0:00

The New York Times app has all this stuff

0:02

that you may not have seen. The way the

0:04

tabs are at the top with all of the

0:06

different sections. I can immediately navigate

0:09

to something that matches what

0:11

I'm feeling. Play wordle or connections

0:13

and then swipe over to read

0:15

today's headlines. There's an article next

0:17

to a recipe, next to games,

0:19

and it's just easy to get everything

0:21

in one place. This app is essential.

0:23

The New York Times app. all

0:25

of the times, all in one

0:27

place. Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

0:30

Hey everyone, it's Anna. Before we

0:32

get started today, I just want to

0:34

ask a quick favor. We're working

0:36

on our Valentine's Day episode and we

0:38

want you to be a part of

0:40

it. Can you tell us about the

0:42

moment you knew you were falling in

0:45

love? Where were you? What was happening? What

0:47

did it feel like? It can be

0:49

about a relationship you're currently in

0:51

or a relationship from the past.

0:53

We just want to know about

0:55

the moment you could tell, hey, I'm

0:58

falling in love with this person. Record

1:00

your answer as a voice memo and

1:02

email it to Modern Love podcast at

1:04

nytimes.com. And we may end up featuring

1:07

it on the show. One more time,

1:09

tell us about the moment you knew

1:11

you were falling in love and send

1:13

it as a voice memo to Modern

1:15

Love podcast at nytimes.com. We are so

1:17

excited to hear from you,

1:20

if you want to be

1:22

included in the episode, your

1:24

deadline is February

1:27

5th. Okay, let's start the

1:29

show. Love now and all.

1:31

Love was stronger than anything

1:33

else. And I love you

1:36

more than anything. Love is

1:38

love. From the New York

1:40

Times, I'm Anna Martin. This

1:42

is modern love. Every week,

1:44

we bring you stories inspired

1:47

by the modern love column.

1:49

We talk about love, sex,

1:51

friends, family, and all the

1:53

messiness of human relationships. Our

1:55

guest this episode is singer-songwriter

1:58

Niko Case. Case

2:08

has been making music for

2:11

nearly three decades, and her

2:13

songs have always struck me

2:15

as so personal and emotional.

2:17

At the same time, though,

2:19

you can't really tell when

2:21

Case is writing as herself.

2:23

She's referred to a handful

2:26

of her songs as

2:28

autobiographical, but she also

2:30

weaves in fictional characters,

2:33

animals, even planets. case

2:39

has a new memoir coming out

2:41

this month, and she's clearly ready

2:43

to share some of the most

2:45

beautiful and brutal parts of

2:48

her life The memoir is called the

2:50

harder I fight the more I love

2:52

you in it She writes that her

2:54

parents got together then split up when

2:57

they were very young They barely had

2:59

the money or the time to meet

3:01

her basic needs, but what was

3:03

even more painful was how little

3:05

attention they gave her in heartbreaking

3:08

detail, then striking out on her

3:10

own as a teenager and creating

3:12

a chosen family through music. Today,

3:14

Niko Case reads a modern love

3:17

essay by a daughter who had

3:19

to cut her mother out of

3:21

her life in order to protect

3:23

herself. And Case tells me what

3:25

the absence of her mom when

3:28

she was younger means to her

3:30

now. Niko Case, welcome to modern

3:32

love. Thank you very much for

3:34

having me. Your new memoir opens

3:36

with a scene where you're playing

3:39

a show somewhere and you write,

3:41

I love a stranger and a

3:43

new city. I want to know

3:45

their stories. What is it that draws

3:48

you to people you don't know?

3:50

I just think they're really

3:52

surprising. And I think you

3:54

can find something in common

3:57

with pretty much anyone.

4:00

I think there's something attractive about every

4:02

person too. I mean, there are exceptions,

4:04

but for the most part, most people

4:07

have something attractive about them. And interesting.

4:09

Can you tell me how you attempt

4:11

to perhaps find that kind of common

4:13

ground with someone who might seem very

4:16

dissimilar to you? Well, it has to

4:18

be natural. You can't just bust up

4:20

to someone and... be like, tell me

4:23

about your childhood. Did you eat onions?

4:25

You know, you can't. I mean, you

4:27

can, I guess. But one of the

4:30

main ways to get people to talk

4:32

is if you ask them what's good

4:34

to eat in their city. And people

4:37

get really excited to tell you about

4:39

stuff like that. Or like, where do

4:41

you go to buy your records if

4:43

you want to buy from a... a

4:46

local person. I do feel like living

4:48

in this kind of unguarded way attempting

4:50

to connect with strangers is quite rare

4:53

for someone who has a public career

4:55

like yours. Does it strike you that

4:57

way? I'm not really that recognizable. I

5:00

have a very cubist face and I

5:02

wear my hair up a lot and

5:04

I look like a totally different person.

5:07

No way. Yeah, and I don't know,

5:09

I get away with it, which is

5:11

fine. I mean, I'm not like super

5:13

famous or anything anyway. People don't know

5:16

it's me unless they just saw me

5:18

on stage, I think. Do you like

5:20

that? I do. Because? Because you can

5:23

go to the grocery store and you

5:25

know. Well I am, I'm a little

5:27

nervous now because you just told me

5:30

where you stand on asking people about

5:32

their childhood when you've just met them,

5:34

but I hope you'll forgive me because

5:37

you have written... a new memoir that

5:39

is all about your childhood and you

5:41

really hold nothing back from your descriptions

5:44

of what your early life was like

5:46

and how hard things were for you

5:48

living with your parents as a kid.

5:50

Can you just give me a sort

5:53

of sketch of what life was like

5:55

for you growing up? Well I mean

5:57

if it was a school year I'd

6:00

live with my dad. quiet person, also

6:02

a drug addict, very depressed. He wasn't

6:04

awful or mean or anything, he just

6:07

wasn't really there. And I could not

6:09

get his attention. You know, we were

6:11

really poor and we lived in kind

6:14

of a crappy house that was kind

6:16

of wet and often there just wasn't

6:18

anything to eat. So what I would

6:20

do is I would just kind of

6:23

sit around and turn on the space

6:25

heater and sit in front of the

6:27

TV and watch like Gilligan's Island, which

6:30

I fucking hated. But I didn't have

6:32

anything else to do. You also mentioned

6:34

in your memoir that you spend, you

6:37

know, most of the time, the school

6:39

year at your dads, and then you

6:41

also spend summers at your moms. And

6:44

that's kind of where I feel like

6:46

the, you really get a sense of,

6:48

it wasn't just that your parents were

6:50

checked out, you were really neglected. And

6:53

I wonder if you can talk about

6:55

that period when you were functionally kind

6:57

of abandoned by your mom for hours.

7:00

Part of it was what was acceptable

7:02

in the 70s. You know, there's a

7:04

lot of Gen X jokes about, you

7:07

know, nobody raised us, but I, like,

7:09

my parents had to go to work.

7:11

We were poor. So I don't, I'm

7:14

not mad at them for not, you

7:16

know, being around. Like, I understand that

7:18

they had to go to work. Yeah.

7:20

Some of it was fun, you know,

7:23

some of it was like Huck Finn

7:25

style, but there were no other characters

7:27

in the story. It was just animals,

7:30

you know, my dogs and my cats

7:32

and we would go to the river

7:34

and it was so beautiful. And so

7:37

on that hand, it was a really

7:39

magical experience and on the other hand,

7:41

it was like a kid can only

7:44

take so much of that a day.

7:46

Yeah. It just felt like forever. But.

7:49

I was just always trying

7:51

to get people to notice

7:53

me, my parents. and to

7:55

even just like be with

7:57

me. I kind of thought

7:59

I was sort of this

8:01

extra thing that was around

8:03

that was kind of in

8:05

the way. But I didn't

8:07

think much of myself either,

8:09

so there wasn't like some

8:11

great rebellion at hand, because

8:13

I hadn't really connected the

8:15

things. It was just like,

8:17

this sucks. You felt discarded.

8:19

What were the ways that

8:21

you would try to get

8:23

their attention? Being good at

8:25

things like making pictures. I

8:27

tried to be a really

8:29

good artist I tried to

8:31

be really good at drawing

8:33

I Would learn a lot

8:35

of things and I didn't

8:37

know I was doing it

8:39

like Facts about animals or

8:41

You know what artists a

8:43

song was by or who

8:45

played base on that song

8:47

or what town that band

8:49

was for them. Yeah, just

8:51

like you know I know

8:53

a lot about animals or

8:55

just trying to seem useful

8:58

somehow. And did that work? Oh,

9:00

God, no. Was this a practice

9:02

that you continued as a kid,

9:05

but then into your sort of

9:07

teenage and adult life as well,

9:09

trying to get their attention, trying

9:11

to be useful or noticed? I

9:14

think I tried that into my,

9:16

you know, late 30s. I mean,

9:18

there were disconnects here and there,

9:20

but my dad, I feel, you

9:22

know, I understand him. Whereas my

9:25

mother, I don't. All I know,

9:27

like, I have a lot of

9:29

compassion for the fact that, you

9:31

know, she had a kid when

9:34

she was a kid and didn't

9:36

want the kid. It's like, yeah,

9:38

I don't blame you for being

9:40

bummed out and depressed, of course.

9:43

Yeah. Like as a little, little

9:45

kid, I didn't really understand that,

9:47

but I don't feel like a

9:49

loving... mother snatched away from me.

9:52

I feel like I always, you

9:54

know, it was always... conditional. Yeah,

9:56

I mean it really comes across

9:58

I was going to say in

10:00

your memoir that sort of feeling

10:03

of being unwanted is very visceral

10:05

for you and incredibly painful to

10:07

read about and you describe your

10:09

mom especially having a coldness towards

10:12

you in multiple scenes throughout the

10:14

book. Well when you know it

10:16

sucked but at the same time

10:18

it's like I thought everybody kind

10:21

of lived that way but then

10:23

every now and again I would

10:25

go over to a friend's house

10:27

or something and I'd be like

10:30

Wow, they're eating dinner and they're

10:32

talking to each other. And the

10:34

parents were around and they have

10:36

a pantry. There's a bunch of

10:38

food in there. You can just

10:41

eat it whenever you want. You

10:43

know, like you're warm in here.

10:45

What? There's food and stuff and

10:47

people like you and talk to

10:50

you and it's cool. And I

10:52

would be really shy, but then

10:54

they would talk to me and

10:56

I would be like, whoa. Maybe

10:59

I could live here somehow. What

11:01

did it feel like to know

11:03

that other families? related to each

11:05

other so differently than yours? It

11:08

was, it wasn't hopeful. It was

11:10

more like, are you kidding me?

11:12

Like, what's going on? Like, why

11:14

do I live a different way?

11:16

I mean, then again, you know,

11:19

I was also a kid, so

11:21

I didn't think really hard about

11:23

it. There was just, like, you

11:25

know, kind of a low-grade humming

11:28

of... I just

11:30

always wanted to get to the

11:32

next place. It's like, okay, well,

11:34

I'll get this over with. As

11:36

in childhood? Yeah, like, and maybe

11:38

I'll get to another place or,

11:40

you know, or if I was

11:42

around my grandmother, I felt wanted.

11:44

And so it'd be like, okay,

11:46

well, I guess I have like

11:49

six more weeks of school and

11:51

then maybe I'll go visit my

11:53

grandma. But you living with my

11:55

parents wasn't that. But

11:57

I've worked through a lot of

11:59

it. I mean, I've really... worked

12:01

really hard to make a space

12:04

for myself in all that and

12:06

to just go, yeah, that was

12:08

fucked up. You shouldn't have been

12:10

there. Well, I have a lot

12:13

more questions for you about some

12:15

of the things you've revealed when

12:17

it comes to your mom specifically

12:19

and how you did all that

12:21

work to process everything that happened

12:24

to you. But before we do

12:26

that, I would love for you

12:28

to read this modern love essay

12:30

that you've selected. Is there anything

12:33

you want to say to tee

12:35

up the essay why you chose

12:37

it, why it speaks to you?

12:39

Well, I chose it because this

12:42

person is desperate to find forgiveness

12:44

for their mother or I am

12:46

not. And I have a very

12:48

different view of forgiveness and think

12:50

that it is a really sacred,

12:53

amazing thing, but in certain situations

12:55

it's also a total crock and

12:57

a responsibility that should not be

12:59

put on someone who's already gone

13:02

through so much. You do not

13:04

have to forgive people. If that's

13:06

work for you, hell no! Hell

13:08

no! If you find forgiveness, you're

13:11

incredible, but if you don't find

13:13

forgiveness, you're incredible. It's not something

13:15

that you need to do to

13:17

be better. It's something you find

13:19

if you're lucky, but if you

13:22

want to work on yourself, the

13:24

goal is not for them. The

13:26

goal is for you. And if

13:28

forgiveness isn't in there, Who cares?

13:31

Like some things are unforgivable. Forgiveness

13:33

is beautiful, the real thing. It's

13:35

kind of like the concept of

13:37

justice. It's flaunted a lot, but

13:39

it's like, forgiveness and justice are

13:42

not one thing. They're kind of

13:44

in atmosphere. And they're a state

13:46

of being that's very organic and

13:48

alive. It's not a thing you

13:51

reach and then you're there and

13:53

then you're good. It's like, it

13:55

has to be a systemic. healthy

13:57

thing. What a way to prime

14:00

us for this essay. If you

14:02

are ready, I would love to

14:04

hear you read this. My mother

14:06

the stranger by Caitlin McCormick. Please.

14:08

What I just said is not

14:11

a reflection on Caitlin McCormick either,

14:13

because every single person's reaction to...

14:15

how their parents treat them is

14:17

theirs and it's super valid and

14:20

I don't think she's drinking the

14:22

coolator or anything. I didn't mean

14:24

it that way. I'm just saying

14:26

that's not what I chose. Totally,

14:29

no, no, no. I think that

14:31

came across. I mean what you're

14:33

saying is forgiveness is important to

14:35

her and as you said that's

14:37

beautiful and if that's something that

14:40

feels important to you to achieve

14:42

then sort of go forth you're

14:44

saying for you found that forgiveness

14:46

is not something that you are

14:49

something that you are, that you

14:51

are, that you need to give,

14:53

that you need to give, that

14:55

you need to give. Her choices

14:57

are hers and yours are yours

15:00

and I cannot wait to hear

15:02

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15:04

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painful. My

16:09

mother the stranger by Caitlin

16:11

McCormick I found so fun

16:13

an app I met her

16:16

at a red-lit wine bar

16:18

in the West Village She

16:21

was exactly as pictured except

16:23

a warmer moor aglow Sheepish

16:25

and charming with a full

16:28

laugh that I wanted to

16:30

swallow for myself She went

16:32

in for a hug when

16:35

I approached her I

16:37

already knew she was Australian. Over

16:39

text, I made her swear to

16:41

explain in person how she'd ended

16:43

up here. It was the gray

16:46

mush between Christmas and New Year's,

16:48

the only time New York feels

16:50

like finding a quiet, unlocked bedroom

16:52

at a party. It matched my

16:54

mood. Weeks earlier, I had gone

16:56

through a breakup that upset me

16:58

because it didn't upset me. Heartbreak

17:00

at 23, I decided, should have

17:02

felt like a great medieval slaying,

17:04

like being cut open. At

17:09

the wine bar, Soaf told me about

17:11

how her father had met her mother,

17:13

a born and raised New Yorker, when

17:15

he was visiting from Sydney decades ago.

17:18

Soaf was here for a few months

17:20

to spend time with her mother's side

17:22

of the family, while on summer break

17:24

from veterinary school. She hoped to move

17:26

to the city in the fall, finally

17:29

making good use of her dual citizenship.

17:31

And your mom lives in Sydney now,

17:33

I asked. Well, she did, Soaf said,

17:35

we lost her a few years ago,

17:38

actually. I almost asked her to repeat

17:40

herself to repeat herself. I wanted to

17:42

dissect her delivery. I couldn't believe she

17:44

had so effortlessly nailed a tone I'd

17:46

been chasing for the past three years.

17:49

In fact, I was so stunned that

17:51

I told her something I normally say

17:53

for the sixth date or the ninth

17:55

or never. I had also lost my

17:57

mother in a way. We were estranged.

18:00

I was good at being estranged from

18:02

my mother, and I was good

18:04

at making other people feel comfortable

18:06

about our estrangement. But I

18:08

was bad at talking about it. My

18:10

mother was an alcoholic, and not

18:12

the covert kind. She stole, lied,

18:15

and cheated. She spoke to me

18:17

only with cruelty, until, eventually, after

18:19

my parents separated several years ago,

18:21

I cut her off entirely. I

18:23

lived the adult life I did. with

18:26

a job I loved, friends who loved

18:28

me, and hobbies and interests, things that

18:30

eventually my mother had none of, not

18:32

despite our estrangement, but because of

18:35

it. I felt an obligation to

18:37

be a kind of estrangement poster

18:39

child, a living, breathing embodiment of,

18:42

look, life goes on. I went

18:44

to group therapy and solo therapy.

18:46

I hosted a legendary friendsgiving where

18:49

guests were required to bring a

18:51

dish their mother might have prepared.

18:54

I joked about mommy issues with

18:56

both irony and sincerity. Still, it

18:58

never stopped being hard. I owed

19:01

no one an explanation, in theory,

19:03

yet in practice I did. I

19:05

came out as gay often, but

19:07

I came out as someone without

19:09

a mother constantly. I never felt

19:12

that I had the right shorthand.

19:14

She was an unwell person, but

19:16

for the first 18 years

19:18

of my life, she had

19:20

been a beautiful, successful, sparkly

19:23

person. She loved me fiercely.

19:25

And then, in

19:27

only a matter of

19:30

years, she plummeted into

19:32

a dark cave where none

19:35

of us could follow.

19:37

How are you supposed

19:40

to let anybody in

19:42

again after such

19:44

betrayal? I had no

19:46

answer. Every day I

19:49

understood addiction less. I just

19:51

mean that I also don't

19:54

have a mom. It's absolutely

19:56

the same, Soaf said, and like everything

19:59

else, she told... I believed her. The

20:01

next day I hosted a New

20:03

Year's Eve dinner party. We ate Caesar

20:06

salad and french fries and

20:08

leek soup and drink wine

20:10

with funky paper labels. I

20:13

told everyone that the day

20:15

before I'd met someone sparkly.

20:17

On our second date we walked

20:20

30 blocks uptown along the park

20:22

to my apartment. Around strawberry fields,

20:24

she said an injured bird has

20:27

a fighting chance if it retains

20:29

its grip strength. She held her

20:31

finger out to me, like a

20:34

hooked talon to demonstrate.

20:36

She would leave in March, so

20:38

over the next few months I

20:40

broke all my own rules. Soaf

20:42

could see me twice in a

20:44

week, then three times, then four.

20:46

Soaf could meet my friends. Soaf

20:48

could come to Tuesday trivia. We

20:50

could be exclusive, but only until

20:52

she left. In

20:55

coming to know Sof, I also came to

20:57

know her mother. Here was her mother's

21:00

favorite cocktail bar, her favorite

21:02

French bistro, her childhood neighborhood.

21:04

Not only did Sof know New York

21:06

at least as well as I did, but

21:08

she knew it through her mother's eyes. I

21:10

envied the way she casually

21:13

slaughtered her mother into everyday

21:15

conversation, including and honoring her, as

21:18

if it cost nothing. It's different,

21:20

I said. Your mom was sick. Your

21:23

mom is also sick though, she told me.

21:25

I wondered what it would be like

21:27

to honor my mother in the same way.

21:29

To honor her with the kind

21:31

of absolution we usually reserve

21:34

for the dead. To mourn not who

21:36

she had become, but who she had

21:38

once been, and not worry whether it

21:40

was a grace she deserved. And so

21:42

I did exactly that. I tried

21:45

to relearn how to talk about

21:47

my mother. How to say that she

21:49

was a professional chef by trade. who

21:52

had served powerful people in cities all

21:54

over the country, including New York, that

21:57

simultaneously she had been the kind

21:59

of mother who paid taxes, blanched her

22:01

broccoli with good kosher salt,

22:03

and texted bimogies that said,

22:06

I'm so proud of you. I

22:08

started pointing out things that

22:10

reminded me of her. Work clogs

22:12

worn with dresses. Joan Osborne

22:14

and Joanie Mitchell. Any storefront

22:16

that used to be a dean in

22:19

Deluca. I wished I knew even more. Like

22:21

where, so many years ago, our mothers

22:23

could have passed each other on the

22:25

street. It was only then,

22:27

as things go, that out in

22:30

Arizona, my mother entered the hospital

22:32

for late stage liver disease.

22:34

First, the doctor's guess that she

22:36

had two or three years. This

22:38

became a month. I booked a flight

22:40

for a week out. Then finally, as

22:43

I took the subway to Queens

22:45

to meet Soaf's grandmother, it became

22:47

days. If you have something to

22:49

say, now would be the time to

22:51

come home. My father said, when I

22:54

got off at the earliest stop I

22:56

could. which happened to be City Field.

22:58

When Soaf met me in the

23:00

parking lot, I asked her in

23:03

so many words, and without the

23:05

prepared speech I had hoped to

23:07

give to be my girlfriend. The

23:10

next day, I flew to Tucson.

23:12

By the time my plane touched

23:14

down, after two layovers, my mom

23:17

was unconscious. My relationship with

23:19

my mother was a movie I

23:21

had put on pause to leave

23:23

the room. only to return to

23:26

find the credits playing.

23:28

I haven't decided if this was

23:30

her version of grace. I still

23:32

don't know what I would have

23:34

said besides, I love you and

23:36

I forgive you. And why don't

23:39

I know your favorite cafe

23:41

downtown? Why won't I ever know?

23:43

I have no choice but to

23:45

believe this was enough. Like love,

23:48

there is not much to say

23:50

about death that hasn't been said

23:52

before. It is often a lot of waiting

23:55

around. I gathered with aunts and uncles

23:57

and siblings as my mother lay in

23:59

hospice. We discussed whether we

24:01

liked the eggplant curry we

24:03

had ordered better than the

24:06

chicken. We played board games

24:08

and listened to my mother's

24:10

breathing, quieting to hear it

24:12

slow. Ultimately, we lost

24:14

her too. When I'm asked how I'm

24:17

doing, in that particular limp

24:19

tone that we use for

24:21

terrible things, I try on grief

24:23

truisms like old jeans. I say

24:26

I'm fine and also cut open

24:28

and also cut open. I

24:31

am like little red riding hood

24:33

lost in the woods. In my best

24:36

moments, though, I'm learning

24:38

to use these questions

24:40

to continue the work I started,

24:42

which is to say, I use them

24:44

to talk about my mother. I

24:46

attempt past tense. She

24:49

was beautiful and successful

24:51

and sparkly. She took her

24:53

shardene with ice. At the end

24:55

of each day... On the phone

24:57

with my girlfriend, 14 hours in

25:00

the future, I ask her questions.

25:02

Did you know, I ask with

25:04

urgency, about the smell of death,

25:06

about old voicemail messages,

25:08

about all matters of grief?

25:11

Yes, I know, she always says.

25:13

She says she likes the idea

25:15

that someone only dies the

25:17

last day someone says their

25:19

name. I like this truism

25:21

best of all. She

25:24

promises me

25:28

that we

25:31

have forever

25:34

to master

25:37

talking about

25:40

it. I

25:42

think we

25:44

must spend

25:48

forever

25:50

trying. It felt like

25:52

I was reading about

25:54

somebody who was healthy

25:56

and just I'm excited for her

25:58

that she has really nice girlfriend

26:01

who is so compassionate and

26:03

so cool to like put

26:05

put a nice runway out

26:07

for her to like Do

26:09

her tap dance on you

26:11

know what I mean? Yeah,

26:13

by tap dance you mean

26:15

to sort of understand her

26:17

own loss or her own

26:19

grief? Yeah, she's like come

26:21

on into my parlor and

26:23

do all the tap dancing

26:25

you want and you know

26:27

get it out and I'll

26:29

be here and I'll watch

26:31

and I'll actually be interested

26:33

and engage with you while

26:35

you're tap dancing You're reacting

26:37

to the the support of

26:39

sof throughout this essay. You're

26:41

saying that Caitlin has this

26:43

beautiful love that sort of

26:45

nurtures her through this very

26:47

difficult period of loss. Yes.

26:49

And also, you know, the

26:51

undercurrent, like, she doesn't understand.

26:53

And she'll never understand. But,

26:55

you know, accepting that you'll

26:57

never understand is okay. Dogs

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a mess-free experience. And it comes with

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a 30-day money back guarantee if your

27:37

dog doesn't lick the bowl clean. I'm

27:41

Jonathan Swan. I'm a White House reporter

27:43

for the New York Times. I have

27:45

a pretty unsentimental view of what we

27:47

do. Our job as reporters is to

27:49

dig out information that powerful people don't

27:52

want published, to take you into rooms

27:54

that you would not otherwise have access

27:56

to, to understand how some of the

27:58

big decisions shaping our country are being

28:01

made. painstakingly to go back and check

28:03

with sources, check with public documents, make

28:05

sure the information is correct. This is

28:07

not something you can outsource to AI,

28:10

there's no robot that can go and

28:12

talk to someone who was in the

28:14

situation room and find out what was

28:16

really said. In order to get actually

28:19

original information that's not public, that requires

28:21

human sources, and we actually need journalists

28:23

to do that. So as you may

28:25

have gathered from this long riff, I'm

28:28

asking you to consider subscribing to the

28:30

New York Times. Independent journalism is important,

28:32

and without you, we simply can't do

28:34

it. So,

28:54

Nico, can you talk about

28:56

any parallels between what Caitlin

28:58

wrote about her relationship with

29:01

her mom and your own

29:03

story about your mom? She's

29:05

a gnarly drunk. That's about

29:07

it. One thing in here

29:09

that really struck me is

29:11

when she says, every day

29:13

she understands addiction less. And

29:16

I've never heard it put

29:18

so simply, and it's a

29:20

really, really... strong sentence and

29:22

a really strong thought. It's

29:24

like, yeah, I understand addiction

29:26

less all the time too.

29:29

And, you know, there's all

29:31

of us that have been

29:33

abused by people who've, you

29:35

know, really struggled with addiction

29:37

and etc. And where is

29:39

our support? Like there's so

29:42

much support for people with

29:44

addiction, which is awesome. I'm

29:46

not saying that that's bad.

29:48

I'm just saying like inside

29:50

I have this inner like

29:52

struggle. Huh. Where is the

29:54

support? And like in my

29:57

life and in my daily

29:59

practice like no I do

30:01

not I'm not like begrudging

30:03

people treatment like absolutely and

30:05

if people have the strength

30:07

to do that like please

30:10

yes good save your life

30:12

is important we need to

30:14

save it you know and

30:16

it's important for people around

30:18

you you know but I

30:20

just I think about all

30:22

the people who were just

30:25

abandoned or there's there's no

30:28

It's just the most hollow place.

30:30

It is the loneliness most hollow

30:32

place. And I guess, and there,

30:34

you know, there is support for

30:37

people who've had parents who are

30:39

really abusive in that way, but

30:41

it's pretty thin. And people can

30:44

find each other and stuff, but

30:46

you know, abandonment and abuse is

30:48

a really big deal. I feel

30:50

like I can kind of hear

30:53

young Nico speaking through that answer

30:55

through what you just said. You

30:57

said it's a lonely place to

30:59

be and I can, I sort

31:02

of, I feel like I hear

31:04

child you speaking no emotions. That

31:06

lonely place never goes away, ever.

31:08

You talked about, you sort of

31:11

immediate reaction to this essay was

31:13

feeling very... happy for Caitlin that

31:15

she had the support in sof.

31:18

And I guess I wonder, hearing

31:20

you talk about the sort of

31:22

the grief that never leaves, the

31:24

loneliness that never leaves. In your

31:27

life, have you found a sof?

31:29

Have there been people that have

31:31

showed you a different way of

31:33

being or loving? Can you maybe

31:36

talk about someone in specific that

31:38

you would be able to share?

31:40

Well, I have a good friend

31:43

named Jennifer Ro House, and she's

31:45

married to my dear friend John

31:47

Rohouse. pedal steel in my band

31:49

and she she runs a nonprofit

31:52

organization called Peer Solutions where she

31:54

helps kids help other kids, you

31:56

know. talk about things. I said

31:58

something like, yeah, and I was

32:01

really upset and she has a

32:03

lot of kids who are trans

32:05

and, you know, just people from

32:08

all over the place who have

32:10

kind of been kind of shoved

32:12

aside for whatever reason, like all

32:14

the reasons that we're cruel to

32:17

people in our society. And she's

32:19

just so good at talking about

32:21

things. And I remember one day

32:23

I said something like, yeah, I

32:26

was really upset. And she goes,

32:28

Of course you are. Of course

32:30

you're upset. And I remember it

32:32

kind of gave me whiplash. I

32:35

was like, whoa, really? Yeah. And

32:37

then I felt like, okay, I

32:39

just grew a little muscle or

32:42

something or some little pocket was

32:44

filled up in a nice way.

32:46

Yeah, what about that was so

32:48

striking to you? I watch her

32:51

be compassionate to people all the

32:53

time and then, you know, she...

32:55

did it to me and you

32:57

know she went through horrible abuse

33:00

as a kid like absolutely surreal

33:02

horrible abuse and she's really loud

33:04

about it and her loudness I

33:07

think is something that made me

33:09

really accept it when she said

33:11

of course you're upset and she's

33:13

not afraid to be loud and

33:16

I always felt really what's the

33:18

word I just felt like I

33:20

wasn't the only person who was

33:22

loud and Because often you feel

33:25

like you're just screaming underwater and

33:27

no one can hear you. And

33:29

her saying, of course, validating that

33:31

emotion, felt like you were screaming

33:34

together. It's like, yeah, I'm not

33:36

the only person who's like, you

33:38

know, you're taught this set of

33:41

values as you're growing up by

33:43

the television. And they're supposed to

33:45

be American values or whatever, you

33:47

know, tell all the truth and

33:50

all the stuff. Nobody wants to

33:52

hear the fucking truth. Yeah. You

33:54

speak the truth, you're fucked. just

33:56

don't want to hang out with

33:59

you like it's too much work.

34:01

And I've always been that guy,

34:03

you know, I've always done the

34:06

person who's like... That's fucked up,

34:08

you know? It's tough though, you

34:10

know, with your own, with a

34:12

parent, for example, speaking the truth

34:15

to your mother about how you

34:17

were feeling or the loneliness you

34:19

were experiencing, it doesn't feel like

34:21

that was something that you were

34:24

able to do as a kid.

34:26

Well, they didn't have the words

34:28

for it, certainly. Yeah. I have

34:30

the words for it now. And,

34:33

you know, I did speak to

34:35

her as an adult. Right. About

34:37

those things with the correct words.

34:40

It just didn't make any difference.

34:42

I was going to say, what

34:44

did it feel like when you

34:46

voiced to your mom? It just

34:49

felt like the same water pouring

34:51

over you that poured over you

34:53

is when you're a little kid.

34:55

You know, it's like, it's just

34:58

the same bath. Here we are.

35:00

It feels like shit. I think,

35:02

you know, certainly under certain circumstances,

35:05

I could start crying or... But

35:07

I don't really, because I know

35:09

it's not my fault. It's not

35:11

my fault. But I'm also like,

35:14

she still sucks. I feel really

35:16

bad for her. And I really,

35:18

you know, there's part of me

35:20

that's like, she grew up in

35:23

kind of impossible circumstances. And, you

35:25

know, she went through a lot

35:27

of horrible things and abuse. And,

35:30

you know, I don't blame her

35:32

for that at all. And I

35:34

don't blame for her for having

35:36

me, you know, but... And it's

35:39

weird, you know, people think it's

35:41

really awful that I talk about

35:43

this, but abortion had just become

35:45

available at that time, and for

35:48

whatever reason, she didn't get an

35:50

abortion. And I'm sure she was

35:52

scared, and she was a kid.

35:54

So like, you know, any choice

35:57

she made at that point, I

35:59

wouldn't fault her for. But as

36:01

an unwanted child, do not make

36:04

fucking abortion illegal in this fucking

36:06

country. Like I cannot fucking believe

36:08

where we are right now. It

36:10

is disgusting. It is so Inhumane

36:13

and cruel to live an unwanted

36:15

child is the loneliest nadier. It

36:17

is the worst. I would so

36:19

much rather have given my mother

36:22

her life than be here now

36:24

because I spent my life thinking

36:26

that I ruined her life and

36:29

it's not okay for either one

36:31

of us. It is cruel. You

36:33

know, I know it's not my

36:35

fault. It strikes me that I

36:38

feel like Caitlin, the author of

36:40

this essay, goes through that type

36:42

of understanding, you know, in her

36:44

own way, where she realizes it's

36:47

nothing that she did. This was

36:49

a disease her mom was battling.

36:51

Is there a specific moment you

36:53

can point to in your own

36:56

life where... That really hit you

36:58

too? Like, this is not about

37:00

me. My mom's behavior towards me

37:03

is not because of something I

37:05

did. Like, is there a moment

37:07

that you can point to? Well,

37:09

I think I was kind of

37:12

probably near 40 when I finally

37:14

just understood what happened. And I

37:16

was like, oh my God. I

37:18

wanted to believe this whole story

37:21

so bad that I let the

37:23

most threadbare lies. stand in as

37:25

the truth for who she was.

37:28

But it wasn't who she was

37:30

at all. She didn't want a

37:32

kid. And the lengths that she

37:34

went to to not have a

37:37

kid are so extreme that it's

37:39

impossible not to be offended by

37:41

them. I mean, I'm not really

37:43

anymore because they're so outrageous that

37:46

I almost can't take them personally

37:48

anymore. Do you

37:50

want to share even just a

37:52

sort of high-level overview of what

37:54

those lies were? You don't need

37:56

to necessarily... Well, I thought for

37:58

my entire life up until I

38:00

was about... I guess 38 or

38:02

so, that my mom had had

38:05

cancer at one point. You thought

38:07

that she had cancer and that

38:09

was not true? No. No. She

38:11

used a fake, faking having cancer

38:13

to get away from me as

38:15

a way to disappear herself from

38:17

your life. Yes. And I would

38:19

ask her about it and she

38:21

was, you know... She wouldn't really

38:23

say much about it. Like I

38:25

had asked her what kind of

38:27

cancer she had because I'd be

38:29

going to the gynecologist or whatever.

38:31

I knew that it had to

38:33

do with her reproductive system. So

38:35

I realized that she had said

38:37

ovarian and cervical and she didn't

38:40

have both. So I would just

38:42

think that I forgot. Like when

38:44

I went to the gynecologist and

38:46

they're like, well, does your family

38:48

have a history of, you know,

38:50

these cancers, I wouldn't remember which

38:52

one she said to check the

38:54

box of. And then I finally

38:56

realized, I wasn't forgetting. She was

38:58

telling me different answers. You never

39:00

had fucking cancer? Wow. Oh my

39:02

God. I was just like, holy

39:04

shit, how did I not see

39:06

it? What I took away from

39:08

it was like, you wanted to

39:10

believe in her so bad. Yeah.

39:12

You wanted to have a mom.

39:15

You wanted to have a mom

39:17

that was coherent, that at some

39:19

point still wanted you. Yeah, and

39:21

I didn't want a mom. I

39:23

wanted her. I worshipped her. I

39:25

thought she was the most beautiful,

39:27

talented person. I thought she was

39:29

the coolest thing in the world.

39:31

And I wanted to be with

39:33

her all the time. And I

39:35

couldn't figure out why I never

39:37

was or why she wouldn't come

39:39

and save me. And of course

39:41

she was unhappy and... You know,

39:43

absolutely. She didn't really know what

39:45

to do, but her choices of

39:48

how to deal with that, like,

39:50

I have no respect for... I

39:52

don't know. I don't... It's been

39:54

a long time. I don't wish

39:56

to contact my mother, and I

39:58

hope she never contact me. Did

40:02

you ever feel like you

40:04

had to explain why your

40:07

mom was absent from your

40:09

life to other people? No.

40:11

Not at all. Tell me

40:13

why? Well, it's not unusual

40:15

to have grown up neglected

40:17

or abused. It's not unusual

40:19

to have a parent who

40:21

struggles with addiction. It's not

40:23

unusual to have a parent

40:25

who struggles with mental illness

40:27

and depression. So I will

40:29

say, yeah, my mother was

40:32

a fucking horrible person and,

40:34

you know, a really bad

40:36

drunk. And, you know, it's

40:38

unfortunate, but it's a really

40:40

common thing. So who cares

40:42

if I say it out

40:44

loud? Maybe someone will hear

40:46

it and feel like, oh.

40:48

You know, it's like the

40:50

statement, I understand addiction less

40:52

every year. Like I felt

40:55

very, I felt very grateful

40:57

to Caitlin McCormick for seeing

40:59

that because I had a

41:01

new sentence that was a

41:03

tool that was like, okay,

41:05

that is so true. I

41:07

understand addiction less and less

41:09

as well. that same experience

41:11

of having a new sentence

41:13

or sentences for themselves, I

41:15

think you are doing for

41:18

listeners what Caitlin did for

41:20

you. I hope so. I

41:22

mean, you know, there are

41:24

people who listen to me

41:26

because, you know, I write

41:28

songs and I don't take

41:30

that for granted and I

41:32

don't want to abuse that.

41:34

And if I didn't yell

41:36

the truth or what I

41:38

think is the truth, then

41:40

what good was I? All

41:43

I ever wanted was to

41:45

be useful, and maybe that's

41:47

what I'm useful for. Niko

41:49

Case, thank you. so much

41:51

for coming on the show

41:53

and talking to me today.

41:55

I'm honored to be here

41:57

talking with you. Thank you

41:59

for having me. You can

42:01

find a link to the

42:03

modern love essay you heard

42:06

today, Caitlin McCormick's My Mother,

42:08

The Stranger, In Our Show

42:10

Notes, and Nico Case's memoir,

42:12

The Harder I Fight, The

42:14

More I Love You, comes

42:16

out January 28th. It includes

42:18

similar childhood accounts to what

42:20

Kay shared in this episode

42:22

and many other memories from

42:24

her life. The Times was

42:26

not able to reach Case's

42:28

mother for comment. Her father

42:31

is deceased. This episode was

42:33

produced by Riva Goldberg with

42:35

help from Amy Pearl, Davis

42:37

Land, and Emily Lang. It

42:39

was edited by our executive

42:41

producer Jen Poiant, Production Management

42:43

by Christina Joseph. The modern

42:45

love music is by Dan

42:47

Powell. Original Music in this

42:49

episode by Marian Lozano, Pat

42:51

McCusker, Rowan Nemisto, Dan Powell.

42:54

and Carol Sabiro. This episode

42:56

is mixed by Sophia Landman,

42:58

with studio support from Maddie

43:00

Masiello, Daniel Ramirez, and Nick

43:02

Pittman. Special thanks to Mahima

43:04

Chablani, Mel Gologli, and Jeffrey

43:06

Miranda, and to our video

43:08

team, Brooke Minters, Sawyer Roquet,

43:10

and Eddie Costas. The Modern

43:12

Love Column is edited by

43:14

Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is

43:17

the editor of Modern Love

43:19

Projects. If you want to

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submit an essay or a

43:23

tiny love story to the

43:25

New York Times, the instructions

43:27

are in our show notes.

43:29

I'm Anna Anna Martin. Thanks

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for listening.