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1:55

Music

2:11

Hello! Hello! And

2:13

welcome to my favorite murder. That's

2:15

Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen Kilkera.

2:17

We're dressed for Easter. I keep

2:19

accidentally doing that. Like dressing for

2:21

holidays? huge

2:33

holiday in 1962. Yeah, what did you

2:35

guys do? First of all, fuck you. I

2:37

was born in 1970. I was born in

2:39

1970. Wow, that

2:41

would have been so shitty. I was like, really?

2:44

What do you guys do back there when you

2:46

were married to the astronaut? What you used to

2:48

like to do for fun on Easter? It was

2:50

a bigger deal. I think it still is

2:52

though. I went to the park near my

2:55

house and there were like three different camps,

2:57

like doing all the Easter cookout things. Right.

2:59

And hiding things. I mean, separate from

3:01

it being a religious holiday, I

3:03

do think it is the most fun,

3:05

second only to Halloween or Christmas, obviously.

3:08

It's like a mid-spring fun thing for

3:10

kids that I remember looking forward to

3:13

it just because it'd been like, what

3:15

are we going once in the next

3:17

thing where we get to like have

3:19

a kid time? Totally. Well that must

3:21

have been nice for you Christians. Yes

3:23

God, we Christed around all and died

3:25

eggs, but we did, it made me laugh

3:27

because So the hospital is the family

3:29

that we grew up next door to

3:32

who we spend every holiday with and

3:34

did, like I have pictures of my

3:36

uncle Steve with a cigarette in his

3:38

hand pointing to where the eggs are

3:40

hidden because I'm like three years old

3:42

and just the youngest. So we always

3:45

did Easter together and we would go

3:47

and die eggs a little like the

3:49

night before in the barn, blah blah

3:51

blah. And my cousin Stevie did that

3:53

with his daughters and Nora and whatever.

3:55

But of course, everyone's ignores a senior.

3:57

His daughters are out of the house.

3:59

So my sister calls because they weren't

4:02

going to do Easter, because it was

4:04

just a bunch of adults. And my

4:06

cousin, Steve, called my sister, and goes,

4:08

we have to do Easter. And she

4:10

was like, yeah, OK. And he's like,

4:12

we're not going to not do it.

4:14

We have to keep doing it. And

4:17

she was like, OK. We're going to

4:19

go through it. It's like since 1972.

4:21

Our families have gotten together and somehow

4:23

been like, yes, today is the day.

4:25

Here's some eggs, kids, whatever. Chocolate. Same

4:27

with Passover, which involves hiding something for

4:29

the kids to find an egg. Same

4:31

thing. It's like so clearly. Yeah, these

4:34

things. But the difference is, and the

4:36

reason we're not as excited about Passover,

4:38

is the hours, it feels like, of

4:40

storytelling and like prayers and shit before.

4:42

You pray over the wine, you pray

4:44

over the this, you pray over the

4:46

this, you pray over the this, you

4:49

pray over the this. It's like, can

4:51

we fucking eat, like everyone hates it.

4:53

But then the youngest gets some lines.

4:55

The youngest gets some lines. And that's

4:57

the day I was turned on. I'm

4:59

a natural. And did you know your

5:01

lines or did you have to read

5:03

them out of a book? I read

5:06

them because it looked very like studios.

5:08

Yes, that's right. And special and Jewish.

5:10

And you're like, these are all the

5:12

things that I will lead. Look at

5:14

me. This was about me. Special and

5:16

studios. That is a really weird parallel

5:18

though. I never thought about that. The

5:21

Passover is Jewish Easter. Yeah. Essentially. Or

5:23

Easter. That's right. And full of respect

5:25

to you and yours. Thanks for the

5:27

idea. Ours has a lot less bloodshed.

5:29

You have more candy. It was the

5:31

one son as opposed to any son.

5:33

Right. All the sons. Well I'm wearing

5:35

this because I think I unconsciously put

5:38

it on because I'm listening to Miranda

5:40

July's new book. It's called All Fours.

5:42

Oh. So I just cosplayed as her

5:44

today. Completely. an accident. Okay, here we

5:46

are. Do you like that book? Yeah,

5:48

I love the book. She's an incredible

5:50

writer, but it's one of those things

5:53

where it's like, this is definitely going

5:55

to get you depressed. So are you

5:57

ready to get in that headspace right

5:59

now? And I don't know what the

6:01

answer is, but you're going to find

6:03

out. I will. You're going to run

6:05

out of Midway. Yeah. So that's what

6:07

I'm doing. I thought you were going

6:10

to talk about the corrections corner that

6:12

we have. No, I have not heard

6:14

about Valerie the Dachshund. Before we get

6:16

to the bad stuff, let's just talk

6:18

about the good stuff, which is kind

6:20

of, it's good and bad, Valerie the

6:22

Dachshund went with her family on a

6:25

trip in South Australia to Kangaroo Island.

6:27

They did some camping. Okay. Valerie got

6:29

loose. and it's been like 16 weeks

6:31

and she keeps getting spotted owning this

6:33

fucking island somehow surviving she won't come

6:35

to anyone but she's like taking over

6:37

the island and thriving and surviving and

6:39

surviving and basically doesn't want to be

6:42

found I don't know it won't come

6:44

to anyone and her owners are devastated

6:46

but it's this kind of thing of

6:48

like shit man she's fucking she's like

6:50

living free live in the island life

6:52

I mean it's like pretty impressive she's

6:54

just like you know sporty a little

6:57

low rider who's just fucking tearing across.

6:59

Is she like hanging out with kangaroos

7:01

or is that just the name? I

7:03

don't know. I don't know who she's

7:05

hanging out with. I don't know what

7:07

she's eating or how she's surviving. I

7:09

don't know where she's sleeping but she

7:11

doesn't look emaciated. She looks like there's

7:14

something going on or she's like made

7:16

a pact with the other animals there

7:18

and they're like they've taken her. I'll

7:20

definitely make your party more fun. I

7:22

can't help you about her in HR

7:24

or clean That is I immediately pictured

7:26

her for some reason standing on the

7:29

edge of a cliff wind blowing in

7:31

pride and prejudice exactly She's just like

7:33

finally. It's the life I wanted domain

7:35

my kingdom. I don't know if she's

7:37

like a hero for our ages like

7:39

get the fuck run away and fucking

7:41

go live on an island. Do what

7:43

you want, Valerie, and to all the

7:46

Valerie of the Dachsons out there that

7:48

are listening right now, girl, find your

7:50

kangaroo island. Get your kangaroo island, whatever

7:52

it is. And run around on it.

7:54

And live! Don't come back for any

7:56

call or text or anything. No, no,

7:58

it's so like cookie, you go treat,

8:01

treat, and she'd be at your fucking

8:03

feet in two seconds. Yeah, maybe, maybe,

8:05

maybe. That just reminded me. Blossom was

8:07

barking like a lunatic which I'm like

8:09

is this your new thing in the

8:11

morning? I looked over there was a

8:13

puppy coyote trying to come up onto

8:15

the patio and I ran over to

8:18

make sure and there were four other

8:20

ones like grown ones or puppies puppies

8:22

but like and you adopted them all

8:24

then blossom oh my god and there

8:26

to make friends so they can eat

8:28

her later anyway the coyote drama will

8:30

not end in my backyard oh my

8:33

god that's terrifying it was like a

8:35

little pack what and it did look

8:37

like cute straight dogs and then I

8:39

was like these are these are the

8:41

these are the dogs that eat dogs

8:43

yeah it takes like four of them

8:45

right now but in the future it'll

8:47

just take one you know I've never

8:50

seen bright and prejudice I know I

8:52

know I know there's so many people

8:54

I don't want to fight I don't

8:56

want to fight it's not there was

8:58

no like decision made really not that

9:00

kind of girl and so it never

9:02

came up a girl with a heart

9:05

and a brain and sense and sensibility.

9:07

You truly will love it. I know

9:09

I will. Like I don't know what's

9:11

taking me so long. Well and also

9:13

Matthew McFadden. Yeah. Everyone's favorite part of

9:15

succession is the romantic lead. I just

9:17

heard a whole thing about his hand

9:19

twitch and I'm like why I have

9:22

to see this I have to see

9:24

it. Here's what I'll say. First of

9:26

all I literally just watched it yesterday.

9:28

It is cinematically one of the one

9:30

of the more satisfying movies that's ever

9:32

been made. It's not just like like...

9:34

It's not just a Janos and Girl

9:37

Flick type of thing. Truly not. Okay.

9:39

There's so much incredible acting, so many

9:41

of the best. of the best British

9:43

actors are in this movie. Brenda Blethlin

9:45

as the irritating mother will free your

9:47

soul. You will love her so much.

9:49

I guess it's just like, I know

9:51

I'd be a peasant back then. So

9:54

why do I want to watch fucking

9:56

rich people traipsing around for real? I

9:58

know I'd be a peasant or I'd

10:00

be a scullery maid or I'd be,

10:02

you know, something. something dirty something shitty

10:04

something with like my fingernails were always

10:06

gross and like you have a lot

10:09

of like liver paste under your fingernails

10:11

yeah and like so many children for

10:13

some reason yeah so like what I

10:15

don't I don't know it's always like

10:17

right now today I don't but you

10:19

back then I absolutely would have been

10:21

required to definitely give it you know

10:23

what just put it 15 minutes on

10:26

your timer and then start it and

10:28

see where you end up I know

10:30

all of it I know okay No

10:32

one get mad at me, please. No,

10:34

no. But there's a bit of the

10:36

warning of like, oh, this is somehow

10:38

historical or it's going to be dry

10:41

in some way. Yes. It's not. Okay.

10:43

Okay. Okay. I mean, the only reason

10:45

I watched Bridgeton and I liked it

10:47

was because you told me there was

10:49

something really dirty in the first six

10:51

of it. Should I? So tell me

10:53

there's something incense and sensibility. It's a,

10:55

yeah, there's a, the really intense fingering

10:58

scene. Three quarters the way. Is that

11:00

what you want to hear? Yes. Really

11:02

like locked eyes. It's insane. Dr. Shocker

11:04

comes, that comes around and just blows

11:06

everything out of the water. In this

11:08

tiny town in Victoria, England. Like it's,

11:10

and then it goes back to normal.

11:13

It's very, it's very strange. Stop it.

11:15

Let's do this podcast. Let's do a

11:17

corrections corner and then knowing full well

11:19

that we're going to have to do

11:21

another corrections corner for what I just

11:23

said about Jane Austin book. But this

11:25

one makes me laugh really hard because

11:28

I think our audience now knows us

11:30

so well that they're like, I know

11:32

what you meant. Of course, you don't

11:34

know this, but I will be nice

11:36

and tell you. I love that like,

11:38

I think what you meant was like

11:40

trying to, like we can't think got

11:42

a word and they know what we're

11:45

trying to say. Also truly, and I

11:47

don't know how many times I have

11:49

to say this, when I just say

11:51

stuff, that is what I'm doing. There's

11:53

in no way did I think that

11:55

as you were retelling me, the Amistad

11:57

trial, that when you were like John

12:00

Adams, blah, blah, blah, blah, that I

12:02

would that my response was going to

12:04

be historically accurate from an educated mind,

12:06

any of those things. No, no memory.

12:08

Well, so in the story from last

12:10

week, the Amistad trial, which is episode

12:12

476. I explained that President Van Buren

12:14

appeals the decision for the Amistad Party

12:17

to return home, and then I say

12:19

that the abolitionist asked former president and

12:21

current Massachusetts Congressman John Quincy Adams, you

12:23

know him, I say, to represent the

12:25

group in court. My responses, of course,

12:27

Paul Giovanni. A few response to everything.

12:29

Like they don't always, we always cut

12:32

a lot of that out because otherwise

12:34

this whole show would be. Just talking

12:36

about Paul Yamadi, but still, referring to

12:38

his, you were referring to his TV

12:40

mini series, John Adams. Well, Stephanie, a

12:42

listener emailed with the corrections corner, John

12:44

Quincy Adams is the son of John

12:46

Adams. It's actually a very common mistake.

12:49

And then Elizabeth Dot Gray on Instagram

12:51

also caught it commenting. I'm so sorry,

12:53

but Paul Giamati played John Adams, John

12:55

Quincy was his son, played by the

12:57

haughty, hot, hot, Evan Moss backpack, who

12:59

has one of those, like, why, he's

13:01

so hot without being hot? Yes. Like

13:04

Walton Goggins? Yes, exactly. Why am I

13:06

so attracted to this person? Well, I

13:08

was going to say because Evan Moss

13:10

backrock, who is the brother from the

13:12

bear. And from girls, the fucking incredible,

13:14

his character was incredible. A total piece

13:16

of shit in girls is so good.

13:18

But also, he has a little bit

13:21

of Vince in his face to me.

13:23

When I first watched The Bear, I

13:25

was like, that guy looks like Vince.

13:27

And he has Vince's like coloring to

13:29

the blonde. Oh my God, you're totally

13:31

right tall. The eyes of like, the

13:33

eyes of a person that's going, what

13:36

are you doing, man? Yeah. All the

13:38

time. your actual like he knows what's

13:40

behind what you're doing yeah and you

13:42

can't trick him no yeah that's real

13:44

and he's gonna use it this guy

13:46

though he looks like he's gonna use

13:48

it against you in the future right

13:50

Vince is like I'm gonna I'm gonna

13:53

I'm gonna help you book a hotel

13:55

with this information that I have about

13:57

this is how I know like to

13:59

do something really nice for you but

14:01

this guy is like this guy I'm

14:03

your drug dealer careful so be careful

14:05

so that's corrections corner anyway did that

14:08

help all your history students We drove

14:10

that one right into the wall. Well,

14:12

listen, here's what's important. We have a

14:14

podcast network, and there's a lot of

14:16

stuff going on. There is, it's called

14:18

Exactly Right Media. Yeah, here's some highlights.

14:20

Yeah, this become Buried Bones. Kate and

14:22

Paul headed to 1924 England for part

14:25

one of their two-part series about a

14:27

young couple faced one of the unplanned

14:29

pregnancy and a police force faced with

14:31

an open and shut murder case. Until

14:33

a new discovery changes everything. Yeah, and

14:35

then over on the knife our newest

14:37

show that we're so proud of Hannah

14:40

and Pasha bring you the story of

14:42

Jennifer Thompson a college student who survived

14:44

her brutal assault She did everything she

14:46

could to help identify her attacker only

14:48

to learn years later that the wrong

14:50

man had been convicted. You should be

14:52

listening to the knife regularly. It's so

14:54

freaking good. They're so great. Also they

14:57

just got featured on iTunes in the

14:59

like the The Knife as a podcast

15:01

just got featured. That's a new and

15:03

noteworthy. Oh my God. Go take a

15:05

look at that. Yeah. And you will

15:07

see. Also, very new, very noteworthy podcast

15:09

that we love so much as Ghosted

15:12

by Rose Hernandez. This week, Rose is

15:14

honestly stunned when iconic actor and comedian

15:16

Mo Collins, who I love the most.

15:18

Incredible. She shows up with a real

15:20

life haunted house story that has everything.

15:22

A pultergeist, a ghost, a ghost, and

15:24

a very freaked out real estate agent.

15:26

on I Said No Giffs, two-time survivor

15:29

contestant Zeke Smith disobez Bridger with a

15:31

gift. They bringing him a gift. even

15:33

though the podcast is called, I said

15:35

no gifts. They don't care. And they

15:37

just keep bringing him gifts. They chat

15:39

about processed cheese, airport renovations, and the

15:41

universal truth of dust. Shit. What could

15:44

it be? That's heavy. What's the universal

15:46

truth? It's just everywhere and we're made

15:48

of it. Oh. It's like in our,

15:50

in our skin, pores. It's also stars.

15:52

Oh, also, here's a special announcement for

15:54

anybody listening who lives in the Chicago

15:56

area. Two of our podcasts are coming

15:58

to the Den Theater in Chicago. So

16:01

first, the Banana Boys are performing their

16:03

live on May 8th, and then I

16:05

Said No Gifts is taking the stage

16:07

to record a live episode on May

16:09

23rd. So go to the Den Theater,

16:11

laugh. Then you can come home and

16:13

listen to your own laughter a few

16:16

days later on I Said No Gifts.

16:18

Go to the Den theater.com. Those two

16:20

shows are, I feel like all the

16:22

shows on our network, but those who

16:24

specifically are so good live. Oh yes.

16:26

Like you will have the best time,

16:28

go by yourself, bring a first date,

16:30

it'll be like, it'll be fine. Yes,

16:33

both of those shows. you're completely right

16:35

both of those shows as something to

16:37

do one night right will deliver in

16:39

every way absolutely yeah and exciting March

16:41

news this week's episode of rewind was

16:43

originally released right after the 2016 election

16:45

and we said then our infamous quote

16:48

this is terrible keep going and so

16:50

we're re-releasing some of that March that

16:52

Karen if you if you're watching this

16:54

on our YouTube page exactly right media

16:56

You'll see all this fucking incredible, oh

16:58

my god, that t-shirts, great. Is that

17:00

nice? I knew you would love that.

17:02

We brought it back, we have made

17:05

a gigantic tote bag that you can

17:07

root around in forever. You guys are

17:09

tote people. These? Sweat pants, which I

17:11

told the story the other day, I

17:13

wore my own merch out because these

17:15

sweat pants are so comfortable, you don't

17:17

want to take them off. I have

17:20

the, um, fuck you, I married ones

17:22

and they're like the softest thing I've

17:24

ever, they're real soft. So soft and

17:26

very cash that it's, this is terrible,

17:28

keep going. It's just kind of right

17:30

up on your hip. I might take

17:32

these pretty lucky. And then, of course,

17:34

the mug, the best mug ever. And

17:37

I love ever. And I love. And

17:39

I love. And I love. And I

17:41

love. And I love. And I love.

17:43

And I love. And I love. And

17:45

I love. And I ever. And I

17:47

love. And I love. And I love.

17:49

And I love. And I ever. And

17:52

I love. And I love. I love.

17:54

I love. I love. I love. I

17:56

love. I love. I love. I love.

17:58

I. I love. I. I. I. I.

18:00

I combination. Real nice. Very good. So

18:02

go to exactly right store.com and you

18:04

can see all of it and get

18:06

whatever you feel like. That's right and

18:09

you know with all the protests that

18:11

are basically happening every weekend now just

18:13

remember that this was a saying that

18:15

you and I came up with One

18:17

of us said this is terrible, the

18:19

other one said keep going. It's from

18:21

our 2016. Yeah. After the election episode.

18:24

And so we're relaunching it now for

18:26

these terrible times that we live in

18:28

to just bring people some sort of

18:30

comfort. You know what I said? I

18:32

said Sally forth to Vince today. Oh

18:34

yeah. Yeah. He's like, what are we

18:36

going to do? And I'm like, Sally

18:38

forth. Yeah. And it felt real and

18:41

right. Yeah. You have to listen to

18:43

go old Jim. Not

18:45

everyone who handles your personal information

18:47

is going to be as careful

18:49

as you are. And it only

18:51

takes one mistake to expose it

18:54

to hackers and identity theft. Maybe

18:56

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22:08

Alright, you're first. So my story

22:10

this week, and I remember when

22:12

Marin and I were talking about

22:14

picking it as a story, because

22:16

this documentary about this story came

22:18

out in 2007, and I saw

22:20

it very soon after, and it's

22:22

the living proof of like it

22:24

was a different time, even though

22:26

it was only 2007, it seems

22:28

recent. But the story I'm about

22:30

to tell you, and the way

22:32

it was kind of presented at

22:34

the time, compared to how it

22:36

probably would be presented now, is...

22:38

pretty crazy. There's a lot to

22:40

be grateful for in terms of

22:42

where we are right now, even

22:44

though it's terrible and we have

22:46

to keep going. Also, there's some

22:48

good stuff. So, let's start at

22:50

the beginning. It's the morning of

22:52

June 15th, 1959. It's right before

22:54

my first birthday. And 22-year-old Linda

22:56

Riss, who's a beautiful woman, a

22:58

lot of people say she looks

23:00

like Elizabeth Taylor. She actually just

23:02

kind of has a little baby

23:04

face and she's very kind of

23:06

glamorous. But I'm sure Liz Taylor

23:08

was like the height of beauty

23:10

at the time. So they're just

23:12

saying she was just an attractive

23:14

woman. So Linda's about to leave

23:16

her Bronx apartment where she lives

23:18

with her mother to head into

23:20

work in Manhattan where she works

23:22

as a receptionist. But before she

23:24

can do that, the doorbell rings.

23:26

Linda's mother asks who's there. And

23:28

from the other side of the

23:30

door, a man calls out package

23:32

for Miss Linda Riss. So that's

23:34

not weird. Linda is used to

23:36

getting gifts either from her doting

23:39

fiance, Larry, or from friends and

23:41

family who are sending them gifts

23:43

because Larry and Linda just recently

23:45

announced their engagement. Got it. In

23:47

fact, their engagement party had been

23:49

the night before. So the idea

23:51

of like getting sent something to

23:53

the apartment wasn't weird. But as

23:55

Linda opens the front door to

23:57

see what she's been sent, she

23:59

only sees the delivery man for

24:01

a flash. And then she feels

24:03

what she thinks is boiling water

24:05

having been thrown in her face.

24:07

Her mother screams in horror as

24:09

Linda starts screaming in pain. Her

24:11

eyes are burning, her skin is

24:13

burning, she's rushed to the hospital,

24:15

where she'll learn that, of course,

24:17

that liquid was not hot water,

24:19

it was a lie. Right? So

24:21

if you don't know, that's the

24:23

chemical that used to be used

24:25

in soap and cleaning products. It's

24:27

very caustic in its raw form,

24:29

and that means it can burn

24:31

human skin. and the obsessive delusional

24:33

man behind this attack seems committed

24:35

to making Linda's life a living

24:37

hell. This is just the beginning

24:39

of a long and twisted, not

24:41

love story. Kind of the opposite

24:43

of a love story that's presented

24:45

as a love story and was

24:47

at the time. The details of

24:49

which will feed the tabloid press

24:51

for decades. And in the early

24:53

2000s becomes a documentary called Crazy

24:55

Love. This is the story of

24:57

Linda Riss and Bert Pugash. I

24:59

think I've heard of this one.

25:01

I think you have. So the

25:03

main sources used today are the

25:05

2007 documentary Crazy Love directed by

25:07

Dan Clores and Fisher Stevens. You

25:09

guys definitely saw that, but it's

25:11

been so long. Yes. It was

25:14

like a very early at that

25:16

time, a documentary, which is like,

25:18

can you believe this story? And

25:20

it was kind of reflective on,

25:22

can you believe what the tablades

25:24

used to be like or what

25:26

these things, you know, what used

25:28

to fill up our daily media?

25:30

Yeah, how we were okay talking

25:32

about certain things. the media kind

25:34

of present the stories and this

25:36

is what you will think of

25:38

this now. Right. It's like when

25:40

they call it a crime of

25:42

passion where it's like that's not

25:44

a fucking thing. Right. Yeah. So

25:46

the other sources are the book

25:48

a very different love story by

25:50

Barry Steinback and several articles from

25:52

the New York Times archives and

25:54

the rest of our sources are

25:56

in the show notes. So the

25:58

story actually starts two years before

26:00

this lie attack. in 1957, when

26:02

a very successful 30-year-old negligence attorney

26:04

named Bert Pugash sees 21-year-old Linda

26:06

Riss standing alone in a park.

26:08

And Bert will later say, quote,

26:10

I thought she was the most

26:12

magnificent gorgeous-looking female I had ever

26:14

seen. She was so proud-looking, the

26:16

way she carried herself with her

26:18

shoulders thrown back, her head held

26:20

high, her long dark brown hair

26:22

just stirring in the breeze. Literally

26:24

from the moment I saw her

26:26

from 30 feet away, I fell

26:28

hopelessly in love with her. So

26:30

he's at a zoo explaining. Yes.

26:32

The female. The female. Of this

26:34

species. She's proud. Right. She's proud

26:36

with long hair. Her fur is

26:38

long. Yes, and luxurious. I also

26:40

think it's kind of sad because

26:42

you were not in love with

26:44

her. You were attracted to her

26:46

probably mostly sexually. And you don't

26:49

know her as a person at

26:51

all. So he introduces himself to

26:53

Linda. He wants to win her

26:55

over, so he begins to send

26:57

her flowers and gifts. It's a

26:59

clear case of love bombing, and

27:01

he's got the money to do

27:03

it. He takes her out to

27:05

the city's swankiest nightclubs. They rub

27:07

elbows with celebrities. He takes her

27:09

flying in his airplane. It's just

27:11

a classic kind of like, I'm

27:13

going to invade your life. You're

27:15

the thing I want. I'm going

27:17

to get it. Let's do this.

27:19

Yeah. As charming as Bert seems

27:21

at first, he's also emotionally volatile

27:23

and manipulative. He's constantly pressuring Linda

27:25

to sleep with him. She won't

27:27

do it unless they're married. Then

27:29

he goes on to accusing her

27:31

of having sex with other men

27:33

behind his back. And he is

27:35

so nonstop and confrontational about this

27:37

fact that Linda, this is such

27:39

a like time and place. horror

27:41

show. Linda goes to her doctor

27:43

to get him to confirm her

27:45

virginity for Burt. Oh my god.

27:47

How old is she? 22. Wow.

27:49

Yeah. That's creepy. It's super creepy

27:51

and it's like so a guy

27:53

in a park comes up to

27:55

you. Yeah. And just won't leave

27:57

you alone. And now he owns

27:59

your fucking body in life. Yeah.

28:01

And now you're answering to him

28:03

in this way because he has

28:05

a plane? Right. Or because he'll

28:07

take you to cool places. I

28:09

mean it was the setup back

28:11

then. Yeah, that's true. It was

28:13

the whole idea is like you

28:15

get pretty enough and then you

28:17

get these things. and whatever comes

28:19

along with that you deal with.

28:21

Totally, totally. Okay, so Linda's still

28:24

very young. This relationship is very

28:26

confusing for her. Bert is dazzling

28:28

her with attention and affection and

28:30

all the things his wealth can

28:32

afford, but he also treats her

28:34

terribly at times, and then things

28:36

begin to escalate to physical violence.

28:38

So several months into their relationship,

28:40

Linda then finds out, Bert is

28:42

married and has a young daughter.

28:44

Oh shit. Yes. So that's when

28:46

she decides she's had enough. This

28:48

is not the romance that has

28:50

been presented or that she wants

28:52

it to be. Bert swears to

28:54

her that he's in the process

28:56

of ending his marriage. He even

28:58

shows Linda his divorce papers as

29:00

proof. She's skeptical and she will

29:02

later say, quote, I never trusted

29:04

Bert. I never trusted men. When

29:06

Bert showed me a divorce decree,

29:08

I wrote down the number and

29:10

I had a lawyer check it.

29:12

Not many girls would do that.

29:14

Damn girl. I feel like if

29:16

you have to go that far

29:18

though, it doesn't matter if it's

29:20

real or not. Right. You know?

29:22

Yes, and also, I'm sorry, so

29:24

if you prove it is real,

29:26

the love's back on. Right. He

29:28

still lied to you about being

29:30

married. Yes, that's the, let's focus

29:32

on the real problem. Right. Right.

29:34

But back then. Right. Right. Right.

29:36

Right. I think that's the vibe

29:38

is like, this is your chance

29:40

to get married or this is

29:42

your chance to land a, you

29:44

know, a lawyer, something amazing. So

29:46

Linda does her due diligence and

29:48

it pays off. She finds out

29:50

Bert's divorce papers are fake. And

29:52

he himself is a lawyer, so

29:54

he just asked his secretary to

29:56

mock up convincing-looking documents. So this

29:59

is when Linda finally ends things,

30:01

and not long after she does,

30:03

she meets someone new. This guy

30:05

named Larry. Larry is only a

30:07

year older than Linda, and he

30:09

doesn't have the money that Bert

30:11

does, but Linda describes him as,

30:13

quote, a nice... going guy. He's

30:15

also described as quote one of

30:17

the most beautiful men she had

30:19

ever seen. Damn so now she's

30:21

at the fucking zoo. Yes I'll

30:23

have that koala. She's like how

30:25

about I get some of this?

30:27

Yeah and then also maybe money

30:29

isn't the thing I'm really looking

30:31

for here. The young couple genuinely

30:33

seems happy together, but Bert isn't

30:35

ready to let Linda go. He

30:37

bombards her with calls and impromptu

30:39

visits, begging her to take him

30:41

back. At first, she finds it

30:43

sort of flattering. Because I mean,

30:45

like, and that is the... The

30:47

play. We are always talking about

30:49

what women did or didn't do

30:51

and whether they handled it or

30:53

not or anything. And it's like

30:55

you're getting the full court pressed

30:57

by this con man and it's

30:59

your fault that you're falling for

31:01

it. We've all been 22. It's

31:03

like hard. It's fucking hard. Oh.

31:05

So at first Linda finds all

31:07

of it pretty flattering, but then

31:09

she says quote it shortly becomes

31:11

very stifling Bert was relentless He

31:13

would not stop calling. He would

31:15

not stop following me. It was

31:17

a time of hell for me

31:19

So Linda is forced to continue

31:21

to reject Bert and then Bert

31:23

begins to spiral soon. He's threatening

31:25

to take his own life He's

31:27

also saying things to people like

31:29

quote if I can't have her

31:31

I'll see to it that nobody

31:34

will And Bert actually goes so

31:36

far as to hire men to

31:38

throw rocks at Linda's window, hoping

31:40

that she will then turn to

31:42

him for protection. Okay, weird. Of

31:44

course, she knows it's him. She's

31:46

very freaked out by this escalating

31:48

behavior. And so finally, she goes

31:50

to the cops. What's the course

31:52

of this song? They don't help

31:54

her. Linda says, quote, the police

31:56

officer at the desk told me

31:58

that they weren't going to do

32:00

anything, quote, because he's a lawyer.

32:02

So she decides to take matters

32:04

into her own hands. She changes

32:06

her phone number, which telling you

32:08

if it's 1960 something at this

32:10

point Changing your phone number is

32:12

I bet you she had to

32:14

like submit tons of paperwork right

32:16

to do that right big pain

32:18

in the ass Then she finds

32:20

a receptionist job one block from

32:22

the nearest subway stop so she

32:24

doesn't have to like expose herself

32:26

or go all around She even

32:28

tries to file legal charges against

32:30

Bert, but he retaliates by writing

32:32

his own bogus claims aimed at

32:34

making the risk's lives miserable So

32:36

he's like ready and willing and

32:38

very able to weaponize the kind

32:40

of legal system against her and

32:42

in defense of himself So now

32:44

it's spring of 1959 Oh, it's

32:46

59 when she has to. They

32:48

just got phones. Now she's trying

32:50

to change her number. They're like,

32:52

ma'am. We don't have anymore. It's

32:54

still Murray Hill, 35709. There's no

32:56

other phone numbers. It only goes

32:58

up to 5,000. Right. Okay, so.

33:00

The spring of 1959, Linda and

33:02

her boyfriend, Larry, get engaged. And

33:04

as you can imagine, Bert freaks

33:06

out. Linda will later say, quote,

33:09

that was my undoing. The minute

33:11

I accepted a ring and got

33:13

engaged, that's when Bert went ballistic

33:15

completely. That's when he really lost

33:17

it. So... Bert shows up outside

33:19

of Linda's house with a loaded

33:21

gun, fully prepared to shoot Linda

33:23

and Larry as they leave her

33:25

home, but at the last minute

33:27

he changes his mind. He will

33:29

later admit, quote, it's not an

33:31

easy thing to kill, to shoot

33:33

a person. I had to retreat.

33:35

Kind of making himself sound like

33:37

a victim in that situation. This

33:39

is too hard for me, where

33:41

it's like, this was your idea.

33:43

So instead of doing the dirty

33:45

work himself, Bert decides he's going

33:47

to outsource the job. that brings

33:49

us back to the morning June

33:51

15th 1959 when the man Linda

33:53

thinks is a delivery person throws

33:55

lie in her face. So who

33:57

the fuck could you get to

33:59

do something like that? I mean

34:01

like this person is just a

34:03

rondo and is like yep I'll

34:05

do that. Sure. Disfigure a stranger.

34:07

And usually at the end of

34:09

these stories, they disfigure a person

34:11

for like $300. Right. Exactly. So

34:13

of course, this horrible thing happens.

34:15

Linda's rushed to the hospital. Her

34:17

friend will later remember, quote, Linda

34:19

just lay there unconscious with greasy

34:21

medication smeared all over her eyes

34:23

and face. There were massive scars

34:25

all around her eyes. Her cheeks

34:27

and forehead were burned terribly. So

34:29

when Linda wakes up in the

34:31

hospital the next morning, she can't

34:33

see. She's so distraught that her

34:35

friends and family are afraid that

34:37

she might take her own life

34:39

and they actually install bars on

34:41

the... Windows of the hospital room

34:44

So it was so long ago

34:46

that there weren't already bars on

34:48

the windows of hospital rooms those

34:50

windows could open Meanwhile word of

34:52

the violent attack on a young

34:54

beautiful bride to be draws the

34:56

interest of tabloid reporters Which is

34:58

kind of strange. It's like the

35:00

lead up to like the national

35:02

inquire of the 80s. Yeah, but

35:04

like I feel like this We've

35:06

done versions of this right there's

35:08

a lot of celebrity versions whatever

35:10

but this kind of straight up

35:12

a stranger. Yeah. It's the Sherry

35:14

Papini that I think that it

35:16

died. It's a scoop. There's a

35:18

scoop and we need it. Yeah.

35:20

This is like salacious. Yeah. It

35:22

just doesn't feel like they do

35:24

this as much. Yeah. It's complete.

35:26

Okay. So Linda gives them a

35:28

statement when they call saying quote,

35:30

you read about these things, but

35:32

you don't believe they could ever

35:34

happen to you. Why did it

35:36

happened to me? I only hope

35:38

to die. Oh right. So she

35:40

really gives them a quote. I

35:42

mean they're looking for Salatius and

35:44

they're looking for a horror show

35:46

and she gives it to them.

35:48

So from there the media interest

35:50

around Linda's attack grows and grows

35:52

and her story makes headlines across

35:54

New York. Meanwhile everyone who knows

35:56

Bert Pugash has the same thought.

35:58

He has to be behind this

36:00

attack. Linda spends nearly three months

36:02

recovering in the hospital and she's

36:04

placed under police protection after the

36:06

fact. Although she regains about 80%

36:08

of her vision in one eye,

36:10

she's lost her other eye. Oh

36:12

my God. As well as all

36:14

her hair, she has permanent scarring

36:16

on her face and the entire

36:19

time that she's recovered. in the

36:21

hospital, Bert is continually sending her

36:23

flowers. What the fuck? Calling her

36:25

constantly and repeatedly asking to see

36:27

her. Ewell, so just relentless sponsor.

36:29

Based on the descriptions from Linda

36:31

and her mother, the police know

36:33

that Bert was not the one

36:35

who threw the lie in her

36:37

face, but they're certain he's behind

36:39

it. Unlike before, when Linda asked

36:41

for help and got ignored, detectives

36:43

are now working very hard to

36:45

see that she gets justice. And

36:47

then I wrote in all caps,

36:49

now that she's lost and I.

36:51

Right. She needed it a minute

36:53

before that. Well, also it just

36:55

is that thing of like people

36:57

not only didn't see the warning

36:59

signs of like an obsessive stalker

37:01

type like this, it was romanticized,

37:03

it was like kind of in

37:05

the media of like, isn't this

37:07

sad for this bride, we're not

37:09

talking about the guy at all,

37:11

we're not saying... Here's a well-known

37:13

lawyer in this city. It's just

37:15

get the quote from her. Totally.

37:17

So the cops just need solid

37:19

evidence to secure Bert's conviction so

37:21

that they can make an arrest,

37:23

right? Fortunately for the cops, Bert

37:25

can't keep his mouth shut. Investigator

37:27

secure a warrant to bug his

37:29

law office and immediately catch him

37:31

on tape basically admitting that. he

37:33

orchestrated the attack on Linda. So

37:35

he's finally arrested on October 30th

37:37

1959 along with the three men

37:39

that he hired to help him

37:41

carry out that attack. Yeah. So

37:43

the Daily News reports this, Linda

37:45

brought to the station house by

37:47

her police woman guard identified the

37:49

lie thrower and then kissed every

37:51

one of the detectives who had

37:54

worked so hard. End quote. And

37:56

then I just wrote in all

37:58

caps, I don't like that at

38:00

all. No. Like a thank you.

38:02

Maybe, but also just gross. It's

38:04

gross. What are we doing? Yeah.

38:06

So as Bert's trial looms ahead

38:08

of him, his wife leaves him.

38:10

I might. So wild. He's to

38:12

disbarred. He's no... longer a lawyer.

38:14

It's not like I said disbarred,

38:16

but I said disbarred is what

38:18

I meant in my heart. Of

38:20

course, Linda hates him, so at

38:22

this point he has nothing to

38:24

lose and he starts acting like

38:26

it. He tries to mess with

38:28

everyone involved in the trial, so

38:30

he starts filing frivolous lawsuits against

38:32

the judge in the case, against

38:34

the DA, as well as against

38:36

the city of New York itself.

38:38

Right before he's supposed to head

38:40

into the courtroom, one day he

38:42

takes the lens out of his

38:44

eyeglasses and attempts to slit his

38:46

wrists, but totally just superficial wounds.

38:48

According to writer Barry Steinback, this

38:50

was Bert's attempt at orchestrating a

38:52

mistrial. Barry Steinbeck says, quote, he

38:54

thought it would incapacitate him for

38:56

several weeks too long for the

38:58

jury to be held. But it

39:00

doesn't, the scheme doesn't work, his

39:02

wounds are not going to hold

39:04

any trial back. So in July

39:06

of 1962, Bert Pugash is found

39:08

guilty of soliciting the lie attack

39:10

and is handed a maximum sentence

39:12

of 30 years in prison. When

39:14

Linda has asked for her thoughts

39:16

on the sentencing, she says, quote,

39:18

I didn't think it was long

39:20

enough I wanted him to rot

39:22

in there. And the other men

39:24

are sentenced as well. So Linda's

39:26

discharged from the hospital in the

39:29

fall of 1959. She tries to

39:31

start over. She moves into a

39:33

brand new apartment. So she's not

39:35

in the apartment where the attack

39:37

happened anymore. She starts to go

39:39

out in public. She wears stylish

39:41

wigs. She always wears big dark

39:43

sunglasses. She has an artificial eye.

39:45

She basically is kind of trying

39:47

to get back out there. But

39:49

she has this. future that she

39:51

planned that's just fading away. Yeah,

39:53

what happens to her fiance? Well,

39:55

she this is very very sad,

39:57

but she can tell she feels

39:59

like Larry wants to get out

40:01

of the engagement and then he's

40:03

like basically feels like he has

40:05

to go through with it. So

40:07

she basically tells him she's like

40:09

letting him out of it. So

40:11

she says, I don't think it's

40:13

safe for you to be in

40:15

this. because he's gonna do something

40:17

and giving him an out gives

40:19

him an out he takes the

40:21

out terrible terrible way to find

40:23

out that's not your true love

40:25

but it's how it is she

40:27

and she's right who knows what

40:29

he's gonna do once he gets

40:31

out of jail it's not gonna

40:33

be for a while but who

40:35

knows so Larry does argue at

40:37

first he promises to stay by

40:39

her side but he does eventually

40:41

end the engagement and Linda's in

40:43

this spot now where it's just

40:45

kind of like so the person

40:47

that I did want to marry

40:49

doesn't stay in and then this

40:51

guy that I kind of just

40:53

dated and thought I was having

40:55

a romance with is my nightmare

40:57

and this is just these are

40:59

my choices now. Oh no. Yeah.

41:01

So she does start seeing a

41:04

man who seems interested in her.

41:06

They date for a while. He

41:08

even proposes, but the man has

41:10

never seen Linda without her sunglasses

41:12

on and so she's really anxious.

41:14

objectively a gorgeous woman. Obviously she's

41:16

been scarred and and you know,

41:18

there's damage because of that attack.

41:20

But this is a woman who's

41:22

gorgeous enough and came up in

41:24

this very sexist and very repressed

41:26

time where a woman was raised

41:28

to build her worth on how

41:30

men, how attracted men were to

41:32

her. That was life back then.

41:34

So this kind of anxiety and

41:36

this kind of like, oh, I

41:38

hope he still picks me is

41:40

pretty par for the course. Linda's

41:42

friend suggests that she make arrangements

41:44

to meet with her boyfriend purely

41:46

for the reason of having him

41:48

see her without the dark glasses

41:50

on. So. Here's what Linda has

41:52

to say about that plan. She

41:54

says, quote, lo and behold he

41:56

came up to the office one

41:58

day and I was wearing my

42:00

clear glasses and apparently it kind

42:02

of floored him. Let me put

42:04

it that way. It was more

42:06

than he expected. He couldn't handle

42:08

it. You know it devastated me.

42:10

It hurt me. Destroyed me. She

42:12

also says you have to understand

42:14

I'm now a different person. I'm

42:16

walking. around with shades. I'm never

42:18

taking off these shades. I'm not

42:20

thinking in terms of ever getting

42:22

married. It's just not going to

42:24

happen. I am now damaged merchandise.

42:26

So that brings us into the

42:28

early 70s and now Bert in

42:30

his mid 40s He's doing time

42:32

in Attica upstate and he served

42:34

about a decade of his sentence

42:36

and of course has learned nothing

42:39

He continues to harass Linda She

42:41

says quote Bert used to send

42:43

me mail from prison pages and

42:45

pages of letters. I used to

42:47

change numbers like you would change

42:49

underwear didn't work. It never helped

42:51

no matter what I did there

42:53

was no getting away from oh

42:55

my god he like wouldn't give

42:57

it up no and also no

42:59

one's doing anything I know you

43:01

think that he'd be like he'd

43:03

get a restraining order against himself

43:05

yes like he wouldn't be able

43:07

to send those they intercepted them

43:09

at the prison yeah you would

43:11

think she couldn't call her or

43:13

something it was pre all those

43:15

things getting set up where it's

43:17

like so don't let the guy

43:19

in jail for attacking this woman

43:21

send letters to this So in

43:23

1971, as everyone knows because Georgia

43:25

covered this on this show, there's

43:27

a huge prison riot at Attica,

43:29

and during that time, somehow... Bert

43:31

crosses paths with civil rights attorney

43:33

William Kuntler. Kuntler is probably most

43:35

famous for representing the anti-Vietnam war

43:37

protesters known as the Chicago Seven,

43:39

but he also has a deep

43:41

roster of notable clients. And remember,

43:43

Bert is a rich guy, an

43:45

ex-lawyer himself. He has been giving

43:47

legal advice to his fellow inmates,

43:49

and that's probably how he met.

43:51

consular. Either way, the two develop

43:53

some sort of a relationship and

43:55

so then Linda's phone rings and

43:57

she says, quote, one day Bill

43:59

consular gets on the phone and

44:01

tells me how much Bert loves

44:03

me and he wants to get

44:05

back with me and all this

44:07

crap. And I said, if he's

44:09

so freaking interested, then why the

44:11

hell does he send me some

44:14

money? I'm living like a peasant.

44:16

I have no money. Let him

44:18

show. good faith." End quote. Okay.

44:20

So Linda's in her mid-30s. She

44:22

has been losing vision in her

44:24

remaining eye and because of that

44:26

she can't work anymore. So getting

44:28

money from the man who violently

44:30

assaulted her is appropriate and seems

44:32

normal. Sure. So Consler reports this

44:34

message back to Bert who sees

44:36

it as a win of course

44:38

because at least Linda's actually communicating

44:40

back with him. Yeah, he sees

44:42

it as an opening. Yes. So

44:44

in the documentary Crazy Love, Burt

44:46

claims this is when he starts

44:48

charging for the legal advice he's

44:50

giving to his fellow inmates, and

44:52

soon he's able to send Linda

44:54

around $100 a week. It's hard

44:56

to tell exactly how much he

44:58

sends Linda he claims in the

45:00

documentary he sends her $4,000, which

45:02

is how much in today's money.

45:04

And $72,000? $19,000. Wow. Yes. So

45:06

he's sending he's sending her money

45:08

which to me is like kind

45:10

of a good faith thing of

45:12

like yes you took away her

45:14

vision. Yeah the court should have

45:16

probably yeah yeah okay it should

45:18

have been that but this is

45:20

prehistory sure caveman times so 14

45:22

years into his sentence in March

45:24

of 1974 47 year old Bert

45:26

Pugash has a scheduled parole hearing

45:28

and Linda knows it's coming so

45:30

she writes to the parole board

45:32

She tells them to deny his

45:34

request. She says she'd like to

45:36

see him die behind bars She

45:38

actually writes quote, I want him

45:40

to come out of prison in

45:42

a box. Wow The judge grants

45:44

him parole No, uh, Bert is

45:46

ordered to stay away from Linda

45:49

as a condition of his release

45:51

which he follows story is over

45:53

right? It's such a big news

45:55

story that he has been released

45:57

from prison, that although he's not

45:59

allowed to contact Linda directly, he

46:01

suddenly has a better way to

46:03

reach her, which is on the

46:05

local news. So literally a week

46:07

after he's paroled, Linda's watching TV,

46:09

and she... sees a clip of

46:11

him in an interview where he

46:13

turns and looks directly into the

46:15

camera and says, Linda, I know

46:17

you're out there. Linda, I love

46:19

you, Linda, I want to marry

46:21

you. Oh my God. Yeah. And

46:23

now he's free. That's awful. And

46:25

if you are the reporter for

46:27

the New York Post or whatever

46:29

it is, you're like, we're like,

46:31

we're back on. Gold. This is

46:33

gold. We're not even going to

46:35

think about Morrilli if we should

46:37

do this or not. No, no,

46:39

because we have to. Because we

46:41

have to. It's been going on

46:43

at this point for like 20

46:45

years. Yeah, this story is giving

46:47

so much. So Linda's 35 years

46:49

old at this point. It's 1974.

46:51

Then in terms of single lady

46:53

years, she's about 55. Right. In

46:55

a statement in the documentary Crazy

46:57

Love, a friend will simply describe

46:59

Linda as having quote, no one

47:01

on the horizon. So big concern

47:03

for everybody at the time. Some

47:05

of Linda's own friends, including the

47:07

police woman who met Linda while

47:09

protecting her from Bert, before he

47:11

was convicted, begin to encourage Linda

47:13

to reach out to Bert. What?

47:15

Yes. So it's like they're saying,

47:17

but he loves you so much.

47:19

Yeah, what else have you got?

47:21

Kind of. Yeah, he's better than

47:24

being alone somehow. Yeah. Yes. Get

47:26

a dog. God forbid you be...

47:28

an old maid you could have

47:30

this guy yeah you could have

47:32

this guy so and also she's

47:34

if she has friends and family

47:36

saying that to her and then

47:38

she's also the one going through

47:40

this deal with however she feels

47:42

about her appearance yeah and the

47:44

change of it so about three

47:46

months after Bert is released from

47:48

prison that same police woman arranges

47:50

a meeting between Bert and Linda

47:52

honey at first it's awkward but

47:54

Linda also finds it at first

47:56

disarming and then kind of comforting

47:58

because she says quote In jail,

48:00

they made a new man out

48:02

of Burt. He was muscular.

48:04

He looked good. I wore

48:06

my clear glasses. And this

48:09

is the, this hurts me

48:11

deeply, sorry, I'm still in

48:13

this quote, but I wore

48:15

my clear glasses. I don't

48:18

think I could have revealed

48:20

myself with clear glasses

48:22

to anyone else. He saw no

48:24

difference. To him, I was still

48:26

beautiful. And the damage that would

48:28

be done to like feeling like

48:30

you might be in love with

48:32

a person, then you're like, oh,

48:34

but I have this thing and

48:36

take your sunglasses off. And that

48:38

person's like, buy. Yeah. Which is

48:40

also just what everyone goes through

48:42

in relationships. At some point you have some

48:44

sort of right, symbolic sunglasses that

48:46

you end up taking off. And

48:48

people like, or they're like, okay,

48:51

but you're so damaged that you're

48:53

like. but I don't believe you and

48:55

so I refuse to I refuse to

48:57

allow it yeah I just won't believe

48:59

it and this guy who has harmed her

49:02

repurably has gotten her to that

49:04

point where it's like well then

49:06

it'll just be me I'll be

49:08

the only one broker broker

49:10

and like worked this system

49:13

to his advantage in the

49:15

most horrifying way totally so

49:17

Linda's convinced to give Bert a

49:19

chance and eight months after He

49:21

walks out of prison for attacking

49:23

her with Lie. Linda accepts Bert's

49:26

proposal and they get married. No.

49:28

Yes. The New York Daily News

49:30

runs the front. Wow, they lost

49:32

their mind over at the media.

49:34

The New York Daily News runs

49:36

the front page headline, quote, woman

49:38

Wed's man who blinded her. Jesus.

49:40

Okay. Many years later, the New

49:43

York Times reports on the many

49:45

factors that lead to Linda's decision

49:47

to marry her abuser. Notating. This

49:49

is the list of the factors.

49:51

Quote, a Christian sense of forgiveness,

49:54

the advice of a fortune teller,

49:56

the fear that another woman would

49:58

scoop up Mr. Pugash. but mostly

50:00

she cited her need to move

50:03

forward. And then there's a quote

50:05

from Linda saying, if you're going

50:07

to remain bitter and obsessed, it

50:09

will destroy you. Okay, but you

50:12

still don't need to... Okay, tough,

50:14

misguided. That last line, of course,

50:16

echoes Bert's own crazy obsession, but

50:18

in his case, it seems to

50:21

have gotten him exactly what he

50:23

wanted. Yeah. It worked. So the

50:25

surprises that Bert and Linda stay

50:27

married for decades. Jesus. They settle

50:30

into a strange, sometimes combative, but

50:32

apparently functional partnership. But instead of

50:34

retreating to their own private life,

50:36

they become media darlings. The couple

50:39

does the round on talk shows.

50:41

They sit for newspaper profiles. They

50:43

lean into the tabloid coverage that

50:45

so often frames their relationship as

50:48

a quirky twisted love story instead

50:50

of... just a one long strange

50:52

cycle of abuse. Bert eventually starts

50:55

working as a paralegal and he

50:57

even brags after their wedding, quote,

50:59

my income doubled the first week,

51:01

doubled, maybe tripled. Gross. Super gross.

51:04

So Bert knows how to stay

51:06

in the headlines more than two

51:08

decades after marrying Linda in 1997.

51:10

He's arrested again. This time. for

51:13

harassment. You heard that right? While

51:15

Linda is recovering from heart surgery,

51:17

Bert meets a woman and begins

51:19

a five-year affair with her. Fuck

51:22

you! So this woman accuses Bert

51:24

of threatening her life, even telling

51:26

her he'd quote, blind her like

51:28

Linda. Oh my God. If she

51:31

ever refuses to see him, so

51:33

when this story comes out, in

51:35

response, Bert insists he was never

51:37

going to actually hurt her. I

51:40

was just threatening this woman. Okay.

51:42

even though your record is one

51:44

to know of actually threatening to

51:47

hurting. Meanwhile, Linda is of course

51:49

furious, but stands by him. She

51:51

tells reporters, quote, for all intents

51:53

and purposes, he's been a good

51:56

husband. He sucks right now. Are

51:58

you crying? No, I'm just so...

52:00

I know it's it's horrible yeah

52:02

it's horrible and so sad it's

52:05

so like one hallway going one

52:07

direction you have to get to

52:09

the end which is marriage anyway

52:11

possible you have to how do

52:14

we do you think that women

52:16

of today have fully incorporated this

52:18

lesson but alone is better than

52:20

this I think a larger percentage

52:23

of women now, much larger, double,

52:25

triple, probably understand that. Yeah. But.

52:27

It seems recent. Yeah. That idea.

52:29

It can't be. There can't be

52:32

that many. Yeah. I guess you're

52:34

not talk later. Talk after. Okay.

52:36

So Bert gets arrested and has

52:39

to go to trial for threatening

52:41

this woman. Linda acts as a

52:43

character witness at that trial. How

52:45

are you going to do that?

52:48

Do you know? She's going to

52:50

walk in in her sunglasses. Well,

52:52

he hasn't done that much bad

52:54

stuff since he threw fucking lie

52:57

in my face. Well, it's a

52:59

little, it's not as legit as

53:01

it might sound because Bert is

53:03

his own lawyer in this trial.

53:06

So he's ultimately convicted of second

53:08

degree harassment. None of their plan

53:10

works. Yeah. He beats the stronger

53:12

charges. So I guess that. part

53:15

does. He only serves 15 days

53:17

in jail for threatening this woman.

53:19

From here life... process on for

53:21

the two. In 2007, when Bert

53:24

is around 80 years old and

53:26

Linda's around 70 years old, they

53:28

become the subject of the documentary

53:31

Crazy Love. And Director Dan Cloris

53:33

tells the New York Times that

53:35

Bert's possessiveness was still on full

53:37

display during the filming. For example,

53:40

Bert could not follow the very

53:42

simple orders to stay away from

53:44

Linda during the shoots. Cloris says,

53:46

quote, She didn't want him there.

53:49

She wanted to talk. I told

53:51

Bert not to come back for

53:53

seven hours. Every hour his key

53:55

would be in the lock and

53:58

I would tell him to go

54:00

away. Just like, yeah, I guess.

54:02

won't drop, won't. Yeah, there's no

54:04

sound. So controlling, yes. The film's

54:07

release prompts another wave of coverage

54:09

on the couple, which results in

54:11

a very telling line from the

54:13

Guardian reporter Marianne McDonald, who writes,

54:16

quote, having spoken to Bert on

54:18

the phone, I have taken an

54:20

intense dislike to him already, creepy

54:23

man. So in 2013, when Linda

54:25

risk is 75 years old, she

54:27

dies of heart failure. Through Sobbs,

54:29

Bert tells the associated press the

54:32

associated press. That's it for me

54:34

right there. Associated Press. Through Sobs,

54:36

Burt tells the Associated Press. So

54:38

did you just get right on

54:41

the phone with the AP? He

54:43

tells them, quote, this was a

54:45

very fairy tale romance. I mean,

54:47

I guess in like, fuck old

54:50

school for fairy tales. Yeah, for

54:52

Grim's 1600s German. Where children get

54:54

eaten and cooked. And everyone's parents

54:56

dies. Yes, sir. Hardcore fairy tale.

54:59

Yeah. So over the years, Bert

55:01

Pugash has expressed remorse for what

55:03

he put Linda through, even establishing

55:05

a foundation in her honor for

55:08

the visually impaired. But he caused

55:10

it? That's right. Yes, he caused

55:12

it. It doesn't work that way.

55:15

It doesn't. It certainly doesn't. He

55:17

promised to leave that foundation, his

55:19

$15 million estate. But instead, when

55:21

Bert dies on Christmas Eve in

55:24

2020, at the age of 93,

55:26

Every penny goes to who would

55:28

you who would you think? The

55:30

girlfriend who took him to court.

55:33

A brand new one a caregiver

55:35

claiming to have been romantically involved

55:37

with him in his final years.

55:39

I mean she got hers then.

55:42

15 million dollars. Well maybe it

55:44

was his from before being a

55:46

lawyer and he had some stashed

55:48

away. He said his his pay

55:51

went up times three. I'm sure

55:53

they sold stories. I'm sure they

55:55

got paid to be in places.

55:57

I don't know. Okay. As of

56:00

a 2021 reporting, Bertz estate is

56:02

the subject of a lawsuit alleging

56:04

that he had been coerced into

56:07

changing his will ahead of his

56:09

death, unclear where that investigation stands

56:11

today, but it's just one more

56:13

bizarre twist in a saga that

56:16

despite so much coverage framing it

56:18

this way. Hardly feels like it

56:20

can be called the love story.

56:22

In fact, back in the late

56:25

70s when Linda Riss was asked

56:27

by a reporter if she ever

56:29

loved Bert, her answer seemed pointedly

56:31

elusive. She said, quote, I don't

56:34

even like the word. It's so

56:36

hard to define. And that's the

56:38

story of the crazy love of

56:40

Linda Riss and Bert pugash. Wow.

56:43

I want to see a picture.

56:45

Yeah. That's devastating. Insane. Oh, man.

56:47

Oh, she was so beautiful. Wow.

56:49

That makes me sick. So, oh

56:52

my God, well, great job. Thank

56:54

you. As

56:57

the weather starts to get warmer

56:59

and we can finally go places

57:01

again, it's time to face a

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1:00:22

Okay. Now it's your turn. Now

1:00:24

it's my turn. And we're gonna

1:00:26

take a turn. Okay, great. Not

1:00:28

right away. This is about a

1:00:30

not well-known war that took place

1:00:32

in Western Australia in the 1930s.

1:00:34

I mean, it's so not well-known

1:00:37

that we got one email from

1:00:39

a listener about it in the

1:00:41

Gmail. That's it. Okay. But I

1:00:43

think it's going to be your

1:00:45

new favorite war. Okay. I mean,

1:00:47

yeah, it's going to be tough.

1:00:49

It's going to be tough. I'd

1:00:52

say my first favorite wars is

1:00:54

mash. Okay,

1:00:56

so I'm gonna start cold and I'll

1:00:59

tell you what it's called. Okay. In

1:01:01

a moment. Okay, I'll wait. Please wait.

1:01:03

Okay, please hold. So we're in the

1:01:06

aftermath of World War I, thousands of

1:01:08

veterans. who are nicknamed Soldier Settlers, moved

1:01:10

to Western Australia. And it's a vast

1:01:12

area with a huge array of climates.

1:01:15

There's tropical coast up north, desert, and

1:01:17

the interior, a Mediterranean climate similar to

1:01:19

parts of California, on the Southwestern coasts.

1:01:22

It's a buck and beautiful place we

1:01:24

should all have moved to. We should,

1:01:26

don't you think? Remember, we did like

1:01:28

a tour which was kind of South

1:01:31

Eastern? Yeah, we didn't go to Perth.

1:01:33

We didn't go to Perth. So the

1:01:35

Australian government has bought thousands of tracks

1:01:38

of land to sell to the soldiers

1:01:40

at discounted prices in an effort to

1:01:42

reward the men for their service with

1:01:44

farmland to develop and profit from. So

1:01:47

they're trying to expand. Yeah. There are

1:01:49

more than 5,000 soldiers who buy land

1:01:51

under the scheme. And the problem is

1:01:54

that the amount of land with good

1:01:56

soil for farming in West. in Australia

1:01:58

is kind of low. So many of

1:02:00

these soldiers are stuck out on tracks

1:02:03

with low-quality soil and a host of

1:02:05

other issues that haven't really been thought

1:02:07

through. In the end, most of these

1:02:10

soldiers wind up raising sheep and planting

1:02:12

wheat, which is what's most suited to

1:02:14

the climate. And in the 1920s, there's

1:02:16

actually a string of really good years.

1:02:19

The wheat grows well. The farmers are

1:02:21

insulated of it from bad years by

1:02:23

selling wool from the sheep and everyone

1:02:26

is making money. Everything's fine. Then in

1:02:28

1929, your favorite Great Depression happens, the

1:02:30

Great Depression. The Great, the greatest, the

1:02:32

greatest depression. I was falling asleep last

1:02:35

night to The World According to Kunk,

1:02:37

by Philomine Kunk. Of course. So funny.

1:02:39

It's truly one of the best books

1:02:42

ever in period. Oh, I thought you

1:02:44

were talking about the TV show. You're

1:02:46

listening to the book. Yeah, the audio

1:02:48

book I was listening to. Yeah, OK,

1:02:51

got. At first, when the Great Depression

1:02:53

starts, the price of wheat stays pretty

1:02:55

stable. Other prices for goods tank in

1:02:58

Australia, so the government pushes a big

1:03:00

initiative to get farmers to produce more

1:03:02

wheat, because it's selling. Hey, great, let's

1:03:04

just do it. The slogan they come

1:03:07

up with for the farmers to grow

1:03:09

more wheat is, you want to guess?

1:03:11

It's wheat time, guys. No. It's more

1:03:14

complicated. It's just grow more wheat. Damn

1:03:17

it. I should have had you

1:03:19

on their creative team. God damn

1:03:21

it. The Australian Prime Minister promises

1:03:23

the farmers that the government will

1:03:25

buy the wheat at a good

1:03:28

price. Australian farmers enthusiastically take him

1:03:30

up on this offer vastly expanding

1:03:32

their wheat production. Right. But by

1:03:34

the early 1930s, there's a new

1:03:36

Prime Minister. That always fucking happens.

1:03:39

You never plan for that. Every

1:03:41

time what happens. That's Joseph Lyons

1:03:43

and the global price of wheat

1:03:45

tanks. tanks for nothing. The government...

1:03:48

You acted like you were reading

1:03:50

off the page. Good one. The

1:03:52

government, which already is facing a

1:03:54

massive deficit, actually goes back on

1:03:56

the previous Prime Minister's promise. because

1:03:59

they can do that. So the

1:04:01

situation is already fairly bleak at

1:04:03

this point by October of 1932.

1:04:05

That's where we are. When that

1:04:07

year's wheat harvest is supposed to

1:04:10

start, farmers in the town, I'm

1:04:12

going to get these wrong Australians,

1:04:14

I'm real sorry, farmers near the

1:04:16

towns of Campian and Walgoulin. That

1:04:18

sounds right. Report an issue. So

1:04:21

this area is one of the

1:04:23

drier parts of the state and

1:04:25

it wasn't as well suited to

1:04:27

farming already. Right before the farmers

1:04:29

are meant to start harvesting their

1:04:32

wheat on this land, a plague

1:04:34

overtakes the farms and rinks havoc

1:04:36

on the crops. They trample, they

1:04:38

devour, they're more than a nuisance,

1:04:40

they're a downright pestilence of epic

1:04:43

proportions. This is the story of

1:04:45

the great emu war. Oh, wow.

1:04:47

What? Imu. All of a sudden,

1:04:49

these poor, soldier, gentleman, farmers. It's

1:04:52

like, it's already not going great.

1:04:54

They're just trying to make the

1:04:56

best of it and suddenly they

1:04:58

talk their wife into coming. It's

1:05:00

going to be great. We're going

1:05:03

to be farmers. We're going to

1:05:05

own land. It's okay. It's, you're

1:05:07

afraid of birds. That's fine. There's

1:05:09

hardly any birds out here. No.

1:05:11

No. No. Alligator. And big shout

1:05:14

out to my researcher Ali Elkin

1:05:16

for even coming up with this

1:05:18

story because I saw it and

1:05:20

responded in all caps because it

1:05:22

was so exciting, you know. Yes.

1:05:25

So let me tell you a

1:05:27

little bit about emus since I

1:05:29

don't know how familiar you are

1:05:31

with them. I could be thinking

1:05:33

of kiwi which is the small

1:05:36

bird. It's not a kiwi. This

1:05:38

is the large one that looks

1:05:40

kind of like a ostrich? Yeah.

1:05:42

Okay. Okay. Okay. Charlie Stairon. Wait,

1:05:44

that's not right. Is she? No,

1:05:47

I think she's South Africa. Shit.

1:05:49

You know how I met? I

1:05:51

met Nicole Kidman. Oh, yes, Barbie.

1:05:53

I've been Barbie. Marga Robbies. Margar

1:05:56

Robbies. Man, I can't even get

1:05:58

that. Don't believe a word, I

1:06:00

say. You had so many choices.

1:06:02

I did just blonde beautiful actresses,

1:06:04

and I picked the wrong fucking

1:06:07

one. They're the world's second or

1:06:09

third largest bird. I couldn't tell

1:06:11

based on searching. They're right after

1:06:13

ostriches, so ostriches are bigger than

1:06:15

them. Then there's emus. Okay. Emus

1:06:18

are considered one of the closest

1:06:20

living relatives to dinosaurs. Yes. Right?

1:06:22

Okay. Oh man. Yeah, they're the

1:06:24

only species of bird that has

1:06:26

calf muscles. Ooh, that's so creepy.

1:06:29

Isn't that creepy? And little like

1:06:31

fighting Irish tattoos on those calf

1:06:33

muscles, even worse. And they can

1:06:35

jump seven feet high, they can

1:06:37

sprint for short distances of 40

1:06:40

miles per hour. That's fast. That's

1:06:42

like on the freeway here. And

1:06:44

that's actually about the speed of

1:06:46

an average racehorse too. So they're

1:06:48

fucking fast little shirts. They're fast.

1:06:51

Right. Emus have a pouch in

1:06:53

their throat that they used to

1:06:55

make deep booming and grunting sounds

1:06:57

for communications that are allowed. You

1:07:00

know I was going to say

1:07:02

that. This is you too, particularly

1:07:04

during breeding season. Hey. And then

1:07:06

here is where Note to Georgia,

1:07:08

Ali put a video of an

1:07:11

emu running to see how fast

1:07:13

it could go. And then I

1:07:15

got into a fucking rabbit hole

1:07:17

of emu videos. How to go.

1:07:19

I wrote zoomies because he was

1:07:22

getting zoomies. He was playing fetch

1:07:24

with a little girl, dog and

1:07:26

baby, there's a dog and a

1:07:28

baby, e-mu playing. They're fucking adorable.

1:07:30

Okay, so is this like people

1:07:33

now have e-mu farms? Like they're

1:07:35

raising them like offices. Yes. Okay.

1:07:37

So yeah, so I went down

1:07:39

this rabbit hole, I saw them

1:07:41

run, it totally looked like the

1:07:44

beginning of Jurassic Park with all

1:07:46

these long necks, just like. They're

1:07:48

really fun, and I want one

1:07:50

now. And you're, yes, I was

1:07:53

going to say, and you're like,

1:07:55

Vince, come on, just one more.

1:07:57

Come on, we got to save

1:07:59

the emus. And actually, some emus

1:08:01

can be gentle and affectionate if

1:08:04

they're raised that way. from a

1:08:06

young age, but others can be

1:08:08

aggressive and moody, especially if they're

1:08:10

not socialized property. Ditto. And they

1:08:12

may react angrily to being touched

1:08:15

or handled. Hey, what's up? So

1:08:17

they have tiny wings, so they're

1:08:19

flightless, but they're known to migrate

1:08:21

very long distances in search of

1:08:23

food and water. In the past,

1:08:26

EMUS typically moved through this area

1:08:28

that we're in toward the coast

1:08:30

without staying long. before, but there's

1:08:32

been a drought in 1932 and

1:08:34

the creation of this new farmland

1:08:37

has both cleared areas of vegetation

1:08:39

and obstacles and has established new

1:08:41

water sources for livestock and irrigation.

1:08:43

It's the perfect place for emus.

1:08:45

So in this area, in this

1:08:48

time period, guess how many migratory

1:08:50

emus visit this area at once?

1:08:54

I'm going to go ahead and

1:08:56

say... You don't have to guess if

1:08:58

you don't want to. I mean,

1:09:00

look, I don't want to guess, but

1:09:03

I have to guess. No, I really

1:09:05

want to. One emu standing here. How

1:09:07

many, do you think, fucking showed

1:09:09

up for the great emu war? Five

1:09:12

hundred? Twenty thousand. Twenty-fucking thousand emus. Oh

1:09:14

no. On to this like smallish

1:09:16

area of farmland. Because also they're eating

1:09:19

that wheat. They're drinking all but irrigated

1:09:21

water. They're like stomping, they're trampling,

1:09:23

they're like wreaking havoc. Partying. They're fucking

1:09:25

partying. This is their kind of, what

1:09:28

do you call it, burning man. It's

1:09:30

a 1932 early burning man. Totally.

1:09:32

You meet me on the plia. E-man,

1:09:34

be yourself. To put that number in

1:09:37

perspective. Ali let me know that

1:09:39

20,000 emus would fill your typical arena

1:09:41

where an NBA team would play it's

1:09:43

the exact capacity of the crypto.com

1:09:45

arena. So imagine playing basketball and then

1:09:48

you look up into the crowd and

1:09:50

it's fucking just wall-to-wall emus and they're

1:09:52

like doing weird shit like they're

1:09:54

going to come down right now. Right,

1:09:57

they're like getting ready to, and they're

1:09:59

dinosaurs. They're dinosaurs, same amount of

1:10:01

feathers as ostriches. I think so, yeah.

1:10:03

Yeah, they're similar to ostriches. You would

1:10:06

think it was an ostrich. Yeah,

1:10:08

you would. Yeah, you'd get it wrong

1:10:10

and you wouldn't be stupid for it.

1:10:12

Yeah, that's what we keep telling ourselves.

1:10:15

Right. And to make matters worse,

1:10:17

high tariffs imposed in the post-war and

1:10:19

depression area have made wire netting prohibitively

1:10:21

expensive. Oh. So they can't afford

1:10:23

to fence out the emus. That's not

1:10:26

a choice. I know. So it's literally

1:10:28

a perfect store. It is. So

1:10:30

the farmers who are all vets, remember

1:10:32

they're all veterans to World War I,

1:10:35

say to the level headed thing, and

1:10:37

they write to the Minister of

1:10:39

Defense, asking to be supplied with... machine

1:10:41

guns to kill the emos as you

1:10:44

do. Well, the problem is, and

1:10:46

I think we've talked about this a

1:10:48

lot of like, it's sheer numbers where

1:10:50

it's like, if it was 500

1:10:52

emos, they would be a little more

1:10:55

reasonable. 20,000 of these birds. One thousand.

1:10:57

And then, so maybe because the government.

1:11:00

has jerked these farmers around so

1:11:02

many times with the price of wheat

1:11:04

already. They kind of know they're in

1:11:06

trouble with these farmers already. They

1:11:08

want to appear like they're helping them.

1:11:11

So the minister says yes to the

1:11:13

gun request. But since the government

1:11:15

of Australia has smart brains that think

1:11:17

in a normal way, machine guns are

1:11:20

tightly regulated there. Yes. Can you imagine?

1:11:22

What a world to live in?

1:11:24

But also they just because the the

1:11:26

farmer... soldiers asked for machine guns. Why

1:11:29

can't they just have regular guns?

1:11:31

Right. They want in machine guns. I

1:11:33

know. It sounds more fun, probably. They're

1:11:35

probably bored out of their fucking

1:11:37

minds at this point. And they're in

1:11:40

rage. In rage. So instead, three specially

1:11:42

trained soldiers are sent from Perth to

1:11:44

the region to operate the machine

1:11:46

guns. Okay. Everyone doesn't get a machine

1:11:49

gun. Great. These three guys get a

1:11:51

machine gun. We'll send machine guns

1:11:53

to you. who can operate them. Good

1:11:55

plan. And it's not just like a

1:11:58

little machine gun that you can

1:12:00

hold and operate and move around with.

1:12:02

It's a huge tube that needs to

1:12:04

be propped up. It has a wheel

1:12:07

of bullets. It's like, you know,

1:12:09

a World War I type gun. Yeah.

1:12:11

The rest of the farmers are allowed

1:12:13

to help shoot at the emus,

1:12:15

but they have to use boring old

1:12:18

regular rifles. Okay. So the farmers also

1:12:20

agree to house the three military

1:12:22

specialist and to pay for the ammunition

1:12:24

for the guns. So not the greatest

1:12:27

deal. Yeah, but you do have to

1:12:29

do that thing where, like, after

1:12:31

a while, you're, like, sure, but you

1:12:34

did agree to do this huge, crazy

1:12:36

thing. Yes, that's true. But under

1:12:38

what pretenses? Like, were they lies? True,

1:12:40

where it's like, oh, you can farm

1:12:43

this beautiful area, but it's Australia,

1:12:45

so it's like, it's all snakes and

1:12:47

spiders. Yeah. The expectation couldn't have been.

1:12:49

Right. And no emus. Easy. There was

1:12:52

no claw. No emu claws. No

1:12:54

emu claws. We guarantee no large bird

1:12:56

will come at you on mass. Legit.

1:12:58

Dinosaur. Yeah. Hords of them. Yeah.

1:13:00

Okay, so the army specialists are overseen

1:13:03

by a man named Major Gwynedd Purvis,

1:13:05

Win Aubrey Meredith is his name.

1:13:07

Are his six first names? Yeah, cool.

1:13:09

And so he's there overseeing it and

1:13:12

then a cinematographer also joins the group

1:13:14

to film the anti-emo offensive, which

1:13:16

is great. Yeah, presumably because people in

1:13:18

the Australian government believed it would be

1:13:21

successful. They're like, let's send a

1:13:23

cameraman out there and this will be

1:13:25

great propaganda for like what we do

1:13:27

for our farmers. The soldiers arrive

1:13:29

on November 2nd 1932 when the war

1:13:32

begins. On the first day they arrive

1:13:34

a flock of 50 emus is spotted

1:13:36

at one of the farms so

1:13:38

they set up their guns on some

1:13:41

nearby high ground. The guns jam almost

1:13:43

immediately and the emus scatter. The

1:13:45

next day the soldiers have a bit

1:13:47

more success when they set up ambushes

1:13:50

around water sources but immediately proves

1:13:52

to be very slow going. Between the

1:13:54

rifles and the machine guns the soldiers

1:13:56

are able to pick off... about, out

1:13:59

of 20,000 emus, and one day,

1:14:01

they pick off about 12 emus, Max,

1:14:03

before the rest of the flock has

1:14:05

scurried out of range. Yeah. So

1:14:07

in a day's work, that's 12 emus

1:14:10

out of 20,000, and that's a good

1:14:12

day, it turns out. Oh. The

1:14:14

farmers in the military have woefully underestimated

1:14:17

their adversaries. I told you about how

1:14:19

fast they are, and I told you

1:14:21

about how they have calf muscles,

1:14:23

so they're like... So they're cool. they

1:14:26

start getting nervous. They've been instructed by

1:14:28

one of their commanding officers to

1:14:30

bring back at least a hundred emu

1:14:32

skins because emu feathers are used to

1:14:35

decorate the ceremonial helmets for a

1:14:37

particular military unit in Australia. So this

1:14:39

commanding officer was like, hey, this is

1:14:41

a great way to get a bunch

1:14:44

of fucking emus. But it's becoming

1:14:46

increasingly apparent that killing any emus, let

1:14:48

alone a hundred to bring back, is

1:14:50

not going to be easy. Yeah.

1:14:52

Because the emus have now started. to

1:14:55

appoint their own officers. Oh, who act

1:14:57

as scouts for the rest of

1:14:59

the flock. Yes. Yes. They're fucking smart.

1:15:01

They went back to headquarters and they

1:15:04

said, sorry, those guys on the hill

1:15:06

do not want what's best for

1:15:08

us. No. Something's going down. That's right.

1:15:10

One emu work correspondent wrote at the

1:15:13

time quote the emus have proved

1:15:15

that they are not so stupid as

1:15:17

they are usually considered to be because

1:15:19

they do run around like fucking

1:15:21

idiots like they do run around like

1:15:24

they look goofy like turkeys but doesn't

1:15:26

mean they're dumb no he says each

1:15:28

mom has its leader always an

1:15:30

enormous black plumed bird standing fully six

1:15:33

feet high who keeps watch while his

1:15:35

fellows busy themselves with the wheat

1:15:37

At the first suspicious sign he gives

1:15:39

a signal and dozens of heads stretch

1:15:42

up out of the crop, dinosaurs.

1:15:44

A few birds will take fright, starting

1:15:46

a headlong stampede into the scrub, the

1:15:49

leader always remaining until his followers have

1:15:51

reached safety. End quote. Shit. So

1:15:53

fucking, Papa Bear is like, hey guys.

1:15:55

Here they are. Oh, so scatter. We've

1:15:58

survived for hundreds of millions of

1:16:00

years, so we got this. Yeah, we're

1:16:02

fucking dinosaurs. No one panic. Remember those

1:16:04

cavemen? I've been back then? Remember

1:16:06

those fools? They barely made it. It's

1:16:09

those guys. These are cousins of those

1:16:11

guys. Well, they think they're going to

1:16:13

kill us. Yeah. After the first

1:16:15

week of the emus. Oh my God.

1:16:18

And that's a generous estimate that comes

1:16:20

from one of the military specialists.

1:16:22

And you know they fucking raise those

1:16:24

numbers. Absolutely. So I'm going to read

1:16:27

you this quote. The one person

1:16:29

who wrote toward Gmail about like you

1:16:31

guys should cover the story. It's really

1:16:33

crazy is someone named Zagridi, she her.

1:16:36

And Zagridi included a quote from

1:16:38

someone named John P. Rafferty that came

1:16:40

from the Wikipedia. So here is that

1:16:42

quote that Zagrati included. Okay. Quote,

1:16:44

the machine gunner's dream of point-blank fire

1:16:47

into seried masses of emus were soon

1:16:49

dissipated. The emu command had evidently

1:16:51

ordered guerrilla tactics, and its unwieldy army

1:16:53

soon split up into innumerable small units

1:16:56

that made use of the military equipment

1:16:58

uneconomic. Meaning like, you're wasting your

1:17:00

fucking bullets. Yep. Meanwhile in Parliament, Prime

1:17:02

Minister Joseph Lyons, remember him, is now

1:17:05

facing questions about the expense of

1:17:07

the emu war. One of the members

1:17:09

of Parliament from Sydney asked sarcastically if

1:17:11

any of the parties involved in

1:17:13

the emu war should be receiving a

1:17:16

medal. Harsh. Yeah. And someone says, if

1:17:18

anyone should be getting a medal, it

1:17:20

should be the emus. Sounds like

1:17:22

a fun parliament. It's true. After two

1:17:25

weeks, the emus seemed to have learned

1:17:27

the range of the machine guns.

1:17:29

They fucking... You can't hit me this

1:17:32

far. You can't get me? I'm out

1:17:34

of your range. It's like when

1:17:36

you can't leave the part of the

1:17:38

couch that you have won, and so

1:17:41

then your sister just walked just

1:17:43

out of range of like, well then

1:17:45

I'll go get myself like a cookie

1:17:47

and you can't have one. Exactly. Exactly.

1:17:50

They set up shop in the

1:17:52

wheat fields just out of that range

1:17:54

and move every time the soldiers reposition

1:17:56

themselves. Scatter when the farmers get

1:17:58

close with the rifles. All this scattering

1:18:01

and running is also causing the emus

1:18:03

to trample more wheat than they

1:18:05

would have if you had never started

1:18:07

this fucking email war. After the most

1:18:10

successful day of the war, maybe two

1:18:12

dozen emus are killed, RIP. One

1:18:14

of the military specialists examines one of

1:18:16

the dead emus and finds that it

1:18:19

has five bullets in its body.

1:18:21

Some of which are clearly old wounds

1:18:23

from the beginning of the campaign. Oh

1:18:25

shit! Which means that the emas

1:18:27

are staying alive and running at close

1:18:30

to full speed even after being shot

1:18:32

multiple times. Like they're fucking terminator. Yes.

1:18:34

They're like, oh no, we're going

1:18:36

to bring this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't

1:18:39

that creepy? Like, it's extending a message

1:18:41

with his body. It's looking more

1:18:43

and more like the emas will win

1:18:45

the war until suddenly on December 2nd,

1:18:48

the war is called off. I

1:18:50

think they're like... Let's cut our fucking

1:18:52

losses. Yes, this is insanity. The soldiers

1:18:54

claimed to have killed between 1,000 and

1:18:57

2,000 emus out of roughly 20,000

1:18:59

that were in the combat zone, and

1:19:01

the emus seemed to become a part

1:19:04

of life for the farmers at

1:19:06

this point, having bested the soldiers. Still

1:19:08

in future years, the soldiers' settlers will

1:19:10

continue to request machine guns to

1:19:12

fight up the fucking emus, because I

1:19:15

bet they're reproducing, but the Australian Ministry

1:19:17

of Defense will turn them down every

1:19:19

time. Instead, the soldier settlers are

1:19:21

supplied with additional rifles, and eventually they

1:19:24

become more successful at fending off the

1:19:26

emus on their own. Picking them

1:19:28

off one at a time. Yeah. Between

1:19:30

the 1940s and 1960s, the farmers kill

1:19:33

more than... 200,000 of them under

1:19:35

a bounty system. Oh, that's a lot.

1:19:37

Peter doesn't like that. No, that's bad.

1:19:39

I mean, they're so cute. Little babies

1:19:42

are like, they're so cute. I

1:19:44

mean, can't it be like you just

1:19:46

get rid of enough so that your

1:19:48

stuff isn't at risk? Right. It

1:19:50

always has to be this like, now

1:19:53

they've killed 200, and now they're in

1:19:55

danger. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so then

1:19:57

later eventually the price of fencing comes

1:19:59

down and this becomes a much more

1:20:02

practical way to deal with emus than

1:20:04

fucking killing hundreds and hundreds and

1:20:06

hundreds of them. Then in 1999, emus

1:20:08

become a protected species in Australia. Yay.

1:20:11

And there are about 600,000 of

1:20:13

them living in Australia today, which is

1:20:15

considered a strong population. So good, they're

1:20:17

back baby. Good, good, good. All

1:20:19

riddled with bullets and old wounds. Yeah,

1:20:22

oh my God. Yeah, Grandpa is telling

1:20:24

the stories about how he survived the

1:20:26

evil war. They thought they got

1:20:28

me with this one. I just kept

1:20:31

running. Major Meredith remember him with a

1:20:33

really long name. He goes on

1:20:35

to have a story the military career

1:20:37

having already served in World War one

1:20:40

He also serves in World War

1:20:42

two and in the Korean War with

1:20:44

distinction, but I bet that emu war

1:20:47

stuck in his cross Don't you think?

1:20:49

Yeah, the one he fucking couldn't

1:20:51

win. Yeah, and that is the story

1:20:53

of the great emu war It's totally

1:20:56

insane It's so good. Here's a

1:20:58

farmer with an emo that emo. Oh,

1:21:00

it's pretty sad He's all mad. He's

1:21:02

a big bird, right? Yeah, that

1:21:04

is a big old bird. You know,

1:21:07

he's saying, Kriki! He's saying, my calves!

1:21:09

Please, my calves! Wow. All right, that

1:21:11

was great. Thank you, Ali, for

1:21:13

finding that in the depths of the

1:21:16

internet. Nice one, Ali. I really didn't

1:21:18

understand what we were doing at

1:21:20

the beginning, but it was fun. What

1:21:22

do you think was going to happen?

1:21:25

What do you think was going

1:21:27

to happen? Here's how we're going to

1:21:29

use sheer brute force to solve a

1:21:31

problem. And then that problem's like, you're

1:21:34

not going to though. That doesn't

1:21:36

work that way. That's always, I think,

1:21:38

a better, you know, it's good, it

1:21:40

helps people evolve better ideas. Yeah,

1:21:42

you got to learn how to live

1:21:45

in harmony with nature. Yeah. You get

1:21:47

your ass kicked, if not. Or

1:21:49

how about somebody figures out cheap barbed

1:21:51

wire, you fools? You could have saved.

1:21:54

yourself so much time. Okay, so let's

1:21:56

do fucking arrays and then we're

1:21:58

also going to do our own fucking

1:22:00

arrays, which I love because it like

1:22:03

makes me think throughout my week

1:22:05

like what's going well and what's going

1:22:07

on. You know what I mean? Yes,

1:22:09

I think that was one of

1:22:11

the ideas when we originally thought of

1:22:14

this was kind of like focusing on

1:22:16

on the positive and gratitude and stuff

1:22:19

like that. Pay attention to the

1:22:21

good things. Yeah. So mine is that

1:22:23

I finally bought and put together my

1:22:25

very one of those bird feeders

1:22:27

that have a camera and an app

1:22:30

on it that you can see who's

1:22:32

eaten your bird feed. So far

1:22:34

it's a squirrel and an adorable mouse

1:22:36

and that's it. So it's not going

1:22:39

great. Well it's kind of your urban

1:22:41

version where you need to get

1:22:43

the you need to get the birds

1:22:45

there. But the squirrel's like he's like

1:22:48

angry. It's been really fun watching

1:22:50

him try to figure out how to

1:22:52

get to it. And he did or

1:22:54

she did and they finally made

1:22:56

it. hey you have an animal and

1:22:59

be like climbing the tree near it

1:23:01

clearly trying to like jump somehow yeah

1:23:03

it's like it's charming but there's

1:23:05

a whole adventure you know we got

1:23:08

my dad that for Christmas yeah we

1:23:10

still no one's put it up

1:23:12

we're like well he's not gonna put

1:23:14

it up right me and Laura not

1:23:17

put it up I guess we

1:23:19

have to task grab it at somehow

1:23:21

but well I can do it now

1:23:23

okay great if you wouldn't mind driving

1:23:26

up not at all what's worse

1:23:28

I want to do a fucking hurry

1:23:30

that is as superficial as possible. The

1:23:32

thing that's been really getting me

1:23:34

through like the last month is just

1:23:37

like a timed, like a timed and

1:23:39

planned morning latte where it's like

1:23:41

this little special kickoff treat that then

1:23:43

I don't know why, just that thing

1:23:46

where it's like, instead of like waking

1:23:48

up and just being like, man,

1:23:50

soldier through it, like get these things

1:23:52

done or start whatever. It's like, no,

1:23:55

no, no, it's like, it's a

1:23:57

little like, I'm still laying in bed

1:23:59

and then I get it, I order

1:24:02

it and I pick it up

1:24:04

and then it's just my little thing

1:24:06

that gets me from like this block

1:24:08

of time to that. block of time.

1:24:11

That is so hugely important in

1:24:13

your day-to-day life I think. I'm very

1:24:15

inspired by the the millennials and the

1:24:17

genziers who are always about like

1:24:19

get yourself a little tree. Yeah they're

1:24:22

real big into that. Yeah because they're

1:24:24

like hey guess what if I

1:24:26

don't do this I'm still not gonna

1:24:28

be able to afford a house so

1:24:31

I'm gonna fucking do it so and

1:24:33

have a daily fucking moment of

1:24:35

joy. Yes get Agro about finding your

1:24:37

little things of joy so you can

1:24:40

go from little piece of joy

1:24:42

to little piece of joy. It's very

1:24:44

important. It's very nice approach. Okay now

1:24:46

we're going to read yours. You

1:24:48

guys can comment them anywhere you want

1:24:51

on Instagram on all the places. LinkedIn.

1:24:53

Get over there. .net. Dot is. YouTube.

1:24:55

We have YouTube up now and

1:24:57

you can comment your fucking hurries there.

1:25:00

So here are yours. You want me

1:25:02

to go first? Sure. Sure. Fucking

1:25:04

yay for fucking hooray. It's called. It's

1:25:06

from our email. Hi ladies, and everyone

1:25:09

is exactly right. Today I accepted

1:25:11

my dream job as an elementary school

1:25:13

librarian. Yes. Oh, I remember mine. So

1:25:15

important. I have worked so hard for

1:25:18

this, and I cannot wait to

1:25:20

help kids see themselves in the books

1:25:22

they read, especially now when reading and

1:25:24

books are under attack by our

1:25:26

government. SSD GM and always remember to

1:25:29

fight for libraries and for public education,

1:25:31

Manny, he him. Thank you, Manny.

1:25:33

Great job, Manny. You're so right. Now

1:25:36

that libraries and books are under attack

1:25:38

from our government is a true statement

1:25:40

being made on this podcast in

1:25:42

2025. Manny is sallying forth. Manny is

1:25:45

kicking us. Thank you. And thank you

1:25:47

to all librarians. Definitely. Okay, you

1:25:49

go. Okay, well, this one is a...

1:25:51

It says, my fucking hurry is fast

1:25:54

food chili, question mark, question mark.

1:25:56

This was sent into the, my favorite

1:25:58

murder Gmail. It says, yeah, it sure

1:26:00

is, after avoiding Wendy's chili, my entire

1:26:03

life due to the notion of

1:26:05

errant floating thumbs in it, I was

1:26:07

finally brave enough to order it after

1:26:09

listening to Karen's recent deep time.

1:26:11

I'm happy to report that the chili

1:26:14

is pretty damn decent. Wow. And honestly,

1:26:16

in this motherfucking upside down world,

1:26:18

having one more decent option for lunch

1:26:20

is in fact a fucking array. I

1:26:23

mean, right? And then it says, so

1:26:25

thanks Karen. I also told my

1:26:27

boyfriend he should start eating walnuts before

1:26:29

drinking his coffee because I heard on

1:26:32

a podcast that it's good for

1:26:34

your esophagus and heartburn. He looked at

1:26:36

me quizzically and said, but you only

1:26:38

listened to murder podcast. I replied,

1:26:40

yep, that's where I heard about it.

1:26:43

So I guess TBD on whether or

1:26:45

not he takes the advice. Thanks crew

1:26:47

for all you do, Lindsay. Oh,

1:26:49

Lindsay, hey. Lindsay's just turning it all

1:26:52

around. I love it. Chili. My last

1:26:54

one's from Instagram. My hashtag fucking

1:26:56

array is that on Sunday, I completed

1:26:58

MFM. That's my first marathon. Hey. It

1:27:01

was hashtag-fucking hard, but I finished

1:27:03

it in three hours, 48 minutes, and

1:27:05

raised 1.5K for a local cat rescue.

1:27:07

It's at pad, paws, animal rescue, who

1:27:10

specialize in senior, sick, and hard

1:27:12

to adopt cats. I also volunteer and

1:27:14

foster for them. They rock. I conquered

1:27:17

about a flu and a dog

1:27:19

attack during my training. Jesus. And I'm

1:27:21

pretty fucking pleased with myself. MFFM kept

1:27:23

me going through many long runs.

1:27:25

Love the pod. Now to ice my

1:27:28

old me. at and it's Sophia with

1:27:30

a ton of buses in the beginning

1:27:32

and a ton of days at

1:27:34

the end. Sophia! Yeah padpaws animal rescue

1:27:37

everyone go follow them. That's a great

1:27:39

one. Yeah. Mom Sophia is getting

1:27:41

it all done. Yeah. Well, same with

1:27:43

this person. This is also from the

1:27:46

email. And the subject line of

1:27:48

it is, want to be on stage

1:27:50

with Bernie Sanders? And then it says,

1:27:52

last week I got this text

1:27:54

from my friend and union president, and

1:27:57

then in parentheses it says, I'm her

1:27:59

VP, asking me if I want to

1:28:01

be on stage at the fighting

1:28:03

oligarchy tour stop in Folsom California the

1:28:06

next day. Wow. The answer was obviously

1:28:08

yes, and that's how I ended

1:28:10

up in the VIP section directly be.

1:28:12

AOC and Bernie representing my local and

1:28:15

state teachers union. The event was

1:28:17

huge. We could see the constant stream

1:28:19

of people coming in the whole time.

1:28:21

It was surreal and it filled me

1:28:24

with such hope in this very

1:28:26

dark time. My face made it on

1:28:28

national news today and then in parentheses

1:28:30

it says look for me in

1:28:32

the pink sunglasses. And then it says

1:28:35

it blows my mind that my co-workers

1:28:37

and I were part of history

1:28:39

that night Good will prevail if we

1:28:41

stand together when we fight we win

1:28:44

Rachel amazing hell. Yes Rachel great job

1:28:46

great work and thank you teachers

1:28:48

in the and teachers unions fighting for

1:28:51

education for their children, not just for

1:28:53

their children, for everyone's children, even

1:28:55

the people who are fighting against them.

1:28:57

Yep, all of those children still get

1:29:00

fought for because we got to

1:29:02

do this and stand up against straight

1:29:04

up fucking fascism in America in 2025.

1:29:06

Amen. And thank you guys for listening.

1:29:09

We appreciate you being here. Stang

1:29:11

strong. We're locking arms together, audio-wise, spiritually,

1:29:13

emotionally. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

1:29:15

Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a

1:29:17

cookie? This

1:29:22

has been an exactly right production. Our

1:29:24

senior producers are Alejandro Keck and Molly

1:29:27

Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This

1:29:29

episode was mixed by Liana Squelachi. Our

1:29:31

researchers are Mary McLachin and Ali Elkin.

1:29:34

Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder

1:29:36

at g-nail.com. Follow the show on Instagram

1:29:38

at My Favorite Murder. Listen to My

1:29:41

Favorite Murder on the I-Hart radio app,

1:29:43

Apple podcast, or wherever you get your

1:29:45

podcasts. And now you can watch us

1:29:48

on Exactly right on Exactly Right's YouTube

1:29:50

YouTube YouTube page. Amazon

1:29:58

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