0:02

I

0:10

lay the

0:18

beeping connectoure, I tell them beeping

0:21

to stop. There's no beeping, Georgia.

0:26

And we started and breakdown

0:29

and Georgia, here's beeping.

0:31

Do you hear that sound of a baby

0:33

crying? This is not an

0:35

ad for a

0:37

new beeper for a new brain. We're

0:39

bringing back beeper beepers.

0:42

Are you a doctor or a drug dealer? Or

0:44

do you play one on TV? Then you need a

0:46

peper?

0:47

Or are you having an affair and you need it?

0:50

Wait for your an affair person to contact you.

0:52

What was the affair?

0:53

What was the thing of like some kind of a four

0:55

to one one but for hookups?

0:57

No, yeah, it was like

0:59

I didn't I guess I didn't hook up when I

1:01

had a beeper?

1:02

Oh I did all of the sud when

1:04

I was an emergency room intern.

1:06

No, never, of

1:08

course not. You're

1:11

serious.

1:12

I'm super blackout drunk at a bar and then I hold up

1:14

my beeper.

1:14

Guys, I've got to go. My sugar daddy's.

1:17

Calling me one of my uh

1:19

hey, welcome of my favorite right, Welcome,

1:21

I've murdered. That's George art Star, that's

1:23

Karen Kilgara. We're here to read

1:26

to you. And tell to you true

1:28

crime stories from all around the

1:30

nation and world, and more, and

1:33

then some, and then more, and then

1:35

after that half a tea's been more.

1:38

It's the morning. We've never betarted

1:41

in the morning. This is so weird. I

1:43

had to stay at work late last night.

1:45

Everybody got to adjust to my needs,

1:47

so we were supposed to record last night.

1:49

I called and said, I'm still at work.

1:51

Then, Georgia, you've actually been into

1:53

this idea for I feel like you have been very

1:56

morning positive about right.

1:58

It just does fun and fresh and like different,

2:01

you know what I mean, Like recording in a different

2:03

place. It feels like a field trip without

2:06

going anywhere.

2:07

Yes, school is

2:09

new again for us. Yeah, and now I can

2:11

really learn.

2:11

And it lets me drink whiskey in the morning

2:14

finally, because I can't do this podcast without whiskey.

2:17

That's not true, that's not true. But let me just

2:19

I just need to put this out here.

2:21

If you or any of your friends are drinking whiskey

2:23

in the morning, that was the

2:26

end stage for me.

2:27

Right before I was hospitalized. I know you're

2:29

joking. What I

2:34

meant that I was legitimately

2:37

period in the clear.

2:39

Yeah, I always am like cannot

2:41

no if it's not on a weekend and it's

2:43

not brunch. Although this is like, well, what's

2:45

weird is that this is going to come out later today,

2:48

So everyone listening on Thursday, this

2:50

is this morning?

2:51

Are you fucking Beto?

2:53

Oh yeah, same day, yeah, same first

2:55

time, same day. This is the freshest recording.

2:57

We've not got your fault.

2:58

I was at a town on Tuesday and Monday,

3:00

so we couldn't record like we usually do.

3:02

Oh thank you, that's Georgia.

3:04

That was a lot to me.

3:06

I wouldn't put it on you at all, because, yeah,

3:09

that's very nice of you to mention.

3:12

I didn't even realize that, George's

3:15

how was that trip, by the way to tell the people

3:17

what you were doing?

3:18

I fucking had this crazy experience.

3:21

Oxygen uh had

3:24

they were gonna have us instead it was just me

3:27

available, and I was like fuck yeah, hell yeah,

3:30

Oxygen is trying a true crime network.

3:31

This is not a plug. They didn't pay me to do

3:33

this or anything like that. She's just trying to tell

3:35

her story. I really had an incredible time there.

3:38

So they have this like special called uh

3:41

the jury speaks the jury. Thank you,

3:43

You're welcome. Your stage mother really

3:46

early and I've only had a bullet

3:48

coffee.

3:49

You've only had two shots of whiskey. Yeah,

3:51

so far. So the jury speaks.

3:53

And so I did this panel for for Press

3:55

where I interviewed four of the jury members

3:58

who were on these like high profile cases where

4:00

they were really fucking controversial

4:03

and like kind of ruined these jurors

4:05

lives for a while because instead of blaming

4:08

the justice system that, let you know, George

4:10

ZIMMERMANO, they blamed the juris for

4:13

voting the way that they were told to

4:15

vote, which is if you have reasonable doubt, and then asked

4:17

the question like if you with everything you know now,

4:19

would you vote differently? And

4:21

these people were so they

4:23

were just normal people who were

4:25

very affected by these trials, by

4:28

what happened to them afterwards. How could you not

4:30

be This one woman who was on the George Zimmerman

4:32

trial was just such a She

4:34

just was so emotionally raw and wonderful,

4:37

and I really really

4:39

she really touched me. So it sounds

4:41

like it's gonna be a good show. I would love to watch that.

4:43

I watched it. It's I you know, you're

4:45

like, I'm so sick of the O. J. Simpson trial. I've

4:47

seen every fucking thing about it. Well, this

4:49

is from the jury's perspective.

4:51

It's all interest, which you've never seen anything of.

4:53

And they explain why they voted the way they voted,

4:56

which everyone's like, you fucking fuck

4:58

you. You know so, Michael Jackson.

4:59

K it's really cool.

5:02

I feel like people were.

5:03

Fucky in the nineties and now, especially

5:05

because of those two things that came out recently,

5:07

Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I get it. I'm

5:10

starting to get it as like a white

5:13

American, I'm starting to understand what

5:15

all the things I didn't know I never

5:17

opened my eyes to before were about.

5:19

Yeah, and how unfair it

5:21

is. Yeah, Yeah, it was really

5:23

interesting. So that's what I was.

5:25

That's great and it was fun, my

5:27

bet, Yeah, did you get your hair? Did?

5:28

I got my nails and toasted?

5:31

But like, what about were you in that makeup chair?

5:33

I'm saying, that's my favorite part of anything.

5:35

No, for this, it wasn't.

5:36

It wasn't recorded, unfortunately,

5:38

because I, for the first time in my life, headed

5:42

the panel.

5:43

It was like a live panel.

5:44

It was a panel four press,

5:47

so there was like fifty sixty people

5:49

in the room that were all press, and I

5:51

was like, so when you got sequestered

5:53

and asking and then that the person who made the

5:56

show is Nancy Glass.

5:58

Who remember was that Inside

6:01

Edition blonde woman Nancy

6:03

Glass. Yeah, and she's a fucking badass

6:05

and she was on the panel and she's just been she's

6:07

one Emmy's she's just an incredible broadcaster.

6:10

So it's so weird to be sitting there interviewing her,

6:12

and I'm like, you should be. She

6:15

was incredible and so she made it.

6:17

It's just it's great, that's so cool. Yeah, I had a

6:19

really good time.

6:19

Does that mean she picked you to be the person?

6:22

I don't know.

6:23

I don't think so. But she pretended to know who I am,

6:25

and I was honored.

6:27

I took a photo with her. It was just

6:29

really creating.

6:30

Yeah, she's just this long time true

6:32

crime investigative journalist, a journalist

6:35

host, and I was just I

6:37

was honored to be there. Awesome,

6:40

thank you, first class, first

6:42

class on the way there. Oh on my time,

6:44

I didn't, they didn't.

6:46

Yeah, I love it? How about you?

6:48

Who me? Oh, I'm just sitting

6:51

in a office for

6:53

eleven hours a day talking about

6:55

what fictional characters may or may

6:58

not do in their lives and why it

7:00

could be symbolic or any.

7:02

Meaningful in any way to other people.

7:03

And it's just conversation after

7:06

conversation, and by the time I leave, I

7:08

don't want to speak and look at anybody

7:10

else. I've eaten so

7:13

much Trader Joe's snack food. Yeah,

7:18

I have it really rough, but first class,

7:21

first class all the way.

7:22

Baby.

7:23

The one thing I did want to mention, and we've gotten tons

7:25

of tweets about, is the

7:28

fact that they id'd a

7:31

an unknown victim of John Wayne Gacy totally.

7:34

Cook County Sheriff just made

7:36

this announcement, and of course we got one thousand

7:38

tweets about it, which I love. The funniest

7:41

thing is now all the tweets are did you already get this?

7:43

Yeah?

7:43

Or I know you already saw this, but just in case,

7:46

it's just sweet.

7:47

Thank you mommy.

7:49

So just really quick if

7:51

you haven't read any of the articles, which you probably and.

7:53

They came out today, so I'm glad we're recording today.

7:55

Yeah.

7:57

So they said, so there's a I

8:00

unidentified victims and at the time when

8:03

they found these bodies, it was nineteen seventy

8:05

six.

8:06

Uh no, sorry, it was nineteen seventy.

8:08

Eight that they found the bodies I believe,

8:10

right, I don't have the seventy eight or seventy nine.

8:12

Yeah, but.

8:15

So eight were unidentified and they couldn't do anything

8:17

about it because they didn't they of course obviously

8:20

didn't have the forensics that we have today, and

8:23

they kept jawbone, I know, but

8:25

they so that if people came forward with dental

8:27

records, so creepy.

8:29

Yeah, So back.

8:30

Then, like it was, dental wasn't a

8:32

thing that it is today, which is like you take your kids

8:34

immediately, So not everyone

8:36

had dental records back then.

8:38

That's exactly right.

8:38

And that's so this identified victim,

8:41

Jimmy Hockinson, he was sixteen

8:43

years old when he was murdered by John Wayne Gacy.

8:46

Baby and his mother actually went to

8:48

Chicago in nineteen seventy nine to

8:51

try to find out if her missing son

8:53

was one of the victims, but because she didn't have

8:55

dental records, they couldn't tell her anything.

8:57

They they had no way of knowing anything. But

8:59

they've continued to

9:02

test.

9:02

These these the

9:05

you know remains, Yeah,

9:07

the remains that they have. And the

9:09

cool thing is, so it's thirty nine years

9:12

later, and Hawkinson's nephew sees

9:14

that they're still testing remains, so

9:16

he encourages his I

9:19

believe it was his aunt

9:21

and his father to go give

9:24

the DNA so they could test it.

9:26

And immediately fucking murdering of if he's

9:28

just like, I'm going to track my uncle

9:30

down.

9:30

Wouldn't you be so fascinated if you had a missing

9:33

uncle who suspect was suspected to

9:35

have been at sixteen?

9:36

Yeah, you and I would be.

9:38

I think most people listening would be like, I'm

9:40

going to track this down, but some people would be like this is

9:42

too hard for my family that they don't want to talk

9:44

about it.

9:45

Yeah, it's And it's also when it's just a

9:47

missing child, that's just like that's

9:50

I mean, it's so sad.

9:52

They just no answer. You almost

9:54

do.

9:55

You want an answer, because then it's like

9:57

it's it's a period on this

10:00

sentence that like maybe he'll walk through the door

10:02

someday or maybe you know, Yeah,

10:04

I'm really wanting to know that it's over and

10:06

that this monster John Wayne Gacy is

10:09

the reason. And like his mom

10:11

let him move to Chicago to like start

10:13

a new life. And then they said right

10:16

that he called her on the August

10:18

fifth.

10:18

I just read it this morning.

10:19

Yeah, when he got there, when he got

10:21

there, and they think maybe the same day he got

10:24

capturing, right.

10:25

Well, that was all I read was that was the last she

10:27

ever heard of him, So it was like very soon after.

10:30

I love the way that he really underlined the fact

10:32

that his family loved him, his family

10:34

had been searching for him. This was not you

10:37

know, it's that thing they always do, not

10:40

always do, but sometimes do the story with victims,

10:42

which is the hitch you know, the hitchhiker

10:45

who didn't care about their life, the runaway

10:48

who it doesn't matter what happened

10:50

to them anyway, the sex worker who I mean, who

10:52

really cares is just another victim where it's like he

10:54

really was underlining this is a family who missed

10:57

their child, their sixteen year old

10:59

boy for thirty nine

11:01

years.

11:01

Yeah.

11:01

I hope I didn't sound like when I said that they

11:03

didn't want to know that. I don't know if that's true

11:06

or not, but.

11:07

No, you're just saying that's a possibility

11:09

some people. Probably.

11:10

Then the grief then you have to like,

11:13

then that's a whole new grieving problem.

11:14

And you've learned how to compartmentalize this anyways,

11:17

I don't know who knows. I've never lost someone

11:19

like that, so yeah, who knows. I'm just speculating.

11:22

Yeah, that's how this show is.

11:23

This podcast is speculation.

11:25

It's speculation.

11:27

I like to lie out.

11:29

What was the quote or the like saying you

11:31

call it or someone called it?

11:34

But the vague postulating, that's

11:36

vague postulated something like serious vague

11:38

postulating.

11:39

Yeah that's what I mean.

11:40

Yeah, we're just talking about your vague postulating

11:43

something. Well that's fucked up, and

11:45

I'm glad. And then the creepiest part to me was that

11:47

they could tell when

11:50

it happened based on this like stacking

11:53

of the body.

11:54

Oh right, like what number victim

11:56

he was?

11:56

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

11:57

Could you hold on one second,

12:00

either trying to break in or clean?

12:02

Probably clean? But why would they

12:04

or the kittens doing something which I don't think

12:06

she is. It

12:10

sounds like cleaning. Why I don't think

12:12

they do that ever, No,

12:16

look at that disgust. Why would you?

12:18

But how do you get up there? Maybe maybe

12:21

there's something going up the side of the building.

12:22

All right, we'll keep this in because someone's

12:24

trying to break into my fucking house right now. Okay,

12:28

they left, they gave up, and

12:31

it was a humming bird crashed

12:34

into the window. Then heavy birds

12:36

trying to kill me.

12:37

That's where my brain goes to immediately.

12:38

Uh yeah, So they stacked the bodies and

12:41

that's he stacked them by like when he

12:43

got them, you just like buried them on top of each other

12:45

so they could be like he died at this time

12:48

or this year, because we know the body

12:50

underneath him went away like

12:52

to disappeared on this day and the one on top of

12:54

him disappeared on this day.

12:55

So yeah, they can.

12:57

It's not creepy, but it's the visual

12:59

that makes me so sad

13:01

for these kids.

13:02

The visual of that is what sparked,

13:05

right, my, what

13:07

the hell is going on in this actual world?

13:09

That's exactly it. Yeah, with the bearing

13:11

of their bodies. It was the dia drawing

13:14

a.

13:14

Diagram of where the bodies were buried in

13:16

the house. And to me, to my

13:19

child's mind, I thought he'd buried them in

13:21

the wall.

13:21

Yes, it didn't make sense to me that it was underneath.

13:24

So I was just like because I knew

13:26

my parents were telling me so yeah, because my parents

13:28

would always be like.

13:28

We'll tell you later. We'll tell you when your.

13:30

Mother, which nothing makes you want to know more? I

13:32

mean, can they tell you that for real? And

13:34

so that was one of the ones.

13:36

Anyway, it's it makes

13:38

me happy that they're still working the

13:40

way they are, Yeah,

13:42

for this that there's something about that

13:44

that's very.

13:47

Heartening to me. Can we go back

13:49

to you never gave me an answer?

13:52

What time drinking whiskey means

13:54

you're about to carron out and

13:57

have to go to the Hospital's.

13:59

Not call it, sorry, Stephen,

14:02

take that out. No, you don't have to come. You

14:05

know what it is. It's not time of day. It's that

14:07

you think you need it why and

14:09

and you think it's okay when it's.

14:11

Not a choice, because it moves

14:13

to a point where it's not a choice anymore,

14:15

especially when you're at that point. I was only drinking

14:18

whiskey only so my friends

14:20

would we'd meet at a bar. People would get around

14:22

of beers. I would have a shot

14:24

of Jamison's. I would be done

14:26

before everybody. Of course mine

14:28

was smaller, and then I would keep

14:30

on having shots of whiskey until I was trying

14:32

to kick the bouncer and the shins for no reason,

14:36

Party Central Party, Karen

14:38

party times. Anyways,

14:40

all right, right

14:44

around eleven fifteen if at

14:46

that point, I remember taking a bottle of Jameson's

14:49

off the top.

14:50

Of my refrigerator the second

14:52

I woke up in.

14:53

The morning, like it was coffee, and as I drank

14:55

it, like just took a swig of it, thinking this.

14:57

Is very bad.

14:58

Oh you knew then, yeah,

15:00

but you were like, well, i'll stop soon, I'll stop

15:03

doing this, but today is not that.

15:04

No.

15:04

I knew, no, you know what it was.

15:06

I knew it was bad and I knew I should stop, but

15:08

I also knew I could not stop.

15:10

I knew how scary it was horrible.

15:12

I'm sorry.

15:14

I thank you congratulations because

15:16

you fucking did it, and you did it well and

15:18

you did it.

15:19

You did I'm so impressed that you did that.

15:21

Thank you.

15:21

As someone who drinks,

15:24

I mean, look, I highly recommend seizures.

15:26

They're very they are upsetting,

15:28

they're mysterious.

15:29

I tried one at like twelve. I gave

15:31

you a shot at twelve. Was it for me?

15:34

No?

15:34

I mean they're not for everybody. Yeah, never really had

15:36

a seizure at twelve. For what I

15:39

know, my brother I think so. My brother and I have.

15:41

Both had one seizure like around that age

15:43

and then never again.

15:45

It might have been your brain growth

15:47

spurt, because kids have

15:49

them when they're seven. They have

15:51

them when they're babies, if they have fevers. Sometimes

15:54

yeah, sometimes when you're seven, sometimes when you're

15:56

fourteen. Every seven years when your brain grows and

15:58

like hormone release.

16:00

And I had been working, like playing soccer all

16:02

day, probably was to hydrate it and I

16:04

had it And this isn't interesting. I had it in

16:06

my sleep, which isn't supposed to actually be a seizure.

16:09

No, that's when I have all mine. Oh right, that's

16:11

right, they are caezure. Did I tell you I was sharing?

16:13

This is how young I was sharing a bunk bed with my sister.

16:16

I started shaking. Thank god we shared a

16:18

run of the time. She ran into my mom's trim and said

16:20

we were really into the Simpsons at the time, and she

16:22

said, Mom, George is having a cow. I

16:28

was probably younger. I was probably like what.

16:30

Yeah, oh Jesus, and I missed my

16:32

whole ride in the ambulance. I'm so pupped

16:34

about that because you're out. Yeah, it's not that great.

16:36

It's kind of weird.

16:37

Okay, it's not like fun like

16:41

you think fun as

16:43

you think. Stephen Ray Morris keeps

16:46

giving us presents. We

16:49

know we get him nothing.

16:51

You just pulled that out of the end vope a little bit in nice

16:53

VHS.

16:54

You see VHS this must have cost

16:56

Stephen is an invoice.

16:59

Here you go, it's your

17:01

story. Here you go.

17:03

Appreciate everyone that those in the dark

17:05

Joseph Wombaugh's echoes in the darkness,

17:07

everybody.

17:08

This is the story fucking video cassette

17:10

he tracked down.

17:11

It's Peter Coyote, Robert Logis

17:13

doctor Channing telling the

17:15

story of William Bradfield.

17:18

Patches called him doctor,

17:21

Principal Smith, principal,

17:24

what was his name?

17:26

Just on principal, the principal and

17:28

then Patches missing children

17:30

with the fucking little statue

17:32

in the forest, Steve, oh guy.

17:35

A plus, it's such a cool VHS

17:38

like it.

17:39

It's it's such a VHS that I remember

17:41

from my childhood.

17:42

I mean, it's in perfect condition.

17:43

Somebody really held onto that type.

17:45

Somebody really, somebody dusted their VHS

17:48

shelf every day.

17:49

What makes me sound is like what happened to them that

17:51

they we were able to get this. If they saved it that

17:53

long, either they died and their parents

17:56

or their ki siblings were like, sell

17:58

it on eBay, sell all of dad's va chesses.

18:00

Oh can I go fucking dark all the time? I

18:03

ever go passe because now let's do the therapy.

18:05

Now, they're four other choices holding

18:09

our hand up with five fingers.

18:12

Every time you think of something that's upsetting that you

18:14

think is the truth, the

18:17

somebody's something's working on the side of your

18:19

house. Okay, that sounded

18:21

like a weird fart, didn't I

18:24

know? It sounded like a noise

18:27

maker? Okay,

18:29

so you hold up. Okay everyone, this is

18:31

the rule of six.

18:32

Rule of five. Okay, no, the rule of six.

18:34

Sorry, okay. So number one is the negative

18:36

thought. So you're like, someone

18:38

died, and that's why we have someone died. It's the only reason

18:40

we have a view.

18:41

Yeah, which I kind of enjoy posture living

18:43

well worst case you always explore the worst

18:45

case. So then the five is like, maybe

18:48

they had a wonderful life with wonderful family.

18:51

Maybe they're not.

18:51

Actually dead, and maybe they were

18:53

happy to let this move on to someone else. Stephen

18:56

tell us the background of you buying this. Did someone

18:58

send it to you or was like, well.

19:00

No, I just found it on eBay, But the the person

19:04

sent a letter.

19:04

Oh my good hand, So there's still alive.

19:07

And it says, dear customer, please know I upgraded

19:10

in bold at my cost. Your VHS ordered

19:12

a first class mail because

19:14

I consider you a first class customer.

19:17

Oh congratulations, media mail

19:19

I consider too slow. I also mailed

19:21

it in a padded mailer with free delivery confirmation.

19:23

I hope you have earned I hope I've earned

19:25

your five star feedback you have? And

19:28

yes, if not, please message me on how to improve.

19:30

Thanking you Karen.

19:32

With an I yes, Karen,

19:34

Karen, great job, Karen.

19:36

I'm speaking of great job. And this

19:38

isn't a present that's not from me. And

19:40

then I want to read the letter because it is

19:42

this from a murdering Now the letter made me cry.

19:45

Nice, but it's really self serving because it's

19:47

because of something I said on the course.

19:49

Sure is that?

19:50

Okay? I feel like that's

19:52

this is podcast okay.

19:54

So da da da da, Karen, George Stevens sisters.

19:57

I'm a huge fan sending you a

19:59

thing, but I I never expected to, but I wanted

20:01

to share with you a very personal way in which your

20:03

approach to the podcast inspired and motivated

20:05

me.

20:05

Can I just say one thing, what if you're

20:07

going to read a letter that's like slightly self congratulator,

20:10

you can't skip through the beginning of their bark.

20:13

But it's long, dada dah

20:15

you love me? No, okay,

20:18

well I'll read it.

20:19

No no, no, no, okay, well I was gonna read.

20:20

The rest, so it does look long.

20:22

Actually.

20:23

In an early episode, Georgia was making

20:25

a T shirt corner update. Karen mentioned how

20:28

impressed she was see this is so dick by

20:31

George's tenacity and follow through and actually

20:33

making the shirts a reality. And because remember I

20:35

was like, you don't have to be perfect, just fucking do things,

20:37

yes, which is my motto, and that's

20:40

right. Georgia went to express

20:42

how she just doesn't let the fear of messing up or not being

20:44

perfect told her back.

20:45

She continued to.

20:46

Explain the theory that people who make a quality

20:48

work often don't even start, much less finish

20:50

making things because they're so hung up on being on perfection.

20:52

If you're failing, it was a light

20:54

bulb moment.

20:55

This described me.

20:56

I went to school for design currently work in the

20:58

design industry, yet have been terrified of creating

21:00

personal passion projects for fear that they wouldn't

21:02

turn out quote perfect. Gumption and willingness

21:05

to start t shirts on this podcast despite

21:07

things not always being perfect, no shit, I

21:09

was so encouraging to me with

21:12

the mindset of fuck perfection.

21:13

I successfully created a little bit of

21:15

jewelry for.

21:16

You guys and all the other Murderinos out there who

21:19

want one. Inside the tiny envelopes,

21:21

I'm passing them to you and Steven, you get one

21:23

too, even though it's weird. You

21:26

will find fourteen, a solid fourteen

21:28

caret gold Murderino script necklaces.

21:31

My first four into making jewelry. I

21:33

drew the script, figured out how to three D print

21:35

said script for a mold and a casting

21:37

place, made prototypes, then lovingly

21:40

put each one together by hand. They are all

21:42

designed and made in New York City. You guys

21:44

get the first three because you inspired the whole

21:46

thing, and I want to say thank you. I have last day or something.

21:48

I'm really proud I made them. Thank you all for pursuing

21:51

what you love and for being authentic and hilarious. Ty and my sisters

21:53

and I wish you all the best happiness and success,

21:56

Stephanie of the Sisters Gambles and Sisters.

21:58

You can get it at the Sisters

22:00

Gamble g A M B L e PS.

22:03

Steven, I don't know if you're into necklaces,

22:05

but I know you could rocket alongside

22:07

the stash.

22:08

Hell yeah yeah, hell yeah, Stephen,

22:10

you you will look so nineteen seventy five.

22:12

Oh because it's gold. I mean, I have chest

22:16

hair, live, love, laugh, listen.

22:18

Shave your chest hair into a mustache.

22:21

Yeah, do it beautiful.

22:23

That's really lovely.

22:24

And that makes me really happy because that's so true.

22:26

Yeah, just fucking do what you want to do.

22:29

You'll improve later.

22:30

It made me really, it made me really tear up and

22:33

proud of us. Yeah, just because I

22:35

have us.

22:35

We we uh

22:38

we said fuck it, yeah did it.

22:40

It's funny those ideas that seemed kind

22:42

of simple for me. They're like just Ted Talks

22:44

that I've watched.

22:45

It's like, if you go onto the.

22:46

Brene Brown Vulnerability Ted Talk,

22:48

watch that, and then there's gonna be a bunch of other ones

22:50

that are like perfection ruining shit,

22:53

ruining creativity, this that and the

22:55

other thing. You can like there's

22:57

a whole philosophy of life that you can discover

23:00

love that.

23:00

Yeah, well that made me so thank you,

23:02

Stephanie.

23:03

Thanks we got

23:05

to Let's see my aunt turned, actually

23:08

turned Richard Speck into the police. Maybe we can

23:10

save these for hometowns I

23:12

worked with Tricia Melee. Oh

23:14

wait, that person's aunt turned.

23:18

It's the girl that.

23:19

Went to high school with him, that saw him in the

23:22

Town and Country Center.

23:24

That weird fucking moll Sacramento.

23:26

Richard Speck was the one who killed all the nurses

23:28

in the Oh shit, I'm thinking Richard

23:30

Chase.

23:30

Oh is that right? Richard Chase was the

23:33

creepy Sacramento Chase was the Sacramento the

23:35

vampire. And you're that's Richard'speck.

23:37

Yeah we should.

23:38

This is Georgia, Karen, Stephen, Mimi, and Elvis,

23:41

but we should also give a shout out to the

23:43

person who made you that cross stitch of

23:46

the dogs.

23:47

Oh that's right.

23:49

And I want to say right now that Elvis is

23:51

at the doctor's because we

23:53

have a new kitten named Dottie

23:55

and she got Elvia sick. And I

23:57

love this new kitten very much, but if she kills I'm

24:00

going to fucking.

24:01

Lose my hed.

24:01

How old is Elvis, Georgia. He's about

24:03

to be thirteen, He's gonna

24:06

be Okay, Okay.

24:07

I hope my subject line grabbed

24:09

your attention. You guys are the best and make my hour

24:12

long Chicago commute so much more bearable. I've

24:14

gotten countless friends and family members hooked

24:16

into listening by telling them the Mary Vincent

24:18

and Sarah Brady stories. But anyway, onto

24:20

my aunt story.

24:21

My aunt is Kathy O'Connor and she was a nurse

24:24

at Cook County Hospital in nineteen sixty six.

24:26

She always talked about this case.

24:27

When I was younger, but I never realized how much of a connection

24:30

she actually had. I started reading the

24:32

book The Crime of the Century, which is about

24:34

the Richard Speck murders. And he killed

24:36

what a bunch of nurses in that nurse He went

24:38

into the nurses like dorm

24:40

and yeah, and one woman survived by hiding.

24:43

And in the chapter where they talk about him trying to kill

24:45

himself and then getting admitted to the hospital, I

24:47

see my aunt's name. Once I saw her

24:50

name, I immediately went to talk to her and she told me the

24:52

real scoop. She was the nurse that treated

24:54

him when he came to the er that night. In

24:56

every report you're going to see, it says that Lee Roy

24:58

Smith was the one who saw his teme to and alerted

25:00

the police. But after talking with my aunt this week,

25:03

it was actually her that notified that

25:05

noticed the tattoo on is just from a picture in the newspaper.

25:08

She then told Leroy and he alerted

25:10

the police.

25:11

Oh man, yep.

25:13

And since this was nineteen sixty

25:15

six and my aunt is a woman, she didn't get

25:17

any of the credit down with the patriarchy,

25:19

am I right.

25:21

Now? You guys know the real story.

25:23

All in all, it's fine because Speck was captured and

25:25

was sentenced to life in prison, but it's still a pretty

25:27

crazy story and connection. Thank you guys for

25:29

this amazing podcast. It's honestly

25:31

made me more just. I'm just like congratulating

25:34

myself this whole time. It's honestly made me

25:36

more aware as a person when I'm out alone. Next time you guys

25:38

are in Chicago, hit me up and we can do a ghost tour,

25:40

or you can talk to my badass aunt. Much love, say

25:42

sexy, don't get murdered, Mary Kay. Everyone in Chicago

25:45

wants to give us a ghost tour.

25:46

I love it. It must be a thing. Well because

25:48

they have H's holmes.

25:49

They have so many mobs, like the Mob's

25:52

all that out there and stuff.

25:53

Okay, well listen, we're going to read some others

25:55

that we got. That's

25:57

the Hometown Murder episodes or the mini

26:00

it's basically are for those of you don't listen. So yeah,

26:02

clearly, yeah, we have to do. We have so

26:04

much ketchup email. But I feel like we

26:06

don't have time. Yeah, because we.

26:09

We Also I think maybe we should

26:11

do We should do it next week too. We have to talk

26:13

about the R Kelly sex cults pecatively.

26:16

It's crazy because I read the buzz

26:18

the BuzzFeed arcult this morning. It's

26:21

so much, there's so much detail, Like

26:23

it'll take us. Let's talk about it next week.

26:25

Okay. I have like a list of things I've been meaning

26:27

to talk about.

26:28

But that one is

26:30

especially interesting because what really freaked

26:32

me out is R.

26:33

Kelly is touring.

26:36

He is even though he was so

26:38

he was acquitted for fourteen

26:40

counts of child porn.

26:41

He married when

26:43

she was fourteen and he was like twenty

26:46

something thirty.

26:47

And then there was a song

26:49

called age is just a number, yeah, which is

26:51

like, no, that's not true. But also

26:53

when you start reading these accounts and the

26:56

way he's keeping and controlling

26:58

these women, it's

27:00

unbelievable. And he's just and he's

27:02

like on fallon and he's like, you know, why

27:05

are they being in someone's funny video or whatever?

27:07

But I'm still okay with these people.

27:09

Chris Brown, I want to I know it's dated, but I

27:11

want to call that motherfucker out. Why does he still have

27:13

a career after beating the shit at a riant Rihanna.

27:15

It's because when you make people

27:17

money, the people who get paid because

27:20

of being making that money figure

27:22

out a way to make it okay. And that's what

27:24

so much of show business is. And

27:27

because people haven't had a voice before, and what

27:29

a lot of Like there was a reporter at a really tragic

27:33

quote that was like, this story proves that

27:35

young black women do not matter to people

27:37

in this country, which

27:39

is really true. And it's a thing that you know, we come

27:41

up against all the time when you're in talking about

27:44

true crime. This issue

27:46

of the race

27:48

of the victim and how that story gets treated

27:51

is a huge problem. And we're

27:53

learning as we go, but it is

27:56

it's nothing that we you know, like

27:58

we're just doing our best, but it is a

28:00

it's a problem on this level.

28:02

It's a problem obviously in the regular

28:04

media.

28:05

It's how we the story gets presented, where

28:07

you go, well, this thing happened, but it's okay,

28:09

and the room goes great, it's okay.

28:11

Yeah, you don't.

28:11

You don't question your immediate thinking, your

28:14

immediate snap judgment, which

28:16

I think is what we need to start paying attention

28:18

to, Like what's my snap judgment and then questioning

28:20

that.

28:21

Yes, because that's my internal bias.

28:23

Yeah, that's why you're not ignorant, is

28:25

you think for yourself and.

28:29

Try to keep on thinking and not shut

28:31

down, not fight, not.

28:32

Fucking absorb or what is it called

28:35

take on whatever is being fucking screamed at

28:37

you.

28:37

Yeah, just like swallow whatever the story on

28:39

CNN is or whatever, but like actually

28:42

try to whatever.

28:43

We'reld doing our best. Should

28:46

we get to the murder?

28:47

Yeah?

28:47

I think we should.

28:48

Okay, there's

28:51

now a Twitter account that

28:53

keeps track of who went first. I swear

28:55

to god it the first time I saw it. Maybe that did

28:57

you make it?

28:58

Stephen?

28:58

No, seems

29:00

like I'm busy with so much of your other bullshit

29:03

that you guys make me do.

29:04

And I did use it to look up Oh

29:07

my god.

29:08

Nice, Well we're hiring them instead of you.

29:10

Now, oh that's cruel. Who

29:12

is it me?

29:13

Yes?

29:14

Okay, I go first, So

29:16

as we all know, when I'm working and I'm in

29:18

the mix and in the mix and

29:21

I have don't have a ton of time to do

29:23

my homework, what do I do?

29:25

I like to retell you my favorite I Survived

29:27

episode. That's great, Okay,

29:29

good, thank god?

29:31

No, can we stop for a minute, Karen, I'm

29:34

gonna need you go outside, take

29:37

notes.

29:38

See it.

29:40

Here's what's amazing to me.

29:41

So this one I remembered and we've actually talked

29:43

about it very lightly before, but

29:47

it's one of my favorites. And

29:50

when I went to rewatch it so I could just base,

29:52

I'm all the information is from this

29:54

this woman who's it's her story. I'm

29:57

taking it directly from the I Survived episode.

29:59

This is basical like if you're driving, I'm

30:02

telling you when I survived, so you don't have to watch it

30:04

because it's exactly what I'm what. Everything I'm

30:06

talking about I got from the show. I tried to watch

30:08

it actually recently, and it's hard.

30:10

Yeah, it's hard, and it's

30:13

fucked up. Yeah.

30:14

Yeah, so I haven't watched a lot of

30:16

these times.

30:17

What I love about it is it electrifies

30:20

me with people sitting there telling this

30:23

thing that we only talk

30:25

about third fifth hands, you

30:27

know, so far away, so distant.

30:29

Because experience.

30:30

They we don't have the explanation of the victim

30:32

because they're dead in most cases.

30:34

Yeah, and these are people who got through

30:36

it and turned around and were

30:38

like, this happened to me.

30:39

It's not my fault. I got through it.

30:42

I'm not you know, I'm like, here's what I did

30:44

after and it's amazing.

30:46

And they're eighty percent women, it's

30:49

and the women who are on it, I would say

30:51

eighty percent were raped in some way

30:54

and left for dead in some way. And

30:56

then there's just some man who was like, well I took

30:58

my tractor out.

30:59

Well there was the one I watched, the only episode

31:01

I watched.

31:02

There was a guy who was in

31:04

Haiti after yes, and

31:07

there was an earthquake and he was trapped

31:10

in the hotel elevator that fell

31:12

upon him for like eighty something hours.

31:15

Yeah, and it was incredible.

31:16

Yeah, but otherwise, you know, he was there

31:18

to fucking help people, So it's not like he was like I hiked

31:21

into the forest.

31:21

And look, they're stories

31:24

are important too, but it's it's

31:26

interesting to watch if you're interested,

31:28

watch it because you'll see the difference of somebody

31:31

that's like, he held a knife to my throat.

31:33

It's like, they should make two shows and one

31:35

of them is these stories of getting

31:37

lost in you know, be on your boat or

31:39

whatever and earthquakes, and the other should be it's

31:42

like kind of paying tribute to

31:44

women who have been men who have been attacked

31:47

and right, yeah, okay, well,

31:49

I mean they can do what they want. Yeah, as

31:51

long as they keep doing it. So I have raised

31:53

things to rely upon, not.

31:55

To talk down, like yeah,

31:57

look, hey listen.

31:59

Okay, So this is what's amazing

32:01

about this is it's season two.

32:03

Episode ten of I Survived.

32:07

It's the same episode as

32:09

our friend Sarah Brady, who was pregnant

32:11

nine most pregnant, who got attacked by the fake

32:13

pregnant girls.

32:14

This was like the vast episode you've ever seen.

32:16

The best episode, my favorite my

32:18

favorite girl. Well, this woman is on the

32:20

same episode as her. That's insane. I

32:22

was thrilled. It was like a star siding

32:25

for me. Okay, so this

32:27

is this is Ellen

32:29

Halbert's story.

32:30

Okay, okay.

32:32

This takes place outside of Austin, Texas,

32:35

in an affluent area,

32:37

I guess in the Hills in nineteen eighty

32:39

six September of nineteen eighty

32:41

six. So Ellen Halbert

32:44

is in her forties, She's a wife and mother. She's

32:47

having a run of the mill morning. She's

32:50

reading the paper, She's drinking her coffee

32:52

in peace and quiet.

32:53

Her husband is.

32:54

Out for the day golfing, and her son

32:56

is at school all day.

33:00

Oh you know. She eventually

33:02

decides to go upstairs and.

33:03

Take a shower to get ready for her day.

33:07

She goes, she takes a shower, and

33:09

when she gets out of the shower, she grabs

33:11

a towel wraps it around her. She's

33:14

walking over to the closet to

33:16

get a robe when she notices

33:18

something in the corner.

33:19

Oh no, no, no.

33:20

And what's in the corner is

33:22

a five foot eleven man standing

33:27

holding, she says, the

33:29

largest knife she's ever seen up

33:31

above his head, dressed like a ninja.

33:35

Looking you fucking

33:38

like you'd be like this, My brain isn't working,

33:40

she said. She laughed out loud because

33:43

she couldn't figure out it.

33:44

She said she thought it was a joke. Couldn't

33:46

figure out what was happening. I

33:48

have chills right now.

33:51

Yes, it's like seeing

33:53

a ghost. Yes, but

33:56

like and also it's that thing where you know, sometimes

33:58

I get I have like those weird floaters

34:00

in my eyes where everyone's like, is that a cat? You're

34:06

having a seizure, Karen, cat

34:08

seizure, which is like some weird thing passes

34:10

in your eyeline around.

34:11

Yeah, definitely.

34:12

You don't turn your head and expect to see

34:15

a huge cat standing there.

34:17

Or what I mean.

34:18

But that's the little body. Yeah, you expect to see

34:20

like, oh, weird I might have. She didn't expect anything.

34:23

She didn't even see anything out of the corner eyes.

34:24

She's just getting out of the shower, regular

34:27

day.

34:28

Okay, horrifying. Every one is gasping

34:31

in their cars right now.

34:33

Also, his in this ninja

34:35

outfit, if you're not familiar, every

34:39

part of his body was covered. It was black pants,

34:41

black shirt, head

34:44

wrap, so that only his eyes

34:46

are exposed.

34:47

It's like a karate uniform plus

34:49

ahead.

34:50

It's karate plus right, he's

34:52

also wearing gloves, so it's

34:55

just eyes and a knife basically

34:57

in the.

34:58

Corner of her bathroom.

35:00

Okay, he screams,

35:02

get on the floor and

35:04

comes at her, and they start to as

35:07

she says in the episode tussle, which

35:09

is the cutest and also reminds me of

35:12

the movie out of Sight with j

35:14

Low and George Club. That's scene in the bathroom

35:18

those guys. Anyhow,

35:22

uh So he pushes her into the

35:24

bedroom and he back hands her

35:26

and knocks her onto the ground. She

35:29

gets up, he does it again. She

35:31

gets up again and sits on the edge of the bed

35:33

and because she's she says, she goes she's basically

35:36

naked except this towel. She pulls her

35:38

knees up to

35:40

her chest to like try to get covered

35:43

in as small as she can, and he walks

35:45

over and drags the knife

35:47

across her feet and he says, I

35:49

just want you to know that my knives are much

35:51

sharper than yours.

35:54

Oh my god, did he

35:56

cut her feet or just kind of was like threatening

35:58

her?

35:58

It says, she said, so

36:01

I would I think she'd say.

36:02

Pat Yeah, yeah, you're right. He

36:06

tells her to.

36:06

Look down and close her eyes and not to

36:08

look at him, and.

36:09

Then she does it.

36:10

He takes his ninja mask off

36:13

his face and wraps it around her head as a

36:15

blindfold.

36:18

And then he says, it's a shame you can't see me.

36:20

I'm half black and half white, and I'm a

36:22

very handsome man. What

36:26

a weird power move. Yeah,

36:28

for sure. He

36:31

starts asking her how much money she has. She

36:33

offers to drive him to the bank. She says, she'll

36:35

give you. She'll give him everything she has

36:37

in the bank. You know she's bargaining

36:40

obviously. She says, let me write you a check.

36:42

I'll give you everything I have. He

36:45

says to her, you're gonna have a bad accident, lady,

36:48

Oh thank god. Yeah. He holds

36:50

the knife to her throat. He binds her ankles

36:53

and her hands behind her back.

36:55

And I just also say that if someone either

36:58

lets you see them when they're attacking

37:00

you, or says to you what they look like, then

37:04

I would be like, oh shit, I'm not getting

37:06

away from this to identify him.

37:07

That's right, Yeah, you know, yeah,

37:10

yeah, I think that's very realistic. Fear. So

37:14

he starts to explain to her

37:17

what his deal is and basically

37:19

says that he's been hiding in her attic

37:21

for two days, so he knows that

37:23

the husband is golfing all day nice, and

37:25

he knows that the sun is gone all day.

37:28

He knows no one's coming for her.

37:30

He knows he's not going to get interrupted, and

37:33

then he says, I'm going to rape you. She

37:36

begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He

37:38

says it doesn't matter what

37:41

he does to her because no one's ever going to catch him.

37:45

So he says, get back on the bed, and

37:47

then he rapes her. And when he's done, he goes

37:49

and takes a shower, and he puts

37:51

his ninja suit back on.

37:54

So she now is.

37:56

So scared that he's going to kill her, she doesn't try

37:58

to move, she doesn't try to escape. He cuts

38:00

her hands apart. He pulls off the blindfold.

38:03

He shows her a check that he's taken out

38:05

of her purse that he's written out

38:07

to the amount of six hundred dollars,

38:10

and then he tells her to write his name

38:12

on the check, Troy Eugene Wiggley.

38:15

He gave her whole name,

38:17

full name to write on the check. What

38:20

the fuck? So she writes it.

38:22

Then he says to lay on the floor in the bathroom

38:25

in the fetal position, and she

38:27

does it, and she says, she feels

38:29

the right side of her head explode. And what's

38:32

happened is he's hit her in the head with a hammer.

38:35

Oh no, hammer is always my

38:37

nightmare. It's so gross.

38:39

Oh my god, her she feels her head

38:41

explode. Yeah, that's so descriptive.

38:44

And she doesn't know what's going on obviously.

38:46

Like that's the thing on that show that freaks me out

38:49

all the time. People get shot in

38:51

the head and they're sitting there telling their story

38:53

completely regular, like it

38:56

was you or I and they've been shot

38:58

in the head, and when they just it's

39:00

that thing where that because you don't know what happened,

39:02

right, It's like, all of a sudden, there was a

39:04

weird sound in my ear, like

39:07

the way the personal.

39:08

Experience, that's why I'm obsessed with that show. Yeah, the

39:11

personal experience of it. I don't think

39:13

I really understand.

39:14

And that's probably what the show is too, is like I don't comprehend

39:17

being blindfolded and how specifically

39:20

scary that must be. Like I don't think about

39:22

that part, you know, where it's like you actually

39:25

are not aware of anything in your life

39:27

going on, and all you have are your

39:29

thoughts, right, you experience

39:32

it. I don't think about that, you know, like, yeah,

39:35

that sounds I need

39:37

to put myself in that position and

39:39

think about it.

39:41

Or you don't have to. Yeah, that's true, you don't have to,

39:43

Okay, I mean you

39:45

don't know.

39:45

Okay, all right, I feel so obligated to

39:47

put myself

39:49

in these victims shoes, so I can.

39:52

Well that's good.

39:53

I mean it's about empathy, yeah,

39:56

but it just to me. It's also just

39:58

medically fascinating. You

40:00

would think if somebody got hit, if you got hit

40:03

in the head of the hammer intentionally, you're

40:05

not gonna survive that. And people do

40:08

people survive.

40:09

All kinds of shit. Yeah, fucking crazy. Okay.

40:11

So then he stabs her in the

40:13

left breast.

40:14

Oh no, So.

40:16

Then he hits her in the head again, stabs her twice

40:18

in the back of the neck. It's gonna get

40:20

worse, okay, Uh, don't

40:23

worry. It gets worse worse. Then

40:26

he tries to I'll wait till you stop

40:29

sipping coffee.

40:29

Because I'm gonna spit everywhere. He tries

40:32

to.

40:32

Stab her in the skull, but the

40:34

knife won't go in. I can't, so

40:36

he hammers the knife into her.

40:38

Oh all right.

40:40

I can't do this. It's I also

40:42

thinks that Vince is in the other room listening

40:45

to this song.

40:46

He's horrified. Vibe.

40:47

There's no way he doesn't have the earbuds in. That

40:50

doesn't like true cross truth. You're right,

40:52

he's got those headbunes in. But this is the thing

40:54

about and I won't say it again. This

40:56

is the nineteenth time I've said it.

40:58

It's her telling the story. I knows

41:01

the one going. Then he hammered the

41:03

knife and do my skull. So

41:05

there's that part of it where it's a person who

41:07

went through this and came out the other side, came

41:10

out here.

41:10

Okay, okay, oh Jesus.

41:12

Then one last thing. Okay,

41:15

I'm here. You try to pull the knife out. It

41:17

won't come out. So he's shaking

41:20

her head around.

41:21

Your hand movement just now, Okay, he's

41:25

he's trying to get it out.

41:26

He eventually puts his foot on her head

41:28

to pull the knife out. She can.

41:30

She feels all this, but then she starts to go out

41:32

of consciousness.

41:33

Honestly, I'm kind of getting a little woozy

41:36

right now, really like I'm sweating a.

41:37

Little, and yeah, it's bad. It's

41:39

a bad one.

41:42

So she's going in and out of consciousness. She

41:44

doesn't know where he is. She

41:47

looks into the bedroom and he's standing there with

41:49

the and he doesn't have the ninja outfit

41:51

on anymore. And he screams, put your head back down,

41:55

so she stops moving. She's like, and

41:58

he comes and he pulls her wedding rings off.

42:01

So she's like, oh, he's going to kill me. Yeah.

42:03

Sure, she's freezing cold,

42:05

she's lost so much blood.

42:06

But she knows he's going to kill me, so she has

42:09

to do something. So he

42:12

walks away. Once he pulls those rings off, he

42:14

leaves, and she doesn't know where he is, but she decides

42:16

she has to this whole time she's been in the bathroom,

42:18

yeah, she's like, I

42:20

have to get out of here. So she pulls

42:23

herself along the ground out of the bathroom,

42:25

through the bedroom and pushes herself

42:28

down a flight of stairs to get downstairs

42:30

to the phone.

42:31

Oh my god, And.

42:32

She gets to the phone, she

42:34

what drove me insane when I watched this for the first

42:36

time.

42:37

She called her parents. No, but I

42:39

don't know if it's.

42:39

Because it was nineteen eighty six, so maybe

42:41

the nine to one one system wasn't in place.

42:44

Yeah, maybe it was like so rule, or

42:46

maybe her brain just wasn't functioning rightly and

42:48

the only phone number that could come to her was

42:50

her family's like childhood

42:53

home.

42:53

That would make perfect sense. I remember mine still,

42:55

but oh

43:01

you get the area code too?

43:02

Shit, Well, whoever called

43:05

someone? No, don't call that. Can you

43:07

bleep out? We're

43:09

so proud to know our own I don't know that we give

43:11

out our Social Security numbers.

43:14

Okay, So basically she

43:16

goes out of consciousness for a little while. The next time

43:18

she remembers anything, she heard her father screaming.

43:21

He came in with the amts, so

43:23

they all found her kind of together. They load

43:26

her up and she hears two amts

43:28

talking over her about how

43:30

she's not going to make it, and that's

43:33

in her head. She's like, I am too going

43:35

to make it. That's when she like turned

43:37

buck.

43:38

Yeah, girl, it's.

43:38

So awesome, and she's just basically like, this man

43:41

is not going to take my life from me. It is not happening.

43:43

That is amazing. So they

43:47

get her to the hospital. She has so many

43:49

stab wounds, she needs

43:51

over six hundred stitches.

43:53

Oh my god.

43:54

I think in the end she ended up

43:57

she He stabbed her thirty

44:00

times.

44:03

He was eighteen years

44:05

old.

44:05

Troy Wiggley was arrested at the

44:08

bank trying to cash the chest that he

44:10

forced her to write to him. He's

44:12

convicted of aggravated robbery. He's

44:14

sentenced to life in prison.

44:16

Oh thank god.

44:17

Yeah. I

44:19

looked up his name, I looked up her I looked

44:21

up a bunch of stuff to try to find out what that

44:24

was about. Yeah, because it sounds like one of those

44:26

things where if they didn't have evidence

44:29

here or there, they were just trying to get him

44:31

on something that stuck blah blah

44:33

blah. But to me, it's so insane.

44:35

If she's been stabbed multiple times, yea, why

44:38

aggravated robbery is what he actually gets convicted

44:41

on.

44:42

Right, Because attempted

44:44

murder, for some

44:46

reason, isn't treated it as murder.

44:49

It's not murder, right, That's why it's not treated

44:51

as murder. No, but that drives

44:53

me crazy, I know, But it's not. I know, I know

44:55

they have to be two different things.

44:57

I know.

44:57

I mean they just do.

44:59

But so she

45:01

makes a full recovery. It takes her years

45:03

of pain and hard work. She said

45:05

she spent a lot of time in denial about

45:07

what happened to her. She spent months

45:09

crying. Obviously, who

45:12

wouldn't. She had multiple

45:14

surgeries for all of her wounds.

45:17

She developed a lot of stress related illnesses

45:19

that lasted for years because of the trauma.

45:22

Her marriage crumbled, she was left without her

45:24

job or money, but she

45:26

was determined to come out on

45:28

the other side stronger.

45:30

What an amazing woman.

45:31

So she realizes she has to

45:33

get help, So she gets counseling and

45:36

she joins a victim support crew. Amazing,

45:38

and she decides that her

45:40

first goal that she has to set goals

45:42

for herself so she can recover like she has to

45:44

make it a step by step process. So

45:47

her first goal is she's going to release all

45:49

the rage and anger that she has about

45:52

what happened to her, because

45:54

she realizes

45:56

that that's how she's going to get better for herself.

46:00

And then she starts to speak out

46:02

for victims rights and what needs to change

46:05

in what is what she

46:07

calls our offender focused criminal

46:10

justice system. In nineteen

46:12

ninety one, she's appointed

46:15

by then Governor Ann Richards to serve on

46:17

the Texas Board of Criminal Justice and

46:19

she did it for six years.

46:21

Holy shit.

46:21

It was an unpaid position, so

46:24

while she was there, she started

46:26

it and it went from part time to full time, and

46:29

she just started doing all kinds of research

46:31

on the Texas criminal justice

46:33

system, on victims'

46:36

rights, on rehabilitation

46:38

for prisoners as opposed to just punitive

46:41

you know.

46:41

Lock them up and throw with a key.

46:43

In nineteen ninety six, both the Texas

46:45

Corrections Association and the Texas Crime

46:47

Victim Clearinghouse established awards

46:50

in her name to recognize her

46:52

work on behalf of crime victims because

46:56

of her tireless advocacy for rehabilitation

46:58

of offenders and her dedication to the

47:00

victims rights. In nineteen ninety five, a

47:02

five hundred bed female substance

47:05

abuse treatment unit was named after

47:07

her. In nineteen ninety seven, she won

47:09

the National Crime Victim Service Award, the

47:11

highest federal award for service

47:14

to victims. In nineteen nine, she was

47:16

named one of Texas's Women of This Century.

47:18

Holy shit. And in two thousand and one.

47:20

She was the mediator for a Court TV documentary

47:23

called Meeting with a Killer One Family's

47:25

Journey, which was nominated for

47:27

an Emmy in two thousand and two.

47:29

How I why not watch that Court

47:33

TV?

47:33

Maybe it's just old Yeah, yeah,

47:37

And Ellen Halbert is presently well,

47:39

presently at the time of the article that I was reading,

47:41

so it might not be right now, but she is

47:44

the director of the Victim Witness

47:46

Division at the District Attorney's Office

47:48

in Travis County, Texas.

47:49

What an amazing human being. Isn't

47:52

that fucking nuts?

47:53

That?

47:54

Yeah, I'm trying to focus on that

47:56

part instead of the other parts

47:59

because.

47:59

I, yeah, I think that's the point.

48:01

I feel nauseous, like you

48:03

a whole like, because it's so funny.

48:05

How when it's a survivor, I feel like we

48:08

I think we're both in the mindset that like, don't

48:10

get too disgusting and graphic when it's someone

48:13

who's died, But when it's a survivor, you can

48:15

explain everything that happened because they survived.

48:17

That well, because it's her story, right, So it's

48:19

the way she tells, right, and she wants to hold that way,

48:22

tell it.

48:22

The way she does totally, totally, Yeah,

48:24

that's how she wants it to be told.

48:26

Yeah.

48:27

So, Yeah,

48:29

that's insane and amazing and

48:31

what a fucking inspiration and badass

48:35

motherfucker.

48:35

Yeah, she's rad.

48:36

Yeah, Wow, that was

48:38

incredible. Mine

48:41

isn't so good, great, Mine is

48:43

not so positive. I'm

48:47

not going to tell you the name of it because you're gonna fuck oop. You're

48:50

going to know it pretty quickly.

48:52

And uh yeah.

48:55

June twelfth, nineteen seventy seven, nearly

48:58

one hundred and forty Girl Scouts

49:01

arrived at Camp Scott. Here

49:03

we go amazing the Oklahoma Girl

49:05

Scout murders. This is

49:07

so fucking awful. Yeah, and there's a

49:09

lot of stuff I didn't know about it. I think I've kind

49:12

of known the murder part, but didn't

49:14

know what came after it. So they

49:17

arrived at Camp Scott, a sprawling,

49:20

heavily wooded property southeast

49:22

of Locust Grove in northeast Oklahoma,

49:25

and the Girl Scouts have been coming to this

49:28

spot every summer for fifty years,

49:31

three months before camp was supposed to start.

49:33

What just that idea

49:36

fifty years of historical.

49:40

Nine to eleven year olds in the woods. Yeah,

49:43

it just immediately made me go, like, there's somebody

49:45

that knew they came back every year there's somebody

49:47

that knew the knew

49:50

they would be there at that time.

49:51

Yeah, and I went to girl Scout

49:53

Camp in a situation incredibly

49:56

like probably exactly the same setup as

49:58

this in this camp,

50:01

so I can picture exactly what happened.

50:04

Sorry, I just remembered when

50:06

I was doing Remember when I did that casino

50:08

gig with Julian McCullough.

50:11

It was in Oklahoma.

50:12

Oh yeah, the woman who who

50:14

was the booker for that casino.

50:15

Which was the best gig.

50:17

It was so much fun and I'm so sorry I can't remember

50:19

your name off the top.

50:21

I we'll get it.

50:22

Eventually drove

50:25

me by the street

50:27

you turned down to get to this girl's guy,

50:30

which is now a close Yeah.

50:33

Well maybe they turned it into something else. But we

50:35

drove all around where she was like, want me to show it to you?

50:37

And I was like, yes, I do, want you to show it

50:39

to me. But we couldn't. It was like too far. She

50:41

was like, it's basically over there because

50:44

it's the middle of you.

50:45

Know, big flat.

50:46

I think there's like a long walkway. I think that's called

50:48

Cookie Lane. Three months before camp

50:51

was to start, I think they're

50:53

having like all the counselors come and

50:55

learns what they're going to be doing. April ninety

50:57

took me seven. A counselor at Camp Scott

51:00

had found that her tent had been ransacked

51:02

and her doughnuts were stolen, and

51:04

in the donut box and the empty box

51:07

was a note warning that three

51:09

girls would be murdered at the camp

51:11

in the future.

51:12

No. Yeah, I feel like I'd

51:14

never heard that before.

51:15

Yeah, everyone

51:17

wrote it off as a prank until

51:21

so June twelfth, nineteen seventy seven, first

51:23

official night of the two weeks stay

51:25

at Camp Scott, the

51:28

night is a big thunderstorm, so they don't have their usual

51:30

activities. Everyone kind of just hunkers down

51:33

into their tents, so they had like it

51:35

was like the canvas tent material.

51:37

But like a wood floor.

51:39

Yeah, that's actually when I went to

51:41

camp, that's what the tents.

51:42

Yeah, they called habins,

51:44

right that.

51:45

When I went to Girls Hot Camp, it was like that too, And

51:47

you're like shitty cot bed and stuff, yeah,

51:50

with your itchy.

51:51

Fucking uh what's it called

51:54

sleeping bag.

51:55

Yeah, it's all very uncomfortable,

51:57

Like it's fun at first and then you're like, my

52:00

that is way better.

52:00

Yeah, and taking a shower. You're only about thirty second

52:02

showers. It sucks. Yeah.

52:05

There was probably a drought at the time, and

52:07

so they timed the showers and they literally

52:09

shut off thirty seconds. It must have been

52:12

like forty five seconds or something like that. Still,

52:14

Jesus, They're like, we're teaching you how to conserve.

52:16

Water, but it'sing you how to be dirty.

52:18

Yeah.

52:21

I hated it. So

52:23

they hung her down for the night. It has no lights

52:25

in any of the cabins. They

52:27

just have flashlights. So ten

52:30

eight is known as Kiowa and

52:33

in that tent usually it was four girls

52:35

to attend, no counsel counselors

52:37

in any of the tents. The

52:40

three friends are Lori Lee Farmer

52:42

she's eight, Doris Denise

52:44

Milner who's tent, and Michelle

52:46

Goussey who's nine. They're all

52:48

from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, which is a

52:51

suburb of Tulsa and

52:54

Kiowa. Their cabin was located

52:56

the furthest from the camp counselor's

52:58

tents. It's about eighty six

53:01

yards away and it's partially

53:03

obscured by the shower for the camp, so

53:05

it was like the most remote cabin and

53:08

eighty six yards is like almost a football

53:10

field, is it. I didn't know the football

53:12

field is one hundred yards. Yeah, so it's

53:14

like that's so far away it might

53:16

be feet. I heard it was one

53:18

of those things where like in different articles I read different

53:20

things.

53:21

Oh okay, it might be yeah.

53:21

Yeah, that happens all the time where you're reading the exact same

53:23

information. But that happens all the

53:25

time where it's like, is this person's name Jerry

53:28

or James right, but it just changes

53:30

per or someone had read it is like this is

53:32

wrong, and you're like, but I wouldn't

53:35

be you know

53:37

the way those things are like set up to make them

53:39

more like in nature.

53:40

And eighty six feet is still a long way off from

53:42

me responsible, but

53:46

there's probably sixteen year old girls who

53:48

are counselors.

53:49

So it's and you can see like they.

53:51

Have a layout online to show exactly where

53:53

it is and it's absolutely on its

53:55

own.

53:56

So okay.

54:00

So that night it said there's

54:02

a book called in the Camps called The

54:04

Camps Goot Murders by cs Kelly. He

54:07

says that two counselors had been frightened by

54:09

two men at the camp that night, and some

54:11

campers said they saw a man in army boots

54:13

behind a tent.

54:15

There's so much pre shit.

54:18

At one point thirty in the morning, someone

54:20

hears moaning out

54:22

near Camp Kiowa. Everyone's in

54:25

their tent. Carla, a camp

54:27

counselor. She checks out the noise and described

54:29

it as a low guttural moaning, but

54:32

it would stop whenever her flashlight came

54:34

near. Also, around

54:36

two am, the tent flap of Tent

54:39

seven is opened. Three

54:41

of the girls inside are sleeping, but the fourth girl stated

54:43

that she noticed a beam of light moving around

54:45

the interior from outside, with

54:47

a silhouette of a large figure behind

54:50

it, and then she says the figure moved

54:53

off toward Tent number

54:55

eight, which is Kiowa.

54:56

Nora just came back from

54:59

camp. Nine year old niece ten, ten

55:01

year old niece. I mean, this is this is

55:04

this is rough. Can you imagine?

55:05

Okay, well, well, imagine getting

55:07

this call, your sister getting

55:10

this call.

55:10

Don't imagine it. But no, I imagine things like that all the

55:12

time. I know, it's so hard, that's like.

55:14

The isn't that just the standard thing of

55:16

like oh yeah, for a while, I told

55:18

you that, for a while, I couldn't stop doing it. I

55:20

finally had to call my sister and I was like, I

55:23

can't. I just can't stop imagining

55:25

something. But my sister goes, ohyeah, I do that all the time.

55:27

Yeah, I do it all the time. And I was like, oh

55:29

okay, She's just like, do bad. That's

55:31

how it is. Yeah, that's when you love a child. That's what

55:33

happened.

55:33

That's what that's part of it. I get it, so

55:37

all right.

55:38

Moaning sounds are heard throughout the night

55:41

throughout the camp. At at around three

55:43

am, a girl in the Cherokee

55:46

section across the woods heard a scream

55:48

coming from the direction of the Kiowa Cabin

55:51

eight and here it says

55:53

it was located about two city blocks away,

55:56

and she heard moaning. A girl

55:58

in another cabin also heard

56:00

a scream, and the scream the cries,

56:03

she said, sounded like mama, mama,

56:05

someone yelling mama, mama.

56:08

I know.

56:09

The next morning, at six am,

56:11

June thirteenth, the camp counselor's on her way

56:13

to the showers and she stumbles

56:15

upon a horrific scene

56:18

at tent near Tent eight. How

56:20

old she's probably

56:22

six.

56:23

It's a camp counselor.

56:23

Oh sorry, I don't So

56:27

the night before, somewhere between two and

56:29

four in the morning, someone had

56:33

cut his way into the tent.

56:35

Here it gets horrible.

56:36

Yeah, he bludgeons and rapes

56:38

Laurie and Michelle.

56:42

They had been struck and killed in

56:44

the tent while they were sleeping, and

56:47

they had been bounding, and

56:49

then they bound the person bound

56:51

and gagged Doris and took her outside,

56:54

raped and strangled her as well.

56:56

So then the two girls who were in the tent

56:58

are like stuffed into at the bottom of

57:00

their sleeping bags,

57:03

and their sleeping bags

57:06

are pulled to where Doris is on

57:08

a path about one hundred and fifty feet away from

57:10

the tent, So all three girls are

57:12

left together on like a trail. Goosey

57:16

and farmer. Sleeping bags had blood,

57:19

their bodies were inside. They had bloody bed sheets

57:21

that had been used. The killer tried to wipe down the

57:23

blood that was on the floor of

57:25

the cabin, which is so weird. And

57:28

they also found a roll of black duct

57:30

tape and a flashlight the murderer

57:32

had discarded, Like.

57:37

Was his blood in that blood and that's why he was

57:39

trying to clean it up? Who knows?

57:41

Yeah, Yeah, there was bloody

57:43

bed sheets. It

57:46

seemed like after the attacks he tried to cover

57:48

his tracks. Yeah, which almost seems like he was

57:50

panicking. Well almost, then hey, don't

57:53

leave your flashlights. Yeah, it sounds

57:55

like he was panicking, maybe

57:57

can't realize what he had done, tried

58:00

to fix it, you know. Okay,

58:05

So four days later, so

58:07

police come, they you know, they

58:10

fucked. They clean up the scene, and

58:13

four days later, you know, is this

58:15

insane manhunt that starts like the biggest

58:18

man hunt in Oklahoma history. Four

58:20

days later, police find sunglasses

58:22

belonging to a camp Scott counselor and

58:25

a boot print print that matched the

58:27

one found at the scene of the crime in

58:29

a cave near the camp. So

58:32

they find that, and they also find a message

58:34

written on the wall in one of the caves

58:36

that says the killer was here, Bye bye

58:38

fools, and then the date six

58:42

seventeen seventy seven. They

58:44

also find tape, plastic bags,

58:48

plastic from a garbage bag similar to that raptor

58:50

on the flashlight found next to the girls, and a

58:52

newspaper from the same edition as the piece

58:54

discovered in the flashlight

58:56

and left next to the girls. And they also find

58:59

two fox They find two photos

59:01

of women. The photos

59:04

are determined to be from

59:07

the wedding of a prison guard, and

59:10

they're traced back to a man named Jean

59:12

Leroy Hart, who had been working

59:14

at the photo lab in Granite Reformatory

59:17

and had developed the photos of the

59:19

wedding of the prison guard when he

59:21

was serving time for kidnapping and first to

59:24

gate degree rape convictions in nineteen sixty

59:26

six. So

59:28

he had these photos of these women for

59:31

some reason left them behind and they were able

59:33

to trace them back to him.

59:34

Okay, but they so that means he developed

59:37

these pictures because it was his job at

59:40

the prison. Yeah, but those pictures

59:42

were never given to the prison guard.

59:44

Probably made make copies of them for himself.

59:46

Maybe they were two pretty women and he wanted to keep

59:49

the photos of women.

59:50

But it's not the prison guard is in

59:52

the clear.

59:53

Yeah, that's not the prison guard. Yeah, So

59:55

we'll talk about Jean Leroy Hart.

59:57

He's a thirty four year old Cherokee

59:59

Native American. He's five ft

1:00:02

ten weighs about two hundred pounds. He's pretty

1:00:04

built. He's like a thick dude. He's got

1:00:06

black.

1:00:06

Hair, brown eyes.

1:00:07

He's born and raised in Locust Grove, which

1:00:09

is right next to the camp.

1:00:12

He was a high school football star. He was

1:00:14

supposed to He was bright and popular.

1:00:17

One of his teachers said, he just wasn't the kind of

1:00:19

kid you would have thought would have turned out

1:00:21

bad. But he was an immediate

1:00:23

suspect at the time of the murders. He

1:00:25

was on the run from police because he had escaped

1:00:28

jail. In nineteen seventy three,

1:00:31

he was twenty two when he was arrested

1:00:33

and accused of abducting two pregnant

1:00:35

women from a Tulsa club, raping

1:00:38

one of them, and he pleaded guilty and

1:00:40

was sentenced to three concurrent ten year

1:00:42

prison terms, which is ten years.

1:00:44

As we know, three concurrent ten

1:00:46

year terms is ten years ten years

1:00:48

exactly, which is

1:00:52

absurd. He's paroled

1:00:54

after for raping and kidnapping

1:00:57

two pregnant women. He's paroled after

1:00:59

twenty eight months.

1:01:00

Hmmmm hm.

1:01:03

He's arrested again in nineteen sixty nine.

1:01:05

This time he's charged with four counts of first degree

1:01:07

burglary, pleads not guilty. He's

1:01:09

found guilty and for this,

1:01:12

this and his past crimes. Then he's finally

1:01:15

sentenced to a maximum of three hundred

1:01:17

and five years in prison Jesus,

1:01:19

So you know that Judge probably was like a

1:01:22

gas that he got out so quickly for rape

1:01:25

and kind of threw the book at him, maybe

1:01:27

guessing.

1:01:28

Maybe the only problem is that if he was set

1:01:30

up for the first one, then his I

1:01:32

don't think that's the only problem.

1:01:34

Well, I know you don't think you wos Well he pled guilty

1:01:36

to that. I know lots of people that I know.

1:01:38

I know.

1:01:41

So he had grown up a half a mile north of Camp

1:01:43

Scott. There were other suspects,

1:01:45

including a convicted rapist named Bill Stevens.

1:01:48

The couple who knew A couple who knew Stephen said

1:01:50

he borrowed a flashlight that matched the description of the

1:01:52

one used left in the crime scene

1:01:56

a few days before the murder, and he showed

1:01:58

up with what looked like blood on his

1:02:00

boots. He told them he experienced

1:02:02

car trouble in Locust Grove. He

1:02:05

denied everything. He said he hadn't been in the

1:02:07

area, and but a scout

1:02:10

at the camp testified that she had seen a man

1:02:12

who looked like him at the camp,

1:02:16

but they still focused on Heart. The manhunt

1:02:18

would go down as the largest in state history,

1:02:20

took an entire year to catch him.

1:02:23

He was just cave to cave, house

1:02:25

to house on

1:02:28

the run.

1:02:29

So they found him in April nineteen seventy eight.

1:02:31

He'd been hiding out in the area and

1:02:34

each cave released

1:02:36

they each cave had clues and evidence related

1:02:38

to the girl Scout murders, so

1:02:41

they know confirming to

1:02:43

police that he was their man. They also

1:02:45

they found a mirror and a toy pipe, which another

1:02:47

camp counselor testified had been taking from

1:02:50

her tent. He went to trial for the murders

1:02:52

and faced three counts of first degree murder. He

1:02:54

was acquitted after just five

1:02:57

hours of deliberation. So this

1:02:59

whole community of people and so many

1:03:01

people in the community rallied behind him and

1:03:04

thought it was a setup, that these

1:03:06

the evidence had been planted, that

1:03:08

he was a good you know, a good kid.

1:03:11

The of course Cherokee Indians not

1:03:13

of course, but they backed They didn't

1:03:15

they didn't come out as saying they thought he hadn't done

1:03:18

it, but they said they were giving him money for

1:03:20

his defense to

1:03:22

support him because as an American

1:03:25

and Native American, they

1:03:27

didn't think he would get a fair trial unless

1:03:29

he had the money to represent himself,

1:03:32

which obviously is true, but they

1:03:34

said specifically, this isn't We're

1:03:36

not saying we think he's in a center guilty.

1:03:38

They just wanted him to have a fair trial. Exactly, right,

1:03:41

So.

1:03:43

Because probably in that area, right

1:03:45

go to thing is if something

1:03:48

happens, why don't you go look

1:03:50

on the reservation, why don't you go look at a

1:03:52

Native American?

1:03:53

Exactly?

1:03:54

Yeah, And all the other suspects

1:03:56

that they had and that are still around were

1:03:58

white. So they went out. It seemed

1:04:01

like they went after him, but he was

1:04:03

acquitted. Everyone in the courtroom cheered,

1:04:05

which, if you read articles, the three

1:04:08

families of the three killed

1:04:10

girls were just so devastated

1:04:13

when people were cheering that he got off, of course,

1:04:15

you know, and

1:04:19

the jurors ended up saying there were too many loose ends,

1:04:21

too many things didn't add up. One

1:04:23

durer said, none of us knew whether he did it

1:04:26

or didn't. We were shocked that they didn't have more

1:04:28

evidence than what they had, so

1:04:30

they just couldn't convict

1:04:33

him. But because of his previous jail

1:04:35

break in his earlier crimes, he was taken to prison

1:04:37

to serve the remaining three hundred years of

1:04:39

his previous rape and burglary

1:04:41

convictions, so he's taken a prison anyways. Three

1:04:46

weeks later, in nineteen seventy nine, at thirty

1:04:48

five years old, while jogging in the

1:04:50

prison yard, he dies of a heart attack. Some

1:04:55

people think he didn't do it,

1:04:58

or that he didn't

1:05:00

act alone. There's physical evidence

1:05:02

left behind the crime scene that

1:05:05

was recovered during the autopsy that indicates

1:05:07

that two offenders were involved in the crime, including

1:05:09

two different knots being used to tie up the girls,

1:05:12

which I think is obvious. Always kind of a weird

1:05:14

sign, right, and the girls were separated

1:05:16

and died in different manners. Evidence

1:05:19

presented at Heart's trial that

1:05:22

was used to rule him out included a footprint

1:05:24

in the blood of the floor of the cabin that

1:05:27

is a size ten. Heart's feet were closer to eleven

1:05:29

and a half. There's also a fingerprint

1:05:31

on the flashlight found at the scene that wasn't hearts,

1:05:33

which I don't think is that weird.

1:05:36

You know, it's not like one person would have held

1:05:38

that flashlight period.

1:05:41

You know, there could have been a.

1:05:42

Lot in life of the flash right, yeah, exactly.

1:05:46

Then A bunch of DNA tests have been done

1:05:48

on biological evidence from the crime scene, since

1:05:50

the murders. Throughout the years, there's

1:05:53

been nothing conclusive that has come although

1:05:55

in nineteen eighty nine,

1:05:58

so of five aspects of DNA tested

1:06:00

from the scene, three matched

1:06:03

some bodily fluids.

1:06:05

That were taken from heart.

1:06:06

Only one and seven thousand, seven

1:06:09

hundred American Indians would match the samples

1:06:11

of that fluid, but because

1:06:13

there were only three instead of five match that

1:06:16

results were officially deemed inconclusive.

1:06:19

But an analysis of sperm samples

1:06:21

showed that only points zero zero two

1:06:23

percent of the population met the characteristics

1:06:26

contained in the evidence, and heart

1:06:28

was included in those.

1:06:29

Wow.

1:06:30

Yeah, so that's those numbers

1:06:32

are way huger one

1:06:34

in seventy seven thousand.

1:06:36

Right, And if they had that technology

1:06:38

in nineteen seventy nine, maybe he would have been that

1:06:40

would have been enough evidence for the jury. They kind

1:06:42

of went on all circumstantial evidence because

1:06:44

they had to because that's all they had, which

1:06:47

you know, it's almost like if they could

1:06:49

have waited to have you know a lot of times

1:06:51

they'll wait to have more evidence

1:06:53

to bring them to trial.

1:06:55

I don't know, Yeah, but you can't wait years. Yeah,

1:06:57

but he's in prison anyways. Of

1:07:00

the eat step speedy trial. That's true,

1:07:02

and the families wants justice.

1:07:04

Yeah, you can't be like oh yo across her fingers

1:07:06

that good science is coming also because

1:07:08

back then, I think they had no idea

1:07:11

the kind of forensics that we're going to eventually

1:07:14

exist.

1:07:14

I meantimes they're like like in the eighties, I feel

1:07:17

like they are finally like, well, this new

1:07:19

technology is coming out.

1:07:20

A lot of times you hear on like forensic Files, let's

1:07:22

wait.

1:07:22

Until that technology

1:07:24

has you know, every every

1:07:27

year, I feel like there's a new way of testing

1:07:29

some fluid or some stain

1:07:31

that they weren't able to do before to extract

1:07:34

a different strain of DNA. I don't know if I

1:07:36

sound like I don't know what I'm fucking talking about,

1:07:39

but yeah, I mean yeah, pretty

1:07:41

standard, Yeah, not like science.

1:07:44

I think this is what we do.

1:07:46

We're just basically repeating what we watch on

1:07:48

Forensic Files and other shows

1:07:50

that tell us about.

1:07:51

DNA, vague postulating.

1:07:52

And you know what's so interesting is in this trial they

1:07:55

used things that are now discounted,

1:07:58

like hair samples. They found a hair that

1:08:00

they said matched him.

1:08:02

There was another thing that they found that they said

1:08:05

matched him that now wouldn't be admissible as

1:08:07

a fiber probably fibers. Yeah that now would

1:08:09

never be admissible in court. Yeah, so it's

1:08:12

yeah, it's still kind of weird.

1:08:16

Let's see.

1:08:16

Members of Heart's Native American

1:08:19

family also accused the police of going after

1:08:21

Heart because he's a Native American. Many

1:08:24

people said that the sheriff of town

1:08:26

was really vindictive because Heart had made him

1:08:28

look bad for escaping twice. I

1:08:31

just fit and being on the lamb so long. He was a lamb

1:08:33

for four years. Yeah, which makes the sheriff

1:08:35

look really stupid. So he tries to.

1:08:37

Throw the book at him. Wow. And

1:08:39

a former prosecutor.

1:08:43

Tried to turn the killing and Heart's

1:08:45

arrest into a position as a state

1:08:47

Attenney attorney general and

1:08:50

to write a book about it, so for monetary

1:08:52

gain as well. So that's

1:08:54

kind of their proof that he was

1:08:57

railroaded. So after he died, athor

1:08:59

in alreadys didn't pursue that. Many

1:09:01

other suspects after the killings

1:09:04

of and I want to say their names again because you

1:09:06

know they're kind of ignored her.

1:09:08

So Laura Lee Farmer, Doris.

1:09:10

Denise Milner, and Michelle Goosey.

1:09:14

No other suspects were really pursued or arrested.

1:09:19

And then all the parents went on

1:09:21

to do all this. Of course victim's

1:09:23

advocacy. They were all, you know, they all

1:09:25

are interviewed and ended

1:09:28

up being these incredible people and doing good

1:09:30

things afterwards. But when

1:09:33

the sister of Laurie,

1:09:36

when she went back to school after

1:09:39

the murder her sister, two years after and

1:09:42

after he had been acquitted, hardly been

1:09:44

acquitted.

1:09:45

She wrote a school and this is just so sad to me.

1:09:47

She wrote a school paper and in

1:09:49

it she said, one nation under God,

1:09:52

inavisible, with liberty and justice

1:09:54

for all except for my family.

1:09:56

Oh no, I know.

1:09:58

And that's the story of the Oaklah Home, a girl scout

1:10:00

murder. Ask isn't

1:10:03

that sad?

1:10:04

It's so sad these little girls

1:10:08

also. To me, it's just like that

1:10:13

crime. This is all I think about.

1:10:16

Who knows what really happened.

1:10:18

Like the idea that someone hides in caves

1:10:22

when they're on the lamb is the perfect way

1:10:24

to set somebody up to put shit

1:10:26

in a cave, find a cave.

1:10:28

Why would you this is like Jack the Ripper stuff. Why would

1:10:30

you write on the wall? If you did this

1:10:32

thing, you would cover all your tracks

1:10:34

and get the fuck out. Yeah, I'm go writing on the

1:10:36

wall, Bye bye, motherfuckers.

1:10:38

That's just a state putting the date a date,

1:10:41

and like, yeah, and so.

1:10:43

As you were taunting the police, unless

1:10:45

you were taunting the police, or unless the police

1:10:48

were trying to set somebody up to perfectly

1:10:50

match what he'd already done in

1:10:52

that kind of makeing a murderer way, which is

1:10:54

like, we don't like you, we don't like your type.

1:10:56

We're to take care of business.

1:10:57

Yeah, and we've been trying to find you. We don't have any more

1:11:00

budget to put into this, but if you're the

1:11:03

child murderer and rapist, then we

1:11:05

can put all of our resources into finding

1:11:07

you. It's the only problem I was just

1:11:09

gonna say, the only problem that I mean, obviously

1:11:12

the thing that makes me.

1:11:13

Upset about that.

1:11:15

Then if that, if that is

1:11:17

what they're doing, if their agenda turns

1:11:19

from finding the person who did it into getting

1:11:22

the person that has shamed

1:11:24

them or whatever fucking problem there is, then

1:11:27

we still have a person who stabbed

1:11:29

three nine year old girls with a fucking knife

1:11:31

and raped them walking around

1:11:33

the world. Yep, that's the problem to

1:11:36

me.

1:11:36

Yeah, So it's one

1:11:38

of those cases where I don't know if he's guilty

1:11:40

or not, but I could argue either way,

1:11:43

you know that the evidence was planted in

1:11:45

the caves or he was taunting them. You know,

1:11:47

it's either one is plausible,

1:11:49

and then arguing like I hadn't thought about

1:11:51

what you said, which is did

1:11:53

he not commit those rapes? If

1:11:56

he committed those rapes, to me, it's

1:11:58

obvious that he was also call you

1:12:01

know of this crime. And

1:12:03

I also, I'm I'm leaning

1:12:05

more towards him having being

1:12:08

more than one person who committed

1:12:10

those crimes because

1:12:13

of the ropes being different knots,

1:12:15

because of yeah, them being separated

1:12:17

and uh and

1:12:20

being murdered in different ways. You

1:12:22

know, two of the girls were immediately knocked

1:12:25

unconscious and left in the cabin and

1:12:27

one wasn't you know, it's

1:12:29

it's it's.

1:12:30

Weird, it's all different, like amos.

1:12:32

Yeah, And they people argue

1:12:34

that that how

1:12:38

would how would one person be able to handle

1:12:40

these three girls, which I think is a bullshit argument

1:12:43

because two girls were unconscious, but

1:12:45

not only that, we know that

1:12:47

these predators can scare, especially

1:12:50

small girls into obeying them.

1:12:52

Or yes, Richard Speck, yeah there

1:12:54

it was eight. I believe off the top of

1:12:56

my head. And there's nurses, fully grown women

1:12:58

who he got to all stay in a room

1:13:01

while he took them out one by one, raped

1:13:03

and murdered them and they can't

1:13:06

Like the woman who was hiding was

1:13:08

just like, you don't understand it was it was

1:13:10

he had a gun and he kept being

1:13:13

very soothing or whatever. So like that being

1:13:15

able to control people when you are the attacker,

1:13:17

yeah, is. I love when people argue

1:13:19

that shit, we're we're you fucking talking about We're not

1:13:22

sitting Those people weren't sitting on a couch

1:13:24

drinking coffee casually.

1:13:25

They were. They said, if you scream, we're going to kill

1:13:28

your family. Yeah, like, or we're going.

1:13:29

To as simple as that, we if you scram

1:13:32

all, shoot your friend over here, that kind of stuff.

1:13:34

I mean, I hate that argument

1:13:37

so that I think you can't really, But

1:13:39

other little things, like the different kinds of ropes.

1:13:42

It's just.

1:13:44

It just feels like if there's ever a murder that

1:13:46

should have been solved, right, you

1:13:50

know, three ten year old girls at girl scout

1:13:53

camp, they should have fucking figured out.

1:13:55

The best way to figure out who did that.

1:13:57

Well, I feel I know they're also doing more

1:13:59

there can continuing the DNA testing,

1:14:01

so as it does get more advanced,

1:14:03

their.

1:14:04

True case is still open.

1:14:05

Yeah, and they are like sending different kinds

1:14:07

of like the

1:14:09

new swabs they can actually test. They're

1:14:11

still doing that, so there still might be an answer

1:14:13

one day.

1:14:14

Don't you think it's possible? Now?

1:14:17

You know?

1:14:17

I love to Devil's advocate and I

1:14:20

love to go like, what is the thing

1:14:22

that isn't being thought of or something?

1:14:24

Yeah. The idea that he's jogging.

1:14:26

In jail and dies of

1:14:28

a heart attack at age thirty five, yeah,

1:14:31

is interesting to me.

1:14:33

Now it is impossible. And there's some people that have

1:14:35

congenital heart.

1:14:36

Poss what they said, you know, he's got that runs

1:14:38

in his family. He's just really out of shape.

1:14:40

But thirty five definitely then, And why

1:14:42

is he jogging?

1:14:43

Yeah, Oh he's going to You're gonna now you're going to get

1:14:45

it all together once you're fucking in jail. Yeah,

1:14:48

you know what, I got it. I'm going to lose this last

1:14:50

twenty pounds.

1:14:51

That's definitely good argument.

1:14:52

And it's the thing of like if the DNA

1:14:54

does come back to him, which it kind of seems like it did

1:14:57

in these other ways, people are gonna

1:14:59

say, well it was planted, so any

1:15:01

think unless it comes back as someone else

1:15:03

doing it, no one's ever gonna

1:15:06

fully believe that he and conclusively

1:15:08

believe that he was the killer, right,

1:15:10

you know what I mean?

1:15:11

Yeah, But

1:15:15

then hearing that he got acquitted is just

1:15:17

so if you believe

1:15:19

it was him, is so heartbreaking.

1:15:21

And I think his family, the family's all believed it was

1:15:23

him. Of course they did, you know, they want

1:15:25

to state it then.

1:15:27

But also it's that it makes me think of the

1:15:29

Memphis the West Memphis three. Yeah,

1:15:32

when you have the perfect

1:15:35

person who did it, you want

1:15:37

it to be over.

1:15:38

Yeah, you want to be over.

1:15:39

And you also want to show everyone that or

1:15:42

you know, the police force and the FBI

1:15:44

was there every you know, it was a huge man

1:15:46

hunt.

1:15:47

Uh for a year.

1:15:50

You want to show that you have done

1:15:52

your due diligence and you caught the bad

1:15:54

guy. Everyone can stop being

1:15:56

afraid because can you imagine you're for

1:15:59

a year, this person who has no

1:16:01

problem raping and sodomizing

1:16:04

a fucking nine year old is on the loose.

1:16:06

Yeah, in the neighborhood.

1:16:08

Then I you know, you have to look at all the photos of the three

1:16:10

girls or just these sweet baby angel like young

1:16:13

sweethearts, and then I look at the photos

1:16:15

of them with their siblings and it's those poor

1:16:18

you know, I feel so bad for the victim, but the siblings

1:16:21

too, you.

1:16:21

Know the rest of their lives must have been so horrifying.

1:16:26

Yeah, it's not something you ever get

1:16:28

over, especially when you go and

1:16:30

have children and you see your own nine year old daughter

1:16:32

and you know, how can

1:16:35

you imagine someone hurting that person?

1:16:37

What a fucking monster? Yeah.

1:16:41

Yeah, they've got to figure out

1:16:43

a way minority report

1:16:46

style totally to figure out who

1:16:48

these people are conclusively.

1:16:50

Yeah, I feel like that's what I feel

1:16:53

like, instead of making

1:16:55

for profit prisons, maybe

1:16:58

people, it should be like ken, we just actually

1:17:00

focus on so that when these

1:17:02

people exist in society, we figure

1:17:05

out a way to find them and make sure they don't

1:17:07

do this to people.

1:17:07

Well, yeah, we brain scan them, and

1:17:10

that brain scan tells us what they're

1:17:12

capable of, what.

1:17:14

They're lying about.

1:17:16

What even if they're a sociopath, you can still

1:17:18

see that, like what neurons fire when

1:17:20

they're lying. Listen, if

1:17:22

they have a memory of this crime.

1:17:27

If their brains are see through their brains

1:17:30

fish from way.

1:17:31

Down deep in the deepest depths of the oce What

1:17:33

are their brains made of? Are they made of goldfish crackers?

1:17:35

Are they are just a ton of tiny knives

1:17:38

in there?

1:17:39

If there are tiny knives and it's a tiny

1:17:41

murderer, is there a tiny murderer

1:17:44

in the brain controlling it with

1:17:46

controls?

1:17:47

If there is, let's get rid of those people.

1:17:50

Let's put them all on some kind of

1:17:52

leper's island. Great, this

1:17:54

has been a serious waste

1:17:56

of time.

1:17:57

Thanks everybody.

1:17:58

No one has it change

1:18:00

everything, will change nothing.

1:18:03

No, there's lots of people working hard to change things.

1:18:05

I think for sure. We hear from people

1:18:07

all the time that are like, I'm going to fucking

1:18:10

criminology school.

1:18:12

I'm a victim's advocate. Yeah, all

1:18:14

the time.

1:18:14

Yeah, it's very cool, and I think like that.

1:18:17

Yeah, it's that idea that instead

1:18:20

of letting politics get in the way and

1:18:22

money, let's let's catch.

1:18:25

Child murders, let's catch adult murderers.

1:18:27

Let's like, let's catch child

1:18:29

murderers before they child murder.

1:18:31

But then we're getting into some

1:18:33

brilliantictive right. Well, that is what my

1:18:36

minority board is about, right, which

1:18:38

is like, that's the great graphics.

1:18:40

What's the ethnicity about? And Tom Cruise

1:18:42

at his best? Oh for the fucking

1:18:44

downhill. You guys who were younger don't remember

1:18:47

that Tom Cruise was a heart throw.

1:18:49

You don't remember it was twenty ten, seven

1:18:52

years though. Oh my god, that's seven

1:18:55

years ago. Seven years

1:18:57

I know, I know.

1:18:59

I mean, it's time goes by.

1:19:02

I gotta go to work. Okay, that's right. Oh

1:19:05

my god, how is it weird?

1:19:06

This is coming out in two hours? Yes, Stephen,

1:19:08

sorry for the delay. I'm sure we're gonna get.

1:19:11

I'm sure Steven's gonna get and already has gotten

1:19:13

lots of messages.

1:19:14

When we were texting yesterday about is it okay

1:19:16

if we do it in the morning, and Steven's like, yeah, what, it's

1:19:18

going to be late and people get upset, you know, we should

1:19:20

let them know, and then we and

1:19:22

then I said, okay, just tell them it's your fault,

1:19:27

Steven, David, tell him you did

1:19:29

it.

1:19:29

Steven told me.

1:19:31

Elvis can't be out on this one.

1:19:34

I know, where's the kitten so

1:19:37

you can hit it in the face. No,

1:19:40

it's gonna where's that kit? I was gonna make her me out

1:19:42

listen. I love her fucking dottie.

1:19:44

She's an angel baby. Once Elvis

1:19:46

is home.

1:19:46

Good, hold good thoughts in your mind and prayers

1:19:49

for Elvis for his quick

1:19:51

recovery. She can come back and eat cookies

1:19:53

and me out with us soon and

1:19:56

until we see you again, stay sexy

1:19:58

and don't get murder art. Bye

1:20:04

l I