0:04

Welcome to the Moonbeaming

0:06

Podcast. I'm Sarah Faith

0:08

Gottastiner, an artist, author,

0:10

and intuitive. And together

0:12

we'll explore life through a

0:15

creative and spiritual lens. You'll

0:17

learn so much about mysticism,

0:20

creativity, consciousness, depth psychology, business,

0:22

and more. And you'll get

0:25

to listen to conversations with

0:27

luminaries that you won't hear

0:30

anywhere else. With

0:32

each episode, you'll receive

0:34

insights, frameworks, inspiration, and

0:37

tools to help you

0:39

thrive and grow. Hello,

0:42

welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

0:45

welcome, welcome, welcome,

0:47

welcome, welcome, welcome,

0:49

welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

0:52

welcome, welcome, through a creative

0:54

and intuitive lens. I'm so

0:56

happy you are here. Thank

0:58

you so much for being

1:00

here. What a year. What

1:03

a weird year. It was

1:05

good. It was hard. It

1:07

was all the things. I

1:09

think this is the part of

1:12

the year where we start to

1:14

reflect. And if similar to

1:17

me, you felt some pockets

1:19

of life happening to you.

1:21

or the year happening to

1:24

you or events happening to

1:26

you, you're not alone. And

1:28

now is the time

1:30

to begin to ground

1:32

down into some agency,

1:34

into some collaboration. And

1:36

the way we can

1:38

do that often is

1:40

through reflection and is

1:42

through opening our consciousness

1:44

up to think about

1:46

other possibilities. At the studio,

1:49

we are shipping out many

1:51

moons 2025. This is my

1:53

gift to the world, my

1:56

yearly gift to the world.

1:58

And if you... like this

2:00

podcast, you'll love many

2:02

moons. There's so much

2:04

more practice, there are

2:06

so many more prompts,

2:08

there is so much

2:10

more actionable information in

2:12

many moons that you'll

2:14

want to take with

2:16

you all throughout the

2:19

year and beyond. There

2:21

are dozens of rituals

2:23

and spells and tarot

2:25

spreads that aren't to

2:27

be used only in

2:29

the like day or week

2:31

or month that you're receiving

2:33

it but forever. You know, there

2:35

are tarot spreads for grief,

2:37

there are tarot spreads for clarity.

2:39

You can access that at

2:42

any time. There are rituals for

2:44

intuition and developing your

2:46

intuition for calling and

2:48

support. You can use

2:50

those rituals at any time,

2:52

at any time you

2:55

need them. So it really

2:57

is in its own

2:59

way this timeless product, this

3:01

timeless project that I

3:04

bring to you every

3:06

year. And today's

3:08

guest was one

3:10

of the contributors. I am

3:12

thrilled. This is the

3:14

other part of many moons.

3:16

It's this collaborative project

3:18

where I invite other practitioners,

3:21

creatives, writers,

3:24

thinkers, just generally

3:26

inspiring people to

3:28

contribute a piece

3:31

for a new moon a

3:40

tarot spread recipe, something

3:43

to bring you

3:45

closer into yourself,

3:47

and also closer

3:49

into collaboration with

3:51

the living world

3:53

around you. And

3:56

my guest today has

3:58

a ton of experience

4:00

around doing just that.

4:03

Today on the podcast,

4:05

I have the one

4:08

and only Jacqueline Suskin.

4:10

Jacqueline Suskin is a

4:12

poet, an educator, who

4:15

has composed over 40,000

4:17

improvisational poems with her

4:20

ongoing writing project Poems

4:22

store. Suskin is the

4:25

author of eight books,

4:27

including The Edge of

4:29

the Continent, volumes one

4:32

and three, Help in

4:34

the Dark Season, Every

4:37

Day is a poem,

4:39

and a year in

4:41

practice with work featured

4:44

in various publications, including

4:46

The New York Times,

4:49

the Atlantic, and the

4:51

Los Angeles Times, an

4:53

ecstatic earth worshipper. She

4:56

lives in Detroit where

4:58

she works as a

5:01

teaching artist with inside

5:03

out literary arts, bringing

5:05

nature poetry into classrooms

5:08

with her poem, forest,

5:10

curriculum. This was a

5:13

beautiful conversation where we

5:15

talked about the qualities

5:18

of poetry, aka... what

5:20

the different components are

5:22

of engaging with various

5:25

muses. Jacqueline talked a

5:27

lot about how she

5:30

collaborates with nature and

5:32

how nature can be

5:34

both healer and teacher,

5:37

especially for those of

5:39

us who have perhaps

5:42

been hurt or harmed

5:44

by humans. and may

5:46

need some other forms

5:49

of teachers and attunements.

5:51

Jacqueline talked about how

5:54

she knew how to

5:56

start her project poems.

5:59

store and

6:01

how she knew when to

6:03

end it. So

6:06

if you're interested in

6:08

beginnings and how to

6:10

know if something is

6:12

right for you. And if

6:14

you're also curious about how

6:16

to end something when something

6:18

is complete, you're going to

6:20

want to listen in and

6:23

so much more. This was

6:25

just such a gorgeous, rich

6:27

poetic walk -a -walka. I know

6:29

I'm corny everybody, but it

6:31

really was. It was a

6:33

poetic conversation, and I am

6:35

thrilled that Jacqueline was a

6:37

contributor to Many Moons, dream,

6:39

dream, dream guest, dream, dream

6:41

collaborator. And when you

6:43

read her piece for Many

6:45

Moons or introduce yourself

6:47

to her work, you will

6:49

understand why here is

6:51

my conversation with Jacqueline Susskin.

7:04

I'm so excited to

7:06

talk to you. I

7:08

wanted to begin with

7:10

poems, specifically 40

7:14

,000 poems,

7:18

over 40 ,000 poems. How

7:20

does one create so

7:23

much art? Yeah.

7:27

Yeah. And those are just the spontaneous

7:29

poems. So those are the poems

7:31

that kind of come off the top

7:33

of the head in the, like,

7:35

you know, improvisational project that I worked

7:37

with for a long time called

7:39

Poem Store. So those are just poems

7:41

that I've written on the typewriter

7:43

for people in person in sort of

7:45

a performance piece kind of setting

7:47

or in public spaces. But I've also

7:49

written a lot of books of

7:51

poetry too, and those come out completely

7:53

differently. Those are not, well, they're

7:55

not unpolished. And the spontaneous, you know,

7:57

muse that strikes first, then second. kind

8:00

of gets tweaked and the editing muse

8:02

comes in with those, so I don't even

8:04

know how many poems are in those books. Yeah,

8:07

so I wanted to talk

8:10

a little bit about improv poetry

8:12

and maybe

8:14

it's link to

8:16

channeling energy.

8:20

Can you talk a little bit about

8:22

what it feels like to write a

8:24

poem? And I've read

8:26

some of those poems and

8:28

you could have fooled me that they

8:30

were like improv and not finished and

8:33

you know all of that. So can you

8:35

just share a little bit about what

8:37

it feels like to spontaneously improv channel

8:39

a poem? When

8:42

I would do this, you know, I'm writing for

8:44

someone typically who's in front of me. I'm

8:46

having an actual exchange with a

8:49

person. So I am channeling something

8:51

and it's something that comes from

8:53

that connection. So whatever they ask

8:55

for, they get to choose what

8:57

the poem is about. So it's interesting

8:59

because on my own time

9:01

there is still this sense

9:04

of communing with something else.

9:06

And I think that's what

9:08

most poets do. They commune

9:10

with something macro that they

9:12

then filter into the micro.

9:14

And that is like the

9:16

talent or the skill of

9:18

the poet. But then to

9:20

include this other person, there's then

9:22

this kind of connection and

9:24

bond that happens within the writing.

9:26

So I'm looking at those

9:28

poems as this translation of what

9:30

occurs between us. So they're

9:33

offering something usually very vulnerable. The

9:35

subject matter is something that

9:37

they're yearning for or looking for,

9:39

something that they're grieving or

9:41

celebrating. I'm witnessing them tell me

9:43

about it in sometimes a

9:45

single word and sometimes many words.

9:48

And then I'm feeling whatever comes

9:50

up in that. And honestly, my

9:53

favorite part about the

9:55

experience is that

9:57

when I'm writing the poem, I don't have anything. thoughts.

10:00

I'm not hearing the words come one

10:02

after another. It's more of like a

10:04

trance state. And every time at the

10:06

end, I say, can I read it

10:08

to you? Because I want to know

10:10

what I wrote. And I have to

10:12

tune into it in that way where

10:14

I can hear myself say the words

10:16

out loud to them. And then I

10:18

can kind of know what stands between

10:21

us. So I feel like the poems

10:23

are like spells. They're

10:25

like definitions almost for

10:27

that particular person's question.

10:29

They're like a prayer

10:31

response. And that

10:33

that's making a unique

10:36

part of the craft come

10:38

forward because not all poetry is like

10:40

that. Not all poetry comes as this

10:42

communication between, you know, the poet and

10:44

another person. So that feels like that's

10:46

been a really special part of that

10:48

project for me. What

10:51

is your experience of

10:53

bringing poetry through when it

10:56

is not on the

10:58

spot improv channeling? My

11:00

most common experience, I'm just trying to

11:03

think of this morning. You know, this

11:05

morning, I woke up really early. I

11:07

love to wake up before anyone else

11:09

is up and kind of be with

11:11

the sunrise. And that's like my most

11:13

favorite time to write also. So when

11:15

it's really quiet, and I let the

11:18

dog out and the sun was doing

11:20

something that I've never seen it do

11:22

before here. And this I'm in

11:24

my new home, there's like this whole

11:26

newness to every day here. But

11:28

the sun was doing something very particular. And

11:30

I instantly knew that I needed to

11:32

write about it. So sometimes I think

11:34

there's like a feeling that enters my

11:36

body and I don't actually know what

11:38

the words will be. So it can

11:40

be very bodily. And then sometimes I

11:42

will wake up in the night with

11:45

a poem forming and I have to

11:47

just get out of bed and go

11:49

get my paper in my pen and

11:51

get right to it. And that is

11:53

more of like, yes, there are words

11:55

and I can hear them and they're

11:57

being asked to come onto the page.

12:00

But I think a lot

12:02

of times there'll be these

12:04

moments in life where there'll be

12:06

something really profound that I

12:08

feel and I will immediately connect

12:10

it to with whatever I'm

12:12

looking at or when I'm hearing

12:14

or what my senses are

12:16

picking up on. So there's something

12:18

like I said before about

12:20

this bridge between the macro and

12:22

the micro where I'm witnessing

12:24

something small and earthly. And then

12:26

I'm able to build this

12:29

bridge between that and something

12:31

like huge and divine or

12:33

cosmic. And that almost feels like

12:35

a task that has been

12:37

placed upon me and not as a

12:39

burden as like a joyous task, but

12:41

that it's mine to carry through that

12:43

bridge built like I have to build

12:45

the bridge and called to do it.

12:48

And sometimes that's trickier than other times

12:50

like I spend a long time

12:52

meticulously crafting the bridge and going

12:54

back to it and figuring out

12:56

just the right word or just

12:58

the right structure or cadence. But

13:00

then other times the poem delivers

13:02

itself almost fully formed. And I

13:04

think that there are moments I

13:06

liked the way you said is

13:08

it sitting in the corner of

13:10

the room as it because sometimes

13:12

it is clear to me that

13:14

something else is is delivering the

13:17

message. And then other moments are

13:19

clearly like of my own body

13:21

or my own experience and sometimes

13:23

it's a blend of those things.

13:25

A conversation is happening even if

13:27

there isn't another person between myself

13:30

and the earth or the animals

13:32

and the creatures that I come

13:34

in contact with or things like

13:36

that. There'll be these pieces of

13:38

I like to call it data. I

13:40

constantly feel like I'm like a

13:42

data collector and that maybe my

13:45

job on planet earth is just

13:47

to like collect and reflect these

13:49

things that I witness and that

13:51

that data collection is what I'm here

13:53

to do. And I like that

13:55

feeling it kind of gives this groundedness

13:57

to it like it's a task

13:59

but like. set a joyous task. When

14:03

the poem writing is not

14:06

so joyous when you might

14:08

feel blocked or when it

14:10

feels more challenging or when you

14:12

might feel frustrated, do you have

14:14

any rituals that you do? Yeah.

14:17

I think the I love

14:19

to talk about this concept

14:21

of writer's block because I

14:23

think it's like a really

14:25

unique... I don't actually identify

14:27

with certain parts of it because I

14:29

think that most of the time,

14:32

if I don't have something to write about

14:34

or I don't know what to say, it's

14:36

not necessarily that I feel blocked. It's

14:38

that I'm just being patient and waiting and

14:40

sometimes I need to rest. And so I'll

14:43

be like, okay, I just take that as

14:45

the genuine gesture of you need to rest

14:47

now and I'll follow the lead of that.

14:49

But I do have a lot of rituals

14:51

for helping me with discipline because I do

14:53

think that showing up to be able to

14:55

write is a big piece of that. And

14:57

there's a lot of discipline that has to

14:59

happen to make the time and the space

15:02

for all of that. Not just to come

15:04

through but to get yourself in the habit

15:06

of having the paper and the pen next

15:08

to your bed, of letting yourself have a

15:10

space where you can... I

15:12

feel like the deepest piece of that

15:14

for me is just accepting that

15:17

this is my role in the world

15:19

and what could I do in

15:21

my daily life to make that a

15:23

more feasible thing that I can

15:25

access? So simple things like that. Like

15:27

I have a little notebook everywhere

15:29

and I always allow myself to let

15:31

whatever's coming through come through. But

15:34

then I also love to just relax

15:36

with it because I don't

15:38

think that the muse likes to

15:40

be grasped at. And so sometimes

15:42

that also looks like focus and

15:44

enhancing my focus. So if I'm

15:46

trying to focus on one project,

15:48

because I have many ideas, there's

15:50

plenty of things I'd like to

15:52

write all day long every day.

15:54

I'll light a certain candle and

15:56

say, okay, this candle is lit

15:58

while I'm... working only on this.

16:01

And that signifies that for me.

16:03

And sometimes it just helps to

16:05

have little bits of focus like

16:07

that. But I will

16:09

say that, you know, having

16:11

a rhythm and ritual that I

16:13

can rely on every day is

16:15

a huge part of my practice

16:17

of just being alive. And I

16:19

think that that lends itself to

16:21

what it is to be a

16:23

poet, because that's kind of part

16:25

of my every moment. So to

16:27

have this ritualized practice life does enhance

16:29

my ability to then do all these

16:31

other things that allow me to

16:33

believe in my craft or give myself

16:36

the time in the space for

16:38

writing the things that come to me

16:40

throughout the day. I

16:43

want to go backwards a little

16:45

bit and stay there for a moment

16:47

where you said that you were

16:49

a data collector. At

16:52

another point you

16:54

said something, I'm paraphrasing, something

16:56

along the lines of like, this

16:58

is my role, like this is

17:00

what I'm here to do in

17:02

terms of being a writer. When

17:05

did you know that? How can you be

17:08

so sure? How do you

17:10

think about purpose? How do

17:12

you think about what you

17:14

are contributing and why I'd

17:16

love to hear whatever

17:18

comes forward for you

17:20

around that? Yeah, I

17:22

love thinking about, there's

17:25

a lot of gratitude in that

17:27

for me. I feel really

17:29

grateful to know that this is

17:31

what I'm here to do.

17:33

I don't take that lightly at

17:35

all. I'm kind of amazed

17:37

that that's possible because I do

17:39

notice from being connected and

17:41

close to various people who are just

17:43

constantly trying to sharpen what their

17:45

purpose is and looking for it and

17:47

longing for it. I know there's

17:49

a lot of pain around that and

17:52

a lot of just like deep desire.

17:54

Whenever I talk about this, it's

17:56

like, obviously, it sounds really easy

17:58

for me and it's fun. because

18:00

it kind of is in a

18:02

way I've been like this ever

18:04

since I was a child. So

18:07

that's a big part of it

18:09

is I was writing poems before

18:11

I even knew what poems were

18:13

and I have all these little

18:15

notebooks full of all this weird

18:17

cryptic language before I really understood

18:20

how to write well I was

18:22

still I was drawn to write

18:24

and no one told me to

18:26

do that you know no one

18:28

said you know try to have

18:31

a journal I just that's what

18:33

I liked to do and so

18:35

I think there's a piece of

18:37

whatever comes through in our childhood

18:39

state and whatever, you know, I

18:41

had a particularly difficult childhood. So

18:44

I think that holding those things

18:46

from my childhood and kind of

18:48

keeping that space for myself and

18:50

the things that felt safe and

18:52

sacred to me, even as a

18:55

very, very young person, was sort

18:57

of the way I protected myself,

18:59

and that maybe that has allowed

19:01

me to then accept that as

19:03

something that I would never budge

19:05

on. I think that that's a

19:08

big piece of why that feels

19:10

so confident. I feel so confident

19:12

around that as my purpose also.

19:14

But then I've also felt... the

19:16

response from the world in a

19:19

way that is unique. Like being

19:21

a person who put myself in

19:23

public doing this for so many

19:25

years and witnessing person after person

19:27

after person receive these words, that's

19:29

very unique for a writer. You

19:32

know, you don't usually get to

19:34

watch your reader respond to your

19:36

work. And so I think there

19:38

was something in that that also

19:40

boosted that sense of like confidence

19:43

around my purpose. There's so much

19:45

there. We just did the Moon

19:47

Studio facilitated the artist's way. So

19:49

it was like full of feelings

19:51

and inner child healing. And have

19:53

you ever done that? Oh yeah.

19:56

I think that's so fascinating that

19:58

part about the intuitive childhood instinct.

20:00

as well as the saving

20:03

fragment or

20:05

the protection

20:08

stone or something

20:11

that you like take

20:13

with you as like

20:16

this was me like

20:18

in spite of everything

20:22

maybe because

20:24

of everything like

20:26

this was me

20:28

to create. So I love

20:31

that, I love that, and I love

20:33

the response from the world. And

20:35

so I wanted to ask you,

20:37

I think I had heard of

20:39

you because I live in LA and

20:42

I don't think I ever like saw

20:44

you or got a poem from

20:46

you, but I think I like knew

20:48

about you from Friends of Friends

20:50

of Friends or something. And

20:53

it was a big deal.

20:55

Like people knew about, was

20:57

it called Home Store. Yeah. Yeah, and

20:59

so you did it for a really

21:01

long time. And can you just explain

21:04

to the listeners who might not

21:06

be familiar? One, the origin story

21:08

of it inside of you, like

21:10

what made you, you know, want

21:12

to do this? What it was?

21:14

Because I think we forgot that part

21:16

when you were kind of talking

21:19

about it. I just want to

21:21

hear about it because it's maybe

21:23

as a writer, you know, a lot

21:25

of writers are fairly introverted.

21:27

And a lot of writers need time

21:29

with their work, right? Like you said,

21:31

like there's this editing process, you know,

21:34

you put it in the drawer, you

21:36

like read it out loud, then it's

21:38

like, you know, you deliver it out

21:40

to the public or to your readers.

21:42

It was a very brave thing, I

21:44

think, but it's also really fun

21:46

and changes the way we can

21:49

utilize creativity. Yeah, one of the

21:51

ways I like to talk about

21:53

poem store. is that it

21:55

was a project that

21:58

encapsulated some of my... greatest

22:00

skills. And one of those skills

22:03

is writing, but the other skill

22:05

that I think it really allowed

22:07

me to lean into is the

22:09

skill of connection and connecting really

22:11

deeply. And there's like a

22:13

performative aspect of

22:16

that project that I think is really

22:18

unique to being a writer. Like you

22:20

said, a lot of writers are introverted

22:22

and I am in many ways like

22:24

I get my energy from being alone.

22:26

I'm an only child, like that's where

22:28

I restore and feel myself by being

22:30

alone. And I love solitude and I

22:32

love to be the hermit. But

22:35

I also am a performer and

22:37

I've always been a performer. As

22:40

a kid, you know, I would

22:42

put on these little shows for

22:44

my family and there's something about

22:46

expressing myself as myself, not pretending

22:48

to be someone else, but just

22:50

showing people who I am and inviting

22:52

them into that. And and seeing what

22:54

happens when you give that energy. And

22:56

so poem store sort of allowed me

22:59

to do all of that in one

23:01

space. And the way that that started

23:03

was I have a degree in poetry.

23:05

And so most people who get a

23:07

degree in poetry end up going, you

23:09

know, to get their masters and probably

23:11

their PhD and they'll teach and that's

23:13

the most common route for a poet. But

23:16

I had no interest in doing that because

23:18

I wanted to like have things to

23:20

write about. I wanted to have experiences. And

23:22

so I let myself just kind of

23:24

keep going in the world. And I met

23:26

someone in Oakland who was doing this,

23:28

who had a typewriter. And our friends introduced

23:30

us just because, you know, someone being

23:32

a poet is usually it's kind of rare,

23:34

you know, I don't meet a lot

23:36

of people who identify as that or who

23:38

are excited to, you know, talk about

23:40

poetry at length. So my friends were like,

23:42

you need to meet this person. And

23:44

he invited me to do this with him.

23:46

And I had just bought a

23:48

typewriter at the Rose

23:51

Bowl in in Pasadena. And

23:53

I had just bought this

23:55

typewriter. So instantly, I was

23:57

like, that's so bizarre

23:59

and course I'm going to follow through on

24:01

this and I showed up the next day with

24:03

the typewriter and he was like you know I

24:05

invite people to do this with me all the

24:08

time and no one ever says yes. I sat

24:10

with him on this first day and this woman

24:12

came up to me and she was like I

24:14

would like a poem about heartbreak. But not the

24:16

regular kind of heartbreak, but like when

24:18

you look back on your life and

24:21

there's all these things that you didn't

24:23

get to do Because you can't do

24:25

everything and it's heartbreaking and you couldn't

24:27

love everyone you wanted to love because

24:29

you can't love everyone and it's heartbreaking

24:31

And you can go to all the

24:33

places that you wanted to go because

24:35

you can't go everywhere and it's heartbreaking

24:37

and I was like holy moly like

24:40

this is way more Yeah, I was

24:42

like, let's go. And I wrote the

24:44

poem and she cried and I cried

24:46

and I was just like, this is

24:48

something I could feel it

24:50

in that first moment. Like

24:52

this is a opportunity for

24:54

me to engage in some

24:56

sort of communion with humanity.

24:58

And it's really showed me

25:00

the human condition in this

25:02

way that I will forever carry

25:04

with me my whole life.

25:07

It's allowed me to understand

25:09

what it is to be

25:11

in service in this really

25:13

unique, like one-on-one way. And so

25:15

that led me to so many

25:17

different things. You know, I have

25:19

written eight books, and because

25:21

of that project, all of those

25:24

books came to life. Like, there's...

25:26

pathways that that project opened up

25:28

for me. And so it is

25:30

funny to think of it as

25:33

something like it was brave for

25:35

me to sit myself in that

25:37

public place. It was

25:39

also the most psychically exhausting

25:41

thing I've ever done. It was

25:43

a really, really intense thing to

25:45

do. But I think it was

25:48

clear that it needed to happen

25:50

in order for me to kind

25:52

of It didn't want to just

25:54

conceptualize what was possible

25:56

through poetry. And a lot of

25:58

times as artists... That's what

26:00

we have to do because you

26:03

aren't usually in a position

26:05

to, like I said, witness a

26:07

person receiving what you're giving

26:09

them. But to have that happen

26:12

over and over again, I think

26:14

it allowed me to be this person

26:16

who can fully believe in the power

26:18

of art in this way that is

26:21

like not just conceptual. I love that

26:23

so much. How did you know

26:25

it was time to end it?

26:27

I started to get... Well, it

26:29

was physically really hard on me.

26:31

Like, I had a lot of

26:33

physical stuff come up, like learning

26:36

how to let people's energy pass

26:38

through me and learning how to

26:40

protect myself. And, you know, I

26:42

started doing this when I was

26:45

really young and I think I

26:47

like fully drained my battery in

26:49

a way that I will probably

26:51

spend the rest of my life

26:53

recovering from. And there's a lot

26:56

of, I don't. I don't have grief

26:58

in that because I don't think it

27:00

could have happened any other way. I

27:02

didn't have the information

27:04

really, you know, I didn't know what

27:07

was happening. So there's no other

27:09

way. But I knew that it

27:11

needed to stop because I could

27:13

feel that exhaustion and it was

27:15

just clear to me that it

27:17

would be like detrimental for my

27:20

health if I didn't stop. And

27:22

I also... liked the idea of letting

27:24

Palm Store be what it was and

27:26

not pushing it and being I always

27:28

I always said I don't want to

27:31

be 40 years old at the farmers

27:33

market with a typewriter on my lap.

27:35

It just doesn't feel right. That's not

27:37

the vision I'm I'm moving towards is

27:39

to like take this into my you

27:41

know second half of life and just

27:44

do that forever and ever and push

27:46

it to its limit. I would like

27:48

it to just be this sort of

27:50

sacred container and so it became clear

27:52

that that needed to stop. And

27:54

I still write poems for

27:56

people. I still do. I still

27:59

get commissions. the time, I get

28:01

past, you know, clients who are like,

28:03

I want you to write, you know,

28:05

for my anniversary or I'm going through

28:08

a really hard time and I would

28:10

love to have a poem, you

28:12

know, that people still reach out

28:14

to me for poems and I

28:16

love getting to write them from

28:18

the safety of my own home.

28:20

And I can imagine a future

28:22

situation where I could nurture that project

28:25

to come back to life for

28:27

a minute and and give that

28:29

to people because it is really

28:31

it's one of the most beautiful

28:34

things I think I can offer,

28:36

but it's also like I have

28:38

to protect myself. I've learned so

28:40

much about that from this experience.

28:42

Oh yeah, that's a I know

28:45

other podcast. I teach whole

28:47

classes on that topic, energetic

28:49

hygiene and protection magic. I'm

28:52

really curious about

28:54

what qualities you

28:56

think you need or you

28:59

think a living poet

29:01

needs in order to

29:03

write poetry because

29:05

there's something about

29:08

poems. Poems are one

29:10

of the most for

29:12

me personally, they

29:14

impact me a lot, but

29:16

they also feel very far

29:19

away. from me in terms

29:21

of creating one. Like, they're

29:24

very deceptive, but

29:26

there's just so few words,

29:28

but it's doing so much. I'm

29:30

a fan of shorter poems. I'm

29:32

not a huge fan of the,

29:34

like, chapter, long, that's just

29:37

me personally. I like a nice

29:39

contained poem, and then I'm

29:42

just like, whoa. But when I

29:44

sit down to write it, I'm

29:46

like, wow, this is really hard.

29:48

This is like really challenging because

29:50

you're pulling in so much. There's

29:52

so much there. And so I

29:54

was wondering, you know, it seems

29:56

like you have just a natural

29:59

affinity towards it. But when you

30:01

kind of like sit down

30:03

to think about what some

30:05

of the qualities of a

30:07

good poem are or qualities of

30:10

a live poet are, what do

30:12

you think they are? Yeah, I

30:14

think that there is something about

30:17

the way a poem synthesizes

30:19

so many things

30:21

and condenses it

30:24

into this tight, very cared

30:26

for expression. And

30:28

I think that First and foremost,

30:31

there has to be this deep

30:33

love of language and a

30:35

curiosity around language and a

30:37

desire to kind of pick

30:39

apart words. And the magic

30:41

of language is so complex

30:44

and old and is always

30:46

shifting and always changing. And

30:48

it's this ever expanding growing

30:50

thing. So there has to

30:52

be this, I think, deep interest in

30:54

that. You have to be so

30:57

curious about words. And On top

30:59

of that, there has to be

31:01

this great quality of observation.

31:04

You have to be an observer

31:06

to an extent that maybe other

31:08

people... I like to think of

31:10

it as that not everyone has

31:12

time to do that, or

31:15

not everyone prioritizes that. I

31:17

think it's very human to

31:19

do any of these things.

31:21

I actually think poetry lives

31:23

in people. It's a people's...

31:25

kind of tool. I think of

31:27

it as a tool. And I

31:29

think that some people are more

31:31

inclined to create the tool and

31:33

sharpen the tool and craft the

31:36

tool and then some people are

31:38

like, let me just receive the

31:40

tool. I'll use it to better

31:42

understand myself. And the poet is

31:44

writing and doing that also. So

31:46

there has to be this level

31:48

of observation that goes like beyond

31:50

the minuscule and the tiny and

31:52

back to the macro and the

31:54

cosmic and that you have to

31:56

be kind of willing to be

31:58

pulled in all these directions. and I'll

32:00

feel a poem building in me for

32:02

days and days. You know, I'll

32:05

feel something like coming to me.

32:07

And so I also think that

32:09

there's a big patience in it.

32:11

There's like a huge level of

32:13

patience. And then sometimes the muse

32:15

will hit in this way where it's

32:18

just like the impact is so

32:20

intense and you have to give yourself

32:22

that time and space to write it.

32:24

But I could imagine that being

32:27

too much for some people. Like

32:29

too much pressure too much

32:31

impact too much force and

32:33

that maybe that's not right

32:35

for everyone to be the

32:37

translator of so much and

32:39

I've written poems about The task

32:42

of translation and how it is

32:44

a large task and not everyone

32:46

is suited to sift through so

32:49

much information like that and I

32:51

think I said it before where

32:53

to me. It's joyous, but I

32:56

could imagine it's also It's a lot.

32:58

I could imagine it being way too

33:00

much for someone who isn't inclined to

33:02

kind of sit there with it. And then

33:05

I think the final piece of that, I

33:07

mean, I could talk about poetry and what

33:09

it is to be a poet for hours,

33:11

because I think it's really, I think

33:13

it's really particular, but like I said,

33:15

I also think it's very human, so

33:17

there's so many things that kind of

33:20

come in and out of it, but

33:22

I do think that there is this

33:24

quality of being able to dissect what

33:26

you have created. and to have this

33:29

desire to make it more accessible and

33:31

maybe more interesting and more polished.

33:33

And that I talk about it

33:35

like there's these different muses. There's

33:37

this muse who delivers the inspiration.

33:40

And some people only want that

33:42

muse. Some people just want the

33:44

inspiration delivered. They want to write

33:46

that in their journal. They want

33:48

to just let it flow through.

33:50

And that's great. Just that you

33:52

are a poet also if you

33:55

do that. But then there's this

33:57

next step with this editing muse,

33:59

this other. muse who comes who's

34:01

like, hey, we're going to sharpen

34:03

this and make this so

34:05

incredibly either accessible or deeper

34:08

or we're going to pay

34:10

tribute to that first muse.

34:12

And that is a task and

34:14

you have to commune with this

34:16

other muse to make that task

34:18

happen. And I think that really

34:21

is what makes a poet go

34:23

from good to great. Is this

34:25

ability to kind of say, okay,

34:27

yes, I wrote this initial thing.

34:29

I love it, I see it, but

34:31

will other people see it? Is

34:34

it actually, have I

34:36

gone to the limit that I

34:38

can go to with it? Have

34:40

I pushed myself to... really craft

34:42

it and change it. And that's

34:44

also the difference between something spontaneous

34:47

and then something that you sit

34:49

with for a long time and

34:51

you take care of and you

34:53

really tweak. And I think when

34:55

you're talking about, you know, looking

34:57

at a poem that's offered up

34:59

to you in a book or

35:01

somewhere that someone's taken so

35:03

much time to find the exact

35:05

right words for. And it is

35:07

almost like a, it could be

35:10

painstaking. But it's an enjoyable. effort.

35:12

How do you know when a poem

35:14

is done? I actually think I feel

35:16

it in my body. That's

35:18

probably what my answer is.

35:20

I will read a poem

35:22

out loud over and over

35:24

again. I'll consider every word

35:27

and then suddenly I'll just

35:29

receive this bodily feeling that's...

35:31

like a release or something, like I

35:33

can feel kind of like a, or

35:35

a spark, you know, something that just

35:37

feels like, oh, I have a clear

35:39

feeling that I don't need to go

35:41

any further with this. But then I

35:43

also love to get other people involved,

35:46

like in all of my books, I've

35:48

worked with the same editor, and

35:50

he and I have this very special

35:52

relationship, we've known each other since we

35:55

were in college. I think he knows

35:57

what my vision is, and so he...

35:59

can see things that I can't that

36:02

maybe I would miss. And I think

36:04

that's another piece of it is like

36:06

you're willing to allow this to be

36:08

a process instead of just I'm a

36:10

genius. The thing I wrote is perfect

36:12

and I love it. You know, and

36:14

I think that that's a great feeling

36:16

too and you can just love that

36:18

feeling. But then there's this other level

36:20

that you get to when you that's

36:22

what I think why they call it

36:24

a craft because you can sit there

36:26

and work on your craft and tune

36:28

it and you know fine tune it

36:30

and chisel it and focus

36:32

and that it becomes this

36:34

deeper offering when you do allow

36:37

it to be that. I love it. We're

36:39

going to move on to another

36:41

phrase that jumped out at me

36:44

from your bio which is earth

36:46

worshipper. Earth worshippers. So

36:48

you recently put out a

36:50

book. I don't want to

36:52

put words in your mouth,

36:54

the poet, but it is about

36:57

reverence for seasons, cycles,

36:59

nature, earth. I had you

37:02

talk about ritual and

37:04

earth for the 2025

37:07

many moons. You contributed

37:09

an incredible piece that

37:12

hopefully will have time to

37:14

get into. I really want

37:16

to. hear about what is

37:18

the importance for you

37:21

worshiping the earth and what

37:23

are some of the ways

37:25

that you do that? I

37:27

can't remember when this phrase,

37:29

ecstatic earth worshipper came

37:32

into my life, but

37:35

I was like, that is me. I

37:37

am ecstatic about the

37:39

earth and the earth is... just

37:41

what always delivers me my

37:44

inspiration and my sense of

37:46

belonging and I mean I'm

37:48

an Earthling, you know, I'm a

37:50

planetary being I belong to

37:52

this place and so I

37:54

think that even going back

37:56

to my childhood that was

37:58

where I felt felt familial

38:02

and familiar, you know, I would

38:04

just go outside and have

38:06

my little secret time with the

38:08

earth and I felt at

38:10

home. And I think that there's

38:12

something really, there's like a

38:14

common sense in that to

38:16

me, like a real base

38:19

level feeling. So it's interesting

38:21

to, to build off of something

38:23

like that and then let that

38:25

be like very sacred and divine

38:27

because it's not necessarily this thing

38:29

that requires very much of me

38:31

to tap into because it does

38:34

feel so, sort of, I mean,

38:36

I'm looking out the window right

38:38

now and I can see a

38:40

tree, I can see the sky,

38:42

I can instantly find it. And

38:44

I think there's something about that that

38:47

has always just been clear to me

38:49

like, yeah, you're here and just remember you're

38:51

here and how does it feel to be

38:53

here. And

38:55

so worshiping

38:57

sort of, I love the

38:59

word reverence so much because I

39:02

think there is this idea of gratitude

39:04

in it. And that's that's

39:06

a big piece of what

39:08

my work kind of reflects, I think,

39:10

is not just the way it feels

39:12

to be in communion with the earth,

39:14

because like I said, sometimes that can

39:16

actually feel very simple for me and

39:18

just to breathe and be and that's

39:20

it. I don't have to overthink that.

39:22

I can just let myself appreciate that.

39:24

But then what does it look like

39:27

to pay tribute in response to it?

39:29

How do I take care of it?

39:31

How do I engage with it? And

39:33

anything that offers me that

39:35

much solace and peace then

39:37

makes me in return want

39:39

to reciprocate like I

39:41

feel a relationship with the

39:43

earth. And so I

39:45

think through my writing and

39:48

through my own rituals,

39:50

I noticed that the quality

39:52

of that reciprocity gets

39:54

heightened and I can

39:56

feel like any relationship

39:58

if I give to it

40:00

and interact with it, then it

40:02

goes beyond that sort of base

40:04

level sense of connection. It goes

40:07

into the depth of relationship. And

40:09

I can actually feel like there's

40:11

something that we're exchanging with the

40:13

planet. And I see people do

40:15

this in so many different ways.

40:17

And in my life, I was like,

40:19

okay, I as a poet feel

40:21

this responsibility to try to translate

40:24

that. And I

40:26

don't want to just do that for

40:28

myself. I want other people to remember

40:30

that they are also the earth and that

40:32

the earth exists around them. And

40:34

so a lot of it feels like

40:36

just reminders to me. And I

40:38

think that that's a lot of what

40:40

ritual ends up being is this

40:42

like, consistent practice of remembering. And

40:45

remembering for me looks

40:47

like remembering that I have

40:49

a relationship with the earth that

40:51

it's not just something that I take

40:53

from it's something that I give

40:56

to. And it's not something that's just

40:58

happening without me. It's something that's

41:00

constantly happening with me. And I think

41:02

that's where the seasons came in

41:04

is that I started to notice over

41:06

the years how much the seasons

41:09

were impacting my well

41:11

being, my sense of

41:13

self, my creative practice. And

41:15

I thought, okay, this, we need

41:17

to remember this. This is just

41:19

something that earth is kind of

41:21

pointing out to me, like, hey,

41:23

this is affecting you, you are

41:25

deeply affected by these rhythmic qualities

41:27

that the planet produces constantly. And

41:29

although those qualities are shifting, like

41:31

you are shifting to so you

41:33

still need to remember them. And

41:35

so writing this book really helped

41:37

me kind of get a little

41:39

bit of a focus on, okay,

41:42

well, how does that look like

41:44

then to help other people remember

41:46

that and and more not just in

41:48

poetry, but also in pros in

41:50

practice in sort of like this, what

41:52

is this guidance that I receive

41:54

and how can I make it as

41:56

accessible as possible so that other

41:58

people can kind of connect to their

42:00

own way of doing that. Yeah,

42:03

this is, I mean, I

42:05

think this like fundamental piece

42:07

of being a human that

42:09

I'm constantly trying to remember

42:11

myself and remind other people

42:13

is that we are nature

42:15

and like we are a

42:17

part of nature. We've sort

42:19

of strayed or a very weird

42:21

species or like some weird

42:24

mutant kind of, I

42:26

mean, I don't know, are we part alien? It's

42:28

really hard to say. I really trip out

42:30

on that a lot, but when we remember

42:32

we're nature and that we're in

42:34

a relationship with the earth and

42:36

with nature and with cycles and

42:38

with seasons and with light and

42:40

temperature and we're animals. And

42:44

we are ourselves, and this

42:47

is like a very unique

42:49

process and

42:51

I'd love to hear a bit about

42:53

yours, but when we remember that sometimes

42:58

the seasons and

43:00

the cycles are a mirror

43:02

and we work really well

43:04

within them, like for example,

43:06

summer and

43:08

blooming and like coming

43:11

out with things or being out more in the

43:13

world. Some people

43:15

hate summer. Like some people

43:18

are like, nope, I'm inside. I'm

43:20

in a dark room. I get the summer

43:22

sad. I don't, I love summer. That's why

43:24

I moved to LA. But,

43:26

you know, so I think

43:28

understanding what happens to

43:30

us physiologically and mentally

43:33

and emotionally as a result

43:35

of our connection to

43:37

the seasons and then also

43:39

grouping that in with

43:41

whatever season we're in with in

43:44

our life because we might be

43:46

in a, I call it like

43:48

a new moon season where we're like everything's

43:50

fresh and we're like, just started a new job

43:52

and like we are like going a different

43:54

way to work and we're all just like,

43:56

wow, this is all new. I'm learning or, you

43:58

know, whatever. Or we might. be in

44:00

a winning moon phase or a dark

44:02

moon phase where we're like dealing

44:04

with grief and someone we love

44:07

has gone and we need to

44:09

sift through their things and we

44:11

need space to cry and that's

44:13

like going to have a very

44:15

different effect on you. If

44:17

it's summer, you know, like if you've

44:19

lost someone and it's summer, you might

44:22

not want to go out into the

44:24

sun or that might be the remedy.

44:26

I don't know that it might hold

44:28

you in a different way. So

44:31

you brought in in your

44:33

book, you brought in

44:36

creativity and the seasons and

44:38

creating with the seasons and

44:40

side of the seasons. And

44:42

so I was wondering, you

44:44

know, and readers can pick that book

44:46

up. I highly recommend it, especially

44:49

if you are interested in everything that

44:51

we've been talking about so far,

44:54

folks, it's an amazing resource. So I

44:56

was wondering if you could just

44:58

share maybe a little bit about

45:00

your own process or maybe

45:02

just some advice for folks to

45:04

get started or things to think

45:06

about if they're like, huh, oh,

45:08

I've never thought about that or,

45:10

oh, that feels really intuitive and really

45:12

organic to me. You know, how

45:14

can I start thinking about this? I'd

45:16

love to hear from you. There's

45:18

something in what you just said that

45:20

feels sort of like at the root

45:23

of what the book is. And, yeah,

45:25

the book is called A Year in

45:27

Practice. And the idea is, I've

45:29

talked about this concept of

45:31

practice in this way

45:33

where I'm not just talking

45:35

about folks who are

45:38

making artwork or practicing something

45:40

specific. I'm talking about

45:42

the practice of being alive

45:44

and the practice of

45:46

figuring out how to feel

45:48

the way that you would like

45:50

to feel or moving towards something

45:52

that feels like expansive for you

45:54

or whatever that looks like. But

45:56

there's practice involved in that and

45:58

it takes effort and work. And I

46:00

think just listening to what you

46:02

just said, there's this root in

46:04

that that is knowing yourself

46:07

and knowing how you are affected

46:09

and knowing what is affecting you

46:11

and knowing where your feelings are

46:13

coming from. And this is a

46:15

complex. you are made up of

46:17

all of these things from your

46:19

past and the present moment and

46:21

then the earth is affecting you

46:23

and other people are affecting you

46:25

what you take in in a

46:27

day is affecting you you know

46:29

there's so much going on just

46:31

in yourself but I think at

46:33

the root of understanding yourself then

46:35

that's when all of these other things

46:37

in your life start to bloom like

46:39

you you can practice knowing who you

46:41

are in response to all these

46:43

different things. And so this is just

46:46

one outlet for that. And that was

46:48

why I was excited to make

46:50

this book because it's this, I think

46:52

it's an actual. you know, it's a

46:55

system, it's something you can use

46:57

to know yourself better. And even going

46:59

back to talking about what it is

47:01

to be a poet, I mean,

47:03

I think that I'm tuning into my

47:06

own response and feelings as a human

47:08

being, and there's something beautiful and

47:10

universal in that, and that's an

47:12

important piece. But then there's also

47:15

actually just me and knowing what

47:17

makes up this weird cosmic tangle

47:19

and why do I respond this

47:21

way? what about this, what I

47:24

like to work on, what about

47:26

this, what I like to nurture?

47:28

And my experience tuning into the

47:31

seasons is really just built around

47:33

that question. Like, okay, I'm gonna

47:35

give myself the opportunity to tune

47:37

into this earthly rhythm and

47:39

see how does this affect me? And

47:42

so the whole book is sort of

47:44

like offering up my own experience, but

47:46

with these. pathways and outlets for the

47:48

reader to then question that for themselves

47:50

like you were saying like some people

47:53

love summer some people don't you know

47:55

it's not a it's not a prescriptive

47:57

book and I think that that's a

47:59

big piece of the earth isn't prescribing

48:01

us with this exact way of

48:04

being, but it is saying, here

48:06

are all of these ways that

48:08

you can be nurtured or you

48:10

could be held. And here are

48:13

all of these offerings. I mean,

48:15

I think of earth as this

48:17

incredible perfect system that offered us,

48:19

you know, all of our needs

48:22

were met by the earth. We've

48:24

always had everything we've needed. at

48:26

a very basic level, but also

48:28

at like a heightened, you know,

48:31

spiritual level. And so in this

48:33

position that we're in now, where

48:35

there's so much we've been disconnected

48:37

from because of all these other

48:40

human systems that have come from

48:42

places of greed and oppression,

48:44

we're having this, we're, it's an

48:47

opportunity to respond to what we

48:49

actually need on a base level. And

48:51

I think going back to that's why

48:53

the seasons feel so critical in this

48:56

moment. I had someone ask me about

48:58

this book, you know, well, the seasons

49:00

are really changing. And so how does

49:03

that, like, you know, respond to

49:05

what you've just created? And what do

49:07

you have to say about that? And

49:09

I was like, well, I think now

49:11

more than ever we should memorize what

49:13

these seasons are trying to show us

49:15

because the grasp on that concept

49:18

might be shifting, you know, quicker

49:20

than we can really imagine. And

49:22

I think that that doesn't take

49:24

away from the power of the

49:26

wisdom that is there. And I

49:28

think that maybe if we could

49:30

tap into that now, it might

49:32

help us moving forward to see even

49:34

what we're losing, to even comprehend

49:37

what is being lost and

49:39

how that could be an

49:41

incredible and helpful clarity to

49:44

have. There's a couple things

49:46

you said I wanted to just

49:48

go into a little bit, because

49:50

I really loved it. For you

49:52

right here right now. How would you

49:54

talk more? How would you

49:56

describe or define life as

49:59

practice? practice, because that's

50:01

a different way to look at

50:03

living, I think. One of

50:05

the first things that comes to

50:07

mind when I say that,

50:09

like stepping into this feeling of

50:11

life as practice is doing whatever

50:13

I can do in

50:16

a day to kind of

50:18

heighten my own curiosity

50:20

and to follow that curiosity.

50:22

So I think if

50:24

I were to give like

50:27

in a sentence of guidance or

50:29

something, you know, looking around the

50:31

world and noticing the things that

50:33

you think are beautiful, the things

50:35

that excite you, the things that

50:37

you are actually drawn to, whether

50:40

that be just even in a

50:42

deep gaze where you're like, wow,

50:44

I really just noticed myself spending

50:46

a long time looking at this

50:48

sunrise and it's doing something for

50:50

me. And what information is there

50:53

for me in that? And because

50:55

I think that we're

50:57

so rushed, we're

50:59

so rushed, we're so

51:01

busy, we're worked so

51:04

hard. And yet there is

51:06

like these, there's a constant

51:08

offering of this information and the

51:10

practice in that is letting

51:12

yourself have the time and the

51:14

space to receive the information.

51:16

And I would just love to

51:18

say that that's it, just like

51:20

receiving that information and then

51:22

obviously that that would be

51:24

different for each person. But

51:26

that that act of being

51:29

curious and allowing that information

51:31

to enter your mind and

51:33

your body and your spirit

51:35

will give something else to

51:37

you and then you can

51:39

practice honing that and being

51:41

true to that and nurturing

51:43

that. So like in that

51:45

solid example of staring at

51:47

the sunrise and asking myself this

51:49

morning, like why is this moving

51:52

me so much? Why? I was

51:54

like, well, the truth is what

51:56

I'm seeing is different than what

51:58

I normally see. And my

52:00

eyes are receiving a different kind

52:02

of light and there is

52:05

an actual bodily response to that.

52:07

I can feel myself waking

52:09

up in a different way. There's

52:11

energy there that's being offered

52:13

to me. And as this tired

52:15

person who's trying to practice,

52:17

you know, coming to life every

52:20

day and being engaged, and

52:22

that is sort of the base

52:24

of practice, right? Like, I'm

52:26

trying to practice living and I

52:28

don't like to say even

52:30

my best life. I'm just trying

52:32

to practice living life and

52:35

being alive and feeling alive, whatever

52:37

that looks like for me.

52:39

And so to notice these things

52:41

that are giving to me

52:43

that are and the earth is

52:45

always doing that constantly on

52:47

every level. And

52:51

the other thing I

52:53

will say to follow your

52:55

point that I just

52:57

really want to underscore is

52:59

that not all of

53:01

us, but certainly some of

53:03

us either in this

53:06

digital space right now or

53:08

listening, we weren't really

53:10

taught how to live. Like,

53:12

we weren't taught life

53:14

as practice. We weren't taught

53:16

how to figure out

53:18

how to wake up every

53:20

morning and go to

53:22

bed each night and in

53:24

between notice and notice

53:26

what we're paying attention to

53:28

and then maybe being

53:31

brave enough or summoning the

53:33

energy and effort to

53:35

follow that noticing into wherever

53:37

it might lead us

53:39

to then make us become

53:41

alive in different ways

53:43

or experience things in different

53:45

ways. And I love

53:47

that. No, this is not

53:49

about like some best

53:51

life or some like optimized

53:53

whatever. It's about being

53:56

alive and it's about living

53:58

and I think I

54:00

think that utilizing nature, collaborating

54:02

with nature nature, listening to nature as

54:04

just this support system and mirror to ourselves

54:06

is the most easiest and most

54:09

true way to begin. And

54:11

it's so simple and it's

54:13

so easy. And I was

54:15

rereading your piece for Many

54:17

Moons, like, and ahead of

54:19

speaking with you. And you

54:21

wrote about spring and case

54:24

and point of what we

54:26

were talking about earlier. You have

54:28

some, at least in this piece,

54:30

there are some like caution, like

54:32

spring is like, you're like, I

54:35

don't know about you spring, and

54:37

you're like, I remind myself

54:39

to move into my practice

54:41

with caution, like a tender

54:44

animal who hasn't seen the sun

54:46

in months, if I'm too quick,

54:48

I'll end up like the plum

54:50

tree that put out its blossoms

54:52

too soon. When a windstorm

54:55

came out of nowhere

54:57

the little flowers got

54:59

thrashed and the trees

55:01

crop wasn't as plentiful

55:03

I heed this warning

55:06

and make sure not

55:08

to push myself into

55:10

the mindset of

55:13

productive outcomes too

55:15

soon. I just really

55:17

appreciate the piece of this

55:19

that is the idea of

55:21

learning. and that maybe we

55:24

weren't taught. And there are so

55:26

many teachers and the fact

55:28

that, yeah, when you're young,

55:30

maybe the people who you're

55:33

exposed to, your family,

55:35

your teachers, maybe they're

55:37

not offering you the tools

55:39

that you really need. And

55:41

there's many reasons why they

55:44

didn't. And I do think that

55:46

being in a position of...

55:48

of teaching or offering

55:50

up wisdom often feels way

55:53

more appropriate to me through the

55:55

lens of the earth because it

55:57

is this entry point and I

56:00

I say that a lot. I do

56:02

a lot of eco-poetry and nature

56:04

work in classrooms with young

56:06

students. And I love letting

56:08

nature be the thing that

56:11

guides them into talking about

56:13

their identity. because it's so

56:15

much more of a gentle

56:18

entrance, it's not just human.

56:20

It's way more vast and

56:22

it feels like there's a

56:24

lot of space there to

56:26

be yourself and to explore

56:28

who you are through the

56:31

lens of the natural world

56:33

because it's not so strictly

56:35

connected to being human.

56:37

And I think that, you

56:39

know, obviously, you are nature,

56:41

yes, but there is this

56:43

spaciousness there that allows people

56:45

to express themselves and explore

56:48

these huge feelings without that

56:50

construct of only the human

56:52

world being, only human language,

56:54

only human experience, that that

56:56

feels like, especially for things

56:58

like grief and pain and

57:00

struggle and transformation, like learning all

57:02

of the things to move from

57:05

a place of pain or a

57:07

place of true suffering, it's actually

57:09

made easier with the help of

57:12

this kind of, like, I always

57:14

think that the earth is just

57:16

holding them while they do it.

57:18

So they're being held by the

57:21

earth and the metaphors that come

57:23

with the earth and that that's.

57:25

Just way more gentle. It's just

57:27

so much more gentle. And so I

57:29

think that that that feels like I

57:32

loved what you're saying is that yes

57:34

someone might not have taught you what

57:36

you can receive from Something as

57:39

simple as looking at the sunrise

57:41

and that the information that's there

57:43

for you might actually not be

57:45

simple. It might be really painful,

57:47

but that the earth allows this

57:50

entry point to that that isn't so

57:52

exacting it can be I mean that's

57:54

why I think creating

57:56

poetry around these things

57:58

is like a it's almost like

58:00

a hand that holds you as you

58:03

move through it and the hand can

58:05

actually be the sky or the

58:07

hand could be you know the rabbit

58:09

or the hand could be the tree

58:12

and I think that it's sometimes easier

58:14

for someone who has maybe suffered

58:16

especially like trauma through other human beings

58:19

to not have to learn directly from

58:21

other human beings and that's just

58:23

that's been the case for me for

58:25

sure and I think even being someone

58:28

who is someone who is in a

58:30

position in my career to

58:32

offer guidance and information that

58:35

doing so with the earth

58:37

as my partner makes

58:39

way more sense to me than

58:41

saying I as this human

58:44

who was not taught. I'm now teaching,

58:46

but I'm not teaching alone. It's

58:48

not just me, Jacqueline Susskin, telling

58:51

you what I think and what

58:53

I know. It's me and my

58:55

spouse, the earth, you know, me

58:58

and my collaborator, this planet, who

59:00

is also your collaborator. So we

59:02

share this. And that feels so

59:05

beautiful and inviting. This just

59:07

feels like a very held place

59:09

to end. Jacqueline, as you've

59:11

said, you have many books

59:14

that people can check out.

59:16

I highly recommend all of them.

59:18

Are there any other places

59:20

you exist in the world

59:23

where folks can, you know,

59:25

is there a newsletter? Is

59:27

there some kind of social

59:29

media? Do you ever

59:31

teach publicly? Like, I just

59:33

love to, I know folks

59:36

are going to want to

59:38

be following along with you.

59:40

both in print and maybe digitally.

59:42

So if you could just

59:44

share some ways folks could

59:46

stay abreast of all of

59:48

your beauty and offer you. Yeah, I

59:51

do have a sub stack and I

59:53

have paid subscription and a

59:55

free newsletter that comes out

59:57

every month. Both of those.