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Daily, hosted by me, by me. On the show

1:31

On this show, we navigate the shaping

1:33

the crypto markets, providing insights against the

1:35

broader financial landscape. So whether you're

1:37

actively trading or simply fascinated by what's

1:40

going on in the crypto markets, on

1:42

show is your compass to understanding is

1:44

your what's happened, where we are and

1:46

where we're going. we are, Joining where we're show

1:48

is today's is EUI Global Chairman of the

1:50

Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, Paul Brody. Paul, Paul

1:52

it's been a while since we've had

1:54

you on. How's it going? it going?

1:56

It is going actually really

1:59

good. really. good. That's the theme the

2:01

theme for It's going to It's gonna

2:03

be good. the theme for is the

2:05

theme for 2025. mean, I a been

2:07

a while you you and I have

2:09

chatted on and so so much has happened.

2:12

for You wrote it's -ed for on coin It's

2:14

published on Now you .com about You talk

2:16

about all of the breakthroughs that we

2:18

saw in 2024. you were If you

2:20

were to pinpoint one major breakthrough that

2:22

really defined the year, what would

2:24

you say it was? it was? Oh, I

2:26

mean, I mean, everyone's gonna say

2:28

it was was a U.S. election. And if if you

2:30

sort of take that one out of the

2:33

picture, because it is hugely important in

2:35

terms of changing the vibe, the other one

2:37

I would say I the say ETF that

2:39

started the year. the year, just been a

2:41

year of continuous acceleration. that the It's not

2:43

that the direction has changed. The only

2:45

thing that's happened this year year is the

2:47

has stayed the same and the pace

2:49

of acceleration has just kept going it

2:51

going up. Well, that's exactly it. You

2:54

know, Things really started to take

2:56

off like rapid fire this year. What

2:58

does this tell you about

3:00

where we're going in 2025? What

3:03

do you expect to see in

3:05

2025 been that the ETFs have been

3:07

approved in the United States for and ether,

3:09

we have a new administration We have a new

3:11

administration coming into the United States

3:13

that is much more friendly they're say

3:15

they're much more friendly to crypto. what do

3:17

you expect to see? to see? So if

3:19

there was a there was a we've seen in the

3:21

seen in the last few years,

3:23

it's it's that in general, people

3:25

are moving towards a world of of

3:27

stable coins and defy services running on public blockchains.

3:29

And the entire the entire in this

3:31

process of gradual regulatory conversion. We

3:33

saw this like with conversion. We saw year,

3:35

with MICA everywhere in the world, everywhere

3:37

buy crypto, you you could use stablecoins,

3:39

you can make international payments, right?

3:42

The regulatory structure is moving, The

3:44

it's not completely aligned, but it

3:46

is moving in the right direction. But

3:48

But at the same time, it's been a

3:50

very gradual movement. big The big theme

3:52

for thing that's the thing that's really different

3:54

how how radically things have accelerated and how

3:56

how far down the path we are

3:59

going to be quick. And And specifically I

4:01

mean I mean by this the way, as we've

4:03

along the way, as we've been

4:05

heading towards public blockchains and standard tokens

4:07

on and stable coins, banks, banks, enterprises, been others

4:09

have been saying, well, I really

4:11

want to get to this destination. I

4:13

I want to have standard tokens on

4:16

public on public theory, the regulators of don't

4:18

permit me to do so yet. So

4:20

I'm going do these kind of compromise

4:22

things which are are of of there. All

4:24

of a sudden the value proposition of all

4:26

these compromises has disappeared, right? right? We

4:28

have suddenly sort of raised towards the

4:30

destination and we we know where this is

4:32

going that's going be really different. It's just

4:34

just know what the destination is now now

4:37

they know we're gonna get there

4:39

much more quickly than they thought they

4:41

were going to a year ago. year ago.

4:43

Now you Now you mentioned stable coins that's

4:45

something I want to talk to you about.

4:47

It's been a really big year for

4:49

stablecoins for really solidifying many of the use

4:51

cases that stablecoins can slot into. I

4:53

know that you've done some work on the

4:55

enterprise side with stablecoins. Let's start there

4:57

and then we can broaden out to some

4:59

of the other great innovation we've seen

5:01

in the space we've seen it comes to this

5:03

specific asset. asset. So stable coins are

5:06

are really, this in this breakout moment

5:08

they moving from something that gets used

5:10

in a crypto ecosystem to a

5:12

standard tool of person -to -person and business

5:14

-to -business payments. now Now, specifically the the

5:16

area of enterprise, The thing the thing that's

5:18

been holding back stablecoin payments is

5:20

automation and scale. So So My Firm, we're a

5:22

we're a good example. Like we've been

5:24

taking stablecoin and crypto payments for

5:26

a while, but every time you do

5:28

it, it's a manual process. You

5:30

call us up, we make arrangements, You

5:32

send it to our, make know, institutional

5:35

custody. it to our, you know, we have

5:37

done over the last year with

5:39

working with SAP, have done over the last and

5:41

with working with SAP, PayPal, and this. Base is now,

5:43

for example, we So now, the first

5:46

we received the first B2B, PY US dollar

5:48

payment from PayPal. It was

5:50

executed inside their their computing system.

5:53

They should pay this They should pay this

5:55

we were doing some work

5:57

for were doing some work that automatically paid

5:59

paid from. from PayPal's wallet directly to

6:01

EY's institutional account at coin base

6:03

facilitated by their enterprise ERP system.

6:06

That kind of automation means that

6:08

banks can or enterprises can very

6:10

easily switch their payments from say

6:12

a banking rail to a crypto

6:14

rail without any incremental cost. And

6:16

this clears the path for what

6:18

I think is going to be

6:21

a flood of B2B payment transitions.

6:23

And just to give you a

6:25

data point. a real one, we

6:27

estimate internally at UI. UI alone,

6:29

we spend over 100 million dollars

6:31

a year on bank fees for

6:33

payments and receipt of mostly of

6:36

international payments because we're we operate

6:38

in like 200 countries. We're not

6:40

atypical, right? We probably are a

6:42

bit more international than most firms,

6:44

but we are not atypical, and

6:46

those kinds of fees offer the

6:48

potential for very significant savings if

6:51

you can run that kind of

6:53

thing at scale. I

6:56

mean, that sounds incredible. I think about

6:58

this going mainstream, but I also think

7:00

about the banks. Talk to me about

7:02

how the banks are seeing experiments like

7:05

this, and if there is a rule

7:07

for the banks to play in these

7:09

transactions, given that they are going to

7:11

be losing in the hundreds of millions

7:13

of dollars of fees, should this become

7:15

commonplace? So this is going to be,

7:18

I think, one of the defining regulatory

7:20

battles of 2025 is leveling the playing

7:22

field between banks and crypto companies. So

7:24

crypto natives, particularly depending on the regulatory

7:26

regime, Cryptomatives are not subject to quite

7:28

the same set of rules. Banks are

7:31

subject to a different set of regulators,

7:33

and some of the rules are quite

7:35

different, especially ones that are specified in

7:37

like SAB 121 or in the Basel,

7:39

kind of financial reserves rules. So banks

7:41

feel like the playing field is not

7:43

level. Now, in the short run, there's

7:46

a huge role for banks, which is

7:48

you need to have this on and

7:50

on and off. Right. Most companies don't

7:52

have a ton of money in crypto.

7:54

So there is this opportunity for on

7:56

an offer. But I think in the

7:59

longer run banks want to play in

8:01

this game too and I think we

8:03

could see in 2025 some pretty competitive

8:05

price actions in the traditional payment infrastructure

8:07

and we could also see banks pushing

8:09

really hard for a much more level

8:11

playing field between the different types of

8:14

companies in the space. So that's on

8:16

the enterprise side of things. I mean,

8:18

outside of enterprise, we've seen incredible innovation

8:20

and adoption when it comes to stable

8:22

coins, particularly outside of the United States

8:24

on this show. I'd like to talk

8:27

about we did a coin disc live

8:29

broadcast from Buenos Aires a few months

8:31

ago, and it was incredible to see

8:33

the adoption. Everyone I talked to understood

8:35

stable coins, they understood how to use

8:37

stable coins. It was such a vast.

8:40

differentiation from here in the United States.

8:42

Now with the different regime coming in,

8:44

we expect deregulation, we expect more regulatory

8:46

clarity, could we see stable coins become

8:48

more pervasive for the everyday consumer? So

8:50

it is happening in especially in emerging

8:52

markets right and one of my favorite

8:55

case examples is the Ethereum L2 blockchain

8:57

called cello right they have a partnership

8:59

with opera and and through them opera

9:01

mini pay that gives people access to

9:03

US dollar at local currency payments on

9:05

smartphones all across steps on Africa there

9:08

their stable coin volume has been booming

9:10

this year New Bank in Brazil has

9:12

a partnership with Queen base so we

9:14

are seeing very deep person to person

9:16

payment integration. And what we're also seeing

9:18

reflected is the immense demand for the

9:20

US dollar, right? So still something like

9:23

99% more than 99% of all staple

9:25

coin payments are US dollar denominated. And

9:27

what we're seeing in a lot of

9:29

these emerging markets is that people in

9:31

those markets want access to the US

9:33

dollar. So that is a hugely important

9:36

milestone that we're seeing. And a regulatory

9:38

environment that permits that is probably going

9:40

to increase the US dollars dominance globally

9:42

globally. At the top of the show

9:44

you mentioned defy stable coins public block

9:46

chains. We talked about stable goins, talked

9:48

a little bit about public block chains,

9:51

talked to me about D-Fi. Many of

9:53

the folks have come on this show

9:55

in the past few weeks are calling

9:57

for a resurgence of D-Fi again because

9:59

of the deregulation that is to come

10:01

in the United States next year. What

10:04

do you expect to see? Two things,

10:06

both of them are going to fuel

10:08

a spectacular defy summer. I mean, everybody

10:10

in this business should be putting on

10:12

sunscreen, right? It's going to be that

10:14

good, like, and that the two drivers

10:17

of the following, right, first of all,

10:19

The regulatory environment is going to be

10:21

much more favorable. When we put together

10:23

like rule charts of like what's allowed

10:25

around the world, the one category that's

10:27

really not regulated or has no special

10:29

regulations that explain things and kind of

10:32

clarify the rules of the road is

10:34

defy. defy is going to get those

10:36

rules of the road, probably first in

10:38

the United States, but it could possibly

10:40

clear the path for defy style regulations

10:42

or guidance in a lot of other

10:45

countries just as a matter of kind

10:47

of competitive kind of regulatory consistency. And

10:49

the other thing that's happening is, DeFi

10:51

had a bit of a winter, not

10:53

just because crypto had a winter, but

10:55

also because interest rates were really high.

10:57

Like, if you could make 5% on

11:00

treasuries in the real world, why would

11:02

you chase extra two or three points

11:04

on DeFi? Now, as interest rates come

11:06

back down, that's going to kick off

11:08

a mainstream search for yield. If the

11:10

real rate that you're getting on your

11:13

treasury or bank account is 1 or

11:15

2%, then getting another 2, 3, 4,

11:17

5% from defy is starting to be

11:19

meaningful. And so I think those two

11:21

market factors coming together. a more positive

11:23

regulatory environment and a search for better

11:26

yield is going to drive demand for

11:28

defy through the roof. And so I

11:30

expect 2025 to be absolutely blockbuster year

11:32

for defy. You know, regardless of all

11:34

the breakthroughs that we've had, there is

11:36

still this call for mainstream adoption. What

11:38

is it going to be that brings

11:41

the mainstream to crypto? And as you're

11:43

talking about, you know, all of the

11:45

great innovation that is to come for

11:47

defy, I think you What is it

11:49

going to take for just like people

11:51

on the street, my cab driver, my

11:54

mom, people I run into outside to

11:56

actually interact with some of these different

11:58

protocols and and use them as they

12:00

do, you know, web pages or websites

12:02

that they're using today? What do you

12:04

think that's going to take? And how

12:06

long do you think that's going to

12:09

take? So I believe the key to

12:11

technology adoption. Technologies become embedded and adopted

12:13

sort of massively at scale when they

12:15

become invisible. When you go to your

12:17

brokerage account and you buy some shares

12:19

of a company and the S&P 500

12:22

or you buy an S&P 500 index

12:24

fund, you don't know which system it's

12:26

being executed on. You don't know if

12:28

it was the nice or the NASDAQ

12:30

or some kind of private dark pool.

12:32

You don't know and you don't care.

12:35

And this is what we have to

12:37

get to. And just a great example

12:39

is... Some of this integration, for example,

12:41

that new bank and coin base in

12:43

Brazil did, or sorry, a circle, a

12:45

new bank in circle in Brazil did

12:47

for US dollar payments, I would venture

12:50

to guess that the vast majority of

12:52

people who use that. who don't, they

12:54

don't really know who is making it

12:56

possible for them to send and receive

12:58

US dollars very easily from their bank

13:00

account. They just know that it works.

13:03

And I think the same is true

13:05

for most of the offer of many

13:07

pay users in emerging markets. They don't

13:09

really know what the other many pay

13:11

users in emerging markets. They don't really

13:13

know what the underlying technology is. They

13:15

might not even know it works on

13:18

cello. They just know that they have

13:20

a wallet in their phone and now

13:22

they can have four years ago and

13:24

I am. was way too early then,

13:26

but one of my predictions is that

13:28

one of the first people to really

13:31

scale a defy, there will be a

13:33

major player that will offer a curated

13:35

window into the world of defy. And

13:37

it won't be called Defire, anything fancy,

13:39

it will just be like, hey, you

13:41

know, we've selected a number of savings

13:43

tools that you could put money into

13:46

and earn instead of 3%, you can

13:48

earn six or seven or 8%. And,

13:50

you know, we've selected the list of

13:52

four that you can pick from. These

13:54

are riskier than normal. but they also

13:56

give you a better return and it'll

13:59

be this curated window. into defy that

14:01

banks and payment services will start offering.

14:03

And again, people won't know where or

14:05

how or the underlying infrastructure. Instead, what

14:07

they'll be looking at is this is

14:09

how they get their return. This is

14:12

the kind of risk you can expect.

14:14

It'll be sold like a regular investment

14:16

and the plumbing won't matter. That's what

14:18

I think it's going to take. I

14:20

want to talk about another one of

14:22

your predictions that you wrote about. You

14:24

said that 2025 is going to be

14:27

a fabulous year. for fraud. Why do

14:29

you think this unpack it a little

14:31

bit for me? So in this industry,

14:33

and this is my cynicism having been

14:35

around now for 12 years, I think,

14:37

in crypto and blockchain. We are so

14:40

good at providing a nice holiday gift

14:42

to our critics, right? Usually in the

14:44

form of some kind of like gigantic

14:46

fraud or business collapse, we've had, we

14:48

have never made it through a major

14:50

crypto cycle without quite a few of

14:52

them. I feel like we are speed

14:55

running the entire regulatory cycle again this

14:57

time, right? If you go look at

14:59

like pump dot fun and kind of

15:01

the casino and atmosphere, it feels it

15:03

feels very bubbly to be honest, very

15:05

frothy. And so I do not love

15:08

that about the ecosystem. That being said,

15:10

I do think we have the industry

15:12

as a whole with audits and better

15:14

regulation. We have closed off some of

15:16

the worst avenues for fraud and theft.

15:18

And so I hope that although there

15:21

will probably be the same grifters will

15:23

be back at the table in 2025

15:25

pumping bean coins and other nonsense. their

15:27

ability to do so any very large

15:29

scale might hopefully be quite a bit

15:31

smaller. I got to ask just before

15:33

we wrap up, you mentioned meme coins

15:36

and other nonsense and they really are

15:38

one of the driving narratives as we

15:40

had into 2025. There are meme coins,

15:42

there are meme coins that are being

15:44

generated by AI influencers and AI agents.

15:46

It's so easy to use pumped out

15:49

fun and spin up a meme coin

15:51

faster than you ever could before. What

15:53

does this tell you about where we

15:55

are? And do you think that that's

15:57

going to drive us right through 2025?

15:59

Is this momentum going to be sustainable?

16:01

I don't really know. A lot of

16:04

people are losing money on meme coins.

16:06

Fortunately, in most cases, are just losing

16:08

small amounts of money and it's kind

16:10

of fun and entertainment for them. I

16:12

think, you know, there's a lot of

16:14

us in the ecosystem who are kind

16:17

of divided in their opinion at the

16:19

value proposition of the value proposition of

16:21

this. There's definitely one point of view,

16:23

which is like, and they're getting people

16:25

to open up wallets and familiarize themselves.

16:27

And there's another viewpoint, which is like,

16:30

Mean Coins are basically kind of gambling

16:32

and it might be entertainment, but some

16:34

people, like we know with gambling, some

16:36

people don't handle it well and we're

16:38

gonna see the same thing with Mean

16:40

Coins. So I probably sort of would

16:42

be, I make it makes me feel

16:45

old to say this, but I'm not

16:47

the most enormous fan and I don't

16:49

have Brody coin here to pitch to

16:51

you, so, so, but I think. I

16:53

hope that what it mostly does is

16:55

it just gets people on board and

16:58

open a wallet and they start to

17:00

think themselves, well, I can do something

17:02

useful with this, not just like Ben

17:04

on meme points. All right, this is

17:06

a show where we are optimistic, where

17:08

we're looking forward to 2025. I don't

17:10

want to end on that note. So

17:13

tell me, what's the one, we talked

17:15

about the one big breakthrough in 2024,

17:17

what's the next one big milestone you're

17:19

looking forward to in the new year?

17:22

So I think the one big milestone that

17:24

we're going to look for in the new

17:26

year is written rules that kind of guide

17:28

the path forward. So what's sustaining the optimism

17:30

right now is knowledge of where we are

17:32

going. But where we are knowing where we

17:34

are headed and actually being there are different

17:36

things. And so we have a lot of

17:38

optimism now about, hey, I think we're heading

17:40

in the right direction, standard tokens, public block

17:43

chains, Ethereum, stable coins, all good, right? But

17:45

when we get there, when we have new

17:47

regulators in place, and they have specifically written

17:49

the rules, that's where we're going to see

17:51

a whole bunch of people who were sitting

17:53

on the sidelines, jump into the pool, and

17:55

so we'll have. I think the

17:57

second wave of optimism

17:59

and engagement that will

18:01

come once the new

18:03

come actually get specified

18:05

and take hold. get feel

18:08

like hold. is going to be a

18:10

year is we have a bunch of

18:12

where we have a of good news as

18:14

that news shape and grows over the

18:16

course of the year. So I'm year.

18:18

optimistic. We sort of set our theme

18:21

We for 2025 at EY for blockchain. around We're

18:23

calling it into the sunshine. We're calling it

18:25

that is we are headed. We

18:27

are headed into the the sunshine. I

18:29

love love that, Paul. Thanks so much

18:31

for joining Staley today. It is always

18:33

a pleasure. a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

18:36

And thank you thank you to our audience

18:38

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