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1:01

Log a Roddenberry Star Trek

1:03

Podcast Supplemental number seventy seven,

1:05

the one with Lisa playing.

1:16

Welcome. Into a supplemental episode of

1:18

Mission Log Roddenberry Star Trek Podcast

1:20

I'm John Champion and I'm Norman

1:22

Loud to each week on Mission

1:24

Log we examined in episode of

1:26

Star Trek for it's morals, meanings

1:28

and messages. But that is not

1:30

what we're doing today. Know it

1:32

is not today. We're looking back

1:34

on the first four seasons of

1:36

Star Trek Voyager with a very

1:38

special guest one who can help

1:41

us peek behind the scenes of

1:43

the production and help us all

1:45

to understand what made Voyager. Fly.

1:47

Least. The Clink was a writer and a

1:50

story editor for the series and it's first

1:52

four years and we are thrilled to have

1:54

her with us today to help us answer

1:56

some of our questions and questions from some

1:59

of our P. The on supporters. With.

2:02

Or without further ado Welcome to

2:04

show seventy be here! Thanks for

2:06

having make. Excellent whole.

2:08

We really appreciate your time and we

2:10

really appreciate your insights and just kind

2:12

of set the stage for everybody who's

2:15

listening to Day. Ah, you are telling

2:17

us that you joined the staff and

2:19

season two you stayed three seasons for

2:21

which is perfect for us because as

2:23

we go week by week an episode

2:26

order we have just finished season for

2:28

so we get to look back with

2:30

you were you get to look back

2:32

with us but it's race as the

2:35

case may be. Thanks I'm I wasn't

2:37

You are. Help us understand I

2:39

you came in during season Two

2:41

I had you been aware of

2:43

season one and what brought you

2:45

into the staff. Firstly, I got him

2:48

through a doorway that actually doesn't exist anymore.

2:50

As you know, a Star Trek is except

2:52

spec scripts from pretty much anybody who would

2:54

send them. And so I was one of

2:56

the thousands of people who sent and spec.

2:58

Script. This one Deep Space Nine was

3:00

on the air of wage or haven't started yet, but

3:03

I sent in a spec scripts and they invited me

3:05

to. Into pizza and it's. So

3:08

did that a few times and then

3:10

eventually sold them and a story that

3:13

became the episode Hippocratic Oath. And that

3:15

was I very first Tv credit ever.

3:17

And at that time Voyager had. Started

3:19

and so I was very aware of season

3:22

one and I was already a fan. I

3:24

really enjoyed it. And so

3:26

after Hippocratic Oath was finished, than Ira

3:28

Stephen bear past my script a Londonderry.

3:30

Taylor and said i know you're looking

3:33

for a staff writer, how bout of

3:35

be sick link into the since she

3:37

hired May I was very grateful. Can.

3:39

You tell sort of bit about

3:41

that. I am curious first of

3:43

all about the relationship that Juri

3:45

Taylor had really crafted Voyager and

3:47

really been put her stamp on

3:49

or from the beginning to respect

3:51

that relationship with her going into

3:53

the show and just curious are

3:56

kind of what the total difference

3:58

was for you going from. The

4:00

assign a little taste of the As Nine.

4:02

then into Voyager I was actually also a

4:04

Writers' Guild in and his face Nine for

4:07

six weeks. So I've been in the

4:09

writers him there for a while and and gotten

4:11

used to basically the feeling of that room which

4:13

is very nice x I gotta say I felt.

4:15

Really want them there. It is Deep

4:17

Space Nine and it was all guys

4:19

and me by it's a it didn't

4:21

feel. Like I was an outsider.

4:23

I mean I was the intern and saw

4:25

is obviously you know low man on the

4:28

totem pole bias. I felt very welcomes. And

4:30

also felt that way when I started

4:32

on Voyager Theory was really a mentor

4:35

to me and really watch out for

4:37

mean watch my back and made sure

4:39

that I was heard in in meetings

4:42

and I had ideas. you know that

4:44

I wasn't being talked over and that

4:46

sort of stance and Juri just really

4:49

set the standard. For what what a

4:51

show runner should be like? Nice Lisa

4:53

When you're out there looking for sending

4:55

out scripts, were you specifically looking for

4:57

getting into Star Trek or you just

4:59

trying to break into the industry in

5:01

general. For. Those trying to break

5:03

into the industry in general. but it's no

5:05

wonder so. Would accept snacks. And

5:08

I didn't have an agent at the time

5:10

in so really the only choice I had

5:12

was to send in a script. Has to

5:14

start track which I which I really like

5:16

him and. I was huge fan of

5:19

Next Generation Big Senate did say Nine,

5:21

so he wasn't just because. It was

5:23

my only choice by it's is that really was kind of

5:25

the best way to get in my foot in the door.

5:28

And if it's true with all shows

5:30

that are also have their So bible

5:32

they all have the guidelines of what

5:34

states and doesn't sit with them but

5:36

stories that are being told and tub

5:38

the bigger universe. The universe of the

5:40

show takes place and be of nine

5:42

very different. From. Voyager for yes

5:45

I did. Did you find either

5:47

of those kind of more confining

5:49

or or may be more creative

5:51

space for you to explore? Well.

5:56

I. Can say the least and either one of

5:58

them confining. and the nothing said. There's

6:00

so much to do the

6:03

summers universe. To explore in in

6:05

Star Trek. I mean, the only thing

6:07

that's confining about it is that there's been so much

6:09

Sartre. Done already. It's that we would be

6:11

in a story meeting and talking. About or we

6:13

could do this. No wait, they did that on

6:15

their next generation. Season Four or we

6:17

could do this. I know with that

6:20

happened in one of the movies equal

6:22

hasn't happened or files by it's I

6:24

know I had both of i'm very

6:27

Sorry Open very rich, creative side ground.

6:30

Not. I'm glad you brought that up because. Today.

6:34

If someone wanted to write for Star Trek

6:36

because there has been, I think a little

6:38

bit of a paradigm shift with how much

6:40

can be studied. If you will quote Unquote

6:42

studied from a critical standpoint out there and

6:44

social media and there's a lot of response

6:46

out there And social media you a regarding

6:49

today's Star Trek series that are being offered.

6:51

Did it help that it wasn't that prevalent

6:53

back then so he could just be free

6:55

to actually write scripts without worrying about checking

6:57

social media and seeing what the pulse or

6:59

the temperature is where the audience at the

7:01

time. I'm very glad to social

7:04

media did not exist. Pharmacist or Sandpiper

7:06

Ah ah I mean not that is

7:08

that. To say that it's a bad

7:10

thing. By it's I think it would

7:12

have made me very self conscious about

7:14

the response that I would possibly get

7:16

in on the next day from from

7:18

People are mine. I didn't

7:20

really have on for you to. I didn't

7:22

really have much access. To critical response and

7:25

we didn't have people who are doing

7:27

every single episode and so it was

7:29

kind of a nice so turds bubble

7:31

that I go to work and. I

7:34

I I do wonder though me

7:36

the so you you have a

7:38

problem because you don't have the

7:40

immediate daily our league response of

7:42

everybody giving their take on everything

7:44

but Sartre clans are still very

7:46

vocal and whether it's at conventions

7:48

a few times a year, people

7:50

coming together to discuss and argue

7:52

or people sending and letters of

7:54

the so I mean surely you

7:56

are getting some kind of response

7:58

or not just. Your episodes but

8:00

to the show as a whole, so

8:03

did that ever effect kind of your

8:05

creative impulses? Jesus think nope You know

8:07

what? I gotta put this out of

8:09

my head because and you to focus

8:11

on what's best and might take for

8:13

the story. Everly funded, easy

8:15

to focus on just what what I

8:17

was doing. I mean, same response he

8:19

would get. From both sides of a

8:21

new way. To get people who loves it and

8:24

people hated that and so you couldn't really

8:26

follow. What's. What people

8:28

were saying because. Everybody.

8:30

Had such a different opinion that wasn't

8:33

really a prevailing opinion that I heard

8:35

another job Voyager was pretty. Well received

8:37

in us by by critics and and

8:39

I. Guess professionals and that's I

8:41

think by the same community by

8:44

it's I really did not. It's

8:46

a try to seek out same

8:48

response. Or did fan response:

8:50

seek you out See it can mess

8:52

I want The latter is Martha because

8:54

you know what everything seems. Loomis we

8:57

had letters be added earnest. Probably not

8:59

as much of a dynamic right now

9:01

because you can. Send. An email

9:03

or you can send a for message or

9:05

a direct message word you know, social media,

9:07

Id all that kind of stuff you can

9:10

get directly to somebody you have. We will

9:12

see your message for better or worse. So.

9:15

That was it. Was it a

9:17

in scale? I guess to say

9:19

you're convention appearances or appearances in.professional

9:21

circle things like that like how

9:24

did you get feedback. Whether.

9:26

You wanted to or not. I

9:29

didn't really go to conventions and either

9:31

Gunderson since I left the way it's

9:33

or but at the time and with

9:36

we really didn't have time. I mean

9:38

writing for television is a full time

9:40

job and assisted to and twenty six

9:42

episodes of season. just kind of hard

9:44

to imagine these days. but I didn't

9:46

do convention appearances and did you really

9:49

get a lot of mail and then

9:51

I got a couple of letters birds

9:53

they were pretty positive and there's nobody.

9:55

Who wrote say that I was destroying the

9:57

franchise and a like tennis. Thanks a Senator!

10:00

The day when I would say that's

10:02

the downside to that. Know and nobody

10:04

would right? that's a definite says hyperbolic

10:06

Yes well I it so take us

10:08

back. You know if you come in

10:10

fresh to season to be already had

10:12

seen season one, you're following the story

10:14

all along and of kind of curious

10:16

in those early days last week's last

10:18

month's for you. Ah, when you're part

10:20

of the writing staff. What

10:23

is kind of the the sense of

10:25

the production lights? it is there a

10:28

focus on. okay we have this much.

10:30

Bigger arc. We're exploring

10:32

until we get back home. Maybe they're

10:34

these ideas are going to plant to

10:36

our to carry us for the next

10:38

several seasons. Or did it really feel

10:40

like says that the week to week

10:42

grind of oh we we have to

10:45

have an episode. We have to have

10:47

an alien have to have an adversary.

10:49

It affected his. Get us please from

10:51

step to stop the steps I'm just

10:53

curious kind of em with the feeling

10:55

was in the staff because you've gotta

10:57

have. A very unique

10:59

for Star Trek, you have

11:01

a series that has the

11:03

singular dieting idea behind the

11:06

whole premise. Will. Be you.

11:08

Are. Marching orders from Paramount were to make

11:10

it a stand alone. So every

11:13

episode. And we had the over

11:15

arching art but we didn't want to refer

11:17

to it too often and we didn't wanna

11:19

have like serialized elements and the the idea

11:22

was as because it's it's hand was a

11:24

new P n but we also syndication minds

11:26

and so the idea was that somebody in

11:29

syndication sybil to watch any given episodes and

11:31

know it was going on and not feel

11:33

like the had missed our to knock on

11:35

the backstory. So really the focus was one

11:38

episode at a time. By. The way

11:40

for anybody who is cussing the audio only

11:42

and you're not a member of her up

11:44

a tree on a not seeing any video

11:46

of this you're missing the most adorable cat

11:49

and Sms join the conversation and making himself

11:51

her so very at home. They're not yet.

11:53

This is lucky he loves him for whatever

11:55

reason. Eight on the ones in it's gotta

11:57

be part of it. Nice.

12:00

There's a little bit of miss.

12:02

Yes, yes, made out with Loki?

12:04

Yes, yeah. very good. There seems

12:06

to be a little bit of

12:08

a shift though, so as the

12:10

seasons go on and we have

12:13

just wrapped up, season for and

12:15

particularly enough finale for season for.

12:17

Okay, now the references are really

12:19

picking up, tying story elements together

12:21

from earlier in the season. Did

12:24

this directive from Paramount/u P and

12:26

start to loosen up? Or was

12:28

it that the writers. Slash Producers

12:30

and by that time your story editor

12:32

to sing lights? No, no, no, But

12:34

we we have to tell these bigger

12:36

stories. We hear theater. We we have

12:38

to use these great elements that we've

12:40

got. Well. As is it

12:42

the producers. Were. Pushing back on

12:44

the little bed? in? that's that, you know?

12:47

I mean, obviously it's we wanted to take

12:49

advantage of the things. That we had set

12:51

up. As he said in a we wanted to

12:53

carry over some elements. And it's just it's

12:55

more satisfying as a never pay us

12:57

you know for some date is set

12:59

up several episodes before he never for

13:01

big things like like two partners are

13:04

things that were really very serialize. we.

13:06

Had to get permission from paramount to do that

13:08

was. One of the things that

13:10

we've done in our mission log journey through.

13:12

Voyagers. Seasons one through four

13:15

so far as. We. Look

13:17

the evolution of can like the story and the

13:19

arc in total just to see like where the

13:21

characters are, where the carrots is going and I

13:23

think that it's I think it goes without saying.

13:26

That there was a huge tonal shift

13:29

between say season three and then losing

13:31

cats at the end and in season

13:33

four in establishing seven of nine and

13:35

bringing Harry so. What was kind

13:37

of? The. What was the

13:39

room like? What was the atmosphere like

13:41

when you had Jerry depart? You know

13:44

the production and not have her guiding

13:46

force for you or for the other

13:48

writers since as you said before, she

13:51

was such a a guiding force for

13:53

you as a writer, coming in and

13:55

helping you develop your career. So. Good

13:58

things start to feel a little

14:00

and hundred in a way. Oh

14:02

no, not at all. I mean everybody who

14:05

is there. We really worth. Cohesively.

14:07

As a unit am and it wasn't

14:10

Jury was not a strictly top down

14:12

and of show runner. I mean she

14:14

really left the room open for for

14:16

anybody to either The best idea would

14:19

win. In. A wasn't just you

14:21

know what? depending. On what your rank was

14:23

or it was your turn to talk

14:25

or anything like that, it was really

14:27

everybody was contributing to the entire series.

14:30

Is even episodes that I didn't write i

14:32

could tennessee where I had lost my fingerprints

14:34

on and and even and episodes. As I

14:36

wrote, I can see where the other

14:38

writers had had some influence and so.

14:40

As a even when Jerry just leave the room,

14:42

the rest of us are really use working together

14:45

as. A Team. Of I'm

14:47

I'm very curious about that actually

14:49

because we try to go to

14:51

lengths on mission log to are

14:53

we always highlight be story origin

14:55

and then if the writer of

14:57

the tell the players somebody different

14:59

in a what that process was

15:01

based on the records we have

15:03

but it is always very interesting

15:05

to see you know a story

15:07

made originate somewhere may have come

15:09

from somebody who's totally new. Using

15:11

that opens mission policy it's kind

15:13

of filters through different different eyeballs

15:16

and and different. Takes on an idea

15:18

and a guy is. It seems like

15:20

there are all of these moments where

15:22

you can kind of point to it

15:25

and only okay with the says be

15:27

suckling scripts but clearly there's some influence

15:29

from Brannon Braga, a German Osman, a

15:31

regular going to gets weird. Yeah, see

15:34

if you we're or vice versa might

15:36

be an idea that starts we're but

15:38

then you feel like it. it's finds

15:41

a little more focus and I'm just

15:43

curious. like what do you feel like

15:45

Your. Strengths. Words that

15:47

are the hallmarks of your

15:49

contributions and your scripts vs

15:51

maybe the style somebody else

15:53

has. Blessings and I wasn't

15:56

as much of a high concept percent of

15:58

innocent. Brandon was really good at that. I

16:00

bet I can look at a couple, but. I

16:03

think that my strengths. I. Felt like

16:05

was really how how would that such wish to sex.

16:07

The characters. Was. Really

16:09

kind of finding. Finding.

16:11

With the emotional connection would be and

16:14

making sure that it wasn't all just

16:16

about the weirdness or the space battles

16:18

of the alien for the week or

16:20

anything like that but really had to

16:22

decide our characters. ah Michael Piller when

16:25

he was with us with such would

16:27

always ask what is this episode about.

16:30

In are not what happens but really

16:32

what's the what's the heart of it and

16:34

I'll sit. That really did seriously and

16:36

tried to figure out what's. You.

16:39

Know which? what are we talking about us?

16:41

In. In current society In a

16:43

What? What current issues are we tackling

16:46

Or what emotional issues are we trying

16:48

to resolve? here? Saw. That there's

16:50

always more interesting to me. While

16:53

and and where do you feel like

16:55

you were successful thought I'd either with

16:58

you know topical issues or or character

17:00

issues because I do think you're part

17:02

of the fun of Voyager it is.

17:04

We do get a in Star Trek

17:06

in general we we do get high

17:08

concept science fiction or weird twist say

17:10

things like that and we also fallen

17:12

off with characters and we we got

17:15

some emotional truths out of them as

17:17

well. So yeah where where do you

17:19

think the the success was on that

17:21

for your your work. Wonders.

17:23

Episode the comes to mind his innocence our

17:25

to thought gets trapped on the planet with

17:27

went to kids. And of

17:30

forcing. You hear that he dies apprentice?

17:32

It descends. Goofy. You know, as leaders

17:34

and it's. Stolen. To Voc, did it

17:36

with a bunch of those brats and seats

17:38

in the sense that. Tommy it almost. But

17:40

what I really learned to explore was the

17:42

site that we knew that to life as

17:45

a father. And. That he had several children

17:47

back home. And. What was he like as a

17:49

father? And what are what? Are Vulcans like

17:51

as parents? And how do you

17:53

take emotional. You know children

17:55

and teach them logic. Answer.

17:58

That's really what kind of me. The

18:00

President thing to me is set to show a

18:02

little more of what to vipers like as a

18:04

father with his own children. By. The

18:06

Way for anybody who has forgotten of

18:09

course innocence, the Ip episode. With

18:11

the finger that launched a Thousand Means

18:13

method as as I know Voc pointing

18:15

right at you, right through the Tv

18:17

screen right at yes yes Exactly like

18:20

that you have I ever see says

18:22

yes to my finger that has been

18:24

amended and and I love it in

18:26

the advent of a lot of serialization

18:28

that was happening you know in that

18:30

era of Tv was it ever brought

18:32

up or disgust to create some of

18:34

these like art into many arts are

18:37

making sure that certain things tidy and

18:39

into a certain soft serialization because it's.

18:41

Either by plan a bike western us that

18:43

we found some that have worked together or

18:45

that's. Continue certain story lines

18:47

really well especially say with ah stick

18:50

a was was it hogan from the

18:52

Marquis he was eaten by a lizard

18:54

than we got stranded on the planet

18:56

you know the basics went to and

18:58

then later on in have a to

19:00

reptilian scientists. They. Found over

19:03

means of Hoggins body and

19:05

of extrapolated that. We. Were

19:07

from their species. X

19:10

amount of for know, hundreds of thousands

19:12

of years ago. So what's that? Was.

19:15

A pre planned good you are in. The

19:17

writer is like think about those kind of

19:19

details that helps to anchor certain parts of

19:21

the story line or were like hey remember

19:23

that guy that died on that plane is

19:25

less exciting and hence same it was more

19:27

about. Remember that guy on as about he

19:29

has them much as we'd seen a we

19:31

didn't we didn't plant foods with the knowledge

19:34

that we lives get back to them later.

19:36

At this is Not Hogan forgive me listeners

19:38

out there was no he most of it

19:40

and I have a probably for use are

19:42

probably some of the story lines can add

19:45

dovetail and and get. Mixtapes,

19:47

With you you have your name on

19:49

specific episodes if you really separate it

19:51

into being but like he was saying

19:53

and a you have a hand in

19:55

so many others as well so I

19:57

imagine you can kind of looked back

19:59

the series and regardless if your name

20:01

is on the credits you know where

20:04

you were and what you were doing.

20:06

Guess for that episode yes sir says

20:08

is that that's what satisfying to to

20:10

watch the entire series is that I

20:12

do feel really a part of the

20:14

whole so. Even if you

20:16

were after you were gone after

20:18

of season four, I made you

20:20

feel still feel like there are

20:22

elements that were partly yours. or

20:25

did you kind of turn that

20:27

off after you last. One thing

20:29

that was kind of started during my error

20:31

was a time in Milan, a relationship. Some.

20:34

You know? So they came forward.

20:36

You know? Blood Seaver and I

20:38

either. Had a hand in getting that

20:40

relationship started and of course that carried on

20:42

enough to the entire. Rest of the series.

20:45

How often do you revisit. Just.

20:47

To keep in touch with your memories of the

20:49

series and I got together so A John An

20:51

Eye on occasion were like well we don't really

20:53

listen to our past podcast but on you know

20:55

there there are a couple times where our listeners

20:57

on discord reminders hey you know is a really

20:59

good conversations you'll go back and like okay that

21:01

really was what we need that like create a

21:03

snippet for you know any type of promotion bites.

21:06

When. You have so much work, how do you

21:08

stay in touch with just the memory of

21:10

all that worth? Do you ever watched just

21:12

a handful of episodes or chests you know

21:14

read an email or t are just have

21:17

get nostalgic about it. I've been had he

21:19

process. that's. What's funny? Because it's It

21:21

continues to amaze me that people are slow

21:23

to send talking. About voyager a minute. This

21:25

a long time. He goes like twenty five

21:27

years ago now and has an what attracts

21:30

and sams. And so I have often

21:32

appeared on other people's podcasts in a

21:34

with with you Guys obviously. And as

21:36

appeared on the Delta Flyer his podcast

21:39

several times and then a couple of

21:41

other interviews and I tell her my

21:43

own podcast called the Track Spits Briefing

21:46

Room and which we talk about episodes

21:48

of Star Trek and occasionally of about

21:50

Voyager So I have had a lot

21:52

of opportunities in a to look back

21:55

into kind of remember in a my

21:57

part in it and the franchise's a

21:59

whole. By. The way that's a

22:01

perfect timing were would people find the

22:03

trucks press briefing room. Or you could

22:06

find it anywhere that you listen to podcasts

22:08

am I using of us and on Apple

22:10

on but is also on Spotify or really

22:12

any where you get your podcasts. To.

22:14

And you to hosting it with someone? Yes,

22:16

with Peterman Strawman. Excellent. Or

22:18

right pool and across you. I

22:20

mentioned the.flyers are great so of

22:22

care and Robbie do sour yeah

22:24

ribbed we we hear from people who

22:27

can a cross reference but we do

22:29

exploring ideas, morals, philosophy of Cetera

22:31

vs like quicker Robbie do during this

22:33

deep kind of behind the scenes you

22:36

know we were there. The ipo

22:38

var podcast south lot of good stuff

22:40

to listen to n tough votes. give

22:42

me says podcast to listen as

22:44

well. As think yeah. So.

22:47

How bout a a a question from

22:49

one of our listeners, sir? Okay, so

22:51

we have our discord member packs fed

22:53

a radical and this was specifically for

22:55

you Lisa in our discord chat and

22:58

he asks. And your season three episode

23:00

favorite Son Harry Kim has weird dreams

23:02

of his mother mashed up with Captain

23:04

Janeway. First, it's his mom saying she

23:06

suspending him from duty something seen we

23:08

had told him earlier in the episode.

23:10

Later on, it's Janeway telling him how

23:12

special he is. Something we might have

23:15

expected his mom to say to him.

23:17

I've noticed how this traps with the previous

23:19

seasons to thaw and which Michael Mckee and

23:21

clown care to remarks that Janeway, his quote

23:24

unquote like a dear old mother to Harry

23:26

Kim was this intentional either as an express

23:28

follow up to the thaw or just as

23:30

another case of lamp setting the surrogate mother

23:33

son relationship to the series create a fork

23:35

seem to be going forward seen we came

23:37

in the early seasons. Something I wish they

23:39

start with more than they did, I might

23:42

add. Thank you for your response in the

23:44

for all your contributions to Star Trek so

23:46

that is Hop. Bravo! For

23:48

you. Lisa. A success.

23:50

Will it was doesn't listen to the be kept in

23:53

mind in the writers. In that that was

23:55

the relationship between Harry and Janeway

23:57

either that he was candidate, the

23:59

young. Sandy you're inexperienced one and

24:01

that Janeway was kind of a

24:03

mother figure. two hands and so.

24:06

I like to see that we tests

24:08

on that several times and. I

24:11

think the risk that we didn't keep it going

24:13

indefinitely was that Harry kinda grew up. You

24:15

know he? he didn't really need a mother

24:17

anymore a know the first. Couple seasons he

24:20

did within as he got more experience

24:22

and more confidence. I think you've looked

24:24

less to Janeway as a mother. And

24:26

more as his captain. I

24:28

know that I have more questions about Harry

24:30

Kim and Norman. On for the you have

24:32

questions about Harry Kim. Ah, I want to

24:34

come back to the Up and I was

24:37

a good point recreate the cliffhanger right here

24:39

and tell people to come back and join

24:41

us right after a word from this week

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men's. Eyes

30:40

proportionate to the breakout We're talking

30:42

about Harry Kim and ah thank

30:44

you Packs for her eyes that

30:47

question to you send and we

30:49

read something not that long ago

30:51

about ah it was in the

30:53

killing game Ah, parts one and

30:55

two where. Harry had been and

30:57

I know this is not your episode by obviously you

30:59

were there in the room. You're part of the staff.

31:01

Everybody has a hand on it. There

31:03

was something that was brought up

31:06

about how Harry was not part

31:08

of the holodeck simulations. We focus

31:10

on the other characters who are

31:13

in their this and then it

31:15

was kind of left out that

31:17

Harrys actually out there on Voyager

31:20

getting bullied around buddies hero Jones

31:22

but then fights back and in

31:24

his own way. save the day

31:27

because he's got all this stuff

31:29

to do. And it seems like

31:31

according to sources such. As the

31:34

head deaths that air those really

31:36

being left out and and I

31:38

don't think it was by design

31:40

necessarily, but it just seemed like

31:42

okay. He's the least favorite to

31:44

write for and I'm. Really

31:47

focusing more here and Brandon and

31:49

Joe who have their names on

31:51

that episodes, but Cynic Hundred dawned

31:53

on them Week use an opportunity

31:56

to flesh out the story but

31:58

also elevate this character. It a

32:00

is the had troops and

32:02

be do you feel like

32:04

you know that these were.

32:07

Kind. Of the opportunities sometimes found

32:09

but sometimes miss with really developing

32:12

these characters to their full potential.

32:15

For. The was tricky because the characters that

32:17

were more interesting to write for where

32:19

the aliens. Of Forests and you know

32:21

whereof either to Valk and The

32:23

Liner and And and The Doctor

32:26

either because they had such specific

32:28

points of view and specific voices.

32:30

And. Sometimes I felt like that the

32:32

human characters. You know, like harry. Kim

32:35

it's Coty and Paris sometimes

32:37

got. A little overbooked because they

32:39

were kind of. Just.

32:42

Like like the audience. Kinda like like

32:44

every men. And they didn't have

32:46

as specific. A point of view?

32:48

Ah, at least. We.

32:50

We didn't develop. Them I think as well

32:53

as we develop the alien characters. Do.

32:55

You think that a is had a. Top. Down

32:57

saying is that to sort of

33:00

status quo Just because it's status

33:02

quo I'm here. I'm thinking about

33:04

other characters have a C D

33:06

S Nine very well known and

33:09

love for the complexity of those

33:11

characters. He can't do that Sarah

33:13

with everybody on Voyager but it

33:15

does seem like you know the

33:17

focus shifts and once it becomes

33:20

the Janeway seven year mates doctor

33:22

show some of the the complexity

33:24

in potential of those are the

33:26

characters. Gets lost. Yeah.

33:29

I think it was a little bit in response

33:31

to the Space Nine. That's and I know that

33:33

a lot of people felt like a gutsy. Dark.

33:36

And Dad speak got to. Morally

33:39

compromised. And that I

33:41

think with Voyager if they wanted us to get

33:43

back to. Starfleet ideals. And.

33:46

That's even though we had initially the

33:48

much he he are they became Starfleet.

33:50

Pretty quickly and so until

33:53

seven a van came along.

33:55

Everybody was pretty much Starfleet

33:57

and had those rules. And

33:59

mine. and kind of behave themselves when

34:01

a different things the seven is as she

34:04

didn't. And she was

34:06

being disrespectful ones and not at

34:08

all a rule follow or our

34:10

was made her character fun to

34:12

for more fun than than. The

34:14

Rule followers frankly. We've had a

34:16

lot of discussion about seven I think wouldn't what

34:18

was most refreshing about or care to coming in

34:20

his I didn't really find her as much as

34:23

as disrespectful as she was. On.

34:25

Polished. you know from a Starfleet standard she

34:27

doesn't have to declare from, she doesn't have

34:29

the training, he doesn't have the as though

34:32

the rigorous kind of thought conditioning that the

34:34

Starfleet you know junior grade seen all the

34:36

way up to a Harry Kim other way

34:38

up to a captive would have even having

34:41

to tell day and blot even snap to

34:43

because they have Starfleet formal training center and

34:45

I loved the bluntness about that because you're

34:48

out there. In. This unknown

34:50

space and she's like do you want

34:52

to get home or do you wanna.

34:55

You. Know as the kids say app around

34:57

and find out. He asked me now and

34:59

I like that he was as be efficient.

35:01

Get home The rest takes care of itself

35:03

after your missions accomplish because it's very goal

35:06

oriented. Since I like having her they're like

35:08

that. I think that some yeah wooden frame

35:10

it being disrespectful for me. I think it's

35:12

just. Honest. You're

35:15

honest without a filter. Be. As she

35:17

doesn't have that filter and it's interesting

35:19

seeing people, not people that Janeway character

35:21

and even some of the other characters

35:23

try and put the filter on her.

35:26

You. Know And and that's where I think

35:28

a lot of some some pretty robust

35:31

discussion and I put grub must be

35:33

quotes as innocent as I in the

35:35

fandom and obviously in our in our

35:37

podcast yes. In Athens as he didn't

35:39

and onesie to suspenseful a minute he didn't

35:41

actually have a lot of respect to the

35:43

senate finance and in that see did not

35:45

do. It she was told to stick as the

35:47

captain said cell and this is it. your item.

35:49

That's because you see had didn't have trainees, didn't

35:52

have the discipline of Starfleet people and that is

35:54

that. was kind of a fanboy. Still to happen

35:56

to sell. Yeah,

35:58

I mean I talked with. That a

36:00

a as seven comes into the

36:02

show. obviously it shakes up. Well,

36:05

everything. Efficacy? that's a

36:07

really does. But what? What was

36:10

that feeling? like? Both

36:12

from the you know production point

36:14

of view, but also just for

36:17

the writers and cells saying like,

36:19

okay, we have this opportunity now

36:21

with this character. Maybe we haven't

36:23

explored the rough edges around our

36:25

own. Crew. That we've gotten

36:27

a know for three seasons so now

36:29

we have this opportunity finally to do

36:31

that is there. Too.

36:33

Much emphasis on seven as are not enough.

36:36

Is it just right? I mean, it seems

36:38

like everybody gravitates toward Will. Now we have

36:40

the most interesting person here, which we didn't

36:42

have before. or maybe we did have before.

36:45

We did take advantage of that before. So

36:47

now let's do it for real. Will.

36:50

The character was. As

36:52

a support more complicated than that than the

36:54

rest of the characters were again because she

36:56

had us history as having. The board

36:58

and not wanting to become

37:01

human. You know, whereas most of

37:03

the other characters even what the non human

37:05

characters. Like the an Aids wanted to become

37:07

more human, but Seven did not. And

37:10

that was really something different. You know me,

37:12

Data wanted to be human, Oda wanted to

37:14

be more human and here we have this

37:16

character that know don't want to be more

37:18

human, want to be were bored. And

37:20

so that was kind of a difference. Take

37:23

That was a lot of fun to explore

37:25

and had to get Jerry wine. Lot of

37:27

credit for taking the role and is running

37:29

with that. I mean everything we gave her.

37:31

she just. Took very seriously

37:33

and really just put another level

37:35

on at. And. So I think

37:37

it was a combination of a really interesting. Character

37:40

and of really good

37:42

execution. I'm not a

37:44

question from our listeners. Lisa if you

37:47

are willing to entertain sold are now.

37:49

I ask you some of it earlier

37:51

on, but this is from Saarland and

37:53

Dad. Huge fan of Voyager. She actually

37:55

did a podcast out with her co

37:58

host for a podcast called to. The

38:00

running you may have her that Nanda

38:02

she asked. Do. You remember

38:04

what your thoughts about the tone of The

38:06

Writers' Room under Juri Taylor in Season three

38:09

vs after she stepped down as sooner and

38:11

season forth So I think she's asking you

38:13

personally how did you feel about that as

38:15

it was happening and because or anything else

38:18

you can share with us from and like

38:20

the behind the scenes prospectus like you know,

38:22

how are people feeling? How are you feeling.

38:25

What? Was going on at that time. Voters.

38:27

Stepped down as so runner, but some is still in the

38:30

realm. as this is so had

38:32

influence in in in terms of influence on

38:34

on the tone. Of the Browns and

38:36

she was still really protective of all

38:38

her writers in a making sure that's

38:40

either people were. it's. Insulting.

38:43

Each other or laughing at each other. Or

38:45

doing things it's that were disrespectful

38:47

to each other. And so she

38:49

was very much kept the room

38:52

i think, civil for sets it

38:54

said. okay. And I

38:56

am not. I don't know how. the

38:58

episode, how the. The room change when she

39:00

wasn't in it anymore. Except that's when I. Left

39:02

as well. but I know that she still had

39:04

a real strong. Influence on on the culture

39:07

of the Brown. It. Do think

39:09

there is beats be potential for a

39:11

to be uncivil just because you've got.

39:13

Personalities. Involved a lot of

39:16

creative people have plying their trade. Yes

39:18

sir, I mean there's yeah, I think.

39:20

There was a possibility and of course it

39:22

was. You know, other than Jerry and myself

39:24

with all guys area and so I think

39:26

that's the defensive tad this. Boys will

39:29

be boys attitude and ah,

39:31

thats it. Can. The jury kind of.

39:33

The. And the kept a lid on site I

39:36

think. That when she wasn't there I am

39:38

I imagine said that the lid was off.

39:42

Or that's Gates. Ah, I would do

39:44

well as his Norman. I I think

39:46

would be fun to just go through

39:48

a handful of episodes and oh yeah,

39:50

you know the audience laughter. Forgive us

39:52

a little bit because I don't remember

39:54

all of my notes from doing these

39:56

and Norman maybe you have a better

39:58

memory than I do. However, if

40:01

somebody is the Sabbath, somebody is

40:03

were really contentious and interesting, not

40:05

just because we got to pick

40:07

them apart in our show with

40:09

in every Thursday afternoon we welcome

40:11

our A Petri on Supporters and

40:13

Discord community to join us for

40:15

live conversations about that episode and

40:17

are sometimes they really push back

40:19

on a rotating send. Our sometimes

40:21

I just want to dig a

40:23

little bit deeper, but I'm looking

40:25

at some of these that just

40:27

kicked off some really interesting conversations.

40:29

A satellite. Retrospect was a real

40:31

challenge of for us to get

40:34

through far audience to get through

40:36

and it it led to some

40:38

really complicated ah discussions an hour

40:40

i and our mission log after

40:43

dark and for for those who

40:45

don't remember possibly ah that's the

40:47

episode or which Seven of Nine

40:50

is. I've the has the memory

40:52

of an assault from an arms

40:54

dealer coven very shady arms dealer

40:57

but they all are him and

40:59

die and. We're exploring false

41:01

memory. What I rarely

41:03

ever do when we put together

41:06

a discussion notes for Mission Log

41:08

is look at other people's takes

41:10

on an episode. Before we have

41:12

our conversation, we ride our notes

41:14

in a vacuum. It's our takes,

41:16

it's our vote, what we bring

41:18

to it and then get it

41:20

out there to the world for

41:22

everybody else discuss it back with

41:24

us. This is a rare exception

41:26

when I wanted to dig deep

41:28

into how that episode got put

41:30

together and please correct me if

41:32

I'm wrong. I have seen that

41:34

are you in. Bryan Fuller really alternated

41:37

in the structure of the show like

41:39

you would write something than he would

41:41

right over the next scene or the

41:43

next act. You cannot come back and

41:46

forth. We had as guiding idea about

41:48

it being about false memories and Norman

41:50

I think I can speak for both

41:52

of us. embassy get to that end

41:55

and we felt like there is this

41:57

disservice done to Seven in the risk

41:59

that she's gonna left on our own.

42:01

Will say a guess what? Your memories

42:04

were false. Too. Bad Sia Now

42:06

you feel bad for apartments so

42:08

please help us We say said

42:10

have been a light on this

42:12

episode and ah maybe in context

42:14

then but I think and twenty

42:16

twenty four there's a different context

42:18

it's there's a very different contact

42:20

say. I have to admit they

42:22

the episode did not a it's

42:24

very well now. The. Intention of

42:27

course was to talk about false

42:29

memories and specifically recovered memories and

42:31

is what was going on at

42:33

the time was like the Mcmartin

42:36

school and case in which in

42:38

a teachers were accused is all

42:40

kinds of horrible things by the

42:42

kids who were basically. Pluto.

42:45

I've read to remember things

42:47

that had never happens. And.

42:50

One episode, ideas that Ensenada of Satanic

42:52

panic set up an account. I can

42:54

I? Ah yes, on. An awesome that

42:56

Briner. And nice and very interesting. And.

42:59

So that's what we wanted. To set up. And.

43:02

We wanted to keep it ambiguous

43:04

the whole time including of the

43:06

yes we. We don't have anybody

43:08

say this is what really happened.

43:11

Blizzard that Seven was right or that she

43:13

was wrong. On. And

43:16

so. The

43:18

whole idea is you can never now. We're.

43:20

Really happened to me? Unless you were there. unless you

43:22

are part of that. Ah, and evil.

43:24

The seven she was. They're supposed. Part of

43:27

it, but her memories could have been distorted.

43:29

We don't know. And.

43:32

That. Was that was really the whole

43:34

idea? Again, looking back I think

43:36

that it it. Baby Seven was

43:38

not the best character. To. Do that

43:41

with because he had the whole. Boards history and she

43:43

had all these other memories and other person

43:45

for soon as like in her mind and

43:47

says she was kind of a special character.

43:49

I think that met it might have been

43:51

more interesting to do with one of the

43:53

regular human characters you know to have its

43:55

or even in like new X were you

43:57

know. Harry Kim or somebody like that.

44:00

Yeah, Who. Might. Be

44:02

a little more gullible. Are

44:05

a little more suggestible. You.

44:07

Know said, and seven and that

44:09

would really kind of. I

44:12

think try it and closer to

44:14

tour inspiration. Of what what children are

44:16

like going through this process. Is.

44:19

It was difficult in that episode

44:21

as he yeah be you set

44:23

a perfectly because you've got seven

44:25

of mine who is already coming

44:27

from a place of trauma rights

44:29

and complicated by all these issues

44:31

of identity and police in this

44:33

new world that seasons plus the

44:35

technological component I mean as if

44:37

you episodes later that she says

44:39

he is and I direct memory

44:41

with of when or where was

44:44

that ask with their he and

44:46

House of but that it's an

44:48

interesting idea to explore. Yes

44:50

indeed that is imperfect. Are there

44:52

is a flaw in the system

44:54

there yet when it comes to

44:56

her perception of herself and and

44:59

her abilities? But yeah at there

45:01

is this real to kind of

45:03

heartbreak at the end of episode

45:05

scene where it left her add

45:07

what we kept saying was whoa

45:10

Okay where were the follow up

45:12

scenes? Where are they get her

45:14

some hell of a ha ha

45:16

ha Yeah. Yeah

45:18

I or the doctor Eric you know

45:20

he second guessing you know the his

45:22

program to become the counselor and right

45:24

was this also part of the issue

45:26

You now he I hear that we

45:28

just made that the doctor was misguided

45:30

in that he got an idea in

45:32

his head. You know you. Were attacked

45:35

and and and made her.

45:37

Believe. It more and again this is

45:40

sort of the of the influence of

45:42

psychologist would have on Nina trying to

45:44

retrieve a repressed memory. That.

45:46

Well as and it is interesting

45:48

that the doctor has is very

45:50

human trait of this confirmation bias

45:52

of okay so here's the thing

45:54

that I already think is the

45:56

answer to the problem so I'm

45:58

just going to me the evidence

46:01

fit. Yeah. The. Thing that I

46:03

want to be true Exactly Yeah now

46:05

Norman my feel like I had loot.

46:07

Lisa you paid it us here by

46:09

saying what if we did that to

46:11

Harry Kim. Okay

46:14

and then and then I immediately

46:16

go to Favorite Son. Yeah and

46:18

I think light, oh there's there's

46:20

are gullible Harry Kim has ever.

46:25

Had Norman take it away from what I

46:27

like about the suggestion there with putting carry

46:29

and or another character and seven position would

46:31

have given. I think the story just

46:33

a little bit more going on the

46:36

way Back to your retrospect. Ah, been

46:38

giving the story maybe a little bit

46:40

more believability in world because you know

46:43

seven So strong and she has again

46:45

Leo. She has so many of these

46:47

abilities that it's I think it sometimes

46:50

it's is difficult to put those aside

46:52

in in favor of giving her vulnerabilities

46:54

bites. I'm wondering if you even suggested

46:57

putting another character in her place? Was

46:59

there some type of either a recommendation

47:01

or. Odds are Note saying you have

47:04

to put jerry and x amount of

47:06

episodes based on contractual obligations. Because.

47:09

He did fill out a lot of season

47:11

four and that's one of the things were

47:13

up in Mission Why where we've discussed. You've.

47:16

Taken all these characters from season one through three

47:18

and you've brought them to a really good place.

47:21

Character arc wise, but we felt that

47:23

there has been a setback from some

47:25

of these characters because you had to.

47:28

Basically. Catch Up, Seven Story and

47:30

her involvement with the season and twenty

47:32

six episodes. reason behind characters like Harry,

47:35

Tom, Tom and Blonde It's Relationship which

47:37

kind of with a hurry up and

47:39

wait and then hurry up again at

47:41

the end you know So. Was

47:44

that influenced by. Something. That

47:46

was out of your control. out of the writers' room control.

47:49

Over there without the order to they do have

47:51

to feature seven and in some of. The. Episodes.

47:53

I mean we had all the

47:55

characters in every single episode. Ends:

47:57

In terms of got more story.

48:00

Is everything that sevens character was

48:02

kind of a like a shiny

48:04

new toy to play with inserted

48:06

on. That's why I think she tends to get. More

48:08

of the stories in episode four.

48:11

Of us are season four. Am,

48:13

but I don't recall in the room that

48:15

we talked about, which. Characters should should have

48:18

this story. I think it might have

48:20

come up as a seven story to

48:22

begin with and we didn't Really I

48:24

think cast around for from should this

48:27

be. I'm

48:29

really, I'm always curious about moments like

48:31

that because you'd norman some. If you

48:33

and I do have much to the

48:35

chagrin of her audience, know even we

48:37

get out the are we gonna the

48:40

writers hot every now and then because

48:42

we have the benefits of twenty five

48:44

years of hindsight and we can say

48:46

okay, here's what we're getting out of

48:48

the episode Bots. Did

48:50

the writers' room have a discussion about

48:52

this? Like this particular angle Or what

48:54

would happen if you dropped in a

48:56

line that. Did. This instead, you

48:58

know, and that that's the kind of thing

49:00

that happens a lot, So I am very

49:02

curious about. You. Being

49:04

in the room at the time. okay,

49:07

something like that comes up and you

49:09

have an idea in your head and

49:11

say wait a minute This is a

49:14

story about so and so here's how

49:16

it needs to happen. Somebody else comes

49:18

along with the idea of like know

49:21

This story is actually about this character

49:23

and here's how it needs.to unfold. I

49:25

mean he your you said earlier in

49:28

our Andrew interview about how. The

49:30

good ideas? Rise of the top yes, and

49:32

and those of the ideas we go with.

49:35

But. Was it

49:37

and we be. I'm not digging

49:39

for dirt, your I'm just curious

49:41

creative ways. I would eat it.

49:43

Was it. Contentious. When

49:45

those ideas start get kicked around

49:47

are there? are there places you

49:49

can look at? Go? You know

49:51

what? We made the wrong decision

49:53

there. May. Be

49:55

felt like the right decision at the

49:58

time, but. Oh. The

50:00

only we had changed the thing you know,

50:02

as if only we had focus the story

50:04

and this way it instead of what we

50:06

did. I. Have to say I don't

50:08

really look back like that and yeah yeah I

50:10

mean I really look back at at the we

50:13

We actually did it. And how effective

50:15

was it? The way that we choose to

50:17

to do it? I'm. I'm.

50:19

In one episode that I can remember that we actually did

50:21

talk about. Which character should just be

50:24

about was whatever. We

50:26

knew we wanted to do a plan for. Episodes.

50:29

And. What we knew that doing? what about

50:31

to vibe kind of. the. You know,

50:33

expected and. Probably. Not

50:35

all that different than. The original a much

50:37

time episodes so we hunted thought well

50:40

what wouldn't. Put. It happened

50:42

to somebody else In a given that

50:44

Vulcans have the psychic you know ability

50:46

than they can don't mind meld and

50:48

that kind of thanks. But he

50:50

said if you know insects somebody

50:52

else with pon farr. And

50:54

we talked about several characters acid

50:57

as and then settled on Bomb

50:59

on Us because she already had

51:01

that. That. Dental balance

51:03

of trying to kind of balance.

51:05

For playing on her human sides and.

51:08

It seem like it might not take

51:10

all that much of a serve to

51:12

kind of pusher over into. The more cling

51:14

on side which we haven't really explored before. right?

51:17

Or I'm going to say right now that that's or would not

51:19

have worked with Harry Kim now. A

51:22

Ah Ja Das tried to feed through.

51:24

who else? Yeah, Mississippi is a hoax.

51:27

Interesting that that that was a discussion

51:29

but going back with some of his

51:31

because he brought in for it. You

51:34

know, and like Oliver and you have

51:36

this really great growing secondary cast much

51:38

like Deep Space Nine had for a

51:41

cat Baxter We Love Baxter by the

51:43

Baxter S on arrest or you had

51:45

a Sam Wildman and. Of course

51:47

you know, know me while themselves. Ah.

51:50

Telcel. A bit more about some.

51:53

Would you have liked to have seen them

51:55

incorporated more? Are you all of the all

51:57

these secondary characters that we saw from time

51:59

to time and actually were named that actually

52:02

have had bit lines here and there scissors

52:04

or was something that just never really kind

52:06

of presented itself as an opportunity to write

52:08

for these characters? Over something Opportunity Bites.

52:11

I think we had enough regular characters

52:13

service that we didn't feel the need

52:15

to add. More. You

52:18

know that scene of characters

52:20

like Naomi? Wilde men? We

52:22

really used. Her to kind

52:24

of illuminates or regular characters to

52:26

really kind of So Neil acts

52:28

and a show as seven it

52:30

a different. Lights as the

52:32

didn't through that relationship on

52:34

and. So I don't think we really

52:36

felt like we wanted to elevates. Anymore

52:39

of the secondary characters into interstellar

52:41

regulars because we had enough regular

52:43

to deal with. I

52:47

have a to go back again and

52:49

pick through. Some of these are our

52:51

episodes: Norman I I Still any time

52:53

that you want to talk about favorite

52:56

son or so we've me go right

52:58

ahead. But I am very curious about

53:00

our Sacred Ground Room with which I

53:02

have earmarked years, chain ways, spiritual journey

53:04

yes and I thought that that was

53:07

such. A A

53:09

It was an interesting and challenging

53:11

episode to was because it there

53:13

is a lot but as sort

53:16

of ah, obfuscated about what exactly

53:18

is happening here and and how

53:21

this affects Janeway in the end,

53:23

especially somebody who comes from such

53:25

a scientifically minded background. Was

53:28

that your idea to explore? This part

53:30

of her was had an idea that

53:32

to sort of was handed to you

53:34

in the new fleshed out taught us

53:36

all the bits through that and. What

53:39

that did to that character? I

53:41

believe the idea came in as a pets. Kids.

53:43

It's essentially the have seen with on a

53:45

Spiritual Journey. Think that it was

53:48

originally tired more to to coating and

53:50

his heritage and chamber. Kind. Of exploring

53:52

through him by it's we

53:54

decided to to make it

53:56

more. More for

53:58

individual journey. And.

54:01

It was great. I really. Liked reading that

54:03

episode because it was kind of me.

54:05

I mean, I'm the skeptic. I'm the

54:07

scientist or not. The sides. But those

54:09

a believer in science and. Yeah,

54:12

and I'm an atheist and so

54:14

to take Janeway on that journey

54:16

was really. Was. Really interesting

54:19

for me is because I got to think

54:21

what would convince me. That would

54:23

make me doubt in my own

54:25

beliefs and. Putting Janeway see that

54:27

same thing. And. So I

54:29

really enjoyed reading that episode. I was really happy with the

54:31

with it came out. Where do you

54:34

think that lands chain where things

54:36

as interesting. as a nonbeliever who

54:38

wrote this spiritual journey story for

54:40

as someone whose whose beliefs we

54:42

really haven't explored in the episode

54:44

just know the she is scientifically

54:46

minded. that's that's really the extent

54:48

of it and and kind of

54:51

has this a little bit of

54:53

a it's a sort of a

54:55

cursory interest in to Coattails spirits

54:57

of all backgrounds. Yeah, Whitlam, where

54:59

do you feed? Team. They.

55:02

Lands. And that this is

55:04

kind of come away from some makes you

55:06

can't explain. Therefore, she's a little. I

55:09

don't know. Seek and/interested/curious

55:11

and then it. Sort.

55:13

Of fades away from memory. Further with subjects

55:15

about planet the I could get a thrill.

55:18

I like to think that it it opened her mind a

55:20

little bit. Ah, okay, that's he

55:22

does. He tells the doctor in a

55:24

that's a very good scientific explanation. Was.

55:27

Kind of implies that maybe there's another

55:29

explanation. And. That

55:31

she doesn't have. Any not that he

55:33

spews. You. Know what she thinks that is,

55:36

but. I think that at

55:38

least are open to. Alternatives in a way

55:40

that maybe she wasn't before. Fair.

55:44

So I have a a my surfaces controversial

55:46

question but I'm going ask it anyway because

55:48

do it through an asset. That is why

55:50

you hear the well I think that new

55:53

any creative like looking back at once body

55:55

of works. As you note I wish we

55:57

could have done this better. I wish with

55:59

of yeah. Unity to do this little

56:01

bit differently. I think the one thing for

56:03

me that some. That I

56:05

focused on in probably criticized to live

56:07

too hard during the course of Mister

56:09

Mod. Is how to code

56:11

A has been handled? Yeah cause I think

56:14

that. This is

56:16

as far as I know, the

56:18

first opportunity that we've seen a

56:20

first people's character represented in Star

56:22

Trek to any degree. Especially

56:25

on the bridge and especially second

56:27

in command. Looking back at what happened

56:29

with. Someone. Who

56:31

Will Not Be Named You know and their

56:33

influence on this character or their advice on

56:35

his character. Was. There a time,

56:38

word. The. Writers or the show runners

56:40

could have pivoted and said we need to get

56:42

his carrots or online or by that time was

56:44

that already too late? On

56:47

the as I said did. Have

56:49

one of the characters were nuns. human

56:51

characters. I think we're we're just generally.

56:53

More interesting to explore. And

56:55

I think putting hurting particular. We

56:58

didn't want to fall into the trap of. Of

57:00

have a his spirituality define the whole

57:02

character. You know that yeah with them

57:04

is an element of his character and

57:06

I think that we did so it

57:08

as an element but we didn't want

57:10

to have every single story about. Him

57:13

be a balance his his heritage

57:15

or his beliefs and. In a

57:17

we wanted to get some stories. That's. says.

57:19

Sit him being capable officer. Or

57:21

been smarts and you know, outsmarted bad

57:24

guys and that sort of thanks and

57:26

his relationship. With Janeway and his relationship

57:28

with The In A Balloon or some of

57:30

the other crew members ah, I think we

57:32

just didn't want to get him to. Pigeonholed.

57:35

Because. Some of my biggest praised for to cut

57:38

his characters like when he when he becomes the

57:40

officer I love when it becomes the officer he

57:42

has his heart, conversations with Milan as soon as

57:44

he has and and when he is true to

57:46

form with Janeway when he says you know what,

57:48

this is why I'm here. If you like my

57:51

advice, it's fine. If you don't that's fine but

57:53

you're gonna hear my advice. Would you like it

57:55

or not? Exactly exactly. I love it. I love

57:57

it when not he was written that way. it's.

58:00

I think that when we saw Tattoo, there

58:02

was something really robust about the background of

58:04

that character and his history or his people's

58:06

history mean have been linked to the Delta

58:09

Quadrant Him I just told somewhere along the

58:11

line that gets picked up in some thread

58:13

somewhere. Just putting it out

58:15

there. Yes, Yes! No, as I

58:18

said we were, You're not encouraged to pick

58:20

up threads that would have made like the

58:22

second episode hard to watch that haven't. Seen

58:24

the first one you know them in. Right?

58:27

or it kind of. going back to

58:30

this the the mechanics of making the

58:32

show with the one thing we didn't

58:34

touch on earlier than I wanted to

58:36

was of for audience for everybody's that

58:39

of case and you went from staff

58:41

writer to story editor to executive story

58:43

at a Turkey. Just educate us a

58:46

little bit about what your duties were

58:48

the changed how they expanded how that

58:50

changes your perspective and your ah you

58:53

are. Kind. Of input on the show.

58:55

Will. Be understood. The petals That.

58:57

Really? Mean much as as I guess

59:00

is that is there a pay grade

59:02

and yeah indication that you know you've

59:04

been there for two or three years

59:06

As a be that the staff writer

59:08

is obviously the entry level. Position

59:10

in a you have been there are less than

59:12

a year in a Story editor means you been

59:14

there for two years. Executive Story Editor You've been

59:16

there for three years and as a message to

59:18

get in and. Have to pay bump with each

59:20

one. In terms of what I my actual

59:22

duties where they were the same. Nothing

59:26

as I gained more experience I probably

59:28

was. Was. More. I used

59:30

to rewrites other people and rewrites

59:32

and freelancers and that sorta thing,

59:34

but that was just because I

59:36

gained more. Experience on a cell. And.

59:39

Not because it was axel like new duty that

59:41

came with a new title. Gotcha

59:44

to see John be axed. Now that

59:46

the you cannot explain away. Harry as

59:48

Executive Ensign. Thought

59:50

that is executive store and sense.

59:52

ah ah ah he says of

59:54

assailants and isn't a bit of

59:57

there's no no room for growth

59:59

for that guy. No no no

1:00:01

met yeah sorry sorry Gareth. He

1:00:03

said that that isn't too bad.

1:00:05

Mads I went ahead on a

1:00:07

couple of other episodes here and

1:00:09

that it that I want to

1:00:11

pivot to some other things you

1:00:13

did post Voyager work and for

1:00:15

it with Voyager Also butts just

1:00:17

a a couple of can like

1:00:19

off the wall weird are back

1:00:22

to back for you on your

1:00:24

resume. Revulsion and scientific method news

1:00:26

which side don't necessarily he's if

1:00:28

revolts and in particular doesn't necessarily.

1:00:30

Seem to fall in line with

1:00:32

some of the other stories you've

1:00:34

written here. You've got a ah

1:00:36

ah homicidal holograms. what in the

1:00:38

world brought that about? I love

1:00:41

by though he what that does.

1:00:43

forcing the inmates to examine his

1:00:45

own character and his own position

1:00:47

in this hierarchy and his relationship

1:00:49

to humans were to naturally occurring

1:00:51

by forms Rank Sally census if

1:00:53

I get a walk us through

1:00:56

that one a little bit. Well.

1:00:58

I think that it it started so

1:01:00

it didn't start with the the other

1:01:02

hologram thing. Homicidal. It

1:01:05

started with the idea of is what

1:01:07

if the doctor met another being like

1:01:09

himself. In what he

1:01:11

met another essentially hologram in

1:01:14

intelligent hologram. What would

1:01:16

that? Do. For him as a character

1:01:18

and as you know it as a person. You

1:01:20

know, how would yet, how would he reflects? You

1:01:23

know what what this other care to as

1:01:25

a balanced. And the idea that the

1:01:27

other the other hologram was issued a distress

1:01:29

call you know we knew that he would

1:01:31

be the one that would say we have

1:01:33

to go help this. Guy immediately And

1:01:35

you know, because again, he'd be.

1:01:37

Was sealed of kinship with this other character.

1:01:40

And that's really where the story started. To.

1:01:44

Listen earning parallel story was that was with

1:01:46

Neil a semi other to Lax in his

1:01:48

friend that he found on the space station

1:01:50

where. Neil. It's his

1:01:52

journey has taken him to a certain place

1:01:54

and a certain prominence in his friends. Like

1:01:57

I know you, price on Amazon and any

1:01:59

kind of late. Hadn't little bit

1:02:01

of aspersion analysis character because

1:02:03

they're similar by. Being. In

1:02:05

Starfleet has allow them to become. Different.

1:02:07

Become better. Rain. But then you

1:02:10

check in at home you're like now you're

1:02:12

not. A.

1:02:15

Minute of. The. Yeah it is a the

1:02:17

guess hologram. Of even worse right I

1:02:19

did a fantastic job playing him. he was essentially

1:02:22

that the it on the dark verse and of

1:02:24

you know what if the and a the inmates

1:02:26

have been really mistreated. You know

1:02:28

what if the crew heads had to send him

1:02:30

to to do this is a nasty jobs. That

1:02:32

nobody else wanted to do and give them

1:02:35

know respects and know humanity could are doctor

1:02:37

have turned out the same way and then

1:02:39

I you did the teleplay for a scientific

1:02:41

method. I I forgot who got this story

1:02:44

credit. I think that was my story. actually

1:02:46

I don't think we. Oh yeah. Oh.

1:02:48

Cats are it. So did you

1:02:51

have in your mind views of

1:02:53

bizarre almost of Victorians torture devices

1:02:55

attached to the crew faster every

1:02:58

yeah no. I I didn't have

1:03:00

any input in in specifically. What

1:03:02

the devices like like? I thought I was a great.

1:03:04

Actually I thought it was really a lot of fun.

1:03:07

I mean the idea was. It

1:03:09

initially came from you know, Elina

1:03:11

based at abductees either that was

1:03:13

an experimenter by aliens, experimented on

1:03:16

by aliens and I thought, well,

1:03:18

what have we were essentially. Abducted

1:03:20

by aliens you know, and we

1:03:22

were experimented. On and we were. You

1:03:24

know, the rats being read? A run through

1:03:27

the maze and that's only within that story.

1:03:29

Came from. Nice. For

1:03:32

the end of your time with

1:03:35

Voyager a little side project comes

1:03:37

up. something that I was very

1:03:39

fond of and that was the

1:03:41

you. Wrote Borg Invasion

1:03:43

for a D for Star Trek

1:03:45

The Experience and I'm just very

1:03:47

curious Our first well as a

1:03:49

Star Trek fan but as he

1:03:51

seemed experience fans tell subtle about

1:03:53

you know same or different from

1:03:55

writing for the Tv series if

1:03:57

you already were a part of.

1:04:00

Obama was a little difference

1:04:02

obviously to the focus was

1:04:04

really on the audience experience

1:04:06

more than telling a coherent.

1:04:08

Story in a way. I mean obviously

1:04:10

woman is do both and I think

1:04:13

we did both. But really, the emphasis

1:04:15

was on how do we make use

1:04:17

of the for the aspect of it.

1:04:19

You know what's going on, look cool

1:04:21

and three days and what's gonna be

1:04:23

in a set off? their little bumpy

1:04:25

things at noon you put people on

1:04:27

the back in time for. I mean.

1:04:29

I remember we we had a conversation about how

1:04:32

badly. Can. The scare people into before we end

1:04:34

up giving somebody hard to. The

1:04:36

South Africa in L A because. It's

1:04:39

it's I think it is a pretty creepy moment. when

1:04:41

did the Borg Queen like suits after tentacles and then

1:04:43

and and then it you feel it's you know going

1:04:45

into your back To that I was some. It's fun

1:04:47

to rights. Because of course that the budget was

1:04:50

a little bit different in that it was really

1:04:52

eat it just as. One scene. You.

1:04:54

Know and the any kind. Of this one backdrop.

1:04:57

And. So we could have all different kinds of

1:04:59

Borg. It's a good have you like avian

1:05:01

drones and you know, flying drones and we

1:05:03

could have all kinds of neat stuff that

1:05:05

we never really. Got to do on the cell. At

1:05:09

did you consult with I am you must

1:05:11

have with the and of theme park and

1:05:13

attraction designers to kind of figure okay how

1:05:15

do I moved the script to sit? The

1:05:17

technology guess because that's already in place but

1:05:20

as it did you go other places you

1:05:22

felt like who able to says an effective

1:05:24

use of this. Here's what we'll do care

1:05:26

a whit we did ticket sale trap ah

1:05:29

oh just a couple such the Edge of

1:05:31

the Producers went to see and I think

1:05:33

it's soaring over America. In. Oh

1:05:35

sure. Am miss our ass or. Yeah.

1:05:37

Sort of a California than they really some sort

1:05:39

of the world right down down here at the

1:05:41

To Zoom I guess. It isn't land around

1:05:44

and will it to bugs life our

1:05:46

town of a similar effect with said.

1:05:48

Visited the bugs that you feel

1:05:50

and yeah we. Did that and we

1:05:52

went on the back to the Future Ride

1:05:54

and Start tours. So

1:05:57

we we definitely. That. Inspiration

1:05:59

from from. There's other riots.

1:06:02

Yet. All the good ones yes was

1:06:04

good and then of ultimately what

1:06:06

led you to part ways with

1:06:08

voyager. What? Was the

1:06:10

only thing I had done until that point

1:06:12

and and I really felt like I wanted

1:06:14

to brand salads and and see what else

1:06:17

I could. Do and what else is out there. And

1:06:19

if you have done many other interesting

1:06:22

projects, do you feel like oh, but

1:06:24

wait, if I'd stayed at Voyager and

1:06:26

it went it's Seven Seasons. maybe I

1:06:28

could have done this system. Maybe I

1:06:30

could have tried out this other things

1:06:32

for that crew or or you just

1:06:34

hundred done and glad to. I'm glad

1:06:36

to move on. I

1:06:38

didn't really seem like a handy unfinished business.

1:06:40

Now I'm uneducated like any more stories as

1:06:42

I wanted to tell. Or or anything like

1:06:44

that. I have one question for you

1:06:47

John. Yes, Okay, so

1:06:49

well look at this. This is a daily

1:06:51

double. Oh. Okay,

1:06:53

and is quite as for you.

1:06:55

Ah, from November twenty sixth through

1:06:57

December third, two thousand And Seven.

1:07:00

Who appeared as a contestant?

1:07:02

On Jeopardy. Who. Won

1:07:04

five games. And. Earned nearly

1:07:07

one hundred thousand dollars before

1:07:09

being. Beaten. In her

1:07:11

six appearance. I'm. Ringing and

1:07:13

who is? Writer: Producer: We

1:07:15

suckling. That's. And

1:07:17

will as view will accept any. Okay,

1:07:20

our rights excellence be some. I'm

1:07:23

so excited about that. But or

1:07:25

tribute my mom and my aunt,

1:07:27

we're both on Jeopardy. Really, They

1:07:29

walked away with some lovely parting

1:07:31

guess is that ah think I

1:07:33

will be some luggage are some

1:07:36

vitamins activities of at it's big

1:07:38

you racked up. Yes,

1:07:40

that's how much further. That

1:07:42

there was there was such a blast and would

1:07:44

a lot of people don't realize that separate he

1:07:46

is it. They actually some five episodes in a

1:07:48

day at a some of weeks worth of episodes

1:07:51

all at once. And so I did actually all

1:07:53

five of those episodes in a single day. Wow.

1:07:57

Wow. Have you

1:07:59

ever felt as on fire? Replace it

1:08:01

with with trivia and recall as you

1:08:04

did in that day during the first

1:08:06

five episodes that that does that? That

1:08:08

must be a Pete Is it really

1:08:10

is? It's it's really a trap them

1:08:13

in the adrenaline is going obviously birds

1:08:15

at the same time. I felt confident

1:08:17

because I I did know was of

1:08:19

the answer is a hands you know.

1:08:22

I had studied obviously in overcoat before

1:08:24

being on the shell. I'd really said

1:08:26

it american history because they have a

1:08:28

lot of questions about. American. History of

1:08:31

other categories that presidents. And the

1:08:33

Civil War and states and stuff like

1:08:35

that. So I had said he dad

1:08:37

and his cited. Some. Sports because I

1:08:39

was there was also we category of

1:08:41

mine. Okay, And

1:08:43

it does. You had a sports category when you

1:08:45

her ah ah i think idea of than i

1:08:47

advocated very well and at. Justice. Minister

1:08:50

will at some just accept the fact

1:08:52

that I had a degree at all

1:08:54

excellent and then but the Weight V

1:08:56

or the final jeopardy questions that does

1:08:58

that ended the street no idea. I

1:09:00

have a feeling of source by our

1:09:02

the categories was women authors and I

1:09:04

am a woman author. It really I'm

1:09:06

like of all the questions in the

1:09:08

world that I should have gotten his

1:09:10

should have been on. But. I bet

1:09:12

you'll never forget when I'll never forget

1:09:14

that. Just stop. This is my out.

1:09:16

My mother and my and they knew

1:09:19

each other as Final Jeopardy early and

1:09:21

it frustrated the hell out of suppose

1:09:23

that lightweight. You know you're there on

1:09:25

stage and it it's I mean you

1:09:27

can speak to this. I'm sure it's

1:09:30

a very nerve wracking thing because of

1:09:32

salt. It's it's happening in real time

1:09:34

and it's fast. And if there's pressure,

1:09:36

ah it's not like to sitting at

1:09:38

home runs. Ah, just rattling off the

1:09:40

answers of is all. About on Top

1:09:43

of youths and yeah, I remember

1:09:45

my my mom saying just screaming

1:09:47

at the Tv because she knew

1:09:49

the answer to my aunt's question.

1:09:51

and my aunt. Likewise,

1:09:53

Knew the answer to my mom,

1:09:55

but they will never forget. what's

1:09:57

the Italian translation of a little.

1:10:00

Mermaid is. Because

1:10:02

it I was one of them and on I

1:10:04

forget the other. But I'm sure though, remind me.

1:10:07

Yeah, no, I had actually never read. The

1:10:09

Books and A Good Earth by Pearl Box Office

1:10:11

was the answer to that was sent by. There

1:10:14

was a me. I have read it now since.

1:10:17

I thought the upper upper slopes We said

1:10:19

thank you so much for your time today!

1:10:21

What a pleasure getting to our to look

1:10:23

back a few seasons Voyager with your own.

1:10:25

Thank you for having me. Recently.

1:10:28

Went out share and of your social media information

1:10:30

safe If I mean the when it gets touch

1:10:32

with you are you know damn sure anything like

1:10:35

that. So sometimes you know some people do, some

1:10:37

people don't button. I just wanted to ask. Yeah,

1:10:40

I'm I'm cease to And twitter

1:10:42

and Instagram or anyone. Blue Sky

1:10:45

mostly versions of the suckling. I

1:10:47

think I'm lucky. allocate. Clink.

1:10:49

On Twitter, on and

1:10:51

as and website visitors

1:10:54

think.com either. This

1:11:15

is around. Very. Podcast or

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Market Podcasts Visit Podcast

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Out roddenberry.com.