the place. During

13:57

our live office hours discussions, I get to hear

13:59

from producers and roasters on a regular basis.

14:02

In a previous conversation, a roaster in the UK

14:04

shared that their specialty shop previously

14:06

focused exclusively on washed, but

14:09

in the last few years has really shifted their

14:11

buying practices and now offers more naturals

14:13

than wash coffees. So

14:15

you might not be aware that in previous decades,

14:18

many specialty roasters have refused to

14:20

buy naturals at all, focusing

14:22

their entire offering on wash coffees. But

14:25

like all fashions, everything old is

14:27

new again, and the pendulum is swinging

14:29

towards some specialty roasters, shifting

14:31

their offerings to include a higher percentage

14:33

of natural coffees. My

14:36

feelings on the shift are neutral. The

14:38

part that concerns me is that to satisfy

14:41

the shift, instead of buying more from producers

14:43

who traditionally make dry processed coffees,

14:46

buyers are looking to producers who traditionally

14:48

make washed coffees and asking them

14:50

to make the shift to dry processed coffees.

14:54

The pressure exerted on producers to switch

14:56

their processing isn't just a vague

14:58

zeitgeist. Energy from social media or

15:00

competition results. The

15:02

feeling of missing out on sales opportunities

15:04

if you don't have a natural on your menu, is

15:07

not easily ignored by avoiding

15:09

Instagram. No. In

15:11

many cases, the request is

15:13

stepping out of the digital world, knocking

15:15

on the front gate of the farms and demanding

15:18

attention. It

15:20

happened in our own cupping lab a few weeks ago.

15:23

We set out all of the lots from the current harvest.

15:25

The table had 18 different coffees representing

15:28

different farms, different varieties

15:30

and inoculation styles. The

15:32

cupping went well. There were positive comments

15:35

about the balance, acidity and sweetness of the

15:37

coffees. We talked about the different

15:39

characteristics of the farms, different ages,

15:41

varieties, and climate conditions, and

15:44

how each inoculation style provided a

15:46

different opportunity to highlight a certain aspect

15:48

of the coffee, like the fruitiness, acidity,

15:50

or texture of the cup. Overall,

15:53

I felt like it was a diverse experience and

15:55

that the 18 coffees showed range

15:58

and yet. One of the buyers

16:00

said that he would like to taste the natural and

16:02

that it would be nice if there was one on the table

16:05

and that maybe next year there should be. Not

16:08

everybody noticed the comment, but for me

16:10

it was like hearing a record scratch the

16:14

owners took the information in and considered

16:16

it in case you were new

16:18

here. I want to remind you that Nick and I do not

16:20

own anything. We work and live

16:22

on this farm. We have a small percentage

16:24

of coffees that we are responsible for, but

16:27

the mill produces several containers a year,

16:29

each harvest. The owners

16:31

were not disturbed by the comet. It's a

16:33

pretty common refrain from visitors. But

16:36

to me it felt like the equivalent of going into

16:38

a Chinese restaurant having a nice meal,

16:40

and at the end, letting the staff know that

16:42

perhaps they should consider adding sushi to

16:44

the menu, that you would be more interested

16:46

in returning and patronizing them if they offered

16:49

sushi. Can you

16:51

imagine telling the chef

16:53

that they should be making you something else? We

16:56

know not to go to Italian restaurants and

16:58

ask for chicken tiki masala, and

17:00

yet the previous scenario plays out in cupping

17:03

rooms all over Latin America. And

17:06

the part that really gets under my skin, it's

17:09

that it's offered as a helpful comment, something

17:11

producers should receive openly and gratefully

17:14

and seriously consider. Listen,

17:17

I don't wanna be too mean about this, because

17:19

of course it's said with good intentions,

17:22

but intentions are not all that matter.

17:24

Impact matters too, and

17:26

a well-intentioned comment in the wrong

17:28

context should be examined. Imagine

17:32

the burning in my cheeks from forcing a smile

17:34

through the rest of that cupping. I

17:37

didn't say anything to the buyer at the time. It

17:39

was mixed company, and besides, I

17:41

have this little corner of the internet with you where

17:43

we can process this together in a less reactive

17:46

way. I also want to mention

17:48

this for any other producers who are listening

17:50

and have had similar experiences and

17:52

who didn't feel grateful for the comment. Who

17:54

felt that? Hold on. Maybe

17:56

that's kind of weird or kind of rude,

17:59

but, oh well, I'll just drop it. I

18:01

think it's pretty rude and I don't think we should

18:03

normalize buyers coming to coffee farms and

18:05

requesting different processes. There

18:08

was an extra layer to my irritation

18:10

with this particular comment During this

18:12

particular cupping, I

18:15

was extra annoyed because I was already planning

18:17

some natural batches the following week. A

18:19

very petty part of myself didn't want him

18:22

to take the credit for the suggestion when

18:24

it was already in the works or

18:26

that it was a good idea to keep doing this

18:28

in future cupping rooms. I've

18:31

personally avoided the task of making naturals

18:33

The previous two harvests, really

18:35

the last five because I also didn't make any

18:37

when we lived in Columbia either. But

18:40

this year I felt I could no longer put off

18:42

the inevitable. I decided

18:44

to do whole cherry trials, not because

18:46

this one particular buyer asked for it, and

18:49

so we could have something interesting for him next year,

18:51

but because I know that the same scenario

18:53

is playing out in cupping rooms far and

18:55

wide For the past 10

18:57

years of processing, when clients ask

18:59

me to Ferme Naturals, I've tried to

19:01

steer them away because in my experience, we

19:04

can achieve a lot of the same goals of differentiated

19:06

coffee in much easier ways by

19:08

tweaking their current wash process. If

19:11

you're familiar with even a handful of the previous

19:13

68 episodes of this podcast, you will

19:15

notice the conspicuous absence of naturals.

19:19

For the last 10 years, I have been a washed

19:21

coffee advocate through and through. The

19:24

research I talk about, the advice I

19:26

give, the type of coffee I make and

19:28

consume is overwhelmingly unapologetically

19:32

wet, processed, washed coffee. Up

19:35

until this point, I'm embarrassed to admit

19:37

my professional processing strategy for

19:39

dry processed naturals has been

19:42

abstinence. If I ignore

19:44

something, can I will it to stop existing?

19:47

If I don't do the dry process and I don't help

19:49

anyone else do dry process, can it just

19:51

go away? Per

19:53

usual, abstinence only is a terrible

19:56

strategy and dry process

19:58

has some excellent qualities, so

20:01

it was time to dip my toes. All

20:04

this negativity around dry process

20:06

makes it sound like I do not like to drink

20:08

dry process, natural coffee. You

20:11

might think I hate naturals, and

20:13

you'd be partially right. If

20:15

I'm at a cafe, I'm not allowed to know anything

20:18

about the coffee except for the processing style.

20:21

When given a choice of what to drink, I will always,

20:23

always pick to wash coffee over a dry

20:25

process natural. However,

20:28

if the choice is between an Ethiopian natural

20:30

or any Central American wash coffee,

20:33

then the choice flips. It's

20:35

not that I don't like the processing method,

20:38

it's that I usually don't like them from Latin countries.

20:41

Also, liking to drink something is different

20:43

from wanting to make that thing. For example,

20:45

honeys. I have liked many honeys

20:47

in the past, but from a processing point of

20:49

view, they're annoying and difficult

20:52

and I don't wanna spend my time that way. From

20:54

a production point of view, honey process is

20:56

painful to scale and reproduce. You

20:58

can stain and rust equipment. The extra

21:01

mucilage attracts way more flies, making it

21:03

less hygienic. They take longer to dry

21:05

than wash coffees and are more susceptible to

21:07

mold and off flavors. And

21:09

the payoff in the cup can be really similar

21:11

to a washed coffee, so the extra effort

21:14

and headache often feels wasted. I

21:17

may lose some of you with the statement, but I have

21:19

yet to find a Central American dry

21:21

process, natural that I look forward to

21:23

drinking. I've tried

21:25

some that I think are okay, many

21:27

that are fine. Several that don't

21:29

offend me, but to date, not

21:32

a single one has thrilled me. This

21:35

is uncomfortable for me to admit to you as

21:38

a processing consultant. I have tried to

21:40

keep my personal feelings out of it and remain

21:42

neutral to the method and focus on best

21:44

practices, but

21:46

today I'm feeling emboldened, perhaps

21:48

by planetary alignments to finally

21:51

publicly share that I do not like

21:53

Latin natural coffees. What

21:55

is always missing for me in the Latin dry

21:57

process is a certain finesse and elegance

22:00

that is so easily achieved with a wash process.

22:04

Most people who love dry process love

22:06

the fruity component. However,

22:08

living near coffee farms, I am constantly

22:10

smelling the aroma of decomposing coffee

22:12

cherries, and that is what most

22:15

Latin naturals smell and taste like to me, like

22:17

the cherry skin decomposing on the farm.

22:20

And there is no morality here. There is no right

22:22

or wrong. Most, if not all of

22:24

our preferences are learned or taught or

22:27

absorbed through our culture. Several

22:30

years ago, before we lived here, I

22:32

was tagging along with some coffee buyers

22:34

from New York to a large coffee farm near Antigua.

22:37

The buyers usually spend January and February

22:39

fighting the oppressive cold of North American

22:42

winters their only respite

22:44

against this attack is the annual trip

22:46

to this particular coffee farm. I

22:49

found myself in the same car with these buyers

22:51

windows rolled down enjoying the warm

22:53

Antigua air. We were a few

22:55

kilometers away from the farm, but as we got

22:57

closer, the warm breeze suddenly brought

22:59

the aroma of coffee cherry pulp. To

23:02

me, the aroma was decomposition,

23:04

sharp acidity, and something very foul.

23:08

If you know about compost, you know that

23:10

if it's balanced, it shouldn't be disgusting,

23:12

and it should especially not smell disgusting

23:14

from several kilometers away. The

23:17

fact that we could smell it from so far away

23:19

to me signaled an unhealthy decomposition

23:22

and the rotting aroma was really unpleasant.

23:25

While I was busy rolling my window and taking

23:27

shallow breaths to avoid gagging, this

23:30

buyer from New York stuck his head out the window

23:32

like a dog in breathed in deep yogic

23:35

diaphragmatic breaths. While

23:37

my nervous system tensed up with the anxiety

23:39

of imagining improper balance of nitrogen

23:41

and carbon rich materials leading

23:43

to insufficient airflow and anaerobic conditions,

23:46

which produce foul smelling gases that resemble

23:48

sewage systems. His nervous

23:50

system relaxed into the piece one feels

23:53

on vacation, swinging on a hammock,

23:55

sipping an icy cocktail, and listening

23:57

to the soft sounds of crashing waves.

24:01

Give me a coffee that tastes like decomposing

24:03

cherry and I will politely sip it and

24:05

use all of my energy to avoid throwing up

24:07

in my mouth and relax my facial

24:09

features into something that will not be too offensive.

24:12

Give this dude a coffee that tastes like decomposing

24:15

cherry he is transported to

24:17

a beach vacation. This

24:20

experience also reminded me of one of my professors

24:22

at uc, Davis. Dr. Hildegard

24:25

Haman taught sensory science and

24:27

when we were learning to identify defects in wine,

24:29

she confessed that she had a positive memory

24:31

of skunks from her childhood. In South Africa,

24:35

the primary aroma compounds in skunk

24:37

spray are sulfur containing chemicals called

24:39

thiols, specifically butyl

24:42

more capin, along with other related compounds such

24:44

as methyl mar captains. Wines

24:46

made from Sauvignon Blanc. Grapes have a high

24:48

percentage of both thiols and mercaptans,

24:51

and so while most who find a skunky aroma

24:53

in their wine would reject it. My

24:56

sensory professor feels a surge of

24:58

pleasure and nostalgia when she smells almost

25:00

any Marlboro Sauvignon Blanc. The

25:03

same mercaptans can be interpreted in

25:05

different ways too. For example,

25:07

in the case of three Mer Capto Heyl acetate,

25:10

some describe the aroma as passion

25:12

fruit and others as boxwood, which

25:15

is a really nice way to say animal urine.

25:19

It's a matter of degrees and thresholds.

25:21

If you smell tropical passion fruit, and

25:23

someone else smells putrid, animal urine,

25:26

you are likely smelling the same thing and you are

25:28

both correct. In the case

25:30

of the naturals, I smelled sewage and

25:32

he smelled happiness. Before

25:34

we keep going, I wanna take a moment to

25:36

say that if you are a Latin producer who makes

25:39

top dollar for your naturals. I salute

25:41

you. If you are making these naturals

25:43

and they are selling well, keep on keeping

25:46

on. Every coffee is beautiful

25:48

to someone. Every coffee has a home.

25:51

My motto with my clients has always been,

25:53

if it's not broken, don't fix it. I'm

25:56

not advocating that you should not make these coffees,

25:59

but I am advocating for intention.

26:02

I think if you are going to make these coffees,

26:04

you should do it on purpose. And

26:07

if you don't want to make a natural that tastes

26:09

like decomposing cherry and reminds some people

26:11

of sewage, you don't have to. If

26:14

your naturals are inconsistent, hard

26:16

to scale or just underwhelming,

26:19

there might be something in the rest of this episode to

26:21

help you. There are three main

26:23

pillars that I think can significantly improve

26:25

the quality of Latin Naturals. They

26:28

are sorting selection of microbes

26:30

and shade. Sorting and

26:32

microbes are the two levers that you can

26:34

push and pull to clean up and improve.

26:37

The consistency and quality and

26:39

shade is key to lowering

26:41

the drying temperature. Since naturals are

26:43

more susceptible to heat damage, which

26:45

can shorten their shelf life. You

26:48

may be wondering why you waited 30 minutes

26:50

to hear the most basic of advice. Well,

26:53

it's because I get to taste a lot of Latin naturals

26:56

and I get to visit so many mills

26:58

across Latin America where these basic

27:00

steps are not consistently being

27:02

applied. Before

27:05

we talk about how I push and pull these three levers

27:07

and give you a protocol, I want

27:09

to dig in a little bit more into why the dry

27:11

process is so hard to achieve in certain

27:14

parts of the world. Why it's not something

27:16

that you can copy from Ethiopia and paste

27:18

in Columbia or Guatemala. As

27:21

I've already said, the majority of my consulting work

27:23

is in Central and South America, where wash

27:25

coffees are the dominant process. In

27:28

contrast to the Americas in Ethiopia,

27:31

the original home of coffee, the dominant

27:33

process was dry process. It's

27:36

genius in its simplicity. You

27:38

don't need electricity, you don't need water,

27:41

you don't need a pulper or fermentation

27:43

tanks or washing channels, essentially,

27:45

no equipment required except perhaps

27:48

raised beds. It is the ultimate

27:50

and low intervention processing, but

27:53

usually has the most impact on flavor.

27:55

This is the first paradox, the first paradox

27:58

of naturals, less human intervention,

28:01

but higher flavor payoff. The

28:04

second paradox of naturals is that

28:06

it's a simpler process that is actually

28:08

harder to achieve. Just

28:10

because something is simple doesn't mean

28:12

it's easy. Wash coffee

28:14

evolved after naturals because it took time

28:16

to develop the equipment, the engineering

28:18

and workflow that allows a wash process

28:21

to occur. In that way, a

28:23

wash process can be viewed as an improvement

28:25

over dry process because it's the next

28:28

evolution of processing. The thing

28:30

that came after the solve for a

28:32

lot of the issues posed by the inconsistencies

28:34

of dry process. The wet

28:36

method revolutionized coffee processing.

28:39

The way the Ford Model T car revolutionized

28:41

transportation compared to the horse and

28:43

buggy. There are a lot of

28:45

parallels between Ford's assembly line

28:48

and the washing channels that revolutionized coffee

28:50

processing. The wet process

28:52

focused on uniformity, efficiency,

28:54

and scalability. It

28:56

also improved quality because by pulping

28:59

the coffee, there are more opportunities to

29:01

sort out defects by exposing the parchment

29:03

and also to prevent future defects by

29:05

reducing total processing time. So

29:08

where does that leave the dry process? Dry

29:11

process is still a good fit when you have a deep

29:13

knowledge of the coffee varieties and how they ripen.

29:17

It's also a good fit when the climate is stable

29:19

and when there's a long history of both growing

29:21

a crop and consuming the beverage. Like

29:23

in Ethiopia, where the population

29:25

that processes the coffee is also drinking

29:27

it, incorporating it into their culture

29:29

with rituals. I think this

29:31

is another thing that we take for granted when we

29:33

try to compare coffee and wine. Most

29:36

of the wine grapes are still grown close to where

29:38

they originated in Europe. And the people

29:40

have had thousands of years of experience

29:43

with both how to grow the vines and how to

29:45

process them and know their best expressions.

29:48

Coffee in contrast, is both a colonial

29:50

tool and a pioneer crop. It

29:52

was taken to places where there was no history

29:54

or culture of growing processing or drinking

29:57

this beverage because it didn't originate

29:59

In most places, it grows Today, there is

30:01

a very limited cultural context

30:03

outside of colonial structures. Living

30:07

in a tourist destination like Antigua,

30:09

I get exposed to a lot of tourists.

30:12

There's a weird connection that many tourists make

30:14

when they visit Antia. Many

30:16

love drinking Guatemalan coffee, and they feel

30:18

like they're getting an authentic experience

30:20

by drinking Guatemalan coffee in a Guatemalan

30:23

coffee shop, like they're somehow getting

30:25

closer to the product. Except

30:27

that Antigua coffee shops are not authentic

30:30

to Guatemalan culture. They're copies

30:32

of American culture for tourists. When

30:35

I walk into several of the coffee shops in Antia, I

30:37

feel like I could be in San Diego or Oakland,

30:40

California, which is to say they're

30:42

very nice and have very few local

30:44

Guatemalan patrons. This

30:47

is in contrast to cacao. Cacao

30:49

is both grown in Guatemala and drunk

30:51

by the indigenous mind populations. You

30:53

can come to Guatemala today and still experience

30:56

a cacao ceremony with Mayan communities.

30:59

This is an example of traveling to the source

31:01

and having a deeper experience with a product.

31:04

Like going to France to drink wine or Japan

31:06

to drink green tea, but

31:08

coffee doesn't have the same connection here. There

31:11

is nothing historically authentic about the

31:13

coffee shops here. It's the foreigner's

31:15

culture package back to foreigners

31:17

as a

31:17

Facsimile.

31:18

of local culture like an or

31:20

Boris eating its tail. But

31:23

let's get back to the idea that coffee has been taken

31:25

to places where there is no history or culture

31:27

of growing processing or drinking this beverage.

31:30

This is pretty straightforward and perhaps

31:32

benign, but I feel like there's been

31:35

a second purpose to further separate the

31:37

coffee plant from the people who have the longest

31:39

history and knowledge of growing it. It's

31:42

not a coincidence that 70% of the world's

31:44

cacao is grown in Africa, but

31:46

originates in Columbia, and that coffee

31:48

has flip flopped originally in Ethiopia,

31:51

but mostly grown in Brazil. I

31:54

don't believe it's a climate thing. Most

31:56

of our coffee could still come from where it originated,

31:58

and cacao could still come from where it originates.

32:01

But then the people who have a history with it

32:03

would be in charge instead of the colonial

32:05

powers, and it wouldn't be compatible with modern

32:07

capitalist structures. When

32:10

looking to expand an empire by taking coffee

32:12

to a new land, there are many advantages

32:15

in relying on the wash process. It

32:17

makes sense that as coffee spread to new countries

32:19

where coffee is not traditionally grown, the

32:22

tradition of how to process it was also left

32:24

behind, as well as the original microbes,

32:26

which we talked about in the terroir episodes

32:29

of this podcast. As a result,

32:31

coffee has a very transactional relationship

32:34

in many Latin countries. When

32:36

we romanticize coffee growers like

32:38

our wine growers, we pass over

32:40

the fact that they are not standing on the shoulders

32:43

of giants of thousands of years of

32:45

information and experience. We pass

32:47

over the fact that the driving force and coffee

32:49

production has been cheap labor, exploitation

32:52

of land, and producing volume, not

32:54

quality. We must not

32:57

superimpose the romantic image of a

32:59

grape grower in the French countryside,

33:01

pressing grapes in his cellar, bottling

33:03

his wine, and placing it on the table for his family

33:05

to drink with the small

33:07

coffee grower in El Salvador, who most

33:09

likely has never tasted the coffee she grows.

33:13

Dear patient, listener, these are,

33:15

but some of my reservations about naturals

33:17

in Latin countries, some, but not

33:20

all. This is not even an

33:22

exhaustive list of my concerns. There

33:24

may have to be a second episode to further

33:26

dissect everything that I can't fit into this

33:29

one. But for your sake, let's see

33:31

if I can land this plane. So

33:33

with all those reservations about naturals

33:35

and Latin countries. On Saturday, March

33:37

1st, I found myself having a bit

33:39

of an existential crisis as Nick

33:41

and I were floating cherries and filling barrels

33:43

to start our first natural trials. This harvest,

33:47

I felt a little like I had caved to the market

33:49

pressures of buyers asking for naturals,

33:51

and I needed to keep reminding myself

33:53

that I was doing this not for myself, but

33:55

to be able to provide support for the producers

33:58

who do feel pressure, who do think

34:00

that this is the only way to stand out, even

34:03

though I don't want to make naturals for myself.

34:05

I do think it would be helpful to have some firsthand

34:08

experience so that I can advise my clients when

34:10

they're in a similar situation. I

34:12

also want to have this tool in my toolbox

34:15

for the situations where water availability

34:17

is limited and to generally prepare

34:19

myself for coffee production in a post-apocalyptic

34:22

water war future. Also,

34:24

another topic that could be in the second

34:26

naturals episode. Anyway.

34:29

The entire harvest. I knew this future was coming,

34:32

but due to the cool season that pushed back the

34:34

start of harvest and the rains that made

34:36

drying extra slow, there was not enough

34:38

room on the patio to start the trials for months.

34:41

The season was quickly coming to a close. The

34:44

patios were still full, and the yeast and bacteria

34:46

were languishing in my fridge. Also,

34:49

the cool, humid and overcast weather

34:51

did not inspire the desire to process

34:53

naturals, which can so easily develop

34:55

mold. The delay

34:57

was so significant. I thought maybe the season

34:59

would end without getting to do these trials at

35:02

all. I was both worried

35:04

I wouldn't get around to it and hopeful

35:06

that I could procrastinate another year, no

35:08

such luck. Finally at the

35:10

end of February, an extended dry period

35:12

came allowing us to get our main production

35:15

in the warehouse, which cleared enough space

35:17

in the patio to be ready to process naturals.

35:21

So back to Saturday morning, March 1st,

35:23

we received 700 pounds of coffee cherries.

35:27

I wanted to try a few different combinations

35:29

of sacro, myis yeast, nons,

35:31

sacro, myis yeast like pichia and

35:33

lactobacillus bacteria. However,

35:36

the first hurdle was floating the cherries

35:39

in our regular wet process, the cherries

35:41

are directly dumped into a hopper that carries

35:43

them to a siphon that removes a less dense,

35:45

lower quality floaters from the denser

35:48

higher quality fruit, and takes them

35:50

directly to the pulper. All of this

35:52

works by gravity. To

35:54

be able to float our cherry and avoid the pulper,

35:56

we would have to go against gravity and

35:58

use double the labor and take twice as long

36:01

to use the floating step, and then to dig

36:03

out and catch the cherries before they went to

36:05

the pulper. This

36:07

was gonna be really difficult, so we ended

36:09

up filling an old water tank with water

36:12

and manually floating the cherries and scooping

36:14

them out. Again. It still took twice

36:16

as many people, but we avoided the step of

36:18

having to carry the 700 pounds twice

36:20

up and down a few flights of stairs. Let's

36:23

go back to the first and most important lever

36:25

for improving Latin Naturals. This

36:27

selection is key and is usually

36:29

missing. In parts of Africa

36:32

where I have worked, including Kenya, Burundi, and

36:34

Rwanda, there have been so many people

36:36

picking, sorting, moving, and raking coffee.

36:39

It was astonishing to me when I first

36:41

visited those wet mills. African

36:43

mills make Latin mills look like abandoned

36:46

ghost towns. There is such a stark

36:48

difference in labor. It feels like a different industry

36:50

altogether. Dry process

36:53

naturals are notoriously difficult because

36:55

they're not uniform. This lack

36:57

of uniformity makes them difficult to roast,

36:59

creating cup to cup variability, and generally

37:01

shorter shelf life when compared to the

37:03

same coffee process in a wet method.

37:06

The way to counteract this is to pick only

37:09

red cherries. The solve

37:11

is to expend a lot of effort and labor upfront

37:14

to homogenize the cherries. This

37:16

is rarely done in Latin countries. The

37:19

lack of labor makes it impossible, but

37:21

also the lack of knowledge. In

37:23

my workshops, there are many producers who

37:25

process naturals but may have never tasted

37:28

a delicious Ethiopian natural themselves.

37:30

Not only are they unfamiliar with the traditional

37:32

flavor profile, so the target

37:35

of where they're trying to go, but usually

37:37

they are also unaware of the protocols in Ethiopia

37:39

that make these coffees such a success.

37:42

It is like expecting someone to be able to

37:44

recreate a croissant just by looking at

37:46

a picture of it. The flavor and

37:49

texture is not something that you can see

37:51

a picture of and replicate All

37:53

over Guatemala, there are bakers making crescent

37:56

shaped gummy bricks of dough that couldn't

37:58

be further from the flaky, airy, buttery

38:00

essence of a croissant if they tried. Once

38:03

again, my pedantic approach to language is

38:06

on full display. I wouldn't

38:08

be upset if they called these abominations

38:10

half moon bread or crescent pastries,

38:12

but they call them croissants. And because I

38:14

love this pastry so much, I keep falling

38:17

for it and thinking despite all previous disappointments,

38:19

maybe this time will be different. And

38:22

it's never different. It has not

38:24

been different to this point. But I will probably

38:27

still keep drawing. Anyway,

38:29

during class time, I share pictures from

38:31

my consulting trips to Africa. Most

38:34

producers are surprised to see the amount of people

38:36

working in a traditional wet mill and sorting

38:38

cherry. They can't believe how

38:40

red and uniform the cherries are before

38:42

they even get to the wet mill, before

38:45

they are floated and further

38:47

separated. In contrast,

38:49

most Latin naturals start their journey

38:52

more closely resembling Skittles

38:55

candy, taste the rainbow, various colors

38:57

of yellow, green, red, and purple.

39:00

So my best advice is to sort,

39:02

sort, sort. But

39:04

I know most people can't, even if

39:06

they wanted to. And so for this trial,

39:09

I could have made the extra effort to sort

39:11

to the level of Ethiopia or Kenya, but

39:14

since it wasn't realistic or practical, I

39:16

decided not to. In fact,

39:18

we didn't sort the cherry at all. And

39:21

remember, this is the end of the season. The

39:23

percentage of very ripe and overripe

39:25

cherry was at its peak, more

39:28

ripeness, brings more spoilage organisms,

39:30

higher risk of over fermentation defects.

39:33

The only selection I did was to remove

39:36

the floaters. So we received the cherries

39:38

exactly as they came in from the field

39:40

and only did this. Float

39:42

step because I wanted to see how

39:45

much my microbes could compensate for this

39:47

lack of sorting labor and against

39:49

the extra challenge of spoilage with late harvest

39:51

fruit. Remember, I'm not trying

39:53

to make the best naturals ever. I'm

39:55

not trying to create a competition winning

39:58

batch of coffee. I'm trying

40:00

to make the best natural I can with

40:02

the least amount of effort. It's

40:05

only very recently that I was made aware

40:07

of the Duchess Sixes culture. Essentially,

40:10

it's a cultural philosophy that gets

40:12

its name from the fact that tests and school

40:14

are graded out of 10 and that a six

40:16

is all you need to pass. So you

40:19

know, why bother putting in any more effort? If

40:21

you only need a six, why do more

40:24

so instead of being a top student, striving

40:26

for a nine outta 10 or a 10 outta

40:28

10 better to get a six. And

40:30

you know, have friends enjoy your life.

40:33

Be interesting anyway, I've

40:35

only recently been made aware of this cultural quirk,

40:37

and I am definitely obsessed.

40:41

But back to Saturday, after floating the

40:43

next step was to ferment with selected microbes.

40:47

Normally, the fermentation happens in ceramic

40:49

tanks in the mill. But to get those coffees

40:51

out there, use a washing channel. And because

40:54

we were doing whole cherries, it wouldn't work

40:56

because the fruit would be smashed and ruined.

40:58

So we would need to use plastic barrels. And

41:00

instead of fermenting in the mill, I decided to ferment

41:03

down in the patio to avoid moving the whole cherries

41:05

again. 'cause each time we needed

41:07

to move and manipulate the cherries from,

41:09

let's say, the truck to the weighing scale, from the scale

41:12

to the floating tank, from the floating tank to the fermentation

41:14

tank, and then the fermentation tank to the patio. Each

41:17

step each. Movement

41:19

was an opportunity to tear the delicate

41:21

skin and expose a misage, increasing

41:24

the chance of contamination and risk,

41:26

kind of ruining my whole experiment. So

41:29

after floating the lighter cherries. All

41:31

the fruit went down to the patio and

41:34

we separated into batches. So 100

41:36

pounds of cherry went directly onto the patio

41:38

to begin drying immediately. So that's

41:40

our control. The next a hundred

41:42

pounds was put in a barrel with water only.

41:45

So that was a fermentation with

41:47

the wild microbes that are coming

41:50

in from the farm. And

41:53

the next five barrels each had 100

41:55

pounds of cherries with different combinations of

41:57

yeast and bacteria. So. All

41:59

six barrels. The five with Sacro,

42:02

myis, sacro, Myis plus lactobacillus, a Pichia

42:04

plus lactobacillus, uh, Pia by itself.

42:06

All of these different combinations plus

42:09

the wild, coffee with water.

42:12

All of those were left for 72 hours

42:14

to ferment. And then we,

42:16

after 72 hours, we drained the water

42:18

off and place them on the patio to dry.

42:21

So notice I am also not using

42:24

raised beds and raised beds are great

42:26

if you already have them, but I don't

42:28

think that they should be a barrier to making good naturals.

42:31

The advantage of raised beds is that they

42:33

can help prevent mold, which is a big problem

42:35

in our humid countries, by getting

42:38

the cherries off of the ground and as well

42:40

as providing greater airflow. 'cause you have airflow

42:42

on top and airflow on the bottom

42:44

versus the patio where you just are kind of, you

42:47

know, drying from one direction. the

42:49

second benefit of raised beds is

42:51

that by getting them off of the ground, you're

42:53

also lowering the drying temperature

42:55

because you're not getting that radiant heat from the

42:57

patio. So it's by

42:59

default, a more gentle way to dry. Coffee

43:03

beds are also more gentle because they

43:05

need to be raked by hand versus a patio

43:07

where most of the movement is accomplished by

43:09

stepping on or through the coffee

43:12

or in very large places, uh, basically

43:14

driving a truck or a tractor or a motorcycle

43:17

to mix and move the coffee. So

43:19

again, by default, Ray's, beds don't

43:21

allow the coffee to get beaten up so

43:23

much. There's nothing magical

43:26

about raised beds. It's just you

43:28

can't drive on them, step on

43:30

them if you have. This type of structure. But

43:33

I believe that you can do all of this

43:35

gentleness. I believe you can accomplish

43:37

that on a patio as well. I believe

43:39

that it's possible to be gentle and not

43:41

step on the coffee. It's possible to reduce

43:44

temperature with overhead shade, and

43:47

the last burden of contamination

43:49

can be taken care of by the. Previous

43:51

fermentation in the barrel because

43:53

the yeast and the bacteria that I use to inoculate

43:55

those barrels acts as a biocontrol

43:58

against the ambient mold that could be found

44:00

on the patio or brought in by the overripe

44:02

cherries. So.

44:05

Another key to this method is

44:07

that the cherries are submerged. In

44:09

many iterations, the cherries are

44:11

placed in dry plastic bags

44:14

to ferment. This is a fine method

44:16

and again, if it works for you, keep doing

44:18

it. This dryness usually

44:20

leads to higher temperatures, which can lead

44:22

to more intense aromas, so I completely

44:25

understand why it's a popular choice. The

44:27

reason I don't do it, and the reason I

44:29

don't recommend it is because it's difficult to

44:31

control and reproduce, and because you

44:33

can't monitor it since the bag is sealed

44:36

the whole time, you're essentially blind until

44:38

the end when you open the bag and

44:40

you know, maybe get a surprise with

44:43

my method of inoculation. Plus

44:45

submerged fruit, uh,

44:47

in a completely open and exposed tank.

44:49

I'm able to follow the pH, I can mix

44:52

the cherries to make sure that the fermentation

44:54

is homogenous. And the most important

44:56

part is that I'm smelling it and making sure that

44:58

the microbes are still healthy and

45:00

my coffee is not at risk for

45:02

any defects. So there,

45:05

there will be no surprises. I am, eyes

45:07

open the whole time monitoring

45:10

my coffee fermentations. Okay,

45:12

so what were the results? Well,

45:15

the results were that we were able to

45:17

dry the coffee in 15 days, Hull

45:19

it, which was a whole other challenge

45:22

because we didn't have the proper wholer and

45:24

we had to like MacGyver a setup with

45:26

a pulper, a pasta colander,

45:28

and a shop vac set to reverse

45:30

to be able to get the green seeds out

45:33

so that we could roast them and cup them. At

45:35

this point, only a handful of people

45:37

have tried them, but my intent

45:40

was to make a natural that didn't taste. Like

45:42

a natural to blur the lines of

45:44

processing and make the flavor story about

45:47

the microbes and not the equipment, not

45:49

the infrastructure. I

45:51

have worked to push wash process

45:53

closer to the boundaries of a dry, processed

45:56

coffee by filling out the body, by

45:58

making it, you know, heavy, a heavier texture,

46:00

more round and creamy. And

46:03

what I hadn't done before, the

46:05

experience that was missing for me was pushing

46:07

the boundaries of a dry process

46:09

closer to the profile of a washed

46:12

by making it clear and bright. So

46:15

in the end, I can tell you I have finally

46:18

made some Latin dry processed coffee

46:20

that I am looking forward to drinking. There's

46:23

more to share and digest, but I think

46:25

I will leave it here for today. I've

46:28

been sharing pictures and videos of this process,

46:30

both on Instagram, on

46:32

my newsletter, as well

46:34

as during live office hours. So

46:36

if this topic really interests you, come

46:38

join us there and be part of the conversation.

46:42

And I'm curious, are you gonna rush

46:44

out and try to find a natural process

46:46

in your local coffee shop? Will you think

46:48

of dry processed coffees differently now? I

46:51

wanna thank you for hanging out with

46:53

this episode because it's been a while since I

46:55

sat down to record my thoughts for this

46:57

podcast. but even though we haven't

47:00

been publishing new episodes during the last several

47:02

months, we have been regularly gathering

47:04

for the aforementioned discord

47:06

office hours and. I

47:09

just can't tell you how much I

47:11

enjoy them. What a great part of my week they are.

47:13

They're just these casual chats in case you're

47:15

new here. The office hours are casual

47:18

chats where I get to share, you know

47:20

what Nick and I are up to do harvest updates

47:22

and then mostly hear from you all

47:24

over the world to what you're

47:26

doing, what you're interested in. We

47:28

kind of, you know, workshop some

47:31

protocols. It's just a really fun, casual

47:33

space. So if you've been looking

47:36

for a way to get more involved into specialty

47:38

coffee or you just have all of these questions

47:40

or a place you wanna meet, some coffee nerds,

47:43

um, feel free to join us on Patreon.

47:45

It's $3 per month to connect with

47:47

other awesome listeners. And

47:49

like I mentioned earlier, your support will help me make

47:51

new episodes and keep them free from

47:53

sponsors and distractions. Thank

47:56

you for listening, and if you get value

47:58

out of our time together, please share with a friend

48:01

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48:03

Consider subscribing to my free and infrequent

48:05

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48:08

is L-U-X-I-A.

48:11

Great to be with you today. And remember, life's

48:13

too short to drink bad coffee.