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dash apply. That's Masters of

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scale.com/Business Awards dash apply. We've

1:26

just never seen something this nasty.

1:28

The anger, the kind of feeling

1:31

that none of this aid matters,

1:33

it's deeply disturbing to people, you

1:35

know, really of any ideology, because

1:37

they don't see that there is

1:39

an ideology. If you were motivated

1:41

to want to be a non-profit

1:43

or philanthropy worker, why would you

1:46

do that after somebody has made

1:48

it sound like it's the dirtiest

1:50

profession ever, rather than a call

1:52

the public service? That's

2:00

Stacey Palmer, the CEO of

2:02

the Chronicle of Philanthropy. The

2:04

world of public service is

2:06

in turmoil with President Trump's

2:08

dramatic cuts to U.S. government

2:10

grants, traumatizing nonprofits and foundations,

2:12

and destabilizing a swath of

2:14

civic society. I wanted to

2:16

talk to Stacey to better

2:18

understand the on-the-ground realities for

2:21

organizations that suddenly find themselves

2:23

in the new administration's crosshairs.

2:25

We talk about the unfolding

2:27

battle over funding, how it's

2:29

reshifting non-profit priorities, the impact

2:31

on corporate giving, and

2:34

whether the private sector

2:36

and take the place

2:38

of government support. The

2:41

president's recent address to

2:43

Congress included harsh examples

2:46

of alleged waste in

2:48

grant making, but they're

2:50

still brought uncertainty about

2:53

Trump's overarching philosophy

2:55

about non-profits. So

2:57

let's get to it. I'm

3:00

Bob Safian, and this is

3:02

Rapid Response. Delighted to join

3:04

you. Thousands of not-for-profits, aid

3:07

groups, universities, hospitals rely on

3:09

government grants. The Trump administration

3:11

has targeted that aid, first

3:13

announcing a full-on freeze of

3:15

grants and loans in late

3:17

January, later rescinded, but many

3:19

subsequent cuts. Then in his

3:21

recent address to Congress, he

3:23

named checked a litany of

3:25

what he'd... framed as wasteful,

3:27

absurd grants. What's going on?

3:29

What is the mood like

3:31

in the philanthropy world? Is

3:33

it anger? Is it fear?

3:35

Are there any cheers?

3:37

Nonprofits and foundations are mostly

3:39

terrified for a lot of different

3:42

reasons. One is about just the

3:44

philosophy of cutting off this aid.

3:46

One is about the direct. impact

3:49

on their organizations. The other is

3:51

that there's fear for the safety

3:53

of their staffs, a lot of

3:56

concern about whether all of this

3:58

targeting of non-profit might lead to

4:00

physical or cyber security or other

4:03

kinds of threats. So I would

4:05

say most people in the nonprofit

4:07

world are in a very bad

4:09

state, worse than I've seen before

4:11

in my history of covering these

4:13

organizations, and worse than it was

4:15

in the Reagan administration when we

4:17

saw a lot of cuts. Even

4:19

the conservatives who feel strongly about

4:21

cutting government and see that there's

4:23

waste are very upset about the

4:25

fact that this seems so haphazard

4:27

that there's not a philosophy of

4:29

the idea that we should ask

4:31

philanthropy to take up the charge

4:33

and we should be organized about

4:35

how we think about that. This

4:37

all seems very random. It comes,

4:39

it goes, it means that non-profits

4:41

can't make payroll. It means that

4:43

foundations can't figure out what the

4:45

smartest strategy is to do. So

4:47

it's a pretty... rough time in

4:49

the nonprofit and foundation world. I

4:52

mean, beyond the funding, you mentioned

4:54

concerns for physical safety. Are there

4:56

examples of that? Are stories of

4:58

that? Are you just hearing that

5:00

from certain kinds of organizations? I've

5:02

talked to several grantmakers who said

5:04

that the first request they're getting

5:06

for extra funding is to beef

5:08

up security and that organizations that

5:10

deal with the most controversial issues,

5:12

immigrants, LGBTQ rights, those kinds of

5:14

things, feel threatened. They say that

5:16

they're concerned about doxing and I

5:18

don't have any examples but I

5:20

can't tell whether they're withholding the

5:22

examples because of fear. Things are

5:24

moving so fast. I mean, there

5:26

have been lawsuits filed to challenge

5:28

the administration. It's hard to follow

5:30

all the back and forth. I

5:32

know you guys have launched special

5:34

coverage to try to keep up

5:36

with the Trump agenda as it

5:39

moves around. Is money still flowing,

5:41

but nobody knows for how long

5:43

or has it been cut off?

5:45

And is that what we're talking

5:47

about, like a faucet being turned

5:49

all the way off? Some groups,

5:51

even though a court said, you

5:53

know, the money has to keep

5:55

flowing, they say that the money

5:57

isn't flowing, and that they've suffered

5:59

freezes. environmental groups, for example, say

6:01

that they can't figure out what's

6:03

going on with their banks not

6:05

releasing the money to them. And

6:07

so there have been disputes over

6:09

that. So it's not that no

6:11

aid is flowing. I think some

6:13

is, but it's in no organized

6:15

way that you can figure out

6:17

why is it coming from some

6:19

agencies and not. And when you

6:21

think about it, all the federal

6:23

workers who have been laid off,

6:26

those are the people who would

6:28

turn on the spigots and make

6:30

sure that things are flowing and

6:32

happening. call the person in the

6:34

federal government who you used to

6:36

call, they're not there anymore. I'm

6:38

curious that the the morning of

6:40

that first freeze memo in early

6:42

January, like where were you? How

6:44

did you react? Did you did

6:46

you sense that this was like

6:48

the start of something very different?

6:50

Yes, absolutely. We knew that things

6:52

were going to be different than

6:54

they were in the first Trump

6:56

term, which really rattled non-profits in

6:58

a lot of ways. But it

7:00

was clear this was different. The

7:02

part that was most striking to

7:04

me was how quickly non-profits responded.

7:06

They took the federal government to

7:08

court right away. They worked through

7:10

the night as soon as they

7:12

heard about it. They were taking

7:15

action. That is incredibly unusual in

7:17

the non-profit world. religion, they don't

7:19

always have coalitions that are very

7:21

strong and agile. But in this

7:23

case, they did, and they were

7:25

quickly able to persuade the courts

7:27

to say, wait a minute, halt.

7:29

This is not something that really

7:31

conforms to the law. And so

7:33

far, they have had quite a

7:35

few victories in court. There's still

7:37

more to come, but they have

7:39

been winning. When you refer to

7:41

the Trump administration's... philosophy behind their

7:43

actions. I'm curious how you would

7:45

describe the sort of role of

7:47

philanthropy and of nonprofit organizations overall

7:49

in our economy and our society.

7:51

One of the things that people

7:53

don't really understand is they see

7:55

billionaires who are incredibly and they

7:57

see them giving away money. People

7:59

like Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren

8:02

Buffett, and the dollars are striking.

8:04

They're more than any of us

8:06

could think about giving. But they

8:08

are tiny compared to what the

8:10

federal government spends. You know, the

8:12

Gates Foundation could spend all of

8:14

the money in its coffers, and

8:16

it would just keep government operating

8:18

maybe for a day. You know,

8:20

it's just the scale is quite,

8:22

quite different. So it's very important

8:24

to understand the role that government

8:26

plays, and it's too full. One

8:28

is direct funding. of nonprofits. The

8:30

second is when the federal government

8:32

and the state and local governments

8:34

pull back, there are more people

8:36

in need. That means they turn

8:39

to nonprofits for extra help. So

8:41

often what happens in these cutbacks

8:43

is not just that the nonprofits

8:45

lose the support they need to

8:47

provide services, but they have

8:49

more people at their doors. So,

8:51

you know, the scale of what

8:53

philanthropy can do versus the federal

8:55

government is really important to understand.

8:57

Now that's not to say that

8:59

philanthropy can't pick up more. There

9:02

has been enormous run-up in wealth

9:04

as we all know. There are

9:06

many billionaires who could give very

9:08

generously and make a difference. So

9:10

nonprofits are certainly calling on them

9:12

to do more and calling on

9:14

the nation's foundations for Rockefeller, all

9:16

the names that you all know, asking

9:18

them to step up. But it would be

9:21

foolish to think that any private

9:23

entities can make up for what

9:25

the government's doing. And so just

9:27

to play devil's advocate, like for

9:29

profit businesses, the private sector, wealthy

9:32

individuals, they can't enable all of

9:34

this work. It has to fall

9:36

on the government to be

9:39

the funder? Not, I think there could

9:41

be a shift in, you know, the

9:43

proportion for sure that comes from... wealthy

9:45

individuals and so there are some ways

9:47

to go at it. I think even

9:49

the biggest defenders of government would say

9:51

there are some programs that aren't really

9:54

as efficient as they ought to be

9:56

and it's time to re-examine this. I

9:58

think everybody's open to that. but it's

10:00

this haphazard, not very thoughtful way

10:02

of doing it that's causing a

10:05

problem. Philosophy can't know how to

10:07

step in in this case. Now,

10:09

you know, you see people like

10:11

Michael Bloomberg stepping in and giving

10:13

to the World Health Organization as

10:15

soon as those cuts were made.

10:18

So some of these things are

10:20

beginning to happen, but whether, you

10:22

know, somebody like that could sustain

10:24

all of the federal governments. contribution

10:26

is a question. The other thing

10:28

we have to think about is,

10:30

do we want the billionaire setting

10:33

the agenda? Some of them are

10:35

very well-intentioned, but some of them

10:37

are looking out for their own

10:39

business interest. Some of them are

10:41

just not aware of all the

10:43

problems on the ground. That's one

10:46

of the difficult things about philanthropy,

10:48

is that you don't necessarily see

10:50

billionaires giving to the local food

10:52

bank. They just don't know the

10:54

scale of the problems. So those

10:56

are the organizations that suffer. you'll

10:59

see big gifts perhaps to the

11:01

well-known institutions. Harvard and MIT will

11:03

probably continue to get donations, but

11:05

will the community groups get it

11:07

if we leave it to the

11:09

billionaires? Probably not. I mean, I

11:12

can imagine that on the one

11:14

hand, they're grant recipients, not-for-profits, universities

11:16

that sort of have to reconfigure

11:18

how they think about what their

11:20

funding is going to be. And

11:22

then I guess on the other

11:25

side, there sort of foundations in

11:27

individual donors. who maybe are reconfiguring

11:29

who and where and what they're

11:31

giving to. Yeah, there's a great

11:33

reset that's going on, even amid

11:35

this lack of information. So I

11:37

know, especially at research universities, for

11:40

example, all those cuts you've heard

11:42

about it. National Institute of Health,

11:44

the National Science Foundation, those kinds

11:46

of things. Those are big drivers

11:48

of the funding to those kinds

11:50

of institutions. That might mean tuition

11:53

increases. They might not be able

11:55

to give as much student aid.

11:57

They're going to have to figure

11:59

out how they make their budgets.

12:01

Many of them have come to

12:03

very immediate halts. They're all reviewing

12:06

their spending. I don't think if

12:08

you're on a university campus, you

12:10

can spend... a dime now without

12:12

checking to be sure that it's

12:14

still okay to do that. And

12:16

some foundations have already stepped up

12:19

and say they're going to distribute

12:21

more funds. So the MacArthur Foundation

12:23

said it would increase the amount

12:25

it would distribute over the next

12:27

few years. Several other foundations are

12:29

doing it. Foundations are only required

12:32

to give 5% of their assets

12:34

every year. And so they'll ratchet

12:36

it up to sort of six

12:38

or seven percent. Some nonprofits are

12:40

saying, wait a minute, this is

12:42

a time of crisis, it needs

12:44

to be 10%, 15%. And there's

12:47

a precedent for that, in that

12:49

during COVID, we saw really tremendous

12:51

need and a very swift response

12:53

from many philanthropies, many big donors

12:55

to say, we get it, we

12:57

need to give more right now.

13:00

And so there's a giant call

13:02

from non-profits to say, we really

13:04

need you to start giving generously

13:06

right away. But I can imagine

13:08

too these donors sort of thinking,

13:10

well the need has grown for

13:13

places I've committed to. I can't

13:15

necessarily match all of those needs.

13:17

Right, right. And some donors also

13:19

want to stay out of the

13:21

political fray as much as possible.

13:23

So they're thinking about that. calculation

13:26

too and thinking about what's most

13:28

important to them. They are also

13:30

very concerned that they may become

13:32

targets so some of them are

13:34

giving anonymously. They're often pooling their

13:36

funds so that you know it

13:39

will come from a donor collaborative

13:41

a group of people rather than

13:43

any one individual that then could

13:45

be targeted. What have you seen

13:47

in corporate philanthropy efforts? Because we've

13:49

seen a lot of businesses seemingly

13:51

worried about how they look to

13:54

the administration, and I can imagine

13:56

that extends to their corporate philanthropy.

13:58

I think the biggest cuts that

14:00

we've seen are in diversity equity

14:02

and inclusion programs. So, you know,

14:04

a lot of corporations, everyone will

14:07

remember after George Floyd, almost every

14:09

company in America announced a commitment

14:11

to say that it was going

14:13

to do more, both through philanthropy.

14:15

programs and to support black-owned businesses,

14:17

most of those commitments have been

14:20

ratcheted back. Now you see some

14:22

examples of companies that say, uh-uh-uh,

14:24

we're not going to do that

14:26

work. We're going to keep our

14:28

programs, we're expanding, and we're going

14:30

to stay strong. But for the

14:33

most part, you know, you see

14:35

companies like Walmart have cut back

14:37

on some of their grants, some

14:39

of their commitments. And so I

14:41

think we're going to probably see

14:43

more of that happening quietly. Corporations

14:46

care deeply about their relationship with

14:48

the government. And so right now,

14:50

if they don't think the mood

14:52

is good for supporting some things

14:54

that are unpopular with the administration,

14:56

they're going to cut back. Stacey's

14:58

pulse check on the non-profit world

15:01

is pretty bracing, especially if there's

15:03

already a chilling effect on corporate

15:05

philanthropy and other donors. So what's

15:07

Elon Musk's role in all of

15:09

this? We'll talk about that after

15:11

the break. Stay with us. a

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to learn more. Before

17:23

the break, Chronicle of Philanthropy, CEO

17:25

Stacey Palmer, outlined how the nonprofit

17:27

world is reacting to the Trump

17:29

administration's cutback on grants and funding.

17:32

Now she talks about the role

17:34

of Elon Musk as a philanthropist

17:36

and in the government. Plus the

17:38

rise in green hushing, what makes

17:41

her most worried and most optimistic

17:43

about non-profits, and more. Let's dive

17:45

back in. I

17:48

have to ask you about Elon

17:50

Musk and sort of what do

17:52

folks think of him in the

17:54

philanthropy world? I mean, there is

17:56

a Gates Foundation, Bloomberg has a

17:58

foundation, Musk is not necessarily... known

18:01

for that and he's having kind

18:03

of a different impact. Yeah, well, first

18:05

of all, let's talk about him as

18:07

a philanthropist, but he is also, you

18:09

know, along with President Trump, said some

18:11

of the most destructive things about

18:14

non-profits themselves, you know, that they

18:16

are, you know, horrible organizations that

18:18

are just sleazy and just trying

18:20

to make money off of things

18:22

like homelessness. So there's been a

18:24

lot of non-profit bashing by both

18:26

Musk and Trump, and that's incredibly

18:28

damaging if they don't believe in

18:31

the value of these organizations. It's

18:33

going to cause damage in the

18:35

short term in terms of resources,

18:37

but if you were a young

18:39

person trying to decide where you

18:41

were going to have a career,

18:43

if you were motivated to want

18:46

to be a non-profit or philanthropy

18:48

worker, why would you do that

18:50

after somebody has made it sound

18:52

like it's the dirtiest profession ever

18:54

rather than a call to public

18:56

service? But both President Trump and

18:58

Elon Musk have had issues in

19:00

philanthropy. I think we all remember

19:03

that President Trump, you know, was

19:05

stripped of his ability to run

19:07

a foundation because he was not

19:09

doing a good job or an

19:11

ethical job of that. We learned

19:13

about that during the first Trump

19:15

administration. Elon Musk has said he's

19:18

putting money into his foundation, but

19:20

we can't find evidence of what

19:22

it's going very small amounts are.

19:24

But, you know, compared to what

19:26

other people with resources are giving,

19:28

you know, in terms of percentage

19:30

of assets or disclosing where the

19:32

money is going, we are not

19:35

able to track it. And I

19:37

have not seen any evidence that

19:39

very many of the other reporters

19:41

who are investigating are deeply trying

19:43

to figure out where do those

19:45

dollars go, given the extent of

19:47

wealth that he has certainly a

19:49

lot of concern that, especially, you

19:51

know, the cuts that we're being

19:54

made to. international development that, you

19:56

know, were really leading to deaths

19:58

of children. There is certainly a lot

20:00

of people saying, Elon Musk, you

20:02

could, you have the resources to

20:04

help stave that off. Do you

20:06

really want to be starving people

20:08

around the world? That's not a

20:10

good look. This harks back to

20:12

what you're saying at the beginning

20:15

about the philosophical confusion about what

20:17

the White House and Trump are

20:19

doing, because on the one hand,

20:21

government is inefficient, so we should

20:23

lay people off. They're not doing

20:25

a good enough job. And on

20:27

the other hand, the non-profits. are

20:29

not doing a good job that

20:31

that's wasteful also and it's like

20:33

who is good at what they're

20:36

doing or who is worthwhile? I

20:38

mean, is that what you're talking

20:40

about when you talk about the

20:42

confusion? The confusion is that there's

20:44

no real philosophy to say, you

20:46

know, we've evaluated this program and

20:48

it's not working, so we're going

20:50

to end this one, but this

20:52

one, but this one's doing great

20:54

work in education, let's say, and

20:57

we're going to end this one,

20:59

but this one's doing great work

21:01

in education, let's say, is this

21:03

program making a difference in the

21:05

short term, in the medium term?

21:07

in the long term, is it

21:09

really changing lives, or do we

21:11

need to change course, do something

21:13

differently, end it? How do we

21:16

think about that? So if government

21:18

wanted to invest in that, it

21:20

could say, that program's more effective

21:22

than something else, let's give there,

21:24

but that's what we're not seeing.

21:26

Yeah, and I guess in the

21:28

corporate and non-profit reactions in their

21:30

programs on tax on things like

21:32

DUI or environmental, how much of

21:34

that is a shift in semantics

21:37

in semantics? versus a shift in

21:39

mission? Like I've seen the term

21:41

green hushing rise, the sort of

21:43

the opposite of green washing, hiding

21:45

sustainability efforts, you know, renaming things

21:47

that had been DEI to be

21:49

something else. What about this as

21:51

semantics versus mission? Yeah, I think

21:53

that some, I know pretty much

21:55

every foundation we've talked to said

21:58

that they're, you know, looking at.

22:00

every word on their website and

22:02

seeing whether they're trigger words, just

22:04

as you, you know, you see

22:06

in the federal government, lawyers are

22:08

reviewing absolutely everything a foundation does

22:10

to make sure things are okay

22:12

in the absence of really clear

22:14

guidance from the administration. You can

22:16

imagine why that's taking a really

22:19

long time, but it is not

22:21

leading anybody to move quickly. When

22:23

I was listening to President Trump

22:25

address Congress and he was sort

22:27

of name checking through these different

22:29

programs and he was... really kind

22:31

of making fun of, right? Describing

22:33

the country of Lesotho as if

22:35

it were a joke, even though

22:38

it's home to two million people.

22:40

But there are plenty of small

22:42

programs here in the US that

22:44

find themselves at risk. I'm just

22:46

curious how like how they are

22:48

responding. The hyper-local organizations that don't

22:50

have the resources to really spend

22:52

time, they don't have the money

22:54

to spend on lawyers. They're responding

22:56

to immediate needs. They may not

22:59

have the best information about all

23:01

of the kinds of things that

23:03

are happening. It does mean sometimes

23:05

they just pull back entirely and

23:07

say, we can't do this, this

23:09

is going to get us in

23:11

trouble, we're going to cut those

23:13

programs, and we'll do only the

23:15

kinds of things that are really

23:17

safe. Other organizations will be scrappy

23:20

and courageous and do things. that

23:22

they believe that they need to

23:24

do, they probably will make some

23:26

language changes. I think they will

23:28

try to watch, make sure their

23:30

staffs are protected. They might want

23:32

to take a very low profile.

23:34

Let's say the groups that are

23:36

working with immigrants who are at

23:39

risk of being deported, you're going

23:41

to be very careful about how

23:43

you do something like that. So

23:45

organizations are responding. They definitely do

23:47

not have the resources to do

23:49

it in a way that's smooth

23:51

or any of the ways that

23:53

we would all want that. Some

23:55

of them will probably be wiped

23:57

out by some of this. Non-profits

24:00

did not come into this crisis

24:02

with a lot of reserves. hit

24:04

most of them very hard. There

24:06

was federal government money infused into

24:08

many organizations. All of that has

24:10

dried up. Inflation. has led to

24:12

amazing increases in all the amounts

24:14

that we pay, you know, for

24:16

more goods and services as individuals.

24:18

Well, a nonprofit food bank, for

24:21

example, is paying the same kind

24:23

of increase in dealing with it.

24:25

Nonprofits aren't on the strongest footing

24:27

even before all of this stuff

24:29

happened, and now some of them

24:31

will not be able to make

24:33

payroll. So those are the organizations

24:35

that I'm worried about that could

24:37

really just disappear in the next

24:39

few weeks. In the for-profit world,

24:42

there's always a lot of attention

24:44

on new organizations, right? New startups,

24:46

certainly right now around AI. Starting

24:48

a new non-profit initiative right now

24:50

must be impossible, right? I mean,

24:52

it's never easy, but has that

24:54

just come to a dead stop?

24:56

Often what does happen and it'll

24:58

be interesting to see what the

25:01

federal government workers who are laid

25:03

off do. They are very public

25:05

service oriented. They know some of

25:07

the kinds of things that are

25:09

needed to do good and they

25:11

may think that they have great

25:13

ideas that private philanthropy may want

25:15

to support. Let me try the

25:17

non-profit route rather than saying let

25:19

me go work for a non-profit

25:22

that does similar things I'm going

25:24

to go on my own. Those

25:26

organizations don't usually do all. that

25:28

well and they don't necessarily survive

25:30

but I wouldn't be surprised if

25:32

we see a wave of that

25:34

and it's possible a few of

25:36

them will have brilliant ideas that

25:38

solve problems in new ways but

25:40

right now I would not advise

25:43

anybody to start a nonprofit. Your

25:45

organization the Chronicle of Philosophy is

25:47

itself non-profit if I'm remembering that

25:49

right? Is that right? Correct. How

25:51

is your organization dealing with these

25:53

changes? Do you feel like their

25:55

risks? to you in all of

25:57

this? Yeah. One of the reasons

25:59

we became non-profit is we thought

26:02

it would enable us to do

26:04

a whole lot more innovation. There's

26:06

been tremendous growth in nonprofit journalism

26:08

organizations. And when I told my

26:10

staff that we were doing this,

26:12

I said, you know, this is

26:14

where all the cool kids are

26:16

now. And, you know, this gives

26:18

us an ability to really think

26:20

differently about how we do journalism

26:23

and how close we are to

26:25

our readership. Do we worry about

26:27

the same kinds of things our

26:29

readers are going through? Absolutely. I

26:31

think we feel more a sense

26:33

of purpose. Our newsroom has been...

26:35

reinvigorated by the challenge of covering

26:37

all these stories. I think they're

26:39

also exhausted, but they definitely need

26:41

to cover these things. And I

26:44

have talked to other nonprofit journalism

26:46

leaders who are concerned that this

26:48

administration's hostility to the press could

26:50

be a problem for tax-exempt status.

26:52

Organizations that cover the kinds of

26:54

issues that the administration doesn't like.

26:56

We've certainly seen with the Associated

26:58

Press that the unwillingness to talk

27:00

about the Gulf of America rather

27:03

than the Gulf of Mexico has

27:05

caused them problems. How long until

27:07

that trickles into the nonprofit journalism

27:09

organizations that have tax-exempt status? I

27:11

don't think any of us are

27:13

going to stop covering things the

27:15

way we cover them and that

27:17

we believe in what we do,

27:19

but we do know that there

27:21

are some risks. Is there any

27:24

time in history that you're looking

27:26

to as you cover this shifting

27:28

dynamic in the White House and

27:30

beyond? Or is this so unprecedented,

27:32

like, that there's really no place

27:34

to look? Yeah. Some of my

27:36

colleagues have asked me that very

27:38

question. Is this precedent, because we've

27:40

been covering this area, you know,

27:42

since 1988? And so they figured

27:45

I would be the person to

27:47

ask and to know. And at

27:49

first I said, oh, absolutely unprecedented.

27:51

And then I said, wait a

27:53

minute, I want to check my

27:55

facts and turn to the experts

27:57

who I would turn to as

27:59

a reporter and ask them that

28:01

question. The Reagan administration is the

28:03

one that comes... closest because there

28:06

were these very serious cutbacks and

28:08

there was this whole discussion about

28:10

what is the role of philanthropy

28:12

and what is the role of

28:14

nonprofits and how should we do

28:16

it. So we have asked experts

28:18

about what kinds of things they

28:20

have to say. I have two

28:22

conservatives and two liberals who were

28:25

involved at that moment who were

28:27

working in the nonprofit arena and

28:29

they all agreed it was unprecedented.

28:31

The reason they said that is,

28:33

is this haphazardness? And what one

28:35

said, who is, you know, a

28:37

very strong conservative, said, we've just

28:39

never seen something this nasty. The

28:41

anger, the kind of feeling that

28:43

none of this aid matters, it's

28:46

deeply disturbing to people, you know,

28:48

really of any ideology, because they

28:50

don't see that there is an

28:52

ideology. They want to talk about,

28:54

you know. What is the view

28:56

of government? There can be robust

28:58

debates on that, but this seems

29:00

unprecedented to the people who have

29:02

watched this over a long period,

29:04

which is making it hard to

29:07

have a playbook. And I think

29:09

that's why nonprofits and foundations are

29:11

struggling is, what do you do

29:13

when you can't look to history

29:15

and you have to figure out

29:17

all fresh what's happening and how

29:19

to come together? Philanthropy and the

29:21

work of non-profits, in a lot

29:23

of ways, it's inherently optimistic. Is

29:26

there anything that's making you optimistic

29:28

right now? I think as long

29:30

as we continue to have nonprofits

29:32

that are willing to work collectively

29:34

to make a difference, that does

29:36

make me optimistic. Because sometimes nonprofits

29:38

just worry about their own communities,

29:40

their own causes, their own coffers,

29:42

and don't take collective action. But

29:44

if they will come together and

29:47

continue to do that and say

29:49

strong, that could make a big

29:51

difference. Well, Stacey, this was great.

29:53

Thanks for doing it. Oh, thank

29:55

you for asking me. I enjoyed

29:57

the conversation. Listening to Stacey, I'm

29:59

concerned that a layer of our

30:01

civic... society might be being hollowed

30:03

out. If the nonprofit world can't

30:05

make up for lost government grants

30:08

by leaning on private philanthropy, if

30:10

nonprofit workers have become fearful for

30:12

their physical safety, it just makes

30:14

you wary. And with so many

30:16

historical institutions already under pressure, public

30:18

schools, houses of worship, community organizations,

30:20

this could be another blow to

30:22

the ties that bind Americans together.

30:24

I hope there's a plan in

30:26

the US administration or at local

30:29

and state government levels to address

30:31

that risk. I used to think employers

30:33

and companies might fill the gap, but

30:35

these days, I'm less sure. I know

30:38

I'm struggling to find my own optimism,

30:40

and I just hope that Stacey's right,

30:42

that those who are mission-driven to care

30:45

for others, keep the flame burning. I'm

30:47

Bob Safian. Thanks for Listening. The

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