0:07

You know both of my guests

0:09

today, I'm sure, by their bodies

0:11

of work. Actresses Christina Applegate and

0:13

Jamie Lynn Siggler have a combined

0:15

nearly 90 years in the industry.

0:18

Iconic roles on shows like Married

0:20

With Children and The Sopranos, turning

0:22

both Christina and Jamie Lynn into

0:24

household names. But today, the actresses

0:26

are also known for a very

0:29

different role. Christina and Jamie

0:31

Lynn are public faces of multiple

0:33

sclerosis. The harrowing disease that they

0:35

are both living with. Jamie Lynn

0:37

was diagnosed in 2003 at the

0:39

age of just 20 and Christina

0:41

at age 49, not even four

0:43

years ago. And while in two very

0:45

different places with MS, Christina

0:47

and Jamie Lynn have found

0:50

tremendous support in one another.

0:52

Jamie Lynn will tell you

0:54

Christina opened her up after

0:56

years of suffering quietly. She's

0:58

now done trying to appear to

1:00

be perfect. And Christina is leaning

1:02

on Jamie Lynn to share the

1:04

complexities of the disease. Only someone

1:06

else living with it would understand.

1:08

Their journey together is one of

1:11

pain and triumph, but there's also

1:13

so much beauty in the bond

1:15

that connects them. I hope you'll

1:17

listen to today's episode, not just

1:19

with empathy, but also with curiosity.

1:21

These are two women with a

1:23

truly unique perspective on life. I

1:25

found both Christina and Jamie Lynn

1:27

to be fascinating, insightful, and powerful, and

1:30

I hope you will too. I'm hot

1:32

to caught me. Welcome to my podcast,

1:34

Making Space. All

1:47

right guys, first of all, I just want

1:49

to tell you how happy I'm to be

1:52

sitting with you too. I kind of

1:54

feel like I know you. I've watched

1:56

some dear friends of mine interview you

1:58

and I love your friendship. There

2:00

are a million things that connect

2:02

you, but I don't even care

2:05

at this moment what those things

2:07

are because I love your friendship.

2:10

Well, you, Christina, describe like the

2:12

bond between you two. I mean,

2:14

our given bond initially was our

2:17

love of multiple sclerosis, or lack

2:19

thereof. But it was our friend

2:21

Lance hooking us up and saying

2:24

you guys just need to talk

2:26

and... Those talks weren't just about

2:29

MS. It was about everything about

2:31

motherhood and life and relationships and

2:33

fear and Everything and we would

2:36

just sit there for hours on

2:38

the phone and and I felt

2:41

really safe with Jamie I don't

2:43

feel very safe with many people

2:45

to talk about my true Like

2:48

inner inner stuff and be heard

2:50

and understood and not judged So

2:52

that's, you know, a big one.

2:55

And she's glorious and she keeps

2:57

me saying. Sometimes an illness shapes

3:00

you and sometimes it defines you.

3:02

Sometimes it's part of you and

3:04

sometimes it's all of you. Jamie,

3:07

when you think about MS, how

3:09

do you see it? Is it

3:12

part of you? Is it all

3:14

of you? Does it define you?

3:16

It's been all of those things

3:19

at different times. You know, I

3:21

think that it's been a journey

3:23

of... acceptance. Just a true learning

3:26

experience of acceptance, surrender to what

3:28

is, and acknowledging the lessons that

3:31

it brings, but also the gifts.

3:33

I think there are, you know,

3:35

I, Christina and I talk a

3:38

lot about time. You know, this

3:40

is... very much a new body

3:43

and a new life when you

3:45

live with something like MS. You

3:47

have to pivot in every which

3:50

way. Every way you imagine your

3:52

life to be every way that

3:55

it is depending on how your

3:57

body is reacting to it. And

3:59

I've had a lot of time

4:02

with this. And I've had a

4:04

lot of time in secret. I've

4:06

had a lot of time in

4:08

denial. I've had a lot of

4:11

time in fear. I've had a

4:13

lot of time in despair. And

4:16

what I've learned, you know, particularly

4:18

with Christina in the past couple

4:20

of years, is to sit with

4:22

it all. That it all

4:24

matters. That it's all valid.

4:26

It's all important. And much

4:28

like life, it ebbs and

4:30

flows, but I think that

4:33

MS doesn't define me, but it

4:35

has absolutely shaped me

4:37

into somebody that I

4:39

wouldn't want to know without

4:41

the experience. I mean,

4:44

of course, I would love to

4:46

not struggle in my body. I

4:48

would love to not have a

4:50

disability. I would love to be

4:52

able to participate in my life

4:55

the way I would choose to.

4:57

But the way that I look

4:59

at the world and the way

5:01

that I feel about people, I

5:03

don't know if it would be

5:05

the same without this. That's profound.

5:07

That is a huge statement to

5:09

say that. Christina, how do you

5:12

see that? Do you share

5:14

that? Congratulations, Jamie. I love

5:16

you for looking at this in

5:18

a positive note. I am defined

5:20

by it right now. You know, I'm

5:23

three and a half years in. I

5:25

have days where I can't even like

5:27

walk to the bathroom. So I am

5:29

defined by it. I'm angry at it

5:31

still. And there's a lot of us

5:33

out there who are newly diagnosed that

5:36

are not quite ready to accept

5:38

this reality. I keep thinking that

5:40

I'm just going to wake up

5:42

from this nightmare and it's just

5:45

going to be over. Wow. But the

5:47

reality is that it's not. And that's

5:49

what I'm trying to find a way

5:51

to. Except, but it's like really,

5:54

really difficult to. I went to the

5:56

dentist yesterday and it was a half

5:58

an hour appointment and it... was like

6:00

the most miserable like hour and a half

6:02

of my life just getting down my stairs

6:04

getting into the car getting into the parking

6:07

lot getting into the elevator going into the

6:09

office you know like the whole thing was

6:11

like not even an hour and a half

6:13

and by the time I got home I

6:15

was like I can't move anymore and that's

6:17

that's the stuff that makes me go that

6:20

I can't accept yet because I'm mad still.

6:22

Are many days Christina like that day that

6:24

you just every day that you just every

6:26

day that you just every day that you

6:28

just every day? She's every day. Are you

6:31

mad at God? Yeah. Mad at. Just mad

6:33

at the situation. I'm not mad at, you

6:35

know, my belief in God is not a

6:37

God that does things to you. It's a

6:39

universe and can't be mad at that. I'm

6:41

just mad because I want to do things.

6:44

I want to do normal things. I want

6:46

to get down the stairs, get my own

6:48

water. I want to do these things and

6:50

I want to do these things and I

6:52

want to get down the stairs, get my

6:55

own water. I want to do these things

6:57

and I want to do these things and

6:59

I want to do these things and I'm

7:01

getting worse things. disheartening but then there's like

7:03

this voice inside of me that is like

7:06

you've got to believe in a miracle you've

7:08

got to believe in another side of this

7:10

so I don't know let's just kind of

7:12

where I'm at right now which is not

7:14

very inspiring to anyone but it's I feel

7:16

like someone listening to me goes oh my

7:19

god I feel that way and I feel

7:21

like I'm not doing it right you know

7:23

there is no doing MS right no there's

7:25

not and I just want to say that

7:27

I think it's incredibly healthy.

7:30

I admire Christina for her ability

7:32

to just really feel these feelings that

7:34

are very raw and real. They

7:36

were feelings that I wouldn't allow myself

7:38

to feel or didn't think I

7:40

deserve to feel for way too long.

7:43

So I think in the beginning of

7:45

her journey with this for her

7:47

to be able to express herself like

7:49

this, I admire. I do. Well,

7:51

you know, Jamie, it's funny because you

7:54

started off by saying you were

7:56

living your life in secret and I

7:58

thought how scary that must have

8:00

been. Like. think I wonder if today's

8:02

the day somebody finds out or

8:04

if something happens how did you manage

8:07

that and what made you or

8:09

how did you finally let the world

8:11

know about it? You know I'm reliving

8:13

my life right now because I'm

8:15

writing my book and like all these

8:18

repressed memories are coming back of

8:20

just all of those times at different

8:22

you know jobs or situations where

8:24

it felt like I was on the

8:26

brink of being found out and

8:28

the amount of fear and anxiety and

8:31

stress that I lived with, that

8:33

I assumed I would live with for

8:35

the rest of my life. I

8:37

did not see any other way out.

8:39

I didn't see any other way. I

8:42

was I felt like I was

8:44

protecting myself. I felt I was protecting

8:46

my career. I was protecting my

8:48

reputation. I could not see anything positive

8:50

about my coming out with this.

8:52

But when my son was about two

8:55

years old, you know, the disease

8:57

had manifested in a way at that

8:59

point where I couldn't hide that

9:01

something was up. I was limping. I

9:03

didn't walk normal. People questioned and commented

9:06

it all the time. It was

9:08

getting exhausting. It was getting exhausting. And

9:10

everyone around me in my small

9:12

circle that knew just really was desperate

9:14

for me. Like they didn't understand

9:16

why I would keep the secret. You

9:19

know, I looked at my son

9:21

one night and I thought, I was

9:23

reading him some book and it

9:25

was just about, you know, how everybody's

9:27

different and how anything is possible

9:29

and what makes you unique, makes you

9:32

special. And I thought, I'm teaching him

9:34

to look at the world this

9:36

way. And at some point, he's gonna...

9:38

have an understanding of that mommy

9:40

has MS and this is why she

9:43

can't run with you or she

9:45

can't do certain things with you. You

9:47

know, we explained it in very

9:49

simple terms to him then and I

9:51

thought what am what am I

9:53

teaching my son about the world? Like

9:56

this is how you should view

9:58

it except for mom. It's not right

10:00

for mom. The world wouldn't accept mom.

10:02

I didn't know how to make

10:05

the change and believe it or not,

10:07

I got hypnotized one time and

10:09

when I came out of the hypnosis, I

10:11

don't know what this man said to

10:13

me. He's like the hypnotist of the

10:15

stars, so like gets everyone to quit

10:18

smoking. His name is Kerry Gaynor. Love

10:20

him. I walked out of his office

10:22

that day and I came home and I

10:24

said, okay. I'm ready to just let this

10:27

out now. I think

10:29

told me that I didn't deserve

10:31

to live that way and I

10:33

deserved more and I had such shame

10:35

around it and when you keep a

10:38

secret, you know, that's shame and

10:40

it's had built up for so

10:42

long and it was just chipping

10:44

away at every part of me

10:46

and he I think told me that

10:49

I didn't deserve to live that way

10:51

and I deserved more and I deserve

10:53

to see what would it be like

10:55

on the other side and so I

10:58

owe It all, or at least a

11:00

lot of it to him. So Jamie

11:02

had to keep a secret. Christina, someone

11:04

saw you. Is that how you

11:07

ended up telling people? It

11:09

was, no, I ended up, well, they

11:11

had to push me in a wheelchair

11:13

at work. It was undeniable that

11:15

something was wrong, but I hadn't

11:17

been diagnosed yet, but we knew

11:19

something was wrong, way wrong. I

11:21

mean, I put on 50 pounds,

11:23

I couldn't walk, my legs were

11:25

completely numb, I mean, but I

11:28

was being told that it was

11:30

something else for a really long

11:32

time until all the tests came

11:34

through. But there was this one

11:36

scene where we would have a grief group

11:38

in it. It was a really long walk

11:40

from the vans to the set, and I

11:42

couldn't do it. So they got me a

11:45

wheelchair, and someone took a picture

11:47

of me in the wheelchair, and I

11:49

didn't even know yet. I guess they had

11:51

said something like, oh yeah, her character gets in

11:53

a car accident, so that must be

11:55

why she's in a wheelchair. So I just kind of

11:57

let it be. And then I got the news and

11:59

I... I just had to say, this is

12:02

my deal. You're gonna notice that

12:04

I'm different. You're gonna, you know,

12:06

you're gonna notice in the show

12:08

that I look different. You're gonna

12:10

notice that I'm sitting in all

12:12

the scenes. And if you see

12:14

me out, you're gonna notice that

12:16

I can't walk without a cane.

12:18

Like, it would all happen so

12:20

quickly from my first symptoms, which

12:22

were very mild. There was some

12:24

tingling in my toes to five

12:26

months later from my knees down,

12:28

I can't feel and it's awful.

12:30

It's like a 24-7 thing now.

12:32

So there was just no, I

12:34

had to protect myself by saying,

12:36

hey, this is what's going on,

12:38

please just let me be. More

12:40

with Jamie Lynn Siggler and Christina

12:42

Applegate when we come back. What

12:57

is it like because this is not

12:59

parallel at all but a while ago

13:02

I had breast cancer and I remember

13:04

I was afraid to say it only

13:06

because I didn't want sad eyes I

13:08

didn't want someone looking at me like

13:10

I was a victim of something and

13:12

I liked people to look at me

13:14

in just a regular kind of way

13:16

and so I thought I'm going to

13:18

put this stuff in my... deep in

13:20

my pockets and I was on a

13:22

flight one day and I just had

13:24

all my surgeries and I was I've

13:26

sat on the plane and a man

13:28

next to me said hey what's your

13:30

name and I go I didn't want

13:33

to talk I felt horrible it was

13:35

a mistake to fly I shouldn't have

13:37

gone I shouldn't have gone I went

13:39

too early after all the surgeries and

13:41

stuff and I liked him for some

13:43

reason we started talking and he goes

13:45

so what's on your arm and I

13:47

said it's a compression sleeve he said

13:49

it's a compression I had a procedure,

13:51

you know, and I'm wearing. What was

13:53

the procedure? I was like, buddy. Oh,

13:55

geez. Anyway, I go, I go, okay.

13:57

I had to say something to you.

13:59

I said, I have breast. cancer, but

14:01

I hope when you get off the

14:04

plane, it's not the first thing that

14:06

you think of when you think of

14:08

me. And he goes, what is wrong

14:10

with you? He said, breast cancer is

14:12

part of you, like going to college

14:14

or working at NBC or whatever. He

14:16

said, I'm going to give you some

14:18

advice and you can fall asleep. And

14:20

I said, OK. And he said, I

14:22

never forgot these words. He said, don't

14:24

hog your journey. It's not just for

14:26

you. He said, think of how many

14:28

people you could have helped on the

14:30

plane ride home ride home. He said,

14:32

you can put your stuff deep in

14:34

your pocket and take it to your

14:37

grave, or you can help somebody, so

14:39

you can decide. And I sat on

14:41

that plane, I cried, I got off

14:43

the plane, and I went to work,

14:45

and I told some, I didn't even

14:47

tell my bosses, I just said I

14:49

was going to be gone, I had

14:51

to have a surgery, and I told

14:53

them, and I was free. And I

14:55

realized since then, just like you guys

14:57

do on this podcast every single day,

14:59

with people listening to you. people in

15:01

sort of your own way. But do

15:03

you think that sometimes, like I wonder

15:05

how you feel about the looks, and

15:08

Christine, are you okay? How are you

15:10

feeling today? You know, like, there's always

15:12

one conversation. It's like I was longing

15:14

for not having one conversation. Yeah, I

15:16

was going to say, and I'm so

15:18

glad you're okay, because, you know, I

15:20

had breast cancer as well in 2008,

15:22

and I did keep it to myself

15:24

for a while. mastectomies and then I

15:26

was at work and I was like

15:28

you guys like cannot hug me not

15:30

because I don't love you but you

15:32

like literally are hurting me so I

15:34

had to finally say something but so

15:36

I get that yeah I think that

15:39

I have a friend who went through

15:41

something really tragic recently and we went

15:43

to a party together which is for

15:45

me obviously like the worst thing but

15:47

it was for someone we really cared

15:49

about and she had just been through

15:51

this this thing and we get there

15:53

and she just comes over to me

15:55

and she goes how many more times

15:57

are people going to be like are

15:59

you Okay, and I said,

16:01

yeah, dude, I can't handle it.

16:04

I got to leave. She's like,

16:06

yeah, I think we need to

16:09

leave. I said, I can't, not

16:11

one more person. I

16:13

can't have one more person

16:16

come up and be like,

16:18

how are you? Are you

16:20

okay? And both of us

16:22

were like, no, we're not

16:24

okay. Do you understand that

16:26

part? Why are you asking

16:28

if we're okay? Don't ask

16:30

the question, man. Just say, I like

16:32

your shoes. Good, you're lucky I'm

16:35

wearing some. What about you because,

16:37

look, I mean, there are times

16:39

in your life where MS is

16:41

directly affecting every single thing, and

16:43

then there are times in your

16:45

life when you are reading your

16:47

kid a story, or you're at

16:49

the grocery store, or other things.

16:51

Your life has many more, you

16:53

know, moments. How do you deal with... The

16:56

fact that sometimes now when people

16:58

see you that's the only thing

17:00

they think about Yeah, I think that

17:02

was the hardest part That was

17:05

especially when I first came

17:07

out because you know you're used to

17:09

I was used to for 14 years

17:11

nobody knowing and then all of a

17:14

sudden You just feel like people

17:16

are looking at you differently My

17:18

fear was to be limited by

17:20

other people without them getting to

17:22

know what my own limits were

17:24

But what messy has done is it's changed

17:27

a lot of those moments for me. I

17:29

was at this thing here in Austin where

17:31

I live in December. It's called the Trail

17:33

of Lights and they redo all of Zilker

17:35

Park and make it this beautiful like miles

17:38

long trail. And I bring a big wagon

17:40

and sometimes I hop in it and my

17:42

husband will push me and then other times

17:44

I'll walk around when I'm feeling strong. And

17:46

the kids were all in a ride and

17:49

I was standing there by myself and this

17:51

woman walked up to me. And when I

17:53

saw her walk I could tell she probably

17:55

had MS or something and she said I

17:58

just want to tell you that I love

18:00

messy and what it means to

18:02

me. And I said, thank you.

18:04

And she said, this is the

18:06

first time I've ever been able

18:08

to walk this thing. And I'm

18:10

so grateful that I get to

18:12

share that with you. And now

18:15

I hope everybody recognizes me at

18:17

like at that because those types

18:19

of conversations I can't tell you

18:21

what they do for me. Those

18:23

things give me hope. Those things

18:25

make me keep pushing in the

18:27

moments where it feels like it's

18:29

hard. This has opened up an

18:31

entire community for the two of

18:33

us, and the support that we

18:36

receive from their words, from their

18:38

emails, from the way they reach

18:40

out, is, I think, even greater

18:42

than what we're doing. It's just,

18:44

it always feels better to know

18:46

you're not alone. I was alone

18:48

for so long in this. And,

18:50

you know, accepting the looks. and

18:52

accepting the glances and understanding that

18:54

the undertone is just love. Yeah.

18:57

You need the constant reminder of,

18:59

but let me say, there are

19:01

times to my own husband that

19:03

I have to say, I need

19:05

you to look at me like

19:07

a normal person, not an able

19:09

person. I will tell you when

19:11

I need help because he's always

19:13

trying of trying to be two

19:15

steps ahead of me of what

19:18

I'm going to need. Sometimes you

19:20

want to just feel like a

19:22

normal person walking through life and,

19:24

you know, knowing that you'll express

19:26

what you need in the feeling

19:28

too special or, you know, precious.

19:30

I like being, I like being,

19:32

I need to feel very precious.

19:34

Precious, precious, the crap out of

19:36

me, please. No, I feel the

19:39

same way. Like, sometimes everyone's like,

19:41

let me greet that cup for

19:43

you. And I'm like, I've got

19:45

it. I've got the cup. Yeah.

19:47

And then I drop the cup

19:49

and fall on the floor. And

19:51

then I cry into, no, I'm

19:53

just, I'm just. Just candid conversation.

19:55

I mean we have an episode

19:57

about eating disorders and body disorder

20:01

and we've got people that just write us

20:03

and be like, I don't have MS

20:05

or anything wrong with me, but I hate

20:07

a lot of people. And how are

20:09

your thoughts on that? It's like, we gotcha.

20:11

We gotcha, kid. Not hate, don't hate.

20:13

First of all, it's so easy to know

20:15

why this works. I mean, it's brilliant.

20:17

I love, first of all, I love the

20:20

title. I love the big M and

20:22

the big S. I love the whole thing.

20:24

I love how it came together. I

20:26

love how you guys just had a phone

20:28

conversation and you were like, is this

20:30

something more than a phone call? Like, is

20:32

that really the genesis? Is that how

20:34

it came to be? Jamie, do you and

20:36

I have already been talking when Jenna

20:39

Fisher came to hang out me during my

20:41

infusion? You and I had just been

20:43

talking. We had just sort of begun our

20:45

deep, long conversation routine. Yeah,

20:48

and so Jenna lives near my infusion

20:50

center and she's like, I'm gonna come sit

20:52

with you during your infusion, which is

20:54

six hours. So that's a commitment. That's a

20:56

friend commitment right there. And she's like,

20:58

and I'm like trying to make her laugh

21:00

because that's my way of deflecting all

21:02

the pain that I feel inside. And

21:05

she's like, you have to have a

21:07

podcast, man. You've got to like do that.

21:10

And I'm like, what would I talk

21:12

about? And then we started talking and it's

21:14

like, she kind of pushed it into

21:16

like, well, what something to talk about your

21:18

MS. And then I think I just

21:20

called you and was like, You did, wow.

21:22

Do you want to record this? Like,

21:24

should we just, okay. Up until then I've

21:26

never even heard a podcast. Okay. I

21:30

don't think I have. I

21:32

don't even think I even

21:34

listened to ours. I'm honestly,

21:36

I have such like attention

21:38

issues with like books and

21:40

listening to things that I

21:42

can't. Anyway, so that's kind

21:44

of how it started. And

21:46

we started just recording. We

21:48

met this beautiful woman, Allison

21:50

Bresnick, who's our producer. And

21:52

we just started recording even

21:54

before we did anything with

21:56

it. We recorded like a

21:58

year before we put it out you

22:00

know I think we dabbled with like

22:03

how like whether we wanted to go

22:05

with a network or what and I

22:07

think we really realized yeah this has

22:09

to be our own thing this has

22:11

to be we have to let it

22:13

figure itself out what it's going to

22:15

become it just was it was

22:17

born from our conversations and

22:19

our ability to be vulnerable

22:21

with each other and feeling safe enough

22:24

to do that. kind of almost forgetting

22:26

that the world would hear these conversations.

22:28

If you listen to our first one

22:30

it was as raw as can be

22:32

because we don't do just like you

22:34

just start prep work like well but

22:36

when someone fancy comes on you know

22:38

we have yes we have an idea

22:40

of who they are but when she and

22:42

I just talk there's no we don't

22:44

have a topic or I think we're getting

22:46

to the point where like can you guys

22:48

give us a topic yeah I think we're

22:50

starting to ask us to we talk about

22:52

So, you know, you talk about your MS.

22:54

Christina, you talked about your dentist day, just

22:57

a one day that now that I think

22:59

that really explained everything in like 30

23:01

seconds, what a day feels like. Are

23:03

there things that you do for yourself

23:05

that help that are not medical? Like,

23:07

do you, is there therapy? Do you

23:09

do breath? Is there something else that

23:11

you've tried that that has been helpful

23:13

to you? I wish I could say

23:15

that I'm like so gung-ho and like...

23:18

Let's go. Let's be the poster child

23:20

of the mess and I'm gonna do

23:22

all the things. I'm like, really I'm

23:24

not. I'm like the most kromuginy negative

23:27

on the planet. And if I wake

23:29

up in the morning and I put

23:31

my feet onto the ground and they

23:33

hurt, I'm like, well, guess we're

23:35

staying in bed today. We're not

23:38

doing anything because I don't feel like

23:40

being in pain. So that's nice. But

23:42

no, I do have a PT guy. And

23:44

we're trying to get me stronger. like

23:46

I have no muscle mass in my

23:48

legs anymore they are toothpicks and that's

23:50

all from like laying here and also

23:52

I have a here's here's I'm just

23:55

gonna vomit it all out I have a

23:57

motility issue in my stomach so I have trouble

23:59

with food and I mean I

24:01

love food, please don't get me

24:03

wrong, I had a breakfast burrito

24:05

today from Jones on third and

24:07

it was the best thing I've

24:09

ever had in my life. Thank

24:11

you very much. Anyway, but now

24:13

I'm so weak that like I

24:15

could break a femur, you know,

24:18

so we're just trying to go

24:20

very, very slowly. And trying different

24:22

medications and different treatments and different

24:24

supplements. More ahead with Jamie Lynn

24:26

Sigler and Christina Applegate, stay with

24:28

us. So

24:42

how has your relationship with your

24:44

kids changed? Well, my kids have

24:46

known me no other way, but

24:48

my kids react very differently to

24:50

it. My older son, Bo, is

24:52

just an angel. He's very empathetic

24:54

and consider it even at three

24:57

years old. I would, I get

24:59

very stiff when I'm sitting. for

25:01

a long period of time, we

25:03

would go to nursery school and

25:05

I would be getting out of

25:07

the car to kind of take

25:09

him around to the entrance and

25:12

he would stop people and say,

25:14

please wait, my mommy's just a

25:16

little slow. He just was always

25:18

looking out for me, always, you

25:20

know, protecting me. My little one,

25:22

not to say that he's not

25:24

an angel as well, but he

25:26

is angry about it. He is

25:29

frustrated that I cannot do the

25:31

things that other moms can do.

25:33

He doesn't think it's fair. And

25:35

that's okay. That's his experience with

25:37

this. And I just try to

25:39

make sure that I validate that

25:41

for him and that I understand

25:44

and that it's hard for me

25:46

too and I wish it was

25:48

different as well. He's gotten a

25:50

little bit better now that he's

25:52

seven, but I would say from

25:54

ages like two to six, he

25:56

wasn't happy with me about it.

25:58

And he made it known. Not

26:01

to say that it made it

26:03

harder for me, but I think

26:05

it was just, it was honest.

26:07

And I think if anything, it

26:09

pushed me more into my honesty

26:11

and my real feelings about things

26:13

too. Yeah, that's big. My daughter

26:15

always had a very able mom

26:18

until three years ago. Dance parties

26:20

every night, long walks every night,

26:22

boogie boarding at the beach, long

26:24

walks on the beach, doing everything.

26:26

being able to do everything. And

26:28

in one moment, it was all

26:30

gone and taken from her. And

26:33

I know it hurts her a

26:35

lot. I have a teenager, you

26:37

know, I have 14-year-old, so she's

26:39

very aware of the world, but

26:41

she still pushes me. Like, Mom,

26:43

can you please go down to

26:45

the kitchen to get my charger?

26:47

And it's like this unspoken thing.

26:50

She knows it's so hard for

26:52

me to do that. But she's

26:54

also testing, like, are you still

26:56

my mom? Are you still here

26:58

to protect me and take care

27:00

of me? And so I will

27:02

go, yes, and I will walk

27:05

down that hall with my hands

27:07

on the handrails, hoping to God

27:09

to not fall down the stairs,

27:11

and I will get her, her

27:13

charger, or whatever it is, and

27:15

bring it back up the two

27:17

flights of stairs to her room,

27:19

and with a smile, say, do

27:22

you need anything else? Nope, that's

27:24

it. And it's like unspoken. It's

27:26

like this. I'm not letting you

27:28

go yet. But recently I've been

27:30

pretty bad and it's been really

27:32

hard on her and I can

27:34

see it. So she spends a

27:37

lot of time with me in

27:39

my bed and we watch Bailin

27:41

out loud or only murders in

27:43

the building and we watch our

27:45

things together and we snuggle and

27:47

she lays on my chest. So

27:49

she knows that I'm still here.

27:51

Wow. That's profound too. So you

27:54

talked about a miracle, praying for

27:56

a miracle, keeping that, you know,

27:58

in your mind somewhere. Where does

28:00

that live and what do you

28:02

believe the future looks like? Sometimes

28:04

it's grim in my mind,

28:06

HODA to be completely honest.

28:08

Sometimes my, what I see is

28:11

really grim and it scares the crap

28:13

out of me. But then it's like, I've

28:15

overcome so many things so much in

28:17

my life. And you know, like Jamie

28:19

said earlier, you know, we both, without

28:22

each other knowing, we both have been

28:24

writing our books like during this whole

28:26

time, which then makes you a very

28:29

raw nerve. Mine's not about a mess,

28:31

it's about my childhood, but anyway,

28:33

you get you get really raw

28:35

and kind of I get very

28:38

fatalistic and you know, but that

28:40

miracle is like, okay, someone's

28:42

gonna come up with a

28:44

something or if I can just sit

28:47

here and see it, see myself walking

28:49

differently because I know that's

28:51

that's my truth spiritually

28:54

is the universe and thought is

28:56

creative and word is creative and

28:59

all of those things and it's

29:01

like this battle in my brain right

29:03

now of the side of me that is

29:05

you know went wah and the side

29:07

of me that's like you have done

29:10

this you have overcome things

29:12

you can do this and then

29:14

it's like no you can't this

29:16

much this one's permanent this is

29:18

lifelong this is you know this illness

29:20

that doesn't go away it's just

29:23

it The fight in my head

29:25

right now is pretty extraordinary

29:27

and I really hope that the

29:29

good wins. Jamie, what about for you?

29:31

How do you see it? You know, I

29:33

used to get really frustrated with

29:36

myself that I just have

29:38

this belief that this will go

29:40

away one day. I don't know if it's

29:42

a dream in my heart or

29:44

a deeper... It's not going away

29:46

sweetie. But meaning when I... No.

29:49

When I would get frustrated because

29:51

I would... constantly be proven

29:53

that it wasn't. It was, you

29:55

know, it's slowly, fortunately from even

29:57

a very slow burn, but slowly

29:59

progress. over the last 23 or four

30:01

years that I've had it. But

30:04

I would rather, I've

30:06

learned, would rather go through

30:08

this experience with that

30:10

hope in my heart than

30:13

not. I think it's

30:15

what pushes me in the

30:17

times when I need

30:19

it. I

30:21

think it's also made me

30:23

take care of myself in

30:25

a way that I never

30:28

used to. But

30:31

I do believe in

30:33

modern medicine. I also

30:35

believe healing is something

30:37

that you need to

30:39

come at from all

30:41

angles. I don't think

30:43

it's just one thing.

30:45

And I've come to

30:47

enjoy, even

30:49

if it's really hard, all

30:51

of the healing processes.

30:53

So like mentally, emotionally, spiritually,

30:56

physically. It's

30:59

allowed me to have a new relationship

31:01

with myself. I'm somebody that's been hard

31:03

on myself my entire life and judged

31:05

myself harshly my entire life. I've never

31:07

felt good enough. I've never felt worthy.

31:12

And so in my quest

31:14

for healing, it used

31:16

to be just physical, physical,

31:18

physical, but now it's

31:20

like this well -rounded thing

31:22

that every person deserves. And

31:24

I think that's kind

31:26

of where messy goes beyond

31:28

just MS with our

31:30

listeners because when you hear

31:32

it through your filter

31:34

or for your experiences, the

31:37

more specific you get with

31:39

your vulnerability, the more universal it

31:41

becomes because we're all facing

31:43

very similar battles in the end

31:45

of the day. I

31:48

was going to say, Jamie,

31:50

I don't know if you know

31:52

this, but three of my

31:54

friends whose parents had MS in

31:56

the last year all have

31:58

passed away from MS. And it's

32:00

like, it wasn't just... age it wasn't

32:02

like something else and it's like it's because of this and

32:04

that's what makes me sometimes hit my

32:06

head and go oh no that's the inevitable

32:08

you know but we're all gonna go

32:10

there but I don't want it to be

32:13

because of this well Christina and I

32:15

talk also a lot about not to

32:17

like when I get emotional and then

32:19

I do this a lot yeah if she's gonna

32:21

get really emotional she'll just lay all the

32:23

way back okay and I just know I

32:25

have to take over for a moment and

32:28

my glass is fog up. Can you see

32:30

things get foggy because I start sweating

32:32

and getting upset? But Christina and

32:34

I also talk about, you know,

32:36

if you think about like metaphysically, like

32:39

her and I both have had

32:41

a lot of trauma in our life

32:43

and for me a lot of inward turned

32:45

pain, anger that I never felt

32:47

comfortable putting expressing out into the

32:49

world so I turn it all

32:51

inward. It's, you know, you have

32:53

to think energetically at some point

32:55

too like... what happens with that stuff

32:58

when it's all put inside the

33:00

body? How does it manifest? How

33:02

can it be created? I think

33:04

there's a lot of different elements

33:06

that contribute to it, but that's

33:08

what I mean in the healing

33:10

part. I just, I take responsibility,

33:12

I take some responsibility in this,

33:14

in that, not like I would

33:17

ever consciously choose this for myself,

33:19

but I like to walk down the road

33:21

of feeling like... There are some things that

33:23

I can undo, even if that's just feeling

33:25

better about myself. My body might not change,

33:27

but I feel better about who I am.

33:30

Yeah, I think there is something to all

33:32

of the, you know, Maria and some

33:34

other friends introduced me to a lot

33:36

of this kind of breathward things that

33:38

I thought were, quite frankly, sort

33:40

of a shoulder shrug. I was like, I've

33:43

been breathing my whole life girl, I don't

33:45

need you to tell me how to do it. And

33:47

then all of a sudden... I tried one

33:49

one breathwork session with some

33:51

person on Zoom, and when I

33:53

was done, it was 10 minutes. It

33:55

was exactly as she told

33:57

me to. I exploded in tears.

34:00

And I said, what was that? And

34:02

she said, it was stress. And I

34:04

said, I'd never, this was simply

34:06

doing a breathing exercise. So when

34:08

my fiancé at the time came

34:10

home, I said to him, lay on the

34:12

couch, he played rugby, broke his

34:14

nose like five times, you know,

34:17

finance. Anyway, he's on the couch. I

34:19

go. I love it. You're like, he

34:21

played rugby. Finance. He's that guy. He's

34:23

like that guy. Anyway, he's on the

34:25

couch. And I tell him, I go,

34:27

I want you to do this breathing

34:29

technique. I just did it. And he

34:31

goes, what are you talking about? I'm

34:33

hungry. Like, yeah, just a minute. So

34:36

it was lower belly, high chest, and

34:38

out all through your mouth. Like, so

34:40

he starts doing it. He goes,

34:42

I'm feeling lightheaded. I said, that's

34:44

normal. Six minutes into it.

34:46

This man, broken nose, rugby, finance,

34:49

exploded into tears. I

34:51

exploded into tears. He jumped off

34:53

the couch and he said, what was that.

34:55

And I said, they said, it's stress.

34:58

I don't know. But what it was

35:00

telling me is something so simple that

35:02

I don't even know what the stress

35:04

was, nor did I care. It wasn't

35:07

in me anymore. But it got

35:09

me thinking about other ways, even for

35:11

your own mental health, to free yourself,

35:13

you know, to free up a little

35:15

bit. And like you said, there are

35:18

lots of routes in, who knows what's

35:20

what or what or what works, but...

35:22

My philosophy is always if it

35:24

can't hurt. Sorry, Christina, what were

35:26

you going to say? No, no, no,

35:29

because Jamie and I just think we

35:31

get in trouble if we talk over

35:33

each other. Just with our producer. You

35:35

go first. You go. No, I was just

35:37

going to say because what I was

35:39

thinking when you were talking about

35:41

that was when I had breast

35:43

cancer, I was coming out of

35:45

an incredibly horrible, stressful, personal

35:48

situation. Now, yes, I'm

35:50

Baraka, but come on. Right. Right? And

35:52

what they're seeing now, and Jamie and I

35:54

have talked about this, and we're not doctors,

35:56

and nor do we claim to be, I

35:58

do in my own mind. I completely think

36:00

I'm a doctor, but that's a

36:03

whole other thing. That they're seeing

36:05

that trauma and certain types of

36:07

personalities are those people that are

36:09

getting MS. Because there's scars on

36:12

our brain, it's scars, right? So

36:14

something has been broken, something has

36:16

been cut, something has been hurt.

36:19

And or in Jamie's case, you

36:21

know, mine are all in my

36:23

brain, that's all I know. We've

36:25

had people on our show, this

36:28

beautiful doctor or clinician about trauma,

36:30

that was so huge for both

36:32

of us about what that does

36:34

to us, not just in a

36:37

physical sense, you know, but what

36:39

it does to every part of

36:41

our life, how we operate in

36:44

the world. It just, I mean,

36:46

we all know that, but when

36:48

you really can like get it

36:50

to be finite, it's really just,

36:53

it gives it less power, I

36:55

think. Yeah, I found meditation really

36:57

helps too. I was actually talking

36:59

to my son recently about meditation

37:02

because he was asking me about

37:04

it. He said, what do you

37:06

think of when you meditate? And

37:09

I said, well, I'm trying not

37:11

to think. But he's like, well,

37:13

what do you see? And I

37:15

was like, well, there is a

37:18

visualization. I have very often. And

37:20

it's me running again on a

37:22

beach towards my children. And

37:25

it's beautiful, it is my greatest

37:27

wish, and I love it. And

37:29

he said to me, Mommy, are

37:31

you sad when you wake up?

37:34

Because you can't. And I said,

37:36

no, I'm actually so happy because

37:38

that was real. In my meditation,

37:41

when I run to you, it

37:43

felt real in every cell of

37:45

my body. And no one can

37:47

take that away from me. And

37:50

no one can take that away

37:52

from me. And no one can

37:54

take that away from me. And

37:56

no one can take that away

37:59

from me. While yes, now I'm

38:01

going to struggle to get up

38:03

and limp towards the kitchen to

38:05

make you your snack. I just

38:08

ran to you for 20 minutes.

38:10

And it's become my favorite part

38:12

of the day. Whether it's another

38:15

dimension, an alter reality, or I'm

38:17

just crazy, whatever it is, it's

38:19

medicine. It's over. Yeah, she's back.

38:21

Uh-oh. Okay, we got to take

38:24

over. She's got to give her

38:26

a minute before she sits back

38:28

up. Oh, Otis got it down

38:30

already. Oh my God. Wow, that

38:33

was profound and beautiful. You guys,

38:35

I was, I don't know what

38:37

I was expecting out of this

38:39

conversation, but it surpassed it by

38:42

about a hundred fold. So I

38:44

want people to tune into messy

38:46

because it, if it's, which it

38:49

is, because I've... Listen to some

38:51

of your episodes. People are in

38:53

for a real treat. All right,

38:55

I love you guys. We love

38:58

you. I'm a good one, guys.

39:00

We're going to get to New

39:02

York soon. Come see you. OK,

39:04

I'll be here waiting for you.

39:07

All right. Bye, guys. Hey

39:13

guys, thank you so much for

39:15

listening and for coming on this

39:17

journey with me. If you like

39:19

what you heard and I hope

39:21

that you do, please give Making

39:24

Space a five-star rating and review

39:26

on Apple podcasts. And make sure

39:28

you tell your friends, follow us

39:30

on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever

39:32

you're listening right now. Making Space

39:34

with Hotokott v is produced by

39:36

Allison Berger and Alexa Cacebeccia, along

39:38

with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio

39:40

engineer is Juliana. Our audio engineers

39:42

are Katie Lao and Mark Yoshi

39:44

Zumi. Original music by John Estes

39:46

Bryson Barnes is our head of

39:48

audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is

39:50

our executive producer. Libby Least is

39:52

the executive vice president of Today

39:54

and Lifestyle. You