0:07

I'm Ben Smith. I'm Max Tawney. And this

0:09

is Mix Signals from Semaphore Media. This

0:12

week on the show, we're talking to

0:14

Leslie Berlin, the chief marketing officer for

0:16

Verizon, and the former CMO for a

0:18

little company that was then called Twitter.

0:20

We'll chat with her about her old

0:22

boss, Elon Musk, and how to build

0:24

a marketable brand, capture people's attention, and

0:26

actually sell stuff in the age of

0:29

cord cutting and digital fragmentation and digital

0:31

fragmentation. Yeah, the news cycle this week's

0:33

moving a little fast and we thought

0:35

we would step back with somebody's career

0:37

has really spanned the whole transformation

0:39

of this media landscape. All of

0:42

that after the break. As

0:44

you know, in this show about

0:46

media, our ads are fittingly

0:48

about advertising. And we've

0:50

got a lot of people

0:52

across the marketing industry among

0:54

our listeners. They're facing intense

0:57

pressure for growth. dramatic, AI-driven

0:59

change, and stakes that have

1:01

never been higher. It's the

1:03

same exhilarating, overwhelming moment across

1:05

media. That's where I think with Google

1:08

comes in. It's marketers' go-to spot for

1:10

staying ahead of the curve with

1:12

insights, hot trends, and real talk

1:14

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1:16

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1:18

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1:20

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1:22

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1:24

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1:26

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1:28

find all that at Think with google.com.

1:31

So Ben, as I was preparing for

1:33

this episode, I was kind

1:35

of reflecting back on the beginnings

1:38

of my career about 10 years

1:40

ago. One of the first things

1:42

I learned is that the easiest

1:44

way to kind of get to

1:46

the heart of many media stories

1:48

about the media is the old

1:50

cliche, which is just follow the

1:52

money, basically. All right, Woodward. You know, it's

1:54

a it's it's a basic thing that

1:56

you anybody can learn. But it is

1:58

true though. It's true. Yeah, the more

2:00

you spend doing this the more you

2:02

realize so many of these decisions that you

2:04

see the media make our financial. Well

2:06

exactly and so as that applies to our

2:09

job in our industry you know the

2:11

people who are spending the money in media

2:13

who therefore have a lot of influence

2:15

are almost always the advertisers and marketers principally

2:17

the CMOs or most powerfully the CMOs.

2:19

Yeah I mean it is interesting because I

2:22

think when you are a media executive

2:24

when you're publishing business CMOs are very, very

2:26

important people, but they also are funnily

2:28

often a bit outside the space of journalism,

2:30

probably because I think that marketers are

2:32

very concerned with controlling the story and

2:35

telling stories in a very disciplined way.

2:37

And so often they don't love loose

2:39

free form interviews. So they're sometimes slightly

2:41

hard to book, but we've managed to

2:44

persuade Leslie and a few others to

2:46

come on this season. And I do think

2:48

that, you know, basically. Nobody has been

2:50

more swamped by the changes in media

2:53

than the people responsible for using it

2:55

to sell stuff at a massive

2:57

scale, and they've really lived this transformation

2:59

probably as intensely as anybody else

3:01

as any of us sort of producing

3:04

media. I mean you really pick up on

3:06

that when you go to Can Lion, the

3:08

big advertising festival, and you see the kind

3:10

of folks who these people think are the

3:12

most important. It's like literally people who a

3:15

lot of us have never heard of, but

3:17

in three years we are very very familiar

3:19

with them because of course news and media

3:21

is always just a little bit behind kind

3:23

of where the money is. But let's talk

3:26

about Leslie, like Ben, who is she, why

3:28

should our listeners know who know who she

3:30

is, if they don't already know who she

3:32

is. writes the checks that underwrite tons

3:34

of the things you consume, whether it

3:36

is the Super Bowl or your favorite

3:39

Tiktak influencer. And her career has really

3:41

like tracked these dramatic, dramatic changes in

3:43

media. She was started sort of a

3:46

star in like a very traditional advertising

3:48

department of American Express, and then kind

3:50

of shocked her industry by jumping to

3:53

Twitter in 2016, was then very briefly

3:55

seen as the only person at Twitter

3:57

who could handle Elon Musk, which the...

4:00

number of people can actually do that

4:02

turns out to be zero. And then

4:04

followed kind of the heat of the

4:06

culture to Peloton, one of the darlings

4:08

of the pandemic, a brief, brief spell

4:10

there before going to Verizon where she

4:12

has one of these actually huge classic

4:14

CMO jobs now managing a massive budget

4:16

across all sorts of platforms. But she's

4:19

always been, I think, at the front

4:21

end of this shift from a job

4:23

that was really about buying and shaping

4:25

television ads and approving television scripts. to

4:27

looking across a much broader, more confusing,

4:29

more fragmented digital landscape. Let's

4:31

bring Leslie on. Welcome Leslie. Thanks

4:33

for coming on. So happy to be

4:36

here. And I guess I wanted to

4:38

just start really through the lens of

4:40

your own interesting career. You started like

4:42

the most classic corporate environment doing PR

4:44

and then advertising for American Express. And

4:46

I'm curious if there was a moment

4:48

when you realized just how much the

4:50

business was changing and how it was

4:53

going to change your job in your

4:55

career. Absolutely. So yeah, I did

4:57

start my career at American Express,

4:59

but was in the PRR Com's

5:01

function. It was a really interesting

5:03

time because there was the moment

5:05

of sort of digital transformation that

5:07

was happening in the financial services

5:10

space. And that was also colliding

5:12

with the rise of social media.

5:14

And so, you know, when you're

5:16

sitting at a company that is

5:18

a bank and also contemplating where,

5:20

you know, the world is operating

5:22

in an entirely new way, getting

5:24

information in an entirely new way,

5:26

sort of getting control of brands

5:29

and, you know, brands being in

5:31

the hands of consumers in an

5:33

entirely new way, it was a really,

5:35

really... fascinating time. I had from

5:37

my Com's job took a role

5:39

that was called VP of online

5:41

media, but it was essentially driving

5:43

social media strategy for the company.

5:45

I was actually the first tweeter

5:48

for American Express, if you can

5:50

believe it. So my career came

5:52

full circle, and it was the

5:54

first time you saw that sort

5:56

of the younger generation, the most

5:58

junior people at the company. company

6:00

knew so much more, so much

6:02

more than the most senior people

6:04

at the company about something so

6:06

important. So then after you built something

6:08

really interesting, you've been one of the

6:10

first people to understand digital at American

6:12

Express. Then you jumped to Twitter in

6:15

2016 to run marketing. I'm sure some

6:17

people at American Express, some of your

6:19

colleagues, maybe people you knew were kind

6:21

of wondering what you were thinking, and

6:23

I guess, what were you thinking? Why

6:25

would you make that decision? That's

6:27

such a good question. It's actually

6:29

as dramatic as you're making

6:31

it sound, and Twitter was a

6:33

platform, and still it is

6:35

frankly, but was a platform that

6:37

I was so passionate about,

6:39

and was so addicted to, and

6:42

was a lifeline of information.

6:44

So it was like a crossroads

6:46

in life, it was sort

6:48

of like, I could take the

6:50

linear path, and the road

6:52

probably more commonly traveled, or I

6:54

could do something that is way

6:56

more uncharted, and unknown, and

6:59

in many ways risky. Jack Dorsey

7:01

had just come back to

7:03

the company, I was the first

7:05

CMO, I was the only

7:07

person on the executive team who

7:09

lived in New York, and

7:11

so there was, it definitely sort

7:13

of was this moment. You

7:15

were known somewhat briefly as one of

7:17

the only people who could deal with

7:19

Elon. This was mentioned in Ryan Mack

7:22

and Kate Conger's Twitter book, which described

7:24

you as, and I'm quoting from the

7:26

book, an expert in harnessing large male

7:28

business egos. And now I know obviously

7:30

you're limited in what you can and

7:32

probably want to say about the whole

7:34

saga, but just to kind of take

7:37

a step back, what we're kind of

7:39

curious about is what did you learn

7:41

from that experience? Like what have you

7:43

actually taken and kind of applied to the

7:45

other jobs, even if you can't speak about it specifically? I

7:48

mean, this is ours

7:50

and ours. I mean,

7:52

how do I summarize?

7:54

No, truly, truly, I

7:56

mean, listen,

7:58

there's so much to learn. about how

8:01

people lead, what drives

8:03

decisions, what influences

8:05

decisions, you know, when

8:07

you think about the platform itself

8:09

and the voices on the platform.

8:11

And I experience this in all

8:14

my years at Twitter, you know,

8:16

when you're having, when you're getting

8:18

real-time feedback loops, it also sort

8:20

of changes the brain chemistry and

8:22

how you think and how you

8:25

operate. the brains as you say

8:27

of the people running it whether

8:29

it was Jack or Dick or

8:31

you or then Elon like do

8:34

you think it was a particularly

8:36

weird in all the people who

8:38

worked there like was it harder

8:40

to operate because everyone was

8:42

losing their minds on Twitter all the time yeah

8:44

I will tell you this I first of all

8:47

I used to dream in tweets like I would

8:49

close my eyes at night and I would see

8:51

the timeline and I was not alone so just

8:53

so you know that but I will I will

8:55

say this you know working at Twitter or

8:57

any public open you know, platform,

9:00

including, you know, obviously X now

9:02

and others, you know, you you

9:04

definitely are trained and wired in

9:06

a completely different way than anywhere

9:08

else because you are operating at

9:10

a speed that is minute to

9:13

minute, quite literally. You know, you

9:15

are constantly on the platform, you're

9:17

constantly seeing the world unfold in

9:19

ways that are beautiful and ways

9:21

that are horrifying. You know, you

9:24

are getting, you know, feedback loops

9:26

from lots of different places that

9:28

obviously are quite polarizing often. So

9:30

absolutely, I think anyone who has

9:33

or continues to work at these

9:35

platforms is built different and it

9:37

is not for everybody. You're now, like,

9:39

as you suggest, in, like, a very normal

9:42

company. You've moved on, you're the CMO Verizon,

9:44

which is, like, one of the classic huge

9:46

CMO jobs in America. And I was actually

9:48

talking to another CMO the other night. I

9:50

mentioned that we were going to talk and

9:52

she said, isn't Leslie bored? Like, isn't this

9:55

boring compared to all the craziness that she's

9:57

been through in the past, you know, sort

9:59

of selling? subscriptions in a basically fairly

10:01

normal way so I don't know is

10:03

this is this boring? I am

10:05

the opposite of board. I you know

10:08

I took this job because I saw

10:10

the opportunity and the need for transformation

10:12

and change. You know this isn't stepping

10:14

into a role where the expectation is

10:16

to do the same thing over and

10:18

over again. And just a high level

10:20

just sort of explain it to the

10:22

audience like you can I think Verizon

10:24

and a lot of I mean I

10:26

think the telecoms industry and traditionally The

10:29

marketing is going out and saying our

10:31

plan is 15 cents cheaper and the

10:33

coverage in North Dakota is a little

10:35

better. Like it's very focused on details.

10:37

I mean, you know, which is probably

10:40

most the reason people buy phone plans.

10:42

And it seems like that world is

10:44

changing a bit, right? Like that's what

10:46

you've brought into change. So I think

10:48

that part of what we do is

10:50

incredibly core, right? How you tell those stories.

10:53

I think there is, and we're experiencing it,

10:55

there's a massive opportunity to tell these

10:57

stories and to communicate this in clear

11:00

bolder ways. I think at the same

11:02

time, you know, there's a brand transformation

11:04

that we are, you know, driving as

11:06

well. We relaunched the brand in June

11:08

of last year and are now sort

11:11

of building from there. And, you know,

11:13

the goal is to very much bring

11:15

to life all the things that Verizon

11:17

is and does in your life. You

11:20

know, it's this amazing challenge where... You

11:22

know, we are running underneath and powering

11:24

every single thing you do, but

11:26

we're invisible most of the time.

11:29

And so it's sort of like

11:31

bringing to life and telling stories

11:33

about an invisibleness, but that's so

11:36

critical. And that's an amazing challenge.

11:38

With that sort of relaunch of the brand, I

11:40

mean my sort of read of this is

11:42

that you were kind of trying to take

11:44

it away from being seen as this utility,

11:46

this invisible thing, into something that feels like

11:48

it's starting to edge into the space of

11:50

other brands, of media brands, of entertainment brands,

11:52

and I think that, you know, it's been

11:54

interesting to see these things merge. Like, it

11:56

is interesting to me that you can get

11:58

a, like, a Netflix Max subscription. Verizon like

12:00

that's a weird twist and I'm curious if

12:03

you see these things converging are those you

12:05

know are those things that are sort of

12:07

your customers also sort of your competitors like

12:09

how do you navigate that? Yeah no

12:11

listen they are absolutely our partners and

12:14

our collaborators and across so many realms

12:16

but I think you're hitting the most

12:18

important part which is we truly are

12:20

a life company right every time you

12:23

pick up your phone it works because

12:25

of us I mean we are really

12:27

at every touch point of every part

12:30

of the life cycle and family and

12:32

that sort of presence is so when

12:34

we carry that responsibility, right? It's a

12:37

privilege and a responsibility. So just

12:39

to take a step back and

12:41

get a sense of scale, how

12:43

much money does Verizon spend on

12:45

marketing every year? In total, approximately

12:48

three billion dollars.

12:50

That is unbelievable. I mean, that is

12:52

like, it's difficult to wrap your head

12:54

around that and having one person in

12:56

charge. Obviously you have a lot of

12:58

folks who work with you. There are

13:00

many people in charge that includes all

13:02

of our promotional, spand, etc. Yes. Of

13:04

course, of course, but still, it's, you

13:06

know, that's pretty significant. To your point

13:08

about the ways in which you tell

13:10

the stories about Verizon are changing, what's

13:13

the breakdown of how you spend, how

13:15

and where you spend that $3 billion,

13:17

is it still television ads or is

13:19

it, you know, how are you shifting

13:21

that? What does that pie chart look

13:24

like? Yeah, absolutely. And it's

13:26

still evolving and it certainly

13:28

depends. However, there's no question

13:30

that it is evolving from

13:32

linear TV to digital, you

13:34

know, digital and social marketing

13:37

specifically is extraordinary streaming, you

13:39

know, all of these channels

13:41

and spaces and getting increasingly

13:43

personalized is where we're moving.

13:45

That said. you know there

13:48

is still a role for

13:50

linear TV sports continues to

13:52

be massive and only getting

13:54

bigger and so you know my goal

13:56

is to continue to elevate the brand

13:58

in ways that and drive sort of awareness

14:00

for what we offer. And then of

14:02

course be super smart, lower down the funnel.

14:05

So linear TV's still big, sports is

14:07

still big, but obviously that other

14:09

bucket, the one that we talk about

14:11

in media is that kind of

14:13

creator space, right? How much of your

14:15

life as a CMO is now

14:18

about figuring out that? Yeah,

14:20

so it is, a

14:22

lot of my life has spent

14:24

living in that space. So I'm

14:26

not spending much time trying to

14:28

figure it out. I'm spending a

14:30

ton of time on these platforms, deeply

14:33

in these platforms. Scrolling, TikToks

14:36

and Reels is what you're saying. Do you dream

14:38

in them yet? I do not dream

14:40

in them yet. I do

14:42

not dream in them yet, but

14:44

I think that each platform is

14:46

different obviously and I've gotten

14:48

in deep enough to both see

14:50

the opportunity for brands and

14:52

for ours that is unique and

14:54

different, but also to see

14:56

where trends are starting to go

14:58

before they go there. And

15:01

so I think that's the challenge

15:03

in, I think the CMO

15:05

role right now is that we

15:07

are setting vision and strategies

15:09

and direction and you really have

15:11

to be in this stuff

15:13

on the day to day to

15:15

understand it. Yeah, I'm curious, like

15:17

you're a major executive at a giant company

15:19

and then like some random influencer who

15:21

goes really viral and you notice it or

15:23

somebody sends it to you. Like can

15:26

you just be like, all right Verizon's all

15:28

in here or is there some long

15:30

set of committee meetings by which point obviously

15:32

this thing is old? Like how do

15:34

you, I mean it's a big challenge for

15:36

lots of different kinds of organizations. How

15:38

do you deal with that? Well,

15:40

I, you know, often times

15:42

I'm the one saying I just saw this

15:44

on TikTok, this creator is starting to

15:46

catch a couple. So I'm in it with

15:48

the team. I am not, it's, you

15:50

know, sometimes the team will bring, you know

15:52

something that's like sort of a curve

15:55

ball, but most of the time we're in

15:57

it together. We are sharing ongoing. I

15:59

mean, that's how. that's how much I

16:01

use these platforms as well. So

16:03

in short, no, we keep these

16:05

teams very, very small. It's down

16:07

to a few people. We did

16:09

a TikTok video with Jules LeBron, who

16:11

is the creator of the Demure

16:13

meme and trend. And that from

16:15

beginning to end was three days.

16:17

You know, obviously we were all

16:19

watching what was happening and every

16:21

other brand was doing their own

16:23

version of the Demure trend. And

16:26

I was like, no, we have to go to

16:28

the source and we have to do this

16:30

immediately before every other brand,

16:32

you know, works with her. And

16:34

so I think if we would

16:36

have even lost a day, it

16:38

would have been too late. There's

16:40

no room for committees and, you

16:42

know, reviews upon reviews or hierarchy,

16:44

I think, in this space. And maybe we

16:46

can play that actually, that clip for

16:48

our listeners. Ladies, let's be

16:51

mindful when we use our phones. You know,

16:53

me, I keep it very cutesy, very

16:55

demure. I reply to my texts, I get

16:57

to my emails, I do a few,

16:59

you know, picky, picky, flicky, flickies. And that's

17:01

why I'm at Verizon. Verizon lets me

17:03

trade in a musty diva for a demure

17:05

diva. Verizon lets anyone trade in a

17:07

crusty phone for a new one. We don't

17:09

have a crunchy phone. We don't do

17:11

a crack screen. I'm not typing on my

17:13

phone and getting cuts on my fingers.

17:15

I'm not charging my phone and it's witty

17:17

what I will going crazy on me.

17:19

Thank you. You said we get

17:21

the bag? I take my bag. I'm

17:23

very cute. I'm very respectful to the staff.

17:25

I don't do crazy. I walk out

17:27

with my nice new phone and that's why

17:29

I partner with Verizon. She keeps it

17:31

elegant. She keeps it cutesy. She keeps it

17:33

classy. She does red. She doesn't do

17:36

hot pink. She's not crazy. She's very demure.

17:39

Yes. So I guess the

17:41

thing that I'm really curious about in this

17:43

space and I imagine this is a

17:45

challenge that you guys have and that, you

17:47

know, a lot of people in your

17:49

in similar roles elsewhere have is like, how

17:51

do you kind of hook Yoke, a

17:53

brand onto something like that, like an internet

17:55

trend like that without making people feel

17:57

icky or like, oh man, this is like

17:59

of... like gross sponsored content.

18:01

It's like this is like selling

18:03

out for this person. Where is

18:05

that line? And how do you

18:08

think about navigating that? Yeah. How

18:10

do you essentially not be cringy

18:12

as the kids say? Yes. Listen,

18:14

I think this all, it all

18:16

comes full circle around needing

18:18

to heavily and intensely use these

18:20

platforms in order to know the

18:22

tone and the nuance around it.

18:25

So as an example, for this

18:27

specifically. The way the ideas came

18:29

together was that this guaranteed trade

18:31

and you can trade in any

18:33

phone and get a new one

18:36

was like the perfect, like we

18:38

identified that as the perfect and

18:40

possibly the only thing that would

18:42

work with her. If we didn't

18:44

have that and this was like

18:47

a get X percent off of

18:49

this or get, it needed to be

18:51

a visual, tangible. something that she could

18:53

riff off of. And I think the

18:55

other part that's so important with creators

18:57

like her, and again, this was the

19:00

first big brand deal that she did

19:02

ever. And so what was so important

19:04

in working with her was to say,

19:06

be you. You know, do you? Sometimes you

19:08

start working with creators, especially those

19:10

who are, you know, just up

19:12

and coming. and they go into

19:14

like a corporate play, it's Verizon,

19:16

and suddenly it's, you know, there's

19:18

an affect that comes and they're

19:21

holding back a little bit. And,

19:23

you know, we are often pushing

19:25

them to be as authentically them

19:27

as they can possibly be to

19:29

avoid Max, exactly what you're saying,

19:31

is coming in as a corporation

19:33

doing a brand deal. So it

19:35

all starts for me with authenticity

19:37

of the creator and letting them do what

19:39

they do. You know, one of the

19:41

top comments under the... that post,

19:43

maybe the top one is somebody

19:45

congratulating her and making so much money from

19:47

Verizon and saying, I hope you made 50,000. Which

19:50

is a funny feature of that space, yeah, getting

19:52

her bag. It was a funny that like, hey,

19:54

is that, is that about the right amount? Is

19:56

that about what you paid? I felt like it

19:59

was low on a. Listen, I can't

20:01

confirm or deny, but I will

20:03

tell you, she was very happy,

20:05

and her team was very happy.

20:07

I will say that, and it

20:09

also enabled, once she worked with

20:11

us, there were so many other

20:13

brands that she's worked with since

20:15

then. But I will tell you,

20:17

another part of the strategy is

20:20

literally what you said, which is,

20:22

we knew that if you tracked

20:24

her comments over time, people were

20:26

rooting for her. That was part

20:28

of what was happening. They wanted her

20:30

to be successful, and they were invested.

20:32

Nothing about the response surprised any of

20:34

us. I knew those comments. It's going

20:36

to be like, get your bad girl.

20:38

We knew it was going to be

20:40

a big part of it. There's

20:43

no real analogy for that in

20:45

traditional media, where you sell an

20:47

ad, and your audience thanks you

20:49

and congratulates you. That is not

20:51

the normal experience in media, although

20:53

we try to produce advertising that's

20:55

high quality. Yeah, no, you're

20:57

absolutely right. And that's not most creators.

20:59

There are certain creators that you see

21:01

that are coming up in this way.

21:04

Well, on the topic of seamlessly integrating advertising into

21:06

media, we're going to take a break right

21:08

here, and then we'll come back and hear more

21:10

from Leslie. This

21:22

week in our branded segment from Think with

21:24

Google, I spoke to Google's VP of marketing,

21:26

Josh Spanier, about how to meet consumers where

21:29

they are, whether they're searching, scrolling, streaming, or

21:31

shopping. So the big

21:33

story of 2024 was just this

21:35

massive fragmentation of media, this incredibly confusing

21:37

landscape for people like us to

21:39

look at, a place in which consumers

21:41

can deeply personalize what they're listening

21:43

to, what they're seeing, what they're reading.

21:45

And I think that makes it

21:47

hard for people in your position for

21:49

marketers to find consumers at the

21:51

right place in the right time. So

21:53

how do you think about navigating

21:55

that? So I recently went to a

21:57

museum I saw up close. a

22:00

beautiful Jackson Pollock painting, one of

22:02

his splatter canvases. And I stood in

22:04

front of that beautiful painting. I

22:06

really was thinking about my own marketing

22:08

services industry, as you describe the

22:10

complexity of every surface and touch point

22:12

and device of PR and comms

22:14

and media and AI and content and

22:16

how it all has sort of

22:18

blurred together. And it is somewhat overwhelming.

22:20

But then part of my job

22:22

and part of every good marketer's job

22:24

is to take a step back

22:26

and try and see, I guess, the

22:28

signal in the noise or the

22:30

shapes in the patterns like you

22:33

do with the Jackson Pollock.

22:35

One of the things I've used

22:37

is a framing around four

22:39

key consumer behaviors. Streaming, scrolling, searching

22:41

and shopping. And what we're

22:43

seeing across Google's product mix and

22:45

all our properties is these activities, these

22:47

key human behaviors are sort of

22:49

intersecting through technology. And when we understand

22:51

the consumer journeys that people are

22:53

taking, we as marketers can actually help

22:55

navigate those paths and actually intersect

22:57

in ways which are useful and additive

23:00

to consumers. So that may be

23:02

someone using Google Lens with their phone,

23:04

just taking a picture of something

23:06

and searching for it. Or it may

23:08

be someone watching and strolling through

23:10

YouTube, pausing a video and using circle

23:12

to search to search for a watch

23:14

that someone in that video is wearing

23:16

and getting instantaneously a Google search shopping

23:18

result, which allows you to buy that

23:20

watch and they go back to watching

23:22

the video. This framing, streaming, scrolling, searching

23:25

and shopping is helping us really think

23:27

through these different pathways and where we

23:29

can be useful from both a technological

23:31

and a marketing engagement perspective to help

23:33

unpack this complex, dynamic landscape to make

23:35

mess from the noise. Just as Jackson

23:38

Pollock helps us do with his paintings.

23:40

Brave New World, where can people learn

23:42

more about consumer behavior today? You can

23:44

head to thinkwithgoogle.com and it's bursting

23:46

with great content, great articles and

23:48

great videos to learn about the

23:50

streaming, scrolling, searching and shopping principle.

23:52

All right. Thanks, Josh. Thanks, Ben.

24:08

You're now operating in a world Leslie where

24:10

where these big social media platforms are shifting

24:12

away from content moderation Or toward a lighter

24:14

touch and obviously when you were Twitter you

24:17

thought about this stuff all the time I'm

24:19

sure But I'm curious as how you approach

24:21

this new world if you're worried about the

24:23

context your ads show up in or if

24:25

you're just measuring you know the increments that

24:27

you sell and not so worried about the

24:30

context in which they appear anymore Yeah, I

24:32

mean we care. We care about all

24:34

of it, right? You care about the

24:36

message, you care about it being in

24:39

the right place in the right moment

24:41

in the right time, and you care

24:43

about it being in a safe context

24:45

and an appropriate context always. You know,

24:48

I think there is a very rapid

24:50

rate of change that is underway. And

24:52

by the way, these things... In my

24:54

experience, they evolve over time, right? Oftentimes,

24:57

changes are made, and then, you know,

24:59

each platform learns and evolves and understands

25:01

sort of what's working, what's not

25:03

working, you know, these things are

25:06

typically not linear, but certainly there

25:08

is a lot of change underway.

25:10

So I think it's just really

25:12

important to always look at the

25:15

business objectives and what we're trying

25:17

to achieve and the goals that

25:19

we need to meet and as

25:22

well as our customers and what

25:24

being sensitive to them and our

25:26

values. But every brand right now...

25:28

has to be understanding that things

25:31

are changing and they're going to

25:33

continue to change. So I

25:35

don't think we were ever in

25:38

a place of, you know,

25:40

at least I never felt

25:42

that there was a firm

25:44

anchor in this space because,

25:46

again, my world, in my

25:48

experience, this was something that

25:50

was always in conversation and was

25:52

challenging and we just need

25:54

to be able to navigate

25:57

it. toward content moderation,

25:59

towards safe. for environments, or do

26:01

you think that era is totally

26:03

over? Listen, I think it's all very

26:05

early right now. You know, I think

26:07

that there's, you know, you see what

26:09

platforms sort of. announce and communicate, but

26:12

then it's also really important to have

26:14

very strong and deep relationships at these,

26:16

you know, at these companies and with

26:18

these, with the teams at these platforms

26:20

because you get, you get so much

26:22

deeper, right? What we're all reading about

26:24

and you're all reading about are the

26:27

policies and we want to understand are

26:29

the tools and the tools available to

26:31

us and what this actually looks like

26:33

and, you know, get our questions answered and

26:35

so it's, you know, it's, it's very, very,

26:37

very early right now, but, you know, been

26:40

very collaborative. So we're, as we're recording

26:42

this, it's still unclear what's going

26:44

to happen with Tiktok. But I'm

26:46

curious, from your perspective, what does

26:48

a world without Tiktok look like

26:51

for you and for Verizon? I

26:53

mean, you've spent all this time

26:55

both getting to know influencers and

26:57

Tiktokers and you're like deeply plugged

26:59

into this space. What does it

27:01

actually mean if something changes? It's

27:04

probably even bigger than the

27:06

question that you're asking. I

27:09

think foundationally so much changes from

27:11

a culture and trend standpoint at

27:13

baseline. Like putting creators aside for

27:15

a second, there is so much

27:18

like the purchasing power, the purchasing

27:20

decisions, behaviors that are influenced by

27:22

this platform overall is massive. From

27:25

music, sports, entertainment, you know, everything

27:27

across beauty, all of it. So

27:29

that is a, that would be

27:32

a significant, significant shift. In terms

27:34

of the creators and the influencers

27:36

we work with, you know, they're

27:38

on numerous platforms, you know, some

27:41

of them go longer form, they're on

27:43

YouTube, some are, you know, many of them

27:45

are Instagram. We spend a lot of time

27:47

on Instagram and focused on Instagram as well,

27:50

you know, that is where a lot of

27:52

our customers are and engage. But, you know,

27:54

we work with SNAP, we obviously, we advertise

27:57

on Facebook, we're obviously in a lot of

27:59

different places. I do think there

28:01

is no underestimating

28:03

the dramatic, dramatic

28:05

impact of this.

28:07

Speaking of kind of upcoming interesting kind

28:10

of media moments, the biggest media moment

28:12

for marketing in the US is always

28:14

obviously the Super Bowl. Last year you

28:16

guys did a Super Bowl ad with

28:18

fiancé. This year you guys I understand

28:20

are skipping the game and doing activations

28:22

across I guess it's my notes are

28:24

telling me 30 different stadiums. How do

28:26

you think about that and why you

28:28

guys are deciding to do something different

28:30

this year? What's the thinking? Yes. And we're

28:32

not skipping the game, we're just

28:34

skipping the advertising during the game. Not

28:37

doing Beyonce again at the game. Exactly,

28:39

exactly. We'll listen, we'll be there and

28:41

we'll be on the ground doing lots

28:43

of activations in New Orleans as well.

28:46

But I think this goes back to

28:48

the conversation we were having earlier about

28:50

doing things that are very ownable to

28:53

Verizon, that put our customers at the

28:55

center, that is sort of... zigging where

28:57

everyone else is zagging. You know, what

29:00

is exciting for us watching this all

29:02

unfold is the Super All hasn't even

29:04

happened, and the conversation about what we're

29:06

doing is very loud and very broad

29:09

across the entire country. And so

29:11

there's something really interesting about capturing

29:14

organic conversation, and we're doing some

29:16

advertising, but the press and the

29:18

comms around this has been absolutely

29:21

extraordinary. and importantly at the local

29:23

level. And it's sort of bringing

29:25

this sort of big company type

29:28

of experience like the Super Bowl,

29:30

which so few people get to

29:33

actually experience, and bringing that experience

29:35

to people in ways that. Quite

29:37

literally no one else can.

29:39

So this is where it's

29:41

an ambitious plan. 30 concurrent

29:43

events happening. Biggest Super Bowl

29:45

party ever. It'll be really

29:47

amazing. We're excited. Is that

29:50

cheaper or more expensive than one

29:52

Super Bowl ad with Beyonce? I

29:54

will not answer that question, but

29:56

I will say that it is

29:58

money very well spent. You know, I

30:00

mean, just to conclude a final question,

30:02

you know, we like, basically every week

30:04

on the show, we're talking about these

30:06

sweeping changes in the media, this sort

30:08

of shift toward individuals where they call

30:11

them creators, influencers, brands, and this intense

30:13

fragmentation where people are consuming from all

30:15

different directions and different things, and the

30:17

business around it's going to continue to

30:19

evolve, continue to get more sophisticated. And

30:21

I guess we're curious, you know, where

30:23

do you think it's heading? And what's

30:25

the next big innovation that you see coming

30:27

down the pike? Yeah, I

30:29

love that you asked this question

30:31

because I think that it goes

30:33

back to where you were talking

30:35

about, Linda, your TV, you know,

30:37

there's a historical sort of draw

30:39

to sort of the blanketing and

30:41

what is very, very clear and

30:43

is only going to become further

30:45

intensified is, you called it fragmentation,

30:48

but it is these micro

30:50

communities and these micro passions and

30:52

these micro interests and ways

30:54

of talking within those contexts that

30:56

are getting more and more

30:58

specific. And, you know, speaking, you

31:00

know, with people, not at

31:02

people, I think that that entire

31:05

space and world is going

31:07

to continue to intensify in that

31:09

way because there are so

31:11

many platforms and so many just

31:13

opportunities and outlets for people

31:15

to connect on very specific things.

31:17

So it's all about really getting

31:19

local and nuanced and understanding

31:21

your audiences and, again, above all

31:24

else, being able to move

31:26

very, very quickly. And is the

31:28

path to that, you know, like armies of

31:30

Leslie Berlin's spending 10 hours a day on

31:32

TikTok or whatever the TikTok successor is, or

31:34

is it the kind of, to me, slightly

31:36

scary hyper -personalization that AI can bring where every

31:38

single individual is being marketed to differently? I

31:41

mean, how do you, like that sounds like

31:43

a lot of work, honestly, marketing to zillions

31:45

of communities with 10 people in the niche?

31:48

Yeah, listen, I think that obviously, and

31:50

it's too late to go deep

31:52

into obviously the AI conversation, but I

31:54

think responsibly using the new technologies

31:56

to meeting the right people in a

31:58

non -scary way. I will say,

32:00

delivering the message that is

32:02

most important and most relevant

32:04

to you or groups of you

32:07

is obviously the goal. In terms

32:09

of a million Leslie's, I

32:11

don't think anybody wants that,

32:13

but I do think that every

32:16

single marketer needs to be understanding

32:18

these platforms. They need to

32:20

be users of these platforms.

32:22

There is, in my view,

32:24

no way to do this job

32:27

without that hands-on understanding. All right,

32:29

we'll look forward to seeing

32:31

you on Little Red Book

32:33

or wherever we are. Look

32:35

at you! That's an

32:38

hilarious, hilarious friend.

32:40

Underweight, that's right. So

32:43

strange. It's very strange,

32:45

but it's very funny

32:47

content, I have to say.

32:49

Absolutely. Thank you so

32:52

much, Leslie. We really appreciate it.

32:54

Thank you. featuring Google marketing veterans Josh

32:56

Spanier, who you know from this show,

32:58

and Bethany Poole. They chat with some

33:00

of the biggest names in their industry,

33:02

the people behind the campaigns that really

33:04

leave a mark. They get into the nitty

33:06

gritty of what it takes to launch

33:09

great creative, take calculated risks, and stay

33:11

relevant in the ever-changing world of marketing.

33:13

You'll learn a ton about leadership, making tough

33:15

calls and how to shake things up

33:17

within your company. That includes episodes with

33:19

Uber's CMO on creating a great Super

33:21

Bowl ad that everyone remembers, and Zola's

33:23

CMO and CEO on building a brand

33:25

with strong values. If you're a marketer

33:27

at any level, check out modern marketers

33:30

by Think with Google, available wherever you

33:32

get your podcasts. Super

33:39

super fun to chat with Leslie. She's like

33:42

so so dynamic and you know not as

33:44

a you know you you had kind of

33:46

had the disclaimer like you know a lot

33:48

of CMOs are kind of buttoned up or

33:50

button down. I don't know. Careful. I was

33:52

careful. Careful. Exactly. Careful around journalists. She was

33:55

careful around journalists but it was fun and

33:57

it was an interesting window into just how

33:59

CMOs had the biggest companies are thinking

34:01

about spending their money in media, right?

34:03

Yeah, and it's like this kind

34:05

of great flattening you see everywhere, like

34:07

the CMO is obsessively watching TikTok,

34:09

seeing something happen on there, and just

34:11

like as fast as she can,

34:14

getting to that creator and doing a

34:16

deal. I mean, it's very opportunistic

34:18

and fast and just miles away from

34:20

what used to be this very

34:22

kind of careful, slow

34:24

moving, we're planning next year's Super Bowl ad

34:26

kind of business. Well, that stuff, of

34:28

course, happens too. It's really interesting to me

34:30

too, how much is not market or research

34:32

driven? Like you would imagine that the TV

34:34

ads, there's a lot of data that goes

34:37

into like, okay, we're going to do

34:39

these ad buys here and this is where

34:41

we need to, where we're looking to grow

34:43

and we want to compete in this place.

34:45

This is literally just like, I'm the CMO,

34:47

my team sent me this really funny

34:49

video and let's get this person on the

34:51

horn and bang one of these things out

34:53

really quickly. And I didn't realize how much

34:55

of the job was literally going to be like,

34:57

knowing creators and kind of having good impulses

35:00

around what works in that space. Yeah, mean, I'm

35:02

sure there's also piles of boring stuff and

35:04

research and data, of course, but you refer to

35:06

the bottom of the funnel and passing. But

35:08

yeah, it's just the sort of speed at which

35:10

you got to move now. I mean, that's

35:12

true in our business too. But I think it's

35:14

also interesting too, because that's probably part of the

35:16

job that you can't kind of eventually have AI

35:18

do, right? Like AI can tell you where

35:20

to do your ad buys probably. What it can't

35:22

tell you is which of these creators is

35:24

going to be really good to collaborate with and

35:26

just how to get the right tone. And

35:29

oh, we don't want to do a phone plan

35:31

thing. We want to do a phone, trade

35:33

your phone in type of thing. I don't know.

35:35

It seems to me that there's a little

35:37

bit of gut skill there. Yeah, it's interesting because

35:39

like the big story of marketing in the

35:41

last 30 years is the creative part of

35:43

it getting replaced by ad tech and

35:45

the sort of technical aspects of marketing, sort

35:47

of sweeping aside the old mad men

35:49

stuff. But it is interesting as the

35:51

technical stuff gets fully, truly automated that

35:54

there's this kind of return of an obsession

35:56

with like, how do you talk about

35:58

your brand with the basically intuitive stuff.

36:00

It's a creator-focused Don Draper. It's like,

36:02

have you seen that meme of

36:04

Don Draper with the bussin kind

36:06

of haircut? Do you know what

36:08

I'm talking about at all? I

36:11

have no idea. We're going to

36:13

have to... There's no way possibly

36:15

to explain what this means. It's

36:17

just him. It's just him with

36:19

the zoomer haircut. It's incredible. There's

36:21

a few people who are in

36:24

the advertising and marketing space. They'll know

36:26

what I think of as the media

36:28

space. If you're like watching a great

36:30

show on Netflix, it sounds like Leslie

36:32

wants Verizon to get like a bit

36:34

of credit for that in a way.

36:36

I think it's totally fascinating and it actually

36:39

does get a little bit at solving

36:41

what is the ultimate frustration of cord

36:43

cutting, which is can I just pay

36:45

for all of this shit with one?

36:47

thing. And I think that that is

36:49

like actually, it's something that a lot

36:51

of media companies have tried to solve.

36:53

You can see that Google has tried

36:55

to solve that to a certain degree

36:57

with, you know, YouTube TV, which bundles

36:59

and packages different things. So I think

37:01

it is really interesting that they've slightly

37:04

edged into that space and addressing a

37:06

serious concern that most consumers have. Totally,

37:08

it drives everybody crazy. And as we

37:10

all know, of course, like YouTube, Amazon,

37:12

Apple, are all trying to grab to

37:14

jump into that. Telecom and it's it's

37:16

this funny kind of competition. I mean

37:18

the other thing that's sort of interesting

37:20

about it is that AT&T disastrously purchased

37:22

Warner Media as their way of getting

37:25

into that space and I think what you're

37:27

seeing Verizon and its competitors do times be

37:29

like, well, we don't have to buy these

37:31

guys. We have so much leverage in terms

37:34

of being able to help them drive renewals

37:36

and drive sales of their subscriptions that we

37:38

can kind of push them into letting us

37:40

market them. I mean, like the fact that

37:42

you can buy a subscription combined to Netflix

37:45

and HBO is kind of a sign of

37:47

the weakness of those companies. In terms of

37:49

converting subscribers and the strength of these other

37:51

layers of the ecosystem, it's really kind of

37:54

wide open competition. Do you think that

37:56

those companies, the Netflixes and you know,

37:58

I mean Warner and Netflix are on...

38:00

different levels, but do you think that they

38:02

sense that that is a place of vulnerability

38:04

for them? Well, I think they also, I mean, yes,

38:07

I think they do, like churn is just this.

38:09

terrible problem for all of them and

38:11

holding on to subscribers at any cost.

38:13

True for Disney too, very important and

38:15

so they will give a lot to

38:17

partners who can help them with that.

38:19

Conversely, I do think they know and

38:21

the lesson we learned is that. Conversely,

38:23

I do think they know and the

38:25

lesson we learned is that these companies

38:27

are not really going to get into

38:29

the media business. Verizon had its disastrous

38:31

experiments in the media business. It had

38:33

its disastrous experiments in the media business. It's

38:35

going to be like a whole generation

38:38

of the media. Anyway, through what you're

38:40

doing through partnerships. Why indeed, Max? I

38:42

think we've made an effective argument against

38:45

our own business, but we'll leave it

38:47

at that for today. Thank you so

38:49

much for listening to Mix Signals from

38:51

Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by

38:54

Shino Ozaki with special thanks to Max

38:56

Tumi. Brida Galanis, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim,

38:58

Anna Pizino, Garrett Wiley, Garrett Wiley, and

39:00

Jules Zern. Our engineers, Rick Kwan, and

39:03

our theme Kwan, and our theme music,

39:05

and our theme music, and our theme

39:07

music, is by Billy Libby. And if

39:09

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