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You are listening

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to the Inside The Mix podcast

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with your host, Mark Matthews. Hello and welcome to the

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Inside the Mix podcast.

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I'm Mark Matthews, your

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host, musician, producer, and

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mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place

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if you want to know more about

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your favorite synth music

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artist, music, engineering

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and production, songwriting

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and the music industry.

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I've been writing, producing, mixing, and mastering music for over 15 years,

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and I wanna share what I.

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With you. Hey folks, and welcome back

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to the Inside The Mix podcast.

0:32

And in this episode, I'm

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very excited as I always

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am, to welcome our guest

0:34

today, Simon Quinn, who has

0:37

won half of the safety word.

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Now, the safety word, see themselves as. Artistic Maestros.

0:43

I love that description. Who craft sonic compositions

0:44

referring to the sound

0:46

as atmospheric synth pop. And you can find elements of

0:48

synth wave, synth pop, dream

0:51

pop, ambient atmospherics

0:51

and upbeat electronic

0:53

dance floor anthems just to

0:53

describe the varying sound

0:57

palette they draw from. So Simon is gonna share with

0:58

us, um, a short musical.

1:03

key songwriting tools and techniques. Um, he's come prepared with

1:05

a list, which is fantastic.

1:07

And this is gonna be

1:07

brilliant, a deep dive into

1:09

latest single vanity life. And have another, another

1:10

key one as well, which is

1:13

quite a, a running theme for the podcast, is how to stay musically motivated.

1:16

So, Simon, how are you? And thanks for joining me today.

1:19

Yeah, thank you. I'm, I'm doing pretty well.

1:21

Thank you. Yeah,

1:23

fantastic. Just for our audience,

1:23

can you, um, just tell our

1:26

audience where you are? You're joining me from

1:27

today? Um, Melbourne, Australia.

1:30

00 PM at night. , um, yeah.

1:34

On

1:34

Sunday. Fantastic. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

1:37

It is 11 o'clock in the

1:37

morning over here in the uk.

1:39

But I love this, I love that the podcast has this reach across the world Now.

1:42

I put my tentacles out

1:42

there and, and chatting

1:44

to people all over. I think you are the furthest

1:45

away to date and racking my

1:49

brains here over the past 50th

1:49

50 episodes, which is amazing.

1:54

So what I'd like to start with

1:54

is your musical background.

1:56

So I've got a bit of your bio here again. So you described the safety

1:58

word or a musical brotherhood.

2:01

So you're consistently

2:01

of yourself and John.

2:03

Now I'm gonna hopefully pronounce his surname correct here.

2:05

Ross VanNess. That's correct, yep.

2:08

Fantastic. On vocals, guitar, and

2:08

yourself on keys and beats.

2:11

Um, so you've solid solidified

2:11

your sound over the, over the

2:14

years, playing and creating

2:14

music together, forming a

2:17

telepathic relationship when it

2:17

comes to building whole musical.

2:20

It's like these submerge

2:20

themselves in, and I

2:22

think that's quite notable in the latest album you had out as well.

2:25

I've been listening, I've been

2:25

putting acoustic tiles up in

2:27

my, in my studio space here,

2:27

and I was listening to the album

2:29

whilst I was doing it, and it's,

2:29

it's like the perfect ambiance

2:33

to have whilst I was doing it. It was brilliant. Is that

2:35

the moving forward in reverse?

2:37

It is, yes. Yeah, yeah. That exact album.

2:39

It's, um, sorry, I should

2:39

have named it whilst I,

2:41

whilst I was talking about it. That's

2:43

fine. So we've got a, I've got a few out. Yeah.

2:46

Yeah, I, I've noticed that, and I think we'll come back to

2:47

that later in the chat. And in terms of, um, moti,

2:48

I think it falls into

2:51

the motivation category. So you can just tell

2:53

our audience a bit about your musical influences.

2:55

How growing up, how did it all start? How did you sort of grow

2:57

into being a musician?

3:01

. Simon Quinn: Yeah. Uh, well, I, um, learned

3:01

piano from a very young age.

3:05

I wasn't particularly good at it. And that was the very

3:06

classical sort of rulers

3:09

across the fingers, sort of,

3:09

you've got the scale wrong.

3:13

Uh, and then I sort of gave

3:13

up piano cause I wasn't really

3:16

getting anything out of it. Um, but then, you know, got

3:17

into guitar a bit later on.

3:21

And then I played in sort of

3:21

punk bands, alternative bands.

3:24

That was like late

3:24

nineties kind of thing.

3:27

So a bit of sort of, um, grunge,

3:27

sort of post rock kind of stuff.

3:32

Um, played in a number

3:32

of bands and there was a

3:34

really big scene in Hobart. Um, so playing and going and

3:36

just immersing myself in that,

3:40

that scene for a number of. Um, and then I was at art

3:43

school and started to get into

3:48

more electronic type stuff. And, um, yeah, and that's when

3:50

I sort of had this idea of,

3:55

um, the, yeah, getting more

3:55

into electronic music and the

4:01

live, live electronic music. Um, so met Meet, I met people

4:03

at, at art school and we

4:07

formed a band called Little. and we'd play gallery openings

4:09

and things like that, doing

4:12

very abstract down tempo,

4:12

kind of lo lofi music.

4:17

And this was in about 2000. Um, then, uh, about

4:19

2003, moved to Melbourne.

4:23

Uh, Formed a band called

4:23

Vultures of Venus, which is

4:27

electro glam space rock band.

4:30

Um, oh wow. And we, we, we played for

4:31

about 10 years and released

4:34

some albums and stuff, and

4:34

that was, yeah, very sort of

4:36

party upbeat kind of music.

4:39

Um, and then sort of at the end

4:39

of that I was, um, doing a side

4:45

project with, um, John, who

4:45

formed the safety word with.

4:50

Yeah, we just sort of started

4:50

very casually doing stuff.

4:53

But, um, as, as we, you know,

4:53

did more and more, we, we

4:58

really liked what we were

4:58

doing and started to take

5:00

it a bit more seriously. Um, for the first three years

5:02

that we were together, were more

5:05

of a live band, and we used to

5:05

put on performances where we,

5:09

we'd have guest musicians and

5:09

we wouldn't really have set

5:12

songs, we'd just have keys and

5:12

loops that we were playing.

5:15

and we'd just sort of have

5:15

these long 10 minute jams

5:18

and it was, you know, quite

5:18

interesting and fun to do.

5:22

And yeah, then we just started

5:22

wanting to narrow it down

5:25

to, um, yeah, a bit, bit more

5:25

digestible kind of thing.

5:30

And at the moment we're, um,

5:30

Yeah, we're, we are still

5:35

experimenting, as you said, like

5:35

we released that album moving

5:38

forward in reverse, um, which

5:38

I think is highly experimental.

5:43

But then we also like doing

5:43

like sort of ultra pop, sort

5:46

of synth wave stuff that has

5:46

the classic chorus coming in

5:50

at the five or ten second mark. And it's just, you

5:52

know, very pop structure

5:55

and very, um, access. , but it's a big thing for us

5:57

to be able to have a bit of

6:00

room to, to breathe within

6:00

our sound because we have so

6:04

much, um, music in us that we

6:04

want to get out that we don't

6:07

really want to be boxed up. Um, so, you know, we have

6:09

elements of, um, chill wave

6:13

or synth wave and then also

6:13

synth pop and eighties,

6:17

um, ritualism in there. And then we also like

6:19

our post rock type stuff.

6:22

And then we have a lot of

6:22

electronic influences as.

6:27

. Um, I'm a also a dj and what I

6:27

play out's very different from

6:31

what I do with the safety word. So I like playing, um,

6:32

glitch hop type, well

6:35

bass heavy type stuff. And sometimes some of that

6:37

sort of merges into the

6:40

safety word stuff, but yeah.

6:42

But yeah, we've got a lot

6:42

of different influencers

6:44

that we like, um, and we

6:44

yeah, enjoy being able.

6:49

Explore our different

6:49

musical, um, palettes and

6:52

personalities within what we do.

6:54

And I think we've built a bit

6:54

of an audience that is willing

6:57

to come on that journey with us.

7:00

Yeah, that's

7:01

a fantastic background. I love that. So it, what you mentioned there

7:03

about playing piano, it's kind

7:06

of resonates with a lot of the

7:06

interviews I've done whereby,

7:08

um, artists have started playing

7:08

an instrument in their younger

7:11

years and haven't quite, um,

7:11

Sort of grasped it for one of

7:15

a better way of putting it,

7:15

moved onto another instrument,

7:17

and then you've gone down the

7:17

alt route, the alternate rock

7:20

route, and the, the, the punk

7:20

route and whatnot as well.

7:22

And then you've sort of found

7:22

your way, and I think it's

7:24

very impressive the, the,

7:24

the, the raft of music you're

7:27

currently doing at the moment. So you mentioned being a

7:27

DJ as well, and I noticed,

7:30

um, in the, in the Facebook

7:30

group for the podcast, you

7:33

put a poster yesterday, I

7:33

think it was, which was,

7:35

uh, a link to a compilation. Compilation album whereby

7:37

you've got a really quite

7:40

a dark sound, um, in, in

7:40

what you've contributed to

7:43

that, which sounds amazing. I really, really liked it. So I like the idea that you've

7:45

got all this music inside of

7:48

you, that your, the safety word

7:48

is like your vehicle to get

7:50

it out there and you're not,

7:50

um, you're not scared for one

7:54

of a way away of putting it,

7:54

of, of conveying that music.

7:57

You're not, you're not sticking

7:57

within, uh, one set formula.

8:00

You're actually just showcasing what it is you're about, you know?

8:03

And I think you mentioned

8:03

there about moving forward in.

8:06

. Yeah. Listening to that this morning and throughout the past week when I've been

8:08

doing my due diligence for the, uh, for this interview.

8:11

Yeah. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's

8:12

quite different to, to vanity

8:15

life and I think it's meant what you mentioned there wasn't it about you've got that

8:16

formulaic sort of that the pop

8:19

punk and then you've got the,

8:19

the quite ambient experimental

8:22

moving forward in reverse. Yeah. And when I listened to the

8:24

two I, I listened to and I was like, that's quite, quite

8:26

a difference you've got going on there, which is amazing

8:27

and I think it's brilliant.

8:30

Um, mm. And do My quick question

8:31

is, you, you, that darker

8:34

element that you had there at the beginning Yeah. Um, what you posted yesterday,

8:36

is that something you're

8:38

gonna lean into as well? Like the darker synth

8:40

sound? Um, yeah. At, at the moment, um, John's

8:41

really into the idea of us

8:45

doing some, um, mini like five

8:45

to 10 minute movies when we

8:49

create the soundtracks for them. And they're gonna be kind

8:50

of David Lynch s kind of a

8:53

Razorhead type thing, um,

8:53

where we create these, yeah.

8:57

Dark ambient drone like

8:57

soundtracks, and then create

9:00

these mini movies with

9:00

ourselves in them and, and

9:04

you know, release them up

9:04

onto YouTube, but also on

9:06

Spotify and things like that. So it'd be very different

9:07

from our, um, you know, more

9:11

commercially accessible,

9:11

um, synth pop stuff.

9:13

But it's like another

9:13

layer that, that people

9:16

who like our sound can

9:16

get into if they want to.

9:19

Or if people just want our

9:19

pop stuff, then that's fine.

9:23

. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Fantastic. I love that, that that was,

9:24

once again, it's just branching

9:26

out and I think from your

9:26

bio I got that you are, you

9:29

are very much, um, a DIY

9:29

band and that you do a lot.

9:32

If not all of the production,

9:32

post-production, the, the

9:36

promo, the videos, you do

9:36

it all yourself, is that

9:38

correct? Um, yeah. We, we do all the

9:40

demoing ourselves.

9:43

Um, we like, we've got a guy

9:43

called Ryan Fallis at Invention

9:46

Studio and, um, we like getting

9:46

our vocals done there and then

9:51

getting, he master our music as.

9:54

um, or sometimes we have someone

9:54

else, um, who we really like,

9:58

who they've worked with, um, to

9:58

master our, our music as well.

10:03

So we had, for Vanity Life

10:03

was mastered, um, by a guy

10:07

called Matt in Melbourne who's

10:07

worked with, um, boo Seeker and

10:11

Jared James, and a few other

10:11

Australian acts that we really.

10:15

And so, yeah, we hit him

10:15

up and showed him the track

10:18

and he was, you know, he

10:18

doesn't just sort of work

10:21

with anyone, but he was, yeah. He said, yeah, I

10:22

really like that. I'll, I'll do this for you.

10:26

But yeah, pretty much DIY .

10:28

Marc Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, apart from the

10:29

mastering, see, going back, so

10:32

you do the videos, cuz I know

10:32

there's a video for Vanity

10:34

Life, is that sort of produced,

10:34

directed by yourselves as well?

10:37

Yeah. So that was. Shot in John's basement.

10:40

Um, we, we've got, you know,

10:40

lot ring lights and different

10:44

covered lights and stuff. Um, just shot, shot on phone

10:45

at the moment and, uh, John's

10:50

girlfriend filmed that she

10:50

often will do our photo

10:53

shoots or our film clips. Uh, and then I edit

10:55

it on, um, premier.

10:58

And do you know, um, the,

10:58

the layering of Yeah.

11:02

Effects and the, the colors

11:02

and all of that sort.

11:06

um, just sort of, yeah, keep our

11:06

costs down as much as possible.

11:10

We've got a, um, coming up

11:10

next, um, on Friday, actually

11:14

the fourth of, um, November.

11:17

We've got our, um, vanity Life

11:17

remix, um, single coming out.

11:23

And so I've made, um, it's

11:23

got six remixes on there by

11:28

artists from all around the. . Yeah.

11:31

Um, and , I've made six,

11:31

uh, visualizers for it.

11:35

So we like to have a YouTube

11:35

launch party for each of our

11:38

major releases, particularly

11:38

when it's a remix or something.

11:41

And it's got little like,

11:41

um, one minute, one to

11:45

five minute intros from

11:45

all the remix artists.

11:48

And they just sort of show

11:48

a bit of their Ableton or

11:51

whatever door they're working

11:51

on their session and how they,

11:54

um, remix the track and then

11:54

play the visualizers and.

11:59

we like to have some wine and

11:59

cheese and sit back and watch

12:03

that and be active in the chat. And we've had had, uh, I think

12:05

we've done it three or four

12:07

times before, so we did one

12:07

for moving forward in reverse.

12:11

They're up on YouTube. You can watch the replays

12:12

there if anyone's interested.

12:16

Yeah. .

12:18

Marc Matthews: I love that idea. Have you noticed, cuz you,

12:18

you say you've done it before,

12:21

is it gaining traction? So every time you do another

12:22

one, are you getting more and more people involved?

12:25

Cause I know when you start these things mm-hmm. , I've done it with a podcast.

12:27

You start something and

12:27

engagement might be quite low,

12:30

but the more you do it, you find that the, you get more and more people each time.

12:33

Is that, does that happen? Yeah. You, I think you're

12:34

doing everything right to YouTube's algorithm.

12:37

If you have a premier of

12:37

something and you, you know,

12:40

create a Facebook event and

12:40

you invite as many people

12:43

to it, like it's a gig. And then in during the thing,

12:45

like the actual bands there

12:49

and they're active in the chat,

12:49

people are asking questions.

12:52

So you could, you can

12:52

see there's a lot of

12:54

engagement there, even if

12:54

it's only like, you know.

12:58

, 30 to 50 people, it's still

12:58

really active and quite fun.

13:01

Yeah. And then you've got, you know,

13:01

your 50 views, but then you're

13:04

seeing the next couple of days

13:04

it seems to spread, spread

13:07

it out like you, and within

13:07

a week you've got, you know,

13:10

500 views on it or something,

13:10

which you know, isn't a lot.

13:13

But for indie band, it's good.

13:15

Um, And then when we release

13:15

a single or something,

13:19

it seems like YouTube's,

13:19

um, friendly to us.

13:22

So we put Vanity Life up

13:22

the other day and it yet got

13:27

up to 5,000 streams down.

13:29

It's only been up less than

13:29

a week, which is pretty good.

13:31

Fantastic.

14:07

It's a weird one. YouTube, isn't it? I've, um, I, I released a

14:08

single a few weeks, but a few

14:11

weeks, a few months ago and it

14:11

did the same thing and then I

14:13

released another one and it,

14:13

and then YouTube algorithm ones.

14:16

That's so kind to it, but, um,

14:17

yeah, that's right. But I don't think

14:18

you have to worry. I mean, we try not to worry

14:19

about, um, vanity Me metrics,

14:24

which is a bit of what the

14:24

song Vanity Life's about.

14:27

Um, do it. And yeah, not even really,

14:29

I mean, you can't help

14:32

yourself, but look at the

14:32

metrics, but, you know,

14:34

try not to worry about it. And that's part of my

14:35

process too, is just being

14:38

consistent, um, and not,

14:38

not, you know, dwelling

14:41

on the numbers too much. Yeah, I, I

14:45

totally agree with that. Um, and much like

14:46

yourself, I do. more so with the podcast

14:49

actually, that you get the

14:51

download metrics and I can't

14:51

help but look and I think,

14:53

no, I'm only gonna look like

14:53

once every couple days and

14:56

I end up looking every day. But it's, it's hard not to, um,

14:56

. But I think to stay motivated

15:01

for me, I dunno about yourself. Well come onto motivation later.

15:03

Later. Yeah. If I was solely motivated,

15:04

I think by metrics, it

15:06

would be very hard to,

15:06

I find it difficult

15:09

to, to keep motivation. I, I enjoy my Spotify for

15:10

artists' app on my phone

15:13

and I like looking at it,

15:13

you know, just see if I'm at

15:15

work and got a few minutes

15:15

spare or on lunch break or

15:18

something and I'll go, oh look. you know, watch the stream

15:19

counts almost like a little

15:22

bit of a game to see if you can

15:22

get a song up to that thousand

15:25

streams in the first week

15:25

or something of its release.

15:28

Um, you know, and you, and it's

15:28

sort of like a dopamine hit,

15:32

um, when you know you do it. But I, I try to just look

15:34

at it as a, a fun sort of

15:36

game rather than too serious

15:36

because ultimately what,

15:40

um, John and I like is.

15:43

Um, just enjoying the creative

15:43

process for ourselves and if

15:47

people want to come along on

15:47

that ride, then that's great,

15:51

but, you know, you know,

15:51

occasionally we, we might do

15:53

something that's a little bit

15:53

more out there and it, and it,

15:57

you know, doesn't necessarily

15:57

do as well, but it was really

15:59

important and we really love the

15:59

song and, and that's, you know,

16:03

what we feel matters in the. Yep.

16:07

Totally agree. Um, I think that is the

16:08

key to, to creativity.

16:10

You gotta love what you do. And then if someone else

16:12

likes it, then great.

16:14

And, um, I definitely,

16:14

definitely echo that sentiment.

16:17

So what we'll move on

16:17

to next then is the

16:19

actual, um, songwriting

16:19

and creative process.

16:23

So you've come prepared for

16:23

this, uh, Podcast interview with

16:26

a list, which is amazing and

16:28

I love that. I hope we don't even need to look at the list cuz it's all up here.

16:32

I was gonna say, just, just

16:32

for a reference so people

16:35

might be, uh, interested

16:35

in what I'm about to say.

16:38

I did, I did a bit of a challenge. I was working for a company

16:40

last year making lo-fi music

16:45

and, and the challenge was

16:45

could I create a hundred

16:48

lofi songs and utilizing

16:48

this process that I'm gonna

16:53

share, I created a hundred. almost too easily.

16:58

So I challenged myself

16:58

to write a thousand songs

17:02

in a year and I did it.

17:06

And so , so this is the,

17:06

um, the process that I used.

17:12

To

17:12

do that. Wow. I I cannot wait to hear this.

17:14

And actually, I'm glad you said

17:14

that cause it made me remember

17:17

what my question was gonna be. Yeah. Because in the notes leading

17:19

up to this interview, um, you

17:22

mentioned about gamification

17:22

of, of creativity and music.

17:25

And my question was gonna be,

17:25

can you give us some examples

17:27

of the gamification, the, the

17:27

game element that you use?

17:31

Yeah. In the creative process?

17:32

Yeah, definitely. So when you're creating,

17:33

um, music, it's good to.

17:38

Your options cuz there's just

17:38

too many options that are open

17:42

when you are staring at a blank,

17:42

um, door screen and going,

17:45

okay, I'm gonna make a song. So two of the really easy

17:47

ones that you can get rid of

17:50

straightaway is key and tempo.

17:54

So I like to use like a,

17:54

um, online generator or

17:58

even I've used dice in the

17:58

past, or even just like

18:01

a, um, like a GIE board. And you go boom, and you go,

18:03

okay, I'm making a song in c.

18:08

, that's one choice out of the way. What tempo do the same thing.

18:14

It's gonna be 75 bpm.

18:17

So then you've eliminated a

18:17

lot of choices that could take

18:20

you half an hour to think of. So I'm writing a song in C

18:22

minor that's 75 bpm, let's go.

18:28

And so, yeah. Oh, I can go on with the process

18:31

of how I do that if you like.

18:35

Yes, please do. Um, what I qu quickly before

18:35

you do that, when you,

18:38

when you have that key and

18:38

you have that tempo Hmm.

18:41

Do you then not deviate

18:41

that from that at all?

18:44

Do you, you just stick with it? Yeah.

18:46

Look, if you decide that it's not working, you can change it.

18:49

There's no rules, you see. But that's just like a game

18:50

that I play with myself.

18:53

It's like, . Okay, so

18:53

I'm gonna write a song.

18:56

What's the key? What's the tempo? Have someone else

18:58

decide that for you.

19:00

So there's less thinking for

19:00

you to do, less obstacles in the

19:03

way of you creating that track.

19:06

And I, I just find

19:06

that that helps.

19:08

And it also makes you write

19:08

different music, cuz when you're

19:11

writing a lot of music, you

19:11

don't want it to sound the same.

19:16

And so one thing you can

19:16

do to help it not sound

19:18

the same, is have different

19:18

keys, different temp.

19:23

Yeah. Fantastic.

19:24

Okay, so I won't,

19:24

I won't hold off any longer.

19:27

So let's go through this creative process then. So do you wanna read off to our

19:28

listeners the, uh, the creative

19:31

process that you go through?

19:32

Yeah, yeah. So I can Yeah. Talk about that.

19:35

So I, um, so my mentor that

19:35

taught me, um, process is

19:40

a guy called Mike Monday,

19:40

who's an English guy who's

19:43

living in Australia now.

19:46

Um, and he does a

19:46

thing, um, called splu.

19:51

and the idea is to, um, create

19:51

a lot of quantity over quality.

19:57

And it's the idea of

19:57

rolling a dice and you're

20:00

trying to roll a six. So if you only roll the dice

20:01

once you've got a one in

20:05

six chance of rolling a six. But if you are, just say

20:07

you do this splurging idea.

20:11

I, I usually do two to

20:11

three songs a day, but you

20:14

can do bare minimum, you

20:14

could do it one song a day.

20:18

Um, that means over a week.

20:22

, if you're doing three songs

20:22

a day, you are gonna have,

20:25

you know, 28 chances to

20:25

roll a six rather than if

20:28

you're just working on one

20:28

track a week or something.

20:32

And it might be not be the

20:32

right track to be working on.

20:34

You might be spending

20:34

hours on something that's

20:37

not even that good, just

20:37

cuz that's what you do.

20:41

Um, . So yeah, so, so what

20:41

you can do is, uh, the

20:48

first thing to do is you

20:48

get, you get your band.

20:51

So I like to limit

20:51

myself to five tracks,

20:55

but there's no rules. You know, if you're

20:56

creating a song and you go, I need another track,

20:58

you can put another track.

21:01

But it's good to, as I was

21:01

saying, li limit the choices

21:04

that you have in order to try

21:04

and, um, achieve things faster.

21:09

So what you do when you're

21:09

putting together your band is.

21:14

Select what you're gonna

21:14

use for your drums.

21:17

So you have like a, think about

21:17

it like a traditional rock band.

21:20

You've got a drummer, a

21:20

bass player, someone playing

21:24

mid-range, and someone playing

21:24

lead, something like that.

21:29

Um, and then you choose your

21:29

favorite vsts, um, or analog

21:35

gear that you'd use for. That you'd use for your

21:38

drums, that you'd use for the

21:40

lead, that you'd use for your

21:40

pads or mid-range sort of.

21:45

. Um, so then you've got a,

21:45

a template that you can

21:50

load up each time, and then

21:50

it's just less things for

21:53

you to do in that session.

21:56

And then there's different ways

21:56

that I like to start a song

22:00

and I like to have different

22:00

ways to start a song, so

22:03

it's not the same all the. . But, um, something that's

22:05

helped me a lot is having

22:09

something like a cord generator. So I've written down a few

22:12

of the ones I've used here.

22:14

So Scaler two, uh, Insta

22:14

Cord, um, captain Cords.

22:20

Um, so I've, I've tried

22:20

all them and they're all

22:23

really good and they, they

22:23

actually work really well.

22:26

So you can go, okay,

22:26

I'm writing a song in c.

22:30

and you can have it spit out

22:30

some chords that are in C minor,

22:35

and then you can listen to

22:35

that and change them around to

22:38

get something that you like. So you've just got a basis

22:39

of something to start off.

22:42

Um, that that's, you know,

22:42

that's one way to start a song.

22:45

I've since, um, purchased a

22:45

thing called a theory board.

22:49

Which is, uh, I've got it over

22:49

there, but it, it's, um, got

22:54

chords built into it so you can

22:54

program whatever key you want.

22:58

So you want a major, and

22:58

then you can just play each

23:02

of the chords in a major

23:02

and it's got got, you know,

23:06

all of the possibilities

23:06

like suspended and.

23:09

All of that , and it's a really

23:09

fast, fun way to, to create it.

23:15

So it's like using those core

23:15

generators, but you'll have

23:17

a lot more control over what

23:17

you are, what you're doing.

23:22

Um, and so, but the idea with,

23:22

with splurging is that you

23:27

want to, um, just be really

23:27

free in the process and

23:31

just create something and. Almost like the, the first thing

23:34

that comes naturally to you.

23:38

So, um, you know, without

23:38

putting too much block on

23:43

it and not too much thinking

23:43

about is it good, is it bad?

23:46

It's just about, um, you

23:46

know, rolling the dice and

23:49

just putting down something. And the idea is to.

23:55

Get out of the loop as quickly

23:55

as possible so you don't

23:58

get stuck inside the loop. So you get a bit of an

24:00

arrangement or something

24:03

happening and then you

24:03

sort of arrange it out.

24:06

So it's over a three minute or

24:06

four minute, or however long

24:09

you want the song to be, so

24:09

you can start seeing an end

24:12

point as soon as possible.

24:14

Because for years and years I

24:14

would start making music and

24:17

I'd just be stuck in like a. Loop going around or tweaking

24:20

a high hat for hours or

24:24

doing things like that. And the idea of, of splurging

24:25

is sort of the opposite of that.

24:28

You, you use presets or you use,

24:28

you know, things just to get

24:33

your sounds and ideas out there.

24:35

Cause you can go back and edit it later. So if you, you know, if

24:37

you want a pad sound or

24:40

something, you can pull up a preset or something that's close to what you want and

24:41

then just tweak it a little.

24:46

Um, rather than going, I have

24:46

to create a patch from Start

24:49

, it's gonna take me, you can

24:49

go back and do that later.

24:52

You know, if you decide a song's

24:52

really good and you want a

24:54

unique patch, because there's

24:54

no point creating that patch

24:58

if you're not even gonna move

24:58

forward with this, the song,

25:01

and that could take you an

25:01

hour or something, you know,

25:04

just to create that one thing. Um, yeah.

25:07

So the idea is, um, so this

25:07

is the important bit, is you.

25:11

Within the session, however

25:11

long you decide that you've

25:14

got to make music with

25:14

everything else that's going

25:16

on in your life, you might

25:16

have a minimum commitment that

25:19

you've only got half an hour. You know, cuz you've got

25:21

a job, kids, you've got

25:23

everything you've gotta do. So you've only got

25:25

half an hour a day. So if you've got half an

25:27

hour to get an idea of a

25:30

song out and get it out. Actually a full song.

25:34

So like, you know, two,

25:34

three minutes, however

25:37

long it needs to be. But then the important bit

25:39

is that you finish the song.

25:42

So whether you like

25:42

it, you don't like it.

25:45

And this is the thing, I try

25:45

not to get emotionally attached

25:48

to the song during the creative

25:48

process cuz getting too excited

25:52

about a song can be a problem

25:52

as well as not liking the song.

25:57

So I. You know, cuz obviously you like

26:00

the song a bit cuz you've gone

26:02

playing around on the keyboard

26:02

or programming on the notes,

26:05

depending on how you do it. Um, you've got something

26:07

out and you've decided, oh

26:09

yeah, that's pretty good. I'm gonna go, I'm

26:10

gonna hit record. So obviously you

26:12

liked it at that time.

26:15

And the idea is you, you mix

26:15

the track down and then you

26:22

don't listen to it for a week. This is the big.

26:26

So each day what you do is

26:26

you create three folders.

26:30

So you have a sketchbook,

26:30

then you have an in progress

26:34

and a complete folder. So that song that you just did

26:36

goes into the sketchbook and

26:40

you say 30th of October song a.

26:43

And then if you've got time, you might do 30th or October Song, B song.

26:47

You know, if it's a Saturday night, you might have Song D or F, you know,

26:49

if you're in the studio.

26:53

And then what you want to

26:53

do is you want to listen

26:56

to that a week later. , so you listen to the

26:58

songs from a week ago.

27:01

So every day if you keep

27:01

doing this process and you

27:04

do it, you know, minimum

27:04

commitment of, you know,

27:07

20, 30 minutes a day, you've

27:07

at least got one song that

27:09

you're listening to each day. And you go, oh, what's today?

27:13

And what I do is I upload it

27:13

to a private, um, SoundCloud

27:16

link, and then I like to

27:16

listen to it in my car

27:19

or walking my dog away.

27:22

The the I do is to listen

27:22

to it away from your.

27:25

So in a different room at least,

27:25

um, but preferably outside

27:30

and away from your house. You and, and what you, you'll

27:31

find is you'll discover,

27:36

you know, you'll play back

27:36

the song and you go, wow,

27:39

that's really amazing. I can hear how that could

27:40

be a fully formed song.

27:44

Or you might go, nah, not that.

27:47

and that's okay. You know, cuz it took you 30

27:49

minutes or an hour, maybe an

27:52

hour and a half, two hours if

27:52

you know it got carried away.

27:55

But the idea is not to put

27:55

too much, um, you know, don't

28:00

fully form the sketch out. Just get enough down.

28:03

So it's got the beat, the bass,

28:03

the, the, the main components

28:06

of the song so that you can

28:06

tell whether it's an idea that

28:09

you want to spend more time on. Um, and so if you decide that.

28:15

Like the song, then you

28:15

can go into your, you put

28:18

it into the in progress. and then you've got this

28:20

folder of all things that

28:23

you've decided that you

28:23

like and you can make

28:25

notes and things like that. I, I, I keep spreadsheets and

28:27

things on, so if I listen to the

28:31

song, I can put into my phone.

28:33

Yep. Really like that one, but

28:34

needs better bass, sound

28:38

needs maybe speeded up

28:38

by two PPM or something.

28:41

You, you know, you put your

28:41

first reaction to it and then

28:44

you can go back and listen. , you know, just open up

28:45

the session and look at

28:48

your notes and go, okay,

28:48

let's try a better bass.

28:50

00 PM beat faster. And, and then, you know,

28:53

you can quite see quite

28:56

quickly what you want to do. And so from there you can

28:58

either complete the song and

29:02

put it into complete you. Some often it will

29:04

happen really quickly. For me, I, if I decide I

29:06

like a song, I can finish it.

29:10

Other people might like to leave

29:10

it in progress for another week

29:13

and listen to it a week again. and then they can

29:15

decide, you know? And sometimes you put things

29:18

in progress and you might

29:20

work on it and go, actually

29:20

no, I'm putting it back

29:23

in the sketchbook for the

29:23

moment cuz it's not working.

29:26

So you don't want to have too

29:26

many songs in your in progress

29:30

folder, cuz that's sort of like

29:30

the work that you've got to do.

29:32

So you try things out and if you

29:32

don't like it, you can put it

29:36

back in the sketchbook and see. I've got a, a sketchbook

29:37

that's got more than a

29:41

thousand songs in it. You know, if I ever

29:42

have a creative rut, I could go back and.

29:45

You know, mi mine,

29:45

these things for Yeah.

29:48

Song ideas. Um, yeah.

29:51

So, so that's, that's pretty

29:51

much the process for how you

29:55

can have endless, um, creativity

29:55

and sources for your music.

30:03

Fantastic. There are so many bits

30:04

in there that I'd never

30:06

considered doing that I am

30:06

totally gonna take forward.

30:09

I think the most poignant

30:09

thing for me are the buckets,

30:11

the three buckets where

30:11

you've got the sketch, you've

30:14

got the work in progress,

30:14

I might call it paraphrase.

30:17

And then the, the final, what

30:17

was the final bucket again?

30:19

The third bucket. Oh, you can have

30:20

complete, so you can call it whatever you want or, or release it.

30:23

Ready to go on

30:23

SoundCloud, you know?

30:26

Yeah. Whatever you

30:26

want to, yeah. I, I think that that's a, that's

30:28

a fantastic idea and I like

30:30

the idea of waiting as well,

30:30

um, to listen to the, the song

30:34

before you decide whether or

30:34

not you're gonna take it forward

30:36

to actually giving it time to,

30:36

to almost marinate on its own,

30:39

and then you come back to it. How many songs would you

30:41

have in the in progress?

30:44

What's a, what's a healthy amount of songs to be working on at any given

30:46

time? Yeah, that's, that's a

30:47

very good, um, question.

30:49

I, I usually have, you know,

30:49

about 10 in there that I'm

30:53

liking and then, then you can. Yes, can be between 10

30:56

and 20, but try, try and

30:59

keep it definitely under. Close, closer to 10.

31:03

Cuz, cuz that's, yeah. The ones that you really

31:05

think are, are actually, you

31:08

know, really good songs that

31:08

you want to want to release.

31:11

And so yeah, the idea with

31:11

the, um, with the safety word,

31:15

what, what we've been doing

31:15

for three and a half years is

31:18

releasing, um, a song or an

31:18

EP every five to six weeks.

31:24

To, um, to feed the, uh,

31:24

Spotify algorithms and, and

31:29

also just for ourselves. It feels really good to

31:30

always have something

31:33

that's just come out. And then a track U usually

31:35

has a good cycle for about

31:38

five weeks, you know? Um, and it, it feels like on

31:40

social media, you can talk about

31:43

that track for at least a month

31:43

after it's out, but then sort

31:47

of on week five you can stop

31:47

talking about the track and then

31:50

week six you can, you know, talk

31:50

about the new one coming out.

31:53

And it's like this nice cycle that you can have and people that.

31:58

Uh, uh, fans of your music

31:58

always have something

32:00

that's fresh and then the

32:00

idea of something else

32:03

coming out that they can

32:03

look forward to as well.

32:06

Fantastic. It's a bit, I, I mean,

32:06

testament to yourselves

32:09

and, and your songwriting partner there for the amount of music they put out.

32:11

And it's quality music, which is, it's incredibly impressive and I can see.

32:15

Through this workflow,

32:15

how it is possible.

32:17

Cause I think right at the

32:17

beginning of, of the, um,

32:20

demonstration of the way you described it, you mentioned about how you stopped sound

32:22

designing you, you, when you're

32:26

writing a song, cuz I, I've

32:26

fallen into that trap and

32:28

I'll, I could sit there for a couple hours and come up with it, this great pad sound,

32:30

and then I might not actually

32:32

take this song any further. And then that, that

32:33

idea dies, you know? Yeah.

32:35

And being able, not, like

32:35

you said, not get emotionally

32:39

attached to the, to the

32:39

song and stay objective.

32:42

Create the song, complete

32:42

it, come back to it in a week

32:44

and decide whether or not you're gonna take it forward. And I can totally see

32:46

how you would come up with so many songs.

32:50

It's about

32:50

having as much, um, thing

32:53

much work done before you

32:53

start the sessions as well.

32:57

So that's even like having

32:57

all of your drum samples

33:00

really clearly marked

33:00

like your favorites, like.

33:04

Your favorite 10 kick

33:04

drums, your favorite 10

33:08

snares, so you're not

33:08

cycling and spending hours.

33:11

Cuz these are things I used

33:11

to do, spend, you know, half

33:14

an hour finding the perfect

33:14

snare when really, you know,

33:17

you've got your 10 favorites

33:17

or something like that.

33:20

And that's even for bases. You know what, that's why you

33:21

say you have your dedicated

33:24

base of ST and you have all

33:24

your, they might be patches that

33:27

you've made too, that you can. You know, subbase one,

33:29

subbase two, you know,

33:32

synth wave app, bridge base,

33:32

you know, whatever it is.

33:35

But I, I create patches and then

33:35

label them too, or I relabel

33:41

other patches or put them into

33:41

folders so you can find them

33:44

really quickly cuz you don't

33:44

want to be spending time, you

33:47

know, cycling presets or trying

33:47

to create a sound that you hear

33:51

in your head, but then you lose

33:51

the momentum for creating the.

33:56

because yeah, as I said, you

33:56

can always come back to shape

33:59

the perfect lead sound and

33:59

spend an hour on it if you

34:02

decide that the track's killer. And it's worth spending two

34:03

hours, three hours on that

34:07

perfect lead sound and that that

34:07

it is, cuz you've got the track

34:10

already there and all it needs

34:10

is that one little thing that's

34:13

gonna take it over the edge.

34:15

I think it's,

34:15

um, it kind of echoed something

34:17

that I read a while back and it's, I, what I tried to instigate in my own songwriting,

34:19

admittedly not as anywhere near

34:22

as prolific as yourself, but

34:22

it was a case of I try and have

34:24

separate sound design sessions

34:24

to a songwriting session.

34:28

Yeah. And not having, um, like

34:28

not having any cross.

34:32

Crossover between the two. Yeah. Is that something you would

34:34

say is, is a definite do?

34:36

Yeah,

34:36

definitely. Well, I, I have sessions where

34:37

I'm just organizing my samples

34:40

or organizing my vsts and, and

34:40

organizing the, the, um, yeah.

34:46

Or doing sound design yet

34:46

just, just exploring new,

34:50

um, vsts that I might

34:50

have just downloaded.

34:52

So I'm not doing that while

34:52

trying to create a song.

34:54

I'm just like, okay,

34:54

I've got this new vst.

34:58

I want to learn how to. . Um, and I'm just gonna

34:59

do that, you know, rather

35:02

than trying to do it while

35:02

making a song, cuz it, it's

35:05

too distracting doing both.

35:07

Yeah. Kimber. Yeah.

35:08

So my next question off the back of that is then, so you've got your

35:10

work in progress, you're working

35:13

on it, and then you wanna move

35:13

it to the completed folder.

35:16

how do you know, at what point

35:16

do you know, you know, what

35:18

this song is, is ready to move

35:18

into that completed folder?

35:21

Is there a, what, what,

35:21

what is that point?

35:23

How, how do

35:24

you know that? Um, well, I think depends

35:24

on the style of song that

35:28

you're, you're making. Um, . So if, if you can listen

35:29

to it through, and it's,

35:35

um, exciting throughout.

35:37

So there's another thing that

35:37

I use is like the, um, the,

35:41

the rule of eights or 16th.

35:43

So every Yep. Eight bars, something

35:45

is happening, something is changing.

35:49

You know, is it, is it boring? You know?

35:52

, is it progressing? Is there a beginning,

35:54

middle, and an end?

35:56

Because a song is very much

35:56

like telling a story, um, is

36:00

there some sort of payoff? Like, is this worth three or

36:02

four minutes of someone's time?

36:06

Like, does. Does the song just sort of

36:08

repeat itself within, like if

36:11

you've heard the first 10 or 20

36:11

seconds, is there a point for

36:14

people to watch the rest of it

36:14

or listen to the rest of it?

36:19

Um, yeah, but that's a very

36:19

individual, um, question.

36:22

Then that's up to the artist to,

36:22

um, decide what sort of music

36:27

they wanna make and what sort

36:27

of stories they want to tell.

36:30

And worlds they want to create. So where does

36:33

your songwriting

36:33

partner come into this process?

36:35

Is he doing, is he doing

36:35

the same thing as you or are

36:38

you working together or do

36:38

you, do you bring the ideas

36:40

together at a certain point?

36:41

Well, often, um,

36:41

we'll have writing sessions

36:45

where we get together and

36:45

we do this process, uh,

36:48

in the same room, um, of.

36:50

I'll, I'll do a lot more

36:50

of it myself though.

36:52

Often I'll come to him

36:52

with, with a song, but

36:55

we find that it is, um,

36:55

a lot more, um, valuable.

37:00

It, it feels like the

37:00

right thing to do when we

37:02

create a track together,

37:02

um, sort of from scratch.

37:05

And we are doing the

37:05

whole process like that.

37:08

He, he also, he makes, um,

37:08

music, he is not so into

37:13

computers and stuff, so he's like the analog and I'm the digital, but he

37:15

has like an op one and a.

37:19

Bunch of like little micro music

37:19

type makers and stuff like that.

37:22

And he records it onto an eight

37:22

track digital, eight track.

37:26

So he'll often have stuff

37:26

like that and he'll bring that

37:29

over to me and go, oh, can

37:29

we make something from this?

37:33

So he does his own type

37:33

splurging sessions and he'll

37:36

save them down and then I

37:36

can cut them up and make

37:39

something, um, new from that.

37:42

And that's how some of the moving forward in reverse stuff came about.

37:46

Um, Oh, I love

37:48

this. I'm sort of, uh, awestruck

37:48

by this process cuz I've been

37:51

trying to find a way, cuz

37:51

you mentioned there about

37:54

time and um, Time is, is,

37:57

yeah. Well, I've got a full-time job. I'm, I'm a high school teacher

37:58

in a school for autism.

38:02

I've got a nine year old son

38:02

and I'm probably someone that

38:06

you wouldn't think would be

38:06

able to be prolific with music.

38:11

Um, . Yeah. So I've got everything going

38:12

against me, but then I try

38:16

not to, to use that as, as an

38:16

excuse or a problem, and I just,

38:21

and so, you know, some days

38:21

will be really full on, and

38:24

it might only have 20 minutes

38:24

or half an hour, but I see it

38:28

like going to the gym and it's

38:28

like exercising your musical.

38:33

and so it, it's becomes

38:33

easier for me to create, to

38:39

do, to get the the splurge

38:39

done than to not do it.

38:43

And I feel really bad if I don't do it. But you, you don't beat

38:46

yourself up about it, but,

38:48

you know, um, it's cuz I enjoy

38:48

that, that thing of having

38:52

the seven days later to go,

38:52

oh, what did I do a week ago?

38:56

And you can look in

38:56

your folder and go, Oh,

38:58

I didn't do anything. Why didn't or you go, oh, I

38:59

did seven tracks on that day.

39:02

Let's have a listen to those. Yeah, and that's

39:03

really exciting. You know, it's like a,

39:05

um, birthday present, you

39:08

know, it's like you get to open it up and you go, oh, what am I gonna hear?

39:11

Because you forget what

39:11

you've made like a week ago.

39:14

And cuz you know, it might

39:14

have been another 20 songs.

39:18

um, since then. And, and so it's like you're

39:19

hearing it for the first time,

39:22

like someone else made it

39:22

and you go, wow, what's that?

39:26

And yeah, it's really exciting. And that's why you listen to

39:27

it away from the computer too.

39:30

So you're not looking at the midy notes or you're not looking at the door.

39:33

You're actually just hearing

39:33

it as a piece of music.

39:36

So is that how you stay motivated then you mentioned

39:37

about, um, finding time.

39:39

Cause you're, you sound

39:39

like you're a very,

39:42

very busy individual. What were the DJing as well?

39:44

Um, so. , is that how you stay motivated?

39:48

You? You say they're exercising

39:48

the musical muscle, which is

39:50

one in one of my notes here, and I was gonna ask about how do you stay motivated?

39:53

Do you have it as like habit and routine? Now it's a case of.

39:56

, I need to do this. And then you get the payoff

39:57

the week later in that you can

39:59

listen to this music back is

39:59

how, how you stay motivated.

40:02

Yeah. Yeah. It's just about, yeah, just,

40:03

just doing it every day.

40:05

And the more that you do

40:05

something, um, they say

40:08

it takes like 30 days to

40:08

form a habit, you know?

40:11

And so if you are creating music

40:11

every day, you know, and it's

40:15

what, what you do, you know,

40:15

when you maybe first get home

40:18

from work or when you know,

40:18

whatever the time is for you.

40:20

Some people are mourning people. They could get up and do it.

40:22

I'm not a morning person. I like to stay up.

40:26

00 AM or something and

40:26

do it when everyone else

40:30

is asleep, you know? And that, that's a nice

40:31

creative time for me.

40:33

But whatever works for you. And you know, it

40:35

depends, depends on your situation, you know.

40:39

But if you, if you can find half

40:39

an hour to do something like

40:42

this and do it every day, just

40:42

as a minimum commitment, you'd

40:46

be amazed at what you can do.

40:48

And in a month, you know, if

40:48

you've done one song every

40:50

day for a month, , at least

40:50

probably five of those are

40:54

gonna be really awesome songs. You know you got an EP

40:58

. Marc Matthews: Yeah, Yeah. It's that compound

41:00

effect, isn't it? It's doing little things

41:01

often and they're gradually

41:04

building build and build and

41:05

snowball. And it doesn't matter if

41:05

the song's not good because

41:08

it was a, it's still a

41:08

worthwhile use of your time.

41:11

because you're getting

41:11

better at creating beats

41:14

faster, creating melodies,

41:14

creating pads, you know,

41:17

just doing, doing everything. So it's never a waste of time

41:18

if the song doesn't work out.

41:22

And that's how you've gotta see it as well. You might have a week where

41:24

none of the songs you wanna

41:26

move forward, but you've

41:26

still got gotten better

41:29

at music production and

41:29

playing your instrument and

41:32

using your vsts and using

41:32

Ableton or whatever you use.

41:36

And so it's, yeah,

41:36

it's never a waste of.

41:39

Fantastic. So you mentioned there about

41:40

getting better over time.

41:43

Was it quite challenging, might

41:43

not be the right word, but when

41:46

you started this process, was

41:46

it, I suppose challenging would

41:49

be, was it quite a challenging

41:49

thing to do in terms of.

41:52

, this, these, these, these restrictions in this finite amount of time and

41:54

everything combined together.

41:56

Yeah. So

41:57

when, when I

41:57

started this process, um, did

42:00

it as, as a monthly sort of,

42:00

um, challenge as it was called.

42:04

And then you, you challenge

42:04

yourself to go, okay, I'm gonna

42:06

do this every day for a month. And as I said before,

42:08

habits form within a month.

42:10

So you go. You think I'm only doing this

42:11

for a month, I can keep going.

42:14

I'm gonna do this. And obviously you get to the

42:15

end of the month and you want

42:17

to keep going because you've

42:17

written like at least 10

42:20

songs that are really cool. And usually before I started

42:22

this process, it might take

42:25

me three months to come up

42:25

with one song, you know?

42:28

So it's, it was pretty life

42:28

changing for me, you know?

42:32

Yeah. A real eyeopener. So I've, I've never looked

42:33

back from, once I discovered

42:37

this, um, this process. Yeah.

42:39

Yeah.

42:39

Excellent. I think for the audience

42:39

listening, I think it's like the key bit there is that

42:42

continuation and persevering

42:45

and getting, um, and it echoes

42:45

a conversation I had, uh,

42:48

with another artist in a, in,

42:48

in one of these interviews

42:50

whereby it was a case, I

42:50

think he said just, just break

42:53

through, just continue going,

42:53

and, you know, and you will.

42:56

Come out the other side. It's probably the wrong

42:57

way to put it, but yeah, it kind of makes sense.

43:00

And then at the end of it, you're like, like you said there, after those 30 days, you.

43:03

You have that, that habit

43:03

and then, then you have that

43:05

routine and it's ingrained

43:05

in you, you continue on

43:07

with it, which is amazing. I've, um, one thing I was gonna

43:09

say is I've realized we're

43:11

time here, we're already at 45

43:11

minutes and I wanna, I wanna

43:13

touch on vanity life, so, okay. Um, could you give our, cuz

43:15

it is the, like the, the, uh,

43:18

the point of recording this

43:18

episode, it is the most recent.

43:21

Sort of single. Correct. Can you give our audience

43:22

a bit of a breakdown of how that song came to life?

43:25

Um,

43:25

yeah. Well, that, that, that song

43:26

came through, um, a, the

43:29

splurging process that I do. Um, so I didn't, didn't

43:31

think much of the

43:33

song when I wrote it. I just, you know, it was

43:35

just throwing ideas around.

43:38

And then I, I did put it

43:38

into the in progress phase

43:43

in, um, so if you're doing. With a, a band

43:44

mate or something. I often will send, um, my band

43:46

mate, the, the songs that I are

43:51

at, the ones that I decide that

43:51

are worth moving forward with.

43:55

And so I just emailed him

43:55

the MP3 mixdown of it.

43:59

And I think within like, you

43:59

know, five minutes of me sending

44:03

it to him, he was like, that

44:03

one, we've got a, I've, I've

44:06

got a melody already, can I

44:06

come over and record something?

44:09

So, you know. . Um, so it, I think it was

44:10

like a Friday and he, he came

44:13

around Saturday morning and

44:13

just went laid, laid down some

44:16

vocals and I was like, wow. You know, he'd almost written

44:18

the whole whole song like from

44:20

hearing it and being inspired

44:20

by that particular one.

44:24

Um, and yeah. It, it came together

44:27

quite quickly like that.

44:30

And then we, we like to workshop

44:30

vocals together and sort of

44:34

like what the theme of the

44:34

song is, what we're trying to

44:37

say and that sort of thing. And so the Song of Vanity

44:38

Life is, um, about how.

44:43

, particularly artists can feel

44:43

a lot of pressure on social

44:46

media to have to be constantly

44:46

not only creating something

44:51

and feeding the algorithm

44:51

beast, but also only presenting

44:56

their best sort of self.

44:58

Sort of like that. , you know, um, cuz people don't

44:59

want to really hear about, you

45:02

know, how bad your day was and

45:02

how much you hate your job.

45:05

Or , you know, , they,

45:05

they, they just want,

45:08

they're there for the good

45:08

time, you know, , um, yeah.

45:10

So it can often feel like,

45:10

you know, you, you've had a

45:13

really hard day and you don't

45:13

really want to post a social

45:16

media and, and that's where

45:16

batching and that sort of thing.

45:20

is a really good thing to do. Um, that's another conversation.

45:24

Um, . . But, um, yeah, so,

45:24

so Vanity Life is, is about

45:29

sort of rising above this

45:29

sort of, um, it's striving

45:33

for vanity metrics and, and

45:33

this ideal image that you have

45:38

on social media and rising

45:38

above that, um, to be able to

45:42

present something more real.

45:45

And authentic. And so in the film clip we

45:46

had a lot of fun sort of,

45:50

um, dressing up as, um, yeah.

45:53

Fein and that as possible with

45:53

makeup and glitter and, you

45:56

know, um, yeah, female quotes

45:56

and stuff and just, just being

46:01

a bit over the top and glam. And that's that sort

46:02

of like, look at me,

46:05

TikTok culture kind of. .

46:07

Marc Matthews: I, I totally You can see how it would

46:08

satirize that sort of culture.

46:11

Yeah. Um, and it's great to do that. Yeah.

46:13

I mean, PE people don't really know. We're joking, but

46:15

that doesn't matter. ,

46:18

Marc Matthews: yeah. It goes back to what you said earlier, doesn't it? About like you're creating

46:20

it for your own enjoyment and

46:23

somebody else enjoys it then. Fantastic. You know, you mentioned

46:24

there about, um, that.

46:29

The vocals were recorded the second day. Have you ever done it the other

46:31

way around then, where you've had vocals first and then put

46:32

the sort of the arrangement?

46:35

Yeah. Yeah. John, John sends me

46:36

Dictaphone recordings

46:39

of him, like out in the. You know, sometimes it could be

46:41

on the toilet, wherever he is.

46:45

Very reverbing there, . Um,

46:45

but he'll send me little

46:48

bits and he is like, oh, can

46:48

we make this into a song?

46:51

And so like, I'll listen to

46:51

it and then, you know, copy it

46:54

into the door and sort of work

46:54

something around obviously.

46:57

And then I'll send it to

46:57

him and, and we do a lot

47:01

of like sending stuff cuz

47:01

it's easier than getting in

47:04

person so we don't get to

47:04

see each other in person.

47:07

Too much, you know, once a

47:07

week or something like that.

47:10

Um, so yeah, sending files

47:10

back and forth, like what

47:13

do you think of this? How about that one? Um, yeah, so some, sometimes

47:14

it works like that.

47:17

Or he'll have a guitar

47:17

line that he'll, he'll play

47:19

or something like that. And he's got a melody and, and

47:20

it's quite funny some of the,

47:24

the first sketches that, that

47:24

you'll hear just to anyone else.

47:28

Think that doesn't sound like

47:28

doesn't sound like a song,

47:31

but we just totally trust each

47:31

other and know that it's gonna

47:34

be totally different by the

47:34

time we actually do it as well.

47:38

Yeah,

47:38

I, I know what you mean though. When it, when it comes to

47:39

singers and, um, I'm not a

47:42

singer myself, but I come up

47:42

with melodies and, and, and it

47:44

is kind of where inspiration

47:44

strikes my, you never know

47:47

when that situation's gonna

47:47

be, and it can be in very

47:50

weird situations, you know? Um, but that's great that

47:51

you can do it from the other way around as well.

47:53

So you can actually start from,

47:53

From lyrics or from vocals.

47:57

Yeah. And then do it, uh,

47:57

do it that way around. So with regards to this

48:00

splurging process, you mentioned

48:02

a few key tools earlier that

48:02

you used to come up with chords.

48:05

I think it'd be quite cool

48:05

for our audience if you could

48:07

maybe list off a few of like

48:07

the, your most important

48:10

tools that you used during

48:10

this splurging process.

48:13

Um,

48:13

yeah. So, um, one of the ones

48:14

that I really like is, is.

48:18

, which is a, um,

48:18

chord composing tool.

48:22

And so you can set what key

48:22

you want it in, and then you

48:25

can use your left hand to, to

48:25

play up the, the sort of scale.

48:30

You press one key and

48:30

it gives you a chord.

48:32

And I find that's a really

48:32

nice way of creating, um,

48:37

you know, a chord sequence

48:37

quite quickly is, is by using

48:41

something like that and another. That is equally as good as

48:43

Scaler Two is the Captain

48:47

Chords one, um, in Insta chord.

48:50

Um, yeah, very similar. Um, just yeah, depending on,

48:51

you know, the feel or look

48:55

of, you know, what you like. Um, and, and there's, there's

48:57

even other ones that, um,

49:01

I've experimented with that

49:01

you can get, they can spit

49:04

out melodies for you as well. I, I prefer to write my

49:06

own melodies, but if.

49:10

, you know, if you want something

49:10

to, to start your inspiration,

49:14

it's, you know, could, could

49:14

be a tool you want to look.

49:17

As well.

49:18

Fantastic. I'm gonna look at those

49:19

cuz it, it kind of, um, resonates with me.

49:22

Well, yeah, it's, it's something I've been doing with my own sound.

49:25

Right. Sound writing. I combined songwriting

49:26

and sound design, my own

49:28

songwriting recently, which

49:28

is where I'm trying to start

49:31

with chords and, um, at the

49:31

moment I'm just picking a

49:34

scale as you've done there and. Quite arbitrary and then

49:36

trying to come up with the

49:38

chords and I can be sat there for quite some time trying to come up with the chord

49:40

progression, but I'm certainly gonna try out this scale

49:43

on the one as well. Yeah, well it's, it's quite,

49:43

quite nice, like cuz you even have it like, um, spit,

49:45

spit out some chords for you.

49:49

. So like, you know, four

49:49

bars or eight bars and you

49:52

can listen to it and go, do I like those chords? And there might be just

49:54

one chord that you go, no, don't like that.

49:57

And then you can just highlight

49:57

it, press um, you know, um, what

50:01

is it, the, uh, yeah button.

50:04

Then it'll give you a different chords. You listen to that and go,

50:05

oh, get that works for me.

50:08

Now I'm gonna go with that. And it's, it's a good

50:10

way to, um, yeah.

50:12

Have, have something

50:12

to start the song cuz

50:15

that's, you know, yeah. Start, starting the song is,

50:16

is the, can be the hardest bit.

50:19

So yeah.

50:20

Yeah, a hundred percent. These are fantastic ideas.

50:23

, I'm gonna take so much of

50:23

it, of this away and use

50:25

it in my own productions

50:25

and, uh, audience listing.

50:27

If you do as well, please

50:27

do let us know which bits,

50:30

if not all of it, you've taken away and used cuz I'd be intrigued to know.

50:33

Cause I think it's fantastic. So, off the back of all this,

50:35

so you've got all these great

50:37

tools, you've got this process. Um, are there any sort

50:39

of tools or techniques

50:42

that you think could help

50:42

improve your songwriting

50:45

and production workflow? Um,

50:47

yeah, at the moment I'm, I'm learning how to master properly because,

50:49

uh, we still often, you know,

50:53

mastering is, is, you know,

50:53

the dark art of mastering.

50:56

I, I, um, I think it's,

50:56

it's a really good skill.

51:00

So I'm, I'm learning how

51:00

to, um, master in, in ozone.

51:04

Um, cuz that's just something

51:04

I, I can do it already to a

51:08

basic level, but I'd like to

51:08

be able to do it, you know,

51:11

to the level that you pay

51:11

someone a hundred, $150 to do.

51:15

Um, and that, that's, that's

51:15

sort of what I want to,

51:18

um, Get on to next one.

51:21

One of the other things that I,

51:21

I didn't mention is, um, with

51:25

beat making, I think it's a lot

51:25

more fun once I started using

51:29

a pad controller to make my

51:29

beats rather than, um, using a

51:33

mouse and clicking, it's just

51:33

like this, being able to, you

51:36

know, tap in the beat and rather

51:36

than program it is just a lot

51:41

more, um, fun and you come up. More interesting things as well.

51:47

So having some sort of, and

51:47

that's the same with Melody

51:49

as well, having a keyboard,

51:49

you know, even if it's a 25

51:53

key keyboard, you know, rather

51:53

than clicking like things I

51:59

i's just, you get a lot more

51:59

organic kind of sounding music

52:03

and, and especially with, um,

52:03

lofi music, you want those

52:09

high hats not to be right. Too synchronized.

52:11

You want. , you know, swaying around

52:13

and have a bit of a

52:15

human feel to them. And that can be fun and you can

52:17

always, you know, um, quantize

52:21

it later on if you do want it

52:21

to be a robotic kind of thing.

52:24

. Marc Matthews: Brilliant. Um, once again, I, I've been on

52:25

a songwriting binge myself, and

52:28

it, you've pretty much, you,

52:28

you reson everything you're

52:30

saying is resonating with me

52:30

because I've done exactly that.

52:32

I've moved away from

52:32

the mouse clicking beat

52:35

creation and admittedly

52:35

amusing my mid keyboard.

52:38

I've got a smaller controller base. It's not in the studio with

52:39

me and, um, to create beats.

52:43

And one thing I've done,

52:43

Percussion in particular is

52:46

I'll have the, uh, the eight bar

52:46

loop of four while loop playing

52:48

with the, with the metronome. And then I'll have a load

52:50

of percussion sounds and I'll just play random stuff,

52:52

random bits and pieces. And it goes back to what you

52:54

said earlier, that you could

52:56

play all this and then you

52:56

might find there's three or

52:58

four little mini notes, a

52:58

little progression that you,

53:01

you get rid of everything else. Yeah. And then you have

53:02

that great bit there. and it's through experimentation

53:04

and just matching that keyboard

53:07

that I come up with it, rather than sit there with a mouse and think, right,

53:09

I'm gonna put this little, this bit of percussion here.

53:12

Yeah, this bit of percussion

53:12

on this and this here,

53:14

and realized 15 minutes

53:14

later I don't like that.

53:17

Whereas I could have just jammed on the jammed on the keyboard for eight bars and

53:19

come up with something great.

53:22

Um, so yeah, everything

53:22

you're saying is fantastic

53:24

and I think the audience is gonna get so much outta this. It's brilliant.

53:27

Absolutely brilliant. No, it's a

53:28

life-changing thing if

53:31

you can get it right. Yeah.

53:34

I can imagine if you're, if you're knocking out a thousand

53:35

songs in, in, in a year,

53:38

I'm, I'm, I'm not impressed. I mean, that would, that

53:39

would be sig that's probably

53:42

the most prolific in terms

53:42

of individuals being on, on

53:44

the podcast, which is, which

53:44

is, and it's quality as well.

53:47

That is the key that what the music you're putting out is, is also quality.

53:50

So I just throw, throw

53:50

that in there as well.

53:52

That's right.

53:53

Yeah. It's, it's hard to, to

53:53

say it to people without

53:56

sounding like you kind of. Arrogant or cocky or

53:59

something like that. But I'm, I'm very humble

54:01

person and, you know, um,

54:06

but it's, it's all about the,

54:06

the systems that you have in

54:08

place that allow you to, to

54:08

do things that you wouldn't

54:14

think that you'd be able to do.

54:16

Yeah, 100%

54:16

an audience listening.

54:18

Do take away all of

54:18

these nuggets of wisdom,

54:20

information and do feedback. Whether you're watching this on

54:22

YouTube, put it in the comments,

54:24

or if you're listening on your

54:24

podcast player of Choice, just

54:26

put, I say review or DM on

54:26

Instagram and let us, let's

54:30

know what you're using, cuz. Uh, whichever part of this

54:31

you're gonna use in your own

54:34

production, cuz there's so much

54:34

in here that's so useful and

54:36

I'm gonna be using it myself. I know that much. So Simon, we're, we're sort

54:38

of almost at the hour mark

54:40

now, so what I'd like to give you the opportunity now is just to where, where can our

54:42

audience find you online?

54:44

Where can they find, uh, your

54:44

music and more about you,

54:47

you as, uh, you as a band? Yeah. So,

54:49

um, you can go

54:49

to ww dot the safety word dot.

54:54

, and that's our, um,

54:54

like tap link page.

54:57

And that usually has, everything

54:57

that's current for us has

55:00

links to our Instagram,

55:00

Facebook, YouTube, all of that.

55:05

Um, TikTok Twitter,

55:05

we're on all of them.

55:09

Um, it also just has direct

55:09

links to our latest songs.

55:13

Our, um, what's coming up also,

55:13

what's just been released.

55:16

Our latest video clips,

55:16

our latest press, uh,

55:20

interviews, things like that. I'm gonna put this, uh,

55:21

podcast up at the top.

55:25

Fantastic. For next week, . Um,

55:26

it's my late to air.

55:28

Brilliant. Yep. . So yeah, that's probably

55:30

the, but obviously if you look us up on Spotify, we

55:32

are there, the safety word.

55:36

Um, yeah, YouTube, uh, what are

55:36

we, the Yeah, actually YouTube

55:40

just changed to at the safety

55:40

word, and we're the same on, on

55:44

TikTok and on Instagram as well.

55:48

Yeah. Fantastic. Simon, thank you so much for

55:49

joining me on this today. I know it's quite late

55:51

where you are now. It was probably

55:52

reaching 11 o'clock.

55:54

Yeah, it's 11, 11 0

55:54

2 now, but that's, that's fine.

55:57

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, uh, time flies,

55:57

it's day having fun . Exactly.

56:02

That These, these podcast

56:02

episodes, I never get

56:04

through everything that I want to get through. I, I find I always over-indulge

56:05

with my show, um, with

56:09

my questions and stuff that I have written down. But there's so much to take

56:11

away from this episode in

56:13

terms of songwriting, and I think it's massive and I think it's gonna be so.

56:16

For, for, for the audience listening. So a really, really big thank

56:18

you for joining me today.

56:20

Yeah,

56:20

thank you very much. I've had a great

56:21

time chatting You.

56:24

No, it's been brilliant and uh, I'll let you enjoy what's left of,

56:26

um, well there's only an

56:28

hour left, left of the day. That's right.

56:31

And, uh, we'll catch up soon.

56:32

Okay, cool. Thank you very much. Hey, this is the artist Gray

56:34

t-shirt problem and my favorite

56:37

episode of Inside the Mix

56:37

podcast is episode 40, where

56:41

Mark talks to Zach Vortex

56:41

about staying consistent with

56:44

your mixes and your releases.

56:47

And, uh, that has been very,

56:47

Uh, challenging for me to

56:52

do, and so it's kind of lit a

56:52

fire under me to start doing

56:55

more releases and staying

56:55

consistent with the, with

56:58

the releases that I put out.